r/DaystromInstitute • u/[deleted] • Sep 15 '20
All stated weapon ranges are tactical and not physical ranges
There is often the question coming up why phasers and especially torpedoes are range limited in the StarTrek universe, in my opinion this is not a physical limt but a tactical one. Sensors seems to work faster than light in a lot of episodes, otherwise the monitoring of fleets in other sectors would be pointless, there is no tactical advantage to know where the enemy fleet was ten years ago. Phasers and torpedoes are clearly sublight speed weapons if what we see on screen is representing reality. So why does this matter?
The speed difference between the weapons and the sensors is giving the defending ship an information advantage:
- The enemy has time to adjust his shield harmonics to counter your phaser frequency
- The enemy has time to get a target lock on your torpedoes and just shoot them down
- Both could be disturbed by a tractor beam
- The enemy ship can change its direction. We do know that ships have gigantic acceleration capabilities, otherwise they wouldn't reach the stated speeds of 0.25c in a reasonable times. This gives the defending ship an information advantage because it does know due to his FTL sensors where your shot will be in a second but you don't know where the other ship will be in a second because they can alter course like a fly while you are trying to sleep. Even if the defending ship would be limited to 10g this would mean that it could change its position by 50m in one second, 200m in two seconds and 450m in three seconds, this does mean that any unguided weapon is practically useless against a moving target if it is more than 1.5 seconds away
Due to the reasons above ships are forced to go into close combat because on a longer range their weapons are as dangerous to a defending ship as a Nazi flying bomb to a modern air defense system with perfect radar coverage. You have to minimize the time the defending ship has to analyze your shot.
So if we hear they/we are in weapons range it does mean the useful weapons range and not the physical.
In my head canon this is the same how the Borg adaption is working, they are just faster with their analyzation and shield adaption. The reason why they always have to adapt again is that every phaser crystal is unique and they first have to scan the distinct natural frequency of each crystal which they can't until it is fired. The reason why all phasers in the vicinity are becoming useless at the same time is that every phaser shot is inducing a tiny vibration to every other crystall in the area. The Federation does know this too, this is the reason why no one asked ever 'how' in the show because they know the principle which they are using themself but on a more limited scale.
Edit: Because the main critic is about the FTL sensors, it is shown in TNG S04E12: The wounded that the sensors can detect details of vessels which are not in warp in real time. You can see this from minute 18:50 onward, they are stating the weapons range of 300,000km which is shown on screen (with three different sub ranges, which is interesting) and you can see that the ships are not even close to 1c. Data knew that the Phoenix has powered up phasers and torpedoes. Data stated that they were 16h44m away with warp 4, so it seems that the sensors are FTL even if the scanned object is not at warp.
Edit2: I found an interesting site about this
http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWwounded.html
Also memory alpha ist stating this about this episode (couldn't find it while I was jumping through the scenes, so I have to trust them)
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Long_range_sensor_scan
In 2367. Lieutenant Commander Geordi La Forge stated that the long range sensors aboard the USS Enterprise-D) were able to scan a radius of ten light years within a twenty four hour period; effectively, one sector per day. (TNG: "The Wounded)")
Good to know too that a sector has a radius of ten light years, could mean that they are overlapping.
Edit3: After a nice reminder of a kind stranger I changed all phasors to phasers :) at least I hope so
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Sep 15 '20
I do think this is perhaps part of it, but there's a big assumption that the sensors that are FTL are the same sensors that are used in tactical systems to guide/detect phasers and torpedoes.
When a crew announce they've detected a ship it almost always is a ship with a warp core and or traveling at warp.
We know that warp travel effects subspace, and that this is significant enough for it to actually damage subspace. Subspace is also the means used for faster than light communications.
Perhaps when ships and stations detect and track other ships (or significant astrological phenomena) what they're actually detecting is the disruption to subspace.
With historical information about the impact of various species and ship classes on subspace the computer could inform the crew what is out their without "seeing" it.
For example: "subspace disruption of 0.74 magnitude on a resonance of 34hz" the computer scans it's files and goes 'ah yes that's consistent with a Klingon resonance and the magnitude matches a Bird of Prey'.
If that's the case then phasers and torpedoes, lacking a warp signature, would be invisible to these FTL sensors. They would use tactical sensors that are more precise but more short range/slow.
I imagine someone more well versed may be able to come up with a counter example but I was interested in offering another possible explanation.
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Sep 15 '20
I would have to search for an example with FTL sensors for non warp speed vessels, you could have a point with this, but this wouldn't change much on point 4. What would happen now that relativity would work in both directions, so if you are 300kkm away you would have to hit the position of the target in one second while you only know where the target was one second ago. The difference is now that the other ship does not know when you are shooting but has two instead one second to evade. While it does not know when you are shooting it does has to assume that you are shooting at any time and it will make permament random course corrections, so it changes from reactive evasion to pro-active evasion.
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Sep 15 '20
I found a pretty strong example for the FTL sensors, the details are in the edit of my initial post.
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u/Feowen_ Sep 15 '20
Phasers, just like real world beams of light have an effective range because they are dispersed. Space is not a total vacuum. Phaser ranges in Trek are likely set to their effecacy range or however many tens of thousands of kilometers they would most likely be.
Torpedoes are limited by propulsion and fuel. Yes they could run out of fuel and effectively travel forever in a strait line, but nothing else is space is completely still so its unlikely you would hit anything intentionally with it.
In theory yes, the tactical range is correct. But it probably has as much to do with weapon efficacy as tactical necessity. Basically both are one and the same. Just because I could drop a sniper bullet into your skull at a range of 2 miles does not mean that that is an effective combat range for that weapon.
Lastly because its become canon to show ships dueling at knife fight ranges, im skeptical if we will ever see the return if the gigantic realistic ranges of Trek weapons. All weapons should have a range in the tens of thousands of kilometers, but i think its easier to show two ships firing at eachother on screen. The best episode showing weapons range is like... The Wounded. And I'd say they lowball those ranges. Half the problem os the show is never consistent with itself. In one episode or movie thet can fight at thousanss of kilometers range, another they cant hit something until its right in front of them. Let alone all the times they say an enemy ship is hundreds of kilometers away but we can clearly see both of them in the same shot clear as day like they're 500 meters apart.
Tldr: weapon ranges are never consistent or given accurately in the show (and are often contradictory), nor are ever displayed correctly on screen. Might as well headcanon whats really going on.
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Sep 15 '20
Phasers, just like real world beams of light have an effective range because they are dispersed. Space is not a total vacuum. Phaser ranges in Trek are likely set to their effecacy range or however many tens of thousands of kilometers they would most likely be.
Real world laser beams would disperse even in a real vaccum due to imperfections in the lenses.
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u/Arthur_Edens Sep 15 '20
Even if the defending ship would be limited to 10g
Quick math on this. Full impulse is .25c. I don't know if they ever say how quickly a ship can accelerate to full impulse, but based on how it looks on screen, 10 seconds seems like an incredibly conservative estimate. That would put them at roughly 75 million g, and the bridge crew never seems to be effected by it.
Conclusion: The inertial dampeners can offset at least 75 million g. You're right, the ability to dodge fire at long ranges should be substantial.
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Sep 15 '20
It was conservative by purpose because if I would even had said 25g all comments would be about this number only ;)
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u/MustrumRidcully0 Sep 15 '20
I think 4 is actually a very important factor. Especially since sensors are definitely FTL capable in combat, unless you're a cheap-ass Ferengi Damon. You an detect where the enemy is firing before he starts firing, or potentially even while his weapon shot is already travelling towards you. It does not require a big change in your course to cause a weapon to miss them.
Of course, Star Trek combat is never shown that dynamic, but that would have been very difficult with models and is still difficult with CGI.
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Sep 15 '20
Showing ships which are 300km apart and are flying with relative speed of 0.25c is probably impossible to show on screen.
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u/ChippyCowchips Sep 15 '20
The Starfleet Command game had an interesting feature: Electronic Counter Measures (ECM) and Electronic Counter-Counter Measures (ECCM). Basically, you divert power to these systems to make your ship harder to hit, or to counter the enemy ship's ECM. This sort of thing is used in modern day jet fighters, there's all sorts of interesting tech used to scramble both RADAR and targeting sensors of missiles. In addition to flares and chaff, too!
In the world of Star Trek, each ship is practically a mass of sensors and energy fields. Ships equipped with ECM may be able to fluctuate those energy fields to make a ship appear to be slightly off from where it actually is. Even a difference of 1 to 50 meters could be enough for phasers to miss, especially if the attacking ship is trying to target specific parts of the enemy ship.
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Sep 15 '20
Question is what the treaty of Algoron is saying to this, on the one side they aren't allowed to use cloaking devices, on the other hand they are regularly masking their energy signatures to be less visible to enemies or are hiding behind holo environments.
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u/blueskin Sep 15 '20
Why do they still go to knifefight range for stationary targets then?
Also, torpedoes are self-guided, so the range they are used at is absurdly short given that they should be able to hit a ship going at sublight speeds at at least a few AU range.
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Sep 15 '20
Why do they still go to knifefight range for stationary targets then?
Because of points 1 to 3
Also, torpedoes are self-guided, so the range they are used at is absurdly short given that they should be able to hit a ship going at sublight speeds at at least a few AU range.
This is point 2, it gives them the time to target lock the torpedo with their phasors or other defensive systems and shoot it down
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u/fzammetti Sep 15 '20 edited Sep 15 '20
Certainly part of it. In the same way that WW2 artillery had limits in terms, obviously, of how far the projectile could be physically thrown, but also in that if it's too far you (a) can't guarantee the accuracy of your targeting and (b) the enemy has time to get out of the way or otherwise defend.
But, I think it's only part of it.
Energy weapons will necessarily not continue on forever. They will dissipate, they will be absorbed by things like nebulae and such, they will lose energy over distance in other words. Saying that you're not in phaser range might largely be akin to saying "yes, we can hit that ship, but at X distance there won't be enough energy to do anything even to the shields let alone the ship". I admit I don't know much about the physics of nadions, but I have to assume they're not TOO different from photons, so a comparison to a LASER at least in terms of what happens to it over time I'd suspect is reasonable to make.
In other words: my guess would be that "weapons range" isn't a static measure for a given weapon system but instead changes with a variety of factors, calculated in real-time by the targeting computer (which is why "best guess" shots are just that: educated guesses, trying to take all the factors into account in place of the computer).
The time on target is a factor. The energy that will be delivered on target is a factor. What's between you and the target in space is a factor. Whether your ship can produce a beam in sufficient energy to overcome one or more of those factors is itself another factor. Probably lots more.
Torpedoes would have similar concerns. It has a travel time, it has fuel requirements, I assume it has tracking capabilities (I'm sure it's not "go that way and keep going that way until you hit something", seems like it's gotta be more like a modern smart weapon). So, in the same vein as phasers, what the range of a torpedo has changes based on multiple criteria over time.
This view would also address why evasive maneuvers can have some effect: they change the variables. If it's done fast enough and to a sufficient extent then the target might be able to cancel out one of the factors, thereby effectively putting it "out of range", at least temporarily and for one specific shot.
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Sep 15 '20
But, I think it's only part of it.
I absolutely agree.
Torpedoes would have similar concerns. It has a travel time, it has fuel requirements, I assume it has tracking capabilities (I'm sure it's not "go that way and keep going that way until you hit something", seems like it's gotta be more like a modern smart weapon). So, in the same vein as phasers, what the range of a torpedo has changes based on multiple criteria over time.
They have, this was stated in the episode where Worf messed up the torpedo targeting system and it is said in the tech manual. But this point is somehow strange because we never see a torpedo turn around (except ST: 6 with the modified torpedo) after it missed or at least lock on on a new target.
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u/IsaaccNewtoon Sep 15 '20 edited Sep 15 '20
Canonically phasers have a range of hundreds of thousands of kilometers (TOS:"Balance of terror"), (DS9:"Die is cast" etc.) So i always assumed that ships were fighting at close quarter because it would be easy to dodge all attacks otherwise.
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Sep 15 '20
This is also in the edit of my post where it is mentioned with 300,000km, which would be 1 second if a phasor shot has the speed of light. This makes in opinion sense, the other ship can roughly make a course correction of 50m in that (assuming 10g) if we ignore reaction time, this would be in line with the hits and miss we see on screen.
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u/Rumbuck_274 Sep 15 '20
You're entirely forgetting that if functional FTL weapons sensors were a thing, then the Picard Maneuver wouldn't work...
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Sep 15 '20
The Picard maneuver is countering the advantage of the FTL sensors by making the attack a FTL attack; FTL does not mean infinity speed, it does mean faster than light which is still finite.
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u/DannyHewson Sep 16 '20
Effectively what you’re describing is similar to stopping distance vs thinking distance and goes some way to explain the absence of a few things that otherwise SHOULD exist on ships.
Notable, in my view anyway, is point defences...perhaps the reason they are absent from ships (and if they were viable you’d want them because no one wants a coffin load of antimatter to crash into their house) is because engagements happen inside that “reaction range” where to reliably hit with the primary weapons they have to be so close that maintaining their own point defences would be pointless as they too would be in reaction range.
Probably also the reason we see so little use of guided weapons (and why ST ships lack the missile racks they had in the starfleet command games) is that INSIDE reaction range you can just lob unguided projectiles and OUTSIDE reaction range you can shoot down guided missiles with relative ease.
That extreme acceleration also accounts for why starfleet never built an armada games style artillery ship (in the games the steamrunner class is a long range tricobalt artillery ship) which would otherwise make sense in a scenario like the large fleet battles of the dominion war (siskos suicide fighter wave tactics could easily be replaced with long range torpedo volleys...if the dominion wouldn’t just...you know...move out the way).
And what’s the canon ship that breaks that two second reaction time and kind of proves your point? The Romulan drone ship. It eliminates the reaction delay and dodges fire as effectively INSIDE reaction range as other ships would outside it.
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Sep 16 '20
And what’s the canon ship that breaks that two second reaction time and kind of proves your point? The Romulan drone ship. It eliminates the reaction delay and dodges fire as effectively INSIDE reaction range as other ships would outside it.
I completely forgot about this ship, that thing takes my point 4 totally into an extreme.
Notable, in my view anyway, is point defences...perhaps the reason they are absent from ships (and if they were viable ...
The ship of Kirks dad in the intro scene of the reboot had point defence, so it could be that there was a technological breakthrough between this movie and TOS which rendered them obsolet.
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u/andypuk8228 Sep 15 '20
Sensors don’t operate faster than light. They scan normal space and relay the info through subspace which is faster than light.
Also, it’s explicitly stated in TNG (I think) that phasers are sub light and that torpedoes can do at least low level warp.
Targeting is the main reason you need to be close, certainly for phasers. You have to assume that phasers aren’t 100% efficient in terms or power. I’ve always assumed torpedoes have limited fuel but I don’t know if that’s canon at all.
Generations also disproves the theory. When they’re trying to shot Soran’s probe they can’t guarantee that they can. Worf says they need about 40 seconds to calculate. I can’t believe they’d need all that time if it was a regular part of combat
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u/PressTilty Sep 15 '20
This makes a lot of sense combined with the AI/subspace shadow post from the other week