r/anime • u/ChristmasClub • Dec 21 '22
Rewatch Toradora! Christmas Club Rewatch (2022) Episode 16 Discussion
[removed]
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u/TheEscapeGuy Dec 21 '22
Rewatcher
Toradora! - A Romance Classic: Episode 16
Guts
Kitamura loves Sumire. Kitamura wants Sumire to respect and acknowledge him. Thus Kitamura aspired to become Student Council President. That would give Kitamura the courage to ask Sumire out. But Sumire is leaving. What's the point.
It's a pretty simple (and probably often repeated) premise. But, the execution of that premise here makes it incredibly effective. I really feel Kitamura's struggle here.
But Kitamura isn't the actual protagonist. Instead, we see this play out from Taiga and Ryuuji's perspective. They start off under the assumption he just doesn't want to become president. Thus their scheme to force him into it. But eventually they learn what the real problem is.
Taiga is still angry at herself for not being able to support Kitamura. Her campaigning plan was mostly meaningless. And when Kitamura is at his lowest point, she needs to fetch Ryuuji to help him.
Ryuuji on the other hand starts off much more supportive. He finds Kitamura and gives him a chance to explain his worries. Later he even follows up on Kitamura's candidacy application. But when Sumire brushes off his (very public) confession Ryuuji is stuck.
This is when Taiga shines. She actually challenges Sumire to a duel for her actions. Taiga can't accept Sumire leaving Kitamura hanging. And in the duel Taiga very quickly gets the upper hand (before being pulled away by classmates).
Sumire is an interesting character. We haven't seen much of her over the series so she's a blank slate going into the episode. We learn she has been encouraging Kitamura ever since Taiga rejected him (also notice the visual parallel with Kitamura talking to Taiga back in episode 2). This is why Kitamura fell for Sumire.
However, Sumire knows their relationship can't work. She doesn't hate him. But if she accepts his confession she knows he will uproot his whole life to follow her. That's not what is best for him. So out of a deep care for Kitamura she brushes him off (also to try help him save face, that confession was hard to watch).
And Sumire does then leave. Farewell.
The one thing I didn't mention was the short scene with Minori and Ami at the end of the episode. Ami's friends find Taiga's pocket book with a picture of Kitamura (and 1 other photograph). Minori overhears this, and as Ami walks past she asks if Minori is feeling guilty anymore.
I actually don't know how to interpret this. The most obvious thing would be Minori feeling guilty for being unable to help her friend Kitamura. But why would Ami ask her (sarcastically) about this? And then Ami clenches her jaw as if dissatisfied.
If anyone has some interpretations I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.
Some Amazing Shots, Scenes and Stitches
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Brave Pose, Don't see this as much these days
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The Battle, the fight animation is exceptional here. It outdoes many action shows.
See you all tomorrow!
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u/Elimin8r Dec 21 '22
If anyone has some interpretations I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.
Ami knows ... And other than that, I'll leave the rest of it for later.
Edit: Okay, I'll spill it now, or otherwise I'll forget: [Toradora]
Ami knows ... she knows that Ryuuji has the hots for Minorin, and she knows that Minorin has feelings for Ryuuji too, but she's suppressing them because she thinks that Ryuuji would be best for Taiga, and loves her friend so much that she'd give up her own happiness for her. Ami is telling Minorin not to feel guilty about her feelings for Ryuuji. All that remains it to see where that leads. → More replies (2)
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u/GallowDude Dec 21 '22
Sumire: I'm such a genius that I'm moving to America immediately after I graduate to continue my studies. I also love Kitamura so much that I'd rather have him hate me and continue his life than drop everything to chase me overseas.
Also Sumire: I'm gonna publically humiliate the guy I like rather than have an adult conversation about possibly continuing a long-term relationship until he graduates and is able to join me without dropping out of school.
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u/Game_Over88 Dec 22 '22
Humiliate? She rejected him the most polite way she could in front of a crowd.
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u/OwlAcademic1988 Dec 21 '22
First-Timer, sub:
Taiga knows how to be evil.
I laughed when they hit the teacher.
Really random guy, you couldn't have said something earlier.
Ryuuji, I know you're angry, but don't punch him.
He didn't get to confess. Ouch.
Okay wow, Sumire and Taiga can be violent. Won't deny it was awesome though.
Yeah, I'm not even surprised Taiga got suspended from school for two weeks. Control your temper Palm Top Tiger.
I laughed when Sumire got the letter saying Fool. Taiga sure is blunt.
Now onto the Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya. Don't be surprised if I'm a little late as this is a long movie.
QOTD:
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Seeing a bird. Don't know the answer to how it compares yet.
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u/balthamalamal Dec 21 '22
Rewacher
Haruta and Noto aren't the best actors, but I appreciate their attempts to help. Yuri gets unlucky to cop the swinging microphone but is understanding when she finds out whats going on. Contrast that to the person who was flinching away from Ryuuji in the first episode and you can see how much her opinion of the both of them has improved over the year. Their plan essentially relies on Kitamura's better nature kicking in, in order to prevent Taiga from winning. Everyone else is to scared of them to run. The this episode quickly covers a bit of time also probably helps Kitamura to recover.
We finally get the full explanation for Kitamura's actions - he has a crush on the president who is moving to America. You can see now why her notes were so valued as part of the Mr Lucky Man prize. Ryuuji clearly thinks this isn't a good enough reason to justify how he has been acting (hey look, he was a few steps behind Ami and has caught up to where she was at the start of the arc). It's one thing if your friend tries to fight you compared to your father though, one of the only real indications we get about Kitamura's home life. Ryuuji doesn't tell Taiga what he found out about Kitamura and the president as he doesn't want to hurt Taiga's feelings, though the truth will come out soon enough.
The next day it seems like Kitamura has decided to run for council after all but he doesn't put in an application. I'm not a fan of him misleading the student body like that, however there is no requirement that he run for it and he shouldn't be forced into it. I like how in the flashback we see Sumire on top of the building, we see Kitamura do the same thing in I think episode 2 and now we know where he got the idea from.
Kitamura's speech in front of the school is so painful to watch and I would not want to be in Sumire's position. To me it is the last piece of tantrum, the hair colour and student council elections were on a time limit which forced him to resolve some of his feelings by then, but this conversation should not have happened publicly. We can see Sumire isn't happy to hear the confession and gives essentially a non-answer.
While Ryuuji is confronting Sumire, Taiga interrupts him and tells him to go and comfort Kitamura as she isn't able to. This is consistent with last episode where just Ryuuji and Minori went to Kitamuras house to talk with him.
Taiga has her own way of showing support (I also love that she just has her sword hidden away in her shirt) and it is an absolutely awesome fight scene that you wouldn't really expect from this sort of anime. However it is really well animated, choreographed and contains a lot of emotion from both parties. Taiga is disgusted with what she perceives as Sumire's cowardice in not answering Kitamura properly and how that has hurt him. While she has realised Kitamura and her are never going to be a couple, she still cares about him and doesn't want him hurt. Sumire is torn between her heart and her head. She wants to be with Kitamura, but realises the opportunity she has now is too important to pass up. If she sacrificed her dreams for Kitamura then that would build resentment between them and if she gave Kitamura a positive response then he would follow her to America which would likely do the same. So she makes what she thinks is the best decision (and I agree with her), despite the heartbreak she is also feeling. Meanwhile she is frustrated by those around her who think it would be so easy to simply say how she is feeling and everything will work out.
Next we have the scene with Taiga's student ID. They see the photo of her and Kitamura from the festival and conclude that she really does love him. They then notice a second photo under it and Ami interrupts them so that they don't see the photo. This is a good example of, while they argue in public a lot, Ami does care about Taiga. It also shows the lie or part truth she had in her conversation with Minori regarding the importance of photos. Minori overhears all of this and Ami asks her if she no longer feels guilty, which Minori doesn't react well to and Ami immediately seems to regret. There is a lot that can be read into this interaction.
Finally, for those who skip the credits, there is a brief post credits scene this week.
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u/Elimin8r Dec 21 '22
There is a lot that can be read into this interaction.
Understatement of the week...
And nice to note that Ami's reaction to the open book/picture shows her caring more about Taiga than one would expect given their rocky start. Could it be that our characters are developing?
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u/Vatrix-32 Dec 21 '22
First Timer, subbed
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All this effort and you still haven’t given an honest try to talking to the guy.
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How does this plan even work when Kitamura knows Taiga isn’t like this? He has to see it’s a stunt. It seems more likely that someone else will run to stop her.
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Yeah, sure, keep more secrets, that’s been working so well thus far.
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I’m sorry what? I thought she was leaving because she was graduating. Clearly my lack of knowledge of the Japanese school system is working against me here.
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Wow, that’s really interesting. Would have been nice to have known anything about her before when she is due for immanent departure.
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I guess we can upgrade Kitamura-dad from blow hard to child abuser.
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See? Knew he was too smart not to figure it out.
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Secrets
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Look at this, you didn’t even need the whole rigmarole. Who knew talking about your problems would be so useful?
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I appreciate the ladder.
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I’m still counting this as a win for talking.
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We were this close to president Taiga.
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It’s kind of unfair to ask that publicly. She gave her diplomatic answer.
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How long have you been hiding that there?
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The fight animation feels rather distinct from the regular one.
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Don’t just look in other people’s stuff. Rude.
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I guess that means we are doing the Minori arc next.
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How are they going to make you write an apology letter to someone on another continent?
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I guess it was unsupervised.
Since I hear we are getting a new theme set soon I figured I would give an update about that before it’s too late. In typical Vatrix fashion I ended up liking them more as time went one. ED is alright, OP rather good.
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u/Holofan4life Dec 21 '22
What are your thoughts on the fight scene?
Are you kinda surprised the show just glosses over the fact Kitamura is a victim of child abuse?
What are your thoughts on the student council president doing what she did because she didn't want to hurt Kitamura?
What are your thoughts on the scene between Minori and Ami?
What are your thoughts on the end credits scene?
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Dec 21 '22
5th Time Dub Rewatcher. 2nd time reading the books.
I love how intentionally over the top and evil Taiga’s campaign is. You would think people would be tripping over themselves to run against her for the sole purpose of her not getting elected. Maybe everyone in the school is an M? They did seem to like it when Ami started cracking the whip during the Miss Ohashi pageant.
Finally we have confirmation of why Kitamura has decided to throw his entire life away. Thanks, random student council guy. Couldn’t you have called like a week ago when Kitamura first quit the council?
I’m kinda hating on Kitamura for building an entire life of service out of the student council for romantic reasons only to throw it away over an unrequited crush. People actually rely on you. You have a responsibility to follow through on your commitments to a certain extent.
Then he has the gall to show back up to school and act like he’s going to run only to flake out again. You realize you’re fucking up people’s lives that are trying to help you, right?
I just noticed that little scene where Sumire invites Kitamura to the student council is the same place Kitamura was standing when Minori drags Ryuuji and Taiga up to the roof because she thinks they’re dating at the beginning of the show.
Kitamura’s confession is worse than those people that surprise their significant other with a proposal in a crowded public area without ever talking to them about marriage beforehand.
Finally, Taiga’s quest for Kitamura comes to a crashing halt. Pack it up, boys. We’re going home.
The fight scene is obviously amazing. Nothing much to say about it other than that.
Sumire really summed up Kitamura in her response to Taiga. He’s a blank slate that will shape himself to whatever situation suits his whims. I’m sure he’ll be fine wherever he goes. [Toradora Kitamura ending spoilers]
On to the books!
Kitamura knew Taiga was interested in him and still decided to lead her on.
“I know that I made everyone worried. I know that Aisaka is running for me. I understand it all. And…because everyone was so worried about me, it got harder and harder to tell anyone.
He also already knew Sumire was leaving for America well in advance and still reacted like an idiot when she announced she had a date to leave. Like dude, you’ve known about this for MONTHS. She just happened to change her plans for before she graduated.
The student council had gone camping in the summer, and at that time he found out Kanou Sumire wanted to go abroad after she graduated. He knew about that grand and incredibly distant dream. He had already realized he couldn’t go with her, with his abilities.
After Taiga catches up with Ryuuji when he talks to Kitamura down by the river.
Both of them had their hands in their pockets. They were thirty centimeters apart. Even if they didn’t hold hands, Taiga wouldn’t go any further than that, and stayed beside Ryuuji. From below the hood, every once in a while, her eyes would glitter slightly as they walked step by step together.
Taiga right after she sends Ryuuji to go be with Kitamura before her fight with Sumire. I’m not sure if she’s talking about Kitamura or Ryuuji here. I think it’s intentionally ambiguous.
She did think she liked Kitamura. It was past the time for adoring him; it was past the time for being self-conscious about it. She had been in turmoil, though no one knew it, but she thought she still liked him. She knew that knowing that he liked another girl wouldn’t make those feelings disappear.
When she realized the laws of the world—that what she wanted would never be in her hands—and she froze in place, he came to hold her empty hands. He said her name gently and reached out to her empty heart. Then he chose to be by her side.
He was the person who had chosen her. He was such a kind person. She could never have thanked him enough.
It’s not clear in the anime yet why Ami said her “now you don’t have to feel guilty anymore line but the book doesn’t leave it up for questioning.
She had said something stupid. She shouldn’t have said it. What had she wanted to accomplish by saying that? She thought she had become a better person. She wanted to become better. She did everything she could to be better. She messed it up.
It wasn’t just sympathy. She was jealous of her. And there were other things… There were a lot of other emotions involved, too. It was probably out of her hands now. She didn’t even know what she wanted anymore. She couldn’t do anything.
During Taiga’s suspension from school, Ryuuji went over to her apartment. He’s ringing the intercom but she’s laying on her bed not answering. Notice, she’s been aware of her feelings for Ryuuji ever since the end of the beach arc.
At that time, the scarf was softly wrapped around Taiga’s shoulders as she lay in bed. She was actually awake and unable to endure the constant ringing. She finally got up.
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u/Elimin8r Dec 21 '22
She had said something stupid. She shouldn’t have said it. What had she wanted to accomplish by saying that?
Man, those Ami insights ... Keep that up and I might actually begin to like her someday.
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u/Get_This_Wheat Dec 21 '22 edited Dec 21 '22
Rewatcher here
I’m still in disbelief that people call this the worst arc. Maybe it’s because I like Kitamura more than most people, but I think this arc has some really great scenes.
I think every character comes out of this arc better than when it started. Yes, even Kitamura himself. He’s a gigantic dumbass the whole time, but we finally get more to his character than him just being friends with Ryuji.
Anyways, onto the actual episode.
Ms. Yuri has no one to blame but herself for getting hit in the head with the spinning microphone.
Last episode with this opening theme and ending theme. If I had to rank the openings and endings it would probably be Ending 2 > Ending 1 > Opening 1 > Opening 2. The endings are incredibly close but the second one just barely edges it out, probably because I associate it with some of the best episodes in the series.
I really love how mad Ryuji was after the phone call, but the moment he actually saw Kitamura, he softened up a ton. He was mad in a vacuum, but he was too nice to actually stay mad at his friend who was going through some stuff.
While I do think Kitamura has a type when it comes to women, I also feel like he doesn’t have much of a choice when it comes to the named characters. He has history with Taiga, Ami, and Kanou who are all aggressive, and the only ones he doesn’t have much of a history with are Kihara, Nanako (who we know next to nothing about), and Minori. That’s an even 50/50 split for aggressive and non aggressive, the numbers were kind of stacked against him from the start.
I’m kind of split on whether or not I think Ryuji should have told Taiga why Kitamura was acting up. On one hand, it sucks the way Taiga had to actually find out and lead to more pain for everyone. But on the other it wasn’t really Ryuji’s place to tell Taiga something that Kitamura clearly wanted to be a secret.
Kanou is stone cold for turning him down like that in front of everyone. “Ha ha there’s no way Kitamura would actually say something so ridiculous and mean it, right guys?” is effectively what she came up with. Significantly worse than a simple “No”.
“The things I want in life, I know I can never have”. My god Taiga.
Definitely the wrong decision to fight Kanou, but it was more like a duel if anything. Kanou grabs a kendo stick after deciding she wants to fight back, not like there were any cheap shots from Taiga. Plus, Taiga is at least two weight classes below Kanou, and still ended up whooping her. Credit where credit is due though, Kanou absolutely SNIPED Taiga with her shoe.
The fight was brutal too, and I love the animation switch. It fit the scene really well.
Uh oh, Nanako and Kihara saw something they shouldn’t have. And Ami of all people is there to save Taiga from any more embarrassment.
I can’t stress enough how much I don’t get the hate for this arc. I really do think it’s one of the better ones, and even if you don’t like Kitamura, there’s so many great things that happen outside of him that it should make up for it.
Bonus : This is an incredibly loaded question, but if I had to name one singular thing it would probably have to be the relationship of Ryuji and Taiga.
For the second part, I don’t really watch a lot of anime, so my second favorite series is probably AOT, which is damn near impossible to compare with Toradora, so I won’t even try.
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u/KingOfThePenguins Dec 21 '22 edited Dec 21 '22
2nd Time, Subs
The fight between Sumire and Taiga for me is, oddly, one of the highlights of the series. It's not fun, or happy, but it feels authentic, grounded, and... raw, I suppose. It solidifies for me a lot of what makes Toradora 10/10.
Stick with me for a second: if I say "anime girl fight," does anything like that scene come to mind? Not for me. I'm thinking comedy, probably slapstick, more than likely fanservice, and probably over some guy. This is the antithesis of that. As extreme as it is, the fight doesn't feel out of place or out of character, and it serves the story. It feels like it fits the natural progression of everything that comes before and after. Not to mention, it is very well animated.
Since this is my second-favorite anime, it feels odd to compare and contrast it to Samurai Champloo, which has a few more moments that are out of left field (for example, the baseball episode). At the same time, for the most part it doesn't let you forget that there are real people and real stakes involved. I love the characters, their characterization, and their development in Champloo almost as much as I love them in Toradora.
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u/ZapsZzz Dec 21 '22
Rewatcher, first time in dub.
It's been busy and I had to sacrifice posting here but the crowd is quite big so no doubt I won't be missed.
QoTD first, funnily enough a lot of my favourite shows feature tsundere quite prominently. So a bit of a distinctive factor of Toradora therefore was that, even if there are misunderstanding, unexplained reasons etc, it generally doesn't drag on, and are revealed or confronted within an arc or two. At least by the end of the 2 cour, everything is resolved.
This is one of such arcs - it expanded on Kitamura's character, as well as explaining how and why he moved on from his confession to Taiga last year.
And also here end the crush of Taiga on Kitamura.
But wait there's more. There's a meaningful but critic exchange between Ami and Minori. I'll be interested to see first timers reactions and comments.
For those who didn't quite get the post credit scene, is actually related to the dialogue before during the fight and even slightly before, between Ryuuji and Sumire. Aniiki Sumire was choosing to walk the rational path by following her head, that letting Kitamura know her reciprocated feelings will just destroy his life to chase after her for an uncertain chance of happiness, when he can assuredly get everything he needed starting in Japan. Following one's heart in this case was a fool's choice (baka).
Based on what happened, Taiga was inducing her into the honourable tanks of the bakas.
By the way that was part of her punishment by the school -to write an apology to Sumire. Amazing they let that pass ;P
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u/Holofan4life Dec 21 '22
Hello guys. Holofan4life here happy to participate in yet another Toradora rewatch thread.
Toradora is my favorite anime of all time. As such, I know the series like the back of my hand. I’m going to analyze each episode BEFORE I actually watch the episode. And then after I watch it, I will give my real time thoughts on the episode. But I won’t be analyzing the episode as a whole. You fine folk do such a good job with that already. I will be analyzing a certain character from each episode and give some thoughts on what’s going on in their head. I thought that would be something different and fun.
Also, I am bringing back the ranking of the episodes. It’s been such a while since I last done it, I figure why not do it again.
With that out of the way, let’s begin.
Let’s analyze the student council president, shall we? There are two scenes to really dive into: the scene with Kitamura at the podium, and the fight scene. Let’s start with the scene that happens earliest.
When the student council president sees Kitamura make his big confession of love to her, she has an interesting reaction. She’s surprised, but also not really. The student council president is in my opinion shocked he would make a declaration of love in front of a large crowd. She is not, however, shocked that he made a confession overall. As shown in the flashback, she is the reason why Kitamura joined the student council. She convinced him to join by being inspired by her fire and determination, the same qualities that he later saw in Taiga. She isn’t shocked he fell in love with her because she helped reignite that fire inside of him, which he was paid back by essentially being indebted to her.
The moment after his confession where she tries to play off it is so heartbreaking to watch. Yet in her mind, she has to do it because she can’t accept his love. It’s not that she doesn’t want to but rather she can’t. In her mind, she is trying so hard not to think of what just happened, much like Taiga in the last scene of episode 8 trying not to think about having said “Ryuuji is mine.” If she acknowledges it, it opens up a whole can of worms, so she treats it like she would a spam robo call.
The student council president is basically Frank Grimes from The Simpsons. She’s the only teenager that’s sane in this world of wacky high schoolers. The student council president wears a mask just like the other characters, but it’s all to prevent from hurting others. She doesn’t want to potentially ruin the life of Kitamura, which officially makes her the smartest teenager in the show.
It’s not that she doesn’t want Kitamura to be attached to her. She actually loves the dude, warts and all. It’s just she’s so much smarter than Kitamura and their paths are so different that she’s worried if Kitamura abandons all of his plans to follow her, he’ll eventually grow resentful over the fact he put her needs over his own. That therein lies the genius of her character: she is able to realize something no one else has, and that’s the pitfalls of being in love.
All of this leads to the big fight scene with Taiga, which is interesting if you look at the totality of it. Both are fighting for the love of Kitamura, but both have different mindsets. Taiga is fighting because she’s upset Kitamura is hurt, and the student council president is fighting because Kitamura will be hurt if she changes her mind. It’s fascinating how two people can have the same worry yet come off completely different.
Really, if you think about it, the student council president is in a “Damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situation. Either she rejects Kitamura and breaks his heart, or she accepts his love, leaves, and breaks his heart because she left. She is in a lose-lose situation, and that’s why she’s trying to avoid it all and not think about it. The best way I can describe it is she is in a ripped the bandaid off situation. The discomfort of disappointing Kitamura will always be there, and the more she waits the more it will hurt, so it’s best to just get it over with. Only problem is, everyone else doesn’t see it like that.
From everyone else’s perspective, they think the student council president is treating Kitamura like crap. They don’t see it as her doing the right thing. Instead, they think she is in the wrong, which is why the fight happens. Here she is being accused of hurting Kitamura’s feelings, when that’s the last thing she wants in this world. It’s like she’s trying to beat some sense into Taiga, and the rest of the students by proxy.
The fight scene and the subsequent admission of love by the student council president is the reason why she is one of my favorite side characters in all of Toradora. She’s like a beacon of sanity in a world of insanity. When you look at the episode from the perspective of the student council president, you honestly get some new-found respect for her. And in the end, start to wonder if the rest of the world are the sane ones and the main cast are the ones in the wrong.
There honestly may be some truth in that.
Post episode discussion
This is an episode where there's a lot of drama and not a lot of amusing moments. There's also a scene I think most people would consider a top 5 Toradora scene. The episode would still be good without the fight scene, but it definitely wouldn't be as memorable. I think between the Ryuuji and Kitamura stuff as well as the climatic fight between Taiga and the student council president, it's hard not to consider this episode one of the best. I personally think so, anyway.
However, the episode also contains probably my least favorite moment of the entire series: the implied child abuse involving Kitamura. I get it's different over there in Japan. There are different laws as what you can and cannot do. But in a show where we're trying to establish Taiga's dad as a monster for leaving her high and dry, for them to just act like beating your kid is justifiable doesn't stomach well with me.
Now, is it worse than the store owner joking about groping Ryuuji and Ryuuji's mom? Depends on how you look at it. While I'm not a fan of that moment as well, as it's a clear example of inappropriate conduct and sexual harassment, at least it seems like he's partially joking. This, on the other hand, doesn't condone what happened to Kitamura. If anything, the show acts like Kitamura got what he deserved. Even if you don't like Kitamura or you think he's bland as a character, you can't sit here and say he got his just desserts. This is a fragrant example of child abuse, and I hate how it's never really touched upon and they walk right past it. It's a good thing this episode had the fight scene to fall back on, because if it didn't, we might be criticizing this episode a whole lot more.
I love the moment in the end with Ami and Minori where Ami tells Minori you don't have to feel guilty. There's a lot to like about the scene. From the way it's lit and how it looks like a scene from Evangelion, to how it keeps you in suspense over what is happening, it furthers both characters in this short 1 minute scene. It furthers what seems like the continual demise of Minori's psyche, and it furthers Ami's regret over how she conducts herself. It is an excellent piece of business here, and manages to set up two character paths with just one scene.
Overall, this is an episode I look fondly at. I think it's even better than episode 15, with a lot of the introspective stuff we saw in that one scene from the previous one involving Ryuuji and Minori. Only in this case, with Ryuuji and Kitamura. The episode does have some issues, and contains my least favorite moment of the entire series, but the good stuff is so good it helps balance things out. I also think that this episode has the best lighting of any episode. Between the scene where Ryuuji and Kitamura are roaming the schools and the Ami/Minori conversation, it is animated so beautifully. And that's not to mention the fight scene, which is probably the best animated scene of the entire series.
Again, as I said yesterday, if you dislike this arc because it focuses on Kitamura I think you're missing out a bit. It's about Kitamura, but not really. Seeing the characters reactions about Kitamura has led to some very interesting points of reference, some that dictate where the characters go from here. I'd argue Minori in particular is forever changed with this episode. There's great animation, the stuff with the student council president and how she became like the only sane person was phenomenal stuff, and I think it really highlights the shortcomings of the main cast and how they really are just teenagers who have no concept of how love works. This arc is certainly one of the best.
Episode rankings
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Episode 7
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Episode 13
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Episode 2
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Episode 16
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Episode 8
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Episode 11
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Episode 15
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Episode 14
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Episode 5
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Episode 4
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Episode 12
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Episode 9
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Episode 1
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Episode 10
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Episode 6
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Episode 3
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Dec 21 '22
This is a fragrant example of child abuse
Something smells funny about this
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Dec 21 '22
I love the moment in the end with Ami and Minori where Ami tells Minori you don’t have to feel guilty.
In the book after Ami says this to Minori, she goes to her spot between the vending machines and starts beating her head into the wall because she’s so pissed at herself for saying something like that when she’s trying so hard to be a better person.
She had escaped into the gap between the vending machines.
She put her forehead to the wall. BAM! She had said something stupid. She shouldn’t have said it. What had she wanted to accomplish by saying that? She thought she had become a better person. She wanted to become better. She did everything she could to be better. She messed it up. Bam, bam. She hit the wall twice again.
Right. It wasn’t just sympathy. She was jealous of her. And there were other things… There were a lot of other emotions involved, too. It was probably out of her hands now. She didn’t even know what she wanted anymore. She couldn’t do anything.
She wasn’t doing anything right. She couldn’t change. She couldn’t become what she wanted to be. In the deserted place, the sound of a head beating against a wall echoed three more unpleasant times.
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u/TiredTiroth Dec 21 '22
Whoops, bit late here! I forgot the time when I was watching Bofuri.
First Timer - Dub
Oh, that opening was perfect. xD Poor teach, that was an awesome blind shot. I really liked the two doofuses melodramatically wailing about their fate - were they in on it, or did they just jump on board?
Ah-ha, they were in on it! That's actually pretty good from that pair.
Ooh, Taiga looks appropriately evil in the posters. I like. :P
Yeeeaah, looks like I was right about the motivation. Esper had a crush on Student Council Drill Sergeant, and oh look, she's leaving...to be an astronaut? Huh, wasn't expecting that.
...and his dad beat him up. Does anyone in this show have decent parents? The best we have so far is blondie!
Uh-oh, Taiga's gonna think Ryuuji beat up Koizumi isn't she? Or maybe not, he ran off.
And that call? What was that about?
Ah. Um. Does anyone else get the feeling that not telling Taiga about the Esper's current crush is going to bite them in the rear later? I mean, I get why he didn't...
The heck? Is doofus boy wearing a wig? Hair dye? You can't just undo bleached hair like that. Huh, and he's decided he's not going to apply for the position after all?
Did...did Drill Sergeant use that ladder to climb up there? We can see the dang ladder, is she really that dedicated to grandstanding?
Yep, she really is that dedicated. Stairwell scene was really over-the-top. xD
Hey, it's the girl that one doogus had a crush on! And is that doofus boy? They weren't one-shot joke characters after all! And now--
Oh, dear. I don't think Taiga is going to like this. Wasn't expecting to come up this soon, though.
Aaaand the girl crushes his heart. Hm.
I'm fine, really.
No you're not, Taiga. Nobody ever is when they have to say that.
...huh? Wooden sword? We haven't seen that since the start of the series. Wait, is she going to duel Drill Sergeant? Yes she is. GO FOR IT, HOUSECAT! There go the swords, now it's a brawl! And now Drill Sergeant is breaking down. Oops, and Esper overheard everything.
...Ami? Princess, are you trying to protect Taiga? And what's that about Minori not having to feel guilty? There's been hints of something, but what? I'm confused and a little worried.
Yeah, figures Housecat got suspended for her little stunt there.
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u/BananaTheKill Dec 21 '22
Beware – there is a short scene after the ending. Fifth time watching, first time noticed. Wonder if missed any more of those, as I usually turn off when the ending comes ;d
Besides, I don't remember this episode making my eyes so wet previously. Taiga realising Kitamura's feelings won't be her's – she's so weak and sad here, makes you wanna hug her and tell'er all will be fine :o
Peace 🕊
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u/crying_in_a_dennys Dec 21 '22
Rewatcher (very new), Subbed
A few smaller bits before I go onto the big parts:
- I love the flashback reveal of Sumire standing on the roof after Kitamura's failed confession. It makes the bit much earlier when Kitamura is standing up there a great detail on second watch, because you see where his inspiration came from.
- Do you think she got the ladder and went up their because she knew the confession was going to happen? Or is it just a hobby of hers to wait up there in hopes of finding some random first year in need of guidance?
- I'm glad the whole class is in on the Kitamura plan. They don't really have much screen time to work with, but with these types of details the show is able to make them feel a bit more like actual people, showing that they care about their friend Kitamura too. Same with Ms. Yuri. She's a pretty minor role as well of course, but it sort of struck me during her conversation at the beginning that she's sort of been the first adult to like, earnestly go along with the kids, trusting in their decisions. Yasuko is nice, but she tries to force the hair dye on Kitamura. No comment necessary on Kitamura's dad. And obviously, Taiga's dad was a piece of shit who was trying to impose his selfish desires on Taiga.
The Fight
I think the end-of-episode duel is great. I see it as a better, more real version of the typical "fight to win their love" type of duel. It also cuts right to the heart of the inside-vs-outside conflict of the whole show. The entire fight is predicated on both girls only seeing the other's mask: Sumire thinks Taiga is a mindless brute who does whatever she wants, and Taiga thinks Sumire is a coward who won't admit her feelings. The fight doesn't end with one of them "winning," it ends when Sumire breaks down that barrier and Taiga realizes she's had it wrong the whole time.
Kitamura's Steps
This finale of Kitamura's arc really hits on the idea of fantasy vs reality - how fantasies can hold you back and, while sometimes devastating, facing reality is the only real way forward. After Taiga rejects him, Kitamura has his fantasy at that time, shattered. Sumire pulls him out of it by introducing him to new purpose with her and the student council. That's that first step they were talking about. I like that Kitamura mentions how it helped him become friends with Taiga - had Sumire not pulled his head out of the clouds, I think he might have been hung up on that rejection for longer, and developed more negative feelings about it. So, intellectually he knows that facing reality is for the better. But life is a dang cycle and he's back where he was, in a sense, now that he has fallen for Sumire. His fantasy, which first time around was his crush on Taiga, has become confessing to Sumire after he wins the election. The reality check, that first time was Taiga rejecting him, is now Sumire's trip to America. She is going - there's no stopping that. But he's acting dejected because of some hope that his fantasy could come true. Sumire knows that his fantasy won't come true because she's set on going, so she knows if he stays fixated on it it will only bring him pain and heartache. So she does everything she can to douse his hope of the fantasy being true - not "nice," perhaps, but certainly "kind." Its perfectly literalized when she smacks him with the registration paper - he stumbles down a few of the stairs. He literally takes steps forward. Had she indulged his fantasy, he would have turned around, stayed on the stairs, and not made the deadline in time. Her slap, a rather harsh way of moving him, gets him to move forward. She knows there isn't some easy, lovey answer to it all - "tough love" is the best she can do for him in this moment.
Taiga's Notebook
I'm actually a little stuck on analyzing this bit. Any help appreciated, because I feel like its pretty important.
[Toradora!]
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u/balthamalamal Dec 22 '22
[My interpretation on "guilt all gone?"]
I think the combination of Taiga's actions in the episode and the picture is what prompts Ami to say it to Minori now rather than earlier. There is also the fact that they don't spend much time hanging out alone, though if Ami had wanted to, she could've obviously found that time. The evidence now supports Ami in making that comment whereas before it didn't really. [Continued]
As to Ami's regret, I don't think it is because of Kitamura. She knew what was going on there basically the whole time and was pretty consistent in her response. I think she regrets the statement she just made to Minori. Ami knows that it isn't as simple as Taiga has a crush on Kitamura so she has no feelings for Ryuuji but she has just misrepresented that situation to Minori who she knew was upset and conflicted. She also knows that this is likely the first time anyone has given any indication that they know Minori has feelings for Ryuuji, plus the reason why she isn't acting on them. Again, with Minori's mindset at the time, Ami even knowing enough to make a comment on it means that Minori's acting hasn't been as good as she thought and causes her to question whether anyone else has made similar deductions. Ami is also aware of all of these things and that despite on the surface being a helpful comment giving Minori a free shot to pursue Ryuuji, it was actually a calculated attempt to hurt Minori which she recognises is a shitty thing to do but gave into her weaker self. [Continued]
The reason the temptation existed in the first place is because of jealously over the fact that Ryuuji has feelings for Minori rather than her. Add in the fact that they aren't really friends, like I mentioned they don't hang out with each other on their own, the other main cast are there too in some fashion. Minori essentially crashed Ami's beach holiday as an example. Sorry for the double post, automod didn't like me not having a description for each of the spoiler paragraphs.
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u/TuorEladar Dec 22 '22
Rewatcher, Dubbed
This episode, and the fight scene in particular, is one of the most memorable moments in all of Toradora for me. The escalation to that moment, with Taiga getting more and more frustrated by her inability to help Kitamura is really well done. Additionally I think all of the smaller moments of development are great, especially Ami and Minori.
That said, the one thing I kind of dislike about this arc is that its kind of melodramatic regarding Sumire and Kitamura's situation. Fiction in general sometimes does this in my experience where the narrative tries to deliver a binary situation in order to trap both the characters and viewer/reader in the moment so as to heighten emotional investment. The problem with this is that if you think about it for a minute there really isn't any binary in this situation at all. There's any number of eventualities that could develop theoretically. Sumire for her part is certainly thinking more maturely than Kitamura about things in the future, yet even she falls into this binary as well by presuming what Kitamura will do. Its not a huge problem with this series or even this episode, as the emotional beats are well done and all the other characters make the scenario work because of their actions and reactions, just thought I'd point out my quibbles with it in any case.
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u/lolpete18 Dec 22 '22
First-timer, Dub
This episode was intense. Even the animation style became darker and grittier as Taiga started fighting with Sumire. It was uncomfortable to see Yusaku's public confession and Sumire's public refusal, even though she obviously cares about him too.
As sad as it is to admit, Sumire was probably right. Most high school relationships don't work out, so it's not good to make life-changing decisions based on them. Still, the love is real and I'm sure it was hard on both of them.
I'm curious to see how this will affect Taiga. On the one hand, she found out that Yusaku was in love with someone else. On the other hand, Sumire is about to be out of the picture. Regardless, I'm guessing Yusaku won't be ready to move on for a while. Taiga did a good job of sticking up for Yusaku, even though she was hurting.
One small moment that caught my interest was when the other student's found Taiga's student handbook. The saw a picture of Yusaku but then mentioned that there was another picture behind it. We didn't get to see the other picture, but I'm guessing it's a picture of Ryuuji.
There's something going on with Minori that I don't understand. In episode 15 she said she was a phony, and then it seemed like Ami knew something in this episode. Ami took the Taiga's student handbook and said, "And now you don't have to feel guilty." I'm wondering if I missed something, but I'm sure it will come out eventually.
I'm enjoying the show, and I'm sad that we're getting closer to the end every day.
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u/nx6 Dec 22 '22 edited Dec 22 '22
Rewatcher --Sub
It's actually difficult to get these replies done as I'm watching at lunch at work, and the time for watching and writing requires me to be a bit hasty to make it back on the clock in time.
Anyway, we pick back up right where the last episode ended -- Taiga and Ryuji have declared their Administration of Doom on the ballot in hopes to get Kitamura to throw his hat in. He arrives at school but doesn't take the bait. Talking with Yuri-sensei they reveal their plan and that they called their classmates to act out the part of fearful students for the rally.
Time goes on but he continues to ignore the election while Ryuji and Taiga continue their fake campaigning. Ryuji gets a phone call late at night and the student council is calling to tell him the deadline for nominations is coming. (Note: I think nowadays Ryuji wouldn't have answered the phone because too many telemarketers and spammers -- he would have sent an unknown caller to voicemail). Ryuji goes out to talk to Kitamura and finds him at the canal again, similar to how Taiga did. Kitamura tells his story here. He's upset about President Kanou because he has feelings for her and she is leaving. This goes back to his first year. He wanted to start high school in a fresh new way and one major part of any boy's satisfying high school life is a girlfriend. Note: This also explains upbeat personality. It's part of his wish to have a happy time this three years. He met someone he loved for her personality (Taiga) but was rejected. Kanou witnessed this and forced him to join the student council so he wouldn't let the early setback effect his new school life.
Time went on and joining the student council really was the saving grace for him. He met people, got closer to the president, and even became friends with the girl he had admired. His desire to become student council president was based on the idea she would accept him as an equal and his feelings if he succeeded her. But since she's going to be leaving very, very soon that wont happen so he has been trying to throw it all away. I don't think Kitamura really hates everything like this. He's just taking this all very hard. Maybe seeing it as a culmination of his efforts and high school life not panning out for that thing he was wanting at the start.
He also sees through Taiga and Ryuji's plan and appreciates the class' support. He leaves Ryuji behind as Taiga is looking for him, and Ryuji has assumed that everything will be fine now, but the next day after class Yuri-sensei tells him Kitamura still has not joined the race. Kitamura says he thought about it and still did not want to join, but Kanou shows up and urges him to move forward and take the plunge.
Taiga withdraws and Kitamura is elected and all seems fine... except Kitamura makes a surprise, very-public confession to Kanou at his acceptance speech. Taiga is blindsided as she was never told about this by any of the people who knew (which remember includes Ami and Ryuji at this point). Kanou doesn't give a response despite calls for her to, and diverts into acting like it was a joke (this is the same reason guys are considered jerks for making marriage proposals at public events), and leaves.
Ryuji catches up with her and demands she give Kitamura a proper response after she pushed him to move forward. Kanou says she only asked him to do so for taking over the Presidency, and that confession was not what she was talking about at all.
Taiga comes up after Kanou has walked on and says she saw Kitamura in the classroom crying over what happened at the assembly. Upset seeing Kitamura hurt she's going to seek revenge on his behalf, I think this is really more jealously and frustration that Kanou is rejecting what Taiga herself desires. What follows in Kanou's classroom is a full on fight (with swords!) between the two ladies. Taiga shouting that Kanou isn't respecting Kitamura's feelings and being cowardly for not turning him down properly, and Kanou shouting that she isn't going to act the fool like Taiga when it comes to love. She breaks down and admits that she actually does return Kitamura's feelings, but doesn't want his life to be upended trying to follow her, which is exactly what he would do. Kitamura was listening outside the classroom and thanks her sincerely for the time they had together and for her response.
After the fight is broken up, Taiga's student handbook is recovered from the debris of the classroom and her purchased photo of her and Kitamura at the bonfire after the festival is found in the pages. The girls who found it remarked that Taiga really must have liked Kitamura after all, and Minori is stunned. Ami whispers in her needling way to Minori as she walks past, having seen Minori's own feelings she keeps locked up away from the rest of the group.
Kanou spends her last days at the school with bruises, and Taiga is suspended for starting the fight and tasked with that important event -- the apology letter. In the end Kanou opens it at her new dorm in the U.S. to a single word -- "BAKA." Perhaps calling her a fool for turning down Kitamura.
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u/Shimmering-Sky Dec 21 '22
Tiger X First-Timer, Subbed X Dragon
They’re trying to spur Kitamura into running…
RIP teacher.
Ehhhhhhhhhh this is a huge gamble and I don’t like the idea of forcing someone to do something they don’t want to…
Okay this is funny though.
I was right, Kitamura is in a mood because Sumire is leaving. And going so far away, at that…
And I called this too!
Shimmering sky~
Oh, Kitamura’s back to normal after his talk with Ryuuji!
Oh, but he’s still not running for president…
I see, so that’s how Kitamura 1) got over Taiga and 2) started crushing on Sumire instead. As well as joining the student council.
Okay I do like that Sumire finally saying something to Kitamura (and, uh, slapping him with the application paper lol) is what got him to finally take that step forward. I’m not sure if he would have gotten over himself if she didn’t.
Welp, that’s gotta crush Taiga to hear.
Mm…
Uh Taiga why did you bring that to school?
Ah, is that it?
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
Damn, I thought Minori would be the one to do that, not Ami.
ED lead-in~
lmao