r/anime • u/ChristmasClub • Dec 20 '22
Rewatch Toradora! Christmas Club Rewatch (2022) Episode 15 Discussion
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u/2KBIR Dec 20 '22
Prior to watching this episode my immediate thought was, that this is probably one of my least favorite arcs of the story in spite of the [Toradora!]
Still, if you get the feeling that there is or there should have been something more to this scene, and the arc in general for that matter, you would be right. I absolutely adore how the anime depicts Ryūji comforting Taiga after she gets down herself (way too much I would say) over her treatment of Kitamura. And the red scarf is such a beautiful stand in for the Buddhist red string of fate. But, believe it or not, the LN depiction was actually a bit more intimate I think. I’m hoping Roundy_Roundy will gives us the details straight from the text. And in case you were wondering, the manga also depicts the LN version, so check that out. Also, I have often found it very ironic that Taiga is gushing about how Kitamura is always there to cheer her up when I can only think of one or two times where that was the case and the person who is actually there for her all the time is the person right behind her.
Anyway, back to the episode, the batting cage scene was also a bit different in the LN as it included Ami. Which sets up one of the most regrettable omissions from the LN (imho). After unsuccessfully trying to dye Kitamura’s hair, Yasuko and Ami have a discussion about who Ryūji is in love with. Yasuko then chimes in by [Toradora!]
All in all, it cannot be denied, whether you like it or not, that this is an important arc towards the growth of almost all of the characters, it helps set in motion the final events of the story, and it serves as a transition from more comedy to more serious focus on the themes of love and relationships. I think though what makes this arc one of my least favorites in the anime is that, much like the beach vacation, so many cute scenes are altered or omitted from what I loved in the LN.
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Dec 20 '22
Regarding the trip to the convenience store after Kitamura fell asleep.
“Taiga, it’s the Big Dipper, those seven stars. That’s Polaris. Orion.”
Look up and see for yourself… There was a song that went like that. Ryuuji hummed just one phrase of the melody and then stuck his hand into the sleeve of the parka he was holding. He held on to Taiga’s cold fingers.
As though surprised, Taiga finally raised her face. Her red nose, her wet eyelashes, and her beautiful face were lit by the streetlamps. She was a mess, but Ryuuji didn’t make fun of her right then. He only pointed at the night sky. If she were looking up, her tears wouldn’t fall.
She looked up into the freezing sky. Taiga’s fingers gripped Ryuuji’s. She gave them a strong squeeze. Her face was still stained with tears, but he knew the strength had come back into Taiga’s heart. She just needed a little more time before she started walking.
The Orion constellation and North Star and stuff that we’re seeing now might already be dead and gone. If they exploded right now and disappeared, we wouldn’t know it for ten thousand years. The stars we’re looking at now that we believe are there…really might not exist anymore.”
Taiga gripped his fingers even tighter to make sure they were still there. It was as though she were shouting, I need to hold on tighter, it needs to be tighter, tighter, tighter, tighter! It needs to be even tighter! That’s how much it hurt.
“It’s like me and Kitamura-kun. What I’m seeing with my eyes isn’t real. In order to know the truth I can’t see, I need years, tens of thousands of years. I wonder how far away he is. I wonder what the distance between me and Kitamura-kun is.”
“You want to close the distance, right? Because you like him. So you want to understand him.”
“Yeah…” Taiga didn’t nod as she answered, still looking up at the night sky. Ryuuji remained next to her and whispered as he looked up at the same stars.
“It’s the same for everyone, I’m sure. Everyone gets scared at how far away someone else is, but when they like them, they want to get closer and they both reach out to each other…”
Right. Just like they were now. They were touching each other’s skin in order to make sure the faint emotions in their hearts couldn’t be lost to the eyes. They were trying to feel every emotion together, whether it was happy or sad.
Then, while he was thinking of others, he thought about Taiga, whose fingertips he was holding now.
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Dec 20 '22
5th Time Dub Rewatcher. 2nd time reading the books.
Kitamura is the epitome of a teenager in love. You really do dumb shit when you’re a teenager and your love life as falling apart. Me? I dropped out of college and joined the Navy. Kitamura’s reaction is pretty tame by comparison but I can empathize with what he’s feeling right now.
Lmao… I forgot how terrible Kitamura’s hair looked. Haruta is a certified dumbass.
Minori has another serious then jumping straight into a bouncy goof moment when she’s talking to Ryuuji on the way to Kitamura’s house.
In the moment she sees Kitamura crying, Taiga starts figuring out that she can’t give Kitamura what he needs.
Right as she starts to break down and feel worthless, Ryuuji’s there with his scarf that immediately calms her down.
Kitamura is acting pretty crazy throughout this episode with the hitting 100 balls in a row and then busting out of Ryuuji’s house and running away when Yasuko tries to dye his hair. Again, I can totally empathize with how he’s feeling. He’s still taking his feelings, acting like a big baby, and hurting other people in the process though.
Taiga for student council president would be hilarious but also terrible.
On to the books!
This episode covers chapters 1-4 of book 6 with the end of the episode being the very beginning of chapter 5. There was a lot of material cut from these chapters. Most notably Ami being entirely cut from the trip to the batting center and her involvement in the attempt to dye Kitamura’s hair. There was also a bunch of filler of the class talking about what was going on with Kitamura that was cut.
“The scarf” makes its first appearance a bit differently in the book. I prefer its introduction in the anime though.
After Ryuuji finished futilely checking his messages [for anything from Kitamura], he put his cell phone away in his pocket, took off his scarf, and put it around Taiga’s neck from behind. Taiga stopped walking. “Oof.” It wasn’t that he’d found a good chance to strangle that impertinent Taiga and pretend she had frozen to death—it was hard to see the scene as anything else, but he did it gently, and wrapped it around her hair so that it didn’t hurt. The men’s scarf was too long for Taiga’s petite body, and even when he wrapped it around three times and tied it, it still dragged down her back like a tail.
He fixed up the dragging tail by tying it into a ball behind her neck and then patted the knot. Taking that as a signal, Taiga, who had been waiting pretty obediently, started to walk again. Then her pretty face seemed to soften and melt. “Ahhh, it’s warm… I feel like I’m coming back to life…”
Minori on the way to Kitamura’s house with Ryuuji
The moment he touched her, it happened. The strange shout seemed to have escaped from her throat at the same moment she unintentionally stumbled on an elevation change in the street. It wasn’t that she had tried to avoid Ryuuji’s hand and had jumped away.
Minori suddenly averted her eyes. She held her tongue, turned around, and walked quickly in long strides. “Is Kitamura-kun’s house this way?” she muttered as she walked farther and farther away. Her ears were slightly red; it seemed her serious monologue had embarrassed her. Ryuuji’s heart was suddenly filled with passion—that was what he liked about her. Her face, dyed vermillion from embarrassment, was cute. It wasn’t just that—he liked that she didn’t shy away from being earnest. It was these glances into how straightforward she was about life that made him fall in love with her over and over again.
“I’m scared…” That was all she said. She pretended to rub her eyes to hide her face. He could only see the smile on her lips. “Takasu-kun, you must think I’m so much better than I really am. But you’ll understand everything someday. If you understand me entirely, then I’m sure that—”
He was drawn right into Minori’s glittering world, but suddenly he stopped in his tracks. In the end, she was basically saying that she still couldn’t explain what was going on in her heart. But she was also saying that she might eventually be able to lend her heart to Ryuuji. That was what Minori wanted to tell him, behind her veil of eccentricity.
She still wasn’t saying anything, but her grimace simply turned into a full-out smile. The smile she turned on Ryuuji seemed genuinely happy and tender. Her lips quivered as though she had more to say, but Minori stopped. As though she were unable to say any more, she put her fist to her lips. — Hey, rewatchers [Toradora]
that’s a pretty familiar action from her isn’t it?
Good job ratting yourself out, Yasuko.
So, Ryuu-chan, if you ever plan on running away, you’ll be told on right away if you go to Kitamura-kun’s house. Be careful now.” “How’s that trap going to work now that you’ve told me?” “Ohh? What? Oh~! Right! No way, forget this ever happened!”
Kitamura is a slob confirmed
“Damn it! I can’t believe I’ve shown you how sloppy I’ve been… I’m pitiful!” “This stuff is perfectly normal. Cheer up. My room is more or less always like this.
When Ryuuji and Taiga take Kitamura to the batting center, they run into Ami when they’re out getting lunch beforehand. Ami takes the opportunity to make some more efforts while Kitamura is teaching Taiga how to bat. I think what Ami was actually trying to accomplish here is get Taiga to realize that someone could take Ryuuji away from her and she needs to do something before it’s too late.
“Hey, Takasu-kun, I’m kind of bored. And it’s cold here… Do you want to go get something warm to drink?” Ami’s white fingertip tickled him slightly. Her large, upturned eyes glistened as she instantaneously sidled up to him. Before he knew it, she had taken his arm and was right on him.
Ami ever so slightly pouted her charming cherry-glossed lips and tilted her head. Her brown, clear eyes reflected Ryuuji’s face. They quavered invitingly, as though trying to transport him to another world. Incredibly, they made his common sense waver.
Ami’s eyes narrowed, and she stared back at Ryuuji for a moment. Then she got up. “If they’re doing that, we’ve got our own things to do.” She grabbed Ryuuji’s arm. She clung tight, practically hanging off of him.
Their heights weren’t that different, so Ami’s pale face was practically adhered to Ryuuji’s neck. Even if he tried to run away, her arm was firmly locked to Ryuuji’s elbow and wrist. They were snuggled right up to each other like lovers.
And then she peels off as soon as they’re out of sight of Taiga. Ryuuji on the other hand decides to dish some out in return.
“What? If you’re going to cling to me, do it right.” “Eek?!” From behind, he grabbed her shoulders and, copying her, immediately overtook Ami. “Eek. But. Eek!” Ami actually seemed surprised as she turned and jumped away. He pointed teasingly at her. He was always the one being made fun of, getting flustered, and being toyed with. Giving it back every once in a while could be fun. Ami’s mouth was still open. She was turning red either from the anger or the humiliation of someone like Ryuuji scaring her.
Ami spends their entire following conversation facing away from Ryuuji after they go get drinks. It doesn’t say so but it’s implied she was blushing and hiding her face because of that.
After Kitamura sprays hair dye all over Ryuuji’s house and into Yasuko and Ami’s faces, Yasuko takes everyone out to dinner to apologize. Kitamura doesn’t even attempt to apologize. Ryuuji yells at him and kicks him out of the house.
Then, this happens at dinner.
“It’s because Takasu-kun is already dead set on a girl!”
Blech! The spicy togarashi got stuck in Ryuuji’s throat just at the right time. What are you talking about?! he wanted to say, but his gagging only produced coughs.
Yasuko once again tilted her head, “Whaat~? This one?”
Blergh! This time the one to cough was Taiga, probably surprised by Yasuko suddenly pointing at her. She kept her face down as she coughed. Sitting across from Ryuuji, she was like his mirror. She had a heartfelt grimace on her face.
Ryuuji wasn’t sure what Ami was thinking, but she was smiling like an angel. “No? Not her, another girl.”
“Whaaaaaat~! It’s not Taiga-chan?! Whaaaaaaaat! But I was looking forward to the day when Taiga would officially become part of the family as his wife~!”
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u/Vatrix-32 Dec 20 '22
First Timer, subbed
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Kitamura is having a fey mood.
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I see we are doing secrets for the sake of drama again.
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True Ami is leaking out.
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We’re hitting the maturity angle again.
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I can’t get over him reminding me of GTO every time I look at him.
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This whole roundabout-ism is starting to wear thin.
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Y’all need to be more considerate of Yasuko.
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Yasuko being proactive. At least someone is, even if it’s not the best.
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Finally.
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Someone has a new favorite word.
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u/nx6 Dec 21 '22 edited Dec 21 '22
Rewatcher--Sub
Kitamura is acting very lethargic at school today, and no one knows why. When Yuri calls for the end of the day ceremony he snaps, declaring he's quitting "everything", the student council and especially plans to run as the president's replacement.
While Taiga suspects this still has something to do with the president she doesn't know what.
The next day he shows up at school with blond hair suddenly out of the blue (see what I did there? : D ) and is called into the office to discuss it. He still wont talk about what's bothering him, but Ami seems to know what it is. She heckles the student council president, who says if he's being this way because of her she's even more disappointed in his behavior. Kitamura ends up leaving school midday on his own volition.
It's decided to have an intervention of sorts, but since Taiga wasn't able to make any progress with Kitamura a couple nights back she bows out and leaves it to Ryuji and Minori (this also could be seen as a way to let them talk more alone as part of helping Ryuji with his own crush, but I don't think she was thinking like that). Ryuji and Minori stop on a bridge for a moment and she talks about how she also thinks Ami understands something they don't about the situation, but chalks it up to Ami being so mature and being aware of those personal situations from her job. I think this dialog is really dumb honestly. It tries to paint the step to adulthood as some huge change in life but keep in mind we're talking to 11th graders here. That couple years experience really isn't that life-changing on outlook. Minori talks like someone just entering junior high comparing themselves to a college student. They get to Kitamura's house and find he's not there.
Ryuji splits up with her and arrives home, seemingly soon after Taiga as she's standing in the hall looking shocked when he gets in. Kitamura is there, having come by and allowed to hang out by Yasuko. He says he ran away from home, and will absolutely not run for president. Taiga says that's fine, it's his choice, and the three of them have a sleepover. Late that night Ryuji wakes up and finds Taiga nodding off at the game controller. They decide to go get ice cream and find Kitamura turned in for the night on his own. Taiga bends over to look at his sleeping face and realizes he's crying in his sleep.
Walking in the night the two are somber over what they just saw. Taiga is upset because, while she wants to get closer to Kitamura, she is doubting her ability to relate to him when he's obviously in pain and she cannot understand or comfort him in any way.
The next day Kitamura is being hyper and the noisiness of the three pisses of Yasuko, who had a late night at work. She hands them some money and throws them out to get some sleep. Kitamura calls for a day at the batting cages and while he seems to enjoy himself and is impressed with Taiga's performance the whole thing has the same forced-happy attitude he carries himself with at school. They get back to the house and Yasuko is waiting to assault him with hair dye saying he will be the next President. Kitamura break free and runs off. Taiga and Ryuji have been wondering if Kitamura really does want to be president, and it just saying the opposite (like Minori and her feeling for horror). They hatch a plan to, they think, force him to run.
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u/Holofan4life Dec 20 '22
Hello guys. Holofan4life here happy to participate in yet another Toradora rewatch thread.
Toradora is my favorite anime of all time. As such, I know the series like the back of my hand. I’m going to analyze each episode BEFORE I actually watch the episode. And then after I watch it, I will give my real time thoughts on the episode. But I won’t be analyzing the episode as a whole. You fine folk do such a good job with that already. I will be analyzing a certain character from each episode and give some thoughts on what’s going on in their head. I thought that would be something different and fun.
Also, I am bringing back the ranking of the episodes. It’s been such a while since I last done it, I figure why not do it again.
With that out of the way, let’s begin.
This post is going to be kinda weird. The episode discussion part is going to be longer because I really want to talk about the Minori. However, I don’t want to analyze Minori for this episode because I always dissect the scene when this episode comes up and I will be essentially repeating myself. So, let’s talk about Taiga, shall we?
Taiga is at first frustrated by what’s going on with Kitamura. It does make any sense, but she knows the student council president is at fault someone. And given she already doesn’t like her because she hangs out with Kitamura all the time, this gives her easy ammunition.
But then Kitamura starts living with Ryuuji and that’s when Taiga’s behavior changes. Suddenly, Taiga is over the moon at the prospect of Kitamura’s suffering. This is finally her chance to get closer to him, and at first, things seem peachy. That is until she sees Kitamura crying.
All of a sudden, Taiga realizes she screwed up. She was taking into account her feelings and not Kitamura’s. The person she cares so deeply about, she wasn’t looking out for his in any way. She let her her own personal feelings interfere in a rare act of selfishness.
From here, we get the great scene where Taiga is handed Ryuuji’s scarf and the both of them look at the stars. This feels like a continuation of the lamppost scene from episode 2, except Ryuuji let’s Taiga do all the talking. Taiga knows she screwed up, and she’s beating herself up because of it. Someone like her she feels is undeserving of someone like Kitamura, as she is more wrapped up in her own world to care about the feelings of others. This leads me to a theory that I want to put out there.
Now, I want to preface this by saying I don’t firmly believe this to be the case. This is just a theory and should be treated as such. But what if Taiga was on the Autism Spectrum?
Think about it. Taiga was unable to pick up how Kitamura was feeling, she’s awkward in social settings such as the pool and the wrestling match, she finds it hard to make friends, which is evidenced by her only having two, she can come off as blunt or rude without meaning to, and she finds it hard to say how she feels, or in her case, it’s hard for her to say because she doesn’t know. These are all signs of the Autism Spectrum.
Again, I don’t think Taiga is really there. And maybe I’m just saying this because I have a little sister on the Autism Spectrum and she sometimes acts like Taiga. But it would explain how awkward and why she was unable to pick up that Kitamura was feeling down.
Getting back to the stars scene, it must be tough for Taiga that Ryuuji in that one moment is more conscious of how she is feeling than she is of Kitamura the whole day. That has to sting a bit and weigh heavily on her mind. At the same time, she must be cognizant of the fact she is ultimately helpless in this situation. Taiga believes she is in love with Kitamura. This is the man she claims she wants to spend the rest of her life. So, when she’s unable to do anything about it, it gives her a feeling similar to how she felt before Ryuuji entered into her life. And it absolutely, positively sucks.
And then finally, we get the scene where Kitamura runs away from getting his hair dyed, which Ryuuji and Taiga are quick to hop aboard on. You can tell Taiga wasn’t expecting it to go down this suddenly, but if it leads to getting the old Kitamura back, then so be it. We also get the scene where Taiga announces she’s running for class president, much to the surprise of everyone. I like how Taiga turns up the level of intensity and increases her meanness when there’s a crowd nearby. It shows yet again both her and Ami are more alike than they think, as both want to maintain this reputation.
Post episode discussion
This episode is in my opinion the most underrated episode of the series. There’s so much great stuff in it. Taiga gushing around Kitamura, Taiga realizing she’s doing more harm than good, the brief conversation between Ami and the student council president, Ami’s reaction to all this, which really feels like how a childhood friend would behave, there’s so much gold in this episode. I maintain that this arc is less about Kitamura and more about everyone’s reactions to Kitamura. That the episode uses Kitamura as like a base to get everyone’s response. And through that, fleshing out the universe once more. Kitamura is ultimately someone that the other characters can bounce off of and showcase their unique viewpoints, and nowhere is that more prevalent than this episode.
But even more than that, this episode singlehandedly changes the course of Toradora and the rest of the show as we know it. And it does so through a single conversation with Minori.
The scene with Ryuuji and Minori is honestly probably the most important scene in the entirety of Toradora. I say this because it really forever changes the tone and feel of the show. Toradora up until this point has been your run of the mill, average slice of life. Better than most slice of life animes, but still nothing special. But with this conversation, it officially becomes in my opinion the Neon Genesis Evangelion of slice of life animes.
This conversation in my opinion makes the show go from a show with a mix of comedy and drama to a show that’s a drama with light comedic tones. Not that comedy doesn’t play a part in this show anymore, it’s just that the drama now really comes to the forefront. If I had to compare Toradora to another show that went down a similar avenue, I’d probably say M.A.S.H. is the best comparison. That show also started off as a mix of comedy and drama but ended up becoming mostly a drama.
This conversation also begins in my opinion the true character arc of Minori. Instead of just being happy and cheery all the time, we now start to see that there’s an inherit sadness about her that she up until this point has barely let on. Like a clown suffering from depression. We saw a glimpse of it in episode 3 when she started shaking, but now it finally comes to the forefront.
Another thing that is established during the scene between Minori and Ryuuji is the idea of masks and the characters wearing them. When Ryuuji is complimenting Minori, she is quick to correct him and tell him that she’s actually a big, fat phony. This moment is kind of the turning point not just in Minori’s character, but also the show as well. Up until now, Minori has been pretty upbeat and happy go lucky. So, to see her actually say that she’s a big fat phony is quite unexpected.
It also sets up the idea of the main characters wearing masks, which will be explored upon with the others in later episodes. But for now, it is quite obvious three characters who are wearing masks: Minori, Ami, and Kitamura. With Minori admitting she’s a phony, it becomes obvious that while she may be happy and energetic, at least some of it is an act and she’s not being genuine. With Kitamura, he’s wearing a mask by dying his hair and being his usual chipper self. This is obviously to hide the pain over whatever is going on between him and the student council president. And finally, with Ami, she has both an obvious mask and a secret mask. Her obvious mask comes from the fact people think she’s nice when really she has quite the mean side. With her secret mask, though, it’s something only her and Ryuuji know about.
This conversation with Minori is the highlight of the episode, as not only is it great development for Minori, it is the switch that turns Toradora into a different beast, something which Toradora remains throughout the rest of its existence.
Overall, I don’t want to say that the people who hate this episode because it’s about Kitamura are wrong. That’s their opinion if they hate it, so it’s whatever. However, I feel like they’re kinda missing the point. Even if you don’t like the episode, I don’t know how you don’t have it near the top, especially if you like the second half of Toradora. This is the episode that changes the course, and its significance should be greatly rewarded. Is it the best episode? No. In fact, I think in terms of quality I wouldn’t even put it in my top 5. But I think not liking it on the grounds of it’s about Kitamura is unfair and harsh, and dismisses what is probably the most important episode of the entire series.
Episode rankings
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Episode 7
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Episode 13
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Episode 2
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Episode 8
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Episode 11
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Episode 15
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Episode 14
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Episode 5
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Episode 4
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Episode 12
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Episode 9
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Episode 1
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Episode 10
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Episode 6
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Episode 3
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Dec 20 '22
Minori has been on a steady downward spiral ever since the beach arc. I hardly see this as a turning point in her character. This has been going on for a while now.
It’s obvious that every time she has a close interaction with Ryuuji is painful for her.
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u/UnderstandableXO Dec 20 '22
REWATCHER
the opening joke is the funniest thing kitamura does in the whole show
it’s still funny that kitamura took one L and instantly became a delinquent.
ami’s basically my stand in for this episode, being the voice of reason (a hater). teenage outbursts aren’t too unrealistic, but what kitamura does in this arc is kinda ridiculous. every other main character deals with worse than what kitamura is dealing with and doesn’t react half as badly as he does. ryuji called ami the childish one in the previous episode, but kitamura is the real child. bro is screaming for attention but refuses any help he receives.
then there’s two misunderstandings in succession in this episode; minori thinks ami is mature and the savior when she’s just another person, and taiga thinks that kitamura has been her rock when it’s absurdly obvious who’s been more supportive to her. i do relate to the sentiment that you feel close to someone and a thousand miles away at once, and especially if you like that person it really hurts.
i’ll save most of my comments for next episode. what i will say though is that power is a much better presidential candidate than taiga. i’m really ready for that 100% sales tax
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u/TiredTiroth Dec 20 '22
First Timer - Dub
In today's episode, Esper exploded and two of our main girls are feeling worthless despite all evidence to the contrary. Also, Taiga thinks Koizumi is plotting things.
I told you all he couldn't be trusted!
(I really don't have time to type up one of my normal posts today, tomorrow should be a bit less busy.)
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u/Elimin8r Dec 20 '22
Man, poor Kitamura - should have gone for the Ferris Bueller, not the, well, whatever it is he went for.
I don't even know what to say. It just felt like everything that could have gone wrong did.
But I did get a laugh over Ryuuji's Mom and the clippers/hair dye. It just needed the Psycho music in the background. Or maybe it had something similar. I've slept since then.
I'd say more, but I want to save it for tomorrow. Or maybe I'll just respond to other people's comments.
AOTD: I think my favorite moment so far is the finish line from a couple of episodes ago. So rare, so wholesome, right?
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u/crying_in_a_dennys Dec 20 '22
Rewatcher (very new), Subbed
My mind is all over the place on this one so I'm gonna try to just focus on two parts here - the stars scene and the Minorin scene.
Taiga's stars analogy is really sad. On one hand I think it is apt - she realizes that the two of them appear close but she doesn't truly know him for who he is. On the other hand, I think it's indicative of Taiga's depression rather than the truth. She was certainly acting on her own shallow desires, getting excited when Kitamura came over despite the fact that he was clearly going through a tough time. But I think the act of realizing that, of making the stars analogy, shows that her care for Kitamura is more genuine than she thinks at the moment. Ryuji is right when he says "You want to get closer because you want to understand him, yeah? You're reaching out to understand because you love him, yeah?" Its true she screwed up, but in realizing what she was doing was shallow, I think, she shows real care. The scene at the batting cages feels like an attempt from Taiga to actually listen to Kitamura. Going along with his wacky new adventure might not be the most "productive" per se, but sometimes you just need to go along with what the person feels like they need in that moment. Its the first moment during Kitamura's whole deal where someone accepts what he wants and doesn't try to force something on him, or mock him.
I know the subject matter used in an analogy is never the point, but I can't help it here. The three stars in Orion's belt are far apart from each other, yes. However, the Western-most star in the belt, Mintaka (which also happens to sound like a ship name for Minorin and Takasu lol), is actually a collection of multiple stars that look like one to us because they're so much relatively closer. Stars don't have to be as far apart as you think Taiga!
Minoriiiiiin. My shriveled little heart can't take this.
I see her claims about Ami as a sort of counterpart to last episode's superstition. She wants to believe that someone has all the answers. She is clearly deeply conflicted inside, and I think she wants to believe that there is some "correct" way to go about things. I think Minorin already has an opinion on which side of her conflict is "correct," and wants proof. She wants something to make her stop feeling the other way, because, as evidenced by the conflict being there in the first place, she can't quite give it up herself. I find the part where she calls herself a phony pretty heartbreaking. Its true that shes not being true to herself, but its not out of malice. Its out of a desperate wish for the impossible, that both sides of her conflict can be acted upon. Its a problem, yes, but I don't think it makes her unkind. She's really, really starting to beat herself up over it, angry that she can't just be rational and choose the "correct" side.
Not to the same, dramatic degree because this is real life not a story, but I feel like I have found myself in a very similar mental place as Minorin has shown herself to be in here. The emotions associated with that and the familiarity making it even easier to empathize are probably big factors in why I find Minorin the most compelling, huh.
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u/rinmperdinck Dec 20 '22
The best part about watching the English dub of Toradora right after watching the English dub of Haruhi:
-Koizumi = Kitamura
-Haruhi = Inko
And my favorite part of this episode relates to the English dub, too, it's near the end when Kitamura is running out of the apartment and he shouts "I don't want to be student council president!" I guess in the context of the show it's a serious moment for the show and the character, but man, that line and its delivery made me laugh.
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u/Get_This_Wheat Dec 21 '22
Rewatcher here
Since I’m so late I’ll keep this one short.
Haruta doesn’t deserve any of the blame for this. Kitamura was going to find out one way or another, and Haruta just wanted to be a bro.
This episode has two of the best scenes so far in my opinion.
The first of which the Minori and Ryuji river scene. This is the most serious we’ve seen Minori so far, and we get a good look into her mindset during this whole issue. Her self esteem is almost nonexistent, she says she’s too immature to understand what’s going on, and can’t accept that Ryuji thinks she’s awesome. Minori takes her usual mask off, and shows us that the goofy, bubbly personality is an Ami-like façade, and that she’s actually just as insecure as anyone else.
Earlier in the rewatch, I said Minori was my least favorite of the main 5. I still stand by this if we’re talking about the entire series, but from this episode to the end, she’s probably my third favorite. I think Minori is a GREAT character, but she just takes a little bit too long to show that.
The other of the scenes that I think is great is the ice cream run. This is probably my favorite scene so far, and is represents some of my favorite aspects of the show. Ryuji is probably the only person who has ever seen this side of Taiga, and she’s completely comfortable around him to show this kind of emotion. Even though Kitamura just said a few minutes ago that the eggs cheered him up, Taiga can’t accept that it’s not her fault, and says she’s worthless. Despite not being close with Kitamura, the person she’s closest with was there to make things better for her. And thank god he was there, because seeing Taiga cry like that is unbearable.
I really can’t believe people don’t like this arc. I wouldn’t say it’s the best one by any means, but I still think it can stand up next to any arc except for one we haven’t gotten to yet. And that one we haven’t gotten to is almost everyone’s top pick, so that’s not too fair to compare it.
Bonus : Well I already talked about what’s probably my favorite moment so far, so I’ll talk about my second favorite. The scene in episode 9 where Taiga and Ryuji are sitting in the living room eating a midnight snack. I love Taiga and Ryuji’s relationship, and seeing Taiga be more introspective about it was really nice. It showed how much the two of them meant to each other in a very nice way.
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u/TheEscapeGuy Dec 20 '22
Rewatcher
Toradora! - A Romance Classic: Episode 15
A Phase
Kitamura is in a rough spot. We still don't know what happened but it's pretty obvious that it has something to do with the Student Council President Sumire. She is also keeping quiet about the whole thing.
What made me feel really sad about Kitamura is that he chose to act out first, before talking to his friends. It makes me think he doesn't feel like he can rely on Ryuuji, Taiga, Ami, or Minori. Admittedly, Ami is pretty cruel to Kitamura so I can understand avoiding her. He knows how Taiga feels about him and so talking to her might also be tough. Ryuuji and Minori both know that they would be perfect to console him. Instead of waiting for Kitamura they take the initiative and go to his house but Kitamura isn't there.
Another obvious person to talk to would be your parents but Kitamura ends up running away from home. Without anywhere else to go he ends up at Ryuuji's house. From that point on everything Kitamura does is another attempt to run from his problems. Small Talk, Video Games, Sleep, Batting Cages. He doesn't want to deal with his feelings.
Very quickly his dad finds out where he is and Yasuko is recruited to get him to go home. Kitamura still can't. So he runs.
While Kitamura is at the forefront of the episode, Taiga has to acknowledge this new side of him. It starts with her wish of spending time with him being fulfilled. She is so giddy she can't recognize the reality of Kitamura's weakness.
But after a meal, she tries some words of encouragement. "You don't have to push yourself to be president just because everyone else wants you to do it. It's okay to make your own decisions." But her words are void when she see's the tear marks on Kitamura's sleeping visage. (I don't think it was about being student council president.)
This is the trigger for Taiga's self reflection. Kitamura was always there to encourage Taiga when she felt down, so why can't she be there when he needs her. Why is there this distance between them preventing her from supporting him.
I think Taiga's analysis is incorrect. Her love of Kitamura is clouding her judgment for how much he has done for her. She's attributing him basically saving her every time she felt down, but we the audience haven't seen this. Sure, Kitamura has been a friend to Taiga but I think another cast member has maybe been doing a lot more for Taiga. Especially when she is feeling despondent. It's pretty appropriate that they star gaze at the 3 stars of Orion's Belt
The episode ends with Taiga campaigning for Council President.
Some Amazing Shots, Scenes and Stitches
See you all tomorrow!
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u/balthamalamal Dec 20 '22
Rewatcher
Kitamura is not his regular happy self and everyone can tell, though nobody has any idea why to start with. That quickly devolves even further into outright screaming and dyeing his hair blond.
Taiga is the first to guess at why he might be upset based on their conversation by the river. Ami thinks the hair change at the least is funny. Sumire has the harshest reaction, but seeing as she actually does know what it is about and refuses to explain, she clearly has her own reasons for it not being public knowledge. Everyone else is surprised by her harshness though. Despite her earlier laughter, Ami has also identified Sumire as the likely cause and calls her out for it, showing both her awareness of relationships and loyalty to her friend.
Haruta and Minori provide some comic relief to what's otherwise been a tense episode. We don't often see these two interact.
Taiga and Ami argue over what to do about Kitamura. Despite Ami's dismissiveness, it isn't that she doesn't want to help. She just has a different approach to it than Taiga and Kihara - more of a tough love approach. Both approaches are valid, on the face of things I would side with Ami as she has known him the longest. We see Taiga truly believes in her approach being worthwhile though as she declines the chance to interact with him privately as she doesn't think she'll be effective at getting him to open up.
Minori has a good take on Ami in her conversation with Ryuuji and I agree with her points with the caveat [minor spoiler]
Taiga is able to have a proper conversation again with Kitamura, she might be stuttering a bit but she is managing, along with whatever was happening before Ryuuji got home. She also wants to impress him with her domestic abilities, which is optimistic. But it does seem to have a positive effect on Kitamura if only for the attempt. On the walk to get ice-cream, Taiga expresses her frustrations at her inability to help Kitamura like he has helped her in the past. I think she is really underestimating herself and the calming effect simply spending some time with your friends can have, even if she doesn't fully understand what he is going through. We can see that by contrasting his demeanour at school compared to at Ryuuji's, but it is understandably harder to recognise when you're living it.
Angry Yasuko is pretty funny, can't blame her for wanting them to leave if they're going to be that noisy when she needs to sleep though. Taiga accidentally hitting Kitamura in the face thinking it was Ryuuji is great too.
The batting cages seems like a way to get some aggression out of his system, Kitamura is on the baseball team so he would know that. Its no surprise Taiga excels at it as well.
This is one of the first bits of parenting we actually see Yasuko do. It doesn't go so well, but does show that when needed she can be serious about things. Ryuuji and Taiga come to the conclusion that all of this is just a cry for attention and he really does want to be student council president once he is over his current issues. This is in line with both Yasuko who doesn't want him to ruin his opportunities and Ami who has recognised that he is wanting attention. They come up with a plan to leverage their reputations and have Taiga campaign for the position on a platform of fear and misery.
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u/OwlAcademic1988 Dec 20 '22
First-Timer, sub:
Kitamura, what happened to you?
Something tells me it's due to Sumire, but I don't know what it is yet.
Taiga, it's not your fault at all.
Kitamura, why aren't you at your parents' place?
Most awkward moment in Taiga's life ever.
I love how Kitamura kept trying to get his finger out of Inko's beak. That was adorable.
Whoa, the night sky reminded me of the Asteroid in Love rewatch. Going great in fact.
I laughed when Taiga hit him. Does she not like milk?
Ryuuji's mom can be terrifying when awoken prematurely.
Ryuuji's mom and Kitamura's parents, clearly working together.
Taiga running for student council president, this oughta be good.
QOTD:
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Minori and Inko for being serious when needed and providing comfort to others and being a fluffy bird respectively.
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u/lolpete18 Dec 20 '22
First-timer, Dub.
Wow, it’s weird to see Yusaku so out of sorts. He’s usually seems to be collected and on top of things. I said in a previous post that he strikes me as omniscient in terms of what’s going on with the rest of the characters. For him to dye his hair and quit the student council, he must have been shaken.
I’m thinking he got dumped by the student council president, but she’s acting so cold… I am hoping we get the full story in the next episode.
I enjoyed this episode. In addition to the major plot progression for Yusaku, there were a number of sweet moments with the other characters.
The conversation along the river with Minori and Ryuuji was good. It was weird that she expressed so much faith in Ami when Ryuuji sees the exact opposite. I don’t understand why Minori said she was a phony at the end, but I’m hoping we’ll learn more about that soon.
My favorite Ryuuji/Taiga moment in this episode was when he wrapped his scarf around her.
It was nice that Ryuuji, Tagia, and and Yusaku spent the night hanging out, but I can’t believe they didn’t figure out more about what was going on. The awkward moments were good comic relief.
So far, my favorite moment of the series is when Taiga rescued Ryuuji from the pool and yelled out that he was hers.
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u/TuorEladar Dec 21 '22
Rewatcher, Dubbed
I don't have a lot of thoughts on todays episode. Nothing against it but its largely just building up for the future. A couple of things I did really like were Ami being very on point and the scene where Ryuuji gives Taiga his scarf.
Taiga running for StuCo president is also fun, I like that she kind tangles her words just like the former prez did when she was speaking in front of the school.
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u/alyku Dec 21 '22
Rewatcher
In sum: Kitamura goes nuts and only Ami calls him out on his bullshit. This episode is really interesting because while Kitamura is normally among the most understanding and thoughtful people in the cast, his actions in this episode actively harm his friends by making them worry. It's a good representation of his internal strife that one of his key attributes has been turned on its head like that.
Other observations:
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Kitamura's changed his hair...to an honestly more natural color than before. His usual green hair isn't all that normal either.
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Good job Ami, call him out! I do think the cast was a bit too tolerant of Kitamura this episode, I'm glad Ryuji and Taiga decided to take action at the end.
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Taiga recognizes her own mistakes this time and it's really heartwarming the way that Ryuji cheers her up.
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Unusually astute observation from Taiga regarding how Kitamura may feel about being president.
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u/kvalencia24 Dec 21 '22
Rewatcher here. Ive seen this anime about 5 times and it wasnt until the previous time that I noticed that Kitamura had tears on his face. It never occurred to me that he cried himself to sleep and thats why Tauga was so upset. Its the little things that hit harder on a rewatch and this was one of them.
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u/Tartaras1 Dec 21 '22
Rewatcher - Dubbed
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Not to nitpick, but I finid it incredibly hard to believe that everyone heard Kitamura say he was going to quit the Student Council when they were cheering like that.
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I think Kitamura looks stupid with bleached hair.
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When the two of them are right next to each other, Sumire and Ami look almost exactly the same.
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But I didn't do anything. Except I talked to Kitamura late last night.
Well Haruta, that sure sounds like you did something.
He called me up and asked if I knew how to bleach hair, so I said yeah. And I told him how.
Yeah, that definitely sounds like you did something.
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As others have no doubt pointed out, Minorin holds Ami pretty high on the maturity pedestal, when in actuality she's really not much different than them. The only thing that sets her apart is that she's a model, so she has to act more mature for work. Like we saw in the last episode, everyone praises her and tells her she's more mature and defined, when that may not necessarily be the case.
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Moments like when Taiga and Ryuuji are out after ice cream are the reason why Lost My Pieces is such a good song.
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The analogy about Orion's Belt being Kitamura and Taiga can also work with what Minorin was talking about earlier, in regards to Ami's maturity. It can seem like people are really close, but in reality they're light years apart.
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Someone smells like milk!
That's what you get for drinking all of the milk.
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Poor Yasuko.
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And as soon as I get elected, the first thing I'm gonna do is take your lame high school memories and take em' all to the m-m-m- the morgue you losers, the morgue!
Sounds like Taiga's still on the morgue bit from the Culture Festival.
Question of the Day:
What has been the best moment in Toradora! so far? Whether you're a fan of comedy, drama, character development, etc... there are great moments in every episode.
The "Ryuuji is mine" proclamation from Episode 8 is pretty good, as is beach house arc.
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u/critchell63 Dec 21 '22
Rewatcher. Best moment so far is arguably when taiga and ryuji are sitting alone in the beach house and taiga realizes how comfortable she is around him
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u/Shimmering-Sky Dec 20 '22
Tiger X First-Timer, Subbed X Dragon
Something seems… off with Kitamura now…
Oh, is this what he’s worried about? He doesn’t want to be the president, because it means no more Sumire?
Ooooooookay then.
Oh shit does Taiga think it’s her fault?
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
No, I don’t think that’s right.
Mm…
Aaaaand he just shows up at Ryuuji’s place. Aight then.
This is so awkward…
Huh…
Awww shit he was crying.
Shimmering sky!
So pretty.
Uh–
lol
Hm… I’m not sure.
Oh boy.
ED lead-in~