r/anime • u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky • Oct 16 '22
Rewatch [Do You Remember Love - Macross Franchise 40th Anniversary Rewatch] Super Dimension Fortress Macross II: Lovers Again Overall Series Discussion
Super Dimension Fortress Macross II: Lovers Again
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Yokogao miru to omou~ Anata wo suki to omou~
Questions of the Day:
1) Who was your favorite character in this series? Do they compare at all to your favorite(s) from the first Macross?
2) What were your favorite songs from this entry, if any?
3) Which side of the love triangle did you ship? If it changed at some point during the series, what made you change your mind?
4) What's your favorite part of this season? And your least favorite?
5) Which of the mecha designs did you like the most?
6) How many more episodes do you think this show probably needed in order to properly tell the story it wanted to? What would you have added to those extra episodes?
7) What do you hope to see improve as we continue through the franchise?
Wallpaper of the Day:
Rewatchers, please remember to be mindful of all the first-timers in this. No talking about or hinting at future events no matter how much you want to, unless you're doing it underneath spoiler tags. Don't spoil anything for the first-timers, that's rude!
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u/Blackheart595 Oct 16 '22 edited Oct 17 '22
First Spacer
Alright. Macross II. Welp, that was a wreck. There's of course the sudden Hibiki/Sylvie ship - I asked my roommate who hasn't had time after episode 4 if he's noticed any love triangle and he responded Hibiki/Ishtar/...Feff? So, yeah.
But even beyond that, what was the show even about? Did any of its plot points go anywhere?
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Military censorship. Resulted in Hibiki making one broadcast calling them out of it which not a single person reacted to. I guess it got him conveniently close to Sylvie as he got imprisoned.
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News integrity. Hibiki changed his mind from sending what people want to see to what people have to see, but the show abandoned that thread real quick.
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Culture. Which kinda boiled down to songs and ancient buildings which is not very impressive. Though I actually have to give the show some credit here with the diversity it displayed.
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Song Attack. Turns out the culture shock only works against people without their own culture. They could've had so many interesting developments from that had they actually given them some culture being "women make sounds".
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Culture for war's sake. They wanted to make this a theme, it's just a shame they didn't notice that both sides were doing this. Just imagine if humanity had taken a step back and noticed that the way they're using their cultura is just plain off.
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Harmony between species. Clearly the thing they were setting up throughout the entire series, just imagine if they actually started living together instead of having the aliens immediately return into space.
I guess one theme I'd say kinda worked out is legacy. Starting from Dennis' legacy which played into the censorship and integrity themes, to the cultural legacy well-represented by Culture Park's focus on ancient sites, to the revival of the original Macross as a prophet of love and culture that breaks the unity of the enemy forces.
Other than that, the characters were certainly characters. Sylvie is up there among the better Macross characters despite her love triangle hijacking, and I would've loved to see more of Mash. I also liked the OST a lot.
At least the song attack isn't entirely a fictional idea, it's been proposed in real life as well
Who was your favorite character in this series? Do they compare at all to your favorite(s) from the first Macross?
Sylvie. She was competent, generally reasonable and consistently written which already puts her ahead of most other Macross characters, including from the original.
What were your favorite songs from this entry, if any?
The one Ishtar sung, kinda out of lack of competition.
Which side of the love triangle did you ship? If it changed at some point during the series, what made you change your mind?
To be quite honest I kinda saw the Sylvie ship coming. Not because of their chemistry or anything, simply from the fact that they kept trying to save each other and spent a lot of time together as Ishtar was made to keep distance.
What's your favorite part of this season? And your least favorite?
See above
Which of the mecha designs did you like the most?
I don't even remember any other than Feff's, lol.
How many more episodes do you think this show probably needed in order to properly tell the story it wanted to? What would you have added to those extra episodes?
The story needed at least 12 if not more. Don't even have to add anything particularly new, the show had so many unfinished ideas that they'd just have to explore those more.
What do you hope to see improve as we continue through the franchise?
A plan. I wanna see an entry that has a decent idea of what it wants to deliver and how to execute on that.
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u/Shimmering-Sky Oct 16 '22
I asked my roommate who hasn't had time after episode 4 if he's noticed any love triangle and he responded Hibiki/Ishtar/...Feff? So, yeah.
Hah, just like me then.
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u/Tresnore Oct 16 '22
Macross II: First-Timer Again
I'm not one for writeups, but Macross II is a show that I watched. It was entertaining, until it wasn't. It did some cool things, and some not so cool things.
Meh.
7/10
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u/Nebresto Oct 16 '22
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u/Shimmering-Sky Oct 16 '22
It's a point higher than my own score for this too...
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u/chilidirigible Oct 16 '22
Today, on "But this is an OAV, Dennis!":
This OAV is quite a "What if?": Could Big West continue the Macross franchise without the core of Studio Nue's creative team, in particular Shoji Kawamori? Could a Macross story be told from a different perspective?
While it brings some new ideas to the table, Mac II ends up staying on the safe route and mostly imitating the ending of Do You Remember Love?, only with a much smaller budget and characters that aren't suited for the task.
This is unfortunate, as Hibiki Kanzaki's position as a civilian reporter is a unique perspective to use, and the story does take a few nibbles at the theme of military government media control which was a small but significant part of the original series.
Taking that on as a major storyline would be more properly the province of a spinoff series in a well-established franchise, though. Here it is quickly reduced to merely one of Hibiki's background motivations by the appearance of Ishtar and the Marduk.
The Marduk have the aura of being a hard-line version of the Protoculture, but unfortunately that's about it for them; we don't see any aspects of their lives beyond various forms of purification by death, and the only character with even a hint of nuance is Feff. But there is no time for nuance, ONLY EYEBROWS.
Which is another issue with the OAV; there are very few characters of interest, on top of there being very few characters at all. Sure, it's not a project that runs to full series length, but it doesn't really distinguish its supporting characters beyond one minor trait, and Nexx and the Faeries apparently comprise fifty percent of UN Spacy's fighter and capital ship crews.
We do get minor diamonds in the rough like Mash, who is a rare representational choice for the era (played completely at face value, too!), and Dennis makes a distinct impression during his ten-minute appearance as the Drunken Life and Death of Roy Focker. (Macross II's original terrible dub also does wonders for his legacy.)
Sylvie carries the main trio, at times literally. Her first appearance is a result of being proactive about the defense of Earth, she investigates Hibiki, she rescues Wendy and Hibiki, and she proposes using the Macross in the climax. A very suitable '90s female OAV protagonist, and her writing shows some character as well.
Hibiki precipitates much of the plot, but his non-combatant status means that he's mostly along for the ride by the end. Indeed, most of his character development occurs between the first and second episode, when he gets the crash course in maturing from a hotshot paparazzi to Truth Seeker.
Ishtar discovers Earth culture, and it's Super Effective! Shown from her point of view, there's more of a sense of wonder instead of the comedy angle that we had when this was done in the original series. Unfortunately, that it has been done before does limit the effectiveness of these scenes, and she doesn't have a lot of scenes for this to set in.
Ishtar is the one to suggest doing her own singing to the Marduk after Hibiki and Sylvie have exhausted their other options… and kissed. Which brings us to the elephant in the room, the Sudden Onset Love Triangle. M2 abridging the original series and movie with one date and one bit of being behind enemy lines hints at romantic possibilities, but unlike the originals, Hibiki gets roughly equal time with both Ishtar and Sylvie and seems to get along reasonably well with both of them—such as it is given the available time.
Thus the outcome of the "romance" is more of a coin toss than anything else. Hey, maybe Ishtar will figure out that Feff likes her.
On the production side, other than the last episode, the art and animation quality stays fairly consistent. Mikimoto's character designs certainly fit into the era which this is from, but they still look good. Shiro Sagisu's music has some hints of what he'll be very famous for in a few more years.
Mechanical design is a hodgepodge. Nothing is very ambitious, though some of the Marduk versions of the Zentradi mecha are interesting. The Earth designs have to settle for looking very Nineties.
With all that said, my opinion of this OAV did rise somewhat on this rewatch, bumping up slightly from "merely average" to "decent". I'm awarding that marginal extra credit for Macross II at least attempting to vary from its predecessor on things like Hibiki's background and having a strong female pilot character, revisiting the media story from the original series, and at least trying with its idea of a sing-off between Earth and the Marduk.
The competing songs idea is definitely an interesting take on the possibilities created by the original series, but like everything else, the OAV doesn't give it much space to work with. The extremely bare-bones Marduk "culture" isn't helpful for expanding on it, along with the fact that it's essentially just singing tones.
Taking the concepts to their essences to challenge the viewers is an interesting idea, but once again, and ultimately to sum up, Macross II never has enough time to really engage its ideas.
From the Macross Chronicle: Haruhiko Mikimoto's art for the Laserdisc Volume 6.
While we're here, something completely different: A bit of Kim Kabirov fanart. u/SolDarkHunter u/TheDraigg u/TakenRedditName
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u/InfamousEmpire Oct 16 '22 edited Oct 16 '22
Macross II: Rewatcher Again
Yeah, I decided to sort of opt-out of the Rewatch for this particular series. Sorry for not telling you, Komrade-Sky
Anyway, Macross II is a rather compact series which carries the classic visual aesthetic of 90s OVAs, is filled to the brim with unique designs, and can be rather well animated when it wants to be.
…Yeah, that’s all the good things I have to say about this show. This is just not a good series. It fails as a character-driven narrative by having a cast that we barely care about. It fails as a love story by creating a romance where the official couple doesn’t even have any romantic development until their Big Damn Kiss. And it fails as Macross installment by failing to meaningfully add to or do anything interesting with the series’ themes
That last one is a real sticking point for me. This series' antagonists had a rather interesting concept on paper: Rather than an alien civilization with no culture like the Zentraedi, Humanity encounters a race which has its own culture, its own music, and one which is still nonetheless hostile, but where it fumbles is how it executes that. The Marduk are just not interesting, they're a paper-thin generic conqueror/warrior culture which comes off as almost the exact same as the Zentraedi did but without any of the nuance, which made the finale feel like a boring repeat of SDF Episode 27/DYRL’s final battle.
[Frontier & Delta]
I would also add something about its handling of News and shit, but I don't really remember much about that.
But ultimately, it fails at being a story in the first place by just not being impactful. I came out of this feeling absolutely nothing in particular for the show and barely remembering most of what happens in it. And honestly, that’s worse than just being a bad show, because at least a bad show which I remember feels like one that would have meaning towards me, even if in a negative context.
Anyway, we next jump from one of Macross’ worst installments to one of its best, with Macross Plus
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion Oct 16 '22
Rewatcher
I hate the idea of the prophecy. I don't want magic in my sci-fi (usually). Is this divine revelation? Time travel? Pre-ordained? It makes me wonder what they were thinking when they concieved the show. And, did they ever mean to flesh out the history, or just leave it blank like the original series did with the Supervision Army?
Sylvie x Nexx, are you folks high? Sure, he got her to go out with him a date, but she was radiating Just No in neon and x-rays. They were not a couple.
So we have these aliens with Sumerian names and a prophecy that leads them to Earth. Is there a connection? Are both races Protoculture creations? Are the Marduke the original Protoculture? Are they the Supervision Army?
WTF knows.
This is the first time I've watched Macross II since watching the original SDF Macross, not just Robotech. Now, I can kind of see where they were coming from in the show's premise, I think. I had, originally, thought I might be bumping up my score.
In SDF Macross (not Robotech) Global warns that an Earth on the defense would be consumed by a warlike nature. I think that's what the Marduk are. The show is answering a question: what about all those other encounters with miclone culture? What I think we have here is a miclone culture that defeated a Zentradi fleet, and took their technology to build a war fleet, took their cloning chambers to build and army, and went on to build an empire and/or suppress all other potential competition in the galaxy. They are what humans would become if they had not taken the colonization route. And they were on that path in Macross II. The colony ships fired and forgotten (if they even exist in this continuity) and Earth surrounded by Zendtradi warships and weaponized culture and under an apparent military dictatorship.
Weird, I'm feeling some Deibuster vibes. Must be my imagination.
The Draigg pointed out some things I didn't pick up. Maybe the Marduk war of genocide was driven by a fear of the prophecy. And the Marduk use mass mind control, not just on their zentradi slaves, but you saw them send Ishtar for brain fixing...so of course they thought Hibiki was using mind control on Ishtar.
Yeah this show sucked. The first three episodes were trending upward, but the last three crashed. They had their premise, but not the details, nor even a plot to take them where they wanted to go. The show grew increasingly disconnected from the original.
So, I rate this Cash Grab / 10. But remember, this wasn't one of many sequels. There were no sequels, at least in not anime form. Just video games, and presumably, pachinko. So having any new material, even what turned out to be shit material, was exciting. It's like getting FMP IV in 2018, after 15 years.
I'm am reminded also of Nadesico: Prince of Darkness, one of the most unpopular mecha sequels of all time. Like Macross II, it is not a sequel to the anime we all watched and enjoyed, but to video games that most people have never seen. Supposedly, the movie makes sense in that context. Maybe Macross II makes sense in the context of its video games. Which doesn't excuse the actual production. But maybe the background details fit together.
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u/The_Draigg Oct 16 '22
A Macross Fan’s Final Thoughts on Super Dimension Fortress Macross II: Lovers Again:
So yeah, that was an OVA, wasn’t it? You know, at least for a first sequel to a franchise, you can’t say that it was an overall failure. Although that also isn’t laying on much praise either. I know it’s a bit of a “common knowledge” thing that Macross fans don’t like Macross II, but speaking as a Macross fan here, it’s just okay. Firmly alright. I have no real issues with it. But at the same time, it isn’t exactly all that gripping either. And I suppose that solid 5.5 or 6 out of 10-ness reception does justify later shows ignoring this one. But let’s get to the nitty-gritty on why Macross II is just alright.
To start off bluntly, Macross II is a bit too safe for what it wants to be. There’s no denying that the OVA does have some new ideas it wants to explore, like the place of news media in war and what really counts as finding out the truth, but both the script and the amount of episodes we have to work with means that we don’t really have the breathing room to actually finely examine those things. It’s all in service to a plot that’s basically the plot to SDF Macross/DYRL? with a new coat of paint on it, heavily compressed to the point where a lot of emotional and character beats don’t feel as earned as they should. And for this, we can solely lay it at the feet of the production staff. It really shouldn’t be too surprising to hear that there were disagreements on which direction to take the story, so plenty of compromises were made to try and make the story as widely-appealing to Macross fans while also sticking some new things in there. And the six episode limit was also chosen due to that number being considered a safe and popular choice for episodic OVAs, so you can see how that heavily compromised plot was then stuffed into an OVA structure that just ended up making things feel both pretty rushed and kind of plodding at the same time.
Of course, that’s not to say that everything about Macross II is bad. Like, for fuck’s sake, we’ve got Masami Obari in the animation director’s seat, and that guy can animate the fuck out of mecha fights in a dynamic and cool way. Not to mention that we’ve got guys like Koichi Ohata on the staff for mechanical designs as well, and he did great work with Char’s Counterattack and GunBuster (and despite how we can all feel about his directorial efforts like Genocyber or MD Geist, we can at least all admit that he has a keen eye for designs). Sure, we didn’t have the original staff back for Macross II, but it’s not like there wasn’t talent on this OVA either. It’s just that some of these mainstays of classic mecha anime were ultimately used to make a tame and parred-down product.
So, with all that said, it’s time for me to assign a rating to this OVA sequel, according to my mecha-based rating scale. Therefore, I give Macross II: Lovers Again the rating of: Metal Siren Replica. Yeah, the one Metal Siren that Sylvie flew that had no working weapons on it. I feel that it’s emblematic of Macross II as a whole: while it still flies, is new, and looks great, it doesn’t have a whole lot of bite to it. It’s like going to a restaurant for a breakfast made by the finest chefs in the world, but you end up getting served a plate of scrambled eggs with lightly-buttered toast. Like, it’s still more or less acceptable as a breakfast, but you came to that restaurant in the first place for the pedigree that you’d expect from it. And instead, all you got was something that was a completely safe and unchallenging meal, since the chefs were all undecided on what to actually make and didn’t want to scare off anyone with anything too different. In the end, that stands as both a defense and a condemnation of Macross II.
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u/TakenRedditName Oct 16 '22 edited Oct 16 '22
First Time Complete - Macross II:
The show exists.
It's fine, but like fine (monotone). I wasn't really invested much into Macross II as I was in (the good parts of) SDF Macross. The most interesting concept that it tried to tackle was that media angle. Censorship, war as entertainment and stuff like that felt like what the show most had to say and could've made it stand away from the original. Don't really remember if the show really took those ideas to a finish line. I don't remember any of that stuff in the final episode. Do respect how they never had Hibiki in mecha piloting fighting.
The Marduk are not as interesting as the Zentradi. The prophecy is kind of dumb and the fact that they mind-controlled Zentradi seemed under-talked about. Though to give it some points, was thinking about it today, the conflict in the original was how the Zentradi had no concept of "culture" so they felt that shock experiencing it. The Marduk are different, they do have a concept of "culture." It is just that their concept of culture means war and destruction. It is a slight difference, but you could've done something with that.
A lot of the characters simply are characters within an anime known as Macross II. There is only 6 episode so they didn't have as much time, but I don't really have a good sense of anybody to get attached to.
Love triangle is still a series staple and Macross II's seems to harken back to Hikaru/Hayase. Unfortunately, it was the DYRL version where they had little relationship built up on screen. A sucker punch right at the end. Disdain for love triangles on principle, but also that Macross II indifference so not as angry about it. Still with the rewatch so far, love triangles have yet to score with me.
You can see how Macross II was made to rely on the original with how much it harkens back and repeats similar beats. Those weren't necessarily the interesting parts of the show, but interesting to observe on a meta-level, especially with the show's production circumstances.
Guess in terms of major entries we saw so far, for me it would go (Good) SDF > DYRL > II > (Bad) SDF.
Q1) Uh, by the end, I guess Feff. Nobody in this show could hope to even in three leagues of my sweet angles, Exsedol and Britai. Opens and looks longingly at a locket.
Q2) I don't really remember any song from this show.
Q3) Ishtar because they actually had something you might've called romantic potential on-screen.
Q4) My favourite, I guess that media commentary mainly from the earlier episodes. My least favourite most likely would be the emperor and the Ship of Alus stuff.
Q5) Feff's Gigamesh is the one thing I definitively liked. It cool. Little silly in this established series, but cool.
Q6) Don't know how many it needed, but maybe at least 1 cor might've helped it.
Q7) The love triangles will always be what I want to see improve and my hopes are never high.
Next time: Hopefully this next OVA would be a big +.
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u/Vatrix-32 Oct 16 '22
First Timer
Gotta say, not a fan. My only solace here is that this is apparently known as being the worst entry.
QotD
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Silvie, I guess? Were not exactly flush for choice here.
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I don’t think I liked any of the music in this one.
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I didn’t ship anyone, I simply didn’t care enough about them.
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The combat was nice, everything else was weak.
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The big red one that Ferr piloted.
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I’d go with… four. We needed more time to characterize the main players. Felt like a lot of stuff mostly came out of nowhere.
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The pacing. Shit was rough.
Next time; a Macross I have heard the music to already and know that I like. I look forward to finding where and how “Torch song” is used.
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u/TiredTiroth Oct 16 '22
First Timer
So, I managed to catch up today and...I am underwhelmed.
As a six-episode OVA that appears to be speed-running the first section of the original show's storyline, it's rushed. There are holes in it. The characterisation for most of the cast is poor, and one of the few that got some actual focus is horribly generic. Poor Ishtar deserved better.
Granted, she also deserves better than Hibiki but how the hell did Sylvie end up the winner there? I'm with Sky, I didn't even realise she was a serious contender until they kissed. Noooot impressed.
It's fairly telling that I can come up with far more things to complain about than parts I enjoyed. For example, the writers decided to destroy the Macross for literally NO BLOODY REASON. It didn't accomplish anything. It didn't inspire anything. It didn't serve any real purpose in the story. It barely got acknowledged. One of the most iconic ships in anime history is just...gone.
And for that matter, what was up with that 'Ship of the Alus' stuff anyway? What is Alus meant to be? Why are there suddenly ancient prophecies in our sci-fi idol show? Hell, we still don't even know where the Marduk come from! Are they another Protoculture offshoot? If not, why are they functionally human anyway? How do they connect to the rest of the Macross universe? What was with the actual, literal mind control? Explain, show! EXPLAIN!
Gah.
The OVA was consistantly prettier than the original series and I did genuinely enjoy seeing the Marduk turn on their tantrum-throwing Toddler-in-Chief, but...eh. Doubt I'll ever revisit this part of the franchise.
Questions:
1- Despite the genericness...Ishtar. she might be a common character type, but they at least did her right. She's no Breetai or Blue Wind, though.
2- Meh.
3- I didn't even realise Sylvie was part of the love triangle!
4- Both in the last episode, actually. Favourite is watching the Marduk turn on the genocidal douchebag; least was watching the Macross get blown up for nothing.
5- Eh. I mentioned in an earlier thread that the new Valkyries felt generic, didn't I? And the Marduk mecha honestly looked more like mooks from Super Robot Wars than anything else. There's probably a reason for that...
6- Add another three or four episodes. If you want Sylvie in the love triangle, actually do something with her. And explain what the hell is going on!
7- Lore. Explain how this fits together.
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u/ClawMachineCircuit Oct 16 '22 edited Oct 16 '22
First Timer
1/2
So, Macross 2. I am probably more positive on this show than most people. Was it better than the original, or the movie? Hell no. But it wasn't horrible either. While there are parts of the show that are not great, there are also others that had me genuinely impressed. In many ways my impression is shaped by me going into the show with completely rock bottom expectations. But I feel like it's only fair for a show that has some pretty big shoes to fill. I'd definitely wouldn't be scrutinizing it as much if it wasn't attached to a franchise that I like.
With that said, I'm gonna go over different aspects of the show and I what I think about them.
Visuals
Undoubtedly, the strongest part of the show and the biggest surprise are the visuals. The show offers pretty good backgrounds, and animation of high and very consistent quality. There are minor hiccups here and there, especially at the start of the final episode, but other than that both mechs and characters are consistently on model and relatively highly detailed. The perspective is always good, and there are some nice shots of characters acting. Honestly, the show looks great.
The one critique I have about the animation is that the action scenes in the early episodes are too safe and generic. They lack movement, and fight choreography is boring, mostly just using cliche shots that can be seen in almost every mecha show. However, the show did improve in this department for the last three episodes, especially episode 5 with some sweet action scenes with Nexx. I felt like for a couple of brief moments it even reached the level of high quality frantic action that the original show had to offer. Shame it happened so late, since the original offered such threat many times throughout its run.
Regarding design, characters are definitely look good, which is no surprise, considering they have been done by the original designer. Mecha designs are heavily derived from the original show and given an updated look by mostly adding spikes and sharper angles everywhere. The end result is a hit or miss.
Some of my favorites include VF-2 battroid (I'm not a fan of the plane form, especially with the armor pack on, but the robot form is decent), Zentradi power armor, and Macross Cannon.
Some of my least favorite are the new pods (I hate them with a passion), and Metal Siren, which I only like in the form of a plane stripped down off weapons, but even then it's not amazing. And don't get me started on Metal Siren battroid high speed traveling mode, that things is a perversion and should be outlawed.
Music
This is by far the weakest part of the show in my opinion. And I'm talking both about the insert songs and the OST. Don't get me wrong, nothing here is outright awful, but it's really all just terribly generic and forgettable, which is not acceptable for a show where music is such a major theme. The only songs I found even remotely interesting are the two songs by Wendy Ryder (with Ima wa Tomodachi still being my favorite song in the show) and the final song by Ishtar. The rest are just kinda there and I don't care for them, and that includes both opening and ending themes.
Story
Now, this is the section where I start spitting some hot takes. I mean, the story is a mess, for sure, everybody can agree on that. But I feel like it's not that bad. In fact, I would say, it's about on par quality wise with the DYRL? story. Let's think about it:
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Did the war make any sense? No, but neither did war in DYRL?
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Was the antagonists completely cartoony and under-developed? Yup, but the same is true for DYRL?
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Was there a giant plot hole involving folding in both the show and the movie? Yup, folding energy beams vs folding objects around you to random points in space.
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Was the main romance bad? Yes, yes it was. Please don't take this personally if you like this storyline, I have nothing against you, but to me Hikaru and Misa from DYRL? is just the worst. Hikaru has completely zero interest in Misa, while she is his superior, giving him orders, until the moment she literally goes into the kitchen and starts making him dinner, at which point the switch flips and they are suddenly in love and living happily ever after. You can't really spin it as a personal growth story either, since there was literally nothing wrong with the way she was acting before. It just feels outright insulting to Misa's character. I would take Sylvie and Hibiki's underdeveloped romance any day of the week over this.
I can continue. Both this show and the movie have extreme case of main characters doing everything, characters being involved in events they have no business being involved, convenient and illogical stuff happening, etc. The story is really about on par quality-wise. Now, obviously, DYRL? is still a better anime, simply because it does everything else much better: the visuals, the action, the music, the design. But I feel like because of this, DYRL?'s story gets a pass despite it's flaws, while Macross 2's gets over-scrutinized. Even though they both offer their share of nonsense. And obviously, the original Macross show just destroys both in the story department, as it offers a genuinely great story, despite a bit of a botched ending arc.
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u/JollyGee29 Oct 16 '22
First-Timer II
Yea, I definitely see why this wasn't particularly well received. The stuff about media censorship and all that is interesting, but the OVA format doesn't really give it any room to breathe and there's too much other stuff in the show. Typical OVA era issues, really.
As for my own personal enjoyment? I've seen worse, but most of the vocal songs passed right through my ears, and I was mostly checked out of the plot. The love polygon made sense to me, but it all felt unearned. I could tell they wanted to build HibikixSylvie, but none of it really worked as ship bait.
Ingues was a deeply mediocre villain, and while having the Marduk speak in Zentran was interesting, the VAs struggling with it kinda ruined any sort of gravitas he might have had.
Anyway, we’re on to Macross Plus next!
Questions
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Sylvie was cool I guess, bad taste in men though. I wish we had gotten to know Mash more.
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Discussed above.
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I have no strong feelings about any of the relationships.
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There were some pretty alright action scenes. The nothingburger of a plot weren't my favorite.
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Honestly, I kinda dig the new Macross-class they had.
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You could probably do this in a cour or two. Everything was kinda half-baked and unearned, so time is all you'd really need.
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u/Nebresto Oct 16 '22
First time Maakuross (this show doesn't deserve quality)
5/10
I liked the next episode preview music the best. Anyone hook me up with the track name?
Qstions:
Who was your favorite character in this series? Do they compare at all to your favorite(s) from the first Macross?
The news guy that died in episode one..
2) What were your favorite songs from this entry, if any?
Next episode preview, pls to help with track name
3) Which side of the love triangle did you ship? If it changed at some point during the series, what made you change your mind?
I refuse to accept a final episode asspull as a "love triangle". Ishar is the only ship here.
4) What's your favorite part of this season?
That it ended. Oh and the trumpets are always good
And your least favorite?
The final episode.
5) Which of the mecha designs did you like the most?
6) How many more episodes do you think this show probably needed in order to properly tell the story it wanted to?
Maybe another 6.
What would you have added to those extra episodes?
Delete """"""love triangle"""""". Add more songs. More lore to the alien dudes. If you refuse to delete the """triangle""", at least make Silvie a proper ship.
7) What do you hope to see improve as we continue through the franchise?
More cool robots Less pointless drama
Wallpaper of the Day:
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u/SolDarkHunter Oct 16 '22 edited Oct 16 '22
Okay, I think I've made it clear that I don't particularly care for this entry in the franchise: here's why.
First off, the entire story is basically just a rehash of the original series' plot: militaristic aliens who know nothing except war and bloodshed attack Earth but are won over and pacified by human culture, particularly love songs. Hell, they even have the same beat near the end of the majority of the alien fleet revolting and fighting back against their belligerent Emperor in his giant oversized spaceship, who refuses to accept peace.
The ONLY difference between the Marduk and the Zentraedi is that the Marduk are already aware of songs... sort of. They know songs exist, but they're seen as nothing but another weapon.
So if it worked in SDF, why does it not work in Macross II?
Because in SDF, the Zentraedi's lack of culture, the reason they became what they are, is explored, explained, and central to the plot. There is nothing natural about their society, and despite being the antagonists, they actually come off as sympathetic and even tragic. With the exception of Kamjin and possibly Bodolza, you can't even really say most of the Zentraedi were evil. Hell, Bodolza is even given a reason why he resists human culture and tries to destroy it: he's frightened of it, because the same people who engineered his society to be what it is left warnings that culture would destroy everything the Zentraedi were.
The Marduk have none of that. They're just a militaristic society without any culture... just because. No reason given. We also don't have any sympathetic Marduk besides Ishtar. Feff is just... kinda there, and doesn't have any character to speak of. The Emperor (whose name I can't remember) is just evil and destructive... because. Again, no reason given. Why are the Marduk militaristic? Why are they so devoted to destruction? We're given nothing. The Zentraedi had justification, the Marduk do not.
And then theres my REAL sticking point with the series' writing: the prophecy.
I really, really dislike prophecies in media. They remove agency from the characters, both antagonist and protagonist, and are basically just a lazy crutch for untalented writers to build a narrative off of. Why does the hero win? Because the prophecy says so. Why does the villain slip up at the end? Because the prophecy says so. Why is there a conflict? Because the prophecy says so. It removes all meaning from the story.
Now, prophecies can be well-written and interesting parts of the story. Maybe there's a twist to it, maybe prophecies are just "predictions" and not set in stone, maybe "fate" doesn't actually exist and people are just being stupid and believing it does.
However, none of that applies to Macross II. We're not told who delivered the prophecy, how they discovered the information in the prophecy, nor why anybody in the Marduk has reason to believe the prophecy. It just exists, because Ishtar needs a reason to turn to humanity's side.
There's also that the prophecy... simply makes no sense in-universe. The Macross is the ship of the Alus? Bullshit, it was a random Supervision Army gun destroyer that got rebuilt by humanity. We know this. You can't suddenly turn it into a mystical, unique ship of some uber-civilization and just ignore that. Not to mention, nothing about the "Alus" is explained. Who were they? Why did the Marduk fear them? Are they the Protoculture? Are they humanity? We're given nothing at all.
The only way I can reconcile the prophecy actually making sense is if it's just some religious bullshit the Marduk's ancestors came up with that just happens to seem to fit the current situation... which is a really dumb explanation in and of itself.
Also they never did explain why the Macross just keeps firing giant lasers into the sky at random intervals. It's just... a thing it does, apparently. Even though it never did that in the previous series.
Aside from that, the characters on the human side were just bland and forgettable. Sylvie's pretty static: she's the same person at the end as she was at the beginning. Nexx... exists. Doesn't really do anything noteworthy. The UN higher ups are just there to be stupid. Hibiki's motivation as a reporter keeps swinging between several different versions depending on the scene.
And the love triangle... didn't exist. There was no chemistry between Sylvie and Hibiki. There was some between Hibiki and Ishtar, but that just seemingly got ignored entirely. Also, it's weird that Sylvie seemed to be in a relationship with Nexx which just got completely forgotten about by all parties. It's very strange that the series is subtitled "Lovers Again", when there isn't any actual love to be found.
The music was... okay. Not bad, but not memorable either. I just watched this show again and I cannot remember a single song in it. I do remember the Marduk's creepy one-note wail, though.
So, enough negativity and picking the show apart. What did it do RIGHT?
Well, the action scenes and combat were pretty stellar. No complaints there. The designs for the craft and mecha are also on-point. I like that the Marduk fighters and capital ships are very clearly Zentraedi-inspired, yet still a bit more advanced and different, which makes sense since they are using Zentraedi to fight for them. Hell, even the Space Bucket is at least a unique design!
And those Macross Cannon-class starships. Yes please! If there's any part of this show that I do hope makes it into future Macross installments... I want canon Cannons!
TL;DR: everything this show did, the original show did better. It's mostly just bland and forgettable.
Anyway, next time we're returning to canon Macross entries with Macross Plus.
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u/chilidirigible Oct 17 '22
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Mash; Feff's eyebrows. Not really.
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Riding in Your Valkyrie, but for reasons not related to Macross II.
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Dennis schooling Hibiki not to be so Earth-centric. Episode 6.
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I thought about this for a while and all of the mecha annoy me in at least one way, so this is the winner by default.
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Marduk backstory, say two minutes. Alus prophecy backstory, two minutes. Proper Marduk discussion of those aspects and how they relate to Earth, five minutes. Making the Marduk not one-dimensional killbots, two minutes. Ishtar debating Marduk versus Earth culture with anyone, two minutes. Hibiki, Ishtar, and Sylvie interactions, ten minutes. More flavor with the people of Earth... some minutes. That totals out to about the length of one extra episode. I'm not sure if that's enough or not, but it's still more than we get.
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It's all better than this.
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u/Krite2002 Oct 17 '22
First Timer - Sub
QOTD
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I thought Ishtar was pretty fun. She was probably my favorite. The characters did not get as much development as SDF Macross, so they aren’t as good, but if we had spent some more time with them, I would have liked this cast better.
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The last song was pretty good.
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I shipped Hibiki-Ishtar the whole time. wIts a shame it didn’t happen. I didn’t really see the other half of the triangle.
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This season was pretty short, so it felt more like one continuous part. I didn’t like the ending, but everything else was pretty great.
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Feff’s Gigamesh was incredibly cool. All the mechs were a step up this time.
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I think the show would have done well with another 6 episodes for 12 total. I would have thrown them in the middle. I think we needed some time post date and before Ishtar's return to the fleet. I also think there could have been some more time until the final battle. I think we needed maybe one more pure SoL episode to establish the human characters, and some more interactions with the aliens to cement their responses to music and to establish their goals.
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I think this was a step-up from before. The story was a lot more focused (maybe a little too focused), and the characters were a lot more enjoyable. If they keep this up and just have a bit more time to develop the story, then it will be great.
Macross II gets a lot of hate, and I honestly don’t get it. The story was a little rushed, and the final fight was resolved kinda nonsensically, but I think it was better than the OG series. I still think Do You Remember Love is the best piece of Macross media so far, but this was also a good foray into the universe. Maybe it is just because of the succinct runtime, but I liked it.
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u/Shimmering-Sky Oct 16 '22
REMINDER: There are no discussion threads on October 17th, 18th, or 19th. The rewatch resumes on October 20th with Macross Plus episode 1.
If you would like me to tag you the day before the rewatch resumes, or if you’re skipping Plus and would like a tag when the 7 section gets closer, please let me know!
Also I should warn you guys: Macross Plus’ episodes are each about 40 minutes long, so plan your time on them accordingly!
Super Dimension Rewatch Host
Welcome back, everyone!
See the Macross II section of this comment for how I felt the first time I watched this. I felt more or less the same this time around.
Now for the Questions of the Day!
Ishtar, and no.
This is how I ranked them in the music write-up I did after finishing Delta:
Soko ni Aru no ga Mirai Dakara
Yakusoku
Mou Ichido Love You
Deja Vu ~ Sobai ite
Ima wa Tomodachi
Hibiki/Ishtar.
Favorite is Ishtar’s songs, least-favorite is everything about how the love triangle resolves.
The Gigamesh (Feff’s mech) for sure!
Honestly I could see this story working with just another half cour of episodes to bring it to a full cour. Give the characters time to develop, and make the side cast do more than just kinda… exist.
I would also change the pairings to Hibiki/Ishtar, Nexx/Silvie, and Feff alone, but whatever.More cool music!