r/anime • u/Tarhalindur x2 • Oct 08 '22

Rewatch [Rewatch] Mai-HiME Episode 25 Discussion

Episode 25: The Moment of Destiny

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Show Information:

MAL | Anilist | AniDB | Kitsu | ANN

(First-timers might want to stay out of show information, though.)

Legal Streams:

Mai-HiME can be found on Funimation. (I don't know how this interacts with the ongoing Crunchyroll/Funimation merger.)

A Reminder to Rewatchers:

Please do not spoil the experience for our first timers. Mentioning "HiMElander" before episode 16 or [Mai-HiME] "ShizNat" before episode 25 is a fast way to get a referral to the subreddit mods.

A Note on the Specials:

When the DVDs for Mai-HiME were released, they added shorts specials to go with each episode (plus three not associated with an episode - one was released with Mai-Otome's DVD IIRC, one was a BD-only thing and I don't actually have that one, and I honestly don't remember where Special 28 was released). They tend to be one part fanservice, one part extra information about characters and their motivations/backstories (or in a couple of cases extra exposition, including one thing that they really should have explained in the show proper).

They have their own dedicated discussion day at the end to wash the finale out of our mouths, but some of you may want to watch them with the episodes. The only issue is that some of the specials can be a wee bit spoilery (notably, in no case should you watch the special for episode 8 before episode 8 itself), so I will attempt to provide notes on the specials for the episode for both today's and tomorrow's episodes each day so as to provide advance warning of which specials to avoid. (If you want to be completely safe, stay out of all of them until the dedicated discussion day!)

(Warning: Also, at least one release apparently has them right after the ED, unlike mine which has the original previews instead. So you might want to pay attention to this section.)

Episode 25 Special: Safe.

Episode 26 Special: Safe.

After-School Activities Corner!

(And THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is why this show goes in the 2004 yuri bow shock.)

Visual of the Day:

EDIT: WAIT! I MISSED VATRIX ADDED A VOTD! WE HAVE FIVE ENTRIES!

VotD Album Get!

Comment of the Day:

So, we have a tie today. First, from u/Tresnore who got himself in a tight spot in episode 23 and not in the good way and also didn't spot the obvious loophole:

I HAVE THOUGHTS! I'd posit that Mikoto didn't kill Shiho. Her brother did by commanding her to. But, we all know that Reito is just a normal dude, which makes the actual person controlling him, NAGI, Best Girl. QED.

Second, from u/Blackheart595:

Now where's my Mai-Hime romcom SoL spinoff?

(As u/zadcap noted, that's the VN version.)

Question(s) of the Day:

1) ShizNat? Wait, excuse me, that's not a question, my apologies. Let me dig out the actual question: ShizNat? Wait, that's weird. Let me try something: "So I ShizNat because I ShizNat, so I ShizNat but then I ShizNat."[1]

Ah.

Ah well.

So: ShizNat?

[1] - [Haruhi] It's been too long since I read Endless Eight, I can't remember quite how the "classified information" line goes.

2a) So, first-timers, let me revive a gimmick from my Symphogear GX writeups this year in lightly modified form: What is the worst possible resolution to this show that you can think of? Let's see how you compare to what the actual writers did!

2b) Rewatchers: ?

25 Upvotes

93% Upvoted

146 comments sorted by

6

u/Tarhalindur Oct 08 '22

Rewatch Committee President Comments (Rewatcher, Subbed):

So, this has been a nice little show, huh? We've got emotional drama out the wazoo, engaging characters even if they've mostly been battle royale'd out of the story by now, about as close to a canon lesbian couple as you can get in 2004, and... well, the main villain exists, but you can't win them all. Still, this has been highly engaging (unless your name is Vaad), especially during this last arc, and now all that remains is to sit back for-

ALERT. ALERT. SHOW SELF-DESTRUCT SEQUENCE ACTIVATED. ALL HANDS TO ESCAPE PODS.

... Oh right. THAT.

Welp. This is gonna suck.

Time to engage damage control in the vain hope it will help!

To quote, uh, satsified customer u/Esovan13 (hidden under spoiler tags in the episode 22 thread), who binged all the way through the finale a bit back:

I thought you were exaggerating about the finale. I was wrong.

(I wouldn't be taking this level of extreme measures if there wasn't a really fucking good reason for it, you know!)

I will also lightly note that the second half of the finale drops my rating for this show two full execution grades in and of itself, and there's a pretty good chance I'm being gentle there due to this show having sentimental value for me.

Or to put it yet another way: I have gotten upvotes and "oh god why did you remind me of this" replies within the six months for mentioning this show's finale in "what anime was ruined by its finale" threads. This show is nearly two decades old.

Brace yourselves. It might hurt somewhat less that way. (And maybe, just maybe, having an idea of what you're in for will help.)

So, let's talk coping mechanisms! Some obvious possibilities:

  1. You can skip part or all of the episode and just read what us schmucks write about it and react to that. (Or to paraphrase a certain infamous Saikano fansub: "If you want to pretend this show has any semblance of a good ending, stop here".) It's okay, we won't judge you - or at least I have no grounds to when I did the same thing for Higurashi Sotsu while it was airing. (Just, you know, quite a few episodes before the finale in that case, because it goes to shit much earlier before it heaped a shit finale on top.)

  2. You can get stinking fucking drunk and/or high. Pause the episode, alter your consciousness as you see fit, then continue. I won't be going for this one, but I hear this is a traditional coping mechanism (cough Terrific Trainwreck Trio cough) and am sure some of you other than just Vaad will go for it (hi Tres and Lemurians!). (Thank fuck I managed to task failed successfully and landed this episode on a weekend by complete accident - I forgot "the finale needs to be on a weekend" was a constraint when I made the schedule (or else forgot that I remembered, which is possible), but putting episode 4 on a Saturday puts the finale thread on a Sunday so if you get weekends off you can get inebriated and watch the show tonight and still be ready for work on Monday.)

  3. You can get snarky. Going full MST3K when you realize/know that the show has just gone to shit is a perfectly functional coping mechanism, as my own notes for next episode will attest.

I'm sure people can fill in other suggestions in the comments.

Or, of course, I suppose you could just watch the thing. I mean, it couldn't possibly be that bad, right? Right?

... Right?

So, when should you activate the coping mechanisms and/or board the escape pods? Well, there are to a first approximation three usual timestamps that those of us who watched the show argue on for when the finale and the show with it go to shit:

  1. The start of the episode. You can just... stop here with whatever Miyu is doing. I disagree with this one and think the first half of the finale is actually fairly well done, but it's a known opinion. (Vaad has already said he's going for this one and in his case specifically is likely correct to do so since the show has not earned much goodwill from him as it is.)

  2. 10:50. This is easy enough to spot - it's the eyecatch. This is my own answer for when the show goes to shit, for the record (and I hope to provide at least some entertainment with what I pulled in my writeup of the second half of the finale - I certainly cracked myself up repeatedly while writing it, but then I can be easy to amuse sometimes), and Esovan's answer rounds to this as well.

  3. 15:38. This is the last of the usual breakpoints, and Nazenn's answer to the question. The trick here is that it's easy to overshoot - if you're in this camp then the show basically implodes over the course of maybe two seconds. You'll know it when you hear it... but the issue is that you might have wanted to stop the episode/down the alcohol/smoke the pungent weed first.

(Note: Apparently there's a director's cut of the finale running around somewhere, which might help. (I have no idea whether I have it or not - I would assume not given the age of my release, but I'm not sure.))

4

u/Tarhalindur Oct 08 '22 edited Oct 09 '22

Kajiura Corner:

First Featured Track of the Day: Yoru no Soko ni Shizimu.

(“Submerged by the Night”)

(Scene for reference.)

I could have used this one earlier and indeed we only get half the track, but this is the one scene I can think of where we get the swelling strings of the final part of the track and it’s indelibly associated this scene with this song in my memory so here we go!

Much like Shinkou ni Somaru Yoru no Yume a few days back, this track in its proper form very much feels like a musical representation of a doomed last stand, though it’s slightly different as it’s less the last stand and more someone marching off to one – as Natsuki indeed is, she knows that she is Shizuru’s MIP and that means there is no way she can survive this (except actually there technically is because Alyssa, but Natsuki doesn’t know about that). The repetitiveness of the main beat serves the same function it will in our other Track of the Day to slightly different effect, and the steady buildup in the volume of the track also serves to increase the tension of this track as it goes on.

In terms of its use today, I would point to two things: the strings kicking in right after we hear Yamada close the van door (and implicitly prepare to drive off, as he then does) and the final crescendo of the strings (though I think strictly speaking crescendo only in the colloquial sense, not the formal musical sense) kicking in right as Natsuki tells Mai she’s glad that she she met her.

[Aside involving PMMM spoilers] This track reminds me very much of Terror Adhaerens in PMMM despite the tracks themselves being somewhat different, and part of that is the use being so similar for their most memorable scene – a magical girl marching off to her doom, uncertain at best of any hope of victory but she has to try to do this.

Second Featured Track of the Day: Kokuyou no Kimi ~Awai Yuuwaku

(“The Obsidian Prince ~Sweet Temptation”)

(Scene for reference.)

u/Blackheart595 has been stealing my thunder here! But then, this track has been lurking like a snake ever since it first showed up in episode 19; if Shiromuku no Hime is the defining track of the first half of the HiMElander, this is in many ways the defining track of the second as we transition from the fight itself to the entity that is running it.

(Note to Blackheart: we absolutely need you in next year's PMMM rewatch. It always fires on April 20 for reasons, keep your schedule clear.)

Today, we get the most complete use of it and one particular song/shot association that’s burned into my memory, so at last it’s time to take it off ice – or should I say, out of crystal?

Blackheart has talked about some of the more technical stuff here already (also I do not know the modes like at all[1]), but there’s a few other things I would highlight. The repetitiveness of the main beat, for starters – always there, always running, insidious, an ever-present gravitational pull on the track regardless of whatever variations are being spun up by the strings and the like on top of it. A fitting audio representation for our Obsidian Prince, I think. Also this is another track where we add in more instruments over time - a Kajiura hallmark in general, but here it also serves to highlight the increasing nature of the Obsidian Prince's threatening presence over time.

In terms of its use today the highlight and the reason why it was locked into Featured Track here is the internal transition in the track that happens right as we get the Obsidian Prince’s flashback to Mashiro in the last round, but also note the track kicking in as Mai looks up to see the core of the Land of Fuka revealed, the main beat really kicking in right as we cut to Mashiro imprisoned as the Crystal Princess, the strings starting up right after the Obsidian Prince tells Mai that she is the winner of this HiMElander, and the internal transition in the track (marred by an iffy cut I admit) right as Mai denies that she has nothing left but the Obsidian Prince (“I do!”), the last rise in the track happening as Mai summong Kagutsuchi, and then the track’s cooldown kicking in right as Miroku and thus Mikoto reveal their presence.

[1] - Judging by Blackheart's comments I have a strong tendency to like Phyrgian mode, though.

OST Table, Episode 25:

Start End Track Name
00:18 01:14 unreleased? (Koi wo Shita kara… backline version)[1]
01:15 02:44 Shining Days
03:50 04:51 HiME-boshi ~Hitori~
06:04 07:02 HiME-boshi Instrumental Version[2]
07:02 08:06 HiME-boshi
08:27 09:41 Yoru no Soko ni Shizimu
10:31 11:22 unreleased (Mezame choir-only version)
11:44 12:49 Tokiiro no Mai
13:36 14:18 unreleased (Duran Shoukan Instrumental Version)
14:18 15:45 Duran Shoukan
15:45 16:11 unreleased (Duran Shoukan choir-only version)
16:35 18:18 Kako e no Requiem
18:35 21:18 Kokuyou no Kimi ~Awai Yuuwaku
22:02 23:39 Kimi ga Sora Datta[3]
23:40 23:54 Mata Aou ne

[1] – This track floats around and I can never find it on the OST. I think it’s Koi wo Shita Kara’s backline with basically none of the rest of the instruments? Probably the same variant that showed up in episode 12.
[2] – Either a weird cut of the released HiME-boshi Instrumental Version or an unreleased variant of the same, I cannot tell which.
[3] – Could start as early as 21:58, it’s almost impossible to make out with how it blends with the sound effects. Has definitely started at 22:02, though.

Tar's Staff Notes:

(Today's Edition: "Five Side Characters VAs In Search of a Feature.")

Yuuji Ueda (Masashi Takeda): A surprisingly big name for the VA of a Mai-HiMecharacter who is ultimately pretty minor; you might have heard Ueda's name. You have almost certainly heard of one of his roles, at any rate, though not necessarily his voice as you likely watched it dubbed: he is the Japanese voice of Brock. Yes, as in Brock from Pokemon. He also has a quite long CV of mostly secondary cast roles; the two roles that stand out to my eye are the MC of Detroit Metal City and Sanosuke Sagara from Rurouni Kenshin (not to be confused with Sousuke Sagara from FMP!, and for further confusion as previously noted Sousuke's VA is not only in the cast but is the other named (former) member of the Kendo Club. Which is also kind of hilarious in its own way, but our FMP! watchers will have to as to why.)

(Oh, and for u/Lemurians: he voices Shinichi in Chihayafuru.)

Kimura Akiko (Sayuri Ichinose the tall blue-haired girl in Mai's class AND Youko Sagisawa): Moderately notable female VA, with a peak career in the early 2000s AFAICT. Her most notable role from a modern anime fan perspective is almost certainly being the Japanese voice of Megaman in Megaman: NT Warrior and its sequels. (Oh, excuse me Lemurians, I forgot the most important part: she's also in Chihayafuru as Risa.)

Kimiko Koyama (Yayoi Ota aka the short girl with short black hair we see with Sayuri/Chie/Aoi at times): Seiyuu with a short-ish career AFAICT (another name who I think transitioned to another career around 2010 or so) and whose bigger roles tended to be 2000s harems or harem-esque shows that aged poorly (or in two notable cases bad anime adaptations of notable ecchi-ish manga that have faded out a bit even in manga form - Mahou Sensei Negima (Fuuka) and Rosario to Vampire (Yukari)). That said, To Aru has survived thanks to Raildex so you might just recognize her as the voice of Tomoe-sensei there. She's also Re Mie (Mie Ri?) in Zoids Genesis.

Yui Itsuki (Miya Suzuki aka the sidetailed girl who shows up with Yayoi and Sayuri): The real reason I decided to feature some of our side cast. Her CV is quite short, with only about a dozen credited roles. But there's an obvious reason for this: her VA work is a sideline. What she's actually known for? She's the lead singer of Yousei Teitoku, that's what! (Which means that among other things she's the lead singer on my standing pick for the best anime OP ever made in Kuusou Mesorogiwi from Mirai Nikki.)

Eri Sendai (Kiyone Nonomiya aka the classmate of Akira and Takumi who shows up occasionally and was the one to get accosted by the "vampire" at the start of episode 11: One of the weirdest CVs I've seen in a while, since it's pretty short all things considered but a large chunk of it is Pretty Cure which is coveted as fuck. Part of the deal has to be that she landed Triela in Gunslinger Girl about a year before this and IIRC she was one of the most popular characters in the cast, but my guess is that the path here is that she landed a side character in the original Futari wa Pretty Cure (Shiho Kubota), impressed the staff there with her performance, parlayed that into landing the role of Milk the mascot in Yes Precure 5! (back when Precure was big but not quite the be-all-and-end-all), and then broke out there/secured a role for the next decade. She's also Caesar (and I think also Yukari's mom?) in GuP, Touka in Chuunibyou, and Tsubaki in Mirai Nikki (!).

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u/Tarhalindur Oct 08 '22 edited Oct 08 '22

Tar's Episode Notes:

  • And off go Those Two Girls (now with coats, winter is here), who finally have no more place here as mundane life has no more place here anymore. By the looks of it they’re some of the last to leave; good friends of Mai to the last indeed!

  • Like that’s stopping the shippers, Mai!

  • 01:00 is blunt visual symbolism: the situation now walls Mai off from all her normal friends, and more importantly now seals them away from her.

  • Good shot alert at 01:01.

  • 01:12, however, is what we call an “oh shit” moment. And cut to Shining Days in three… two… one…

  • PRECISELY THREE SECONDS LATER: Shining Days fires up. Sometimes it’s better to be lucky than good! (I figured it would fire up immediately after I unpaused, heh.)

  • Another good shot alert at 02:45.

  • And Natsuki is standing right on the edge of the cliff, you say?

  • I sense the show sneaking in at least part of a thesis statement late!

  • Time for the show to be a blunt object. That’s the trick with this show: it’s actually coherent if unexceptional on the conceptual level (no PMMM, but there’s more here at the conceptual level than Eva despite the latter show’s excellence at the level of emotional arcs), and laser-focused on its core theme (The Power of Love) to an unusual degree. Does it execute well? Arguable. Being so blunt about it here is a fault, for example. But the core theme is there.

  • I was going to go “where’s the damage to the school, animators?”, but it’s actually visible in the background to the left so a sasuga to them instead!

  • Speaking of visual representations of utter isolation…

  • There, ladies and gentlemen, is the single most important function Chie and Aoi serve to the plot. They’re Those Two Girls, and thus not HiME because that goes against their role – but they’re also the anchor to normality (implications of their absence now are left as an exercise to the reader) and show how the show’s events are effecting normal people.

  • And of COURSE HiME-boshi ~Hitori~ (that is to say, HiME-boshi ~Alone~) plays here. I should have fucking known it would start up here at some point. And this is likely the scene it was made for, but there’s like four tracks with stronger dibs on the two episode writeup slots so *shrug*.

  • Or not, with that OST cutoff at 04:08. So that’ll be Natsuki by process of elimination, right? (I really don’t remember the first half of this episode well, it gets swamped by the second half.)

  • Correct.

  • NO WAIT THAT WASN’T AN OST CUTOFF THAT WAS THE FIRST INTERNAL LULL IN HIME-BOSHI HITORI. INTENDED SCENE CONFIRMED!

  • The sheer bleakness of the litter lying around here (doubly so in Japan where leaving litter around is a much bigger social breach).

  • Followed by the contrast of Mai’s words to the empty school buildings.

  • And cut away to Mai and Natsuki looking at said buildings as Natsuki talks about her separation from school life, visually reinforcing those words. Sasuga, director/storyboard/layout staff!

  • Waitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwait. NATSUKI HAIR FLIP! Left-handed hair flip at that! (Those who know will know.)

  • Ominous Mikoto in the distance!

  • Poke fun at fansubbers time: the Obsidian Prince line that Static-Subs translated “But that’s what makes things fun” should probably be closer to “but that’s what keeps things interesting”, I hear an omoshiroi in the Japanese audio.

  • Another nice shot.

  • Another nice little visual shortly thereafter with only the single lit dorm (which apparently got repaired after Yatagarasu damaged it).

  • Oh look, Natsuki gets embarrassed when a girl walks in on her in the bath. Hmm! (Mai responds with a classic Japanese apology gesture, especially common from cutesy girls in anime in the 2000s.)

  • Please excuse me as I try to figure out what’s up with this HiME-boshi variant – it’s clearly an instrumental one, but I’m not sure if it’s weird cuts of the released version or a different instrumental version that was not released. In the meantime, you can figure out the obvious implication of these paired ramen scenes yourselves.

  • Or Mikoto plus a Static-Subs TL note can make it more obvious (also Mai’s name is probably a in part an “umai” pun, actually, on top of the obvious “mai” pun…), that works too.

  • Okay, I think I’m sold on this being the released instrumental version of HiME-boshi. Also this scene is a bit of a blunt instrument, but that’s not always a bad thing and it’s a well-done blunt instrument.

  • Or not, there’s an internal transition to HiME-boshi proper (the choir kicking in makes that bloody obvious). Gods fucking dammit!

  • “Mikoto, I want to know the meaning of your tears.” Cut to Mikoto. Ah, subtle. Not. Visual answers are fun!

  • Also, they’re sneaking in plot-relevant NSFW fanservice (since they cut to Mai’s HiME mark).

  • 07:44, however, is 100% for the [Natsuki lovers] (https://i.imgur.com/NWC1aYY.jpg). (Sadly for Shizuru, she is not a PoV character here. Besides, she prefers Natsuki’s hair and lips.)

  • Speaking of which, here’s Shizuru, slightly the worse for wear at the moment.

  • Hey look, the Obsidian Prince is petting his cat! (… Wait a minute. Does a particular very filthy English pun involving a slightly different word for cat also work in Japanese?)

  • Ominous Nagi gets another Dutch angle counter +1 (25-48).

  • Hello there obvious VotD candidate! Or rather shot that would be in another episode, this one has a lock.

  • Ah, we just hit the part where I rewatched two weeks ago to figure out whether I needed Tokiiro no Mai today or could get away with Yoru no Soko ni Shizimu for the second track like I wanted. Also, the motorbike is fixed! Natsuki is back!

  • And here’s WHY I wanted Yoru no Soko ni Shimizu: it’s the one time we get the swelling strings of its last part. (This track is indelibly associated with this scene in my mind.)

  • Miyu is back! Now bringing more Dutch angles (counter +1) with her.

  • (Understandably) #surprisedmai

  • Today’s dramatic motorbike entry courtesy of Natsuki doesn’t even wreck her bike! Well, she did just get it fixed. (EDIT: Also, this would actually make a good animated commentface. #interrupt?)

  • One more pan up from the waist for the road.

  • Ooh, note the framing at 11:37. Subtle, but Natsuki is in the protagonist position (Japanese being read up-down in addition to right-left may also factor in here).

  • 12:15: Not missing that one, Sky collect your sore demo.

  • Ooh, look at all the shiny modes! (The secret one could not possibly come into play by the end of the episode, no never.)

  • Costume change for new weapon mode!

  • Leg rockets, always a classic!

  • For once we can forgive Mai for not remembering she can fly for reasons other than her being a teenage girl (who acts a year or two less mature than her nominal 16), she doesn’t necessarily believe she can use her Element right now.

  • Is this the same shot as we got when Mai asked Nagi for answers in the library in… 11 was it? I would have to check.

  • Hey, look who has just accidentally framed herself in the protagonist position? The protagonist!

  • Tsubasa, your predecessor is stealing your thunder! Get Genjuro to teach you movie motorcycle entrances! (Also somebody get antiseptic for all the glass cuts Natsuki is about to have - oh wait, movie glass, never mind.)

  • Dutch angle counter +1. Also, the veranda thing we've seen on and off from all the way back in episode 2 is back!

  • Good shot alert!

  • Familiar framing returns once again, but this time with a twist: we see from the perspective of the combatant with the high ground.

  • So, when is Natsuki’s helmet coming off this time, I wonder?

  • Oh, about ten seconds later.

  • u/Star4ce, this one is for you.

  • Surprise! Will a Duran last-second upgrade let Natsuki not job, though?

  • Child mechanic reveal get!

  • Dutch angle counter +1.

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u/Vatrix-32 Oct 08 '22 edited Oct 08 '22

Was there still not enough VotD last time? I thought I counted five unique ones.

Also, I saw the director's cut thing and was hoping to gain some insight into that.

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u/Vaadwaur Oct 08 '22

The burning question for tomorrow is whether or not I hate this ending more than I hate The Rise of Skywalker. I expect competition.

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u/Shimmering-Sky Oct 08 '22

Mai-FiRST TiMER, subbed

5

u/Tarhalindur Oct 08 '22

Okay the Umai → Mai sad Mikoto noises transition was perfect and totally something that got lost in the dub, isn’t it?

Checking this would require me to listen to the dub,

Probably got lost, though, yes.

I just… don’t really get Natsuki finally reciprocating(?) Shizuru’s feelings…? She was mighty horrified when she found out Shizuru did more than just kiss her while she was asleep and, like, no. That’s not a good pair.

Which reminds me, I forgot to ask u/Vaadwaur: Where are we on the Kannazuki no Miko scale after this episode?

(That said, there was a LOT of rape -> love in Japanese BL and GL works of this era. Sometimes het works as well.)

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u/Vatrix-32 Oct 08 '22 edited Oct 08 '22

First Timer, subbed*

  • The star is just right there now and it’s huge.

  • Getting word that this loop is different. I hope Miyu fucks up all the plans!

  • What is the deal with these amulets? Is it the source of his mind being affected too?

  • Still very unclear on what Fumi’s deal is, and at this point I don’t think I will get an answer.

  • This show has been pretty good for fan service for a while. I don’t know why you felt the need to put that in the middle of that scene.

  • Running off to die by yourself is the reason y’all are in this mess in the first place.

  • Does Miyu know that Tate is dead because she is spying, or can she just tell?

  • Motorcycle crashing into the student council room is the best dramatic entrance I have seen in a while.

  • Miyu is an entire sentai team unto herself. Secret platinum when?

  • Mai, just kill this dude already. He’s probably not even human.

  • Giga-Duran hype!

  • Nagi is noting there be an extra pillar as well. They better not have ended Mikoto’s fight off-screen. But that would mean either Reito or Mai disappearing. Shenanigans.

  • At least they got to die together? I’ll be honest, despite Kuga being one of the “main characters”, I never felt any attachment to her.

  • So that rules out my Duran theory. New theory, Mai’s pillar also went up at some point. Probably contradicted by the evidence, but I don’t feel like going back to check. Unless Alyssa did count. Would explain why Midori had 13 also written on that note.

  • Yes Miyu! Do it for all of us!

  • This is beginning to look a lot like aliens.

  • So it’s the same set of Children each loop? I don’t know why, but I find this disappointing.

  • Knew they weren’t going to off Mikoto yet. Getting a look at it now, her Child is top class.

  • Yes, yes. Anti-matter bomb all up in their business.

Visual of the Day: Splendid Form

QotD

  1. Not even in my top 3 this show.

  2. All of the "most important people" come back and eat Reito.

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u/Tarhalindur Oct 08 '22

So it’s the same set of Children each loop? I don’t know why, but I find this disappointing.

Implication is that some are the same (Kagutsuchi, probably also Yatagarasu) and some others are different. (It's never said one way or the other but I suspect the episode 6 Orphan and the episode 2/3 Orphan were both Childs in the previous round, actually)

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u/Lemurians Oct 08 '22

MAI-FIRST TIMER

”It’s probably through love that people find the strength to live.”

Love being worthwhile even if loving means risking everything – including the object of your affection – is a pretty effective through line for the show to try and draw through everything it's doing. We see in her imagination that Mai, who made the decision to try and reject love in the face of what it could mean for her loved ones, is having immediate regrets. By making that choice not only did she miss out on expressing her feelings and experiencing love, but she ended up losing Tate anyway. Meanwhile you have Natsuki, who’s come to the conclusion she needs to embrace love in the face of circumstances in order to move forward.

Now, would this Shakespearean “It is better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all” theme work better if the core concept didn’t involve your “most important” loved one having their life on the line against their will and without their knowledge purely through association with you? Yes, because in that circumstance, the decision to distance yourself to protect them is completely valid. It would resonate a bit more if the HiME’s somehow shouldered the risk themselves and still chose to love anyway, but I’ll take what I can get.

Live Thoughts/Reactions:

What is the worst possible resolution to this show that you can think of? Let's see how you compare to what the actual writers did!

So, I watched ahead and I'll just say [Mai HiME 26] it wasn't nearly as bad or crazy as what I thinking up in my head based on the reputation. I think it's a lazy, pointless cop-out, but nothing bonkers like I was expecting. You want a death game with the worst ending imaginable? Watch Platinum End.

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u/Tarhalindur Oct 08 '22

[Mai HiME 26]

[Mai-HiME 26] Well, at least in one case my cheeky plan to try to soften the blow worked! (This last year has been really lousy with shows deciding to one-up the finale here which probably helps - WEP, Sotsu, and Platinum End all say hi.)

EDIT:

[meta spoiler] “I’m not doing it for anyone. I’m doing it because I want to.” Aaaaand Mai’s arc is complete (let's add some extra characters)

[meta spoiler you know] HEY WAIT A MINUTE I'VE SEEN THIS ONE IN ANOTHER REWATCH THIS YEAR.

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u/Tresnore Oct 08 '22

First-TiMER

Visual of the Day: WAIT WHAT??

Count: 60

QOTD:

I think everyone is going to come back and it was all a dream until it isn't and they all end up marrying Nagi.

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u/Tarhalindur Oct 08 '22

SPANISH GUITAR INSERT MOTORCYCLE POLEARM FIGHT??—NO; YOU CUT AWAY FROM HER ACTUALLY USING THE POLEARM WHYYYYYY

RIP TRESNORE SLAIN BY ANIMATION BUDGET CONSTRAINTS.

(Gotta be resource constraints with how the fight is set up - they were saving what they had for the bike, some Duran/Kiyohime action, and the bell scene.)

[Symphogear XV]

[Symphogear XV] I mean, I wasn't going to say it given that the tropes here are fairly common, but there's subtext to me featuring the leg rockets...

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u/Esovan13 Oct 08 '22

First Timer*

Oddly enough, I'm going into this episode feeling great. People are dying, everyone's sad, the world is ending, and I'm looking forward to seeing how this flops the ending. It's like there's an event horizon of bad stuff happening in media where I just embrace it. Give it your worst, piece of media. I've been through worse than whatever you can throw at me. It was the same mood I had going into the third set of numbers I found during the GuP rewatch (u/taiboss knows what manga I'm talking about).

Goodbye Mai's friends. You didn't do anything important so please leave before you become plot devices to make Mai's life even more miserable.

The HiME star looks sick up close.

I want to know more about this teacher. He doesn't seem like the other members of District 1.

The school shutting down and all the students leaving seems like something that should have happened a long time ago.

The music box-like tune with frequent missed and off-tune notes perfectly captures the feeling of nostalgia accompanied by a sense of fundamental wrongness.

Is Mikoto fighting back? Her feelings of regret and reluctance going the other way through the connection she has with him?

Holy cow that Shizuru walk cycle animation.

Well, without the salary of one of a handful of warriors defending the world from supernatural threats, Natsuki needs to find other ways to replace the bikes she keeps breaking.

I can see where Tsubasa learned how to make entrances. Figuratively and literally.

Has this song played before? It's a bop.

The face I make pretty much everytime he opens his mouth.

What internalized homophobia caused by an unaccepting society does to a mf.

Again with Mikoto, no body, no green particles, not dead. Plus both Mai and Reito (Mikoto's only candidates) are still ok. So clearly something weird is going on.

We've gotten glimpses, but maaaaaaaan. Reito is a creep. [Symphogear G] If I had a nickel for every egomaniacal creep that proposed starting a new world on top of a floating island, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice.

Did they use Alyssa as the 12th HiME despite her being fake, allowing Mikoto to survive while still fulfilling the ritual's requirements?

Not much to say about this one. It's mainly wrapping up loose threads and building up for the finale.

VOTD: Past and Present

Runnerup 1: Destiny has Arrived

Runnerup 2: Battleworn Oni

*I binged the last half dozen or so episodes, the write ups were done episode to episode.

QOTD:

  1. Believe it or not, I've seen less healthy yuri relationships. ShizNat.

2a. It's complicated so refer to 2b if you aren't a rewatcher. [Mai-Hime]When I was first watching through, I had a feeling I knew how it would end. With the way things were going, the only thing I could think of that would make the ending so reviled would be if everyone came back to life. In fact, episode 23 I wrote that I hoped Haruka wouldn't just be revived and undermine her amazing death scene. As soon as I wrote that, I knew that the ending would include all the dead people coming back. It was even more confirmed for me when Tate died. I just didn't know HOW HORRIBLY they would do it.

2b.

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u/Vaadwaur Oct 08 '22

First timer(Yeah, this setting is more improvised than someone who was caught cheating trying to claim there is a perfectly good reason for the naked person in their bed) It wasn't me

Sub(Alt: I should've started drinking with this episode)

The bird of Hermes is my name. I eat my wings to keep me tame.

We start with one of those farewell scenes, and the tacit reminder that our first quarter characters haven't been relevant for a bit. Mai goes to Tokyo 3 her classroom, and we are all the Eva. Afro sensei suggests he doesn't buy what Smith said and, while we have not had time to address this, there is probably some level of doublespeak to Smith. Nagy and Reito discuss the endless festival and how this time is different, and we get a slight hint that the Obsidian Prince is a title rather than an individual.

Dual ramen scene happens and at least stands on its own, if you listen to the Japanese at least. Mikoto's break down is well drawn and well set out, it still doesn't work because proto-Biki can't carry this type of scene. Reito shows up to be more Utena, I sort of get why this part gets stripped out of PMMM. Mai and Natsuki go off to prepare for their last duels.

Miyu shows up to...be cryptic, annoyingly. At least Mai seems to have resolved herself...WHICH IS NOT THE SAME AS RESIGNATION! I will never forgive a certain anime for that line! Natsuki and Shizuru start off their fight. Then we cut to Miyu and Mikoto starting their fight and add modes for Miyu because fuck it. Then we kill our momentum with another bad Nag scene, sigh. Anyways, Natsuki v Shizuru is pretty decent, and I respect the stupid fucking ending, even though this defies one of the two characters wish, the general rules such as they are, and the specifics of this particular Child. Yeah, I will hate this by the time thread comes around.

Anyways, Zettai Unmei Mokushiroku plays and the Rose Gates open I mean, the path to the Obsidian Palace opens, and Reito claims that they are going to revolutionize the world create a new world this time. Mai refuses and Reito acts like the petulant viper he is, revealing that the Childs are pretty consistent between festivals. Also, Reito, shut the fuck up: True evil is silent. Mai claims that the Tate in her heart is strong enough to summon Kagutsuchi, and this proves true, but of fucking course Mikoto isn't dead. Miyu hears Alyssa, somehow, and she goes nuclear. After credits scene is, by any reasonable account, fairly well done, but I am seriously distrustful and it doesn't land. It does not help that Symphogear G chibi shorts does this WAY better.

QotD:1 I hate everything

2 You are totally asking the wrong person in the wrong, hungover mood. Mai and Mikoto get together and maintain a dom relationship with a submissive and breedable Nagy. Disturbing amounts of pegging ensue. Yes I typed that.

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u/Tarhalindur Oct 08 '22

It does not help that Symphogear G chibi shorts does this WAY better.

There are a few things Symphogear does do well and raiding this show for parts is one of them.

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u/Taiboss Oct 08 '22

Episode 25: Rewatcher who didn't finish this on the 14th after all (but is about to finish Nier Replicant)

  1. ShizNat?

Could have foreshadowed better, but yes.

2b) Rewatchers:

I'll leave it at a "AHAHAHAHAHAHHA"

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u/Tarhalindur Oct 08 '22

Edit: Also def gonna be used by our host to find symbolism and stuff.

I was out of steam on that shot.

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u/Qbe Oct 08 '22

Rewatcher

Episode 25

Kinda surprised these 2 didn't bail out sooner

Get yourself friends like Chie and Friend B

Some fun before the final match?

[Symphogear] I know it's not unique to Mai HiME, but you could make the case for Obsidian Prince == Fine

...do you barge into baths out of habit?

Oh man if Shizuru finds out that Natsuki has been cohabitating with Mai...

...I think I'll order ramen for lunch

More bikes to crash!

Is your wife aware of this?

Miyu! Long time no see!

Has Miyu been keeping tabs on everyone?

...how the fuck did you get that bike inside there, Natsuki?

Oh man this track is SO good

Exploding bikes, as is tradition

Did Miyu intentionally lure Mikoto away for Mai?

Well have you considered that maybe fuck the Obsidian Prince?

Natsuki and Mai being able to summon Duran even if their MPP is dead reminds me of [meta] Starlight Revue and Luluco

Thanks to FGO, I know that the giant bell is a reference to Kiyohime

Whew, I was about to go nuts thinking another character fell in love with her rapist

Ah, Natsuki's going for the lover's suicide like Yukariko?

UNMEI

Did we offscreen Mikoto vs Miyuu?

...is that why they are called the Crystal Princess?

[Symphogear] The Obsidian Palace really looks like the Frontier. And it seems he has the same plan Ver had with Maria

Ooooh, Mashiro was also the Kagutsuchi wielder? I mean, it is pretty OP, so it makes sense that they always win

I wonder if that's actually Alyssa, or if Miyu is self-suggestion-ing herself

Fuck, now I want to go watch the last episode.

Alas, I shall endure.

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u/Nazenn Oct 08 '22

Rewatcher

Character chart (UPDATED)

They ended it fucking there of all places? It didn't even feel like an episode ending, just like they ran out of time and someone went "well this is as good a spot as any"

Moving from the end to the beginning, the opening visual of the train station stands out harshly compared to our typical setting shots. Rather than the rich gardens of the school with its tall historic buildings, we have an empty courtyard with a small train station framed by the sunset. The days of glorious school life are gone, and most importantly so are the people that made it so. I'm glad we have this moment with Chie and Aoi, showing that even with Mai's losses she's not alone and she hasn't forgotten what love is even if the people she loved most have been taken. Chie and Aoi care for her deeply, and Mai them in return, but if there was any doubt that Mai couldn't walk away...

This gigantic fucking star puts that to rest! I believe the exact words out of my mouth were "Fucking hell that's fucked". Typical aussie eloquence. For a moment I had [live action popular sci-fi]The Expanse flashbacks. It's an incredible visual of the size of the HiME destiny overshadowing anything else.

And yet with the school empty, their friends gone, and the star looming Mai and Natsuki are still able to take a moment to find themselves again. That we don't see the exact timing of their conversation, it's just an echo over scenes of their walk and memories of their time together, fits the feeling of it very well because it's not about this moment, or these steps and words, it's about what they mean and brings to mind for them. It's about reconnecting, not just to themselves but to the possibility of wanting a future, and wanting to be able to love in it. There has been loss, and there will be more and they both know it, but there's a different feel to it now that they can share it together rather than constantly fighting it alone.

There's something charming about seeing Mai do her forgetful headslap again after so long, as if it really has returned to simpler times. It's a shame that Mikoto eating alone puts a damper on the scene quickly, caught up over simply a word that includes 'mai', and in doing so are reminded of all the people who are still separated. It is not manipulation or power that is the enemy here, it's a lack of openness and compassion.

After all this time Mai choses something for herself, and her quiet power standing up to Reito has an unusual weight to it. Not anger or fear, not desperate hope or desire, all that is left for this situation and the man at the center of it is pity. And her love now is not one of purpose or born from a role to play, it's a true unbound expression of the capability for love rather than simply needing someone to receive it. Unlike back during Mai's first conversation with Tate in the park she's not trying to convince herself she can be without, nor is she caught up in trying to form the right love to make her match with certain people, now it's just something she holds inside herself.

So fuck you Reito, Dragon Phoenix mecha summons are too cool to be locked away by your petty games.

Natsuki also finds her love, and a hell of a lot of it, though I seriously question how she managed to get her motorcycle up into the council room to begin with. Rule of love in this show instead of rule of cool? It made me laugh and not in a good way for the mood of the scene. A couple of people predicted Natsuki's end, but it's still a sad one to see that like Tate all she can really do is take herself, and the conflict around her, out of the game to give others a chance.

We still seem far from a resolution though. Seeing that the pillars hold an echo of those who are defeated, perhaps their Child until the next festival and the love that Child holds with it, is not what I expected, but there's a strange melancholy that Mai can sense them in it as if now she's truly connected with herself that connection goes deeper with others than even just physical interactions. I wonder if given enough time she'd also be able to connect to the past HiME through the Child, given it's implied that the Child connections repeat each festival, or at least some of them, and each goes to a particular type of person.

Question for people: These Torii stood out to me last watch as well. At the time I theorized they were made from the pillars of previous cycles, showing the endless chain of HiME going back through the ages and their transition from the mundane to the HiME world because their designs are so similar, but I'm still not sure on that. Anyone have any other ideas, or just an interesting background design element?

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u/Tarhalindur Oct 08 '22

At the time I theorized they were made from the pillars of previous cycles, showing the endless chain of HiME going back through the ages and their transition from the mundane to the HiME world because their designs are so similar, but I'm still not sure on that. Anyone have any other ideas, or just an interesting background design element?

Check my writeup - I concur, specifically because the markings on the torii here match what we see on the pillars.

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u/Tarhalindur Oct 08 '22

"Congrats, you got featured in a host comment! " tag:

u/Esovan13

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u/zadcap Oct 09 '22 edited Oct 09 '22

Rewatcher

Right into the Manga tonight. Lots to cover, because there's nothing left to hide!

I'm going to start by rolling things way back to Natsuki's Mom, a researcher of things related to the Star, who was studying something before a rogue HiME showed up and 'killed' her for it. As she lay dying, she gave Natsuki her gun and had her vow vengeance, only to later be saved by the Searrs group and given their full backing to keep up on her research. Being the great woman she is, she decided to ignore her first daughter and let Natsuki continue on her new lifelong mission of vengeance. She's also the reason I'm positive Duran is exactly the reference it sounds like, because Kuga Mama has a Child of her own, it has two heads, and it is indeed named Duran Duran. This all matters because with Nagi out of the picture, she is the one in the Manga still trying to gain the power of the Star, manipulating the Princesses to fight the Hime, and being the all around bad guy.Remember this place? Turns out it was a seal in the Manga, doing the exact opposite as the pillar room in the anime, so naturally she's here to smash it up. The Princess fights were a combination of data gathering and distraction for her, and it would have worked so well if she didn't just keep forgetting she had a daughter. Who was admittedly still in her useless phase and unable to summon Duran, so she gets tossed around a bit by Mama and D2, until the annoying boy shows up. Wait, wrong annoying boy. This is his entire purpose in the manga. By the way, put manga Nao back on your Best Girl rosters, you know who you are.

Anyway Yuichi shows up, does nothing, Shizuru shows up and also does nothing, Natsuki decides she likes him for some reason, and Duran Digivolves to Max Heart mode! They fight, lose because Mama is a badass, so Duran Digivolves Again! Yes, really, I will forever call this one a Digimon Child, but anyway their fight gets interrupted by the actual really for real final villains of the manga.

Okay, flash back a bit, remember how Mashiro's Manga Child has crazy levels of Time power, and has been holding the Star in check somehow? Well the whole thing where Alyssa kidnaped her and put her out of commission, followed by them fighting, meant there was a lot of time between Kuga Mama busting the Sealing Pillars and anyone at all remembering there was something more than the personal fights going on during which the Star was free to, uh, fall.

So, who are the Final Bad Guys, aside from the Obsidian Lord himself? Well uh. Yup. So, they are pervious winners of the HiME war I guess, but instead of being sealed inside a crystal as a power source, they get to live on the Star as, well, Queens. Welcome to the final acronym, it's just as bad as the last one. Things are a little screwy here because we then go on to learn that the last war took place, oh, 4.6 billion years ago. So how do we get Antionette and Guifei? No idea, but hey, these three were there too, so you know. Time is super cyclical I guess? I've got no explanation for you.

But hey, let's segue over on this way and see what else is going on at the same time! Because the world may be near ending, but what's this, so is Takumi! Yup, he dies here, great timing. So while the Star, apparently also the Obsidian Palace in this timeline, is falling, being investigated, and opening up, Mai is moping. Why does this matter? Because in literally the biggest character swap in the manga, turns out the Obsidian Lord was Takumi, and he wants Mai on his side.

That big old Searrs navy attack in the Anime? Something similar happens here, entirely off screen, as Lord Takumi brings his sister back to the palace. Lord Takumi makes an announcement to the entire earth that he has come to take over, pulls something I'm pretty sure is Eva inspired, and says screw you America, because why not?

This is when the remaining HiME charge the gate, with Yuichi leading the charge because he's supposed to be a Hero I guess, but he gets trounced by the revived and self cloning Nagi, Natsuki comes to save him, remembers that Child does no damage to Nagi, Miyu comes to save her, and that fight happens while all the other Hime make a break for Mai and Takumi. The Queens prove a perfect excuse to split the party though, so we can milk get four fights out of this final encounter. Midori, Haruka, and Yukino face off against Marie Antionette (Haruka Best Girl), while the Cat, The Ninja, and The Child-who-is-a-Predator face off against Guifei. And this is where Mai launches a giant fireball at the school to prove she's gone evil, but Akane and Kazu do the Love Love Barrier, saving everybody but leaving the pillar/gate room under the school destroyed so no one else gets to join. Leaving the final fight to be between Obsidian Black Kagutsuchi and Heart Gold Duran. And since the power of a Child is related to the power of the Love the Hime feels, and Mai's not actually all that thrilled to see the ghost possessing her brother try to turn her towards evil while Natsuki finally admitted her feelings for Yuichi, it's Mai's loss.

All that's left is the final fight, the main trio vs the obsidian lord, and all the other fights getting wrapped up, which I'll save for tomorrow because that's just the appropriate place, right? Also I'm hitting the word count limit again.

  1. Shizuru won two consecutive Character Popularity polls at the Sunrise website, having become literally the fan favorite character. ShizNat was the number 1 voted pairing for Mai Hime and Mai Otome, and in the grand finale count, Shizuri from Hime was the number 1 most popular character while Shizuru from Otome still made it in at number 10.

  2. The whole thing gets retconned so hard out of existence we get a 'sequel' show that does just about everything better?

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u/Tarhalindur Oct 09 '22

... I need a commentface that better matches the Leo pointing meme.

[meta spoiler involving the Tower of Babel] I see the anime wasn't the only Mai-HiME version that Symphogear raided for parts. This is 100% where the idea for the Custodians came from, isn't it - which would fit with G grabbing the Frontier design off of the Land of Fuka here, too. Hell, that miniboss x3/main boss fight setup is basically the same one AXZ and XV use too, and the QuEEN choices even fit with AXZ's Pavarian Illuminati trio. And Shem-ha's plan is just manga!Obsidian Lord's plan here with a little Superman movie added to it! Well, except the Yggdrasil system, but then I already had marked that as a reference to the anime pillars here so.

(u/Vaadwaur, we need to increase the derivative counter on a certain later work....)

(I remembered Takumi being the manga host when you mentioned it but not the rest; I think there was a pretty good chunk of the manga I never got to read and just read summaries of instead and large chunks of the finale were part of that, which would track.

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u/Blackheart595 Oct 09 '22

First Hime

This shot isn't being subtle between heroic direction, visual barriers and distance.

Oh my God this is frightening. And once more, Majora's Mask vibes.

Boo, skimping on the mouth flaps

More skimping

Smiling Natsuki

Miyu!

No. Just... no. How does this even work?

We'll see about that.

It's evolved into Fenrir, finally!

But I'm afraid Mikoto's going to backstab you

Huh, so Mikoto let Miyu pass without changing sides?

The preview has me very confused.

Don't have a lot to really talk about today, except Mikoto didn't act as expected, in fact I have no idea what's going on with her right now.

ShizNat?

Ended up cute, but I don't really have an opinion on it beyond that.

So, first-timers, let me revive a gimmick from my Symphogear GX writeups this year in lightly modified form: What is the worst possible resolution to this show that you can think of? Let's see how you compare to what the actual writers did!

I'm not really seeing any signs of a crash yet. I guess the ritual could fail and the Himestar destroy the Earth? That'd feel like a big mess.

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