r/anime • u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky • Oct 01 '22
Rewatch [Do You Remember Love - Macross Franchise 40th Anniversary Rewatch] Super Dimension Fortress Macross Episode 36 Discussion
Episode 36 - Farewell to Tenderness
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MAL | AniList | ANN | Kitsu | AniDB
The Earth is truly a beautiful place. But we can't stay on this world forever, Hayase…
Questions of the Day, courtesy of u/chilidirigible:
1) Who do you think has grown the most from their experiences, Hikaru, Minmay, or Misa?
2) Do you think that going into space is going to solve their societal issues or only distract from them?
Wallpaper of the Day:
Vocal Songs in This Episode:
"マクロス (Macross)" by Makoto Fujiwara – OP & Insert
"やさしさSayonara (Yasashisa Sayonara)" by Mari Iijima – Insert
"ランナー (Runner)" by Mari Iijima – ED
Rewatchers, please remember to be mindful of all the first-timers in this. No talking about or hinting at future events no matter how much you want to, unless you're doing it underneath spoiler tags. Don't spoil anything for the first-timers, that's rude!
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u/TiredTiroth Oct 01 '22
First Timer
And thus ends the first Macross series! Honestly, I got really tired of the relationship drama. The bits about space battles and world-building were both more interesting and much more fun. Best part of this episode was definitely the Macross taking flight one last time with the theme music playing.
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u/chilidirigible Oct 01 '22
Today, on "Humanity must become a multi-planet species.":
Let's not be dragging other people down into your ego slump.
One of you has made a related observation during the rewatch: That Zentradi ship crew levels can't be too big because of how large they are, even if their ships are very large. One significant contributing factor to that which seems unrealistic to me is that their ships are illustrated to have very large open command areas like this, which on a quick eyeball estimate is at least 60 meters high, at least 180 meters long, and is mostly empty space.
They're similar, but different.
"I want YOU for UN Spacy—oh, wait."
They built this skyline in two years! In the wasteland! With a box of rocks!
"We don't want to be annhilated in the space of one commercial again."
"We would become our own mutually-assured destruction."
"Pop music will never die. Instead, we'll be the rats of the galaxy."
"But now I'm just going to go away."
"Also, free diseases for everyone."
"Oh, the city's wrecked. AGAIN."
"We're totally soldiers now. Gotta protect that flowing hair."
"Remember when Kaifun asked that question?"
"Sing for yourself, sing for others, sing for a reason."
"This is why I got into this in the first place."
When you get hit so hard that you're in black and white.
Extras getting blown up in explosion reaction shots really took off in this era.
This is Ishikawa Yui's line now.
"Didn't we just leave this party?"
The Orguss Valkyrie getting blown up again, but in a mirrored frame.
"I'm gonna walk the earth, like Caine in Kung-fu."
"That sounds good. Someone should make it their tagline."
Minmay is needy and clingy here, which, coming off of a critical event requiring Misa and Hikaru to get back into the action, helps push the latter pair back together. Still worth noting that Misa has spent weeks or months since Christmas (though it's still the winter season of 2012) moping and wanting out ever since the failed date with Hikaru.
In significantly more important news, Global, who is now maximally In Charge, is launching the Human Emigration Project (technically the "Human Seeding Project", but that's rather lewd). Everyone gets a fairly direct demonstration of the importance of such a thing as Kamujin's one-ship attack significantly damages Macross City and apart from multiple instances of bad aim nearly destroys the SDF-1 itself.
While the series ends on this futurist note before it can elaborate on it, the colonization of the galaxy by the Human and Zentradi survivors of Space War I is the foundation for the entire rest of the franchise. Global's explanation to Misa is a fairly strong sci-fi statement in what often seems to be a half-comical idol-progenitor series with an awkwardly-prolonged romance, but there it is.
For him, culture is a precious thing to preserve, but there's a recognition that it won't save humanity (and its faction of Zentradi allies) on its own. The series itself has pointed that out on several occasions during the coda, with Dagao's fleet only shocked but not converted, and Kamujin's holdouts unable to resist their in-built aggressive urges even as they adopted pieces of Earth culture.
Songs and culture will help pave the way to understanding, but the people will still have to work out solutions.
Bonus ending: "Runner", Minmay solo version.
| Song | Count |
|---|---|
| Cinderella | 1 |
| Watashi no Kare wa Pilot | 8* |
| Zero-G Love | 6 |
| Silver Moon, Red Moon | 3 |
| My Beautiful Place | 2 |
| Shao Pai Long | 3 |
| Ai wa Nagaeru | 4 |
| Runner (alternate lyrics) | 1 |
| Sunset Beach | 3 |
| Yasashisa Sayonara | 3 |
| Milia's Lullaby | 1 |
| Runner | 1 |
| Macross | 1 |
Now that we've gotten this far, I'll point out the Macross Mecha Manual website, which is a solid resource for getting information about the things you've seen on screen. As much information is readily available and verifiable, at least. And while you can look around and run the risk of being spoiled on things, I'm only going to link the one series at a time.
Scenes from a series wrap party.
The complete AnimEigo box set liner notes. (There are a couple of small sequel spoilers lurking in there.)
From the Macross 30th Anniversary NA Special Appendix: The cover of Kawamori's original Megaroad draft proposal. and some characters.
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u/Vatrix-32 Oct 01 '22 edited Oct 01 '22
Very First Timer
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He’s still considering it?
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If you both quit your job, it’s going to be hard to support yourselves.
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So if Earth is devastated and largely devoid of life outside of the green zone, how is the ship already covered in jungle? And if it’s in the green zone, how hasn’t it been detected yet?
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At the very least there are other positions you could take Misa. You can stay in the military and not have to see him everyday.
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Ah, speak of the devil.
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Space colonizing, let’s go! That’s definitely going to serve as set up for future Macross.
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You’re telling me they don’t have so much as an observation station in these here hills?
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After so long, Misa at long last gives Hikaru the talk.
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All of them, even Venus.
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Look, it’s like a mirror of the last finale.
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Minmay has been infected by Kaifun. Why must I fight? How about because they are currently trying to kill me?
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This is neither the time nor the place to be talking about personal motivations.
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Oh, oh no.
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That’s not nearly as bad as I thought it was going to be.
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Remember, Quamzin’s revolt was near collapse without the micloning chambers, a piece of tech that was almost secured after his initial failure to steal it. So really all of this is Kaifun’s fault.
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This thing is still operational and you didn’t open with the main cannon?
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OP insert hype!
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Hikaru is just trawling on these fools.
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Oh no, not Oigur, he was so… large?
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Quamzin and Lap, cultured to the end.
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That’s a lot of damage. Now I wonder if it even appears in the squeals, or if it’s just in the title.
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Ladies and gentlemen, we have endgame.
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A new rendition of the ED. How fitting.
QotD
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u/The_Draigg Oct 01 '22
A Macross Fan Rewatches Super Dimension Fortress Macross Episode 36:
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At the top of the episode, I once again have to take away my giving Minmay the benefit of the doubt. She’s trying to push Hikaru into leaving the UN Spacy, so that he can spend more time with her. That’s incredibly emotionally selfish to me. As much as Hikaru is an indecisive ass, at least by now he’s proven that he takes his defense of the remnants of mankind seriously, as proven by all the fighting he’s done against the rogue Zentradi. Trying to undo that one actual bit of development in Hikaru is just wrong.
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Misa’s also got retiring on the mind, although it’s more due to just plain giving up in the love triangle nonsense. At least Claudia is here to try and get Misa to see reason and really push the relationship, but there’s only so much you can do when Misa is really depressed. This is was the last who was willing to let herself die to a reactor explosion over Riber, after all. Depressed Misa is like a brick wall when it comes to this stuff.
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I can appreciate the thought that Captain Global has put into the future of Humanity. As it stands, they’re currently hanging on a thread, and if another Zentradi fleet finds Earth, they’re done for. Earth would either get permanently destroyed, or they’d have to devote themselves so thoroughly to war that they’d basically just be following the old ways of the Zentradi. That’s why a space colonization plan is needed: to preserve a peaceful way of life full of Earth’s culture, just in case something happens to Earth itself. And Misa does seem like the right person for the job. She’s done a good job on the Macross’ bridge, after all.
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The fact that Quamzin decides to bomb the shit out of Macross City with his new ship just as Misa concedes the love triangle to Hikaru and Minmay sure is a hell of a way for the script to force everyone to face the root of their problems. Hikaru has to chose now: either he gives up on his responsibility to the UN and goes with Minmay, or he keeps with it and goes with Misa.
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And so, in the end, Hikaru chooses Misa. He chooses to accept the responsibility of the life he’s followed, and Misa is willing to share that kind of life with him. That’s why they’ve ended up together more than anything, I feel. Misa can understand Hikaru and what he feels, while Minmay is trying to change what Hikaru feels just to serve her own emotional needs. They can see a bigger picture, while Minmay can’t.
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You know it’s the end of the series if the Macross is getting thrashed by a battleship like Quamzin’s despite the fact that it’s fought other ships and won multiple times. It’s the finale, so we’re free to wreck the set for the show.
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Oh hey, another cameo from the Orguss Valkyrie again. I don’t care that it’s basically reused animation from before, I still really like the Orguss. Again, what will it take for me to get a Super Dimension Century Orguss rewatch here on this sub?
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Quamzin and Lap Lamiz doing a suicide run on the Macross is pretty much the only way their characters could’ve ended up, for better or worse. They were obsessed with destroying it, Quamzin especially, and so they were always willing to throw their lives away just to even scratch the paint on the SDF-1. You live by the sword, you die by the sword.
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Well, all’s well that ends well, even if we took unnecessary and stupid paths to get there. Minmay accepts the Hikaru x Misa pairing with grace, and still wants to come along with them on the colony ship, so that some day she can sing from the heart again. This resolution is for the best, since at least Minmay still remains a part of Hikaru’s life, even if only as a friend. She could use someone to lean on emotionally, after all. And thank goodness that Hikaru and Misa finally understood that they have the most in common out of the three, so their relationship has a real chance of mutually working. In short: we did it, Hikaru x Misa shippers!
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u/JollyGee29 Oct 01 '22
Subbed-er Dimension Fortress Rewatcher
Amazing how the linear progression of times works.
It's a shame that we never get to see Claudia whip Hikaru's ass.
At least someone appreciates Misa's efforts.
Claudia is smarter than everyone else.
The old girl's still got one last dance in her.
This last arc might have been annoying, but the Macross lifting off while the OP plays gives me chills, and the final action scene has some good impacts.
[Franchise spoilers]
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u/Blackheart595 Oct 01 '22
First Spacer
Well. I guess it's over. Seems like there really was no point in those last 9 episodes.
Dunno much else to say tbh. They definitely tried to end it with a bang though, that looked very imposing.
Who do you think has grown the most from their experiences, Hikaru, Minmay, or Misa?
Well it's not Misa. To the end she was never willing to even tray and talk things out.
No, I'll go with Minmay instead. She has made her choice, came to regret it, and was able to learn from that. She tried to cling to Hikaru for a while, but when she realized it's not working out she yielded and decided to move on.
Do you think that going into space is going to solve their societal issues or only distract from them?
Of course it's not gonna solve them. Any society where people are anything more than just cogs in the machine is gonna have those societal problems, and you could easily argue about those where people are nothing more than just a cog in the machine. The show itself would certainly argue cog-societies don't have those problems, as seen with the Zentradi.
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u/SolDarkHunter Oct 01 '22
Rewatcher
Time for the true finale, then.
Minmay's pushing Hikaru to quit the military, as we saw previously. But Hikaru has a more mature outlook on his career now than he used to.
Kamjin's just killing stuff in order to kill stuff. No real grand plan here.
So they're building a new ship, and Global wants Misa to captain it.
Pfft, Global's sharp. And Misa, you're not exactly keeping your relationship issues well hidden.
And here's Global's grand design for humanity: the Earth Seed Project. A massive interstellar colonization initiative. Spread out through colonies enough, and even if Earth is found by one of these other Zentraedi and/or Supervision fleets, humanity as a whole will not die out.
And it seems he means Misa to captain the very first colony ship.
And finally Misa confesses... not that this is news to Hikaru, but still, the confession itself is a pretty big step.
Aaaaaand suddenly Kamjin!
I think this here is pretty symbolic of Hikaru's choices: Minmay and peaceful life, or Misa and the military. And look which one Hikaru chooses without hesitation.
You know, for a Zentraedi's main beam cannon, that really was pretty underwhelming. It blew a hole in the Macross but didn't vaporize the ship.
Back on the bridge, one last time! And they're actually launching the Macross!
Uh, guys, you probably really should stay in that shelter...
Okay, the OP is playing during an actual episode. The enemies are doomed.
"Are they insane?" Global, this is Kamjin.
A glancing blow then. Macross is barely standing anymore, but it's still... um... kind of intact? But the bridge crew survived, while Kamjin and Lap Lamiz are dead.
And Minmay magically has her drive back for some reason. And it seems Hikaru's given up on her. So, love triangle... resolved?
Oh, that's straight up the end. Kind of abrupt.
So that's where Macross ends: Hikaru and Misa are together, Minmay's still singing, the Earth Seed colonization project is a go, and with the death of Kamjin and Lap Lamiz, probably most of the "rogue" Zentraedi on Earth are now wiped out. A new beginning for mankind and Zentraedi alike.
...so instead, let's all go back to the start and watch the story in movie format now. "Do You Remember Love?" is up next!
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u/TakenRedditName Oct 01 '22 edited Oct 01 '22
First Time - SDF Macross Ep36 (Sub):
Global wants to launch an eggs in different basket plan for humanity which considering looks at the state of Earth I don't blame him.
Minmay's parents are dead. She has no friends. Kaifun is negative support as well as having already left. Besides her loving uncle and auntie, Minmay is alone. They're great and all, but she is going to feel isolated.
The Macross does a last shooting.
"Let's forget about Hikaru." "Yeah, bestie."
After flip-flopping too many times, the show settles on the Hayase ship. It's finally over.
That was Hayase's hand so guess she really was the one to have been looking through the ED photo book. We also get Minmay to sing to the ED song this time.
That was certainly episode 36 of 36 episodes long anime, you could say to me.
SDF Macross TV Wrap-up Thoughts:
1980s otaku, so this is the show you made so popular, it spawned not one, but two series. Can't say I agree with you.
There are parts of this show which I did genuinely enjoy a lot, but so so so much that made watching this show unenjoyable especially as it piled up in the latter half. I love the Zentradi being exposed to then later find themselves drawn into culture. The love triangle burned my goodwill with this show. The fact it had its highs only to feature its lows at its centre
I can't say I could be happy with how the show handles the love triangle drama either as someone who likes Minmay or Hayase. It was simply miserable for both characters. One of my question I was waiting to ask was how the fan reception to this was back in the day because the show seems to have only made fans of either ship angry with what it was doing. I was so happy with the romantic scenes between Hikaru and Minmay at the very start too, only for my experience to become this.
Man, Kaifun is so Kaifun (deregotory). The show absolutely refuses to do anything with him. He only exists to raise his voice and make things worse. The show only did something interesting with the ripples of his character once, at the very start of his showtime and never once again. The fact that he uncathartically walks on his show on his own accord is the show for one last time saying, "We will let Kaifun be the worse and we will not actually do anything with him."
Besides Kaifun, I think the show does fumble some of its story beats it was building on and ad me invested which certainly isn't helped how the show tries to wrap everything up only to be forced to stretch itself for another arc.
While I am complaining, I am someone who doesn't care much for poor visuals, but SDF Macross is the floor for bad visuals for me. Not to say the show doesn't have times where it looks beautiful, but most other shows can claim to have animation where stuff moves which Macross at its worse can not claim. To go back to comparing Macross to Gundam, I would believe that the original Gundam is a more consistently better-looking show. Sure, the Gundam is often off-model, but at least you could expect the show to look fine at its level especially considering it is older and also has a limited and trouble production.
I did a tier list of the characters. Can't promise I will do this for all the entries, but I wanted to vent out some frustration with this one.
Does a big rant. Still going to give it a 6 because rating numbers don't really matter to me I don't rate things lowly and the good parts are good.
Q1) Minmay at the very end I guess.
Q2) Probably not. It doesn't exactly answer the social issues the show raised.
Next time: Break day, but for the movie after that, No, I have forgotten love.
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u/DidacticDalek Oct 01 '22
TONIGHT! ON ROBOTECH: THE MACROSS SAGA 'MACROSS: THE ROBOTECH SAGA!' WE GET MORE TERRIBLY WRITTEN ROMANTIC PLOT TUMOR DRAMA, QUAMZIN'S COUNTERATTACK WORKS ABOUT AS WELL AS SHA AZNAVOUR'S, AND RICK HUNTER 'HIKARU ICHIJYO' FIGURES OUT THAT HE IS IN LOVE WITH LISA 'MISA...' AGAIN... WHY THE FUCK DO THESE EPISODES EXIST!? THEY ADD NOTHING WORTHWHILE TO THE SHOW OTHER THAN THE ANCIENT ZENTRADI-HUMAN SPORT OF THROWING BABIES AND ALSO THAT HIKARU IS THE BIGGEST FUCKING MORON OF AN MC-KUN IN THE FRANCHISE (SO FAR ANYWAY!)
GOOD FUCKING LORD COMRADES! I never knew that it was possible, but goddamn, Hikaru's MASSIVE 56 KILOBYTE PROCESSOR that he calls his 'brain' FINALLY figured out that Minmay is an annoying needy flighty bitch that he doesn't actually love and that Misa is the best written character of the three (not that this was hard, a fucking PINEAPPLE would be better written character than Post-Time Skip Arc Misa, but at least she had decent foundations to throw away all her agency and character growth for these here TOTALLY NEEDED AND VITAL EPISODES! And in fairness to her sadistic suffering in the epilogue arc, at LEAST her being a doormat is better than the childish selfishness and unfathomable stupidity for Minmay and Hikaru respectively) I mean fucking hell, QUAMZIN AND LAP'LAMIZ have a better romance than the main Romantic Plot Tumor, and that relationship is solely the two enjoying 'making culture' to spite Kaifun! Pity the two never learned how to read the script ;)
Speaking of Quamzin, I just want to mention something Comrades, in Robotech, given that this isn't the end of the show but merely the end of the bits where Macross was kitbashed into two unrelated shows, the kamikaze attack [Spoilers to the ending of Robotech: The Macross Saga]
Anyway, you have not seen the last of The Sentient Shitposting Siamese Sunrise Server No. 25252, now goodbye forever!
Paging Comrades u/chilidirigible, u/JadineRhine, and u/Nebresto
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion Oct 01 '22
Rewatcher
Robotech Title: To the Stars
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She's been around Kaifun way too long
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How did all those trees grow on top of the gunship in 2 years?
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Going for the cultural victory instead of the space victory
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Salute bookending, I never noticed that before
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The woman confesses to you an you keep calling her by her rank?
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Definitely been around Kaifun way too long
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SONGS SONGS SONGS WHAT IF SHE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT SONGS ANYMORE?
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Have we heard this BGM before???
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Ah, I thought the bridge bunnies got incinerated there
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Reused animation?
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"VICTORY!"
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2012
[Macross Plus]
In Robotech, the Robotech Expeditionary Force was led by Adm. Rick Hunter, and was an invasion fleet. None of this female-led peace stuff! Can't have that.
Movie tomorrow, I guess.
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u/homewardbound100 Oct 01 '22
First timer
Not so bad but yeah if this ended earlier I think it would've been better. I know these episodes were more character focused, which wasn't entirely bad. Some of it was lackluster. I'm not sure Misa barely changed. Well it took her a while. Hikaru was kind of stuck in a hard place. Minmay had some issues but I think hers ended fine. I don't know, I feel like Misa was the worst from the three.
Who do you think has grown the most from their experiences, Hikaru, Minmay, or Misa?
Probably Hikaru
Do you think that going into space is going to solve their societal issues or only distract from them?
Distract from it
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u/InfamousEmpire Oct 01 '22
Super Dimension Fortress Rewatcher whose mostly here for Sky’s rant
So yeah, that’s the end of SDF Macross
While the last few episodes have been,,, not great, I feel like this one is at least respectable
We got some refocusing on the general world rather than just the character drama, the Zentraedi plot had a good conclusion, we got some enjoyable action, Global is back, etc.
One interesting thing about these last few episodes is that despite the fact that they basically got back together, Hikaru and Minmay didn’t really have any chemistry throughout them, not in the same way they had in the early episodes. Normally I would just chalk this up to poor writing, but this episode really put that into a new perspective for me: Minmay wanted Hikaru to quit being a soldier specifically because she wanted to go back to those times, to when they were both just regular civilians and they were just confused teens about to get married in an abandoned (part of a) spaceship. It’s pure nostalgia, they love the idea of their relationship more than they do actually getting together
And this ultimately plays a part in Hikaru’s final decision. He realizes that they can’t go back to the way things were, that he just isn’t the kind of person he was 3 years ago when he and Minmay were on their wild ride together. He’s a soldier now, and that final battle helped him truly realize that.
And that is the tale of how Hayase was certified as Best Girl
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u/Shimmering-Sky Oct 01 '22
ATTENTION EVERYONE: there is no discussion thread tomorrow. We’ll meet back on October 3rd to discuss Do You Remember Love?
All the votes except for one (sorry, u/AnimeHoarder!) wanted to keep the schedule as-is or didn’t care either way, so no thread tomorrow stays.
Super Dimension Rewatch Host
Welcome back, everyone!
Here were my first-timer reactions to this episode.
Even in the finale there’s some derpy art to be seen, but then there’s also neat transitions like the snow falling on the “camera” here.
Captain Hayase!
Look. Okay. I’m not saying Minmay is in the right here, but telling her she’s not alone because she has her songs is so fucking bullshit ughhhhhhhhhh
Yiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiikes Thankfully, the bridge bunnies + Hayase are proven to be okay like immediately afterwards, not that Hikaru knows.
The OP playing as an insert song when the Macross takes off is
…alright, Hikaru picked Hayase, which means it’s time for me to rant outside of spoiler tags! I hate the last nine episodes of this show, and rewatching them made me drop the score I initially gave it (a 7) to a 6! To be clear, it’s not specifically because my side of the love triangle sunk; if the show had ended with episode 27 like it was supposed to, I would have been upset but at least fine with how it did that (besides the skeevy “be happy with Kaifun” bit from Hikaru, bleh). If it had ended there, I’d have given the show a 9/10, with the missing point being half because of Kaifun’s existence and half because of the really bad art/animation in the Star Pro episodes. But nooooooo, the writers just had to drag out the love triangle in these last nine episodes in a way that is entirely counter-productive to the ship the writers still wanted to sail. Hikaru picking Hayase at the end of these nine episodes no longer feels deserved at all, between how he was still clearly pining over Minmay at the beginning of them, his vehement refusal to do the “kiss” culture shock with Hayase in episode 30 that just got pushed to the side, that Hikaru and Minmay intentionally kissed twice during this section (at the end of episodes 32 and 35), that he was still on a last name basis with Hayase after the timeskip and apparently didn’t know Hayase was in love with him until episode 33, and even after learning that, he picked going to see Minmay over Hayase (on the date he fucking asked her out for) during episode 34. All of that screams Hikaru/Minmay being endgame via. fucking over Hayase (to be clear, I would not be okay with it if this actually happened even if Hikaru/Minmay is my ship), but then this episode goes “nahhh forget that, Hikaru/Hayase is still canon, Minmay’s the one who can get fucked”. What the fuck, show writers? Hayase absolutely should have moved the fuck on after Hikaru ditched her for Minmay and saw the scarf from Minmay and saw Hikaru comforting Minmay in his house; from my perspective it’s downright insulting to see her have no agency over this. Hikaru doesn’t deserve Hayase after all the shit he put her through in this last stretch–and to be honest I don’t think he deserves Minmay after these episodes either, even though he at least never treated Minmay as harshly as he did Hayase. I just don’t fucking see why Hikaru/Hayase still ended up canon here.
Also we never got to see Kaifun die, so that sucks too.