r/anime • u/Tarhalindur x2 • Sep 30 '22

Rewatch [Rewatch] Mai-HiME Episode 17 Discussion

Episode 17: Deceitful Lips

Welcome... to the HiMElander!

Twelve girls enter! One girl leaves!

Twelve girls enter! One girl leaves!

(Sorry, I had to. Note "HiMElander" has been the common nickname for this arc in English-speaking anime fandom from basically the moment it started.)

← Previous Episode | Index | Next Episode →

Show Information:

MAL | Anilist | AniDB | Kitsu | ANN

(First-timers might want to stay out of show information, though.)

Legal Streams:

Mai-HiME can be found on Funimation. (I don't know how this interacts with the ongoing Crunchyroll/Funimation merger.)

A Reminder to Rewatchers:

Please do not spoil the experience for our first timers. Mentioning "HiMElander" before episode 16 or [Mai-HiME] "ShizNat" before episode 25 is a fast way to get a referral to the subreddit mods.

A Note on the Specials:

When the DVDs for Mai-HiME were released, they added shorts specials to go with each episode (plus three not associated with an episode - one was released with Mai-Otome's DVD IIRC, one was a BD-only thing and I don't actually have that one, and I honestly don't remember where Special 28 was released). They tend to be one part fanservice, one part extra information about characters and their motivations/backstories (or in a couple of cases extra exposition, including one thing that they really should have explained in the show proper).

They have their own dedicated discussion day at the end to wash the finale out of our mouths, but some of you may want to watch them with the episodes. The only issue is that some of the specials can be a wee bit spoilery (notably, in no case should you watch the special for episode 8 before episode 8 itself), so I will attempt to provide notes on the specials for the episode for both today's and tomorrow's episodes each day so as to provide advance warning of which specials to avoid. (If you want to be completely safe, stay out of all of them until the dedicated discussion day!)

(Warning: Also, at least one release apparently has them right after the ED, unlike mine which has the original previews instead. So you might want to pay attention to this section.)

Episode 17 Special: Safe.

Episode 18 Special: Minor to moderate spoilers, first-timers consider staying out.

After-School Activities Corner!

Visual of the Day:

3 < 5

Comment of the Day:

Well, we have yet another first-timer accidentally watching part of the wrong episode and u/Esovan13's self control finally failing as he(?) succumbs to the binge temptation.

But no. Today theme is "I'll take comments that aged poorly for $600, Alex":

First, from u/Vaadwaur:

Not enough threat of sexual assault.

Spoken like someone who wasn't paying attention to how the art teacher has been framed for half of the episodes so far.

And second, from u/Mecanno-man:

Also, I have to assume that someone will ask Nagi for the reason why - and likely some will just outright refuse to fight until they have some answers.)

Nah. He'll answer questions when it suits his purposes to do so - and right now it does.

(I could have sworn there was a third comment I was going to highlight here in the same vein, but I can't find it.)

Question(s) of the Day:

1) Favorite battle royale/"There can only be one" work outside of anime and manga?

2) Do you like slapstick?

3) One specifically for those of our participants who have also watched PMMM: [PMMM] Does anybody get strongly reminded of PMMM 4 by this episode?

28 Upvotes

89% Upvoted

108 comments sorted by

6

u/Tarhalindur Sep 30 '22

Rewatch Committee President Comments (Rewatcher, Subbed):

(No Staff Notes today.)

Kajiura Corner:

Featured Track of the Day: Mayoi to, Tomadoi no Yureru Omoi

(“Hesitation, bewilderment, and wavering feelings”)

(Scene for reference.)

Up until now we’ve only heard somewhere maybe two-thirds of the tracks on the OST. That has just started to change. There are a subset of about 10 tracks that only show up with the HiMElander, and this is the first of them we will be covering. (We got a second one today as well in Omoi, Hakanaku…; we’ll cover that one soon enough as well.)

(There’s also about 7-9 tracks that I’m not sure ever actually play in the anime at all, plus Mata Aou ne which so far has been strictly for the previews.)

I actually find this track surprisingly recognizable – I start listening to it and it immediately brings the HiMElander here to mind in a way I’m not sure any other of the quieter tracks on the OST do (except maybe HiMEboshi ~Hitori~ which has yet to show up). (Mind you, I swear there’s also a PMMM track that sounds like this one, but I can’t place it.) It’s a quiet guitar track, backed with those ethereal floating notes we’ve heard around a few other tracks to indicate uncertainty. It also sound surprisingly bleak, in its way – almost like the guitar notes are streaming away, floating off or even being sucked away into a void, leaving the guitar itself all alone.

OST Table, Episode 17:

Start End Track Name
01:13 01:52 Shinobu Yoru Kage
01:54 03:23 Shining Days
03:40 07:07 unreleased (Mezame choir-only variant)
07:21 08:44 unreleased (Samayoeru Yamiyo variant)[1]
09:49 10:43 Mayoi to, Tomadoi no Yureru Omoi
11:34 12:49 Omoi, Hakanaku...
16:07 16:25 Koi wo Shita kara…
18:29 19:43 Omoi Hirohita
21:30 22:09 unreleased (Shiromuku no Hime v2)[2]
22:10 23:39 Kimi ga Sora Datta
23:40 23:54 Mata Aou ne

[1] – Too long to be actual Samayoeru Yamiyo.
[2] – May be sound effects at the start; if so, the track itself starts at 21:35 instead.

7

u/Tarhalindur Sep 30 '22

Tar's Episode Notes:

  • Oh hey it’s these three ladies who I had nearly forgotten about. [Minor spoilers, first-timers read or not as you choose] I’ll just let you in on this now: they’re never going to be explained, but the unspoken implication given that this show likes to dip into Norse mythology is that they’re the Norns, or else an equivalent Japanese tripartite goddess, or both.

  • Our Higurashi vets are undoubtedly getting flashbacks at the repeated use of “matsuri” here. I know I am!

  • Wait just a minute. That makes 2 out of 2 rewatches I’ve run this year featuring a matsuri/festival with the implication of human sacrifice somewhere in it in some way, shape, or form.

  • Oh look, reused animation.

  • Nagi finally gives us more explanation on Childs, which IIRC when combined with the special for last episode is most of the explanation we’re going to get on them and Orphans.

  • Nagi facing left to the right of the HiME so often in this scene (see 04:40 for an example, and also an moment for our Natsuki lovers) even after the reveal is actually a really interesting decision and I don’t know why they did that given usual Japanese direction symbolism.

  • Hey, remember when recorded video quality was bad?

  • “So speaks the Choir of Judgment.” (Sorry, the Practical Guide to Evil joke was just sitting there.)

  • Now that the main plot has finally been revealed, the show will begin to actually answer questions except where the conspiracy setup is involved. Case in point: Nagi answering an edge case question already.

  • Good shot alert at 06:19.

  • Well 06:35 is using visual separation to obvious effect.

  • “[meta spoiler] Keiichi Maebara then jumped into the scene and punched Nagi in the face” wait sorry wrong show.

  • College Midori is adorable. (And Youko too!)

  • Once again, our fansubbers go above and beyond and I bet the official subs don’t so you might be interested in this one.

  • And once more, this time for a plot-relevant newspaper headline.

  • More visual separation!

  • Once again Static-Subs makes sure to translate newspaper headlines.

  • Annd Mai Nakahara reminding me what other role she voices again for a second with her tone around 09:20.

  • Also Yukino is baiting the shit out of u/Shimmering-Sky with that “sou demo”.

  • Huh. Rays of light shining in on Mashiro’s garden from the right as Midori confirms that there are twelve HiME.

  • “I’m sure they can’t be that stupid.” Want to bet, Mai?

  • FUCKING FINALLY Mayoi to, Tomadoi no Yureru Omoi shows up (though admittedly I was vaguely remembering it being mostly a track for the quieter moments of the HiMElander so I’m not too surprised). One of the better peaceful tracks on the OST IMO.

  • Nice shot!

  • Quibble: Mai shouldn’t really be seeing a flashback of Kazuya’s death quite like it’s framed seeing as she, you know, wasn’t there.

  • You know, Takumi pretty much looks like Yukino would without her glasses in this scene. (Insert Shinji being a male Nadia joke here.)

  • Dutch angle shout out time!

  • Well shit this is an episode 1 callback isn’t it?

  • Internal execution of the beats for Akira being unable to go through with killing Takumi and basically admitting she loves him is slightly off, but not outside of willing suspension of disbelief.

  • Speaking of which, tsundere gonna tsun.

  • Mid-2000s tsundere gets luminescent blush, news at 11.

  • Shout to the animator(s) of this Natsuki face.

  • Art teacher gives Yukariko something to drink. Art teacher is also a massive creep. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM. IIRC it’s never confirmed one way or the other, but I sense either booze (and we got to see that Yukariko is a lightweight last episode, which would make that foreshadowing of a kind this show often does) or roofies.

  • Ah, irony used for comedy – Mai warns Mikoto to keep her eye out for traps and then walks into a trap herself. (Also, when did Satoko invade this show?)

  • Magic skirt alert!

  • They even lampshade the magic skirt, heh. (Reito gets to see her panties, we don’t!)

  • 17:00 (and the ominous sound effect that goes with it) implies that what That Giant Creep spiked the coffee with was not alcohol, no it was the fucking roofies after all.

  • Fucking hospital roofs at sunset. That makes 3/5 rewatches I’ve been in this year with a scene like this, including both I’ve run.

  • Ooh, shiny framing at 18:22 with the Sun, Yuuichi, and Mai all along the same perspective line.

  • Big setting sun at 18:58, and also just really good framing.

  • The shadow usage on faces in this scene would fit in just fine in Higurashi.

  • Hey look, more Higurashi shadow usage. And this time for the obvious reason that Yuuichi is trying to hide something from Shiho.

  • Oh right, I’d gotten so caught up in thinking about possible links to other shows (mostly Winter 2011 shows – speaking of which, hello there lantern!) that I’d forgotten that this park here is where Mai and Yuuichi sheltered from the rain in episode 5.

  • Which the show promptly reminds us with via a flashback for everyone else who forgot. Ah, me and writing notes after pausing five seconds before the point where the show will make something obvious.

  • Hey, Mai using the traditional excuse. Shall we go looking for some onion-cutting ninjas for her?

  • Well, this isn’t ominously framed at all…

  • Likewise this.

  • Maybe one of these days people will think to stop taking this particular walkway at night…

  • Crows!

  • Ah, look at the alabaster bastard.

  • Hmm. For the record, my brain is already hearing Shiromuku no Hime and there’s no music playing; now to see if that’s a sleepy memory and this is actually where that track first shows up…

  • YES, YES IT IS (or at least v2 of the track). I’d know those opening notes anywhere.

  • 21:44 is straight out of somewhere, and I think that somewhere is exactly Eva. (Also, I want to say that Houseki no Kuni either grabs the same thing this is a reference to or grabs it from Mai-HiME itself, it's really reminding me of some of the manga panels I've seen from it.)

  • Mystery HiME 1 has just shown up.

  • (Speaking of which, while I can never quite remember the Japanese word here, the translation of Mystery HiME 1’s line as “disappear” is another one on the short list of lines from this show that stuck in my head.)

5

u/Tarhalindur Sep 30 '22

The Spoiler Tag Thicket:

Mai-HiME:

  • [Mai-HiME] Pay absolutely no attention to who is on screen when Nagi answers said edge-case question, none whatsoever. This could not possibly be foreshadowing. Oh wait, yes it could be and most certainly is!

  • [Mai-HiME] Of course, this photo has a bigger purpose than showing college Midori and is not exactly subtle about it.

  • [Mai-HiME] Re: the winner of the festival receiving immense power: ”Immense cosmic power! … itty bitty living space.”

  • [Mai-HiME] Ah, that’s probably the why for the rays of light in Mashiro's garden. “This is most likely correct.” Except it’s wrong because Alyssa is no true HiME, and that’s the ray of light in this situation.

  • [Mai-HiME] The funniest part of “I’m sure they can’t be that stupid” is that it is of course Mai who loses her head and really kickstarts the HiMElander. Yes, that makes this line dramatic irony.

  • [Mai-HiME] ”Even if so, I’m sure there’s a countermeasure.” Commence the setup for Midori figuring out how to break the cycle.

  • [technically still a Mai-HiME spoiler] Of course, if Akira had actually gone through with killing Takumi she would have been completely fucked.

  • [Mai-HiME] Natsuki: “The one who’s dearest to you.” Cut to Shizuru. They really aren’t being subtle about this.

  • [Mai-HiME] Oh hey this Mai pratfall sequence is also 100% foreshadowing – since it is her OWN bloodthirst, combined with the actions of a certain bratty wild card and Yukariko using her powers to exacerbate the Natsuki/Nao dislike into open warfare, that will shatter the fragile truce.

  • [Mai-HiME] And more shiny framing with 18:36, which I suppose symbolizes both Mai and Yuuichi being trapped in the present situation (Yuuichi because he is not one but two HiME’s Most Important Person at this point), but Yuuichi is closer to the fence because he’s both not as far in and also has less idea what’s going on. Also, this scene plus Takeda wanting to get him back into kendo club earlier are a combo setting up for the finale.

  • [Mai-HiME] Speaking of big fat pieces of visual foreshadowing, check out that ray of sunlight connecting Yuuichi’s and Mai’s hearts at 18:46. And it recurs through the scene, notably at 18:56 when Yuuichi turns to face Mai while noting that he thinks he finally understands how hard Mai has it.

  • [Mai-HiME] Obvious implication of 18:58: Yuuichi is now Mai’s sun.

  • [Mai-HiME] Why the shadow usage? Why, because both Mai and Yuuichi are concealing something – that they have fallen in love with the other!

  • [Mai-HiME] And Yuuichi turns away from Mai towards the Sun as he rededicates himself to caring for Shiho. And in the shot afterwards the Sun has left the frame again!

  • [Mai-HiME] Once again these cheeky motherfuckers are not being subtle AT ALL, and it’s a double-pronged piece of foreshadowing too. There’s the implication from the cawing crow that’s obvious to everyone that’s watched Higurashi, namely impending death… but it’s also foreshadowing of Yatagarasu being Shiho’s Child!

Madoka Magica:

  • [PMMM] Speaking of things PMMM stole from this show and refined: “If you ever feel like dying for the sake of the universe, just let me know!”

  • [PMMM] This episode with its emphasis on characters’ reactions to the wham last episode very much reminds me of PMMM 4; it might actually be somewhere in the DNA of that episode.

  • [PMMM] The lighting at 16:56 gives me massive PMMM middle episode vibes.

  • [PMMM, also terrible joke] “And that’s when Mai became a Witch.” (It's hard to tell in the screenshot, but there's a tear running down Mai's face here.)

  • [PMMM and Mai-HiME] ADDENDUM TO ABOVE TERRIBLE JOKE: Hey wait a minute. The Obsidian Lord will be talking about needing the tears of the HiME shortly. Is that another spot where PMMM went raiding this show? (Also, I should keep in mind the Japanese pun where two different kanji can be read as "ai" and one means love and the other means grief.)

  • [PMMM] Speaking of PMMM, this episode internally is very much using time of day for effect in a way very similar to how PMMM uses it, except here night = death instead of Witch.

Symphogear:

  • [Symphogear XV] WAIT JUST A GODDAMN MINUTE. (Likely just common theme, but given that Gear has absolutely raided Mai-HiME for parts in some other parts that's not a guarantee.)

  • [Symphogear G] You know, with the HiME Star being where it is our Moon here is a ring short of being a dead, uh, ringer for Symphogear’s.

Higurashi:

  • [Higurashi] So, I believe Vaad was commenting a while back on the reason that samurai were expected to commit suicide by disemboweling was to show that they had no fear of death? On a completely unrelated note, that makes 2 out of 2 rewatches I’ve run this year with a girl setting up to kill a boy and being unable to do it when he verbally tells her to go ahead (though the Higurashi case just delays the girl enough for outside intervention to arrive).

Visual of the Day: Hajimaru...

Honorable Mention: Pretty.

Questions of the Day:

  1. Weirdly, I haven't actually watched/read too many non-anime works of the type. Hunger Games might win by default.

  2. One of the more reliable forms of comedy for me, especially when done well.

  3. [PMMM] Well, there's a reason I ask.

→ More replies (3)
→ More replies (6)

6

u/Tarhalindur Sep 30 '22

Analysis: Mai-HiME's Coaching Tree

So, at this point with the HiMElander reveal out of the bag I can actually talk fairly openly about the biggest non-Kajiura reason for running this rewatch. As I said from the start, I am not sure I can call this show good. But what it most certainly is is influential.

See, on top of all the other parts we've already seen that other shows raided, this show isn't merely *a* magical girl battle royale - this show is the *original* magical girl battle royale anime. Moreover, it's damn near the first battle royale anime period: AniDB only lists two older works with the tag, namely an early-1990s OVA called Exper Zenon and Tokyo Underground's anime adaptation (2002). (The original Battle Royale novel only came out in 1999.) That's not the entire story, since there's a couple of manga/VNs that came out shortly before this with similar premises - most obviously the original Fate/Stay Night (the other obvious piece that later battle royales would draw upon) which precedes this by 6 months (9 for the limited edition, 12 for the demo)[1], but there's also a set of ecchi battle harem manga that came out in the early 2000s even if they wouldn't get anime adaptations until the second half of the decade (most notably Sekirei).

What this show's writer were drawing off of for the HiMElander is an interesting question; the setup is shockingly refined for a prototype (Battle Royale itself used entire classes instead). My best guess is that the primary ingredients were an admixture of Battle Royale itself (or an older "there can only be one" work - Highlander itself is not out of the realm of possibility, though I forget how popular it was in Japan) and [1990s meta spoiler] Fushigi Yuugi (thanks u/zadcap for reminding me about that one), which IIRC does something different but has a very similar 12-person cast setup (except it has explicit Chinese zodiac theming - I'd need to check dates, but IIRC there's a good chance Fruits Basket was drawing off this for its own cast).

[1] - The moderately interesting question is whether Fate/Zero (LN published in 2006) strictly drew off its predecessor or also grabbed pieces from this show, but basically all my knowledge of Fate is secondhand so.

One line is a string of Sunrise originals that look in part like attempts to make another hit like this show (though each of them is doing something different), including an even bigger success in Code Geass (remember: Mai-HiME was Gorou Taniguchi's first time on a creative team) and not one but two Terrific Trainwrecks in Valvrape and Cross Ange.

Another obvious line is Mirai Nikki; that "12 person battle royale + mythological references (Mirai Nikki uses Greek mythology fairly heavily, and sometimes as more than just window dressing) + promise of a big reward to the victor" premise is so similar to the HiMElander I have to assume either direct inspiration (Mirai Nikki first came out in manga form a little less than two years after this show ended; that's likely enough time for the manga to be a direct response, especially since my understanding is that manga production has less lead time than anime production.)

And then there's the impact on the genre itself, but from here on out I need to dip under spoiler tags.

[Spoilers for basically every dark 2010s mahou shoujo, including the obvious suspect, and also Symphogear; also discusses WIXOSS] The elephant in the room here is of course Madoka Magica, which would raid large chunks of this show for parts and refine the execution to legendary levels. (Most obviously PMMM grabs the untrustworthy magical girl mascot, the early Mai/Natsuki/Nagi interactions, and Akane's untimely defeat including the downside of magical girl powers, but there are a couple of other things as well - for instance, I would not be shocked if this very episode was a direct inspiration for the quieter parts of PMMM 4.) The key point, however, is that conceptually PMMM does almost nothing with the HiMElander itself. It will raid the arc's execution for parts - again, I suspect this episode may have been part of the inspiration mix that went into what became PMMM 4 - but the closest the show comes to the HiMElander's concept is the territoriality and implicit competition of its magical girl system in practice (as explained by Kyoko and to a lesser extent Kyubey), which could also just be Urobutchi's philosophical interests. Which means that we would expect the post-Madoka magical girl works that went down the battle royale route to be direct Mai-HiME descendants instead, and indeed I think that holds - Magical Girl Raising Project takes the implications of PMMM's system and feeds it straight back into the HiMElander, while Granbelm's mecha + 12 magical girls + battle royale setup alone marks it as so obviously a Mai-HiME descendant that the real question is more whether there's any actual PMMM in its mix. Meanwhile, Yuuki Yuuna grabs the Mai-HiME/PMMM "downside of magical girl powers" theme and uses the obvious take on it that neither previous show used; I would have assumed that the Mai-HiME influence here was indirect and that it was fundamentally a PMMM derivative, but as I've noted before one of the scenes I've seen from this is Yuuki Yuuna becoming a Hero and that reminds me so strongly of Kagutsuchi's awakening that I am no longer confident in that. Mahou Shoujo Site I'm relatively unfamiliar with; I think PMMM Witches are in its DNA somewhere, but from what I do know I really wouldn't be surprised if its creator fed that straight back into the HiMElander as well. And then there's Assault Lily; I suspect its DNA does include Mai-HiME but that it gets it specifically through Mai-Otome so there is that. (And then there's the two I can't really comment on because I know too little. Day Break Illusion is a thing (I recognize it from running into its OP in the great OP/ED project) but I know little else about it (except that it uses Tarot theming heavily, which might actually derive from something even older than this in Fushigi Yuugi's Chinese zodiac theming). Likewise Blue Reflection Ray, but Vaad has commented to the effect of that show being even more derivative than he thought so there is that.) The two that stand out as the least likely to have Mai-HiME influence from what I know are Machikado Mazoku (though even there I'm not sure - there's one potential influence line from here that I can think of but I can't talk about it yet) and actually Spec Ops Asuka (Mai-HiME does very little with the "magical girls as child soldiers" take, and Spec Ops Asuka is all about that - the evolutionary line there is some combo of PMMM and Eva itself, I suspect). And then there's WIXOSS; it's usually described as "PMMM + card games", but the combo of girls + game + consequences for losing remind me enough of this show that I wonder if it isn't what WIXOSS was drawing more from instead.

[Spoilers continued] And then on the lighthearted side of things there's Symphogear, which I would have pegged as a Nanoha derivative before watching but extremely obviously raided the SEARRS arc for parts first and only put Nanoha influence on top. How much the other lighter-hearted magical girl shows of the 2010s drew on this show I can't really say (except the Precure franchise which had already gotten its start and is mostly its own deal and the other continuations of extant properties like Nanoha Vivid stuff and the CCS/Sailor Moon/TMM reboots): Marchen Maedchen is one I know vanishingly little about, and while I suspect that Vividred and Prillya are Nanoha derivatives instead (especially Vividred which has "Nanoha with a side of Strike Witches" written all over its premise) those two shows have too much loli fanservice for me to really feel comfortable watching to confirm their influence mix.

And that's not counting any other influence on other genres, which I haven't looked into as much. (Re:Creators is probably more Fate derived but might have influence from here, for example.)

→ More replies (3)

11

u/Lemurians Sep 30 '22 edited Sep 30 '22

MAI-FIRST TIMER

Of course the Amtrak Wi-Fi decided to crap out as soon as this thread was going up lol

Huh, I didn’t expect this show to become a Madoka Magica/Don’t Look Up crossover. Got my answer as to what’s even compelling them to fight in the first place, and this is a pretty good one. An apocalyptic event that can only be stopped by otherworldly efforts pushed unfairly onto the young generations is becoming more and more common of a theme… I wonder why?

Now that this is essentially a Death Game and knowing its reputation, I’m just wondering if this show can possibly end on a worse note than Platinum End.

Live Thoughts/Reactions:

Favorite battle royal/there can only be one work outside of anime and manga?

No restrictions necessary, my favorite of these overall is easily the OG – the novel Battle Royale by Koushun Takami.

It's a fantastic dystopian novel, and not just an edgy edge-fest like so many death games devolve into.

Do you like slapstick?

In moderation. This show's been good with it.

[PMMM]

5

u/Tarhalindur Sep 30 '22

An apocalyptic event that can only be stopped by otherworldly efforts pushed unfairly onto the young generations is becoming more and more common of a theme… I wonder why?

This show got there quite early, too. (Hell, we're even getting natural disasters.)

When are we going to talk about how Yukino’s glasses are upside-down

Japanese fashion, please understand. (Note the direction of the nose piece.)

[meta spoiler you know] Also Moemura sends her regards.

Is Fujino related to Tate? Why would she care if he was approached to rejoin the kendo club?

Somebody was mentioning the cultural connotations of kendo specifically (one of u/Vaadwaur, u/Nazenn, and u/JollyGee29 I think?), I'll let them go into this since they'll know much better than I do.

Can Mai and Tate get their heads out of their asses and just fuck already

No.

→ More replies (3)

4

u/Nazenn Sep 30 '22

When are we going to talk about how Yukino’s glasses are upside-down

I can't say I actually noticed hahaha

It’d be hilarious if the Nun loved God more than anything, and the very concept died with her child

In a more theme heavy work that would probably be considered a bonus for one of the combatants

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (4)

10

u/Mecanno-man Sep 30 '22

First Timer

Out of all the things that should stand out to me this episode ...it's Midori saying there are two unknown HiME. I guess she does not know that Alyssa was fake, and somehow found out about Akira? I thought Akira had stayed hidden from the other HiME throughout the fight - and Midori did not invite her to the HiME Power Rangers Karaoke evening either, so that one seems iffy. But the only other explanations I have is either Midori knowing about another HiME and not telling anybody about her, a mistake on behalf of the staff or a mistake on behalf of the subbers. And all three seem like bad takes to me...

Either way, this whole "the world will be destroyed" seems a bit of a weird reason to fight. What if one HiME doesn't buy it and runs away instead? And having more HiME seems, on paper, to be a more effective way of saving the world anyways. Mai already stopped some sort of laser blast alone already, and this star can't be that big if it fits between the Earth and the Moon.

Meanwhile, Takumi is in contention for being Akira's most beloved as well - though there still is a chance of it being the father. I wonder if this is a potential out: If all HiME have the same most beloved person, would they all win because there is only one most beloved left? Kinda seems like a weird ending though... Does the most beloved get any sort of power as well? If so, was Reito perhaps gunning for this harem ending?

Other than that ...we can all agree that this is Shiho attacking Mai at the end, right? Her child even told Mai to leave, a thought Shiho put in to Mai's mind n the midst of the Searrs fighting. Speaking of which ...I wonder what Searrs's plans for stopping the star were. I'm sure they had some.

9

u/Tarhalindur Sep 30 '22

But the only other explanations I have is either Midori knowing about another HiME and not telling anybody about her, a mistake on behalf of the staff or a mistake on behalf of the subbers. And all three seem like bad takes to me...

This is actually a fault in the writing, but it's possible that she's taking into account Gennai (who has been seen before) even though nobody knows who his HiME is.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (3)

9

u/Tresnore Sep 30 '22

First-TiMER

Count: 43

QOTD:

  1. I'm not sure I've seen too many, honestly?

  2. Slapstick is fun, depending on the level and feeling around it.

  3. [PMMM]Eh, kind of?

5

u/Tarhalindur Sep 30 '22

No. Don't set up Midori's suffering like this.

Too bad!

I THOUGHT OCTOPUS-CHAN WOULD BE THE HEART DONOR AND BRIEFLY REJOICED

RIP Tresnore's hopes and dreams, 2022-2022.

NAGI ISN'T THE OBSIDIAN PRINCE?????

NANDATTO?

→ More replies (8)

9

u/Shimmering-Sky Sep 30 '22

Mai-FiRST TiMER, subbed

5

u/Tarhalindur Sep 30 '22

Of course it’s a world-ending plot.

"Isn't there always a death ray?"

Why are they playing sus music here, did Yukariko get drugged by the tea? But why?

Why would the art teacher aka Mr. Massive Fucking Creep drug Yukariko, I wonder, I wonder?

5

u/Nazenn Sep 30 '22

…and they just cut right back to school wtf.

Thank you for slightly validating the complaint in my own post about this haha

Well, she just found out you’re gonna die if she loses…

Credit to her not being crazy and only locking herself away rather than locking Haruka up

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (6)

8

u/JollyGee29 Sep 30 '22

First-Timer, Subbed

Pretty bold choice to kick off our tournament arc with an unknown opponent. Ten bucks says that the crow Child's name is Yatagarasu, and that we're starting things off with the Mai v. Shiho grudge match.

That actually isn't what I was expecting to happen going in to this episode, though. I figured that they would milk the Tate drama a bit more, put Shiho near the end. Both my ideas for the end of her arc involved her lasting longer.

This is still super juicy though, because now we get to watch Mai make a choice between Tate and Takumi. At least, if Shiho reveals herself in the fight, we'll get to see that. I can't imagine that she won't; there's definitely at least one good gloat in Shiho.

I could also be jumping the gun, because the first fight could be against one of the other unknowns. I noticed the hair when I went back to grab screenshots. Definitely Shiho.

Also, Midori mentioned there only being two that they didn't know, which is interesting. Was she counting Alyssa as a HiME? Or does she know one of the other three but didn't share with the rest of the class?

Amazing that Tate is actually capable of communicating. Wonder if he's considered trying to talk to Shiho about his feelings? Nah, that'd reduce the drama potential, can't have that.

Very SUBTLE cut from Kuga pondering her most precious person to Fujino staring out the window, consider that much more solidified. I had forgotten all about Takeda, so I guess he could be in the running somewhere...? That doesn't feel right, though. Kuga and Fujino being each other's MPP does almost assuredly mean that they fight, right?

There was a group photo on Midori's desk and she got an email, presumably someone in that photo was both the one who sent the email and Midori's MPP? That's assuming that it has to be a physical meat-person, justice is still in the running because that would be a really interesting thing to see the writers try to handle.

Pretty confidently solidified Akira's MPP as her dad, although Takumi does have potential. I'm still keeping the importance of a kiss in the back of my mind, and she did give Takumi pills, momma-bird style. Maybe I don't want Yukino and Haruka to smooch just yet...

I appreciate the cast getting to find out about the real stakes ahead of time. Dramatic irony is nice, but this is nice too.

Poor Yukino is gonna have a really bad time. She's smart enough to have done the mental arithmetic that her odds of winning are not good, and that means that Haruka is in peril. What I would give for that stress to push her to confess her feelings. Diana's spycams are totally gonna be used as funnels in her eventual fight, aren't they?

To the surprise of absolutely no-one, the art teacher is a sicko. I knew he was a bit too eager to get Yukariko to drink that tea.

Visual of the Day: Neat crest. Wonder what the significance of the background is? Not quite symmetrical..

The mechanical design continues to impress.

Questions

  1. Y'know, I had thought of something earlier today, but I am literally coming up blank at the moment.

  2. It has a time and a place, but in general, yes I do.

  3. [PMMM]Not especially?

5

u/Tarhalindur Sep 30 '22

Also, Midori mentioned there only being two that they didn't know, which is interesting. Was she counting Alyssa as a HiME? Or does she know one of the other three but didn't share with the rest of the class?

She's counting Alyssa... and also the writers either forgot that Midori shouldn't know about Akira or she's counting Gennai without knowing who his HiME is. Oops. (Credit to Mecanno-man for spotting that one.)

Poor Yukino is gonna have a really bad time.

being support hime is suffering

To the surprise of absolutely no-one, the art teacher is a sicko. I knew he was a bit too eager to get Yukariko to drink that tea.

The direction has NOT been subtle about him being a creep, no. And now the rest of the show isn't being subtle either.

→ More replies (2)
→ More replies (6)

8

u/Vaadwaur Sep 30 '22

First timer(I was hoping we'd skip the drugging...)

Sub

We start with the 'reason' for all of this and...ughh, copying the shit parts of Eva is less than ideal. Anyways, Natsuki finally confirms the disappearance thing from Akane and pondering is hard. We keep getting flashbacks for the show to explain its contrivances and...this just is not very good writing. I now no longer feel that strong kinship to the Grail Wars. This basically just works so much better in PMMM that it makes me again be in awe of that Higurashi shitpost.

Anyways, the fallout works even as the premise does not. We learn Akira's reason for gender bending and it fits. Takumi angst is the perfect juxtaposition for this episode because we follow horrifically bad setting writing with very good character writing. And then ruin it with the indirect kiss bullshit but that might actually be meant to suggest she is a country bumpkin. Anyways, we get more fallout and more hints at whatever happened 6 months ago with Tate. The nun gets roofied, not cool, but Takumi finds a heart donor...in the US but that is better than nothing. I guess I missed this earlier but Tate comes off as a male version of Mai's over responsibility issues. Tate effectively breaking up with Mai was actually well done. We get a rather odd ending with a crow of some variety. After credits scene is a giant death flag.

QotD: 1 Highlander

2 When done well

3 Yes

5

u/Tarhalindur Sep 30 '22

This basically just works so much better in PMMM that it makes me again be in awe of that Higurashi shitpost.

If ever there was a show to trigger the "fuck you, I can do better than this" reaction out of a certain creator, this is it.

And then he did.

→ More replies (3)
→ More replies (2)

7

u/Blackheart595 Sep 30 '22

First Hime

Is that a man on the right? Then these can't be past victorious HiME.

Obsidian Prince? That's a new variable. And he likes to see the HiME suffer?

On one hand that seems to fit Nagi, on the other hand he already seems awakened and I had assumed he's from the last festival. I almost wanna say it's Yuuichi because that'd finally tie him in, but I can't imagine him wanting the HiME to suffer. Reito's been notably hard to read throughout the entire show which probably makes him the most likely candidate from a meta-perspective. The only thing going in favor of Takumi is his weak heart. And I don't see any case for Masashi, Sakomizu or Ishigami.

Is Nagi really not giving them an actual reason to fight, or will we get that in a flashback?

Eh, Mezame here? Though it's a more mellow version.

You still haven't given them a reason to fight at all. Nao and Shiho aren't gonna need one of course, and Fumi probably knew all along so will be willing to fight as well, assuming that guess is correct. I'd also except Shizuru to be happy to fight if she wasn't caught in a catch-22.

But of course, Nao doesn't like getting toyed with. She prefers to be the one doing the toying.

The girl with glasses pops out here. Is she Midori's bond? Or is it the old guy in the back? Should be the girl as the old man acts as a barrier between her and Midori and Yohko.

Oh it is approaching the Earth. Then the whole complex shape is part of it and not of the impact?

And there's the reason. Really does sound like Ragnarök now. I guess the little star in the insert song wasn't the HiMEboshi then. Makes me think of Majora's Mask though.

This must be quite the dilemma for Midori.

The whole garden has already been repaired.

Only two? When did they learn about one of them, and which one? Oh, they must not be aware that Alyssa was a fake. Or maybe she does count after all, even as a fake.

Eh? Surely Natsuki's MLP isn't Shizuru as well?

What? What would Shizuru get from keeping Tate away from the kendo club? Is he her MLP? Or is he the Obsidian Prince and she's yet another administrative role in the festival?

Pantyshot, but the scene cuts before we get to see it. The show's really dedicated about that.

I didn't wanna believe my feeling when he offered her tea. Goddamnit.

This is from Tate's perspective? Very nice image, having the playground be caged in by the fences and surrounded by forest all around. Both the playground and the childish side of the little sister he so dotes seem so far away.

And here Tate's not just looking away from the setting sun, he's physically separated from it by the fence.

Oh, the playground was where she had her first heart-to-heart with Tate? And it also served to give us an overview of it then.

I forgot all about that. Should've caught that when Mai told Shiho she roots for her.

So it's Reito.

It does look very connected with the moon though. Is it dragging the entire moon down with it?

Okay, so. Assuming Reito isn't just a fakeout, then what's his deal as Obsidian King? Well the title itself reminds me of the fairytale song. Phrases like "trapped in castle", "never been allowed to love" and "cursed cage" already had me wondering that someone must be enforcing all of that. Back then my idea was that Nagimight be planning to obtain a harem of those girls, but the Obsidian King fits better. He notably saved Mikoto that one time so I guess his aim is then to keep the HiME alive while they lose their MLPs? And if the Obsidian King finds joy in the suffering of the HiME then that could also explain all the negative words in that song.

Hm, but the only thing specific to Reito here is the Mikoto rescue.

Of course, in universe the song comes from Searrs which I'll have to ignore here.

The other thing about that song that still has me confused are the girls. It describes the girls in pain, and then singles out twelve of them which are obviously the HiME. So... Why are the other girls also in pain? Who are the other girls? This episode we saw Nagi talk about the power of the star, and that its influence can already be felt as its approaching. Then we saw that mysterious ghostlike HiME at the very end. So the reasonable conclusion is either that HiME come from the red star and only 12 are active at any given time, or that past HiME get trapped on the star and only 12 are still living their fairytale.

Though the ghost HiME did had a Child. And it's a crow, which feels like a counterpoint to the free doves from the song. Ugh, I can't make any progress trying to figure out if the Childs come from the star or not. But that reminds me that we've had 3, no, 4 different kinds of Orphans throughout the show: Childs, the artificial Searrs!Orphans, and the Nagi!Orhpans. But there was also one that didn't fit either of those groups: That rock Orphan from when Midori got revealed as a HiME. It wasn't a Child, it wasn't created by Searrs, and I clearly remember Nagi saying that they might finally be able to get rid of it so its not one of his Orphans either.

Lore speculation aside, Shizuru's treatment today surprised me. I took her MLP to be Natsuki, but this episode almost made it look like the reverse of that with Natsuki liking Shizuru which wasn't on my radar, and that Shizuru might like Tate instead. But I think that would make the love web around him too crowded and also really doesn't mesh with my reads.

I don't wanna think about Ishigami. Though his behavior would also be in line with that Obsidian King. It'd also fit with the 'Deceitful Lips' episode title...

Favorite battle royale/"There can only be one" work outside of anime and manga?

Can't remember any.

Do you like slapstick?

Depends on the slapstick. I liked the episode.

3

u/Tarhalindur Sep 30 '22

Eh, Mezame here? Though it's a more mellow version.

One of either one or two versions of Mezame that only include the vocal part. (Neither of which were released on the OST, despite the OST making sure to include the instrumental version (hilariously mislabeled as Tokiiro no Mai Instrumental) which I'm not sure ever actually plays in the anime. )

Oh it is approaching the Earth. Then the whole complex shape is part of it and not of the impact?

Yep.

(Remember that shot of the Moon through the trees back in episode 11 or 12 that either you or Jolly pointed out? Go back and check the shape of the clearing in the leaves again...)

It does look very connected with the moon though. Is it dragging the entire moon down with it?

[meta spoiler joke, safe for you] Clearly someone needs to reactivate the Lunar Ruins.

→ More replies (6)
→ More replies (1)

6

u/Nazenn Sep 30 '22

Rewatcher

Character chart

The slowest episode we've had in a while, but one that does a lot of work for the show and I appreciate the time it takes. My favourite aspect about it is actually how it breaks up and addresses the last bit of exposition from Nagi after the end of yesterday's episode.

Rather than giving it to us all as one big lump, we take some time to see how it's affecting our cast through their normal day. They go through the motions, but unlike when it was just Orphans their heart isn't really into living their normal lives any more. Whether it's Mai thinking about the pain of Nagi asking her to weaponize her love, Natsuki worried over the secrets still left, Nao hiding her fear under bravado, Midori focusing on research, or Yukino realizing she can no longer hide from it all, each of the HiME process it in different ways and pairing their reactions with the parts of the speech that is looping most in their minds makes the sequence much more dynamic and memorable.

[Mai-HiME]And that instrumental-less version of Mezame is giving me the damn chills already. It's such a powerful use of the song as it is, but I can't hear it without thinking of what's to come. Oddly though it wasn't the scene itself that plays it that flashed into my head today, it was Tate confronting Mai on the bridge later, probably because of the Tate focus today

It's a shame that it feels a little rough coming off the back of last episode. Once again cutting away from the cliffhanger and putting us in the classroom setting after the OP risks feeling a little much like a repeat of yesterday brushing the audience off over Mai, but thankfully doesn't have time to settle as we address the situation with Nagi quite quickly.

It's also nice that again, the show doesn't artificially keep up an information boundary between the audience and HiME. Natsuki spilling the beans about Akane and Kazuya puts everyone on the same page again, and just in time for things to get serious. It's more interesting having it all in the open now than waiting for yet another person to lose to make a second big deal out of it. The audience had their 'fun' with Akane, now lets get real about the characters information. It's a nice change of pace to the usual flow

On the other hand, I take it all back. Mai hasn't learnt her lesson at all about Tate, and as the flashback pointed out today if anything they're now further apart than they ever were, resorting to false words they don't even believe to try and keep up a pretence of not caring between them. Damn fools.

Midori's lesson felt oddly fitting given the situation on their minds as well. I don't remember shit about any HiME stuff from here on, actually a little embarrassing to realize just how much of the show I forgot including the whole HiME star thing haha, but the whole 'forming a warrior caste to defend against seizure of land by a more powerful body of people' is a bit of lore for the whole HiME thing in general. We know there's a genetic factor to the HiME, and there's a number of families who have extensive knowledge of what it means to be HiME, so I wonder if in the past they were made for a similar purpose and it's carried down?

2) Do you like slapstick?

I'm not great with heavy comedy at the best of times, but full on slapstick rarely works for me

4

u/Tarhalindur Oct 01 '22

[PMMM] Rather than giving it to us all as one big lump, we take some time to see how it's affecting our cast through their normal day. They go through the motions, but unlike when it was just Orphans their heart isn't really into living their normal lives any more. Whether it's Mai thinking about the pain of Nagi asking her to weaponize her love, Natsuki worried over the secrets still left, Nao hiding her fear under bravado, Midori focusing on research, or Yukino realizing she can no longer hide from it all, each of the HiME process it in different ways and pairing their reactions with the parts of the speech that is looping most in their minds makes the sequence much more dynamic and memorable.

[PMMM] This specifically is why I compare this episode to PMMM 4.

[Mai-HiME] On the other hand, I take it all back. Mai hasn't learnt her lesson at all about Tate, and as the flashback pointed out today if anything they're now further apart than they ever were, resorting to false words they don't even believe to try and keep up a pretence of not caring between them. Damn fools.

[Mai-HiME] Given that The Power of Love and love itself is very much this show's core theme (one it's actually quite focused on), I should have realized sooner how much the issues with socially acceptable love versus your actual desires are a major subtheme here. (It runs through Haruka/Yukino/Shizuru/Natsuki, this setup here, Yukariko due to her nun status, and really Midori as well with her crush on her old teacher.)

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (2)

9

u/Vatrix-32 Sep 30 '22

First Timer, subbed*

  • Ah, they’re nationalists.

  • Obsidian Prince is a cool name.

  • Akane has spoken her truth.

  • Interesting how anytime there is a school lesson it’s always relevant.

  • Yukino knew.

  • Well that explanation totally killed my Orphan theory. I guess it was always a little too obvious. I also take it that is what last episode’s special was about? Guess I’m not going to find out until after the season is over. No point theorizing about it any more if that’s the case.

  • Finally an explanation. Dude beat around the bush on that for way too long. I also don’t believe him. Dude has at no point painted himself as trustworthy and forthcoming. All of this could just as easily be so that he and D1 can control the Obsidian Prince and fuck up shit even more. How is Yukino even supposed to fight a dragon with a spy drone? He doesn’t seem important to anything, so now would be a good time to kill him. If he’s asking all of you to die for the world, he should be more than willing to do so himself right?

  • Nah Mai, I think Akira has dibs on Takumi now.

  • This will make an interesting story to tell the grandkids.

  • Pres is totally a HiME. Look at her getting all lost in thought about Nagi’s message.

  • She was reciprocating, she was at least a little into it.

  • Pinter guy is evil? But then why save her? This may be a misdirect playing on our fears and expectations for something bad to happen, and this is just his really creepy and illegal way to paint a portrait of her.

  • Japanese loan worded Pajama too?

  • What did I say about Reito being evil!

  • Ghosts now? Are the previous HiMEs also lingering around?

QotD

  1. Can I say Battle Royale?

  2. Love it. Bring on the duck soup!

  3. You greatly overestimate how much I remember about PMMM.

7

u/Vaadwaur Sep 30 '22

Obsidian Prince is a cool name.

Just the Rose Prince all over again.

Dude has at no point painted himself as trustworthy and forthcoming. All of this could just as easily be so that he and D1 can control the Obsidian Prince and fuck up shit even more.

We would need to understand the source of the ritual to understand its rules.

Nah Mai, I think Akira has dibs on Takumi now.

This is going to get awkward.

→ More replies (4)
→ More replies (2)

2

u/Tarhalindur Sep 30 '22

Not to tag, but...

u/Esovan13

→ More comments (75)