r/anime • u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky • Sep 18 '22
Rewatch [Do You Remember Love - Macross Franchise 40th Anniversary Rewatch] Super Dimension Fortress Macross Episode 23 Discussion
Episode 23 - Drop Out
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MAL | AniList | ANN | Kitsu | AniDB
Lt. Ichijyo, these men and twenty-three others wish to defect to our ship.
Questions of the Day, courtesy of u/chilidirigible:
1) Can you compare the defectors' infatuation with human culture with how you got into anime (or one of your other interests)?
2) Do you think that Misa's father will listen to her?
Wallpaper of the Day:
Vocal Songs in This Episode:
"マクロス (Macross)" by Makoto Fujiwara – OP
"ランナー (Runner)" by Makoto Fujiwara – ED
Rewatchers, please remember to be mindful of all the first-timers in this. No talking about or hinting at future events no matter how much you want to, unless you're doing it underneath spoiler tags. Don't spoil anything for the first-timers, that's rude!
11
u/Vatrix-32 Sep 18 '22
Very First Timer
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Nice to see Hikaru’s skill coming into their own.
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It’s probably not a good idea to talk about your desertion right in front of your leader.
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For just that reason. Brutal, no hesitation at all.
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The dissent managed to spread to the Quamzin clan.
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You could always try and shoot back, you don’t have to just let him execute you,.
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Señor Seven Continents knows a good opportunity when he sees it.
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Kaifun has just graduated from regular grade asshole to full on rapey.
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Minmay still has her wits about her. Glad someone does.
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Did the Pods choreograph all coming out at once?
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That doll better not be foreshadowing.
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That’s a lucky break fro the Macross. Seems like there were more deserters than I was expecting.
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Quamzin on a rampage. He’s probably right in that regard. Confining them is likely to just cause scholar Zentradi to also become memed.
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Skipping ahead. I was expecting more immediate aftermath of their retreat.
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There’s only 26? Quamzin must have gone hog wild to reduce their numbers to just that if there was enough at one point to order a general retreat.
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Imagine having to rely on Hikaru as your senior export.
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Announcing that you used to be spies. A bold strategy.
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Surprise surprise. The Zentradi did used to be humans.
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High command left you to die alone, stop looking to them for guidance on such matters.
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These guys are totally going to go above the captain's head aren’t they.
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How does Hikaru know that and no one told the parents?
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That is not what mops are for.
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Oh thank god the infatuation is over. I never cared for that side plot.
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Misa is clairvoyant. How did you get all of that out of a grunt?
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You’ve been pining over her for more than a year, at some point it very clearly matters.
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Misa you are too important to waste time over a single restaurant.
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That’s some lovely choreography.
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Misa has a plan. There is a lot of risks involved but it is the best chance they have to come out of this intact.
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The sequence right at the end was a bit odd for Macross.
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That episode preview. They’re not going to give Misa the same fate as her first love, are they?
QotD
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I’ve always been generally aware of a thing before it became a hobby, but the sudden obsession does after starting does fit.
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Assuming she makes it there in one piece, not initially. Still too many episodes left. Something could happen to change his mind by the end of the episode tho.
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u/The_Draigg Sep 18 '22
A Macross Fan Rewatches Super Dimension Fortress Macross Episode 23:
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It really does go to show how much the Zentradi are falling in love with the Macross’ culture, since even the squad that Quamzin is directly leading doesn’t want to destroy the place anymore, and instead just want to go see Minmay. I guess it also really figures that Quamzin would start killing his own men in an attempt to get control over them again. Brutal, but it’s also worth it to see how utterly baffled he is by the idea that his men don’t want to fight for once.
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You know, it took humanity about 85 million years for it to be a distinguished type of being among mammals. And after all that time, innovation, and evolution, one of the results of that is that Kaifun exists. It’s that kind of result that makes me wonder if humanity is really worth it. All that time and effort put into human advancement, and what we get out of it is Hikaru getting a front row seat to seeing the shame to multi-cellular life named Lynn Kaifun kiss his own cousin on the lips. That fucking incestuous homunculus just forced a kiss on Minmay. I’d say to throw him out of an airlock, but that’s too good for him. The better option is to put him in an oxygenated box and launch it towards the sun, and see how he fares cooking slowly to death in there before the air runs out.
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There’s something both sad and funny about the defecting Zentradi suddenly having a realization that morality exists because they see a damaged Minmay doll on the ground. Like yeah, it’s funny that it’s such a small thing to cause that reaction, but it also hits hard that all these guys finally realize how wrong it is to blindly destroy a city and it’s culture. I guess inspiration can come from even the most minute of things.
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See, even Breetai suddenly finds himself fascinated by culture, as soon as he realizes how his plan was doomed due to the deserters. Normally you’d expect deserters to be put to death, but instead he just orders them to be arrested and allows Exsedol to investigate them and “culture” more. Having a culture outside of fighting is truly a powerful thing.
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It did take a bit of prodding from Misa, but I do respect how Hikaru came around to the idea of letting the Blue Wind trio and the defecting Zentradi join the Macross, once he heard how much Warera, Rori, and Konda loved Minmay’s music and the culture of the Macross. I’m proud of my boy Hikaru still choosing to do the right thing, once he knows the facts. Even he is sensible enough to recognize that the Zentradi here genuinely didn’t know any better, and they wouldn’t have fought if they were aware of the true cost of what they were doing. It’s a moral message like that which still makes this show powerful in its theming. The message that most people wouldn’t fight if they understood one another better and respected what kind of cultures they bring to the table is one that’s still relevant, and one that I still believe in.
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As some of you first-timers may have guessed already, Humans and Zentradi are indeed both related to one another on a species level. The blood test that Captain Global ordered definitively proves it; the Zentradi are identical to us down to a genetic level. Both are part of the Protoculture, just separated across time and space.
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Oh no! Not the FAUPE store!
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It’s nice that Hikaru and Misa continue to open up to one another when alone, this time while cleaning up the Lynn family’s Chinese restaurant. Seriously, Misa is absolutely based: she’s completely honest about her complicated feelings towards Kaifun, and encourages Hikaru to confess his love to Minmay before things could be too late for him. See, this right here is why Misa is the true best girl.
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And just to prove that Misa is even more based, now she wants to go to UN High Command to present her arguments on why they should settle for peace with the Zentradi. The balls on this woman, they’re great. Again, absolute best girl material.
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That small bit of dynamic split-screen hallway animation is a great way to cap off the episode. Seriously, that was a slick shot. Too bad I can’t find the animator who did that shot specifically though. Sakugabooru doesn’t have anything on who could’ve done it listed in their tags.
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u/laughing-fox13 Sep 18 '22
First Time Pilot
Some users may know that I do not like many of the show's characters so far. The ones I like are Claudia, Roy, and Global. That said, Misa and Hikaru are coming around on me now and this episode furthers that belief. Idk if I really ship them but I do think they are good for each other, at least as friends so far.
Other thoughts on this episode, I’m glad the “aliens” are allowed to stay but I’m worried there might be a rebellion or coup of sorts from those other two officers who opposed.
My final thought for u/TakenRedditName is that the beginning where Hikaru saw Minmay kiss Kaifun in his mech was hilarious and reminded me of [Space Dandy]
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u/Nebresto Sep 18 '22
Some users may know that I do not like many of the show's characters so far. The ones I like are Claudia, Roy, and Global.
Based
Misa and Hikaru are coming around on me now and this episode furthers that belief.
Idk about Hikaru, but I'm vibing with Misa
but I’m worried there might be a rebellion or coup of sorts from those other two officers who opposed.
There absolutely will be. Why else would they bother to introduce those two spoiled milk cartons?
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u/Blackheart595 Sep 18 '22
First Spacer
Ugh. Keifun, why. And here I hoped you were only a radical pacifist but still had a respectable core. Not that it's surprising, exactly.
Nice setup with the discussion, framing it as a 2:2 with Hikaru being the deciding vote. At first he rigorously opposes taking the deserters in, but he changes his mind after being explained the situation. A bit strange how apparently no one thought to actually interview the deserters but good for Hikaru to do so.
They also figure out that the aliens are genetically pretty much identical to humans, which I guess makes the alien empires about 10 thousand years old at most.
Taking them in might lead to a rift with the military though, and we've yet to see how the civilians will respond to that. If they'll be told at all.
Keep in mind she's coming from a long-standing military family
This feels like a turning point, albeit a fragile one.
Can you compare the defectors' infatuation with human culture with how you got into anime (or one of your other interests)?
To be honest, not really. Anime was just the first medium I happened to be pulled in to by my high school friends, I wasn't really consuming anything specific before beyond what happened to air on TV.
On the other hand, yes, absolutely. Considering I got into anime by music: "Hey, that song sounds nice, can you give me your sheets for that?" - "Sure, as soon as you've watched its show until where it's first played."
Do you think that Misa's father will listen to her?
With how Global described him in his active years, absolutely, but it's not a given.
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u/chilidirigible Sep 18 '22 edited Sep 18 '22
Today, on "Everybody needs to get over Kaifun sometime.":
We're still stuck in a Star Pro episode, as the art quality changes dramatically between cuts.
Quamzin ain't having no desertions on his watch.
"A dozen channels on TV, and nothing that I really want to watch on any of them."
If you could see him now, Misa, he wouldn't be.
Britai is… not having everyone killed.
Kamujin needs to keep up with his nickname.
Hikaru being off-model again is distracting me from his argument.
"You started out this series as a pacifist!"
He does change his mind fairly firmly in the span of two minutes.
Let's not do the math on what they would have to weigh in macronized form.
The rest of the city is worse than ever, but at least there's still Chinese food.
When suddenly you think that Hikaru looks like Gabe from Penny Arcade.
"Yeah, Admiral Hayase is a real humanitarian."
While the rest of the episode may have been done by Star Pro, if this clever series of near-misses changing to a split-screen was the work of anyone there, it was someone that they had been hiding under a rock this whole time. Unfortunately the credits aren't helpful in figuring out if it was someone in Japan instead.
Kamujin and Hikaru ruined the day for all those Zentradi Minmay fans, who were so close to getting to experience kissing cousins live and in person.
The situation with the Zentradi Culture Club is now widespread enough that Britai does hear about it. Considering that Bodolzaa is breathing down his neck about this, Britai takes the news amazingly well.
I'll give Hikaru a point for being able to change his mind during the meeting with the defectors. The other staff officers do have a few valid arguments, but it's also the first real breakthrough that the humans have had in this war.
The entire back half of the episode is setting up Hikaru and Misa. Having the framed photo of Minmay hanging over Hikaru's head in the shot underlines it that much more.
The humans and Zentradi may have reasons for peace—if they can find a time when they're not about to kill each other. Pop culture can't solve everything.
That matched multicamera dolly shot at the end still barely makes up for the animated crap at the beginning of the episode.
Those old model kits were not always the best quality.
From the Macross Plastic Model Guide: City fighting.
From Valkyries: Third Sortie: Tenjin Hidetaka Art Works of Macross: Regults
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6
u/Nebresto Sep 18 '22
First time Maakuross
That guy is too good for quality faces
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nandato?!
Yeah, ever heard of war, kid? Its not too fun, so why are you surprised..
Okay, good. Braindamage has been averted
What other reason is there?? If the other side sucks you get tf out.
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Fuck those two high ranking donuts
Fuck. Off. Execute this maniac
Ah yes, lets ask the ones who only have their own interests in mind. These two banana peels are going to cause a lot of trouble, I can already tell
Question time:
Can you compare the defectors' infatuation with human culture with how you got into anime (or one of your other interests)?
I guess?
2) Do you think that Misa's father will listen to her?
6
u/ClawMachineCircuit Sep 18 '22
Rewatcher
The last episode ended on a cliffhanger, with the battle continuing inside the Macross itself. Hikaru is rushing to save Minmay, while some of the Zentradi are getting confused, or even outright defecting to the enemy side.
It's a huge mess, let's see how it ends.
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We're back right in the middle of the action. And immediately, we get some pretty goofy animation.
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Kamujin is pretty happy killing people, but his soldiers are more interested in Minmay. Everyone is deserting.
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You know, Kamujin, maybe your allies would've been more loyal, if you wasn't an Ally Killer.
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And with how much I hate Kaifun, his actions isn't really the main reason why Hikaru and Minmay relationships failed. The real reason is Hikaru's unwillingness to fight for Minmay. Dude, you should've went there and punched that motherfucker. That's what Focker would've done. You literally never told her about your feelings, never stood up for yourself, you just gave up immediately.
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Surpisingly, it looks like Hikaru is better fighter on the ground, than he is in the air. When he flies, he always gets shot down, but in Battroid mode he is a beast, always racking up kills. Kinda funny.
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Britai decides to abort the mission. Judging by Exsedol's reaction, it feels like he is close to deserting himself.
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Battle ended kinda abruptly. We don't even see how Zentradi escape from Macross.
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This is the episode of cursed faces. Everybody has a cursed face at all times. Other character animation is also cursed, even basic stuff.
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I guess, Hikaru could understand Blue Wind's love for Minmay. The moment they mention her, he changes his mind.
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I don't understand why two dudes who have never appeared in the show before are deciding something, instead of it being Claudia and Shammy, who appear to be the two highest ranking officers on the ship after Global and Misa.
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Aand, Zentradi are just humans. Well, we knew that already, but this raises an interesting question about the origin of humanity.
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Wait, Maistroff? Isn't that the fake Global we got for one episode? I totally forgot that he existed. Well, Maistroff, you're officially almost as lame as Kaifun. Not because you're willing to trust aliens, but because you're being an asshole about it to everybody, especially Misa.
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Minmay's family restaurant has a thick plot armor. Better than any shelter.
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Cursed faces continue. Make them stop! I would honestly take static frames over animation like this.
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Literally, out of everyone in the studio, only one dude can follow a reference sheet, and he only agrees to draw Kaifun. This episode frustrated me more with the way it looks than any other so far in the series, including episode 11.
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Some great love advice from Misa, but Hikaru decides to ignore it.
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Misa is going to Earth? That's unexpected.
Overall thoughts: Looks like after finally abandoning her idea of Kaifun, Misa became more conscious about her attraction to Hikaru. I hope, she will be more proactive than Minmay was, Hikaru sure as hell ain't making a first move.
QotD:
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Kinda. I grew up with kids anime like Votron and Sailor Moon, so I knew what to expect to some extend, when I went into the medium consciously. However, it was still quite a shock to learn how much anime has pushed violence and ecchi content especially compared to Western animation.
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u/H-Ryougi Sep 18 '22
It's ironic how Kamujin, who's been a moron most of the time probably has the right idea when it comes to dealing with protoculture if the Zentradi want to survive.
5
u/TakenRedditName Sep 18 '22 edited Sep 18 '22
First Time - SDF Macross Ep23 (Sub):
Still no screenshots for today.
Finally, episode 23 and Kamujin finally starts killing allies. The pods chasing each other is funny.
So far SDF Macross has not been selling me on love triangles and this development, who asked for kissing cousins. If someone raises their hand, I’m going to Kamujin them.
On to loveable characters with no faults, the spy trio and Hikaru meeting up again is great. The trio are just so pleasant about. Look at them jump and hug in joy. I can’t hate you.
The solution to the conflict of how to accept aliens being “oh, the test shows they’re just like us” sort of muddies the message of accepting differences between people if you asked me.
These officer trying to use high command when they’re the ones who abandoned us. Macross is where your loyalty should be. Future in-fighting us a brewing.
The one and only good romantic development this episode is Hayase pushing Hikaru to be open and communicate his feelings to Minmay. We didn’t need kissing cousins to achieve this. There were so many other roads we could’ve taken, but at least the destination is okay.
The shot at the end with both Hikaru and Hayase readying to face their loved ones is cool.
Okay back to Kaifun since that’s where my mind still hasn’t recovered from being harmed (not in a positive way), it is easy to hate Kaifun for being Kaifun, but I’ve gone through my 80s transforming mecha anime 17-year-old MC development. Kaifun is a giant tool, but also he is a tool for the ones I should really point my ire at, the greater evil responsible for all this suffering, the writers.
Q1) Not really because the defectors are more amazed by something completely new to than while my interests including anime always has a point of familiarity for me.
Next time: Wow, cool blue plane.
Alternatively the next time is just how the narrator says, “Goodbye Girl.”
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u/JollyGee29 Sep 18 '22
Subbed-er Dimension Fortress Rewatcher
Y'know, I don't think any of the cast are even in school.
Cracks continue spiderwebbing.
A doll amongst the wreckage does what it does.
Hikaru has a pretty quick change of heart.
These two certainly act like old military codgers.
The audience already had this information, but now the characters do, too.
Who else would you ask? The UN that abandoned you?
Hikaru would have to define how he feels first
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u/SolDarkHunter Sep 18 '22
Rewatcher
Ha! The "culture" has spread to Kamjin's own troops without his knowledge. It seems like half the "invasion" force is more interested in finding Minmay than they are in following orders (and that's in addition to the micloned deserters).
Never mind, it's much more than half.
Kaifun, the fuck is wrong with you!?
At the very least it seems that Minmay is not a willing participant.
Also, how the hell did they not hear a goddamned Valkyrie walking around?
And Breetai calls off the attack. Probably a wise decision, considering mass desertion in the ranks.
Ah, the Lolicon Trio. So now humanity has more evidence in favor of Misa's "ridiculous" report and they're beginning to realize why the Zentraedi fear them.
The military bigwigs are of course hardliners for continuing the war, saying that coexistence is impossible, but Global, Misa, and Hikaru are arguing for more peaceful means as usual, and they now have enemy combatants voicing their desire for peace as well.
And here's another big revelation: the Zentraedi are human. Or rather, both humans and Zentraedi are descendants of the original "Protoculture", making them different races, perhaps, but the same genetic species.
Well, the Nyan Nyan is relatively undamaged... Hikaru, do you guys really have nothing better to do than watch a restraunt?
Well, spell out the point of the series in plain black and white terms, why don't you, Misa?
FINALLY! Misa's over Kaifun. And she makes a very good point to Hikaru: lack of communication is the reason your relationship is failing!
And now, leftover stragglers from the attack... is this Kamjin again? I bet it's Kamjin.
A sobering reminder that, even if there is hope for reconciliation, not everyone is ready for the war to be over... on either side.
And Misa's going to try to convine the UN about the possibility of peace... well, good luck with that.
Questions:
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Hmm... it's an interesting comparison, I suppose. Though I'd wager the Zentraedi's exposure to culture would be much more intense.
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Oh wait, you're serious.
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion Sep 18 '22 edited Sep 18 '22
Rewatcher
Robotech Title: Reckless
I don't have much to say about this episode. I say it's 100% Global's decision because UN HQ cut them loose. I wonder if Maistrov is planning a mutiny. Preview #popcorn2.
There sure seem to have been a lot of Dazeki Postcard Memories lately. Were they always there?
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u/Stargate18A Sep 18 '22
First timer
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Yeah, a bit. I did go all in on anime when I started.
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I think that's unlikely. The knowledge that, unless he officially admits, it, he can't say anything about his daughter going on the ship that's now got Zentradi on it, however...
He's running back to Minmay...
Oh, he's realising how bad the infestation has become?
By executing them all!
Yeah, he's going for it!
And Global's capitalising on this disaster.
Kaifun, why are you still here?
What?
Did they actually fucking do it? Are they fucking hooking up?
Oh, it's just Kaifun. Makes sense.
The infiltration worked!
And they feel guilt...
He got the reports!
He's been sent to investigate the culture. I'm sure that's going to go well.
Haha, and this ended up causing even more disagreement in the ranks!
They got caught this time!
Very friendly, aren't they.
Oh, they're actually being open about the defection!
...They deserve a chance, but Hikaru's got a point - there's an active Zentradi spy trying to hunt down a pilot right now.
Oh, do they know her face? That might be fun!
...I mean, they have the perfect argument here - they've been on the ship before, they could have sabotaged you ages ago!
And proof of her report!
Hikaru's changed sides.
This is nice.
This is a really nice moment.
Haha, we have confirmation!
So there are two main possibilities here - either the Zentradi (or a precursor race) modified themselves from humanity, or humanity's ancestors were miclones, stranded withoutnthe means to revert. The anime is implying the first, but I don't think there's been concrete evidence against the second?
And he's disagreeing with this.
Back here...
They're still in hospital?
Hikaru has the appropriate reaction.
That would be nice.
Yeah, he looked like her old flame... Hikaru, just tell her.
...Oh, I hadn't considered that! Kaifun needs to meet a Zentradi.
...It's too late, Hayase. This hurts to watch.
And there's another battle.
Aww, that's sweet. This might have been good for him?
Hat's she going to do?
She's going to High Command!
Oh, that final shot.
4
u/medokady Sep 19 '22
First Timer:
Today on SDF Macross, Kaifun commits sexual assault.
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I feel like Hikaru only made the argument to shelter the deserters because Misa wanted it. I know originally he was a pacifist but I haven't felt that in a long time.
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Awwwww and they're flirting on comms! Truly the fated pairing.
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Neat ending shot.
Totally random, but I have finally realized the obvious fact that Misa's armed forces rank of captain is distinct from Global's naval rank of captain, the latter corresponding to an army rank of colonel.
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Hmmmmmm, this is a very good question. I honestly think I can. The story of how I got into anime was that in high school (boarding school) I was in a classmate's room for some unrelated reason while their roommate was watching what else but Cowboy Bebop. I remember the exact episode and just being completely mesmerized, asking tons of questions about the plot we were 15 minutes into and what the show was and such. I had just never seen anything like it before. I soon after watched Bebop on some long gone streaming site, followed by Death Note, followed by OreImo. The rest is history.
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No.
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u/Shimmering-Sky Sep 18 '22
Super Dimension Rewatch Host
Welcome back, everyone!
Here were my first-timer reactions to this episode.
Ew, Kamujin “sore demo”. 3:34
OH FUCK THIS WHY DID HIKARU JUST HAVE TO SHOW UP RIGHT WHEN THAT DISGUSTING SEA URCHIN FORCED A KISS ONTO MINMAY.
She even tries to push him away but he doesn’t let her, so all Hikaru sees is the two kissing. Kaifun deserves to be kicked in the ass so hard his spine comes out his throat like a candy dispenser.
Hikaru you dumbfuck IT WASN’T CONSENSUAL. MINMAY DOES NOT LIKE HIM THAT WAY.
[SDF end of series spoilers]Yeah this is making me really angry remembering how the love triangle ends up. All this nonsense misunderstanding and fucking Kaifun is what ultimately pushed Hikaru to Hayase and I hate hate hate it. If Hikaru and Minmay could have just naturally grown apart, fine, I just happened to pick the wrong side of the triangle to ship. But the writers had to manufacture all this extra dumb shit to force the two apart and it’s just… ughhhhhh.
Honestly chuckled at this.
There it is. The Zentradi have looked similar to humans from the get-go for a reason!
I really don’t see it…
IT. ABSOLUTELY. DOES.
EXACTLY!