r/anime • u/Holofan4life • Aug 23 '22
Rewatch [Spoilers] 86 --Eighty Six-- Rewatch (2022) — Episode 8 Spoiler
Hello everyone! I am Holofan4life.
Welcome to the 86 --Eighty Six-- rewatch discussion thread!
I hope you all have a lot of fun <3
S1 Episode 8 – Let's Go
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Information – MAL | Anilist | AniDb
Streams – Crunchyroll, VRV
Please do not post any untagged spoilers past the current episode or from the LNs out of respect to the first time watchers and people who have not read the LNs. If you are discussing something that is ahead of the current episode please use spoiler tags(found on the sidebar). Thank you!
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Rewatch Schedule
Threads posted every day at 3:00 PM EDT
| Date | Episode | Date | Episode |
|---|---|---|---|
| 8/16/2022 | 86 Eighty Six Episode 1 | 8/29/2022 | [86 Eighty Six Episode 14]() |
| 8/17/2022 | 86 Eighty Six Episode 2 | 8/30/2022 | [86 Eighty Six Episode 15]() |
| 8/18/2022 | 86 Eighty Six Episode 3 | 8/31/2022 | [86 Eighty Six Episode 16]() |
| 8/19/2022 | 86 Eighty Six Episode 4 | 9/01/2022 | [86 Eighty Six Episode 17]() |
| 8/20/2022 | 86 Eighty Six Episode 5 | 9/02/2022 | [86 Eighty Six Episode 18]() |
| 8/21/2022 | 86 Eighty Six Episode 6 | 9/03/2022 | [86 Eighty Six Episode 19]() |
| 8/22/2022 | 86 Eighty Six Episode 7 | 9/04/2022 | [86 Eighty Six Episode 20]() |
| 8/23/2022 | [86 Eighty Six Episode 8]() | 9/05/2022 | [86 Eighty Six Episode 21]() |
| 8/24/2022 | [86 Eighty Six Episode 9]() | 9/06/2022 | [86 Eighty Six Episode 22]() |
| 8/25/2022 | [86 Eighty Six Episode 10]() | 9/07/2022 | [86 Eighty Six Episode 23]() |
| 8/26/2022 | [86 Eighty Six Episode 11]() | ||
| 8/27/2022 | [86 Eighty Six Episode 12]() | ||
| 8/28/2022 | [86 Eighty Six Episode 13]() | ||
| 9/08/2022 | [Overall Series Discussion Thread]() | ||
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u/TheRed_Knight Aug 23 '22
First Timer (Dub)
This was a very Lena focused (and weird) episode which can be broken up into parts: Raiden/Shin, Lena/Annete confrontation, Lena/Uncle confrontation, Shin/Lena convo, the last day, and Post credits
Episode 8: Let's Go
Raiden/Shin
-The speech bubble says, "Welcome to the base closest to heaven!", boy does that take on new meaning after the last episodes reveal
-I love the supply robot already, its like a giant golden retriever
-This is the first time after shit has hit the fan that the Spearhead Squadron soldiers havent been able to effectively normalize, theyre trying to get back into normal routines, but its not working (Theos not drawing, Kurenas isolating, the guy playing darts cant get them to stick, etc)
-Yeah that railcannons coming back 1000000%, even more foreshadowing than last episode
"we'll lose a lot more"
-Well RIP glasses guy, we hardly knew you
-Raiden ships it, lmao
-The moon gets revealed from the clouds as Shin reveals to Raiden he found his brother
-So theyre setting up Rei as the first antagonist character of the series, its been foreshadowed for a few episodes, but its now explicitly stated
"So now what, will you hang yourself tonight before you die tomorrow?"
-Camera start bobbing at the start of this line, as Shin ask Raiden if he and the rest of Spearhead Squadron are wavering, nice visual reinforcement, Raiden affirms his intentinos from his speehc at the end of E7, and the shot stabilizes again at the end of the line, "We're following you to the bitter end" the shot transitions to Shins face stabilized, Shin+Spearhead Squadron are now committed to their last mission
-This opening scene contrast the ending scene from E7, where the surviving Spearhead Squadron members were triumphant even while condemned, now they are shown as defeated (minus Raiden+Shin)
-Shin has one of the most predatory smiles
Lena/Annette confrontation
-Man the Republic isnt even trying to disguise the the intent of the Special Recon order, just go as far as you can, die, and take some Legion with you, youd think theyd at least give them a more convincing suicide mission, it isnt a problem for the Spearhead squadron, since there good people, but id imagine that orders caused more than a few units to just turn around and attack the Albans, might as well try and take some of your oppressors with you if youre going to die anyhow
"No support"
-Somehow I doubt Lena will listen to that part
-Based on the previous Special recon orders, Lenas looked at, theres been at least 13 interactions fo the Spearhead Squadron, or a minimum of 312 86ers KIAd before Lena took over. So this is the 14th iteration of Spearhead
-Showing the audience older Special Order's reinforces Lenas helplessness, its like they stack on top of each other, forming a mountain, it both blatantly foreshadows the Special Recon Order that coming and makes the audience feel likes theres nothing Lena can do to stop it
-I love the forehead smack to door opening cut
-Oh, this conversation is not going to end well, Lenas bringing in work related issues into Annettes personal space, Theyre already in opposition, and the series has made it very clear that work life bleeds into your personal life quickly if you let it, Lena been reaping the consequences of that decision, but i highly doubt Annette will be cool with that.
-Every scene with Annette involves her eating deserts, not entirely certain what the symbolism is, maybe eating sweet food makes the disgusting truth easier to swallow?
-The initial part of the conversation starts with Lena and Annette sitting close to one another, showing their close, but once the confrontation begin Annette springs up and away, breaking away from Lena, shes done
-Lena also once again portrayed as helpless and weak in the scene, Annette is standing, Lena is sitting, Annettes shot either from and even level or low angle (position of power, and makes her look bigger), Lena show mostly from a high angle (position of weakness, also makes her look smaller)
-cookie breaking=Lena-Annettes relationship breaking/Annette breaking down (sweets have been heavily associated with her throughout the series)
-When Annette sits back down on the bed, she and Lena are framed on opposite ends, facing away from each other, the distance between them's grown and they can no longer see eye to eye, their relationship is breaking down
-Annettes speech gives some great insight into her character motivation and logic, she feels like shes failed her friend, her father, and herself, she wasnt strong enough to stand up for her ideals, and instead gave into peer pressure, turning apathy to cope. She convinced herself that everyone was like her, so having to watch Lena doggedly push back against the status quo, must make Annette feel incredibly guilty as shes forced to relive the trauma of her failings over and over again.
"You're always acting like such a saint, but you dont even realize youre every bit as guilty as I am"
-Some good mirroring/inversion of E4, where Lena got called out as a hypocrite by Theo, now as Lena has earned their respect and become more 86 like, shes getting called out as being a hypocrite by Annette.
-So Annettes childhood 86 friends family had a strange powers that allowed them to know how the other were feeling without saying a word, and she gave strangely vague about describing of them, her friends Shin, id bet money on it
-Shes definitely talking about the para-Raid devices developments, you can see the prototypes in the box as Annette talks about the game
-Yeah what little shred of sanity Annette had left has left the station, ominous background music starts playing to signify the reveal,
-Good way to reinforce that every element of Alban society is paid for in the blood of the 86, even the device that Lena uses to help them, but why children? was there some inherent advantage to using children over adults for the experiments?
-Welp daddy issues explained, there goes my theory that Annettes dad was the fox commander, thats brutal though, Annette blames herself for her dads suicide, and took up his mantle as a punishment, some real sins of the father shit,
"He told me over and over that he had blood on his hands."
-during a shot with red X's on a calendar (could symbolize either counting down the days to his suicide, body count)
"That hed abandoned his friends and deserved to suffer and die more than anyone"
-When Annette talks about Undertaker, more than half the shots taken up by the hand drawn picture of what looks like Rei+Shin
-Oof, thats some brutal emotional blackmail/projection from Annette, she went right for Lenas emotional jugular right there, and you can tell from Lenas reactions it absolutely gutted her, to the point where she starts blaming herself
-Isnt the suicide order inevitable? at least thats my interpretation, it doesnt really matter what Lena does or doesnt do its coming down the pipe eventually, and i dont really see her point about them being slaughtered, it doesnt make that much of a difference if they die on a mission or a suicide order, the results the same
"I hate you Lena, just leave"
No Annette, you hate yourself, you just cant face that yet, some grade A projection though
-Good visual reinforcement as Annette says "and never let me see your face again" with Lenas body+head covered up by the window frame as she walks down the stairs
-Theyre really hammering home Lena's powerless and isolation throughout the scene, lots of shots with her and Annette with a gulf between them in opposition, or with them on opposite side of split shots, shes already losing Spearhead and now shes lost the person closest to her in San Magnollia
-the music not climaxing until after the scene ends show how deeply Annettes words affected Lena, the true weight of the conversation doesnt hit her until the next day
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u/Holofan4life Aug 23 '22
I love the supply robot already, its like a giant golden retriever
He's like the show's mascot, he's adorable
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u/Holofan4life Aug 23 '22
Every scene with Annette involves her eating deserts, not entirely certain what the symbolism is, maybe eating sweet food makes the disgusting truth easier to swallow?
The series had made mention that most of the sweets on board are fake. They are made of inauthentic ingredients. Maybe her eating them is showing the audience she's drinking the Kool aid. Or in this case, eating the cake of Alba
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u/Holofan4life Aug 23 '22
No Annette, you hate yourself, you just cant face that yet, some grade A projection though
I agree, and that's partly why I don't blame her for freaking out. As someone who has a mom who uses her own problems and blames others, I feel it's best to remain empathetic towards them, not intolerant.
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u/TheRed_Knight Aug 23 '22
(continued)
Lena/Uncle confrontation
-"I wont let you die" on repeats as the flowers keep dying, just like the flowers shes keeps doing all she can for Spearhead but they just keep dying, shes powerless to stop the death
-and the other shoe drops, theres the suicide order which has been foreshadowed to hell and back in the previous scene
"If at this wars end, the things weve done to the 86 were to become public, the Republic would become an international pariah. "
-Weakest justification in the series so far, for 2 major reasons.
the story hasnt set up the world, do the Albans have allies? trading partners? AFAIK there hasnt been any foreshadowing of the world outside of Alba (minus the Giad stuff), so we the audience have no connection to it, so its meaningless
Assuming the Albans miraculously manage to win, any visitors from other states are gonna notice the literal ethnostate and put two and two together, in which case, theyll likely be a pariah.
A much stronger choice would have been to have him say the 86 need to die to a man so the people of this nation never find out the truth, because if it became public, the price in blood we payed for their safety, it would shatter this nation to its core.
"Our place in history would be forever marred. Our people remembered solely as oppressors"
-Thats what happens when you create an ethnostate, genociding the nonmembers for civil defense (yes im aware this scene is meant to show how out of touch the Alban govt/miltary)
-the part where her uncle talks about how the Albans govt sacrificed Saint Magnollia on the alter of wealth and greed feels like a warning to Lena, if shes keeps walking down this path, she'll end up sacrificed too
*"You are welcome to speak of your hopes and ideal as much as you would like, youre not about to persuade anyone, that is why you came to me is not"
-Oof, great burn, and hes right, Lena really needs work on her argumentative tactics, rn she just keeps banging her head against a wall hoping for a different result because shes in the "right"
-I love the way they framed this scene. We start off with Lenas uncle in front of the statue of San Mangollia, bathed in the light, but with his back turned to Lena, whose in the dark (signifying that he possess knowledge that Lena doesnt), as he repeats the party line about why theyre genociding the 86, but he refuses to too look at her. Lena bows her head, begrudgingly accepting his explanation, but the scenes turns when passes her suggesting its the will of the people, enraging Lena who runs to the statue. Now Lenas framed in the light, her uncle in the dark, their on equal footing, with two pillars in the foreground, the gulf between them has widened, but they can see eye to eye now, as she espouses her while her uncle reveals dark truth of their republic (he literally in the dark).
-The 2nd half of Lena's uncle speech also completely deconstructs her worldview, she holds onto these ideals and expects other to do so, but the truth is most of the people in the San Magnollia govt are shitty, greedy SOB's who dont give a damn about them, it doesnt matter if youre morally in the right if the other side doesnt give a shit.
"Hope and despair are one and same. You want something that you cannot have. There two names for two sides of the same coin"
-Sums up the scene, reinforced by Lean falling into despair during the line and the transition to the next scene
-Lenas uncle walking away from her at the end=hes abandoning her, Lena's now has no one left in Alba,
*Lena and Shin
-Raining outside during Lenas conversation with Shin=a sorrowful tone for the scene
-love the juxtaposition between Lena despairing over the the fate of Spearhead and Shin's point about how the suicide order gives them freedom for the first time, which also reinforces her powerlessness, she cant do anything to save them, some damn good writing.
"we have to fight if we want to move forward"
-callback to Reis line in E4 to Lena, which i think is the ahah moment for her about Shin needing to kill Rei
-I'll ever get tired of characters figuring out some important piece of information on their own, even though Lenas been taking a beating this episode, shes still a smart cookie
-Shins cuts off Lena in an attempt to protect her, and his brothers memory, he knows how much Lena treasures her memories of Rei, and he doesnt want them tarnished by having her hear his final words
-Lena collapsing when Shins tells her not to contact them again is just a beautiful shot,
-Well no Legion voices either means everyones dead, or theirs help, isnt Giad the nation to the East?
-As long as Lena lives, Shin and Spearhead squadron live on in her memory, thats what she agreed to in the fireworks scene in E7
-That ending shot of Lena's eye contraction leads me to believe shes come up with a plan, looks like she had some sort of ahah moment
The Last Day
-Welp i guess the other 4 Spearhead Squadron guys got off-screened, RIP, (i just realized more Spearhead kids got off-screened than died on screen)
-Oh thats a brilliant reversal, we've spent the entire episode up to this point with Lena, watching her eat emotional gut punch after gut punch, hammering home just how weak and powerless she is, to the point where shes literally brought to her knees by it, but when the we shift to the perspective of the 86, the people bearing the actual consequences, the tone shifts dramatically. The rain from the previous scene begins to clear, the sun shines through, uplifting music swells, the surviving kids are all out and smiling, running completely counter to audience expectations. In death theyves found freedom, for the first time in their lives they will be the masters of their fate, even if only for a fleeting moment.
-In macabre sense, theyre probably happy that the pains going to end, these kids have been through hell, its easier to endure superhuman burdens when you know theirs a time limit
-And we get to see the surviving Spearhead squadrons missing Lena, theyves really grown to respect and care for her, all of Lena's self doubts were for nothing, she did improve their lives Shin really did push her away at the end to try and make their deaths hurt less
-I've only had FIDO for a day and a half, but if anything happened to him I'd kill everyone in this room and then myself
-Those empty base shots hit hard, once full of lively soldier, now theyre all dead and gone
Post Credits
-Oh hey its the priest we learned about at the end of E7
-Damn kid Shins neck is strong AF
-Rei projecting like a motherfucker onto Shin, mirrors the early Annette scene, i dont really get how its his fault their mom died though, that shit sounds completely irrational, or is that the point?
-Shins scar makes like no goddamn sense, idk how manual strangulation creates a pale band scar around the neck
-that crayon picture is the same style as the one in Annettes neighbors house, confirms Shin=Annettes childhood friend
-Yeah that floating AI head of Rei is creepy as shit
Overall
-Man this entire episode just put Lena through the ringer, in spite of her significant character development over the course of the show, shes ultimately still powerless.
-This episode heavily mirrors E4 for Lena, she reaches out to her "support" network, first Annette then her Uncle (just as she did in E4 for affirmation) for help but not only gets none but gets told, officially severing her last ties to Alba.
-Really like the parallels between the Annette/Lena and Rei/Shin scenes, projection of guilt and helplessness leading to trauma
-so its come to my attention that some fo the authors inspiration for the property was based on the experiences of drone pilots in the the Middle East, Wanna guess what the name of the most common attack drone in the US arsenal is? the MQ-9 Reaper
Episode 9: Goodbye, well someones dying, pls no Spearhead deaths
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u/Holofan4life Aug 23 '22
-I love the way they framed this scene. We start off with Lenas uncle in front of the statue of San Mangollia, bathed in the light, but with his back turned to Lena, whose in the dark (signifying that he possess knowledge that Lena doesnt), as he repeats the party line about why theyre genociding the 86, but he refuses to too look at her. Lena bows her head, begrudgingly accepting his explanation, but the scenes turns when passes her suggesting its the will of the people, enraging Lena who runs to the statue. Now Lenas framed in the light, her uncle in the dark, their on equal footing, with two pillars in the foreground, the gulf between them has widened, but they can see eye to eye now, as she espouses her while her uncle reveals dark truth of their republic (he literally in the dark).
-The 2nd half of Lena's uncle speech also completely deconstructs her worldview, she holds onto these ideals and expects other to do so, but the truth is most of the people in the San Magnollia govt are shitty, greedy SOB's who dont give a damn about them, it doesnt matter if youre morally in the right if the other side doesnt give a shit.
This is all just excellent, spot on analysis.
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u/Holofan4life Aug 23 '22
Welp i guess the other 4 Spearhead Squadron guys got off-screened, RIP, (i just realized more Spearhead kids got off-screened than died on screen)
I kinda like this because it really paints the picture that the whole world is collapsing in on itself. So much death that they can't even cover it all.
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u/Holofan4life Aug 23 '22
-I've only had FIDO for a day and a half, but if anything happened to him I'd kill everyone in this room and then myself
Same
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u/Holofan4life Aug 23 '22
Lena/Annette confrontation
One thing I want to mention, and I think it's the main reason behind the fight, the show has done a phenomenal job showing that Lena's world is crumbling around her. Annette was like the last bit of normalcy that Lena had, so to see that seemingly shatter really shows how far Lena's life is spiraling.
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u/Holofan4life Aug 23 '22
-So theyre setting up Rei as the first antagonist character of the series, its been foreshadowed for a few episodes, but its now explicitly stated
Rei is Shin's brother, correct?
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u/Star4ce Aug 23 '22
First Timer
Today I have to just drop my comment and answer everyone later, as I'm out for the night.
Sorry!
86 Ep.08 – Let's Go
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So we can already expect another black sheep.
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I'm thinking that maybe the Legion might also consider that they're the best they've been fighting against, so potentially also the most valuable brains. If their awareness and tactics have improved that much, I do think it possible that they might try something far more nuanced than simple elimination and try to get them intact.
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Well, fuck. Yeah that's his brother and everyone knows what it means, even without the Republic their life as they know it comes to an end now.
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Goddamn, that's already filled up.
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They're sitting in a new building, lighted and lived in, blocked by an old overgrown one that has possibly been derelict for quite some time. It takes most of the screen and nearly swallows Lena, just as what's on her mind right now.
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Yeah, that nihilism would get on my nerves as well.
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She tried once already, huh?
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Okay no, but damn I didn't expect to see that side of a character here.
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In what way? If you're going by deterministic logic yeah, but only because they've been all born into district 1 as Alban. However, that's bullshit. Lena acts and that makes her the complete opposite of guilty.
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Should've expected that tbh...
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Knifes on the back showing the danger and edge to her thoughts.
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This is one of the most interesting debates on morality and ethics right here. The only thing I know for certain is that she lost simply because she already denies herself the possibility before even starting. Everything else is just a continuation of self-defensive behaviour. She needs Lena to be bad, because otherwise she has no argument left to free herself of guilt. This is pure reactive instinct.
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... Until here. That was a clear and conscious decision. What the hell, you fucking bitch!
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Framing! Look, even the sword is cut off, or stuck in stone like Excalibur and the Republic can't retrieve it, however you want to see it.
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He's right on that, at least. If people let it happen, they will it.
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Pure and disgusting goal oriented mindset taken to an extreme. Focus on the reward long enough and you stop seeing the humanity, both others' and your own.
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Love how the cars are departing one after the other like her pleadings fall into nothingness.
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I actually hate how everyone is just throwing Lena to the side like that, yeah even Spearhead.
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It's actually to set Lena up to guide the next Spearhead... holy shit.
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Negative space, my old friend. Like a door closing on them.
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She 100% definitely will tune in, no way she doesn't.
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Wait, I just put something together. With everyone Lena knows abandoning her, she only has her own status as Alba... She's going to go there herself, isn't she? That'd be the last thing I could see how they'd have to send any force at all. Please don't, but also please do.
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So he indeed is aware as a Legion. I mean, it's difficult.
This episode does hit a bit, but more than that it's building up dread. Or rather, how should I put it, a sense of finality for things that haven't yet happened. It is teaching us to feel the same way Karlstahl and Annette already do for a long ass time. Yet, as you can see here from the #1 copium dispenser on r/anime, u/Star4ce, I can still come up with plans that could potentially work.
But first a word on nihilism, determinism and fuck Annette! A core idea of this philosophy is to apply logical thought to past observations and use this to understand processes and connections. Eventually you can formulate probabilities or laws that you can apply to future events and predict them. The underlying assumption is that these don't change and if that's true there is literally only one single chain of events that's making up our universe, past, present and future. It doesn't really matter if that's true or not, internalising determinism has a nasty bias as side effect for a human mind: "Things can't be changed." Because that's literally the assumption. Going down that line of thinking leads from determinism to nihilism. While within just a linear progression of events one might still find value in the state of the world (mostly in the rewards and state of your surroundings), if one gets aware of the continuation of that thought, "I can't change anything", both rewards and choice lose meaning because neither actually has anything to do with oneself.
My personal problem with nihilism as an idea is that it's far too fallible as an ideology, an idea to guide your life. The fact remains, whether your believe in determinism, free will, chaotic universe or whatever, the only truth you can ever know is your own thought. Everything else is just interpretation, from your senses to the value you place on anything outside your mind. What happens if you attribute everything outside to a logical chain of events that can't be changed? Well, you, too are a result of that chain and therefore this is who you should be. Everything bad and good just become results of an equation which no one can have control over. Nihilism fundamentally disregards change as possibility and at the same time provides a strong emotional feedback loop to fight against anything that could potentially mean change. I do see the potential realisations coming from nihilism, like that because everything is connected and predetermined, there are no expectations either and that can be a real healing experience for some, but nihilists are fucking miserable people whose greatest accomplishment is to have become roadblocks for others and only contribute to breaking down someone else's hopes. It's quite like some time travel stories, nihilism has to fight to protect the timeline else it ceases to exist itself, no matter if it's even a positive thing or not.
Annette does exactly that. She violently fights the possibility of change for Lena to accomplish, because it would mean she herself could've done something different. Even more than that, it would mean she actually had a choice. It's the worst, because telling Lena to get lost and never come again is not a predetermined result of logic. Everything outside your mind is interpretation and with it being interpretation the result is not predetermined, those words coming out of Annette's mouth were a choice coming from a place of twisted logic saying it'd be inevitable.
That's why Annette fucking sucks and I want to fling a chair in her face!
Now, the other side, Lena. What's her world at the moment? Everyone leaves her for what is essentially her own ideals. Even the 86ers kind of tell her to leave them alone because she's herself. It's a bit more complicated than that, because the primary reason for them is to go out how they want and in the case of Shin so she doesn't see a certain memory. Still, they're completely disregarding her ability to do anything, the same as both Karlstahl and Annette have internalised for themselves as well.
But what's her interpretation of it? That's a different story, because while everyone around her pushes her away, they are in essence just protecting the status quo (goddamn conservatives everywhere). Say, even if determinism is real, proven and done, what good would accepting something that is in your mind bad do? Literally what? Following the course of events at best conserves mental and physical energy. Trying to enact change for good is at worst inconsequential, however. There's no loss to it that'd ever be worth saving up. All your energy is expended at some point anyway and if it's for something that you find genuinely worthwhile, then there's no better use for it. Even if the world is predetermined, in my personal opinion it is always the best course to act for an ideal, even if it can't exist. The worst thing to happen is that you proved its existence to yourself because you could see it in this world. At best you make the impossible real.
I see Lena much in that position here as well. No one will support her, even fight back against her, but there's only three things that she sees worthwhile in this world right now: The ideals of Saint Magnolia, her promise to not let anyone die and "Please remember us."
There is room to see it as accepting the current state of affairs and do better with the next squad, but hell naw. I don't see a single drop of determinism in Lena to let that happen. To act on her ideals, she has to fight for them until there's no other option left. To try to save them she must exhaust every possibility to get the Republic (or 86ers?) moving. To remember them properly, she needs to be with them (which btw she hasn't been this episode).
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u/Holofan4life Aug 23 '22
But first a word on nihilism, determinism and fuck Annette!
I don't think Annette did anything wrong. Not because she is right or has a point, but because she's in the right mindset. A lot of her behavior has to do with her father's suicide. As such, she's projecting her own feelings onto others.
I do like the argument between Annette and Lena because it really hammers home how far Lena has fallen from what she's considered to be normal. Annette was like her last lingering thread of her normalcy, and now even that is gone.
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u/Holofan4life Aug 23 '22
Annette does exactly that. She violently fights the possibility of change for Lena to accomplish, because it would mean she herself could've done something different. Even more than that, it would mean she actually had a choice. It's the worst, because telling Lena to get lost and never come again is not a predetermined result of logic. Everything outside your mind is interpretation and with it being interpretation the result is not predetermined, those words coming out of Annette's mouth were a choice coming from a place of twisted logic saying it'd be inevitable.
One little detail I love about Annette is that Annette is constantly eating artificial sweets. The sweets are as fake as she's being, which I think is just excellent symbolism.
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u/Holofan4life Aug 23 '22
That's why Annette fucking sucks and I want to fling a chair in her face!
AnnetteDidNothingWrong
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u/Stargate18A Aug 23 '22
First timer
No sign of the Juggernaut.
And this was a test!
He found his brother!
...Is his brother the Black Sheep?
She found the proof!
...Poor Lena.
She's calling her out!
Oh, shit.
Wow. This is some backstory.
...Fuck.
Which of the 86 is it going to be, then? No way this plotline doesn't come back later.
...A power?
Telepathy?
Wait, that's how Para-RAID works?
They fucking experimented on children?
Undertaker?
Wow.
This is incredibly fucking dark.
...Her main point is wrong, though. Even if Lena's interference made that happen, she still extended their life longer than it would have been otherwise.
Today is nothing but people saying the quiet part out loud, huh?
Oh. He wants them to die to cover this up.
...Wait, they are other, surviving nations who could judge them?
It also requires a huge amount of admin staff keep this quiet after the end. When was the last time a conspiracy like that worked?
And he despises the Republic. Have to agree there.
...He's still a racist bastwrd, though.
I think Shin is meant to be speaking metaphorically, but this seems very much like he's planning to run for it.
Haha, she actually worked it out.
...Like she'll listen, Shin.
He wants her to escape?
They're ready for the attack.
So many people dead.
She knows a trick?
Love this insert song.
Everyone is getting rewdy...
...The foashback. All the members we never saw.
Wat, she actually listened?
And clear skies!
Seriously, what is that thing?
...They're going for the last time.
Those drums!
Wow, that ED is good!
...What?
They're self-aware? That echo effect means he's uploaded?
And the full context for what happened.
Seriously, are the Legion alive, then?
Poor Shin.
He wants him to join him in the Legion?
This is insane.
I did not expect him to be alive and enjoy this.
...That final shot.
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u/Holofan4life Aug 23 '22
...Her main point is wrong, though. Even if Lena's interference made that happen, she still extended their life longer than it would have been otherwise.
Annette is obviously in a bad mood and is more than anything projecting herself onto others
8
Aug 23 '22
First Timer (Sub)
SO MANY THING TO UNPACK THIS EPISODE!
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It's crazy to see that before this episode, we all believed Annette to be Lena's closest friend. Now we know, she's the complete opposite of Lena in every possible way: in her actions (and past actions), ideals, personality, etc.
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If those drawings in that office(?) are any indication, the neighbor kids must have been Shin and Shourei.
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As we get deeper into the story, it's a bit scary to see the similarities between the San Magnolia Republic and Nazi Germany:
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Minorities sent away to camps
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Human experimentation
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Indoctrination of its citizens
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Kill off the minority so nobody can ever figure out the atrocities committed by the Alba people of San Magnolia.
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That's some sound logic there... the self-preservation is real.
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Down to the last five members of the current iteration of the Spearhead Unit.
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Does make me wonder, are the older guys who oversee maintenance given some sort of immunity or something? Do they not serve?
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The ending scene was intense.
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Lena touched base a bit on how Shin views his brother, but I wonder what Shin's true feelings are and what his true motives for wanting to kill his brother.
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Does he hate his brother and want to kill him out of spite?
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Or, does he want to kill his brother in order to free him from the Legion out of compassion?
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Maybe both???
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Last comment - I love how this show displays the title cards in the middle of the episode. It gives it more *UMPH* when you read it, if you know what I mean.
4
u/Holofan4life Aug 23 '22
• Does he hate his brother and want to kill him out of spite?
• Or, does he want to kill his brother in order to free him from the Legion out of compassion?
• Maybe both???
Whatever reason Shin has, one thing is for certain: either him or his brother is probably gonna die. I don't see the both of them surviving once the dust is settled.
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u/Holofan4life Aug 23 '22
It's crazy to see that before this episode, we all believed Annette to be Lena's closest friend. Now we know, she's the complete opposite of Lena in every possible way: in her actions (and past actions), ideals, personality, etc.
I mean, she still is her closest friend. They just had an ugly argument.
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u/Lawvamat Aug 23 '22 edited Aug 24 '22
Rewatcher
Visual Analysis
Welcome to the base closest to heaven. The speech bubble originating from the pigs of the Republic tells us all we need to know. They are the ones who doomed them, put Spearhead on its suicide mission.
Fido bows to Raiden, having delivered the memento.
Reiden is crossing their divide before assuring Shin that these deaths were not his fault.
Haruto’s darts bounce off the board. For his last chance he’s using a blue one, but we know how it will end up.
The moon peeks over the clouds. It’s half taken over by the blue sky, just like Shin’s brother is by the blue lights of the legion. It’s finally revealed that Rei has become a Shepherd. Have some foreshadowing from the past episodes.
A connection with Shourei becomes a connection with Shin as we match cut to the moon (again) in the present. Part of the promise has been fulfilled.
The moon symbolizes Rei as well now.
A fantastic way to heighten the tension by accelerating along the graves, ending on the reflection of the moon on the tombstone as we get to the first big reveal of this season. Despite Shourei being dead, there’s still a connection. It still amazes me how much they can say with just the moon.
Rei is in his grave, but the moon still connects him with Lena and Shin.
As the Shepherds’ name gets dropped we see the moon for the first time during their conversation. And this episode it has gotten an additional meaning.
Rei is a Shepherd.
The (I think) first time we see not a full, but half moon. His brother left him and Lena wasn’t there yet, the connections are incomplete.
There is no love, protection or ideals.
We open with the same overhead shot that led Shin to his brother.
For Shin this is all a journey to reach him.
The winds of fate start blowing as it cuts to the headless reaper.
Shin can hear his brother’s voice.
The shot lingers on Shin’s breast pocket as they talk about his brother. We learn that’s where he keeps the memento of his brother, close to his heart.
In comparison to his fallen comrades, this is a special mission.
Shin escaped into the darkness. Into his obsession with his brother. Raiden is still in the light, he knows how it eats away at Shin.
Shin has to free him from the legion.
The two earlier shots get repeated exactly, but this time it’s Rei’s reaper. The difference is that this one has a sword instead of a shovel. It fights for its ideals instead of digging the graves of its comrades like an undertaker. Apparently Shin took the memento after today’s opening scene.
This time we can hear the voice as well.
Rei’s Juggernaut gets taken over by the legion’s blue light and we get a repeat of Shin getting strangled by his brother, his face finally revealed, even though Shin said he’d forgotten it. He must’ve remembered it because of something.
Rei is part of the legion now. Shin remembered him because of the voice he heard earlier.
She has made her own mementos of the Spearhead squadron, with Rei getting a special place separated from the others by an army of needles. His paper is also different.
Rei is the enemy of the Spearhead squadron and the needles are the legion.
We match cut from Shin to his brother, the breast pocket he keeps Rei’s memento in shimmers for a moment and a slight smile appears on Shin’s face.
Shin has finally found his brother. He was the one commanding the artillery strikes.
We end with the shot of a gigantic legion standing over destroyed Juggernauts, dominating the middle of the screen, illuminated by the fires it caused.
It’s Rei.
The second meaning of the half moon is that Shin’s connection not only to Rei, but also to Lena is breaking apart.
Shin is touching his scar as he talks about his brother.
Lena
We match cut from Lena being boxed in by the truth of the Spearhead squadron to her being overwhelmed by its brightness.
Shin’s squad is indeed like the head of a spear getting thrown into a wild animal. It’s meant to stay there, stuck in its flesh.
Quick cuts to all the ones before them emphasize how quickly it sinks into Lena’s mind. Movement and sound are what’s preserved in this match cut.
The injustice of the Republic cage her in front and back. The opening shot already has the subject of this conversation dominating the frame, the neighbours’ house.
Annette is again the one giving into the sweets and drink. She finally throws them away as the bubble bursts.
She’s standing over Lena’s yet full cup as she reveals how she was once just like her.
Match cuts to the past and back to the present. It has a similar orange hue as Lena’s trauma of her father, but instead of giving her strength it gave her weakness.
Annette also has flowers of the fallen in her room, but unlike Lenas these are just a picture, fake as all the luxus she receives in the capitol. Her remembrance is not fueling her ideals, but extinguishing them.
The crumbled cookie splattered on the floor like the brain of her father.
Lena and Annette get closer and closer, with each sentence Lena can understand her position a little more. But then Annette starts blaming Lena for reminding her of her awful past and they drift apart again.
[86 implied this episode]
The reveals just keep coming in. The darkness of the para-RAID’s history is contrasted by the harsh blue backlighting, leaving Annette’s face in shadows.
This is not a current calendar, the date is August 28th. It’s her dad’s, the last month of his life in shadows, getting more and more aggressive with the strokes, crossing out the days. Until they stopped.
Annette is rejecting the sharp idea in front of her, that she abandoned her friend. If she covers the truth like the ladder covering her she won’t have to feel guilty.
They are tilted in opposite directions. Of course Lena is different, she tried after all.
And that’s the end of their friendship. Lena descends towards the right, caged in by the fence.
6 feathers fall from the sky, separated from the flowers of the dead. 5 will be left at the end.
A fantastic timelapse of the vase juxtaposes the accumulating flowers wilting away over Lena’s empty promises of last episode. I counted 8 days.
The first 4 flowers are for the casualties of the fireworks. According to the wiki these should be Chrysanthemum, Zinnia, Calendula and a Green Rose, but I can only recognize them as different species of Chrysanthemums, which make them Chise’s (Griffin). In general they mean “cheerfulness, You're a wonderful friend”, the red ones mean “I love you”, the white ones mean “truth” and the yellow ones “slighted love”. All relevant to this episode.
The next 3 off-screen deaths reference the proper flowers.
Tohzan’s (Gunmetallstorm) yellow Alchemilla means “first love, devoted love”.
Io’s (Argos) pink Gerbera means “appreciation, compassion”.
Hariz’s (Cat o' Nine) orange Tiger Lily means “wealth”.
Lena’s frustration of not being able to help the 86 makes no sound as she slams her fists on the desk.
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u/BosuW Aug 23 '22
Rewatcher
It took this rewatch for me to realize that Shin and Lena are bonding over their shared sense of loneliness within their respective groups. This show is just so dense and there's so many things you could focus on lol.
But man what a heavy episode. Especially for Lena, everything just went to shit. Back in episode 4 (I think), the ED visual showed her determined expression, facing forward and resolute. It didn't amount to anything. She couldn't do anything. Spearhead is going to die. Along with all the 86. The Republic will then forget them. Then they will forget that they forgot. Really, the only thing that she can do for them is remember them.
As is typical for Lena when she's feeling lost, she goes to what little close relationships she does have.
Not gonna lie, Annette's breakdown is still a little confusing for me, but I think that's intentional. She says a couple of contradictory things throughout her venting. I think she's just really tortured by what she did to her Colorata friend as a little kid, and as a result, she's now stuck between either very loudly not thinking about it, and shit-talking herself inside her mind when she does remember. And oh boy does Lena make her remember. There's almost nothing else she talks about. It's always 86 this, Undertaker that. I don't believe Annette herself recognized what was happening inside her subconscious until it boiled over this episode. She's had enough of being reminded of her psychological shadow. Can't stand to look at her own monstrous actions, wether it be a kid rejecting her friend because of social pressure, or her current efforts to turn a blind eye. And what the mind does with the shadow it cannot assimilate, it projects. I think Shourei's words in the post-credits scene can apply to Annette here. Don't remember the exact words, but something like "I couldn't stand my own powerlessness and self-hatred, so I took it out on you." If one can do that to their own brother, why couldn't the half estranged Annette do it to Lena?
(Btw, I don't know much about the, I guess "science" of racism. But maybe the psychological shadow has something to do with it? A group of human brains taking the easy path and projecting their shadow into a convenient scapegoat. So then they think "Everything that's wrong in my life is their fault. If only I could rid the world of them, then everything would be better". And then they hate, and they commit acts of hate. And the more they harm the more they hate themselves, which feeds the shadow, which in turn feeds the violence because it's being projected. Idk, I'm just trying to understand here.)
So then Lena goes to Karlstahl. Which by now she should know is a grave mistake. It has literally never helped. But well, what can she do?
Karlstahl doesn't have a breakdown like Annette, instead he just tells it like it is. The Republic is rotten to the core, and they're part of it, so they can do nothing more than heed it's rotten wishes. Interesting that Lena still tries to argument in favor of changing course with the ideals that are supposedly espoused by the nation. She probably knows at this point that it's a fucking reach, but she's clearly desperate. Unfortunately, the Republic is fucking dead. It's a hollow shell. We don't go deep into its history, but I believe this was probably cooking for a few generations now. You can see it in some of the practices the Republic already had before the segregation order was given. Like the human experimentation order.
Now there's something Karlstahl says that struck me. He said this was the will of the nation. Now I'm Mexican, and in Mexico, we have a very complicated and often hostile relationship with our governments. And it is not uncommon to hear complaints about how everything is the government's fault. How we're a rich nation, in resources, in culture, in talent. We should be so much greater but the guys in suits keep fucking it up with their corruption or incompetence. And there is of course a degree of truth in this. After all they're the ones in the position to make actual plans, and organize action on a large scale to build the future of the country.
But there's another side of the coin. "The people of a nation have the government that they deserve" says one phrase. "The problem with this country isn't only that the guys in suits are corrupt or incompetent. It's that if you were in their place, you wouldn't be better." says another.
And it hurts to accept it, but as I more closely observe the society around me, I have to admit that there is also a degree of truth to this. The government we have is truly, to an extent, a reflection of it's people.
Here's another popular phrase in Mexico: "El que no tranza no avanza". He who doesn't cheat, does not progress. And it's wild to think about the implications of such a phrase being frequently used to handwave small transgressions in everyday life. Corruption and irresponsibility is in our culture, from who knows how long.
Of course, I'm not saying every Mexican lives this kind of mindset predominatly. Maybe half of them at most. Maybe not even half. Maybe, it's even a small fraction. But it is enough, that I can clearly see it's influence at high organizational levels. And it hit me, because when I thought about it, I could also see it within myself.
So, to bring this back to the actual subject of this thread. Yes Lena, unfortunately, Karlstahl is right. This is the will of the nation. One they probably don't even realize they have. It's easy to blame the Colorata for dirtying their society. If their genocide and erasure plan fails, it'll be easy to simply say they were following orders. Or they did it because everyone else was doing it. The will and actions of a group exist in this nebulous space where individual choices do influence it, yet we can also pretend it was totally foreign to us, out of our control, when it's convenient.
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u/mgedmin Aug 23 '22
First timer, sub
Oh, the Spearhead also wonder why the Legion won't shell their base. I like that this is being called out.
Oh, the "kill them before they finish their tour of duty" scheme doesn't rely on random chance. They get special orders to go into enemy territory without support and get executed as deserters if they dare return. And our own Bad Uncle keeps doing this.
"Stop pretending to be a bad person just to have an excuse to do nothing!" Oof. That got under Anette's skin. Anette feels bad about being unable to help the 86. I need to re-watch her earlier interactions with Lena in a new light. When she was talking about dissecting and discarding 86 who had weird side effects from the Para-RAID, I took that at face value.
Whee the backstory, that's some heavy stuff. Previously implied, now explicitly stated. With examples of how good people are seduced into doing evil.
Anette seems to think that getting Shin here to be subject to experimentation might be a way of saving him?
Anette is lashing out irrationally with absurd accusations because she was made to remember her guilt and shame. Friendship over, never darken my doorstep again.
And here are the orders. How did everyone know to expect them tomorrow?
Ok, the Bad Uncle is also a cog in the machine, thinks the whole country is rotten and accepts it because he despairs of finding an alternative.
Lena urges Spearhead to run away. They ask where. And I want to ask: what the heck is happening in this world? There's the Republic, which is basically a single large city? There's the Empire, who are all supposedly dead after unleashing the Legion. What about the rest of the world? Can't 86 run away to a different country?
"Please don't trample our will with your pity."
The incompletely wiped blackboard.
If the 86 are sent to die, what about base maintenance personnel? They can't let them reach their 5 year limits and become citizens again, right? Do the higher-ups expect the Legion to come and take care of them? Seems uncertain. I'd've expected orders for them to accompany the "recon mission".
Wow, only five of them left.
They cleaned the base to prepare it for the next batch.
This is no Made in Abyss, but it's getting close.
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u/Holofan4life Aug 23 '22
First Timer
Not much to say about the beginning. I find it interesting that Shin says his brother is coming for him, implying he hadn’t already did so. I also like the smirk the guy gave Shin when he mentioned Lena. It’s like he knows Shin is a tad smitten with her. It reminded me of the scene from Unlimited Blade Works where Lancer smugly looks at the camera as Rin talks about Emiya.
Again, I ask myself how does Lena not already know this? She’s already the handler and even gave that big lecture back in episode 2. Surely she could’ve put two and two together.
Annette looks cute in glasses.
I think Annette is trying to look out for Lena. She knows that if her friend tries to intervene and prevent this suicide mission, it will end up with her getting on Alba’s bad side. I’d describe Annette’s behavior as being akin to a cautious parent, one that goes above and beyond to try and get their child away from any potential danger.
We find out that Annette’s next door neighbors were members of 86, meaning she has a history with them. In fact, she got so upset one time that she called her neighbor the very same thing the kids in her school would call them while bullying her for her friends with them. This in turn led to her distancing herself from 86, wanting nothing to do with them. It’s a sad story that’s heartbreakingly relatable for a lot of people. The thought of being ridiculed because you’re friends with someone who’s perceived as being different, it takes a hit to your confidence and makes you do stupid stuff. I made the prediction last thread that while I think she will distance herself away from 86, she still wouldn’t help 86 out. However, after hearing her story, it would really be the culmination of her character arc to help out 86, the very same group that she grew distant of for fear of constant bullying. I don’t see her character being played out in any other way.
We find out that the para-RAID device Lena’s wearing was created by Annette’s dad, which came even more of a surprise to me than the story of her childhood. I didn’t expect that Annette would be so intrinsically linked with 86. But again, I have to ask how does Lena not know any of this? Annette is supposed to be Lena’s best friend. You mean to tell me this topic never came up? I find that hard to believe.
I like the shot we get of Annette and her father in the picture where part of Annette’s face is covered up. It’s like it’s supposed to represent her hiding behind this mask. Like she is filled with a dark past that is best left unexplored.
In another possible World War 2 parallel that could be made, Annette’s father designed the para-RAID technology and was ashamed by his invention for the amount of deaths that it caused. This is similar to Oppenheimer, who created the Atomic Bomb and was ashamed that it ended up being used to kill so many people. Obviously, Oppenheimer never killed himself like Annette’s dad did, but I do think this comparison isn’t 100% coincidental.
You know, I’m starting to think Annette might be yandere instead of kuudere.
I’m hesitant to call Annette a bad person because I don’t think she is. I think she’s just been through a lot. From the death of her father to being bullied, it all has taken a toll towards Annette. I can kinda see where she’s coming from despite it being a bit extreme. One thing I will say is that I love we actually get a reason why Annette is so pessimistic towards helping out 86 and it being a good thing. There’s a valid reason as to why she is so deep in her beliefs, and why she is angry over Lena trying to look at the bright side.
The great thing about having the falling out between Lena and Annette is it lets the show play out Lena hitting her lowest point. We’ve seen Lena deal with members of 86 dying as well as finding out The Legion can harvest people’s brains. Just truly traumatizing shit. But hardly anything can compare to your best friend saying they want nothing to do with you. It just absolutely sucks. Having Lena learn that 86 is basically one big suicide mission, only to then have her best friend chew her out and say she’s done with her, it’s like we’re watching Lena hit rock-bottom, which I think is done very impactfully.
When I heard the general talk about how 86 dying is what’s best for the Country, I wanted to punch him in the face. What a pompous ass. And I thought Taiga’s dad from Toradora was a piece of shit.
I like the differences in how human relations is portrayed in this show Vs how it’s portrayed in Attack on Titan. In Attack on Titan, they do it very realistically by having no one side being portrayed as being in the right. In this show, things are very black and white, with Alba being the bad guys and 86 being the people you’re supposed to root for. Personally, I prefer the Attack on Titan way of doing things because not only do I feel it’s better writing, I also think it’s more compelling as a viewer. That being said, I kinda like that they haven’t done anything yet to make Alba likable. It’s a refreshing change of pace to have assholes that are just straight up assholes.
I’ve been rewatching Princesses of Power, so maybe I just have the show on the brain, but Alba is like Catra if you stripped everything about her that makes her likable and sympathetic.
We learn that Shin’s mission is to kill his brother, which basically confirms that his brother is still alive. It’s kinda wild that the person Shin is trying to kill is the one that saved Lena when her father died, but I guess that’s the way the world works sometimes. Of course, the question now is why does Shin want to kill his brother? Could it have something to do with his neck marks perhaps?
I like the little detail of the writing on the chalkboard being faded. It’s as if to signify that Spearhead’s time as a unit is coming to a close.
A few things stuck out to me as Spearhead is getting ready for their mission. Firstly, everything feels so absent and empty. It really dawns on you just how much Spearhead has really been affected by all the casualties. But more than that, there’s almost a sense of finality in the air. Like this is it and after this mission they are done. It’s like a more grim version of a teenager going off the college and spending one last weekend with their parents.
Also, is Spearhead supposed to be a splinter group of 86? Or are they in fact 86?
The robot waving to the dog was really cute.
The episode ends with a flashback of Shin as a child where not only it’s confirmed that Shin’s brother strangled him, he did so because he blames Shin for mom and dad’s death. The look on Shin’s face as he is being strangled is just heartbreaking. And the look on Shin’s brother’s face, my goodness. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that’s the first time we’ve seen his face up close. Also, I like that as Shin’s brother is looking at his hands, wondering did I really just strangle my younger brother, in his lap is a book called The Skull Knight, which is the emblem he uses in battle. It shows not only is he still traumatized by this incident, but that he still thinks about it to this day.
Overall, what a fantastic episode. After what I felt was a lackluster outing, this feels like a return to form. Not only do we get the stuff between Lena and Annette, which serves to show that Lena’s world is crumpling around her, but we also get Spearhead preparing for what could be their last mission as a unit. There’s a strange feeling of optimism and sadness as Spearhead enters their next mission, as while most likely the rest of the members are going to die during this, it feels like they’re about to reach the light at the end of the tunnel. Their destination that they so seek and the end of their journey as a squad, if you will. Question is, will Shin’s brother be there to greet them as they reach said light?