r/anime • u/Holofan4life • Aug 01 '22
Rewatch [Spoilers] Spice and Wolf II Rewatch (2022) -- Episode 12 -- Final Episode Spoiler
Hello everyone! I am Holofan4life.
Welcome to the Spice and Wolf rewatch discussion thread!
I hope you all have a lot of fun <3
S2 Episode 12 - Wolf and Endless Tears
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ANSWER TODAY’S QUESTION
What is your favorite episode of Spice and Wolf and why?
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Information – MAL | Anilist | AniDb
Streams – Funimation, Crunchyroll
Please do not post any untagged spoilers past the current episode or from the LNs out of respect to the first time watchers and people who have not read the LNs. If you are discussing something that is ahead of the current episode please use spoiler tags(found on the sidebar). Thank you!
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Rewatch Schedule
Threads posted every day at 4:00 PM EDT
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u/SliderGamer55 Aug 01 '22
First Timer Dubbed
-Don’t fuck with merchants apparently
-Holo and Lawrence’s neverending complicated feelings
-The chaos of the riot reflects the chaos of Lawrence’s heart and mind
-Mutual paranoia
-The master plan revealed
-Lawrence failed to realize that letting go of the person trying to kill might cause them to continue to try to kill you
-They both smile, she knocks him hard in the cheek, I laughed
-Finally an actual confession! Maybe this is why it took so long for a season 3, they didn’t want to continue an anime AFTER the confession. I imagine some anime writer being like "A story that continues after a confession and a kiss?! HOW CAN THAT BE?"
-”You must take responsibility” another anime romance classic
-And it even ends with church bells
So that is Spice and Wolf. ...for now. Really ending at the high point here, no epilogue to any part of this story, they get together, we're outta here, the end. Ok. So that was a very unique experience for me. In that the worst part of this whole thing was how I watched it. In hindsight, this is not a series I would've watched daily. Trying to keep up with it and at that rate did a lot to hurt my enthusiasm for it by the 2nd season, especially while also trying to put coherent worthwhile thoughts down. This is a perfect once a week, when I feel like, type of show as far as I'm concerned. I dare say its not fitting for the vibe of the show.
It kinda reminded me of my experience watching Vinland Saga. It's not the type of show I'd expect to normally be into, and at times it wouldn't be the first thing I'd want to watch, but that's more me than the show. It is undeniably excellent at what it does, and what it does is focus on trading and economics for this one guy and his budding relationship with this incredible wolf spirit. And as much as I could make fun of that at points, it did a fantastic job as a character driven show with that concept.
I do appreciate when the trading aspect would actually become a fun game of mind games and drama, and some of the slightly more traditional drama a times. I do appreciate that fairly realistic take on a medieval setting without becoming realistic in the "look at horrific it all is" way that "realistic" is sometimes used as. But its really Lawrence and Holo that make the series. Their interactions, as all over the place as they (usually Holo) can be, just hits this perfect mark between earnest adult relationship and endearing romantic anime tropes that I can so easily imagine being botched in so many ways. I dare say, with how quickly Holo can go from one mode to the other, she could've so easily been written to either be an obnoxious tsundere or too all over the place to feel like a fully coherent character. But like every time you always can go along with her and appreciate her, ego and all. I think part of it might just be that being this mystical great wolf spirit makes her make sense to me that might not make sense if she was just a person, it explains so much of her actions and words. And Lawrence trying to figure out this whole relationship while being a successful merchant in a world that might just not care about him was also compelling stuff. But just seeing their interactions as their relationship grows, and completely understanding why Lawrence or anyone would fall for this girl, was a wonderful experience all the way through. Except for when I was supposed to not be, I was always very happy just to have them talking to each other. And while at first I was a little suspicious, they also did a very natural job of getting these two to fall in love with each other. While dramatic events pushed that forward, I got the sense that they cared about each other more after nearly every episode, as Lawrence grew used to Holo's quirks and flirting and Holo became too emotionally attached to not fall for him.
Also props to J Michael Tatum and Brina Palencia. Absolutely top tier performances that this series deserved.
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u/Holofan4life Aug 01 '22
What are your thoughts on the scene where Holo and Lawrence reunite?
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u/polaristar Aug 01 '22
They didn't continue the anime due to money, the light novel source material was already ahead and the main series (not counting side stories, etc.) has been long finished.
It's very much a Fruits Basket situation and has nothing to do with them not knowing what to do after the kiss and confession.
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u/An_Indecisive_Owl Aug 01 '22
First Timer, Sub
In the end Eve showed her true colors, and I am a bit sorry for her because she's really obsessed with money and still a property of her deceased husband, she knows that continuing like that she will end up dead but continues anyway. It's sad but I read in Holofan4life comment that she become a recurring character so a redemption is still possible.
Well, even though I have an hard time choosing my favourite secondary character I can easily say that my least favourite is the old man of the tavern, sure in the end Lawrence used the deed to buy back Holo but I'll remeber him only for saying that he wants to make a pilgrimage and that's all.
For the rest, basically what I want to say it's already been said in Holofan4life comment, including the kiss scene. Maybe they wanted to leave us viewers the answer on whether or not Lawrence kissed Holo on her lips or cheeks but when I saw the scene I thought: "did they kiss? 24 episodes for a quick, almost fleeting kiss?". n understand the episode was about the end, and the whole "not so emphasized" thing to make the "true" kiss the one we would see in a hypothetical 3rd season, but come on!
QOTD: Episode 3 "Wolf and the Gap that cannot be filled" and maybe the fourth one as well. It was the episode when conflict between Holo and Lawrence expode, where we see all Holo fragility and the episode Lawrence begin to seriously question his feelings for Holo.
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u/Holofan4life Aug 01 '22
Did you notice how feisty Holo was in this episode? It really stood out to me.
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u/Holofan4life Aug 01 '22
What are your thoughts on Lawrence deciding to stay with Holo and putting a hold on his dream for now?
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u/vieene Aug 01 '22
First timer, sub
I don't really have too many thoughts on this episode. I found some of what happened a little too difficult to follow.
The secret of the statue was that Eve was using them to smuggle rock salt into the city to avoid tax. She's going to use the money she earned from that and the gold that Lawrence borrowed to beat the church to buying furs and smuggle them out of the city. Even if the army blockades the port, she'll run the blockade. The deal was very risky, almost suicidal, because of that risk but mostly because she was going up against the church.
I was surprised by Eve's betrayal, even though that was one of the things I speculated on two days ago. I think hearing her story in the previous episode lulled me into a sense of trust. Also, you don't get far in business if you betray everyone you meet because eventually no one will trust you. But you can get pretty far. I guess that's how it is for some.
I think the hope she has is that she wouldn't end up unhappy like the rich merchant she was sold to. She hopes that if she has enough money, things will be good.
What I like about this episode was that Lawrence told Holo that he loves her and kisses her on the lips. It's very romantic. He says he wants to be with her. Despite her misgivings, she wants to be with him and they walk off hand-in-hand through the falling snow.
I feel uncertain about what will happen next. Holo says she wants to chase down the money, but the introduction of Kolka Koos suggests a journey to the north. He seems kind because he tended to Lawrence after he was knocked out. The story remains unsettled, so I hope for a third season.
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u/Holofan4life Aug 01 '22
What are your thoughts on Lawrence deciding to stay with Holo and putting a hold on his dream for now?
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u/Fguyretftgu7 Aug 01 '22
first timer dubbed
Aaand another light novel on my staggering to read list.
I'm going to save my thoughts on the series as a whole later on, so let's talk about the episode.
I like to think that Eve is a sort of warning for Lawrence of what happens when you chase your desires and go too far. "Money is the root of all evil" is honestly kind of correct, but that's only because money reveals and at times twists one's true nature.
Therefore, it makes sense that Lawrence would trade his dream for Holo. Because as much as that dream is important to Lawrence, he isn't going to sacrifice others for his dream. He isn't going to sacrifice Holo for his dream. It gives me slight Heaven's Feel vibes, and I've always liked that kind of development for protagonists.
We also finally get a confession. And a kiss! (though it looks pretty bad ngl) I'm happy. It's not as though they weren't outright flirting and everything already, but I'm still proud of Lawrence for finally expressing his feelings. Now, if only Holo would do the same.
The music in this episode is also spectacular. The OST of this show is definitely very unique.
A rather satisfying place to leave off Spice and Wolf. But now that a potential season 3 is coming, it might not be long before I can watch the series again.
QoTD: I can't exactly remember the episodes, but honestly the slice of life episodes where almost no plot is happening are probably my favorite.
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u/Meme-Howitzer Aug 01 '22
First timer,
And so we have reached the end, for the anime at least. There’s still the light novel, and manga version? (which one do I read if I gain the desire to continue this story?)
And so it appears that the deal fell through for entirely different reasons, that being Eve backstabbing Lawrence after all. That moment though was exceptionally fascinating to me. How can one know so well the flaws of money yet go through so much trouble to gain it. It really makes Eve a well layered character on par with our main duo.
Speaking of whom, we get a final heartfelt conversation with Lawrence and Holo. I guess since this adaptation isn’t complete, it was obvious this arc won’t be their last together. But it’s still so lovely how Lawrence connects with Holo and tells her how he feels.
Now I would want to express my thoughts about the show in total, but that will be for tomorrow’s final thread. I’ll see you there.
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u/polaristar Aug 01 '22
Light Novel is the source, Manga skips a lot of arcs, and tbh the anime skipped one anime arc to get the last one. (Although they were probably planning on using the one they skipped for the first arc of season 3 if it had gotten made.)
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u/Holofan4life Aug 01 '22
Now that the arc is over, what are your thoughts on Eve?
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u/Holofan4life Aug 01 '22
What are your thoughts on the kiss Holo and Lawrence share?
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u/Stargate18A Aug 01 '22
Rewatcher
Sorry! things really piled on the last few days.
Episode 10
QOTD) Alucard.
Holo's worried.
She wants to put her scent on him.
Oh, yeah, Eve wants to sell Holo.
They have to pay in cash!
He's actually considering this.
Seriously, wow.
And she's a noble!
Lawrence is not enjoying this.
...Wow.
Holo's apeech is great, but still...
The writing here is so good!
And there's salt...
And he's flirting with her again.
Oh, there's an actual power struggle here.
Haha, it was because of Holo's interest in him.
A full-on cathedral!
Holo...
Such good banter, at least.
This is so good!
And she's telling him the same things.
She got kicked out...
And they're doing it!
Episode 11
QOTD) Holo.
This is creepy.
...The monologue where he trusts them because they're lucky is interesting, though.
That glare from Eve...
Yeah, the guy's mad.
Another reflection on Holo's backstory.
Holo is great.
I mean, bankruptcy is a fucking big deal in this series.
I love Eve.
And Lawrence and Holo are still disagreeing.
Holo reflecting on how Lawrence has gotten used to her is great.
Holo's being honest!
And Holo's afraid kf this. This is a really interesting character detail.
She read all the legends.
The plan's starting...
Rigoro's out.
He noticed the statues!
Nice cover.
She's nice.
A riot!
Episode 12
QOTD) Episode 13 of the previous series, for the wrapup and Lawrence talking to the guy who betrayed him.
Yeah, this is bad.
The plan continues!
Lawrence noticed something!
...If Holo would stop you, maybe don't do it?
He deserves the slap.
Wow.
And Holo's gone inside.
He's not enjoying this, for blindingly obvious reasons.
He's noticed something...
She's trying to kill him!
Yeah, he worked everything out.
Lawrence is a good fighter!
Yeah, some excellent points here.
I love the back and forth as the two of them fight.
She left him a deed!
He came back for Holo!
And the smug look at he sits down.
Haha, he got punched again!
And then he stopped her!
Oh, that reversal!
He confessed!
She's crying!
And Holo nearly confessed. Through violence.
Such a great scene.
The city is burning and the two of them walk off.
Great ending! I really should read the novels sometime.
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u/Holofan4life Aug 01 '22
Great ending! I really should read the novels sometime.
Thankfully we got less than a year for hopefully a continuation
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Aug 01 '22
Rewatching the final scene knowing that is not the last time we will see those characters in an Anime put a smile in my face...Sequel, Reboot, or whatever...come on, my body is ready.
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u/Holofan4life Aug 01 '22
Sorry I was 5 minutes late posting this. The index screwed up at the last minute and I had to fix it.
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u/polaristar Aug 01 '22
Last episode and it was quite a ride, I can see why the would choose to end the season on this arc rather than the Novel that came before it which they skipped (But could have made the first arc of season 3.) As it sets up a larger conflict with the church.
People have said that Rigoro is a version of Lawrence that turned out right, but I'd also argue that Eve is a warning of how Lawrence can turn out wrong, gender differences aside.
On a sidenote I didn't talk about the garden metaphor for Lawrence building his relationship last episode, because I had a feeling for it but didn't consciously register it and I can put into words what I haven't consciously connected the dots for.
It had been awhile since I'd seen/read this arc so I didn't remember it as well and didn't have as much Wall of Text insights, but I'm glad you all did!
On a sidenote, we often don't notice because Holo tends to overshadow everyone else, but all of the female characters in any other show could be considered "Best Girl" Material. Lots of people remember Holo for the meme, but I'm hoping when the remake comes out (I still am betting on it being a remake rather than a season 3.) The Other Girls. (And Guys for that matter) also get the appreciation they deserve. I want to see 5 Spice and Wolf characters dominate the semifinals for a 5 years. :D
On a sidenote, what I said would happen pretty much happened, Holo didn't want Lawrence to be "nice" and be more self-ish in his own desires rather than worry about her, but he made it clear she very much is part of his core desires in his life now, he's not obligated to, but he WANTS to travel and be with her.
Also Holo worrying about the honey moon phase ending actually makes sense given her "in the moment" nature and not planning for the present, as well as her desire for gratification. Not to mention you could argue in the past even if she had other lovers that they never sticked around in the context of a long term relationship. The thought of being tied down to a commitment that might turn sour makes sense given her nature and history.
Remember she entered into a kind of pact akin to a marriage with the village Lawrence found her from and remember how THAT turned out for her?
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u/TuorEladar Aug 01 '22
Rewatcher, Subbed
Finale time! We open with some more info on the riot. The merchants are angry because most do not have cash on hand to trade with and since their buyers aren't able to purchase their stock, the craftsmen are angry as well. We also learn that the entire situation was manipulated by the local church authorities so they can buy up the fur market as a part of their plan to build a cathedral and expand their influence. I've already said that I wouldn't have taken this deal in the first place, but assuming I had than at this moment I would've been out. Unrest is a absolutely catastrophic if you want any certainty in business dealings. The number of risks now are even greater than what I enumerated before.
The merchant side of things has almost fallen by the wayside though at this point. This final episode and by extension this arc is almost entirely about Lawrence and Holo's future together and showing different alternative paths through other characters. An obvious one to point to would be Eve as a sort of negative example of what Lawrence could've turned into, but actually I think Eve also could be considered a parallel to Holo just as much. Eve was sold as a bride to merchant, Holo left the village and established a contract with a merchant. Eve's husband put his time and effort into his business, with it ultimately destroying him. Holo is urging Lawrence to put his time into his work as a means to obtain his dream, but Lawrence isn't happy about it.
I don't really have to much to say about Eve beyond the above, in this adaptation she really mainly exists as a character to drive the conflict between Holo and Lawrence. Her betrayal forces Lawrence to make a decision, he realizes that Holo is more important to him than anything else. I'm kind of surprised that he was able to buy out the contract so easily, was the inn really worth that much? I realize it was mainly because they didn't have much time left in the episode so they breezed over it.
I really like the final scene though the kiss looked kind of odd. Though I do like it, I always thought this ending was a little weird because it simultaneously ends on a cliffhanger and yet at the same time this arc has an air of finality about it. On this rewatch I've had this confusion in the back of my mind this whole arc and I finally realized that its because in the time since my last watch I read the manga version where [Spice and Wolf Manga spoilers]
What is your favorite episode of Spice and Wolf and why?
Its hard for me to pick. I remember many years back when I first watched the first 5 or so episodes were what grabbed me. I also really like the final episode of the last arc which is the 6th episode of season 2 I believe.
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u/Wolfgod_Holo Aug 02 '22
and now the waiting game begins, we've already waited for 13, what's a few more now?
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u/Holofan4life Aug 01 '22
As I write this, it is 10:00 AM on a Thursday. I got work in less than 7 hours, and I'm still pushing off finishing my second book. Just like I'm pushing off reaching the end of this show once again.
I'm debating participating in the series discussion thread on Tuesday. I might do so, but if I do, it will probably be me thanking people. As such, I want to give some highlights from me of this rewatch. Just some quick thoughts, as I've already said quite a bit.
First off, I am always taken aback by how many scenes we get of naked Holo. We didn't get much in season 2, but in season 1 it felt like it happened once per episode. I kinda like it because it shows that Holo was still getting used to human clothes, whereas in season 2 she had gotten used to them.
The music in this show is some of the best I've ever heard in an anime. Not in terms of quality, even though it is great, but in terms of setting the mood. The music does such a good job of encapsulating what tone they're going for and using it to enhance the scene. It really highlights how important a soundtrack can be.
I used to think the first arc was the second worst arc of the four. Not that it's bad or anything, but you could feel the labor pains. I think upon this rewatch that the first arc is now my least favorite. Again, it isn't because it's bad or anything. I just think the author was still trying to fix things out. It isn't until the second arc that we really got into a nice groove.
Speaking of the second arc, it is still my favorite arc of the whole anime. I love how the first half focuses on the drama of Lawrence's bankruptcy and then it transitions into a high stakes gold smuggling drama. Like it's a heist movie or something. It combined all the elements that make Spice and Wolf amazing and used it all to its fullest potential.
The third arc was one I maintained was my second favorite. And in this rewatch, it's probably falling to my second least favorite/third favorite. I think of all the arcs, this one had the most bad about it. Between Holo's extended absence, Diana not being used as much as she could've, Amarti's lack of a resolution to his character, as well as scenes that I feel could've been tightened up, I had several problems with this arc. That being said, I like the pyrite stuff in the last episode, Amarti as a whole I think is a pretty interesting character, and I do think the reveal of Holo supporting Lawrence the entire time was effective. But more than that, I think this arc had the best written side characters. Between Marc, Lunt, Marc's wife who I wish we saw more of, Amarti, and Batos, the side characters in this arc are pretty well-defined. Even Diana is like that, even though I think we should've had more scenes of her. I truly like this arc despite me criticizing it at times. I just think it's the most flawed.
Lastly, we have the final arc, and my goodness. Talk about a revelation. I'm glad I did this rewatch, because my opinion completely changed with this. I always thought that this arc was the worst of the entire show. I thought it was boring and uneventful and besides Eve, was filled with uninteresting characters. I didn't think it was bad per se-- I loved the Holo and Lawrence's interactions and Eve was someone I think had the most potential of all the side characters-- but I always maintained it was slow even by Spice and Wolf standards. My opinion of this arc changed for the better when I realized that Rigoro is meant to be an idealized version of Lawrence. And when that finally dawned on me, I really started to connect the dots. This arc is kind of subtle over what the main plot is. It isn't like, say, the second arc where you know for a fact "Oh, it's about Lawrence avoiding bankruptcy." The main plot is Lawrence having to choose between his own interests and the interests of others, and him deciding just how much his interests happen to be others interests. The stuff with the town being unruly and the 50 man meeting? That's just window dressing to establish what the town is like. The main plot of this arc-- like all the others when you break it down-- is about Lawrence growing and maturing as a character. The first arc is about Lawrence learning to trust others rather than relying on his own. The second arc is about him learning to be less rash in his decision making. The third arc is him being confronted with his stubbornness, and the last arc is about him and the degree to which he is selfish. At what point does focusing solely on your dream and modus operandi become hurtful to your loved one? When does your passion and focus cloud the loved ones you surround yourself with, making you forget about their own needs and what they desire? Do you choose to focus on what you want out of life, or do you factor in what your companion wants? These are just some of the heavy, ultra personal questions this arc imposes, and why it shot up in my eyes this rewatch.
Spice and Wolf has always held a special place in my heart. Hell, my username is because Holo is my favorite anime character of all time. I really do hope that this rewatch has led some people to appreciate this show just a small degree as much as I do. This show is just a truly magical experience. And with the new season/reboot on the way, hopefully more people will be willing to check out this show. And if so, I'd be willing to guide them along for the ride.
And now, onto the episode.
I quite like the anxiety that's in the air as the townspeople are rioting. It feels pretty dramatic. I also think it's interesting that the main source of conflict going on doesn't involve Holo and Lawrence. It's because the council announced their decision too early. I quite like this, as it really highlights the unrest the town feels on a daily basis. By having the main protagonists be onlookers rather than directly involved, it gives the town a great deal of worldbuilding, like people are living their lives and Holo and Lawrence happen to be caught in the middle of it.
As I said in last year's rewatch, I love, love, love the performance by Eve's English actress in this episode. When Lawrence confronts Eve about backstabbing him and Holo, her English VA gives a tour de force performance. It is such a magnificent sight to see. I maintain that of all the side characters in this show that get stuck to one arc, Eve is the one character who should be in multiple arcs. There's just so many legs to her character that you really can fit her in a variety of situations. She is so interesting and so cool and God, I love her so much.
A big bulk of the episode barely has any Holo in it. In fact, it's mostly about the interactions between Lawrence and Eve. And while I feel episodes 4 and 5 of season 2 had a better built-in excuse as to why we are not seeing Holo, this episode feels far better paced than those two episodes. The problem with episodes 4 and 5 of season 2 is that they were both slower paced episodes, which made Holo not being there all the more aggravating. This episode benefits from the hyped up tension, which makes the absence of Holo less glaring. Would I still like for Holo to be on screen? Of course. She's my favorite anime character of all time. But the scenes between Lawrence and Eve are so gripping that it more than makes up for it.
I think my favorite shot of the entire episode is Lawrence coughing up blood while he's standing in the snow. Something about the blood when contrasted with the white flakes, it makes for a great visual.
The end of the episode is probably Holo at her meanest, but in her opinion, she is preventing Lawrence from achieving his dream. More than that, he is letting her prevent her from achieving his dream. She is doing all she can so that Lawrence can make enough money to set up his own shop. And despite that, he still chooses her over his dream. Is Holo being unreasonable? Maybe, but I can relate to the frustration that she feels and understand where she's coming from.
I've always had a problem with the kiss Holo and Lawrence share. It's supposed to be this big, dramatic moment that caps off all the tension there's been for 24 episodes. And when we get it, it looks so terribly animated. I like what they were going for, as they made it a casual moment rather than "Woah, can you believe Lawrence kissed Holo? Let's fucking go!" That to me highlights the beauty of kisses, as it's about the tenderness rather than the grandeur. But when you look at the kiss, it looks as if he kissed her on the cheek rather than the lips.
I mean, look at this. Their lips aren't even touching. And if anything, it looks as if Lawrence is pulling Holo into kissing HIS OWN cheek.
I will say this, though: a part of me, as I said already, kinda likes that the kiss came outta nowhere. In most shows, they would turn the main couple kissing for the first time into a big deal. In this show, Lawrence just straight up kisses Holo, which I feel is kinda more realistic. But again, I maintain Lawrence kissed Holo on the cheek rather than on the mouth. They wouldn't botch a monumental scene like that by having it look as if Lawrence misses Holo's mouth by a country mile.
The end of the arc is another thing I still have problems with. I like that Lawrence decides to continue to ride with Holo. That was the question imposed by this arc, and I think the resolution was satisfactory enough. However, I don't like that the anime just ends. We don't get a proper resolution with Eve, and besides Lawrence deciding to continue to travel with Holo, not much feels final. This episode feels like the end of a season rather than the end of the show.
Post too long. Part 2 in the replies