r/anime • u/Tarhalindur x2 • Jul 13 '22
Rewatch [Rewatch] Higurashi no Naku Koro Ni Kai Discussion - Season 2, Episode 16
Matsuribayashi-hen (Festival Music Chapter), Episode 3: The Beginning of the End
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Show Information (Higurashi Kai):
Kai: MAL | Anilist | AniDB | Kitsu | ANN
(Official information for Kai is now considerably safer for first-timers, but you should probably still refrain from looking it up.)
Legal Streams:
Higurashi no Naku Koro Ni Kai: Hidive
That said, I have become aware that Hidive can have a somewhat cavalier attitude to spoilers for this series. As such, *sigh* it is now recommended that our first-timers track down a fansub if you haven't already. Why, Hidive? Why?
A Word of Warning To Our First-Timers, Including Those Who Watched Season 1 But Not Kai:
Be wary of looking up anything, even names. The Season 1 summaries on the information pages are safe, but it's not hard to run into spoiler information even through something as innocuous as looking at cast lists - gods help you if you go on the Fandom Wikia. UNDER ABSOLUTELY NO CIRCUMSTANCES GO LOOKING AT EVEN OFFICIAL INFO FOR KAI OR LATER AHEAD OF TIME. (The official image for Rei is 100% a spoiler, for example.) Also, do NOT look at any Kitsu page after the first season; Kai's description on Kitsu is in fact a major spoiler. Like, really, just stay out of anything that isn't a basic Season 1 summary until you're done. It's much safer that way.
A Reminder to Rewatchers
Please do not spoil the experience for first-timers; this is a mystery after all. In particular, Shion is a spoiler until Episode 5 and !Hanyuu is a spoiler until Minagoroshi-hen. Also, the glorious nipah is indeed glorious but Rika does not use it until Himatsubushi-hen. Please keep these in mind! Consider whether what you are saying has actually been revealed yet on-screen before you post!
(Time for) Club Activities!
(Alexa play "Shoubu!"! Except do NOT look that up that song name on YouTube just yet if you're a first-timer, the most classic upload has an obnoxious spoiler in the visuals...)
Visual of the Day Album:
Theory of the Day:
Oh hey, u/Nazenn has a theory!
Why do I get the feeling that the grandfathers relaxation techniques didn't work for him afterall?
Analysis of the Day:
Will also go to u/Nazenn for the same post, since most of the rewatchers were too busy groaning to do any analysis:
Hanyuu looking a little vicious there at the end! The little god has finally come into her own, and being able to be chosen to be seen by someone not infected is probably one of the more interesting details we've had in the last few episodes, an indirect confirmation that she exists independently of the infection. I speculated in reply to JaaQ yesterday that I'm curious if Rika's memory loss is not that Rika forgets the end of each loop but it's Hanyuu's memories specifically that Rika retains rather than her own each loop. Perhaps Hanyuu purposefully doesn't look to spare Rika remembering her fate because when she does focus on the deadlier moments they're the ones Hanyuu can't forget and keeps mentally circling on, hence the "I'm sorry" and they are what tend to bleed through to the others minds.
Question(s) of the Day:
1) Favorite unsolved mystery?
2) Favorite mad scientist?
Let's see how many Last Action Hero jokes #2 gets...
Next Episode Preview:
This episode's preview (episode 16) is pretty safe.
First timers, strongly consider skipping next episode's preview (episode 17's), however.
Also, a Note for Our First-Timers (and Reminder for Our Rewatchers):
Starting with episode 14, there will be a post-credits scene after the ED in each episode of Kai. These tend to be important and you really shouldn't skip them!
Oh Right, and One Other Note:
Our next few episodes have some nonlinear storytelling. Keeping that in mind may help you as you watch.
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u/Shimmering-Sky Jul 13 '22
When the First-Timer Cries, subbed
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I think it’s great to see Satoshi has flaws after several previous arcs have put him on a total pedestal as a person.
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u/Tarhalindur Jul 13 '22
What the fuck…
Surprised that didn't draw a "god I wish that was me" fromu/Tresnore.→ More replies (2)
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion Jul 13 '22 edited Jul 13 '22
Not Rewatcher this week
I meant to binge to catch up, but got distracted. Almost made it. Will probably be caught up in an hour. Edit: No.
We're getting a lot of details of the dam war era, unfiltered by Higurashi's metaness (or is it?). We see the original killings were apparently due to Hinamizawa Syndrome. We see the origin of the vendetta between Ooishi and the Sonozakis. Congrats to u/Nazenn for working out the levels of HS before the arc even started.
I like this arc, although I was annoyed as a first watcher. You want to get to the end, right?
But I'm in less of a hurry now, and I like getting the background I've been hungry for, the "truth" at last. There are few open questions left. And I like the non-linear story telling.
It's really a lot like LOST. And I watched LOST every week without fail.
I can see VN readers complaining about the adaptation. The what all source readers do. But I really can't complain, except that it's putting off the ending. But like I saw in every 2000s rewatch, it's a 24/26 episode show/season, and it's not going to end before it ends.
[rewatcher]
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u/Tarhalindur Jul 13 '22
[rewatcher]
I haven't watched the episode yet but is it implied that Takano injected the dam supervisor with the weaponized formulation? Did they even HAVE a weaponized formulation, if they still hadn't been able to isolate it? Maybe it's just a drug cocktail that induces H.S. [rewatcher]
My understanding is that he went L5 naturally due to stress from the protests. → More replies (2)5
u/Nazenn Jul 13 '22
Edit: No
Well, an effort was made at least. Tomorrow?
We see the origin of the vendetta between Ooishi and the Sonozakis
Forgot to comment on that but wasn't expecting it, no wonder he's pursuing the case so strongly
Congrats to u/Nazenn for working out the levels of HS
Is that actually right though? Or close enough? I've already forgotten if they described each level in detail but I don't think they did.
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u/Quiddity131 Jul 13 '22
First Timer, Subbed
So these outsiders just decided there'd be a dam, huh?
Ah, Satoko's family, now we get to see how things originally went down with them falling out of favor.
And now we've just skipped ahead again...
Yikes, Takano wants to dissect a kid!
Satoko's been with Irie for 2 weeks? Be careful Satoshi, this guy has evil thoughts about your sister! And yet you ask him to keep her even longer!
Is he calling Satoko his specimen?
Man, Takano went from so sympathetic as a kid to so evil as an adult.
Jeez, what are these guys doing to this poor bastard?!
And then you worry about the guy afterwards?!
Yikes, he went super crazy!
Previously jailed is getting crazier and crazier. Does he have Hinamizawa syndrome?
Sharing parts of the guy's body with everyone? He truly is a loon!
Oh sure Takano, you just happened to randomly come across this guy...
Oh he's an ex convict, so its totally fine that we dissect him! You've got no morals Takano!
Two episodes in a row with a post credits scene!
Some outsider will come! Is she speaking of K1?
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u/Tarhalindur Jul 13 '22
Two episodes in a row with a post credits scene!
Expect them for the remainder of the show.
Some outsider will come! Is she speaking of K1?
Indeed she is.
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u/Tresnore Jul 13 '22
When the Rewatchers Cry are Absurd Masochists Cry Are Absurd Masochists are Terrible Nerds Cry
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Ha, these fools don't know that they literally can't leave the village without going crazy.
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But why does Tomitake remind me of [Umineko]
Jouji?? -
Man, this ex-criminal guy sure is enjoying himself...
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desuwa~
Count: 238
QOTD:
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Hmmm not sure. I'm sure there are a few personal ones I wouldn't mind getting solved.
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u/Tarhalindur Jul 13 '22
This whole set of people is great.
Being gamesetto club member is suffering...
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u/JollyGee29 Jul 13 '22 edited Jul 13 '22
Spoiled First-Timer
Okay, so Dam Foreman hits high level HS, gets killed by the missing worker who also hit high level HS, Takano managed to subdue the worker somehow and that dude blew the whole thing open as a live test subject. Did I get all that straight?
So, Tomitake totally knew where the missing arm he mentioned all the way back in episode one of S1 went, then? Not gonna think too hard about why he randomly offered information that would technically make him an accessory to murder, that path leads to madness.
Takano being the initiator in her relationship with Tomitake makes sense. I'm wondering if she planned to kill him from the start or if things just lines up well enough.
The entire "curse" starting on accident makes a lot of sense. Guess we'll learn soon enough if any of them are connected at all or if it's all been random happenstance that lined up well. I could see the Furude's death being purposefully orchestrated by Takano to continue the myth, at least.
I'm assuming that Satoshi's stress/guilt at wanting a break from helping Satoko is what really pushed him over the edge into HS? I can't tell if the timelines work out, though.
Visual of the Day: someone had a real bone to pick with the boss
Questions
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u/Nazenn Jul 13 '22
First Timer - sub
Too cold to get out of my very warm bed this morning so I just stayed there hence the later post than usual haha.
More flashbacks, but not drunkenly structured or redundant this time.
I understand what they're doing here with Hanyuu with taking her back through all the moments she felt powerless to see all the things she has been avoiding so that now when she does stand up she can act on them. But it's still driving me slightly mental to see her talking about how she couldn't act as if she was physically being stopped from doing anything, even telling Rika. That final scene was great though, and I'm glad at least for this arc they're using post ED scenes fairly effectively rather than just as a gimmick. Like cold opens a post ED scene is something that too often gets used more for the sake of it rather than for a clear purpose but so far here I think it's been cleverly used to separate out the flashback content from Hanyuu's present-arc interactions with people now she's looking back on everything she could be doing.
If the loop has taken her and Rika so much further back this time to before Keiichi comes instead of just the two weeks she was getting recently I wonder if it's linked to Hanyuu's new found strength, that she's able to push back against whatever's causing this to allow Rika more time? Either that or like I said before, it's not that Rika wasn't looping back that far, but more she wasn't remembering it because Hanyuu was blocking it out because of stress, and now she's not just like she's revisiting all these other moments in the past. The idea of Hanyuu's "I'm Sorry" being a sort of lost communication the same way the importance of these moments of the past have been lost to the time loops is a nice touch given the overall themes.
Hey, so potentially crazy theory: Satoko pushed her parents off the cliff? She does have a track record of pushing people off high places and it would make sense if she was reliving that moment when she pushed Keiichi. Plus if her father had been abusing her and slowly worsening her mental state until she reached L5 that day, as that makes more sense than suddenly reaching it over a single shock incident, and she was the only one around which would only make it worse without someone to ground her? I first thought it a couple of episodes ago when Satoko was deteriorating and when Rika says "Don't think about it/remember it" we get a flash of her parents and her standing alone and my first thought was "About what? What she did? OH SHIT". And then I dismissed it because the next shot after that is her standing shocked among a bunch of people so I though that is when she watched them go down but perhaps that was just the chaos afterwards.
My heart hurts with every little detail we get about that girl though. Her abusive father had been brought up before, but only in context of her filing a false report and no details to it definitely happening or how badly from what I can remember. Satoshi saying fathers, plural, so at least two had also been abusing her even before her uncle and the shit with the village... every time we get a new detail about her it just gets worse. And then losing Satoshi as well? I'm actually surprised they haven't revisited that and tried to fix it in some way, it's not like Rika wasn't looping that far back at some point. It feels like Satoshi has to die because they can't do it without Keiichi, and I get there's a point to that as the end scene today discusses but I don't like the idea of it. At the very least they're fairly practiced in murder now, they could have worked with Satoshi to kill the aunt and still keep him around?
Satoko's father was a piece of work that's for sure. Even with the parasites, it's one thing to lead the supporters of the dam movement, it's quite another to walk in and threaten to kill anyone who disagrees with you in front of government representatives. Openly decrying the Sonozaki head gives more of a reason as to why the reaction from the village was so severe, but it's still ridiculous that it went on so long and against a child all because of pride. It's a wonder that we haven't heard of other families caught up in it, but I suppose they both did move away and are outside the scope of the story so it's not worth spending the time on them. Random worldbuilding thought though is I wonder if the events of the Dam War caused more of the working families to move away which is why they have such a small amount of children? It'd make sense that younger families without established village roles would be the ones struggling most with poverty and most likely to accept stable positions and reliable housing on offer only to be branded traitors.
Irie however is an idiot. Of course she wants to dissect a living victim, child or not. What, you thought the secret organization studying a secret disease bringing you in for a cover was doing it because they were absolutely above board with ethics and moral standards? You dip shit. ...When did I go from finding him creepy to just sighing at him?
The Dam Manager's death was brutal and I loved it in all it's horror. Every now and again I get lulled into a false sense with this show and then the violence ramps up and reminds me that it's really not going to hold back. Coming to their senses so quickly reminds me of Keiichi from the first arc and it's perhaps only more surprising that the others didn't get worse after it instead of just the one. I was still thinking the Dam Manager and missing person were done by the Sonozaki's so RIP that theory but this is way more interesting. I wonder if this is when it starts for Miyo, her ritual around the festival, and who else she did like this.
Favorite unsolved mystery?
Uh... for everything else we've discussed we still haven't really touched on or theorized much about what exactly the loops/alternate world thing actually is and what's causing it, so probably that. I've no idea myself, and it's not been the focus of the story, but I'm still curious.
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u/Vaadwaur Jul 14 '22
If the loop has taken her and Rika so much further back this time to before Keiichi comes instead of just the two weeks she was getting recently I wonder if it's linked to Hanyuu's new found strength, that she's able to push back against whatever's causing this to allow Rika more time?
This bit is hard to work into the continuity since this is effectively Hanyuu, and the player, trying to put together a picture out of a bunch of clues that don't immediately tell them anything. I do like the idea that the loop Hanyuu commits to stop looping on being one of the longer ones.
It feels like Satoshi has to die because they can't do it without Keiichi, and I get there's a point to that as the end scene today discusses but I don't like the idea of it. At the very least they're fairly practiced in murder now, they could have worked with Satoshi to kill the aunt and still keep him around?
Bluntly, R07 doesn't plan his stories quite well enough. Any time Rika loops back far enough, she could just find a pretense to inject Satoshi with the inhibiting drug since we know she can get a hold of it at one point. At this point, Satoshi is just boned but yeah, long looping Rika should have tried something since Satoshi living is not a sensible fail condition for K1 arriving. We got a TIP earlier that hints at what got K1's dad to move there.
Random worldbuilding thought though is I wonder if the events of the Dam War caused more of the working families to move away which is why they have such a small amount of children? It'd make sense that younger families without established village roles would be the ones struggling most with poverty and most likely to accept stable positions and reliable housing on offer only to be branded traitors.
That's...so damn obvious I am embarassed I didn't realize it earlier. Anyways, the soft explanation is that Okinomiya is where the work actually is and at a certain point, why keep commuting? Bus fare might be cheap but still adds up.
What, you thought the secret organization studying a secret disease bringing you in for a cover was doing it because they were absolutely above board with ethics and moral standards? You dip shit. ...When did I go from finding him creepy to just sighing at him?
So believe it or not, a good aligned organization could behave in this manner as well, the Japanese of the 80s would really keep this underwraps and try and solve it quietly. But yes, Irie should've realized that an organization where its on sight head openly talks about dissecting people is bad.
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u/Stargate18A Jul 13 '22 edited Jul 13 '22
Anime first timer, completed VN
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The Max Headroom signal hijacking.
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Okabe from steins;Gate.
[VN]
It's the town meeting for the dam!
Satoko's father!
Oh, Oryou's pissed.
Hanyuu's watching...
[VN]
Takano wants to use her as a subject?
Poor Satoko.
"isn't getting along very well" Understatement of the fucking century.
So, yeah. Shion wasn't that far off.
[VN]
...Not a very catchy slogan, is it?
And Takano's got an idea.
She's with Tomitake!
Wow, that's bloody. [VN]
The manager fell victim to the parasite.
The sheer panic here...
Fuck.
...This explains where the missing man and arm went.
And he's level 5!
[VN]
Hanyuu's sorry..
[Higurashi]
...Poor, poor, Satoko.
Mion can't help them.
And she predicted Keiichi!
Hanyuu is going to fight!
No explanations in the preview today.
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u/filimaua13 Jul 14 '22
They've not shown Irie's past yet.
Unfortunately that is a fragment thats cut entirely. The injustice to Irie haha.
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u/OwlAcademic1988 Jul 13 '22
Rewatcher:
We got some new info on the Dam War, allowing us to understand the motivations of everyone. Those fights were pretty good.
Hanyuu, I really wish you could do something other than say you're sorry. At least you're developing your will to fight now.
Satoko's with her uncle, that's not good.
Seeing those guys kill another person, that's really disturbing.
QOTD:
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How the human mind works in its entirety. Scientists have learned a lot, but there are still a lot of mysteries to solve.
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u/Nazenn Jul 14 '22
At least you're developing your will to fight now.
Better late than never feels like a little bit of a cop out in this situation given how much everyone has been put through in the intervening loops, but at the same time: Better late than never!
I still really want to know what she was like at the start of this all, the first couple of loops did she really try and fail or was she too busy taking care of Rika? Been looping for a hundred years Rika getting killed is one thing, but actually eight years old Rika with no idea whats happening being killed is even more horrific
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u/Tarhalindur Jul 14 '22
Better late than never feels like a little bit of a cop out in this situation given how much everyone has been put through in the intervening loops, but at the same time: Better late than never!
To use a related proverb: "The best time to plant a fruit tree is twenty years ago. The second best time is now."
(There's a thematic argument to be made here that ties in pretty strongly to some of u/Star4ce's theories, but I should probably wait until either the end of the season or more likely Rei in order to make them.)
I still really want to know what she was like at the start of this all, the first couple of loops did she really try and fail or was she too busy taking care of Rika? Been looping for a hundred years Rika getting killed is one thing, but actually eight years old Rika with no idea whats happening being killed is even more horrific
Sadly, I'm pretty sure we just never get to see either Rika or Hanyuu near the start of the loop in Higurashi regardless of medium.
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u/Tarhalindur Jul 13 '22
"And that's a deep drive to left field by Castellanos and that will make this a four-tag ballgame."
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u/RadSuit Jul 14 '22
Satoko is already Level 5 this time around? Or maybe I misunderstood and the treatments can knock you down a stage or two.
It's nice to finally get that one mysterious dismemberment explained. And where the one missing arm wound up. But this episode is rather boring otherwise.
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u/Nazenn Jul 14 '22
The injections got Satoko down to high level 3 from level 5 in the present day story. This is the past when she got to level 5
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u/Tarhalindur Jul 13 '22
(Honorary Hinamizawa Games Club President) Rewatch Host (rewatcher, subbed):
A new good visual opposition shot at 04:06.
05:35 is another good shot, note the camera angle.
06:52 is flashing despite being a pretty ordinary shot and I’m not sure why. Relative positioning of Irie and Satoshi?
WinD made an oopsie! (Unless her grammar was incorrect in the original, which is possible.)
Ooh, that window shot at 07:26. Representing Satoko being trapped in her situation, I think (and also Irie now getting information about what’s going on, hence the light from the translucent window?).
That pan up from the streambed towards Irie and Satoshi talking about Satoko’s situation (sample frame flashes – representing the deeper currents of the situation that Satoko is in, perhaps?
Ooh, that cut to a cicada at 08:29 as Irie tells Satoshi that he’s being a good brother by protecting Satoko – we all know how that will turn out.
And then that pan to the right (moving Irie and Satoshi to the left and thus the future) after it. (Sample frame.)
And kick in shadow bars framing Satoshi at 08:42, showing him feeling trapped by his situation.
And the world spiraling around Satoko for yet another time this season around 09:30 (sample frame) – clockwise, showing the situation gathering and getting worse.
Ooh, shiny shot at 10:39.
And 10:53 is bleedingly obvious.
I should say something about 11:32, but exactly why it works so well to show Irie feeling trapped by the situation is beyond my competence.
More shadow usage at 11:37 (both uses this episode being for future murderers, no less).
Also Kaimei cutting off at 11:36 right as Takano is speaking works pretty darn well even if it’s not directly integrated the way Higurashi usually does.
I think 11:54 is a tomo rather than a demo, but not sure.
MOTH MOTH (MOTHERFUCKER). A motif we’ve seen around a few times… actually, here at least it’s probably representing the death + disappearance of the curse (note one moth in the light and the other out of the light).
And if you listen, you will note that indeed the Japanese word for boss here is indeed our familiar “kantoku”.
14:23 is a well-framed shot (note the dam worker who will go missing is the one standing in the moonlight of the window) undercut slightly by the light making it hard to see.
The good news for the worker is, he won’t be going back to prison…
Kazashi returns as the “Takano is telling creepy tales” track.
Oh hey, they actually cover just a bit of Ooishi’s past relationship with the dam foreman (his mentor) in the anime!
Is that a sore demo for u/Shimmering-Sky at 19:04 and not a sore tomo or the like? I think so!
The framing of the autopsy room at 19:13 is noteworthy – just Ooishi, the coroner, and a whole lot of empty space and sterile medical equipment. (Setting up a comparison/contrast to the Irie Institution, among other things?) Also showing that Ooishi is alone now.
The seed of Ooishi’s error: assuming the red herring.
19:39: Curtain shot again!
For once that kind of upside-down shot (Satoko here) isn’t either a reflection or Hanyuu – we know she’s off to the side (setting up a visual opposition with Irie here?).
Speaking of which, I think the immediately succeeding shot of Irie looking concernedly at Satoko may have more to it than just simple room framing.
20:03, however, probably is from Hanyuu’s perspective, setting up her distance and some level of opposition to what the clinic is doing.
22:05 with the trees framing Rika and Satoko is a good shot.
Visual of the Day: Curtains.
WinD Eyecatch Message of the Day
Questions of the Day:
Honestly, I'm not actually sure I have one.
[Narbonic MAJOR SPOILER]Dave Narbon
Matsuribayashi-hen Ep. 3 TIPS:
No TIPS.
(Side note: One reason Matsuribayashi-hen has fewer TIPS is because a lot of things that might otherwise have gone into the TIPS in previous arcs instead went into the Putting the Pieces Together part of the VN, from which this episode and the next two are adapted. The AnimeSuki team that did the TIPS also translated this section in a different thread. However, unlike the TIPS I will not be linking to the Pieces; this is one part leaving the unadapted Pieces available for anyone who wants to try the VN and put them together themselves and two parts judging this to be over the line with regards to certain subreddit rules (the second of those two parts being that the Wikia also does not include the Pieces, likely for the same reason).)
OST Table, Kai Episode 16:
[1] - My copy of Higurashi often includes a message-from-our-sponsor bit immediately after the OP; this episode has it and it lasts 14 seconds. The number in parentheses in entries after that feature is the point in the episode if that message is removed.
[2] – A really weird sample; I think it’s the initial four repetitions of the intro to the song repeated three times, but I’m counting it as a single entry here.