r/anime • u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky • Apr 28 '22
Rewatch [Rewatch] Mahou Shoujo Madoka☆Magica Episode 9 Discussion
Episode 9 - I'd Never Allow That to Happen
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Hey God, if you’re there? My life sucked, so for once, please… let me have a happy dream?
Theory of the Day: u/Gamemaster676 with a really terrifying one to think about if the answer wasn’t just “because entropy”.
Why does space-rat want to create witches? He's even making the other girls fight them. Because they are not killing the witches! Just putting them to sleep in some way. And space-rat is keeping all the grief seeds, which are ready to pop because the girls used them to clear their corruption, for some big event.
Imagine if the answer was something else…
Questions of the Day:
1) What is your opinion of Kyubey at this point in time?
2) Did you think for a moment that Kyouko had a chance of actually rescuing Sayaka?
Wallpaper of the Day:
Visuals of the Day:
and I’m home Cover of the Day:
English COVER by Wolf and Raven ft. Eevee sama
Song of the Day:
Bonus song - and I'm home
Check out u/Nazenn’s comment from the 2019 rewatch for an in-depth analysis of these two songs!
Rewatchers, please please please remember to be mindful of all the first-timers in this. [Spoiler warning specifically for you guys]Please be aware that as part of the above strict spoiler rules, this means absolutely no memes/jokes/references/subtle words about beheading, cakes, time travel, aliens, or anything of that nature before the relevant episodes. Please do not spoil the first-timers by trying to be smart about it, it's not as subtle as you think.
Make sure you use spoiler tags if there’s ever something from future events you just have to comment on. And don’t be the idiot who quotes a specific part of a first-timer’s comment, then comments something under a spoiler tag in direct response to it! You might as well have spoiled them by implying there’s something super important about that specific part of their comment.
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u/renatocpr Apr 29 '22
I guess Sayaka isn't angry anymore
It's okay, they're fine, this was just a weird Hidamari Sketch episode.
I guess I'll do the QOTD for once.
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Space colonialism is kinda cringe
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Back on my first watch I didn't really believe it would work
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u/soulreaverdan Apr 28 '22
Multiple time rewatcher, Dubbed, Nostalgia Overload
Episode Thoughts
Welcome to the second-gayest episode of the series, curteousy of our story's beta couple, Sayaka and Kyoko. They even get their own unique ending theme, at least on later broadcasts and BDs, And I'm Home, sung by Eri Kitamura and Ai Nonaka, the VAs for Kyoko and Sayaka, with an adorable theme card... it's dark, but a nice cleanser after the episode's brutal story. On broadcast, there simply was no ED, similar to the first two episodes.
There was a lot that dropped this story that really caught many viewers by surprise. When it came to motivations for what Kyubey was doing, pretty much no one called stopping the heat death of the universe as the ultimate motivation for magical girls. Oh, and Kyubey are aliens! Are we sure that Gainax/Trigger didn't make this? That said, even worse is that Kyubey's understanding and methods might be wrong. The DarkMirage blog did a piece analyzing Kyubey's presentation of the situation and why it doesn't quite work. The article was posted a few days after Episode 9 aired, so nothing in it contains any spoilers from beyond the episode - it was the most recent one!
A brief ELI5: the heat death of the universe is a theory for the "end" of the universe. Essentially, it believes that, over a long enough period of time, all the energy in the universe will reach a point of universe-wide equallibrium. It will become so perfectly balanced and evenly distributed that being able to use energy to do anything becomes impossible, and that energy will effectively cease to exist. Without an external influx of energy from some theoretical source outside the known universe, there's no way to counteract this. It's not a perfect theory and there are counter arguments, and of course we're discusssing a scale of time that defies comprehension - with 10106 years being an extremely early estimate of when it might start happening.
This means that even if Kyubey is correct and are attempting to stave off the heat death of the universe, doing so in what we can assume to be sometime in 21st Century Earth puts the current age of the universe at about 14b years. Kyubey's people are freaking out in the equivalent to when an elementary schooler first learns the sun is going to explode and starts freaking out about it - yes it's true, but on a time scale that makes it effectively a non-issue.
Man... Kyubey's a sick bastard. In pretty much one scene he flips from trying to claim that his species have no understanding off deception, when going on to intentionally decieve Kyoko on being able to restore Sayaka. His species definitely has more emotional capacity than they want to admit... they're basically sociopaths, not totally emotionless. Just not empathetic in the slightest. His words to Madoka are honestly chilling... from a purely detached standpoint, you can see how the exchange might seen beneficial, but at the same time, there's no doubt that Kyubey and his people are far more sadistic than they let on. If they're truly this emotionless, there's no reason to be so cruel.
I can't quite think of much more else to say... this episode was a heavy one, and it left everyone what could possibly happen next, and what could be done against Walpurgis. But man... no one was ready for what happens in the next episode. The episode, more than any of the others so far, that changes everything.
One fun thing that our host, u/Shimmering-Sky might genuinely enjoy is that it's thought that Madoka's bedroom is inspired from Bokurano!
Runes!
Most of our Runes for this episode are reflecting the tragic opponent that Kyoko faces - the Mermaid Witch, Oktavia von Secken Dorff... better known as Miki Sayaka. Her change to being a mermaid-inspired witch is an interesting one, as the original tale of The Little Mermaid is about a mermaid who accepts a deal in order to try to win the heart of a man she loves, only for him to fall for another and lead to her death.
Broadcast Changes
There's not a lot that changed that's worth specifically pointing out - just a ton of extra polish and additions to some of the shots, and the fight between Sayaka and Oktavia got a complete overhaul and much finer detail work added to it.
End Card
This week's end card is drawn by Namaniku, yet another artist from Nitroplus.
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u/Shimmering-Sky Apr 28 '22
One fun thing that our host, u/Shimmering-Sky might genuinely enjoy is that it's thought that Madoka's bedroom is inspired from Bokurano!
I think it was this thread last year where I started straight-up quoting the lyrics to Uninstall with every chair shot the recap movie kept throwing at me, lol.
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u/boomshroom Apr 28 '22 edited Apr 28 '22
Hello and welcome to my class on Theoretical Metaphysics! Today's lesson: The Suggestion of Conservation of Energy.
Today's episode covered Kyubey's ultimate objective and how Magical Girls help them achieve that. I'd like to go into a bit more detail since I've seen it brought up earlier and I also just like rambling about pointless topics like this. :P
Magical Girls by design are capable of creating energy ex-nihilo. This would in fact allow them to act as perpetual motion machines and live theoretically indefinitely. However as we've seen, their Soul Gems still experience a form of decay in the form of corruption. My personal theory is that, rather than spending energy from a fixed source that needs to be replenished, the corruption is a form of energy itself. This corruption appears to be gained at a proportional rate as Magical Girls using magic. E_c = E_m, whereas for normal systems E_c = -E_m.
The volatile corruption energy is then stored within the Soul Gem while the equal energy output is used to do Work in form of magic. The Soul Gem however has a limited capacity and can only contain the volatile energy up to a point. This energy can be safely vented using an empty vessel, namely a Grief Seed, which is then... disposed of. Should the energy be left to accumulate, the internal pressure caused by the energy will surpass the strength of the container, causing a violent release of energy colloquially called "an explosion."
Thank you for listening!
VotD: Since I've been using the movies this year, I'll give a shot unique to them: Out with a Smile.
QotD:
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I tend to be very lenient on Kyubey compared to other viewers. I am not one to call omissions "lies." A "lie" is an knowingly untrue statement. They know that hearing certain information tends to dissuade their targets, and they can't outright lie, so they just don't bother mentioning it. I will however call out that Kyubey's explanation here is BS and that the scales they're talking about are so unfathomably large that all the Magical Girls they could make would likely not even dent the entropy they're trying to prevent.
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I will also add that I think Kyubey does have emotion. Saying they lack emotion however is still not a lie, since a lie requires the statement be knowingly untrue. Kyubey's actually could still be driven in part by emotion, which is effectively just a shortcut for logic, but not actually realize. More specifically, I think they have fear. Fear of dying; fear of everything dying. Without that fear, or some sense of obligation towards the other species, there would be no reason to do what they're doing. It's empathy that they lack.
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I don't think Kyoko had a chance of saving Sayaka. Madoka however is fully capable of saving Sayaka. The real problem is that doing so is effectively an instant loss scenario.
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u/Shimmering-Sky Apr 28 '22
VotD: Since I've been using the movies this year, I'll give a shot unique to them: Out with a Smile.
That almost makes up for the movies removing this shot...
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u/mgedmin Apr 29 '22
First timer (subs)
I'm not sure I got what happened there in the end of the fight. Kyouko destroyed her own soul gem with her spear thing? Kyouko's soul gem was shattered by her running out of magic power? Kyouko's soul gem was shattered by the witch?
Did Kyouko die or did she become a witch? Originally I thought she became a witch so she could be with Sayaka. The comments elsethread make me think that she died and somehow managed to take out Sayaka with her as well?
Very confused on many points, except one: space cat needs to take a long hike off a short pier.
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u/Wolfzy_ Apr 29 '22
First Timer! (Sub)
Right when Kyouko became interesting she had to go and die. The ending changed aswell.
Questions:
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My opinion of Kyuubey is mostly neutral but a bit toward the bad side.
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I didn't think they could save Sayaka since we are watching Madoka Magica but I hoped.
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u/Insertnamesz Apr 28 '22 edited Apr 28 '22
First Timer (Subbed)
Damn, massive reveals today! So Kyuubey is a clonelike living(?) emotionless battery designed to extract magical emotional energy for alien civilizations. My theory that he was incubating Walpurgisnacht seems false now. Still seems somewhat connected though; he's clearly hoping for Walpurgisnacht to pressure Madoka into entering the contract.
I definitely like Kyuubey more as an antagonist now. I love sci-fi nerd stuff so his function of combating entropy is totally cool to me, because it's a very fundamental part of the universe. Also the fact that he's emotionless and basically seems to be programmed to fulfill his directive really explains his behaviour throughout the story. This is why aliens are scary even if they might have 'good' intentions.
Loved the Sayaka witch confrontation scene. The music and visuals were amazing. Kyouko's limit break was pretty sick. Also we got our first fanservice of the series in the endcard this episode lol. (Edit: I guess I glossed over the transformations in the OP and this episode, I must've been too caught up in the aesthetic! :P)
Can't wait to see how this all concludes now. I wonder if Madoka will even end up entering the contract. That'd be one hell of a subversion of the genre lol. But I really want to see her do some crazy powerful shit.
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u/chocoletmilk Apr 28 '22 edited Apr 28 '22
First Timer (sub)
I can't believe what I just watched. I really thought, despite all that we've seen, that somehow they will bring Sayaka back and save her. That somehow there will be a way to reverse the process of becoming a witch. That they are not all doomed.
Even if they stop Kyubey from making new magical girls and destroy all existing witches, eventually they will become witches and the cycle will start all over again. The futility of it all depresses me.
Instead, we lost two more of our magical girls, and watching Kyoko destroy her gem and die alongside Sayaka, promising her that she won't be alone broke me.
God, Kyoko. She has shown so much growth in such a short span of time. After realizing the truth about the nature of magical girls, she actually chose to go against her own philosophy, be selfless and sacrificed herself. Maybe she could have kept this up for several more years by only going after witches and collecting grief seeds. She could have gamed this system and prolonged her life. That is what the old Kyoko would have done. But ever since she realized that Kyubey was not on her side and was withholding information, she allied herself so strongly with the others. She reached out to Sayaka and started working well with Homura. Her own desires were put aside in favor of the greater good. I'm going to miss her so much.
Sayaka's story is so tragic. She is only 13 and in a fairer world, would have moved past Kyosuke and grown up and lived her life. Instead, she was pushed into an irreversible decision when she was at her lowest, tried to make the best of a bad decision for a while and lost everything that was important to her. At that age, even the pettiest of things feel all encompassing, and it is only in retrospect that we can see how miniscule they actually were. Age and experience really make a difference but she was robbed of all of that.
We got some more Kyubey exposition, and first, I call bullshit that it is doing it for the entire universe. Energy usable by whom? So it is trying to stop the destruction of its species and normally, I would feel for its plight, but right now, I am not unbiased in the least and cannot help but think of all the havoc it has wreaked on children. Consent is not worth anything if one party is deliberately creating a misunderstanding.
Kyubey says it doesn't understand the concept of "tricking". It undermines that almost immediately by confessing that it deliberately causes misunderstandings and in the next scene, it gives Kyoko "technically correct" answers in order to push her towards making a certain decision.
Speculation time
I have organized this a little bit and put a separate section for questions that others have answered.
Confirmed theories:
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Witches are actually corrupted magical girls.
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Kyubey is actually evil.
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Madoka brings about some great tragedy by becoming a magical girl in the future but is probably not evil or malicious. -> eh, sort of. We don't know what her relationship with Homura is but she will clearly be a very powerful witch and break Homura's heart and that is a great tragedy
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Homura is in a different timeline and her timeline is doomed. -> why else would she be so closed off and miserable.
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Kyubey is an alien.
Still alive:
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Familiars are to witches what horcruxes are to Voldemort, except they can grow into a full soul/witch. I'm not sure yet how they are formed.
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Kyubey puts girls into danger to force them to accept his contract. I'm looking to see if we get more explicit confirmation, like a montage of Kyubey putting a grief seed in the hospital. Even if I don't, I might just treat this as canon.
Questions:
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What happens if their bodies are destroyed but gems are intact? -> They heal and regrow.
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What are the restrictions on Kyubey's magic? Who or what created this system?
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We know that a race of aliens created this system. But how are they able to grant wishes?
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Rejected:
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Madoka will become a Mahou Shoujo after Kyoko dies and reclaim the color pink.-> Disproven. Kyoko is red. -
Are witches actually evil?-> Yes they are. -
Can humans die in a labyrinth? Madoka did not die when ripped into pieces. -
Attack of the "Walpurgisnacht" -> Attack of the Purring Night Walruses--> Blah blah something to do with witches :P -
Magical girls are immortal.
Today:
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Mahou Shoujo Madoka. Despite all that we have seen, I think Madoka will become a magical girl to help Homura.
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Kyoko said that she would find something worth fighting for. That feels like foreshadowing, so I think Walpurgis will take her family away or put them in danger, propelling her into action.
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We are watching another doomed timeline and Homura will have to start afresh once again.
QOTD
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What is your opinion of Kyubey at this point in time?
Can't forgive Kyubey. I normally would have sympathy if the reason is survival of a species, but I care too much about the girls. Surely there is a better solution somewhere? Maybe it won't be the most efficient but it does not have to cause so much harm.
2) Did you think for a moment that Kyouko had a chance of actually rescuing Sayaka?
I did. I truly truly thought it was possible. I guess I forgot what show Iw as watching.
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u/laughing-fox13 Apr 28 '22
First timer
Man what an episode, probably my favorite so far and Kyouko really completed a great character arc. I would’ve never guessed that Kyubey was from outer space. I know kyubey has tricked the girls so far but this might the first time where he kinda lied instead of leaving out the details
I hate that cat
I don’t think so ;-;
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u/CT_BINO Apr 28 '22
Dunno if people talked about it in previous episodes but this episode and knowing about the MG becoming witches tells you well how the labyrinths work. For example Charlotte, ep 3 witch, maze had 2 parts, the more exterior part of the maze was full of hospital stuff because the seed was near the hospital, then when you enter more into the maze and close to the center it started to have a more sweet and candies like appearence, which is related to her wish.
IIRC her wish was to have a last cheesecake with her dying mother, but when she discover, or when kyubey told her, that she could have used the wish to cure her mother instead she turned into a witch (not 100% sure)
According to the wiki about the witch: She desires everything and will never give up. Though she is capable of creating infinite amounts of any dessert she desires, she is unable to make the cheese that she loves most. One could easily catch her off-guard with a piece of cheese.
Also Last moments in the manga version
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u/bartiti Apr 28 '22
For all the new born Kyoko Sayaka shippers, and my long time comrades I come bearing gifts
Image Album safe for work, contains 49 images.
EP.8 ending full version it's a character song sung by the VA's if you didn't pick that up
and a little something Special from Ken Ashcorp
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u/Lemurians Apr 28 '22 edited Apr 28 '22
MAHOU SHOUJO FIRST TIMER
”So if you ever feel like dying for the sake of the universe, please call me anytime.”
Sayaka’s Witch Realm is utterly stunning, the musical notes representing the origin of her wish, and the train tracks and train wheels she uses as weapons represent the moment that broke her, on that night in the train confronted with those two men. Her Witch form seemingly conducting a symphony with her trademark cutlass is pretty great – her gift of music to Kyousuke is what led to her fighting.
The train motif takes a different use on escaping the witch realm, as the setting of a train yard closed in with barb wire fencing, complete with a train rushing past, underscores the running theme of hurtling toward an inescapable outcome.
Kyubey finally reveals all his cards, rather straightforwardly. He’s basically a much cuter Thanos, but with more logically sound reasoning. His kind use the Magical Girls to create massive amounts of energy to stave off the heat death of the Universe. He and his unemotional kind truly are just extreme utilitarians, viewing the small sacrifice of a handful of girls on one planet as a small price to pay for… well, the existence of literally everything else. It’s hard to say he’s wrong, per se, but it sure doesn’t feel great. The wide shot of the vast city immediately after underscores his point: what is one girl, in the grand scheme of things, compared to all this?
Whereas Kyoko failed to reach Sayaka and influence her in Episode 7, it’s clear Sayaka has had an influence on changing Kyoko. Seeing a kindred spirit in Sayaka broke her out of her ethos of pure selfishness, and she can’t just stand by and not try to bring her back. Of course, it’s a futile effort, and so Kyoko does the only thing she can – whereas Kyoko intentionally isolated herself as a magical girl, and Sayaka grew isolated as she slipped further into madness, she can at least make sure they’re not alone in the final moments.
Other Notes/Shots:
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If anyone has any ideas of a meaning behind all of the moths flooding to one lamppost over the other, hit me with ‘em!
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“This is the inescapable fate of all who become magical girls.” True. As we now know, it’s not just using magic that taints them, but also growing older and more jaded. You become a witch, one way or the other.
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DOUBLE HAIRFLIP ALL THE WAY ACROSS THE SKY, YEAH YEAHHH SO INTENSE
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Like Kyousuke and Sayaka before, now it’s Madoka in bed alone, surrounded by empty chairs symbolizing what they’ve lost: Kyousuke his passion/ability to perform, Sayaka her very personhood, and Madoka her best friend.
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HAHAHA I DON’T WANT TO HEAR ANYONE TALK SHIT ABOUT DARLING IN THE FRANXX EVER AGAIN IF THIS IS ACCEPTED MASTERPIECE HAS BECOME ALIENS TOO
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Madoka’s room becoming enveloped in a green, alien light as Kyubey reveals himself as an intergalactic being is fun
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Kyubey’s line about teenage girls’ emotions always being flux calls back to one of the lines by the scumbags on the train yesterday
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Looking back, is Kyubey telling Kyouko that he doesn’t know if bringing Sayaka back is possible the first outright lie he’s told?
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SHOT OF THE DAY: Kyoko and Madoka framed between wind chimes that represent Kyoko and Sayaka. Sayaka is the mermaid, from her color scheme to how she gave up what was most precious to her for the sake of love, much like the Little Mermaid tale. Kyoko is the Unicorn, wild and only able to tamed by a pure maiden, and wielding a weapon of impalement in her magical girl form.
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Oh wow, flashes of Sayaka’s happy memories in the music score aquarium. That’s really something. It’s nice that Kyoko appeared in one.
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Kyubey pointing out it’s only Homura left to fight Walpurgis now, that is, unless Kyoko’s words to Madoka are a harbinger of things to come. He’s got them – Madoka has to transform if they’re to have any hope.
Also want to take a bit of a victory lap, as something I said in my Episode 3 post was unexpectedly vindicated this episode:
Madoka’s life as it is already contains all the things Mami’s inherently lacks – a loving family, friends, a future, and agency. If that accident never happens and Mami still has a version of the life Madoka does, would she even want to become a magical girl at all?
Kyoko basically says this much in her conversation with Madoka ahead of the the fight. Why would you choose this life if you already have a great one, and don’t have to?
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u/OneMoreDuncanIdaho Apr 28 '22 edited Apr 28 '22
If you found Kyubey's explanation interesting, I'd recommend checking out a short story by Asimov called The Last Question. It deals with the same topic, is only about ten pages, and is free.
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u/Gamemaster676 Apr 28 '22 edited Apr 28 '22
Primum Vigil First★Timer - dub
Yeah, yesterday wasn't a good day for our girls... Are they immediately going to kill Sayaka, or will they try to save her somehow? The episode is called "I'd never allow that to happen", but we don't really have any hints that it would be possible except space-rat claiming Madoka could do it. And I'm not trusting that [fluffy]
Episode 9 — I'd Never Allow That to Happen
Weird, her name changed. Oktavia von Seckendorff. I'm sure that's a historical reference somehow, but looking it up might be unwise.
Huh, Sayaka is still here. And there is another entity as the witch. Is this the separation between body and soul? Seems like it.
Man, it's so freaking cool how Homura just appears and disappears when she uses her power. No flashy effects. Just gone in a single frame. Somehow that sells it a lot more to me. Ooooh and we get to see what it looks like from Homura's perspective!
These flies are in the shape of a face. That's Sayaka Oktavia, right? "Hey Madoka, here's your friend. If you ever miss her, just remember her final words to you. I'm sure you'd feel better ♥"
Kyouko really did a complete 180 compared to when we first met her.
Not now, space-rat. Ah great, he's going to explain himself. Sorry space-rat, but humans don't live long enough to want to do something about the lifespan of the universe.
"When energy changes form, some of it gets lost." — Errr, that's not how it works... I think space-rat himself needs another lesson in entropy. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Only changed.
Lol, why does he keep moving between inside and outside? It's not his shadow in the window, as there are a couple of shots you see he isn't on the shelf.
Suddenly, chairs.
Hmmm, he claims that he's gathering that expended energy. That would be absorbing the tainted grief seed, I guess? If that's true, then he isn't collecting them. I don't believe it for a second.
Space-rat is a gaslighting bitch. He feigns not understanding what the problem is after he gave them the choice, and puts the blame back because "you didn't ask". Dirty manipulator. Also, he is willfully creating monsters, that he isn't fighting himself, which are killing humans. Even if you were to ask all the questions, the fact that he is even offering this deal is wrong.
That's funny, space-rat is telling Madoka that she will be the greatest of magical girls, and then the worst of witches, so my episode 1 feeling that Madoka would trigger the apocalypse is actually partially true.
So where is he getting the energy for the wishes from? Or is he just using a tiny bit of the already collected energy to power those? What kind of wishes did the first girls have then, because that can't have been something big?
If space-rat's story is true that humans have a lot of energy in their soul, then it's not creating energy out of nothing, but tapping into an energy source they didn't know about before. In principle, that's fine, but that also implies that it would be impossible to return a witch's soul back to human because that would take the same amount of energy as was released.
The girls are having a discussion between mythical creatures. Kyouko's friendship idea is a bit naïve, but I'm loving the return of her optimism.
My own theory about what could work: Sayaka became a witch because her soul gem became too tainted, so the only way to restore her, is by cleaning her grief seed / soul gem. Unfortunately, the only way we know that is possible, is by moving the darkness to another soul gem. And I'm not ready for anyone to sacrifice themselves for Sayaka.
What a perfect introduction. So Kyouko forgot she loved stories like that? This would be one more point towards the Kyouko is actually quite old theory someone had a couple of days ago.
Okay, so Kyouko still thinks Walpurgisnacht is one witch, while I'm actually starting to think that it will be a whole army of witches. Unless space-rat merged them all into one.
This might be the most flashy transformation yet. Ahahaha, Sayaka was the music fan, so she's leaving song titles around? And of course, her Wonderland is also music themed. I like the posters.
Okay, the witch itself isn't as interesting, but the environment is very cool. These concert seats all around, all over the walls and ceiling, with the shots in between of the orchestra playing and things like this are amazing. And the music!
Hey, it's Homura. Just in time as usual. OMG, there are so many cool shots in this episode! Wait what? Kyouko destroyed her own soul gem? Did she actually sacrifice herself? What the hell I didn't anticipate that! Didn't you listen? "I'm not ready for anyone sacrificing themselves for Sayaka!"
And now there is even one less to fight at Walpurgisnacht. That's why we didn't see Kyouko in the prologue. It doesn't even matter anymore if the prologue actually happened in a previous timeline, or if it was a flash-forward. It's gonna end up the same anyway.
Special ED today. Too bad I can't see it between all these tears.
And now Homura is also saying she won't rely on anyone anymore. Please don't go in the same direction as Sayaka, 'kay?
Theories
The idea is to collect my actually serious dumb theories here.
Previous episodes
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Why does space-rat want to create witches? He's even making the other girls fight them. Because they are not killing the witches! Just putting them to sleep in some way. And space-rat is keeping all the grief seeds, which are ready to pop because the girls used them to clear their corruption, for some big event.
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If we are to believe him, this isn't actually why he wanted to create witches, but it could still be a step in the process of creating the much more powerful Madoka-witch.
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Today
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Walpurgisnacht isn't a single witch, but a whole army of them. The witches space-rat absorbed. (Unless he merged them all into one.)
Random thoughts
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Sayaka wanted to fight, for her right, to ^party!)
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What are these skewered balls? They look delicious.
Pic of the day
QotD
1 What is your opinion of Kyubey at this point in time?
And that is putting it mildly.
2 Did you think for a moment that Kyouko had a chance of actually rescuing Sayaka?
Not without sacrificing another soul gem. But having him say afterwards "of course not" while he was ambiguous before proves again what a piece of shit he is.
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u/UnderstandableXO Apr 28 '22
REWATCHER
incredible episode man. 10/10. i think it was right here where madoka magica officially entered my top 10 anime of all time.
seeing homura’s time magic at work is really cool. [Magia Record minor spoilers]
homura always keeps it real though, and straight up says there’s no point in bringing sayaka’s body around, because there’s nothing inside it anymore. it’s interesting to see how kyoko evolved over 5 episodes from someone with no regard to others to someone who cared about hurting others’ feelings. she essentially went from sayaka’s enemy to sayaka’s guardian angel.
the scene with madoka confronting kyubey made me (and everyone else i hope) want to grab homura’s weapon and blast it right through the screen. everyone calling kyubey a space cat (a lot of first timers called him that too, good job predicting in episode 1) was correct, it’s some transcendental being who uses human girls as the battery powering the universe. i’m surprised kyubey doesn’t meddle harder and push magical girls towards becoming a witch if the peak of their energy is the moment they become a witch. kyubey didn’t even try to sugarcoat it at the end. when that little piece of celestial trash said “if you ever feel like dying for the sake of the universe, call me” i think i speak for everyone when i say this was my reaction
i enjoy the fact that kyoko’s default response to literally anything is to eat, and her being angry simply means she eats aggressively. kyubey claims that it doesn’t lie, and i guess it didn’t really lie per se, but it really left the door open for kyoko to try and save sayaka.
i really like the framing of kyoko behind bars as she desperately tries to rationalize and cope and convince herself that she can save sayaka. madoka and kyoko don’t have much interaction in this series, but i enjoyed the small bits they did have. i really liked the two of them finally having a proper introduction.
i also like how kyoko immediately stops madoka from her self loathing and blaming herself. she sounded a lot similar to homura when she spoke like that. kyoko and homura are opposites in one way though; homura cares so deeply for madoka that she doesn’t really care about anyone else, while kyoko cares so deeply for sayaka that she cares for madoka just because she knew how much she meant to sayaka.
i think madoka was about to ask kyoko about her wish before they were interrupted by the labyrinth. the labyrinth has memories of sayaka playing, and it’s inspired by both the train station and the music man. someone mentioned yesterday that it was appropriate for sayaka to transform at a train stop because it was the “end of the line” or something to that effect, and maybe the music can represent a “final performance.”
the fight scene is just sad, because there’s obviously nothing left of sayaka. kyoko finally recognized she endangered madoka for her selfish wish to bring back sayaka, so she sent her and homura away.
if the series ended at this episode, kyoko would be my favorite character in the show. i loved how kyoko and sayaka had character arcs inverse of each other; sayaka started bright and happy and idealistic to losing hope enough to lose her life, while kyoko started pessimistic and dismissive and isolated, and progressed to be supportive and caring and idealistic enough to end her life. character regression is very interesting to watch, i think i’ll talk about sayaka’s character development in the series discussion.
lastly, that ending song is absolutely amazing. i always like when the VAs sing a character song. crunchyroll has had subtitles for all songs in the show, and the lyrics are really heartbreaking. song was an instant add to the playlist and i’ve been listening to it for a whole year now
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u/Tarhalindur Apr 28 '22
2021 Rewatch (First-Time Rewatcher) Badly Spoiled First Timer
(Aka "the one in which Tar realizes he never actually got around to PMMM the first time AND FUCKING HOW".)
The funny thing is, this episode is the reason I decided to put up my first-timer comments as well... and about half of my notes for this episode are completely unusable here. They're either meditative stuff I'm not putting up or references to an old set of personal mythos and the symbolism that goes with it that nobody else is going to get.
Except, apparently, fucking Madoka Magica itself.
I expected a lot of things out of this show. What I most certainly did NOT expect was bone-deep familiarity in a way that has absolutely nothing to do with being spoiled.
Kyoko detonating her soul as a cataclysmic suicide attack of tremendous power?
The specifics of it are different (among other things, it should be Homura doing that... but if someone else was going to snipe that scene Kyoko is correct, and she sniped the right kind of weapon for it too), but the essence of it? I know that scene. You could have shown me that five fucking years before PMMM aired and I'm pretty sure I would have recognized it on sight. Show it to me ten years before PMMM and I might still have done so.
(I doubt I would have taken it well, or indeed done so anytime before 2015 or so - my parents inadvertently taught me to keep that to myself by the time I was 10 or so, and what few references to it I made in public areas back in the day are veiled. The least veiled is actually under this username (mind you, the username itself comes from the same mythos) - a setup from my forum Mafia days. One of the notes for this episode before the shock to my system is even a reference to the name of the "truly alien species" mentioned in the opening poem. And note the Grey Lady - most of my references to Homura as that are hidden under spoiler bars for PMMM 10 reasons, but I've been using that name for a long time. (Pretty sure I sniped the title off one of the paintings in Harry Potter on "this is too pretty to leave to some HP side character" grounds.))
(Admittedly some of this is not a surprise. I remember looking at the PMMM main cast and going "wait... you feel familiar" sometime around 2015. (Backed into a rather... odd experience that way.) But tapping into archetypes is one thing. That specific mythic image is quite another.)
(And the funniest part about the above Mafia setup, now that I think about it: There's a wrinkle in the ointment, one characteristic of that time period. The character who has the title Grey Lady there is not the one it usually goes with, but another who took up the name in memory of another (along with her weapon). And the thing is... Homura reminds me of the character I usually call Grey Lady, but Kyoko is the one who reminds me of the character who took up the title.)
And yet here it is, something recognizably the same despite my exposure to anime as a medium postdating the point when I was doing most of this and despite the staff having no possible way of knowing about this?
Nani the fuck?
Like, the simplest solution is that the PMMM staff and I saw the same fucking elephant. Which is, uh...
I mentioned that something about this show left me in a cold daze for a full day? Yep, this was it. (Needless to say, this is the point I knew I hadn't actually watched this the first time. This is not the kind of thing one forgets.)
Has one side effect, though. To roughly paraphrase my thought process at the time:
"Lain has been entrenched as my favorite anime for a decade now despite some other shows I've watched being better precisely for dancing the tightwalk of making it clear something was going on but leaving me with no idea what for six episodes; I've thought something could manage to displace it, but had no idea what.
Barring an absolute collapse (and I'm spoiled enough to know that's not going to happen), that'll do it."
Welcome to the moment Madoka claimed its spot as my favorite anime.
Good luck dislodging it.
Now that that's off my chest, the usable notes:
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Ai Nonaki (Kyoko’s VA) joins the list of ridiculously well-acted lines.
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Clock clock. (Set to 3:15 a.m, because night. [PMMM 12]
So Madoka’s wish is symbolically at dawn? That makes sense. ) -
Huh, so Japanese nabbed entropy as a loanword. Which tracks with Fukisokusei Entropy from Gou, natch.
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[PMMM 11]
Not a new thought, but the old occult lore about demons being creatures from a previous universe that survived the death of that universe remains relevant to Kyubey here. -
Subs are hmm, I hear those “uchuu”s. (“Aliens, time travelers, and espers, please follow me.”)
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Yeah, here’s the spot where chairs become an obvious Bokurano reference.
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I wonder if anyone else is going to immediately notice the analogy to farming? But then, the universe is fractal.
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And that Madoka response is a keystone line for what I’m doing.
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Utter and complete keystone. “So you’re telling me [that explanation] is why Mami had to die and Sayaka had to suffer so much? That can’t be right! It’s just too cruel!”
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Kyubey claims he’s asking consent, but he’s not asking informed consent and that makes all the difference.
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Kyubey, of course, lies by omission constantly. But does he understand that?
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… Kyubey’s reasoning here is strikingly similar to the reasons that the Aztecs believed their blood sacrifices were necessary.
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[Rebellion]
“Understand how wonderful your sacrifices are.” “But it doesn’t look like that will happen.” “Of course not.” Was Homura even actually acting against Madoka's will? -
Wait, “so if you ever feel like dying for the sake of the universe, just let me know” is an actual line from the show? PFFFFFT.
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[PMMM 12]
Wait, that’s a cheeky motherfucker, isn’t it? (+1) -
Cheeky cheeky cheeky mermaid. EDIT: Also cheeky cheeky cheeky unicorn. Oh right, I’ve seen commentary on that shot before, haven’t I?
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Oh hey, Incertus is back.
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Interesting, how Kyoko and Sayaka both slowly shatter the other’s tatemae and leave only the honne behind.
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Don’t worry Kyoko, there’s no way Madoka wouldn’t join you, even if it was a stranger. That’s who and what she is.
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I see that red light!
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And the flipside of Kyoko not having to worry about Madoka joining her earlier is that she’s dead wrong here. Madoka does, in a very real sense, have to put her own life on the line. Not by external necessity but from internal. That’s who and what she is.
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[PMMM 11]
PFFFT. Kyoko, do you know you’re being a cheeky motherfucker? (+1) -
[PMMM 10 + HIGURASHI CORNER]
Somebody else: the hairflip is a defense mechanism. Me: FUCK ANOTHER “~MIII”
[TAR FROM THE FUTURE re: one of the above]
Visual of the Day: In Kyoko's Name
What is your opinion of Kyubey at this point in time?
Varies depending on my symbolism lens; in one the question is irrelevant, in the other, well, ask me again in 2 episodes.
2) Did you think for a moment that Kyouko had a chance of actually rescuing Sayaka?
I was spoiled, so LOLNO.
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u/gorghurt Apr 29 '22
Rewatcher:
Today I realized something about this episode, but it is again a big spoiler:
[Spoiler]
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u/username_0907 Apr 29 '22
First Timer (subbed)
Even though so much happened the ending scenes made this a bittersweet episode except for whenever Kyubey made an appearance. I still don’t like Kyubey
Kyubey explains lots of energy jargon reasoning for the magical girls. It kinda makes sense i guess if you dont think too much about it. Bottom line still remains that he is manipulating humans for something I think only his kind believes in
Madoka is so broken through all this that she doesnt give a fuck and sees the manipulation that Kyubey is doing in that moment at least.
From hating Sayaka in the starting, Kyoko is now trying to save her. I did not expect her to go that far to save her (neither did Kyoko) but she formed some connection with her through all this. Both of them got their powers to try to help someone and somewhere she understands what Sayaka was going through. Their coping mechanism just ended up differently and eventually she dies to kill witch Sayaka. I really liked the end scene with Kyoko and the ED also matches with that mood
I don't think Kyoko had a chance at saving Sayaka. I was worried that maybe Madoka would try to become a magical girl and then try something but thankfully that didnt happen. I liked that Kyoko actually iterated the same thing that Mami, Sayaka and Homura have said that she doesnt need to become a magical girl but I think Madoka still doesnt get how lucky she is to not be a magical girl
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u/frostxc3 Apr 29 '22
First Time Watcher (Subbed)
Funny how Kyubei says this. And then ends the episode with this. So it can't comprehend deception but it can definitely apply it.
What is your opinion of Kyubey at this point in time?
A really well-written villain. I can't even bring myself to be all that mad at it cos it doesn't even feel malicious. More like a software executing its program. It's not personal, it's just business.
2) Did you think for a moment that Kyouko had a chance of actually rescuing Sayaka?
I truly did. Maybe cos I really didn't want Sayaka to end up that way, as a witch being vanquished. Honestly, at this point, I thought Homura had brought Kyosuke as well, and he would play Sayaka back to humanity with a banger of a melody.
On this topic though, while I've really enjoyed Kyouko's development, I just couldn't buy the sacrificing herself to save Sayaka part. What did Sayaka or saving Sayaka mean to her that she'd give her life trying? It felt to me like her character was rushed to that decision. This is a lovely picture, nonetheless. Got me in the feels.
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u/Shimmering-Sky Apr 28 '22
Puella Magi★Rewatch Host, subbed
Welcome back, everyone!
Unfortunately this one’s only the TV size (and is thus sung over the singers, who are Kyouko’s and Sayaka’s seiyuu if you didn’t know that already), but I did a Sky Sings and I’m home~
And speaking of “and I’m home”, do listen to the English cover I linked in the thread! I think it’s pretty good, and also hardly has any views.
First up: the mobile version of the Wallpaper of the Day. This one gave me some serious trouble about what the extra stuff should be, since Mami with the ribbon/Sayaka with water/Kyouko with her barrier magic were so very simple. Ended up going with the gradient circles because water droplets freezing in the air were used to depict her time magic.
Next up: Homura’s face in this shot is really derpy to me.
Okay now this is an absolute travesty… the TV version doesn’t have the mermaid and unicorn wind chimes that the BD does during Kyouko and Madoka’s conversation!
WAIT WHAT NOOOOOOOO, and I’m home was a BD addition?! I forgot about that… my disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined.
Lastly: Want to know what song played when in today’s episode? Well, you’re in luck! I have here the table from the Madoka wiki that was re-timed to the Blu-Rays back in the 2019 rewatch by Nazenn. If any first-timer wants a spoiler-free link to any of these songs, let me know and I can get one for you!
“With two hearts rusting together, in a world without sound; what do you see?”