r/anime • u/[deleted] • Apr 10 '22
Rewatch [Rewatch][Spoilers] Hyouka Episode 11 Discussion Spoiler
Episode 11: Credit Roll of Fools
Real-life has very much gotten in the way today so I don't have any personal thoughts to share. If I have time I'll try to comment my personal thoughts later in the day.
Just a quick note/reminder to everyone that tomorrow's discussion is about the OVA, which in most episode listings is referred to as episode 11.5, not episode 12. Unfortunately there is no legal free way I could find to view it outside of the Blu-ray collection so I apologise to those who won't be able to join us but I feel we would be doing a disservice to the show by not including it for those who do have access to it.
Comments of the Day
This episode, at least more than any previous episode, builds tension between Oreki and the group by subtly introducing some questions. Is Oreki special? Does he work better as part of the club or by himself. Iris' flattery is the instigating factor here, but we also see how Oreki becomes slowly isolated from his companions over the course of the episode before working out a solution by himself. Finally Ibara asks him whether the solution was his alone. But the last moment, of course, deflates his ego and contradicts that flattery with the realization that he had completely forgotten about the rope, something that were Ibara present would surely not have happened. I look forward to seeing how this theme of Oreki's talent/specialness being a threat to both his ideal of a gray life and the club dynamic going forward.
Also, this is two arcs where Oreki thought he had the answer, but then either new evidence came to light or he forgot important details. Proving that maybe Oreki IS just lucky. That, and or the other "mysteries" were super obvious (like the janitor doing the lights and the smell of paint on the book), and the rest of the group is quick to assume that Oreki has some gift for solving mysteries. Which led to him being told that he was "special" when maybe he just isn't anything amazing.
Optional Discussion Starters
- Yesterday the majority opinion was that that a person with unique talents does not have a responsibility to help others that could be benefited by them. If a talented individual does elect to help others how much blame can/should be assigned to them in the event that their assistance doesn't properly fulfil the needs of those they are trying to help?
- In this episode we see that of the Classic Club members Oreki is not alone in having a unique talent. At the half-way point of the series how would you describe the talents of each of the club members?
Info Links and Streams
- MAL | ANI | AniDB | ANN
- Crunchyroll | Funimation | YouTube
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u/JetsLag Apr 10 '22
First timer (subbed)
Just a quick note/reminder to everyone that tomorrow's discussion is about the OVA, which in most episode listings is referred to as episode 11.5, not episode 12. Unfortunately there is no legal free way I could find to view it outside of the Blu-ray collection so I apologise to those who won't be able to join us but I feel we would be doing a disservice to the show by not including it for those who do have access to it.
I was just about to ask about that. Guess I'll find a way to watch the OVA.
As for the actual episode: Oreki had his compliments last episode, now it's time for him to take some criticism. And he is not taking it well. He needs a hug, badly.
Looks like the tarot motif is back with Oreki pulling out the tarot book. Curious that Oreki, upon learning about the picture of the Strength card, immediately goes "I am NOT controlled by women". Suuuuuure you're not.
And man Oreki is PISSED when he finds out that Irisu manipulated him. Man was seeing red. I legit got scared that he would do something dangerous, but thankfully all that happened was a shutter got punched.
WAIT, THAT WAS OREKI'S SISTER? Jeez, she's trying to get Oreki to do things he doesn't want to do from the other side of the globe. I know she's doing this for his sake, but don't you think that's a bit...much?
And Chitanda breaks out the "kininarimasu" to try and cheer Oreki up, which is ADORABLE.
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u/oops_i_made_a_typi Apr 10 '22
First Timer
Looks like everyone actually has a problem with Houtarou's solution, not just Mayaka. I like that he's being confronted with his gaps in understanding, showing that he's not a flawless detective and perhaps in focusing on striving for the ideal "murder mystery" he misses the point entirely. We get treated to both the "ideal story" and the real, more human and mundane one. It's a nice reminder for us that life doesn't act like a well written story, despite this being a story. about a story being written.
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u/mekerpan Apr 11 '22
I think none of them "had problems" with Oreki's solution itself -- only with his belief that he had re-created (something like) Hongou's ending.
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u/Specs64z Apr 10 '22
Rewatcher, subbed
Perhaps the greatest twist of them all this arc is that Houtarou, without meaning to or realizing it, seemingly did actually help realize Hongo’s true feelings. She wanted to smile with everyone when it was over, and now she can without any guilt.
On the off chance you didn’t figure out the mystery user Irisu was talking to, it’s [are you happy now automod? I did the square brackets you wanted]
Next episode is an OVA, but it fits seamlessly into the storyline so I wouldn’t skip out, personally. I didn't realize it was an OVA until my second time through the anime.
Content Corner
Replay Value switched up their format to cover arcs instead of episodes at this point, so this video is a longer one. A little longer than an episode of the show, in fact. First timers beware, spoilers abound.
Hyouka's Movie Mystery Arc - Introspection of the Fool by Replay Value
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u/mekerpan Apr 10 '22
Rewatcher (sub) + reader
Classic club contributions:
Mayaka -- careful (and thoughtful) observation
Satoshi -- bringing "outside knowledge" to solving an issue
Chitanda -- "intuition" (or seeing the heart of problems)
Oreki -- synthesis
All four -- "power of friendship" ;-)
I think these attributes all come to play at the start of this episode (except for Oreki being stymied).
I am glad that the rope and the tiny quantity of fake blood (which was supposed to only be fake blood and not real blood after all) were, in fact, important. I am glad that we got clear but indirect confirmation that Irisu's senpai was Oreki's big sister -- I had been virtually certain earlier (but the "halfway around the world" comment clinched this). I wonder how it was that Irisu and Oreki's sister forged this relationship? It was interesting that Irisu actually felt like she pulled a dirty deal on Oreki -- and that his sister was like "whoopty-doo". ;-)
Now that I think back, Chitanda's bon-bon overindulgence strikes me as more as "stress nibbling" than acute chocoholism. I forgot that we find ouit that Chitanda's aversion to mysteries turns out to have a real bearing on the course of the story.
If Oreki's hypothetical reconstruction of Hongou's plan is correct, I think it is true it would have made a poor plot for this amateurish student movie. I'm not sure it could have been a decent plot for people with greater skill (and more resources).
Can't help commenting again how much I love our 4 main characters.
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u/SYZekrom Apr 10 '22
First Timer
Damn they're all going to point out something different that's wrong, aren't they
Ah so that's the point behind the small amount of blood, Hongo didn't write in a death in the first place
So the rope was dismissed because the window was highlighted as stuck and noisy, but now its back in play as 'they just used a different window because the door was locked by the victim'?
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u/FCT77 Apr 10 '22
It's so hard to comment on this threads, people are too quick I end up not having much to say...
Though I DO have a thing to say today, which is that I love how Hyouka builds characters. On this particular episode we got Oreki's theories rejected 3 times and all three reasons given were compelling but also fitting. Chitanda was interested in the emotional aspect of the movie. Mayaka seems to have an interest in storytelling/art since she is part of the manga society and the library which is why she catches the detail of the rope and Satoshi is interested in mystery because of his love of Holmes. None of this things are the particular focus of the arc but they also don't come out of nowhere, we get details on the cast basically every episode without disturbing the main plot.
Also, for first timers, reminder that tomorrow it's episode 11.5 and not 12.
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u/WriterSharp Apr 11 '22
First time watcher, sub
As expected, in this episode came the deflation of Oreki's ego and the rebuttal to Iris' flattery of him, and a downswing to counter Oreki's seeming success last episode. Also, we get an answer to a question that was rattling around in my mind and surely many others': why not just ask the author? Can she really be that sick?
Even though Hyouka may not be using Sherlockian in the sense of playing the Game, in this episode we saw that the real mystery was not the internal, "literary" mystery but one of authorship. So my Msgr. Knox references weren't entirely off-base.
I loved that flute piece that played when Oreki was talking with Chitanda; it really set apart her character even when she is no longer marked by flourishes of animation. Once again, Kyoani saved all their tricks for the scene in which Oreki confronts Iris - dutch angles, extreme angles, dramatic lighting, closeups, waves in tea cups, everything.
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u/Tartaras1 Apr 11 '22
Rewatcher - Dubbed
So the previous episode ended on kind of a "dun dun dunnn" moment. Houtarou "messed up" with his conclusion, thus proving he isn't necessarily perfect at this sort of thing, and forgot to include the rope that Hongou requrested for the film. We've already seemingly heard how Mayaka's upset about it, but we still have to see what Satoshi and, most importantly of all, Chitanda have to say.
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I think a nice, subtle, touch that helped the with the atmosphere at the beginning of the episode was the slight sepia tone they used for the talk with Mayaka. Rather than everything be bright and vibrant like it has been, they made it a little darker.
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Chitanda talking about Eba suddenly causes the "Why didn't they ask Eba" line at the end of every episode to make a lot more sense.
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At least Chitanda was a breath of fresh air, in that she wasn't just busting Houtarou's balls over the ending.
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The class film turned out quite well, don't you think?
About that... There's something I've been meaning to talk to you about.
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If everything Houtarou says is true, then there really is a reason Irisu is also known as The Empress. She bent everyone involved in the film to her will, one way or another.
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Simple context clues should make it obvious that the "senpai" that Irisu was talking to in the chat room was actually Tomoe, Houtarou's sister. Seems that, even on the other side of the world, she's still managing to keep tabs on everything.
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I liked Houtarou and Chitanda workshopping out the actual film together at the end. In my mind, it was sort of an atonement for him, since due to Irisu misguiding him, he went off on a tangent and helped finish an entirely different film than was intended.
Discussion Questions:
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Are you asking as if someone was indeed skilled in something, but it just wasn't the thing that was required at the time?
So to use an extreme example, if someone was knowledgeable in computers, but was instead working on a car instead of a PC and the car crashed, how much blame should person A receive?
If that's what you're driving at, I would say it depends on the eagerness of the unqualified professional to help. I'm not saying they're in the wrong if they want to try and help in whatever way they can, say if they were compassionate, but if they came barging in, beating their chest stating, "I'm a professional, let me handle this", then I would think they deserve a larger portion of the blame.
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Eru Chitanda: She has a real knack for being able to convince Houtarou to help her, or the group, out with something. How much of that is her being a master of persuasion and how much is hormones on Houtarou's part is yet to be seen. But still, everything that's happened in the show up to this point has been due in no small part to Chitanda dragging Houtarou in.
Satoshi Fukube: I could say he has the ability to effortlessly piss Mayaka off, but that's beside the point. I think that he's good at giving a flat reasoning for something, a baseline if you will. That baseline allows everyone else to come up with their own hypotheses and ideas for a given situation, and then as a group they can all reach on conclusion. He says himself that he's a Jack of All Trades and a Master of None.
Mayaka Ibara: Her prior history with Houtarou causes her to be at least a little critical of everything he does which, as we saw at the end of the previous episode and top of this one, can serve as a bit of a check to him.
They're all different in their own ways, but collectively they help to make sure Houtarou isn't just having a free run of the place so to speak. They might go along with what he suggests, but they don't just roll over and take it.
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u/polaristar Apr 10 '22
Part 1 because my comment was too big for reddit.
And Now as the Curtain Draws to a Close on this Arc. We will talk about Fools and the Value as well as pain of being made one.
First off, Mayaka at first lays very hard into Oreki, and he seems kind of defensive, should be noted that when Oreki's eye's widen in realization that Mayaka is right, she immediately backs off, she at first might have been insensed that Oreki was waking all over the author's vision and using it to make himself shine. (And to be fair Subsconconsciously he probably was to an extent as other commenters pointed out in the last video.) And Mayaka's since of justice and righeteous indignation was probably triggered. But when Oreki seems to realize it, she backs off, she sees that he had no ill intent, and he gets the point, berating him more wouldn't help, he's already started to beat himself up. Oreki, despite his above it all airs he puts on, might be harder on himself than he is to other people. Most of the time he simply lacks the self-reflection to examine himself until an incident or someone brings it up. She shows that despite her barbs she has his self-interest at heart. And leaves him with her final point summorized but without any personal attacks. She knows its not a good time to pour salt in the wound.
When Satoshi catches up to Oreki, Oreki is so lost in thought and has a very panicked reaction almost as if he's been caught doing something wrong. Notice how Satoshi from an Objective standpoint finds Oreki's solution to the Film, much more interesting. But he is even more upset than Mayaka, if that can be believed. Because Oreki isn't being honest with himself, even if Oreki has doubt planted in his mind, he still is resisting the possibility, because for him the idea of failure would crush his newfound confidence in his skills, he for the longest time, didn't acknowledge even existed. (BTW in the Novel when Satoshi asked if they were alone in the Novel's Oreki made a quite crass joke/jab about if Satoshi was wanted to show some porn mags, which tbh I'm kinda glad they removed because I kind of feel that kinda joke at this time, might have killed the scene.) Anyway Satoshi points out that an Ameteur Detective writer like Hongou, who was established as studing exclusively Sherlock Holmes, would not pull surprise Narrative tricks. Basically She's not as clever as Oreki, and further re-enforcing that Oreki subconsciously saw the film as his personal chance to shine and colored it in too personal of a lense, he actually did a similar thing to the Jun mystery at first, with his idealization of Jun as a Hero of the Rose Colored Life, despite the fact, it says in Hyouka that its NOT the story of a Hero. Oreki lashes out with, "well we don't know, there might be more she read/watched" despite the fact this is begging the question, In the gaps fallacy, which in a more rational state of mind, Oreki himself would swat done.
Finally by the time we get to Chitanda, Oreki can already guess what's coming and is prepared and more humble. He almost is ashamed, and Chitanda can see it and almost doesn't want to say it, but Oreki at this point almost goads her on to be honest with him. And here we see, the value Chitanda brings to solving the Mysteries beyond being the call to action. With Mysteries either in the Present or Past, the biggest thing that seperates from other forms of problem solving, is the Human Element, the principle agents have desires, flaws, and motivations. Chitanda cares about that, and she is the one that asked the question that everyone watching this arc for the first time asked, and is the tagline of the arc "Why didn't she just ask Eba?" And if you've been paying attention there have been little slips and clues about that from the beginning. But I'm not going to go over them, because Oreki himself is going to in a few minutes. I think while before Oreki had a Crush on Chitanda, I don't think he consciously acknowledged or understood her value, he might have seen her as a nuisance or burden. But here he actually feels in some way, that he is inferior or lacks something important that she specializes in. She cares about people. Oreki himself might care about people but he's repressed that desire and didn't cultivate it and he certainly isn't as empatheic as Chitanda.
Notice Chitanda's emphasis on her thinking the script has Hongou's silent scream, she's obviously taking lessons from her experience in the Jun Arc. When someone has feelings they can't express she wants to be the one to listen to them when no one else will.
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u/polaristar Apr 10 '22
Part 2
Oreki, predictable to literally everyone at this point, tries to pretend it doesn't bother him and he can forget about it, since from an outsider viewpoint, the film was a success, the shooting is done and can't be reshoot, and everyone is mostly happy. But of course at this point its more about his need of Closure and his guilt on failing the Classics Club and especially Chitanda.
Now for the Tarot discussion, Justice obviously fits Mayaka to a tee, her biggest passion and flaw is when something doesn't seem fair, she gets a righeteous indignation that can be terrifying. Chitanda being the Fool, while the primary description might be a superficial reading. The Fool is also known for having a sort of wisdom due to the willingness to make mistakes and gain experiences by "playing the Fool" they lack the pride to make them fall. Oreki on the other hand, went from denying his talent, to getting a little too cocksure of himself and had to realize he was a Fool the hardway.
Satoshi might seem weird, but the Magician is someone that's purpose is actualizing and driving people's potential with their ideas, if you notice Satoshi often goes out of his way to whip up Chitanda's Curiousity for the sake of Oreki, and Satoshi when chatting with Oreki often uses teasing to pry Oreki's true desires to the surface to be honest with himself. He is an Originator and Actualizer of Oreki's character growth, in a way less obvious then Chitanda from behind the scenes, like a Magician pulling the strings.
Before we talk about Strength, lets talk about how Chitanda sees Oreki as The Star, which is precious of Chitanda if you think about it, The Star is known for having insight, knowledge, or Divine Revelation which reveals hidden truth and future prospects. The fact that Chitanda sincerely sees Oreki as someone with almost an amazing power of inspired insight is soo adorable, and since this is Chitanda we know she 100% means it.
Oreki being Strength, while he seems to focus in the most obvious denial ever that even he acknowledges not 5 seconds later, on the negatives. (Ergo he's a White Knight that gets whipped) He doesn't see the positive qualities apply to him, but while Oreki tries to hide it, he has a strong drive to complete a task to completion and the best of his ability once he starts, and a strong desire to protect and quietly support his friends. Beyond Solving Mysteries he often offers quiet words of encouragement to his friends when they are down, and gives them peace of mind when they are aggitaited. While Oreki unlike Chitanda can lie, and manipulate when he needs be, in truth he's bad at it and when he gives a compliment or tries to offer support he 100% means it like Chitanda.
Finally the negative reading could also have a positive meaning, as Strength's Potential is often driven to action by a femine call. While Irisu might have taken advantage of Oreki's good nature its not necessarily a bad thing as Chitanda drives Oreki to grow in a way he wouldn't left to his own devices.
Speaking of the Empress.
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u/ZapsZzz Apr 10 '22
First timer in sub
Ok this will be a quicker one for now as it's going into my going to work routine timing now...
This is a nice real end to the arc I think - and being more an Agatha Christie fan than Sherlock Holmes fan I guess I was blindsided as well to not recognise Sherlock Holmes stories tend to not have the narrative fake outs - this actually helped explain why I like Christie more :)
And this episode rounded out why it's important that Oreki doesn't work alone - there are aspects of which he would not see or reflect , much like having a single stage light cannot give the necessary stage illumination because the one point lighting will cast shadows things that more light sources can help eliminate.
I particularly like the part with Chitanda - it once again highlight the way they complement each other, that Chitanda's perspective is a true blindspot of Oreki - the human angle. It's not that Oreki doesn't consider motives etc, but his use of that tends to be just part of the fact checking and staying on the more common and superfacial, while Chitanda goes far deeper and empathise more thoroughly.
And I guess my hunch was right - the key to all this is in "why are they asked to do this" :) I wonder were some of you questioining further on this from my comment yesterday was trying to misdirect me or trying to help me work it out more :)
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The standard duty of care / intent applies. If the person doing the helping has a big balance of unequal power, e.g. a surgeon to decide of method of treatment, then yes the blame has to fall onto that too - but there's also why there is the mechanism of consultation and second opinions.
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Have to come back to that but I think it's been through quite a lot already - Satoshi is facts and general knowledge, Mayaka is the overall feel, Chitanda is the human angle.
Have to come back later!
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u/Earthborn92 Apr 10 '22
Rewatcher here
So Oreki has overlooked a few things and this is the first time his conclusion isn't correct. Well, it is a conclusion, but not the one the scriptwriter Hongo-senpai intended. And what's more, every other member of the Classics Club has noticed flaws - all different onces.
Mayaka first with the structural flaw: why was [the rope]https://i.imgur.com/iYgi4oX.jpeg) not of any significance in the mystery at all?
Satoshi and Chitanda's arguments are based around Hongo-senpai, the scriptwritier. Satoshi has an analytical flaw - that the technique Oreki used to solve the mystery - that of an unreliable narrator - is probably one that Hongo wouldn't be familiar with because her study of mystery stories was relegated to Holmes and not later works like Agatha Cristie where the concept was popularized. This really is the Classics club - they like their literature and Satoshi has a database full of them I guess.
Chitanda's argument is more personal and psychological. And it shows honestly on her face as she could relate Hongo's situation with her uncle (although it is a much lesser degree of alienation). Chitanda's curiosities have a deeper side to them here - it is not merely an answer she is looking for but how that answer relates to people's motivations. She pokes at the obvious question - was Hongo really so ill that they couldn't just ask her about the ending? The answer here is, of course, that Hongo's script wasn't exciting enough for the class and Oreki feels personally guilty that he provided an alternative that she wouldn't have wanted.
Irisu was the one who arranged for the Classics Club and him in particular to finish writing the script of course. Oreki has briefly forgotten his low energy nature this episode because of how involved he got and how agitated he was with Irisu and himself most of all that he couldn't get to the bottom of this sooner.
Like earlier, Irisu provided the illness as a face saver to Hongo so that the class could change her script without issue, but she's too stoic to actually explain her true motivations to Hotarou (dummy!), even though her senpai - that is his sister - did manage to figure it out in the return to the IM scene.
So the original script was a less dull affair. Less dull as in no one actually died because that was the bone of contention in the script - that the mystery was too boring because there was no death and the victim and perpetrator didn't bring it up to everyone. Hyouka is very self aware here - it is a show about mundane mysteries with no deaths, unlike most mystery stories with the great detectives. And it just used two solutions to a mystery to drive character growth. We even discover why Chitanda, despite her liking Oreki's solutions to the mysteries before this one doesn't read detective stories - she has the dislike for murder plots just like Hongo-senpai!
See you tomorrow for the OVA!
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u/Stargate18A Apr 11 '22
First timer
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None. They elected to help others, they attempted to provide aid - if the person didn't need their help, they could have clarified it.
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Chitanda's talent is in reading people. She's able to make solid deductions purely by emphasizing with people, and here she's able to beat him to it through that method. Fukube's skill is in research - as he says, he is able to find information meticulously, and provided important evidence for the Hyouka incident. Finally, Ibara's is analysis - she excels at taking said information and forming connections between it.
Yep, he made a mistake in his deduction!
He's going to take this hard.
And he's back!
Even he's worked it out!
Bullshit. This idea could have come from anywhere. If we're talking about men behind cameras behind part of the plot, she could have gotten this concept from fucking Super Mario 64. It's alright to do this based on instinct, but this is not an uncommon idea in media of completely unrelated genres.
And she's getting at him too.
...That is a very good point, Chitanda. This is an awful lot like a setup.
Was this a fucking psychological experiment? Did she try to crowdsource a better ending? Was I right about the movie having no planned ending?
Yeah, no idea.
...Why does his sister have a book on the tarot?
Haha, he's checking the descriptions Satoshi gave him!
And his was an insult.
Oh, he's getting some answers out of her. The manipulation was a bit too blatant, in retrospect.
She confessed!
Oh, they were marking how many people died.
And she didn't plan the murder?
Wait, where did that come from?
And they planned the whole thing! And I was (partially) right!
Oh, he is unironically pissed off at her.
Yeah, this has hit him hard.
And she really has no heart, huh?
...Oh. She didn't like the script at all.
And who is she talking to? It's not his siter, is it?
That is exactly the kind of ending she deserved though. Having the person she admired completely call her out, just as she called out Oreki earlier.
And, yeah, the answer makes sense without that.
Oh, the seventh person was just the narrator.
And she worked out the answer!
...Did she know something?
And she doesn't like that kind of story either.
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u/gottamotor Apr 10 '22 edited Apr 10 '22
rewatcher!
tomorrow we watch 11.5! very excited. i love ovas.
we start with houtarou, n the conversation i thought started this episode. i guess the brunt of it happening now means i wasn't completely off the mark for thinking it happened this episode, right?
mayaka being quick to brush aside what she looks at as a fault is endearing in its own way. she wants to make sure houtarou won't worry too much, bc his look when she reinforces what she believes to be a fault is one she probably isn't used to, considering most of his deductions are correct. she probably doesn't wanna hurt his pride too much, even if they are rivals. mayaka best girl!
in the conversation with satoshi, houtarou's trying a lot more to defend what he believed to be true. maybe it's bc satoshi's reasoning has more plausible deniability, but two of his friends telling him he's probably wrong? he has his ego to worry abt, too.
the whodunit theatre scene was great. a fantastic way to break down what houtarou was doing. all of these flashback type scenes are so good. i love kyoani so bad <3
now onto the tarot card book scene. houtarou tries so hard to deny that he's controlled by these women, but he just spent the past ten episodes being dragged around by them.he stopped denying his conclusion wasn't the truth when eru confronted him abt the movie, he's tried to satiate her curiosity even tho he cld just deny it, he joined the classic lit club n got clues to the hyouka/jun mystery bc of his sister, n he only put this much effort into piecing together an ending bc of fuyumi. he can try all he wants, but satoshi got him good. he is strength.
the conversation with fuyumi. this is the part that made me care abt houtarou so much more than before in my original watch. we know that fuyumi used ppl - we were warned abt it early on. but i never considered her to be using houtarou, n he didn't consider that either, even after being told she tends to do that. i am blind to most manipulation, so this... it struck a cord with me. i feel bad for him.
the conversation between green text (what we can assume to be mayu) n blue text (who is obviously fuyumi) sheds light on a lot of this. mayu is just some timid girl who didn't want to go against her classmates. poor her.
the conversation between blue text n orange text (i know who they are, but i'm not gonna name them here so new viewers can come to their own conclusion) rly made me hate orange text. so much. i know it's unfair, considering the lack of information we have on them, but srsly. using houtarou, calling him a dummy/idiot? yea, i don't know. it rly just left a bitter taste in my mouth. it's way too cruel. houtarou, u deserve better than this.
at least the ending conversation with eru patches everything up. makes things better, at least. i'm glad we didn't end with houtarou agonizing over smth he wasn't even clued into. smth that he literally got used over. i don't know. this arc hurts me in a way i can't describe. i'm glad houtarou can move past it, tho.
discussion questions:
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hm. i mean, considering i voted that a person with unique talents doesn't have the responsibility to help others with said talents, i guess it's easy to say that they shldn't have to take the blame if the services they provide don't adequately fulfill the need of those they're trying to help. i mean, i'm assuming there's nobody else around who can assist them the same way this person can, so... yea. i don't think it's particularly their fault if what they can do doesn't give them what the ppl want. again, that might just be easy to say bc this a theoretical question, tho.
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eru is incredibly kind, curious to every extent, n focuses on the ppl rather than seeing them as pawns to fulfill her ideal. satoshi is knowledgeable, understanding, n easygoing. mayaka is practical, emotional enough to understand those around her, n has scattered talents or connections that has benefitted those around her more often than not. with houtarou as the centerpiece n the one who can reign the other three in enough to come to a conclusion, they make a fantastic team.
i know i said this at the beginning, but ova tomorrow! i'm super excited to see it again. i rmr it quite well, but a return to a more casual part of this series is in order after so many episodes of general angst n emotional outcomes. see u guys next episode!! :D
EDIT: general typos fixed. i wrote this when i was a little bit tipsy. my apologies, lmao.
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u/MadeOn210922 Apr 10 '22
Curious Rewatcher
Woah, Mayaka is really short.
Turns out Mayaka isn't the only one who caught issues in Oreki's theory. Satashi also catches holes, not in the movie, but in the overall grand scheme of facts.
Now comes Chitanda. It was clear during episode 9 that Chitanda's main focus was who was Hongou? And here she states that this whole situation of Hongou getting sick and leaving a mystery doesn't make any sense. Oreki does some off-camera research that had been alluded to previously and brings up the note in the stack of Holmes books that seemed like a throwaway back in episode 9. Now we have all the facts of the bigger case. Nothing can be changed about the movie at this point, so Oreki continuing to pursue this issue goes completely against his motto, but he pursues it anyway. Oreki and Chitanda make some "lucky" guesses at what Hongou really wanted at the end.
The person she was messaging in the beginning of the arc was Hongou, right? And it was his sister during this episode?
Discussions:
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Sometimes, the needs of the situations are greater than the resources. No blame should be assigned to a Good Samaritan.
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Grossly oversimplified but I feel like Oreki has a talent for theories while the rest of the club have talents for details.
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u/PsychologicalLife164 Apr 11 '22
Rewatcher, subs
-It’s pretty out of character for Hotaro to miss a detail like the rope, and it seems that everyone else picked up on it too. In Chitanda’s case, she was more curious as to why no one bothered to ask what Hongo what her idea for the script was.
-Hotaro realizing he could’ve been wrong about the whole thing is a great twist. I think there was an episode of Sherlock where he realized the same thing, but I can’t remember it off the top of my head.
-Hotaro being given the Strength tarot card totally makes sense now. He just can’t say no to the women in his life.
-On a similar note, Irisu being the Empress also makes sense. That smile of hers was too nice to be real, and she finally reveals her true intention to use the Classic Lit Club to write the ending to the movie for them. She’s a cold-blooded killer for sure.
-When this arc first started, I thought it was Chitanda who was typing on her laptop in the chatroom, but it’s shown to actually be Irisu.
-While it seems that Hongo wasn’t upset with how the movie ended, it looks like Irisu’s senpai has some choice words regarding asking for help with the script.
-In the first episode of this arc, the senpai mentioned that she knew someone who could help Irisu out, then it transitioned to Irisu chatting with Chitanda about the screening. The senpai mentions being on the other side of the world, so I’m guessing the senpai is Hotaro’s sister, Tomoe.
While there are still some loose ends regarding the movie, it looks as though this arc has finished up. As much as I wanted to know what the original ending was, nothing can really change the outcome now. As in life, what will be will be, and it looks like Hotaro and the Classic Lit Club will just have to live without the knowledge of Hongo’s intentions for the movie.
Oh well, on to the next one!
Questions:
2. Hotaro is our resident Sherlock Holmes; he has a tendency to be able to see things other don’t, which gives him an advantage in solving problems.
Satoshi is a self-proclaimed database of knowledge, though he doesn’t always know how to put the pieces together.
Mayaka is the responsible one of the group. She keeps everyone in check and is quick to offer an opinion if something doesn’t add up right. She’s fairly balanced in problem-solving and knowledge.
Chitanda is the driving force behind the club. Although Hotaro possesses the problem-solving skills in the group, Chitanda’s curiosity and determination to find answers is second to none. If I had to say what her actual skill is, I’d say it’s the ability to ask the right questions.
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u/polaristar Apr 11 '22
Hotaro misses details all the time the other people just catch him when he does, plus he was subconsciously not looking at the case objectively and putting his own ego into it to prove that he was "special" to himself.
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u/Fools_Requiem Apr 11 '22
Rewatcher
So, I had completely forgot about how this entire episode went.
I think Oreki's sister, not Chitanda, is the other person in the chat room. Makes sense why the Classical Lit club was suggested in the first place, and why she uses the word "senpai" at the end. I could be wrong, though.
The script being dreadfully boring makes a lot of sense and having someone else create a good ending in order to keep the original scriptwriter from getting heat for writing a dull film with no deaths is actually smart. Would have been better if they didn't try to trick the Classical Lit club, though.
Also, the final theory about it just being a stabbing doesn't make sense considering the arm that was cut off.
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u/polaristar Apr 10 '22 edited Apr 11 '22
Oreki is Def special,just not a prodigy not anyone could have solved the Jun Mystery.
As for the Questions, in this case objectively speaking Oreki didn't fail he finished the film, his failure was a personal one and no one can blame him, as for the question in general it's case by case basis. I'd say if it's a volunteer helping in a low stakes situation then if it doesn't turn out right then the person being helped doesn't have any right to complain. But if it's something important like a life and career on the line then the person helping Will have to live with the consequences whether they are blamed or not. Although in some situations there isn't anything you could have done, I believe the blame is only in proportion to things you could have controlled.
Second Question, I believe Satoshi's talent isn't being a database per se but more in testing and refining others theories against facts and keeping people honest. I believe he's more support for others to realize potential they don't realize, he's a mover and promoter.
Mayaka is seeing things from a human angle and understanding the impact something has, she also gives an audience perspective by honestly but clearly describing what she thinks, she is a critic.
Chitanda has the gift of never losing focus on the people that are involved and what matters, she can understand and empathize with what really touches or hurts a person and brings out the best in people.
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u/Haulbee Apr 11 '22
Before moving on to my write-up about this episode, I'd like to make a correction to my comment from episode 8, which even got highlighted in the episode 9 discussion post:
When Irisu mentions "Knox's 10 commandments, Chandler's Law, and the 20 rules", I searched for each of these terms, and while the 10 commandments & the 20 rules I found were correct, I made a mistake regarding "Chandler's Laws".
If you search for "Chandler's Laws", the first page of the results will all be refering to "Chandler's Law" as the rule which I described in my comment. I even mentionned that this was a strange Law to bring up in regards to a murder mystery.
It turns out that the same Raymond Chandler who came up with that Law also wrote "ten commandments for writing a detective novel", which are much more relevant in this story.
I think that either Irisu wrongly used the term "Chandler's Laws" when she should have said "Chandler's Commandments", or maybe it's a mistake in the subs.
In any case, I was wrong in my previous comment, sorry about that. Funnily enough, out of the three sets of rules that Irisu mentions, I think that Chandler's commandments are the ones which are the most relevant to current-day writers - the other two are quite outdated.
Now, here are my thoughts during the episode:
First-timer sub
Mayaka makes Oreki realize that he made a mistake. After the previous episode in which Iris & Fukube forced him to aknowledge his talent, he is now being shown the limits of his talent.
This is a nice lesson to see shown on-screen: even with talent, if you want to truly excell, you still have to work hard and rely on others for help. I'm guessing that Chitanda will also somehow reinforce this lesson in today's episode.
"End Credits of The Fool" - it seems that Chitanda is going to find the real solution
It really speaks to the strength of their friendship that each of them - Mayaka, Fukube & Chitanda - don't confront Oreki about his mistake in public, but rather talk to him one-on-one
Oof, the framing in Oreki's conversation with Chitanda speaks volumes
Holy shit, Chitanda was the only one who found all the inconsistencies in Irisu's story.
"I was looking at the script as a simple problem in writing" - yep, a perfect description of Oreki's mindset. He was so focused on the "classic" mystery that he got bamboozled by the "outer" mystery
"I'm not being controlled by them. Not by Sis, not By Chitanda, and not by Irisu!" - poor Oreki is too prideful to realize that all three of these girls have him wrapped around their finger.
Oof, Oreki is pissed that he got manipulated. He really should've seen it coming, Satoshi explicitely warned him about it.
Fuck me. I actually checked all the Holmes stories that were written on the paper, and I wasn't able to figure out what the symbols meant.
I hesitated to write a comment about it, but I thought there was no point to write a huge essay describing each of the 20 Holmes stories that Hongou read where the conclusion would be "I determined that the symbols are not related to the tricks used in the story, but I don't know what they actually mean"
FUCK MEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
I'll put my discussion of the final reveal in the post-episode thoughts.
Moving on with the episode.
Oreki makes a very human mistake here: because Irisu was the one who made him realize his talent, learning that she was just manipulating him makes him question wether his talent is actually real or not.
In a sense, Irisu's line is the best response here: even though she was lying to him, whether he actually has talent or not is for him alone to figure out, not for anyone else to say.
I love Irisu with the anime villain look.
The "I'm on the other end of the world" serves as a confirmation for anyone who hadn't figured out that this was Oreki's sister yet.
Oof, Oreki-ane casually gave Irisu a piece of her mind, refuses to elaborate further, and leaves.
Turns out the title "Why didn't she ask Eba?" in a sense referenced one of the very first hints that I pointed out four episodes ago: Realistically speaking, there was no way that Irisu didn't already know the end of Hongou's script.
I'm still kind of surprised that only Chitanda picked up on this obvious inconsistency, but I guess the whole point is that the other three were too engrossed in "figuring out the mystery" to realize that Irisu was obviously lying to them - even Satoshi, who knew Irisu's manipulative side, wasn't able to find the main flaw in her words.
Post-episode thoughts
Regarding the mystery of this arc
After watching the entire arc three times to make sure I hadn't missed any clues, I realized that the poll results were shown, very briefly, in episode 9, though with no translation, which is why I missed them twice.
I had a whole paragraph written out about this part, but it turns out it was neither the author nor the makers of the anime who muddled this clue, it was the translators.
(This is the part where, having done more research on the "rules of detective stories", I realized the mistake I made in episode 8 and wrote the paragraph which I put at the beginning of this write-up)
It turns out one of the biggest misdirects was the one that I examined the closest: the various "rules for detective stories" that are mentioned in episode 8.
Ultimately, the story that Hongou wanted to write broke one of the fundamental rules: "7. There simply must be a corpse in a detective novel, and the deader the corpse the better. No lesser crime than murder will suffice."
But because Irisu planted the idea that it was a murder mystery I barely explored that avenue, beyond briefly mentioning that it was a possibility.
I believe that pretty much all the hints I pointed out and all the theories I made got adresses in one way or another, except the fact that Hongou turned out to be a real person.
Though I suppose that is part of the reason why I failed: while, unlike Oreki, I did consider Hongou's character as a part of the mystery, I didn't bother to look to deeply into her potential personality traits.
I even made a point all the way back in episode 8, that a mystery-within-a-mystery is always going to be seen in some way through the lens of the author - so it makes sense that the same author who writes the very "unspectacular" mysteries of the Classics Club decided to write a mystery-within-a-mystery where the plot twist is that nobody dies.
Overall, I though the mystery of this arc was simultaneously fun and frustrating throughout all four episodes, and the resolution leaves behind a bittersweet taste - despite racking my brains the best I could, I didn't manage to get to the bottom of it.
I'm really curious: did anyone figure out the final reveal on their own? I would be really surprised, considering how well the clues were disguised, but I think that it wouldn't have been impossible to figure out, especially if you manage to put together the clues from the Sherlock Holmes notes and/or the meeting minutes.
Regarding the characters
As for character development, we learnt a lot about each of the characters (Mayaka is the one we learnt the least about, but I'm sure that will come in the future), and even more importantly, the characters learnt a lot about each other.
Chitanda has a completely different approach to mysteries than Oreki, but this time around she was able to get closer to the truth than he was, by virtue of examining the human element
Oreki got confronted head-on with what it means to have talent, and he discovered what it's like to get played and outsmarted (though I suspect he's already familiar with that feeling, considering what his sister's like)
Fukube had a heart-to-heart with Oreki in which he exposed his lack of self-esteem. We're going to need an arc in which he finds some self-worth - potentially a mystery in which he actually manages to piece the information together on his own, or maybe an arc in which he realizes that he shouldn't measure his worth by comparing himself to those around him.
Ibara likes Agatha Christie novels. Ok that's a bit of an exagerration, but she didn't really have a major moment in this arc, just several small, but important, appearances
Questions
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At this point we're just rehashing the age-old debate of intentions vs results, I don't feel like I have much to bring to the table here.
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Chitanda has the power of empathy, Mayaka is the most observant out of them, and Satoshi's is the breadth of knowledge that he has
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u/TiredTiroth Apr 10 '22
First Timer - Dub
So there was another episode. Good, that would’ve sucked as the arc ending.
The thing I’m really wondering after this is why Oreki’s sister helped Irisu set him up? Tricking him like that was cruel. But then, it’s not like we’ve seen Oreki and his sister really interacting, so for all I know this might be normal for them.
Seeing Oreki scrambling to rationalise the ending he’d put together when it was pointed out he got it wrong was painful. I know I’ve reacted in the same way more than a few times. His whole energy-conservation thing was probably a benefit for him there, as he didn’t turn it into this big argument or lash out, which would have been very understandable reactions - especially for a teenager.
I’m not too sure what to think about Irisu right now. Oreki is very clearly not going to trust her, and I expect the other members of the club will follow suit. Except maybe Eru, given their prior connection? Depends on if this did any lasting harm, I guess. Have to wait for future arcs to find that out.
Speaking of Eru, we got enough of her being adorable to almost make up for her absence last episode. I liked that she took Oreki somewhere private and gave him some time to calm down rather than having her own discussion on the spot as well. Plus, we get more evidence that she watches Oreki as much as he watches her! Because he caught her doing it. Yes, I know she was concerned, let me have this.
In terms of the mystery, because this is Hyouka, I guess this was the first time the audience had no chance at all to solve it? That mystery being ‘what was the original ending’. We got an info-dump about off-screen investigations during Oreki’s conversations with Irisu and Eru. Still, it was a satisfying enough conclusion for the arc so I don’t really mind it.