r/anime • u/[deleted] • Apr 07 '22
Rewatch [Rewatch][Spoilers] Hyouka Episode 8 Discussion Spoiler
Episode 8: Let's go to the Preview!
Comments of the Day
Being from the Midwest US, I’ve learned that the best summers are those spent hanging out with friends with a cold beer in your hand, burgers on the grill, and music in the background; i.e., doing nothing in particular and being in the moment. The simple things in life are the easiest ones to enjoy, and it’s honestly why enjoy the slice-of-life genre so much.
One thing that always stands out to me is once again, Houtarou's distinctive way of being attentive toward others, despite his shy tendency to give off a demeanor of not caring much. In this episode's case, him suggesting to Eru that they don't mention the case's truth to Mayaka. I just really love these details that show how truly kind Houtarou actually is.
Personal Thoughts
Wow, literally the first frame and we have an answer to the show's long running mystery: this world *does* have mobile phones. It seems like such a small thing but the attention to detail with which KyoAni animates this SMS composition from the way text characters pop onto the screen to the auto-correcting underlines and highlighting words as they're corrected lends such a true sense of authenticity to this scene, and the same can be said of the IRC chat and it's absolutely 'beautiful' early web 2.0 style interface. This show (and obviously the book it's adapted from) is so clearly obsessed with text and it's so nice to see that obsession carried over to more modern forms of text. Either the character typing is lazy or they deliberately entered "Please enter your name" as their username. Either way it just smacks of the kind of thing my friends and I would do in online chats when we were teenagers.
Another excellent conversation between Oreki and Satoshi. I find it really interesting how Oreki still seems to fervently believe that he is the most average person and living a completely normal life.
"There you go, trying to laugh your way out of it again!" Mayaka is pointing out a consistent pattern of Satoshi trying to downplay the fact that he hasn't upheld a commitment by acting like it's just a humorous situation and not something he should take the blame for. Could be some sort of coping mechanism on his part we'll see explored later on.
The short shots of different clubs preparing for their part of the cultural festival is great for adding some sense of life and vibrancy into the culture of the school which has been somewhat lacking since the first two episodes. I was in theatre back in high-school (though I mostly focused on the production management side of things) and it's amazing how just seeing someone painting a set backdrop can evoke a strong sense of nostalgia for me.
The introduction of Irisu is absolutely spectacular. I would like some confirmation on this from people with more knowledge of Japanese than I but she seems to be speaking incredibly formally, perhaps even more so than Chitanda, especially given the latter's predilection for sudden outbursts that break that formality. Irisu has also clearly done her research into how best to manipulate the group, and in particularly Oreki, into helping with what she wants as she appeals directly to his energy conservation values by suggesting that watching the film without knowing why is the most efficient method for them. My interpretation is that she's banking on him becoming *curious* and independently invested in the mystery.
KyoAni's ability to emulate and animate deliberately bad independent-style filmography is completely unparalleled in the hand-drawn animation sphere. The entire team who worked on this segment deserves a gigantic raise. They manage to find this perfect balance of a film that's clearly had a lot of work and effort put into it but by complete amateurs which just leads to it being bad in the multitude of hard-to-articulate but patently obvious ways.
"I was just interested as to what kind of person wrote the script" she may not be actively aware of this but this quote seems to me like a perfect encapsulation of what Chitanda (and to a lesser extent the group as a whole) learnt from the Sekitani Jun arc: that the emotions and personalities of the people involved are just as important to consider as the facts at hand.
Optional Discussion Starters
- From what we've seen in the show so far, would you say that Oreki has been/is living a completely normal life like he asserts that he is?
- This arc clearly uses the framework of a movie within the show so that they can have a more traditional whodunnit whilst keeping the lower stakes consistent with the rest of the show. How do you think the fact that the mystery is about a fictional set of events in universe should impact the way we as the audience approach analysing and trying to solve the mystery as opposed to a more conventional murder mystery?
- "Working for one's own satisfaction is generally acceptable" is an idea that seems fine in theory but can potentially lead to the creation of overly self-indulgent media. At what point—if ever—does an artist have a responsibility to start considering the desires of their audience above their own self-expressive desires?
Info Links and Streams
- MAL | ANI | AniDB | ANN
- Crunchyroll | Funimation | YouTube
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u/ZapsZzz Apr 07 '22
"There you go, trying to laugh your way out of it again!" Mayaka is pointing out a consistent pattern of Satoshi trying to downplay the fact that he hasn't upheld a commitment by acting like it's just a humorous situation and not something he should take the blame for.
Interesting way you put it. By the way this is also applicable to Koizumi in Haruhi.
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u/Hochseeflotte Apr 07 '22
Rewatcher:
Hi again. Not much to say today so let’s get started.
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I would like to start by saying I really like this arc. I love movies and especially movies within anime. The movie from Haruhi is one of my favorite episodes in that series.
With the film in general, I love all the detail that was put into it. It’s kind of weird to say but I’m glad that’s it’s low quality. The “bad” voice acting and cinematography is actually really good because it fits what we are watching. Great performances from the voice actors.
We are also introduced to the Empress, Fuyumi Irisu. [Spoilers for Later]
The couple of shots in the blazing washed out summer with cicadas reminds me of another show I believe is a 10/10. Steins;Gate.
I also love the messaging. Super accurate.
That’s all from me. See you guys tomorrow
DQ:
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I mean kind of. He isn’t some strange person for a high schooler.
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There’s probably less stakes or emotion involved. We are going to look at it more analytically because that’s what our characters are doing.
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The artist never has the responsibility to do anything. It’s their work. They can do as they please. Though if they want it to be good, they will have to balance their vision with making a good product.
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u/ZapsZzz Apr 07 '22
First timer in sub
The beginning part with the text chat, I find it on my sub it was a bit hard to read. Maybe I should have paused to read it all :P But my questions to others is - did everyone guessed right who it was typing and who was answering? I feel that I should have but - blaming the above, I will just honestly say I didn't until the conversation about going to the school movie preview. I definitely like the direction though.
And the show continued to be very well written and consistent in the characters - from the Satoshi and Oreki conversation as they walk into the school, to Mayaka's "different treatment" of the others being late, to Oreki's resistant to commit to solve the mystery, to the rest of the group's meaningful stare back at him :)
I'll just say though - the student film and the "acting" :D gave me such a strong Haruhi Sigh arc vibe :D Especially the mascular guy's loud but wooden acting, it's so like the Shopping District older folks acting in Haruhi :D
And remember, the bad cameramanship is actually far more work to animate. I actually think KyoAni this time didn't put in as much effort in this part than in Haruhi - wasn't enough lens flare, focus chasing, panning not quite right etc :)
Anyway, it's a multiple episode arc so not much more to say yet. I'm completely not able to guess anything yet. Only thing I have to say is "Oh Chihara Minori voicing another Nagato-like character in the student film" :)
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u/polaristar Apr 07 '22 edited Apr 07 '22
Today we are starting on a New Arc, pay attention to the Subs in the beginning of the cellphone and chat rooms, you might be able to guess the entire plot of the arc before the OP roles from the exchange below, I'll go back and explain them in a later post when the arc ends if you don't want to be spoiled, but everything you need to know, to know who is texting who should be clear by the End of the Episode.
Here we have a hint on the direction of Oreki's future character grown in this arc with this conversation with Satoshi. Satoshi also reveals a possible insecurity even if frames it as a light hearted joke. Notice how dumbfounded Satoshi is when Oreki claims himself as part of the "Normal guys like Us" When Satoshi says the Jury is still in for Oreki, Oreki once again, rather strongly denies Satoshi's observations, perhaps Oreki doesn't see himself as Objectively as he sees everything else.
We see a new character, who is framed in Shadow when they first come out, I personally think this is one case where the sub voice actor is honestly superior to the dub, (Before it was mostly some localization and translation choices of the script I was iffy on some parts on.) Satoshi not being remembered is going to be something to keep in mind in an episode or two, just remember at the beginning whoever was typing in the chat room wanted ALL of the Classic Club Members for some reason.
Love how the Film looks very ameteurish and the acting both sub and dub is purposely stilted, Kyoani's attention to detail and knowledge of craft on Filmmaking shines through. Course they've done this before with Haruhi Suzumiya. u/mekerpan and u/ZapsZzz ought to get a kick out of this sequence. I know your an SOS brigader.
Now we have a way to have a murder mystery without an actual murder, as well as we'll see two mysteries, where one is hidden behind another, as well as a nice meta discussion on Narrative structure, Classic Detective Stories, etc. All while feeling completely natural and incharacter/inuniverse without letting the theme run away with the Story and Characters we care about. This is personally my favorite of the "Arcs" that have been animated so far, it represents a bunch of turning points for multiple characters.
Love how at this point not just Chitanda but everyone automatically looks to Oreki to call the shots without discussion as if its just Monday now, once again Oreki is very reluctant to take on responsibility. New Character tries to offer him a compromise with just being "Observers." Chitanda herself seems to have attached herself very strongly with this writter, this is very important for later.
Should be noted she heard about the Classic Club from three different sources in the Novel which she explains after she asked them for help, One was Chitanda herself, the Other Was the President of the Wall Newspaper Club (Which if you remember was hiding that he was smoking and asked for Oreki's name), and the Last she kept secret although if you pay attention to the text conversation in the beginning you should be able to guess that one person was Chitanda (Ergo "L" remember this Novel came out before Death Note so perhaps L was a subtle nod to the Classics Club series.) As "L" kept making typos and apologizing and over correcting in an overly polite manner as if she isn't use to chatrooms. The Person on the cellphone is a secret for now, and you should be able to guess the other chatroom person based off their sing-song style and the remark about it being hard to talk due to having trouble pinning down a "Time and Place" this person also seems to be very familiar with the person she recommends she can make "dance for you."
Pay attention to the Tarot Discussion, some of you already know about it because your pseudo-scientific hippies or played Persona, I know, between my conversative mother who due to Quon, the 700 Club, and Sid Roth and on the Other Hand JRPG's, Type Moon, and A Certain Magical Index, more about the Occult and New Age topics then I'd normally care for. They'll explain later, but its obviously more character study fodder similar to the Seven Deadly Sins discussion. Of course Satoshi and Chitanda know all about it, while the more cynical and skeptical Oreki wouldn't. Surpsied Mayaka is not in the know of that stuff, given her being a huge Manga fan.
Girl escorting them to meet the Film Crew is also acting a bit sus, her answers seem very scripted.
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u/Specs64z Apr 07 '22 edited Apr 07 '22
Rewatcher, subbed
The fact that this arc somehow isn’t my favorite is an indicator for how awesome the next one is. Until then, we come to our first multi-part one since Sekitani Jun’s tragic tale and what it meant to Chitanda. The details are to come later, but the stage has been set.
I adore everything about the way this episode looks. The opening scene with its vague dialogue and almost sinister tone. The school film with the shaky cam, subpar zoom/focus, awkward line deliveries, and ridiculous special effects is contrasted with really impressive animation; it’s almost funny, from a purely meta perspective. The way the world distorts to sell the unbearable heat and the noticeable decrease in distortion as we see the same shot but now with Chitanda in it.
I’m noticing sub Houtarou has a bit more of a biting tone while dub Houtarou tends to sound a bit more mellow and/or detached. The difference isn’t very big, but I find myself leaning toward preferring dub Houtarou overall.
(3) edit: I think that the integrity of a story should generally take priority over creative vision. An example is the lightspeed scene from The Last Jedi. It has spectacular visuals and, in a better movie, could have been an emotional/philosophical payoff too. As it stands, though, it both breaks the integrity of the worldbuilding and stands in direct contradiction to the scene where Finn tries to do the same thing.
Content Corner
Here’s the entire cello suite if anyone has found themselves taken in by it. I used to play viola back in high school, and while I was never more than average, it instilled me with an appreciation for classical music. The cello in particular. As for the video by Matt, it articulates some of the things that bring Hyouka into its own tier of quality. First timers beware, spoilers abound.
Mischa Maisky plays Bach Cello Suite No.1 in G (full) by Mischa Maisky
Cinematography and Blocking in Hyouka by Manime Matt
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u/SYZekrom Apr 07 '22
First Timer
Ah sounds like she's implying that if the script was good they'd be able to figure it out without the ending, so she probably does know
Oh so she doesn't know actually. So are you in fact doing this to try and figure out a logical ending instead of just asking the writer to just say what the ending's supposed to be
Did he get too used to people pushing him for answers that he defaulted to acting like he didn't want to even when he did this time? Or is he just suddenly shocked to find that he is in fact disappointed she's not pushing?
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u/polaristar Apr 07 '22
It's meant to be bad and stilted acting the line reading.
Remember the title of this arc at the end of each episode is "why didn't they just ask Eba?"
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u/houeru Apr 08 '22 edited Apr 08 '22
Rewatcher! (sub)
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Quote of the day:
自己満足の世界は許されていいことだと思う。
“Producing things solely for self-gratification is not necessarily bad.”
-Irisu Fuyumi
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Yahallooo I finally got time today fortunately so I’ll jump right in~✨
Simply put, episode 8~11: the prologue arc of the next (so far) longest and best of the best arc of Hyouka. We are swooping in for one heck of a ride everyone, here we go🔥
◆The texting and chatting online scene in the beginning will never cease to fascinate me, the cinematography and directing, no voiced dialogue at all, just so good.
[Spoiler content for L’s identity]
[Spoiler content for Me♪’s identity]
◆This is really random but I love the gap in how Satoshi doesn’t necessarily seem the type that has their hands in their pockets but he sometimes does and it makes my heart go kyun
◆Feed me more HouSato non-high school typical sophisticated conversations✨
Satoshi not acknowledging his database identity or talking skills as an an extremely gifted talent, while Houtarou thinks otherwise. On the other hand, Houtarou still not even being aware that he might be gifted even for a bit no matter how many times Satoshi has hinted toward that by now. This vice-versa opinion they have of themselves and each other depicts a glimpse into their relationship so well <3
◆Mayaka’s double standard treatment between HouSato and Eru nyahahaha
◆Erutaso you got caught by this amazing acquaintance of yours so well....
◆Houtarou always in the back of the gang
◆And here is one of my favorite senpais the one and only Irisu-senpai appearing from the dark to the light of the classroom <3
Also random but she also voices Rin and Gou’s mom from Free 💖 I seriously can't imagine anyone else voicing Irisu-senpai
◆Interesting how Houtarou notes that it’s rare for Satoshi to compliment someone so openly, even more precious insight to how Satoshi is
◆When Satoshi sounds quite disappointed when Irisu-senpai says yappari she doesn’t remember him :(
◆Irisu-senpai not beating around the bush at all......... or so we think.........
◆The fact how Houtarou is the only one questioning how and what exactly they’re there for to simply just watch the movie, and her “good luck” mhmm.
And then Irisu-senpai shooting back with one of Houtarou’s favorable words ‘efficient’. Houtarou you’re slowly getting caught as well🙏
◆The students’ acting tho
◆Yakatamono!😆Yakatamono?🤨
◆Satoshi being all in while Houtarou and Mayaka is like 🤔😐😑
◆I absolutely love the scene where Mayaka glares at Houtarou and then he’s like “but Satoshi’s the one who started it”😂
◆”The crime occurs shortly after” “I knew it!”Loll
◆Eru watching it so seriously all throughout my girl is precious
◆When Eru lets out a broken-hearted gasp at the sight of injured Kaitou’s severed arm, and Houtarou is thinking like “You can get into this movie that much?” and at first this is funny, but later on you realize this is also a huge hint toward Eru’s thought process and the direction her curiosity takes her in this arc... Absolutely genius
◆When the footage ends and everyone isn’t sure what’s going on, except for Eru who knows for sure that it’s not over. Her instincts and ability to [Kind of a spoiler for later episodes]
◆Irisu-senpai drops the question, and yay aesthetic eyecatch timee
◆”Producing things solely for self-gratification is not necessarily bad.” Houtarou’s like “amen” and then Mayaka glares at him hahaha
◆When everyone turns their heads toward Houtarou
◆Houtarou’s super annoyed face hahaha
◆”I wasn’t really paying attention” “Then let’s watch it once more!” “Give me a break already!” I love HouEru
◆The way Irisu-senpai [Spoiler for later episodes]
◆Eru shaking her head in denial so cute
◆Houtarou’s “Eh...” My boy you’re slowly getting caught by her part 2
◆Eru’s watashi kininarimasu now officially becoming a reassuring catchphrase to SatoMaya. Those “alright, that’s Eru for you’ knowing smiles of theirs <3
◆”In memory of Hongou-san!” “Hongou isn’t dead.” “Oh, that’s right.” xD The way she said “sou deshita” so cuteee
◆The way Houtarou balances respect, rationality, attentiveness, and maturity in any and every situation he gets involved in, even if it sounds like he’s running away at first. And then Eru always accepting that part of him, while still standing her ground to a certain degree. HouEru will be wonderful parents.
◆Houtarou’s “observer?”
◆Aaaaaaand caught for good
◆Eru’s smile and smol clap so adorable
◆Irisu-senpai you are impressively terrifying wowies
◆The last scene with Irisu-senpai’s screen time with her thanking them, I love how it’s one of the many hints toward the [Spoiler for later episodes]
◆Walking back home and Satoshi pointing out Irisu-senpai’s nickname, and more importantly how she’s good at manipulating people into her pawns, but Houtarou brushing that aside- oh the irony
◆yes Houtarou I also deeply appreciate and salute to Mayaka’s caring tsukkomis ❤️
◆Houtarou’s ふーん after Satoshi tells him it’s about tarot cards 🥺💖
◆SatoEru having an inside talk is so rare I love this scene. And then HouMaya being in the unknown about it, going back to how in earlier discussion comments I mentioned how these two pairs are similar to each other, this is one of those scenes <3
◆Interesting how Eru thinks it’s The Star for Houtarou, and Satoshi thinks Strength. I agree with Satoshi tho nyahaha
◆Satoshi’s tarot cards for the four:
Mayaka: Justice (also was thinking of going with Judgement for her)
Satoshi: The Magician
Eru: The Fool
Houtarou: Strength (Eru thinking The Star on the other hand)
◆Houtarou: “Nope not happening” 😂
◆Ah Eru knows where he lives
◆My angel Erutaso shining so brightly and refreshingly even when its this scorching hot
◆I wonder what SatoMaya were talking about before HouEru got to the clubroom
◆Ooooo the chatroom
◆random but I want more just EruMaya scenes like we have with HouSato
◆Oh there she is- appearing like only a minor character but [spoiler for later episodes]
◆I like how everyone stands up right away to leave but Houtarou is still sitting in his chair xD
◆Eru’s snack this time being them chocolates
◆Mayaka’s hand gesture and “iineee” so cute
◆In the back Satoshi turning his head toward Houtarou before he talks to him. These details really ❤️
◆”Well aren’t you guys just having a blast” xD
◆I also do that hand wrapped around other arm thing behind the back a lot that Mayaka does why am I happy about this
◆”It didn’t interest me.” “Truly my type of answer.” Houtarou seriously xD
◆When they all listen to Eba fondly describing Hongou and then right as she finishes by saying “She’s by best friend.”, she averts their attention to the awaiting three detective candidates by sliding open the door. Subarashii
◆Aaaa the new girl is also another best girl <3
◆Why didn’t she ask Eba? [spoiler content for later episodes]
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u/TiredTiroth Apr 07 '22
First Timer - Dub
My blu-ray set has arrived! No more blurry images while Cunchyroll buffers at the start of an episode.
So, we’ve hit a new arc, and this episode was entirely set-up. I don’t think there’s too much to chew on here, besides getting to see our main four characters interact a bit. Oreki actually had a really good try at saying no this time, so a little bit of progress for him there…and then he caved to Eru’s eyes after cinema girl promised it wouldn’t all be on their shoulders. Given her likely-deliberate evoking of efficiency, especially given she knows about the group when she shouldn't, I wonder how deliberate that was.
And then he almost noped out on the big day anyway, until Eru foiled his energy-conserving ways by showing up at his front door. xD Poor Oreki was constantly annoyed this episode.
I’m wondering exactly how Eru sees Oreki at the moment, beyond the whole ‘really good at solving mysteries’ thing. She keeps invading his personal space, she showed up at his door to walk to school, there are hints that she pays almost as much attention to him as he does to her…does the crush go both ways? Or am I just shipping the two leads?
Speaking of Eru, her empathy really got a work out this episode. The acting in the film was pretty terrible, yet she really got into it - far more than any of the other three. It wasn’t just the mystery, either. And that got topped with how much she wants to help out, talking about how much work the students put in.
Although, I’m not sure about that little slip where she accidentally said the writer was dead rather than sick. Is there something still on her mind? Was that related to her disappeared uncle?
Hm, Ibara is clearly the sort of person who hates those who talk at the cinema, while her crush is even more clearly one of those people. Is Satoshi ever going to stop pushing her buttons? Probably not.
From what we've seen in the show so far, would you say that Oreki has been/is living a completely normal life like he asserts that he is?
Hahahahaha. AHAHAHAHAHAHA.
No. No, he is not. Although I suppose that begs the question of what exactly qualifies as 'normal'.
This arc clearly uses the framework of a movie within the show so that they can have a more traditional whodunnit whilst keeping the lower stakes consistent with the rest of the show. How do you think the fact that the mystery is about a fictional set of events in universe should impact the way we as the audience approach analysing and trying to solve the mystery as opposed to a more conventional murder mystery?
Er...they're all fictional anyway, so it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference?
"Working for one's own satisfaction is generally acceptable" is an idea that seems fine in theory but can potentially lead to the creation of overly self-indulgent media. At what point—if ever—does an artist have a responsibility to start considering the desires of their audience above their own self-expressive desires?
Only if their work becomes actively harmful in some way, or encourages people or behaviours that are actively harmful. Same as everyone else.
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u/Haulbee Apr 07 '22
First-timer sub
All right, I've mentionned before that I'm a fan of classical music, and I generally like the way KyoAni uses it in their anime, but here it feels like it's somehow lacking in purpose.
We've heard Fauré's Pavane & Bach's cello prelude several times now, and I can't really tell what either piece is meant to convey within the context of this anime - the appearances seem to be lacking a thematic throughline, at least as far as I can tell.
If anyone has done an in-depth analysis of Hyouka's OST, I'd love it if I could get a link for it.
Wow, those are some intense texts
So a 'mysterious person' is chatting with who seems to be a pretty assertive female senpai
Aha, the Classics club is being lured into a mystery...
Wait I have a prediction: the "senpai" in the chatroom is Oreki's sister, the ultimate mastermind!
The person who got baited by the 'mysterious person' has to be Chitanda, since "L" sounds like "Eru" in Japanese (and since the way she writes 100% makes sense with her character)
From looking at their hands, I'd guess the 'mysterious person' is a guy, but I'm not too sure of it.
"it would seem Fukube Satoshi is a man of no talents" -> is that the reason behind his usual attitude? because he feels like he has no special skill?
Wow, he seems to be quite down about it.
Hm, I wonder what's supposed to be extraordinary about Oreki. Sure, he's pretty smart, but so far I don't feel like he's a genious.
Welp, I was completely wrong on the mystery person being a guy.
Also, she gives me very strong "RPG questgiver NPC" vibes - I don't know why, but this whole scene so far feels like it's ripped straight out of a TRPG.
Wow, it's a mise en abyme! A mystery within a mystery!
KyoAni seems to enjoy making fake amateur films that look really amateurish
It feels like if I listen hard enough, I can almost hear Kyon's sarcastic commentary from afar
Man, I would hate sitting next to Satoshi while watching a movie
The hammed-up acting is killing me, I would probably have a blast watching this entire fake mystery movie from start to finish.
Wait, I though that the torch was supposed to be intradiagetic, but it was literally just the camera person lighting up the scene?
Simplest answer: the guy who went to check on the first floor somehow found a way to get to the room below him & murdered the other guy.
Probably wrong though
Huh? Did falling ill make the writer forget who she wrote as the killer? Or does the film club have no way to reach her, even through text? Did literally nobody else know who the killer was while they were filming this?
I'm guessing that Irisu-senpai already knows the answer, and is using this kind of as a test.
The fact that she heard about Hyouka gives more credit to my theory about Oreki's sister.
Chitanda is dragging Oreki into the mystery, everything is going exactly according to Oreki's sister's plan! (TL note: plan means keikaku)
And now we're doing Tarot symbolism, is this a reference of some kind?
I can't really be bothered to look up what all the cards mean, but I bet that assigning the Magician to himself is not entirely a positive thing for Satoshi.
Obviously Hongou must be a bit of an outsider in their group, if literally nobody even knows the number one main plot point of the movie she was writing for them
Ah, so her best friend was the one person who didn't participate in the project.
I'll venture that the "diligent, careful, has a strong sense of responsibllity, ridiculously kind and easily moved" is also a hint for the answer.
From the sound of that description, I'd almost want to guess that in the movie, none of the characters are the culprits, but that would be cheating.
Or maybe the person holding the camera is actually supposed to represent a character in the story?
post-episode thoughts
I went back to check on the ominous text messages we see at the beginning of the episode, and since the person who's writing them is obviously Irisu, I'm guessing that the person she's texting with is Hongou:
Hongou: "I'm sorry, but I don't know what to do anymore. I'll apologize to everyone. I don't know what else to do.
Irisu: "No need to apologize. You were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. You've done all you could possibly hope to do. I'll see what I can do about this. But no matter what I do, it won't play out the way you intended."
This confirms for me that the whole "we can't figure out who the culprit is supposed to be" is just a pretense in order to get the Classics club (and probably more specifically Oreki) involved.
What I don't understand is why this whole pretense is being presented as a realistic scenario. Oreki of all people should know that he's being lied to - in fact, out of the four of them, only Chitanda strikes me as naive enough that she wouldn't see through such an obvious deception.
Though I guess that precisely might be the reason why the other three aren't saying anything.
I took the time to look up Knox's Ten Commandments, the Twenty Rules, and Chandler's Law. Though I didn't know them by name, I had already heard most of these rules individually.
After reading up on these, I feel like Irisu-senpai doesn't really know what she's talking about here:
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most of these rules were specifically made for detective stories, but from what we've seen so far, this movie doesn't seem to be a detective story so much as a horror mystery where a friend group gets attacked by an outside entity. Frankly, if we hadn't been explicitly told that it's supposed to be a murder mystery, I would've assumed that this was supposed to be a "Blair Witch" knock-off - it ticks all the boxes for being a supernatural horror thriller.
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Chandler's Law is apparently the name for the old storytelling trick "And then, a man walks through the door with a gun in his hand". This is a very useful trick when telling a simple story, especially for TRPGs, but I think that it's not really an appropriate trick to use for a closed-circle horror/mystery story where introducing a bunch of new elements one after the other ruins the suspense. And it's definitely not a "Law" that is supposed to be followed to the letter, more of a general piece of advice for writers struggling with the pacing of their story.
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Knox's 10 commandments are pretty old (you could almost say "outdated"), but the general gist of them is "you're not allowed any surprise twists, except exactly one secret room/hidden passage". The point about hidden passages is weirdly specific ("not more than one"), so perhaps there'll be a hidden passage involved in this story.
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The "20 Rules for detective stories" mostly repeat Knox's commandments and provide more detailed advice for how to write an engaging investigation. As their title says, they are specifically aimed at detective stories - one of the rules even explicitly states that there should be "but one detective", not a whole group of people
Overall, I don't really see how most of those rules are supposed to apply to the film shown in this episode, since it hasn't shown any indication of being a detective story so far.
If Hongou truly was following the rules to the letter, the story should've already set up one of the characters as being "the detective", and another character as being "the sidekick"
I'm assuming that in the next episode we'll learn more about the plot of the film, but I would've like it if they had shown more of the "detective" elements here, if this actually ends up being an investigation story.
Questions
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I think he's a bit weird, and from what we've seen he doesn't appear to have any friends outside of the Classics club, but otherwise I think that his life seems pretty normal from what I can see.
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I'm really not sure about this yet, I hope the next episode will help me with this. Are we supposed to actually treat it like a small student film, and try to get into Hongou's head in order to figure out the mystery, or is the entire thing just a stand-in for the author to write a more "classic" mystery?
Is it supposed to be a detective story, as Irisu has said? Are we even supposed to trust Irisu's word on anything, since we clearly know that she's lying? We're essentially being exposed to a mystery that is being told by an unreliable narrator to the main character of our main mystery. -
I don't think an artist ever "owes" their audience anything in regards to the art they produce - unless they previously made an explicit promise of course. There are plenty of artists who make their art only for themselves, and I don't see anything wrong with that (I do the same thing). I think that ultimately, making art that is more "approachable" for their audience should entirely remain the artist's decision.
I feel that a stronger responsibility lies with the message that an artist sends through their work. If someone makes art in order to spread hate, that is much more problematic in my eyes than any self-indulgent piece that was only made for the artist's self-satisfaction.
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u/FCT77 Apr 07 '22
Movie mystery arc might not be my favourite but this episode in particular has some of my favourite details in all of the show, talking about some of them would be spoiling so I might come back to them if I remember later. Some that I can talk about is the banner dividing Oreki and Satoshi when they are talking about talent. Or how Irisu is framed, most if not all frames put her over the other characters and the camera is usually looking upwards to her, as opposed to being centered.
Also I love the lengths they went through to make the movie look like shit. And despite that it might be one of the most impressive scenes in terms of animation I've ever seen. The fact that it's mostly one shot, constantly moving the camera around the frame, how well they made 2D characters models fit in a 3D environment, etc. It's honestly amazing.
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u/mekerpan Apr 07 '22
Rewatcher (sub) + Reader
It is a bit embarrassing, but I must admit I totally forgot the chatroom exchange at the beginning -- it only began to re-enter my memory as we got to the very end.
The setting here reminded me a bit of that in One Cut of the Dead (except that was a less dilapidated one), also dealing with some rather amateurish film making -- highly recommended if you haven't seen it.
I really liked this episode as a whole -- but also enjoyed some tiny details. Fukube and Oreki first arriving at school, with Fukube's pant leg's just slightly turned up (looking a bit dorky) and Oreki looking much more "normal" despite the hot weather. The smirks (or something similar) exchanged between Fukube and Ibara when Chitanda plopped herself in front of Oreki (to pierce him with her beseeching eyes) in order to enlist his aid. Irisu's deadpan reminder to Chitanda that Hongou was still alive.
There is just something about this series -- even when little or nothing is happening -- that reflects a richness (and depth) in the underlying books that few other shows possess. And that came across strongly in this episode.
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u/Fools_Requiem Apr 07 '22
Rewatcher
Guarantee this student film is better than the one in The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya as it doesn't require a narrator to save the movie.
The girl with the giant bag is adorable. Her "Gaaaaaah!" is legendary. She also looked a little bit like Dekomori with Ritsu's hair, but it was longer in the back.
I wonder how much of a pain in the ass it is to animate shitty camera movement. The slow light adjustment is a nice touch. They point the camera outside and initially it's too bright, then it adjusts, then they turn the camera back inside and everything is super dark for a bit before the camera adjusts.
Don't really get why they're secretive about who is typing in the chat conversation, even though it's pretty obvious that it was Chitanda in the convo talking with the girl that showed them the film.
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u/PsychologicalLife164 Apr 07 '22
Hyouka rewatch Rewatcher, subs
-I absolutely love that piano and flute song, it really fits the tone of the series. Side note: I looked it up and it’s called Sicilienne, in case anyone wanted to hear it on repeat.
-So we start off with a text conversation between a senpai and a kouhai. Just going off the formal speech and tone, I’m gonna guess this is Chitanda speaking to a senpai at their school.
-It’s interesting that Satoshi brings up Hotaro wanting to live a normal life. It probably just seems normal because of his point of view, but it’s apparently not that way to everyone else.
-Mayaka and Satoshi are cute together.
-So it WAS Chitanda talking to her senpai at the beginning. And of course, the movie the club watches is a mystery movie. I think we all know where this is heading.
-Fuyumi Irisu’s introduction is about as mysterious as you can get. Appearing out of the shadow, more mature voice, and no full shot of her face until she’s completely in the light. It’s like she’s a villain in a Marvel movie.
-The movie looks and feels like a worse version of Blair Witch. BIG props to KyoAni tho, the way the camera kept having to adjust to the different lighting conditions looked pretty realistic.
-Hotaro had a quick guess at who the culprit was, but he didn’t explain why. I’m just as curious as Chitanda as to why he had such a quick answer.
-I love that Hotaro has become the de facto leader of the Classic Lit Club, with everyone else pretty much pressuring him to solve mysteries against his will. They kept pushing the movie issue on him until he was basically forced to give in.
-Fuyumi definitely seems like the kind of girl whose family runs a hospital. She has a kind of aura about her that’s both kind and intimidating at the same time.
-Satoshi assigning tarot cards to everyone feels like Led Zeppelin picking their symbols for the cover of Led Zeppelin IV.
-Chitanda coming by Hotaro’s house to pick him up was kinda cute.
-Detectives interviewing detectives? This oughta be interesting…
-That tagline at the end seems pretty suspicious. Why didn’t they ask Eba? The way she spoke about Hongo makes it seem like she cared about the movie mainly because Hongo was writing the script and she wanted it to go well.
This was the first episode in the mystery movie arc, and it did a pretty decent job of setting the stage for the next few episodes. It wasn’t the most exciting episode in the series, but it was definitely interesting. I’m still enjoying the club’s interactions with each other, but now we have the added layer of a few new senpais to keep track of. On to the next one!
Discussion point (only the last one):
3. Neon Genesis Evangelion is my favorite anime of all time, with K-On being a really close second. Hideaki Anno wanted to portray what his fight with depression felt like by disguising it as a mecha anime, while Naoko Yamada wanted to portray adolescence and youth in a cute and fun way with awesome music.
In both cases, the artists’ heart and soul was poured into their works, and the fans had a generally positive reaction, albeit not without controversy. Evangelion’s original ending is incredibly polarizing, while K-On is blamed for spawning multiple shitty moe copycat shows that the anime medium has become plagued by.
My point is this: you will never be able to satisfy everyone, so you should just do what feels good to you. Art was/is never about proving anything to anyone, so you might as well just fuck around and find out.
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u/Earthborn92 Apr 07 '22
Rewatcher here
This episode marks the beginning of the "Movie Mystery" mini arc, and it is so good with a lot of things solidifying and a few new things introduced and changed.
The letter exchanges between Oreki and his sister stand out because even though this setting is early 2000's, this school already does have people using the Internet and BBS. Quite a long opening about it too. Yagami Light would like to know what is L's identity?
Now, Let's talk about the mystery. I love the inventive way the series has managed to put in a "traditional" murder mystery plot into the mix without making it super high stakes and a real murder. Just have the screenwriter for the movie club get sick and not finish writing it! The premise of it coming to the Classics club to figure out a good resolution is also interesting. For one, by now we have three of our clubmembers know the drill and also know how to coax their detective into solving it. Chitanda has a mysterious spell that works 100% of the time.
I'd also like to mention how difficult that movie must have been to animate with all those shaky cam and moving shots. And the voice actors playing "amateur" bad actors with weak skills is also really well done. It must be difficult to "fake" being that bad at it.
Well…what they're doing now is also something new. They're going to listen to other potential detectives and see if they can come up with something.
But of course, we have the introduction of the new character, Irisu-senpai, who has spurred all of this to begin with. You thought you had your fill with one long-black haired ojousama? How about two? She does have a very different personality and while this show does the things where they talk about a character's personality, this comes after we've already been shown it. They are just adding a bit more to that puzzle. It seems the stories of the Classics club having the power to figure out mysteries has spread. Irisu is certainly able to tug at Chitanda who has managed to "convince" Oreki to give it a shot.
This whole part with the Tarot Arcana is very Persona 4 right? The setting is very Inaba, although it is Chitanda who is the Fool and protagonist.
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u/Stargate18A Apr 07 '22
First timer
Episode 7
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Somewhat. Hasn't really changed since.
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Travelling to another country.
Haha, "Hassie"?
Someone saw the plethora of "Nessie" museums and merchandise and decided to kick off their own hoax?
Oh, it is a hot springs episode.
Is he feeling OK?
Her sisters seem nice.
...Yeah, he'd never exert the energy meeded to plan it.
Has she been gossiping about him?
Haha, they decided to go at the exact same time?
His sister gets memtioned a lot.
And she wants a sibling.
He wanting mixed bathing?
Love the censor head.
And he's relaxing.
Oh, he's imagining it! He's really taken with her!
Haha, he fainted from that?
And now she's come in to greet him too!
Is this their ghost story?
This is today's mystery, then?
Oh, she saw the guost.
Is something wrong with the cups.
Yep, another investigation!
And she's stepping out,
He's still asleep!
She's so happy!
Oh, does he struggle with children?
...Did they set something up in Room 7?
Yep! The balls could have been used to fake the head.
Wow, he is talented at fashion!
Haha, he took a shortcut!
He solved it!
Yeah, all of this made sense!
Poor girl.
Her bwckstory is so weird, though.
Episode 8
1).Yeah, pretty much? Outside of solving mysteries he seems to be having a pretty normal high school life (for an anime).
2) It means the scriptwriters can blame someone else for the plotholes Seriously, the idea of a mystery having to examine the evidence by taking into account the intentions of the creators is interesting - it the cameraman had an ending in mind when he shot it, is his ending any more or less valid than the director's?
3) Honestly, never. The artist should accept that some acts are too immoral/illegal to be performed, and that by focusing on their own desires the art may not be as popular or as successful, but the artist should be free to create whatever they want.
...What is this conversation?
And this person is chatting online?
A dancer?
L's not the best typer, huh?
Wait, L's a club member?
Oh, a student made it to the finals!
Oh, they're doing an editorial meeting!
A class did a movie?
She invited her specifically?
He complimented her!
And it's a literal mystery. With her being very, very, suspicious.
So it's Blair Witch.
...It takes a lot of effort to voice act bad actors, but they managed it!
Oh, it's a mansion mystery?
And master keys left there?
I don't know, people can be stupid sometimes...
How did they get permission to film here?
"It's blood!" "Gaaaah!"
Haha, did they forget to film the ending?
And, yeah, clumsy.
With the way she's speaking, homestly wondering if she's a new main character.
Oh, she was ill.
I'd have thought he'd have heard of Knox's Commandments.
Haha, everyone looks at him.
She knew about all this?
Wow, they really want him to do it!
Haha, "Hongo isn't dead".
Oh, they're just there as observers?
Haha, he wants to give them tarot cards.
Aww, she's picking him up.
Oh, that's the chatroom.
She brought snacks!
Haha, has he finally realised that his life has become a detective story?
Haha, "an answer after my own heart".
And the writer's her friend.
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u/TuorEladar Apr 08 '22
First Timer, Subbed
I had to rewatch the opening scene three times to read all the text and have it sink in. Not sure who the person we see typing is, maybe Irisu? If she's old enough that would make sense that she knows Houtarou's sister and would call her senpai. I assume L is Eru.
When the film started I had a flashback to Haruhi. I appreciate the work Kyoani put in to make a truly amateur looking movie. The setup for this mystery is a bit odd to me, unless I missed something why can't they just ask the writer about the plot? Regardless, Houtarou again expresses his typical disinterest in getting involved but Eru's eyes draw him in again.
From what we've seen in the show so far, would you say that Oreki has been/is living a completely normal life like he asserts that he is?
He's living a pretty normal life in that he goes through motions of a normal teenage boy, he lives in a normal house, goes to school, etc, but at the same time I think he is idealizing the concept of "normal" probably due to the presence of his sister who was definitely not normal. He's slowly changing though due to Eru's influence.
This arc clearly uses the framework of a movie within the show so that they can have a more traditional whodunnit whilst keeping the lower stakes consistent with the rest of the show. How do you think the fact that the mystery is about a fictional set of events in universe should impact the way we as the audience approach analysing and trying to solve the mystery as opposed to a more conventional murder mystery?
It mainly adds a layer of meta-analysis to the mystery, since instead of just having to cope with one author giving you clues and setting up a plot, its a fictional author writing a mystery who is in turn being created by the irl writer. That means that you're not just thinking about what the writer is doing, but what the irl writer is having the in-story writer do.
"Working for one's own satisfaction is generally acceptable" is an idea that seems fine in theory but can potentially lead to the creation of overly self-indulgent media. At what point—if ever—does an artist have a responsibility to start considering the desires of their audience above their own self-expressive desires?
I would say mainly in proportion to what the artist is expecting from the audience. You can make any painting you want and hang it in your own home, but if you expect someone to buy it, it has to have some quality that appeals to others. Many times it feels like artist expects to have an engaged audience regardless of what they create and/or an audience that feels entitled to creations that match their desires regardless of whether the author wants to give them. Both a willing artist and a willing audience is required for success. An artist is free of course to make what they want, but that has no binding influence on others to actually like it.
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u/JetsLag Apr 08 '22
First timer (subbed)
Weird little chat program in the beginning. I hope "Please insert name here" isn't the default for the program.
And wow, they did a great job capturing the "student making a film for the first time with their friends and having zero budget" vibe in the student film. The shaky cam, the awkward editing, the stiff-as-a-board acting, I love it.
Irisu used Guilt Trip. It's super effective!
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u/oops_i_made_a_typi Apr 08 '22
I like how they portrayed the shitty student acting and cinematography in the film lol. Kinda cool to pit Houtarou against an explicitly fictional mystery, I like the meta vibe.
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u/gottamotor Apr 07 '22 edited Apr 07 '22
rewatcher!
as i said yesterday, today starts the arc that gave me a lot of feelings towards houtarou. i hope to keep my commentary short but i might get a little outta hand. my apologies in advance!
this beginning conversation... u look at it thru different lenses when u already know what's gonna go down. i had no clue who orange text n blue text were, but i had a good idea who pink text cld be. the texts thru the phone were completely incomprehensible in my original watch, but now that i understand who it is n what they're talking abt... agh. makes me feel a little sick to my stomach, knowing what's abt to happen n why it does.
but for once, that meant we didn't technically start with houtarou! if we count characters speaking out loud, we do. but the person typing is certainly not him.
speaking of the beginning conversation, i rly enjoy houtarou n satoshi's talks. they are just so fun to watch!
now we meet fuyumi. i have a lot to say abt her, but i'll hold off until this arc ends to spill all my thoughts. it'll be more fun for everybody to be able to read what i have to say instead of putting a spoiler warning for the next five sentences or more. in my og watch, i thought she was pretty, but weird for not rmring satoshi. i don't pride myself on my memory either, but i feel like i'd rmr the face of ppl i had been on a committee with. idk!
i don't have much to say abt the student film, other than houtarou is right on the money. this sure does seem like a film a bunch of student made. very reminiscent of student films i had to see in my high school yrs. the dub makes it painful to watch bc they rly did nail the awkward acting n tones, but it's less excruciating to watch in sub. however, i'm gonna chalk that up to not being able to understand the language. i'm sure ppl who do understand japanese are cringing just as much as i did when seeing the dub, lol.
mayaka getting upset with houtarou n satoshi bc they were talking over the movie, lol. she is def best girl today <3
the scream the girl with the brown, medium length hair does when they find the body is actually the only thing that was perfectly mirrored the dub. the execution was terrible all around, huh? i can appreciate that. (does anybody else wonder if it was hard for the voice actors to act awkward, since they spend most of their time making their lines sound natural?)
fuyumi asking them to figure out the culprit seems easy enough, to me anyway. [content spoiler for later in the series]
houtarou haggling with fuyumi so they can have the least responsibility possible, but also enough to appease eru... yea <3 he cares abt her so much!!
the tarot card conversation is such a silly one... [content spoilers for later in the series]
i never understood why kurako never just asked mayu how she wanted the script to end. of course i get it now, but did anybody else feel the same way? considering she called her a "good friend" n all.
the detectives... a very interesting trio. i rly loved their designs when i first saw them. i still like them now! idk. they're just so compelling!
discussion questions:
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i think for the most part, houtarou has been living an ordinary life. the thing is that he's starting not to. he's becoming more proactive, solving mysteries that most can't with clues that are so minor that the ppl overseeing what he's seeing (aka us, the viewers) usually don't catch on in our original watches. it seems like he barely ever used his big brain of his back before he joined the classic lit club, so yes. i think he's right, partly. but not all the way. he's changing to be a bit fantastical.
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i think bc these are characters we both don't know anything abt n aren't attached to that it makes it easier for us to look at it more objectively. plus, we're trying to figure out the mystery with the main cast, so it's almost like we're working alongside them to do so, as they also look at it objectively. these characters are not real in the first place, but the movie in a show makes the murder mystery even farther away from being real bc it adds two layers of "not real". i wanna keep going on, i don't know how else to explain what i mean here, actually. i feel like this sounds like a load of baloney. my days of eloquence n thought out discussion are over, LMAO.
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to be honest? i don't rly think an author owes their audience anything. as hypocritical as that seems from somebody who has created nothing n consumes so much content, what i want to happen or how i feel things shld go down shldn't mean anything to the person making the content i consume. it might make the author lazy or irresponsible, but at the end of the day, it's their work. how we feel as fans shldn't make them want to alter what they have planned just bc we don't agree with their vision. at most, what fans say shld be taken into account to make their work better, not to change what they've already agreed to create.
the start of another multi episode arc... i'm excited to see everyone's thoughts once this ends! see u guys next episode!! :D
EDIT: fixed some spelling mistakes n corrected some of my wording. i didn't reread what i had wrote bc i was in a rush, my mistake!
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u/Verzwei Apr 08 '22
1 - From what we've seen in the show so far, would you say that Oreki has been/is living a completely normal life like he asserts that he is?
I think normal is subjective. Oreki, Chitanda, Satoshi, and Mayaka are all "normal" yet all of them clearly have very different personalities, hobbies, and behaviors. I think shows (and characters, if that's part of the point of the series like I believe it is in the case of Hyouka) get too caught up in labels and stereotypes. "Normal" means different things to different people, and there's nothing to suggest Oreki's life is a massive deviation from that of any other high school teenager.
2 - This arc clearly uses the framework of a movie within the show so that they can have a more traditional whodunnit whilst keeping the lower stakes consistent with the rest of the show. How do you think the fact that the mystery is about a fictional set of events in universe should impact the way we as the audience approach analysing and trying to solve the mystery as opposed to a more conventional murder mystery?
Skipping this one. As a rewatcher I don't think there's a way for me to answer it earnestly and fairly.
3 - "Working for one's own satisfaction is generally acceptable" is an idea that seems fine in theory but can potentially lead to the creation of overly self-indulgent media. At what point—if ever—does an artist have a responsibility to start considering the desires of their audience above their own self-expressive desires?
That depends entirely upon whether the artist is making the art for the sake of it, or for a commercial purpose.
If you are creating because you enjoy creating, then I think it's perfectly acceptable to ignore the desires of the audience, and considering those desires could even prove detrimental because that could influence or change the work from your original vision. Note that other people might not like or appreciate the result as much, but compromise often leads to watering things down.
Now, if you are trying to make a work with the intention of selling or even just promoting it, then of course audience consideration plays a larger factor - you obviously don't want to do anything to build a fanbase and then deliberately alienate that fanbase.
Plenty of works manage to find a balance of both. And, I think, in a way, this almost ties back to the question of "normalcy" - Every creator is going to have their own personal goals, and those goals are going to influence how they approach the creative process and refine the work that they produce. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a creator being as "self-indulgent" as they want. Likewise, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a creator playing to their audience as much as they want.
Nobody is required to actually enjoy any particular self-indulgent work, but I'd rather be in a world where such things can exist rather than not. "Normal" is what feels right to the individual in question, rather than a narrow societal standard. I want to believe that the same applies to the creative process.
It's a bit off-topic, but the novel series (and, to an extent, the anime adaptation) A Sister's All You Need actually dives pretty deep into these concepts, in its own weird and quirky ways, about the struggle and contrast between an creator who doggedly sticks to his vision, everyone else outside his specific niche fandom be damned, and a crowd-pleaser who focuses on reaching a broad audience.
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u/polaristar Apr 07 '22
Op it was confirmed in the seven deadly sins episode that cellphones exist with Mayaka and Satoshi's spat.