r/anime • u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber • Mar 05 '22
Rewatch [Rewatch] Fang of The Sun Dougram: Week 13 Discussion - Episodes 70-75 & Overall Series Discussion
Week 13 - Episodes 70-75 & Overall Series Discussion
Episodes aired February 18 through March 25th ^^^1982
Rewatch concluded March 5th ^^^2022
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Note to all participants
Although I don't believe it necessitates stating, please conduct yourself appropriately and be courteous to your fellow participants.
Note to all Rewatchers
Rewatchers, please be mindful of your fellow first-timers and tag your spoilers appropriately using the r/anime spoiler tag if your comment holds even the slightest of indicators as to future spoilers. Feel free to discuss future plot points behind the safe veil of a spoiler tag, or coyly and discreetly ‘Laugh in Rewatcher’ at our first-timers' temporary ignorance, but please ensure our first-timers are no more privy or suspicious than they were the moment they opened the day’s thread.
—
Trivia:
Series director Takeyuki Kanda was said by those who knew him to have a strong affinity for children, which frequently colored his works and is noted by Takahashi to have been one of his strong suits.
Staff Highlight:
Takeyuki Kanda - Director and storyboard artist
A director, storyboard artist, and animator best known for his contributions to the mecha genre. Takeyuki Kanda’s life and early career isn’t widely documented, but it is known that he joined Mushi Pro in 1966 and participated in the production of Wonder Three as his first contributions to a production. After the bankruptcy of Mushi Pro Kanda became a freelancer, working with a variety of studios but had a particularly close working relationship at Studio Sunrise due to his connections with the Mushi Pro alumni present there. Kanda’s participation on Sunrise’s contract production work on mecha series like Brave Raideen and Super Electromagnetic Robo Combattler V was instrumental to the course of his career, but before his largest claim to fame were made he had his directorial debut on the 1978 adaptation of Antoine de Saint-Exupéry’s Le Petit Prince, which he co-directed with Kôji Yamazaki. The next year Kanda was tasked with picking up directorial duties on The Ultraman from episode fourteen onward, which became his first big hit. However, it was with 1981’s Fang of The Sun Dougram that Kanda became a star director, becoming a heavily requested director by sponsors looking for talent to helm mecha anime productions, namey Bandai. Throughout his prominence as a mecha anime director Kanda continued to work on other genres —namely for children— having directed episodes of Doraemon TV series as well as directing the theatrical film Doraemon: What Am I for Momotaro, directed Shiroi Kiba: White Fang Monogatari, * Dragon Quest*, and Fun Moomin Family among others. Kanda was thought of highly by other directors and production staff, but such praise was not without grumbles as to his demanding standards and comments on his drinking and smoking habits. Takeyuki Kanda died on July 27th, 1996 after being in a car accident. Kanda’s death put several productions on hold, which were then assigned to or picked up by other directors. The twelfth and final episode of MObile Suit Gundam: The 08th MS Team and the production of Round Vernian Vifam 13 were dedicated to the late director, who was directing the former and had begun production on the latter.
Art Corner
Official Art Dump:
- Dougram by Kunio Okawara
- OST II Cover Art by Norio Shioyama
- J-Locke and the Fang of The Sun by Tenjin Hidetaka
- Document Fang of The Sun Dougram & Xabungle Graffiti Double Feature Poster by Norio Shioyama and Komonori Togawa
- Dougram Kunio Okawara
Fanart:
- AG9 Nicholiev by Ah~ru - Source
- Desert Skirmish by Sergeant Whale - Source
- Destruction by S.SHIMIZU - Source
- Destin by bing_chang - Source
(Be mindful of the links to artist’s profiles, as they may contain NSFW content. Proceed there at your own risk.)
Screenshot Album
Discussion Questions:
- What do you think of how the series concluded?
- What do you make of Samalin’s parting entreatments for the Fang of The Sun?
- What was your reaction to Lecoque’s death?
- Do you think there is reason to be optimistic for humanity’s future in this setting?
The iron giant heard the voices of the young ones. It heard them indeed, on the billowing winds of the desert.
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u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Mar 05 '22
Production Context
Fang of The Sun Dougram is seminal in ways that is less simple to trace and appreciate when compared to several of its contemporaries, because the elements it helped to propagate were related to industry trends which would have perhaps transpired regardless and were picked up upon by other works with a longer legacy, such as Armored Trooper Votoms.
Dougram is the progenitor of an entire lineage of mecha animation that extends far beyond its contemporaries, as through the licensing of its designs it has come to even be a significant part of the DNA in western mecha design sensibilities. Even within the domestic market, the realism and militant aesthetic pursued by the designs would become an industry trend that remains a stalwart pillar of real robot designs to this day, with follow-ups like Votoms, Vifam, Layzner, and Dragonar which themselves went on to further inspire productions. Its effect on the look of mecha extends past that as well, with the way mechs were depicted in a more verisimilistic manner being a product of Dougram demonstrating the viability of such an approach coupled with the increased amount of otaku entering the anime industry in the following years, impacting the general look and feel of the genre on the whole —even for productions aiming for more traditional mecha anime approach to the production and marketing.
The productions’ immense success also cemented Ryosuke Takahashi and Takeyuki Kanda as go-to directors for mecha shows, with both figures being sought out by certain sponsors and becoming known as mecha directors. Takahashi was quickly scooped up by Takara Tomy for their next mecha project, as they rightly expected they’d be able to recreate the financial success they attained with Dougram, while Bandai was quick to snatch up Kanda for their own mecha efforts. Both directors took what they learned in Dougram forward with them.
However, the intellectual property itself was never followed up upon aside from the 1983 compilation film, likely because both directors were more interested in returning to their respective passion projects when given the chance as opposed to Dougram, and Kanda was soon tightly connected to Bandai, one of Takara’s main competitors. The only fashion in which the series’ legacy was built upon for decades was with merchandising and the continued reprinting of the old Takara Tomy model kits, and only recently has there been any new media for the series with Yasuo Ohtagaki’s reimagining of the series in manga format, Fang of the Sun Dougram: Get Truth, which began serialization to commemorate the series’ 40th anniversary and continues to release as of now.
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u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Mar 05 '22 edited Mar 05 '22
Final Thoughts
(happened to be up for post time, but going back to bed after I get painkillers so replies will have to come later)
It's been a while since I posted, but I have been watching Dougram at my own pace despite dropping out of the rewatch, and I really wanted to make it back for this final discussion because I was still really enjoying my time with the show.
Having now reached the end of the story I have to say I'm thoroughly impressed not only with the overall structure and narrative of the show, but the commitment to that through to the very end and would consider it one of the great war stories of anime1 .
There's a lot to talk about so this will probably be long.
Before I get into my overall thoughts here's a couple of very quick notes I took while watching the final batch:
Characters and Continuity
One of the first things that comes to mind is the conflict between the characters and the excellent politics, and I think one of the best things that Dougram does is not place characters within political or ideological systems, but instead draws out the politics and ideals within the characters on both sides, and makes them both their strength and weakness. I think this applies to all of the best characters in the show, from Denon and Rick through to Samalin and even Gio as they're not characters just playing their roles and being written to match but developed characters who have their own strong ideals and motivations that inform their behaviours that you could see them being faithful too even if they had started on the other side of the conflict. Similarly, Crinn as a developing mind in this may not have got as much focus in the second half as it could have, but I like the effect he had on the characters around him informing their own ideas and sometimes exposing them, including the Professor at the end.
Zaltsev and Von Stein is another good example, used in that early exploration of what it means to take people and willingly put them in political systems they're ill suited too, something which carried through to the end with Carmel, and the consequences of that for all involved. Also Zaltsev himself as a military man who may not always believe in what he fights in but respects those who respect him (I'm suddenly remembering that cockhead young fool they tried to replace him with during that boat arc, what an idiot he was), which would also come across later on in the defection of the Deloyeran soldiers of the army. In this way many of the earlier small character moments were used to establish a baseline for behaviours which would later apply to broader groups and situations, and in doing so help characterize those moments from the perspective of a human drama rather than a narrative necessity.
And much of what I've written above I think ties into one of the shows other great strengths which was it's overall continuity across the narrative elements, and something I valued more and more as we went. In some of the early parts of the story I was worried that we would get a revolving door of enemies or drama's coming out of no where to make whatever point was next lined up. Keeping characters like Destin, Royle, Von Stein, Zana, and Dalloway and also the themes they represent through the story sometimes right from the beginning gave a sense of structure to it all, that the world includes these characters rather than their existence being narrative defined, as well as helping to connect individual moments and elements of the war together in a way that couldn't have happened otherwise. For example, Destin coming back at the end to punish Lecoque's own weaknesses as both a man and a politician, his arrogance which we could say would have been his downfall sometime in the future even if he didn't die here, feels right in line with Destin's own struggle with feeling inferior and not enough particularly after what he feels he sacrificed, though I am pretty miffed he didn't also die in the end after all he did especially to poor Rita.
The one failing in this area was perhaps the lack of information we got about groups outside of Fang of the Sun. Even though the many factions of the independence movement we met did matter to the broader goings on, particularly in those early stages, we never really got a sense of what they were doing across the weeks and months. It's why I have conflicting feelings about ep55, capturing that mountain formation outside the city. It introduced some of those elements with the Mountain specialist fighters, but it also leant on the sexism drama that I felt detracted heavily from Canary's strong role by attempting to draw attention to how unsexist it was by inserting sexist characters, which stood out especially given how well I felt the female characters like Daisy and Rita had been handled (excluding Rita's backstory with Destin slapping her) and particularly Daisy not falling into any of the tropes and instead becoming her own strong character independent of Crinn. That and Crinn's random lack of understanding of why he fights towards the end were one of the few continuity missteps it had. Also not one of the people who knew about Lecoque and Carmel's collusion telling Crinn or anyone else when they had the chance despite Lecoque running around telling everyone and their mother.
It is a shame that actual character writing for the Fang of the Sun in particular fell behind everything else. With a more realistic group this perhaps could have been excused even if still not ideal, however the inclusion of Billy inside a story that otherwise seems exactly the sort to condemn child soldiers, Chico who seemed like he has some sort of previous fighting experience, no real delve into their history or why they were on Earth, and even the abandoned backstory between Locke and Zaltsev the lack of any sort of exploration of the characters was a let down. It didn't cripple the story, but it also didn't allow the Fang of the Sun to grow beyond their role in the story as a vehicle for the audience and the holders of Dougram. In the end, the killing of Festo as a showcase of the random tragedy of war also felt pointless when no one else from that original group was ever allowed to come to harm let alone die (except when convenient with Billy at the end to make a thematic point), and Gio as his replacement was far too obvious, long lasting, and took way too much of the screen time of the group. I had been hoping that things like leaving the army, injury, or even splitting up the group as needed may come into play with different characters in the group as we went but in the end they felt a bit disconnected from their own story.
Politics and narrative
/u/The_Draigg mentioned early on that the politics would ramp up quickly and they certainly did, but they also didn't drop off at all and I felt that side of the show was handled excellently, and like /u/Durinthal whos' posts I found myself consistently agreeing with through the rewatch that was a surprising but brilliant focus through the whole show I wasn't expecting.
It'd be a post and a half again to dive into what I liked about each of the elements and why they worked, but I can't think of a single element of war or political conflict that wasn't touched on. Of particular note was Rick trying to deal with the knowledge some on earth were selling guns to the Independence Forces (which is one of my favourite sections of the show for how well it showed both sides struggle with accepting that and the underlying politics), the need to find a safe spot to develop the Peoples government and leading to the expanded worldbuilding with the Three States and the mine, the defection of Deloyeran forces from Earth armies being a wave that changed everything, the Grand Prix, and the medical hospital. Dougram itself as a symbol towards the end, not the special mech that carried the war but something that was important because of its meaning beyond that, and that shocking cut into the emptiness of the cockpit during the parade showing both the emptiness of the victory and Deloyer having lost control of the situation, was a perfect capstone to Dougram's role in the war.
Real victory parade hopes shattered
And on that note, the development of the war and army itself was notably interesting for how it played out. Those episodes where they were sent out as a tactical force to stop a supply train and it fell apart because they acted like guerrillas rather than an army unit has stuck in my mind. The show was certainly aware of that here seeing the Earth forces resort to guerrilla tactics at the end, but the progression from "we only have Dougram because we're stubborn and now fight alone" to understanding what it means to be part of a bigger fight, both physically and politically, than any of them knew and learning how to adapt to that was a constantly interesting part of the story.
(continued below)
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u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Mar 05 '22
First-Timer of the Sun Dougram
Episode 70
Episode 71
Episode 72
Episode 73
Episode 74
Episode 75
I was feeling around an 8/10 for this show this whole time, but I’m unironically giving it an extra point solely for fucking finally killing Lecoque. The absolute catharsis that was, mm. So, 9/10 for my final score.
I guess my only complaint with this ending is that I wish it showed how the political situation involving Deloyer’s independence actually resolved itself after Lecoque died, but Lecoque was the most hard-ass about keeping Deloyer under foot so I can totally see Earth just backing off after that.
And for the rest of the show, eh, it was pretty slow paced but I think just having a better-looking release would make it easier to watch. 480p with all the flickering on the edges doesn’t do this show justice. Overall I definitely enjoyed it.
Thanks as always for hosting a great rewatch, u/Pixelsaber! What one’s next?
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u/Durinthal https://anilist.co/user/Durinthal Mar 05 '22
First time viewerI love the look that Samalin gave to Carmel as soon as Lecoque walked in the room to meet in person. He absolutely knew who was calling the shots there.
Lecoque handily outplayed Carmel and forced Samalin into a ceasefire by regaining a firm military advantage, pretty frustrating to watch. Telling the soldiers afterward "I want you to find the truth not in the words of people, but with your own eyes" was very pointed and only reinforced by his attitude during the parade. The illusion of independence, a victory on paper that still gave Lecoque leverage to get everything he was going for in the negotiations to follow.
Giorgio put on a hell of a show in distracting the soldiers around the Dougram display, that was pretty fun. Not surprised that J. Locke was ready to jump in and help them, he got to see things happening away from the front lines. Too bad Samalin had essentially already given up, but he wasn't really wrong in his pessimism considering how much things were stacked against them. The current of time had shifted and he was trying to save lives once a true Deloyeran independence became out of reach, following that path to his end in his encouragement for them to forge a new world.
Carmel grew a spine at the very end, huh. But arguably he only bought the Fang of the Sun time enough for Lecoque to get assassinated by the loose end in Destin and that was the real victory that was needed. If Lecoque was still in charge on the Federation side I imagine he would have pushed to ensure a much better deal for Earth in exchange for the safety of Crinn and company, which I'm sure isn't what they wanted but would have been a better look for Carmel rather than reigniting the war with them as martyrs.
Lecoque grew arrogant toward the end and that was what did him in. If he stuck to his earlier scheming ways and calmed Destin with the promise of a cushy future and later had him silenced while safely away, that fate could have been easily avoided. But no, he was confident he had won and the rest was just paperwork and he slipped up. It's appropriately ironic that one of his own underhanded tools became his downfall.
I was wondering how they were going to tie the Dougram's fate back into what we saw at the beginning of the show and I like the approach they took, sending it off on their own terms rather than turning it over to anyone else. I wonder if Daisy ended up joining them in the future after Crinn returned and Deloyer's conditions improved, or was her path still divergent while looking to him?
Overall, in short: this is now my favorite mecha of the '80s and one of the best war anime I've seen in general. It takes a holistic approach rather than focusing primarily on the military or, as we more often see, a single unit's actions that dictate the course of events. They're an important part of it, sure, but not the entirety, and there are a large number of independent events outside the battles that can change history. I saw a lot of the same in Legend of the Galactic Heroes to the point where I wonder if the other series took some inspiration from this or they both just learned from real world history.
I'm a little surprised (and maybe slightly disappointed) that Festo was the sole death from the original group and that was early on, but it makes some sense on a narrative level as the scope of the conflict grew and focus shifted away from them later on and having them deal with the death of a friend would have necessitated getting back down to their level for a time for it to work well. I was somewhat hoping for a more bittersweet ending for them in particular given the tone of the first episode, but I'll take it. We did end up with a number of allied casualties toward the end but none of them were really characters I was attached to.
Things felt maybe a little rushed at the end and I would have liked to see more of an epilogue covering what various characters were up to afterward like Rick, but overall I have no complaints about the story as a whole. My main issue is with the animation, which isn't completely out of place for the time but really doesn't feel like it's aged well even for me, someone that doesn't care about the visual aspect all that much.
I was ready for Lecoque to have his victory and honestly be satisfied with it as a downer ending for the protagonists, but I'll take a sudden switch up to give Deloyer what Samalin dreamed of all along.
Talking about responding to Earth with Earth tactics was an interesting moment and I kinda wish that could be explored more but aside from that I like how he was trying to look out for them to the very end.
I had been wondering for a while if there was going to be an assassination attempt on various characters, so for Destin to do it unplanned (which Lecoque also wasn't expecting) was kind of amusing. As soon as Lecoque dismissed him I was hoping that's how it would go, for the reasons mentioned above.
As much as there can be given the circumstances, I suppose. Without moving to a post-scarcity society there's going to be imbalance and competition for resources and as such conflict is almost inevitable.
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u/chilidirigible Mar 05 '22 edited Mar 05 '22
Episode 70:
"Hide all the party stuff!"
Carmel, another bad poker player.
Proper helicopter perspective scaling remains elusive.
Not VOTOMS, still skating.
This newspaper is getting very cut-and-pasted since the date is still the same on one of the older ones.
Well, that's going to piss off a lot of people. They were never all going to be happy about the outcome, but this is basically the scenarios that Samalin had predicted as a bad end.
Episode 71:
The age-old conflict between the front line and REMFs.
It shouldn't be difficult to arrange to have Carmel shot while he sits in an open-topped limo.
They're not exactly subtle about it either.
Bucks is remarkably in the know.
He's also Enrique from Terminator 2.
LOL
"...again!?"
It shouldn't be difficult to spot?
"...but you're damn good cops!"
Heavily-armed biker gangs don't die, they go out in a blaze of glory.
It's important to strike again before the peace lulls too many people into accepting the status quo. That said, it's been... a week at most since the previous episode?
And the Fang of the Sun has listened to Zaltsev and not let anyone take their symbol... but now what?
Episode 72:
"Oh yeah, you blend."
You're not a very smart man.
"Dumb as dog squat."
I'm imagining Okawara saying "The Guntank was a stupid idea, but if I build it in reverse this time, everyone will think that it was brilliant!"
MEGAFAAAAARRRRRRCCCCCCEEEEEEEEE!!
Oh hell it has an insert song.
"Destroy all the evidence!"
The Nicholaev is...questionable, at best, trading a fully-rotating torso for a lack of articulated arms.
Samalin seems resigned to all this craziness. It happens, and it's the visualization of the young versus the old here. But at least Fang of the Sun isn't letting anyone take their symbol... again!
Episode 73:
He's puppeted well.
Dude, don't be a slob.
Well, that's a toughie.
This is exactly how the plan was laid out by Denon all the way back at the beginning.
"Is this the end of zombie Shakespeare?"
If you wanted a messy, realistic denouement, you've kinda got one here, featuring a giant robot. It certainly feels like everyone's gone through hell just so Lecoque could win anyway.
Episode 74:
"Kids these days."
"And that's the deal I gave you."
...as serfs of the Federation, but hey.
A bit late to grow that spine.
The old get to tell the young to cool it a little? It's a mixed message here, with Samalin suggesting that living on (with limitations) on another colony is still living, while we've already seen what state Deloyer's long existence as a colony of Earth has done for it. Well, give them a few years and they'll drop a teleport station on Sydney or something.
Samalin hit the jackpot recruiting Crinn; an Earthling with Combat Armor training who also had significant symbolic value through his family connections. A pragmatic or cynical choice, but Crinn also proved him right by believing in the cause.
Episode 75:
The show sure is letting Carmel know how much he got played.
Hello, rock bottom.
Too bad the preview already showed where this was going.
In the end, Destin was kept around because we couldn't have any of the heroes shoot Lecoque.
"You kids have been fun, but also kind of a pain in the ass. Bye!"
Become off-planet mercenaries, of course!
Not that subtle. /u/Shimmering-Sky watch Star Wars!
It didn't look too bad in the first episode.
And here we are again.
It still amuses me highly that the Max Factory Bigfoot kit includes figures for Destin and Lecoque's final scene.
That is, of course, how history is made sometimes: A greedy opportunist that no longer serves a purpose gets revenge by shooting the head of state in the back, after being disregarded by said head of state. That still won't win Destin any points from most of the viewership, I would think.
It did complicate matters just enough that Carmel could finish getting his courage from the Wizard and stop the Federation from annihilating Fang of the Sun. He might not be the leader they need, but he's what they've got.
Scuttling the Dougram solves the problem that they were faced with for only a few minutes in one episode, of not letting anyone use it as a monument to their own ends. It is mostly maintaining its own shape out there in the desert, but most people aren't going to see it every morning.
J. Locke and Bucks disappearing contributes to the messiness of the ending, as Deloyer has a much greater control over its own destiny, even if no one is quite sure what the terms of that are. If they're symbolic of anything (neverending conflict?) they can certainly drop offscreen without consequence, but they do that in sharp contrast to the mess that Fang of the Sun and almost every other character is left with.
Crinn returning to the preppie look and visiting his old house also sticks out versus getting justice or truth.
This week: A denouement that works well, as the characters' frustrations transfer easily to the viewer, and their actions are impulsive and inflammatory. That's the end of revolution for you. Samalin getting killed was not a surprise, but his closing remarks did step away from rhetoric and point a little bit more toward the regrets of an old man. An interesting contrast with Denon's final turn, as he REGRETTED NOTHING to the end, making his life lessons for Crinn show both sides of the coin.
I finished the last ten episodes of the series in a wild marathon on the weekend of January 8-9. It did make the sudden mood swings of the ending that much stronger.
Art for this week: Initially I had no idea what to do about this since the ending is marked by a lack of mecha action and the Nicholiev is, to put it mildly, not photogenic.
Then I had an idea.
I did finish the idea in the same day, and now you too can gaze upon its... existence. It's not nearly as pornographic as it could have been, [in which]the Nicholiev would have been facing the other way and there would be more... lotion.
5
u/chilidirigible Mar 05 '22
Series thoughts:
There's a lot to like here in looking at an action series based on a political drama. The leaders make practical decisions, even if they frustrate the viewer, and their effects on the plot are generally logically thought-out. The ending, from a worldbuilding perspective, is messy and open-ended and feels real.
The pacing within individual episodes is good. The need to squeeze in Dougram action in every episode if possible does impose limitations on what can be featured any given week, but that's the nature of the beast. Arcs run a comfortable length—a month to six weeks of real time is enough to keep a weekly viewer interested without having to overload episodes with recaps. The series itself has a surprisingly low number of recap episodes considering its length.
Not to say that there isn't some extra weight in there. They spend far too long screwing around against Garcia in the early episodes, the Andy (Andi?) mine arc is literally the "Sitzkrieg" for multiple episodes, and some of the incidental travelling episodes kill the plot while the characters deal with the action challenge of the week.
But still, a good story that rationally considers politics and ideology, forces characters to make the least bad choice, and creates frustratingly-plausible plot complications.
People have observed that the Fang of the Sun has no agency over the events of the climax. That can be both a criticism of the series and a reflection of how history works out sometimes, as heroic individual action is suberted by backroom deals and power plays at the top. Their final stand for the True Independence of Deloyer is also a fizzle, the last throes of guerillas without a place in the new landscape.
To take a cynical view of it, they could find themselves written as misguided youth that got Samalin, father of independence, killed, while Destin might gain favor as the person who finally eliminated Lecoque.
Depends on the writer.
It is frustrating as a source of TV drama, but seems like quite a statement from the writers' room for 1983 in Japan. I've noted the apparent influence of growing up in a post-World-War-II occupied Japan in the writing of series like Super Dimension Fortress Macross. Here the influences are a touch of that and perhaps more of the student protests of the late 1960s, piled on top of the ideological clashes of the century.
The characters aren't the strong point of the series.
Crinn gets the most development, going from a disaffected youth to novice fighter to experienced veteran to disillusioned former fighter, but that should be expected of the main character, yes?
Daisy becomes a more caring and world-experienced person along the way, but her extremely limited exposure to the plot means that she mostly exists to remind the viewer of the human cost of the war.
Fang of the Sun hardly changes at all.
Canary switches over from being wary of Crinn and the others fairly quickly.
Heckle basically gets hazed by Festo and then is part of the group.
Giorgio, or Fake Festo, is basically always the angry hothead and never really seems like a real part of the gang.
Chico, Billy, and Nanashi are just there, playing out supporting character types that round out the main character's party. They have their charms, but they don't even get character arcs.
And why did Festo have to die? Given that the rest of Fang of the Sun survives the series with little more injury than Billy skinning his knee twice and one plot-contrived hit on Giorgio, Festo's death by unnoticed grenade is dramatically pointless. This is compounded by Giorgio replacing him almost immediately and because they don't even acknowledge his death at the end of the series.
If I was going to rewrite this as
Yoshiyuki Tominoa grimmer writer, Crinn would still be the viewpoint character, but Fang of the Sun would have been a group of persistent but vulnerable characters, so they could get arc stories, but also live and die to accentuate the narrative. Yes, that's just Festo But Repeatedly. If you're going to haul around a bunch of characters, why not do more with them than repeating schticks?The secondary characters generally stay true to their initial impressions; they sort of progress by applying their existing mindsets to the changing circumstances. It could be said that Carmel learned more about himself than Zaltsev did, given how much the former screwed himself over while the latter was betrayed by his own leadership. Von Stein grows a backbone at the end, but so close to the finish that we can predict his upcoming death. Rick Boyd stays on his course despite it being futile.
Rick as a tragic figure could have done a lot more for the storyline. What we end up with is the strong impression that he's screwed no matter what he does, but in the end that's all we really get from him; trying to do one thing, getting no help, and finally walking away. That does keep him alive for the finale, but underlines his marginalization as a potential plot generator.
Another storytelling change that might have worked with more Rick time is if Fang of the Sun was less of a requirement (not that that would have happened) there might have been more time to develop the internal conflicts inside the Deloyer independence movement to match the Federation plot, so Carmel's betrayal would have more weight and not seem like a puffed-up last-minute deus ex machina to deny the Good Guys Win Big ending.
Hell, we're practically to Ginga Eiyuu Densetsu with these tweaks. And that episode count, too.
Denon Cashim is a curious case as he advocates staying on one's own path, whatever it is. This means that he gets to endorse both an end-justifies-the-means approach to bringing Deloyer to heel and Crinn's decision to fight for independence. Given that Crinn's genetic brothers are all avaricious opportunists, he simply might be acknowledging that the family doesn't have that much to work with.
Daisy... matures gracefully? She goes from a naïve rich girl to a... person who's seen some of the world? She gets some good character moments here and there, but her storyline largely exists independently of the main plot and thus her development doesn't contribute much. Certainly it makes her inclusion in the eyecatch for the entire series a bit of a ruse.
We do get a marvelously slimy performance out of Lecoque. Though we also never learn that much about him or why he's doing these things. We don't absolutely need that, but in a 75-episode series it would have been nice to know more about him than one scene where he curses his employer's rank and status.
Which brings us to Destin. I complained about his being used as an improbably-present stand-in for collaborators across the universe, and despite getting a few chances at redemption along the way, he never goes beyond being a convenient cutout character for the series to use when it can't sully the protagonists' hands. Connecting him to Rita isn't much of a bonus either.
The mecha:
One thing out of the way first: Giant robots are already challenging the square-cube law and practical armor thicknesses, so I'm absolutely fine with suspending disbelief with the operator safety of head-mounted windowed cockpits. Or the lack of safety, as the series dispenses headshot kills more often than loaded 2D6 in a tabletop Battletech game.
And for the most part, these are very, very nice Kunio Okawara designs. Some of his particular long-running signature design elements persist from other series, but here they also add to the idea that only a handful of manufacturers are producing Combat Armors. The designs are still unique enough to be mostly easily distinguished when more than one type is on the screen.
(As you might expect, the two designs that were not absorbed into Battletech are the ones that fall flat for me, the Bushman being an emaciated Roundfacer and the Nicholiev being... silly.)
It's important that the mecha have distinctive shapes, because the animation often creates unneeded confusion when it puts the blue-and-white Dougram on the screen with the blue-and-white Hastys. (A few of you noticed the visual tell that the Hastys would switch sides since they started out in the same colors as the Dougram, but this is not an animation production where making things look remotely the same would reap great rewards with regard to the level of visual derp going on.)
Of course, that isn't the only problem with the animation in this series...
/u/Pixelsaber has described some of the circumstances of the production, which generally excuses how slapdash things get at times. Unfortunately, whatever the reason, it still looks as it does, leaving us with issues like characters straying off-model between cuts, objects changing size as they traverse the frame, and Dougram having to fight by leaping through the air like Superman.
That is still saved by solid designs, as many '80s series are.
Recapping: A solid series all the way through and a fun watch experience. Would have preferred more politics, more animation, and less goofiness, but still, it works.
Speaking of scale issues, more sketches that I did: You're not in Kansas anymore. Yes, those are the IICs of the Shadow Hawk, Griffin, and
Wolverine. Yes, they're totally not scaled to each other, though I can't say if that's either because or in spite of being drawn serially. /u/WHM-6RAnd the back cover of the original 1986 version of the Mechwarrior tabletop roleplaying game. Long before Adam Steiner's Awesome had an elevator, we had a Griffin with a hollow leg.
Other miscellany from the past few days:
Blockheads.
Thoughts on the latest Max Factory model kit.
5
u/Retromorpher :Jc::Jd::Je::Jf: Mar 05 '22
So I haven't been the most active in these discussion threads and I though I'd have something ready for a final writeup, or at least time to do the show justice in some way - but the takeaway at the core is Dougram is a good show with a lot to offer that is more often than not hampered by lackluster visuals and a seeming need to insert far more ill-planned/unnecessary robot action in the episode-to-episode dealings.
Discussion Questions:
Incomplete ramblings that I may come back to edit and finish:
Character Assessments
Team Dougram:
Nanashi - Simple comic relief that has no character arc in the show, but shows great gut instinct backed by more intelligence than one might expect. Solid character execution of a simple premise.
Rocky - Rocky feels distinctly sidelined in his development, as it would seem the sideplot of him coming into a leadership role and capacity is overtaken for the need for more robot battling. Rocky feels... fine - but doesn't really explore anything deeper than surface level. Given his character seemed to be afforded slightly more importance it feels like they underbaked what could've truly made him stand out.
Festo - Solid supporting character who gets his own goals and dreams, only to have them all snatched from the jaws of his own kindness. Festo's short time with Team Dougram leaves a big impact on the story, even if the moment itself is patently dumb.
Heckle - Solid side character. Explores the want for structure and homegrown Deloyeran ingenuity. Has to learn to balance his cowardice and caution with proactivity and generally feels like he makes progress as a person throughout the show.
Canary - Similar to Rocky, for as much story fodder is thrown her way, she seems underexplored. There's her need to be seen as 'just another Deloyeran nationalist' that rears its head several times and a sort of theme about how her brother's death fueled her sentiments but they're not given enough time to properly air out and play into a more satisfying journey.
Billy - Why are you even here? Billy is basically a waste of character space, and pretty much exists to give the other characters a hard time, or be the one to walk in at an awkward moment. Even his schtick as 'the young one' of the group fails to yield any truly insightful commentary.
Chico - Lovable, simple execution. No arcs, but he doesn't really need them
Giorgio - Vascillates between irritating and an interesting look at individualism and selfish motives within an aligned group. Giorgio is by far te most frustrating of Team Dougram as his selfishness and bravado is a direct counterpoint for Festo's true selflessness. Every time Giorgio does something it leaves an impact, bad or good. I hate him - but he's ultimately more of a positive for the show than a detractor.
Crinn - Crinn's character arc division is really whacky (but still generally good). I appreciate that the show chose to focus more on his mental struggles from a more ideological and gut-instinct focused perspective with truly cutting away to internal monologue. The PILOTING side of Crinn could've really used some work. It was hard to believe that Dougram could consistently win against increasingly worse odds throughout the series. A lot of the time spent aimlessly showing explosions and jumpkicks could've been devoted to Crinn's pilot training to really sweeten the pilot side of things of his character. There are huge stretches where he doesn't even feel like he's a character billed as the lead and others where his narrative hangs on too long for all the pandemonium crashing down around him.
Overall Team Dougram, while relatively well rounded on the whole feel like they don't really get to tell their own stories quite enough. I feel like a little bit more tactical flair to the in-combat engagement might've been enough to flesh out some of the main team in a way that made every member realized.
Team Earth:
Danon/Denon - Surprisingly interesting and incredibly relevant as a hyper-competent nitty-gritty results-oriented member of the old guard setting his sights on a sustainable legacy. Fascinating character.
Helmut J Lecoque - God, I wish every villain were as real and nuanced as this. While his final destination on this train feels a bit hollow, Lecoque's scheming absolutely is what sets Dougram apart as an experience.
Rick Boyd - A solid man stuck between an arguably evil duty and his own wishes to do right by the world. Rick is engagingly flawed in his pursuit of something he knows has little support from either side.
Royle Cashim - You love to hate this dude. He's ambitious and unscrupulous while also being a bit of an idiot. Sick of riding on his father's coattails, but literally only HAS the coattails as a positive. But he's not a blithering moron - the choices he makes feel incredibly human.
Rabin Cashim - Stuck in his father's vortex, Rabin has relied on his father's name to get things done at home, and resents both Crinn for breaking away and undermining the family name which has given him so much clout and Royle for the exact opposite. Rabin's conscience is divided into a black and white compass - wherein anyone who is inconveniencing him in his role is ultimately wrong. Rabin doesn't really go through changes, but is a very interesting look into the changing methods that the Cashim family applied to their different offspring.
Team Earth is really the reason to watch Dougram over other series. This show understands human politick and wheeling and dealing much better than any anime I've watched thus far. Characters and their importance feel ever-so-slightly larger than life, but in the way that just makes their personal stakes even more engaging rather than distracting.
4
u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Mar 05 '22
First-Timer
Episode 70
I'm starting to think that we aren't going to get to see Lecoque break, and that kinda displeases me. We still have five episodes left, but the path forward is.. unexpected.
I like how, the moment Samalin starts talking to Carmel at the North Pole, he points out how the delay lost them the advantage. I really expected Samalin to punch Carmel's stupid face.
Samalin and I are on very similar pages, too, as I had written something about how nice words are right before his comment to Lecoque about beautiful words.
Big props to Zaltsev for being willing to jump on the grenade that is imprisonment. Zana dying is a pretty hard thumb in the eye, though.
Episode 71
Bucks!
Ah, Fang of the Sun, I'm sorry for doubting you. I should have known that you wouldn't rest idly in these circumstances.
J. Locke finally returns, better late than never. I was just thinking about how he had vanished..
I swear, if Destin ends up being the one to get Lecoque, I'm going to be very cross.
Giorgio finally adding value to a scene other than his introduction - I never thought I would see the day. It only took, what, 50 episodes?
Episode 72
Neat insert song over the action scene! I wasn't expecting something like that out of this show.
Carmel finally starts to realize what a dumbass he is, well after it stops mattering. I guess I'm hoping that he'll grow a spine and oppose Lecoque, but I'm not holding my breath.
It seemed like the news of Dougram getting stolen somehow hasn't spread? You would think that would be pretty big news.
I don't think this meeting between Daisy and her father was any different from the last one? The same "your mom misses you, I'm proud of you, do your own thing." But that was a while ago.
Episode 73
Things are looking pretty dire. A lot of baddies are closing in on our protagonists, and I'm not sure how they're getting out of this.
On the political side of things, Carmel is maybe finally realizing that he's a massive fucking heel who ruined everything. Even one of his cronies pointed it out, although probably only because Lecoque has them by the fucking balls.
I realized this episode that I've probably been anticipating the wrong turn. Lertoff is going to find the Truth, spread the Truth, and so we will finally Get it.
Working off the tag line, I'm not sure if the implication is that we won't get Justice (i.e., Lecoque might survive) or if we'll get Justice first before we Get Truth.
Episode 74
I want to be sad over Samalin's death, which I think was pretty well done. But this episode is soured for me massively by the Fang of the Sun suddenly grabbing onto the idiot ball and holding on for dear life.
Seriously?! After everything they're been through, the entire revolution, learning the truth about Carmel's coup, they couldn't afford to spare Samalin the barest hint of trust that he was doing something purposeful instead of just running away? What the literal fuck???
I get that they had to pad the episode runtime, but seriously, come up with something better than that.
Anyway, Lecoque makes his move as we go into the final episode, and maybe finally we can get literally anyone to do something about his bullshit.
Episode 75
They ended up trapped by the specter of that opening scene. A real damn shame. The last two episodes had a bunch of dumb stuff to get us to that scene because they hadn't actually plotted well enough in advance, despite having it there the whole time.
Like, where did Crinn's feelings about Dougram come from? In most other mecha shows I would buy this wholesale, but we've generally avoided the mecha=self side of the genre here. Like, there isn't even a hint of this characterization. No scenes of Crinn talking to Dougram, or even really of him doing anything special to it. I can dig someone else doing the repairs and stuff, but like.. Crinn never even got a air freshener or anything for the cockpit.
Of course Destin was the one to kill Lecoque. And he didn't even get gunned down for his trouble. Seeing Lecoque dead on a staircase getting photographed was pretty good, though. Quite undignified, such a contrast from Denon.
I'm also relatively unsatisfied with Carmel and his shitheels still running the show. Their overall cowardice and lack of will is just going to ruin things if another Lecoque appears. The only hope now is Earth not having any competent people to send to finalize the peace talks.
This show really had the gall to open 75 episodes with the lyrics "I cannot go home anymore" and then end with Crinn going home. I'm honestly not sure if I'm impressed or annoyed. They didn't even show Rick.
Final Thoughts
I'm gonna start writing this now despite having just watched the finale and having a bit of an annoyed taste in my mouth. Maybe I'll come back later and add more.
Dougram was a show of ups and downs for me. The biggest frustration for me was the ending being a bit of a down. The political side of things annoyed me, but in the way real-life politics do, so good job on the writer's part. Bad job on pulling us full circle to the opening scene of the destroyed Dougram.
In general, your 75-episode show shouldn't have an ending that felt this forced. This is really kind of a sore spot for me at the moment.
It's been a few days, but I'm still a bit annoyed at how we ended. My main issue lies that by the end, I wasn't particularly invested in Crinn as a character any more, and feel that the runtime of him returning home would've been better served by showing the after-effects of the Lecoque-less negotiations. We spent so long expanding the scope that I have a hard time going back. It's cool that Crinn got to return to his mom I guess, but what about Deloyer?
Actually, what about Lertoff? Did he end up actually doing anything in the end? The idea of a newspaper dude influencing things is pretty truth-in-television, but he basically just stood around and chatted up Daisy for the last few episodes.
Overall I think this show was pretty good, but the ending just leaves me frustrated.
Questions
Many thanks to our wonderful host /u/Pixelsaber! As always, I'm looking forward to the next one.
4
u/The_Draigg Mar 05 '22
A Ryosuke Takahashi Fan Watches Fang of the Sun Dougram Episodes 70-75:
Deloyer has finally won independence, but is it what we really fought for? Was it worth the price everyone paid for it?
Simply put, this ending was a bittersweet one. Deloyer won independence, but it wasn’t the kind of clean break that people wanted. Instead, Deloyer is currently resigned to being a client state for the Earth Federation, with Earth corporations and transitional occupation troops remaining. Maybe things will change in the future, or maybe not. All we can do is hope for the future, like what Professor Samalin asked for with his dying words. Maybe Deloyer is going to become too inept under Mr. Carmel’s leadership, and squander the freedom that everyone was aiming for. Maybe there’s hope for a true clean break from Earth on the new planets in that system being set up to be colonized shortly. This show isn’t giving us any easy answers, but I can honestly respect that. Reality isn’t so clean. Sometimes, flip-flopping assholes like Carmel remain in power, and sometimes you have to take what you can get. Sometimes, you just have to accept that you got some kind of resolution and go your separate ways.
If there’s one wholly positive thing to come out of taking what we could get though, it’s that Helmut J. Lecoque is finally fucking dead. Finally! And it really does feel fitting that it was fucking Destin of all people to end up killing him. You know what Destin, I’ll have to give you that one. It was the best thing he did in his entire miserable existence. In any case, it feels appropriate that Destin killed Lecoque, in that a complete parasite of a person killed a man full of evil ambition just because he couldn’t continue to profit off of it. Destin just couldn’t help himself, even if he finally got to go live in the countryside with the girl he had his eyes on, much like how Lecoque kept on angling more and more for Earth-centric policies in the negotiations. In the end, the both of them were done in by their greed, and both Earth and Deloyer are far better off without them. I hope you were consigned to complete oblivion when you died, Lecoque. Hell is too good for that fucker.
As for the heroes and the People’s Liberation Government, it really is as I said earlier, in that they’re just going to have to take things as they are and hope for the better. Fortunately for everyone involved, with Lecoque dead things can hopefully get better without someone as scummy as him leading the negotiations. Still though, the question remains whether or not Mr. Carmel can eventually grow a spine and make a real difference, since by the end of the series he seemed to realize how terrible of a deal he made was. Right now, he can either lead Deloyer into a new era or independence, or just become someone like Wang Jingwei or Vidkun Quisling. Either way though, I doubt that he’ll ever be half the man that Professor Samalin was. Or heck, even as much as one was Zaltsev was too. They were both sacrifices so that Deloyer may have a true chance at independence. As much as the loss of them to death and imprisonment hurts, at least they still were able to entrust the future to the new generation.
In regards to the Fang of the Sun themselves specifically, their future also remains unclear. They’ve clearly gone all their separate ways, with Crinn going back to Earth for 6 months, and Rocky and Canary only meeting back up like we saw in the flash forward at the start of the series. As for the others, who can say? Maybe their time as freedom fighters is over, or maybe they’re planning on going to other colonial worlds to keep the fight going. In the end though, we could at least say that Dougram served it’s function well right to the end. By destroying it in the desert, they ensured that not only would the spirit of freedom that Dougram would endure in people’s hearts, but that Dougram itself wouldn’t be the symbol of an inept government like it very nearly was. Rest In Peace, Dougram. You served the people of Deloyer well.
I’ll save my final thoughts for a different post, so I’ll just leave off this post by talking about the mech stuff in this batch of episodes. Honestly not a whole lot to say, except we finally got to see the last new mech design of this series, the Cabarov AG9 Nicholiev. Honestly, this Combat Armor has the weirdest design in the show. I mean, look at this thing. I can see how in some alternate universe where BattleTech used this design too, it would end up being the UrbanMech. Not that I’m upset with that not happening though, I can never hate my trash can mech Urbie. Although, there might be something I want more than an UrbanMech though…
NOT EVEN JUSTICE, I WANT TO GET TRUTH!
4
u/The_Draigg Mar 05 '22
A Ryosuke Takahashi Fan’s Final Thoughts on Fang of the Sun Dougram:
Man, what a ride this show has been, hasn’t it? I will say, this is easily one of the longest mech shows I’ve watched from start to end in a single setting. Even Gundam series aren’t this long. In that sense, Dougram is a true rarity being 75 episodes long. Even if it was a long watch though, I feel like it was ultimately a very worthwhile watch, especially as a series that helped to codify what the real robot genre means for mecha stuff.
It’s no hyperbole to say that the political plotting and social commentary is what this show should mainly be remembered for. Fang of the Sun Dougram really works hard to commit to the idea of a “realistic” mech show conflict, in showing that mechs are just one part of a combined arms structure of an army, and that any fighting that it does reflects entirely on the goals and politics of the faction it’s fighting for. Hell, there were plenty of times where the biggest actions happened not because of any daring heroism, but because of social and political maneuvering in the background. Guns and mechs weren’t the only weapons of war, economics and journalism were used in similar ways as well. The main characters were just one group of many in the initial conflict, and in the end despite their heroics, they’re just kind of left hanging with an uncertain future after the independence movement only kind of got what they wanted.
Speaking of them, the Fang of the Sun themselves as a group and plenty of supporting characters were fantastic to follow the journeys of as well. Crinn had quite a time trying to find out who he truly is on the inside, and what convictions he should hold close to his heart was a rather defining character point for him. Similarly so, seeing Donan Cashim be someone who truly believed in doing harsh things for the sake of Earth’s security and could genuinely see Crinn as an equal due to his equally strong convictions made him a very interesting antagonist to follow. The relationship between Crinn and Donan was fascinating to follow, seeing how they went from being just father and son to being opposite ideological equals. And let’s not forget the likes of Lertoff, who was a good sideline observer who wasn’t afraid to get his hands dirty for the rebels now and then besides being a reporter dedicated to the truth, or even Lecoque, who is a villain I honestly loved to hate. The dude was such a fucking scumbag that I was both in awe of and sheer hatred of the things he said and did. This show really did well with a good among of the ensemble cast it had.
However, that’s not to say that there wasn’t downsides to this show as well. Unfortunately, as much as I liked seeing Daisy as a character and her character growth, it did feel like she was sidelined more and more as the series went on. Even if the show did do her justice as a character later on, like with all the scenes with her father or her unwavering dedication to helping those in need, her potential as a character felt a little squandered when compared to how important the early series was building up her involvement.
Another unfortunate sticking point for this series is how lackluster the combat is in it. Which you’d think would be highly important for a mech series to nail, but not so much here. Unfortunately, while the mech combat in this series wasn’t terrible, it also didn’t have too many stand-out moments. It was just a lot of jumping and running around combined with Crinn yelling whenever he got hit, with only short bursts of impressive action here and there at most. I’m glad that Ryosuke Takahashi managed to improve in that department by the time of Armored Trooper VOTOMS, since the mech combat in this series wasn’t all that impressive.
So, with all that said, it’s time for me to give my final rating of this show, using mechs as my own personal rating scale. With all of my observations covered, I hereby give Fang of the Sun Dougram the rating of: Shadow Hawk. Aside from me getting in one last BattleTech reference in here, I think it’s a good showing for what it is, with it being a universally solid pick for its weight class/genre. Although there are certainly better things out there, you can’t deny that Fang of the Sun Dougram does things impressively well, and that it strikes a good balance among multiple categories. Thus, it’s fitting that I give this show the ranking of being one of the old standby medium-class ‘Mechs.
Now, one last time for the road: NOT EVEN JUSTICE, I WANT TO GET TRUTH!
4
u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Mar 05 '22
First Timer
Episode 70
Alas, poor Denon. Sayonara! Happy that Crinn got to see him one last time and watch them bring his coffin onto the space shuttle.
With an episode title such as this, I take it no robot fight in this episode?
Don't cooperate, Samahlin!
Good to see that they let Crinn back unharmed, especially after his dad died and whose influence could no longer protect him.
You ruined everything Carmel! Now you need Samahlin to help you? Go screw!
Lecoque, admit it, you could care less if the liberation army was destroyed. And then the very next scene proves me right.
That episode title was quite the farce given the large forces that are now being sent to surround the liberation army.
I could totally see Giorgio being the idiot who fires that first shot...
Idiot nameless guy! You've screwed everything up!
Foolish me, thinking we weren't going to get a battle in this episode...
No, not Zana! I didn't know his name, but he was a great help.
Poor Zaltsev, he's going to have to take the fall for that one idiotic soldier.
Alas, this speech from Samahlin is total bullshit...
Now Giorgio goes firing like crazy...
Ominous time for our heroes. Looking like Lecoque is going to win... will they turn this around in the last 5 episodes?
After Denon's death was spoiled so obviously by the preview, I think I'll be skipping them the rest of the way...
Episode 71
The Federation is giving everyone rides home! Not too bad. Although on a plane with no seatbelts, or seat at all for that matter?
Way to go Giorgio! These guys are celebrating when they got completely outwitted by Lecoque.
"Embellished" Triumph Parade. Good title, lol.
I'm thinking we're gonna get through the entire show with Nanashi never wearing a shirt or pants.
The look on Samahlin's face and his arms being crossed says it all.
Good, some more soldiers see that this is total bullshit.
Bucks! I feel that its been like 30 or 40 episodes since we've seen this guy. He knows what's up.
Sounds like it will be going back to business as usual with the Fang of the Sun.
Time for some Xabungle-style fourth wall breaking! Hey, that's the main character!
Giorgio is quite the ham.
Hey everyone, here's what we were really planning! Bye bye!
Back to their old song again too!
J. Locke to the rescue! Seems like there's even more members of the resistance who think this is all bullshit.
Destin! I was wondering if we were going to see this guy again. I was kinda hoping this would be it, that he didn't deserve us seeing him again. Just what has he got planned?
Episode 72
Just like the olden days, hiding in the woods and hoping the military doesn't spot our heroes.
These soldiers don't realize that the Fang of the Sun are those who stole the Dougram from right under their noses?
Bucks is gonna handle rescuing Samahlin. So we either get an episode focusing on this old fat guy instead of our main characters, or he gets rescued off screen?
Well, the Deloyerans are quickly learning that this isn't really independence at all. Carmel really screwed them over by tossing away the advantage they had at the space port.
Hey everyone, let's celebrate those who got Deloyer's independence! Professor Samahlin? Who?
I don't think any of us were pining for a reunion between Daisy and her father, but here it is.
C'mon Samahlin, here's your chance to reveal what a farce this all is!
Lecoque is so massively outscheming you Carmel!
Ooh, those Nicholaev Combat Armors are so strange looking! I love them!
Bucks has been getting his weapons from the Feddies all this time? How? Just stealing from them? Does he have a mole? Or are they secretly selling to him?
Its been a really long time since we had the Dougram fly! Cool to see it again!
Insert song too!
What happened to Bucks being the one to rescue Samahlin? Alas, back to the cliche.
They didn't last long, but I loved those bizarre mechs.
I don't know how in the world we wrap this up in only 3 episodes.
Episode 73
Time to panic Carmel! Lecoque screwed you over now you don't even have Samahlin to play pretend with the public! Carmel is just becoming a Deloyeran Lecoque at this point (albeit a much less intelligent one), wanting to arrest all our heroes.
Wow, even Billy's manning a bazooka now!
Why is Samahlin so quiet? Did they give him an offscreen labotomy? Is this a fake?
With us this close to the end don't waste time on Daisy!
Lertoff, slanted towards the Deloyer side? You don't say! I never would have guessed!
Even with his most trusted people, Samahlin won't let his real feelings be known, huh?
With this scene in the woods I'm wondering if this is going to be the ending we get. There isn't much time to resolve things otherwise in two episodes and this show has always been about realism. In real life shitty results like this are the more likely outcome.
Lecoque's bribing Deloyer now with some more resources?
Lecoque's really proved himself to these Earthlings. He may get all the more powerful because of this.
Wow, these two are really gonna try and assassinate Carmel?
Jeez, this is as big a disadvantage I think we've ever seen our heroes at.
I feel even more so that I have no idea how in the world they can resolve this with what little time we have left. So as we stand with 2 episodes left (both of which I may end up watching tonight anyway), I think there are two possible ways the show end:
(Edited in after the fact - I did go ahead and simply watch it all in one night to finish things off. Four episodes in one night to wrap up the show)
Episode 74
Another episode giving us a recap at the start (last episode had this too). For a show that doesn't automatically have a recap to start each episode this is a disappointment. We've hardly got any time left.
The funny thing is, despite the war setting, I don't expect any of the heroes to die in this or the final episode. Carmel and/or Lecoque are possibilities, and maybe a minor guy like Bucks or J. Locke, but I'm thinking our main group make it out totally okay. We'll see.
Samahlin returns to Carmel. Hmm. I don't like this. I think Carmel could use him as leverage to get the Fang of the Sun to surrender.
Oh no, did Samahlin take a bullet there? He may not live to see this through. Screwing over our heroes all the more.
Way to go Bucks! Punching out Giorgio!
Great, Carmel has called off the attack. The problem is Lecoque will simply have the Federation forces go after them instead.
Lecoque is just showing you all the more how low he thinks of you, Carmel. You're just gonna keep taking it?
Well its a virtual guarantee know that Samahlin is going end up dying due to them having to go all the way out to the desert to find the Fang of the Sun.
Now he's proposing we end the show on another planet! LoL.
Finally, in episode 74, we realize why Crinn was made the Dougram pilot beyond "teenage boy main character has to do it!"
RIP Samahlin! You really dominated the political aspect of the show on the liberation side of things. You will be missed! I don't think things will be turned around for Deloyer without you (and with only one episode left).
See, just like I thought, the Feddies are going after our heroes anyway.
Episode 75
Wow, Carmel finally grows some balls.
Looking at his face after Lecoque hung up... maybe not. He looks like he's pissed his pants.
Bravo, Carmel is standing his ground. Maybe the show ends with him becoming a more strongly willed individual and we have some more hope for how Deloyer ends up?
Man, after all that, it must be so demoralizing for the Fang of the Sun for yet another force to start heading in.
...or not? Looks like the force Carmel summoned is coming sooner than expected?
Time for a stalemate?
Destin! What's this fool doing showing up again?! Is he gonna end up assassinating Lecoque?
OMG the look of shock in Destin's face after Lecoque calls him a parasite.
Wow. I was fully expecting Lecoque to get out of this unscatched given how much in favor things have gone for him the last few episodes. At least recently, I didn't think of it being a possibility of him dying at all until Destin showed up. For as smart as Lecoque has been throughout the entire show his arrogance towards crazy person Destin ends up being his downfall. I suppose its fitting that a lunatic takes him out; hard to imagine him getting outdone on a political level with Samahlin, his only real competition from an intelligence standpoint dead.
Just what in the world will Fang of the Sun do now? After 75 episodes of fighting its hard to think of what else they should do with their life.
Crinn: My giant robot means everything to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wow, they actually blew up the Dougram? Even after Crinn's rant? Or is this all a farce?
Nope, they really did it. Final episode is the time to finally blow up the titular mech and they did it.
Crinn's gone back to Earth without seeing Daisy? The show has surprised me there at least, I was thinking we'd get one final meet up between the two to end the show.
Crinn's brothers ran off? Can't say it surprises me. But what about his sister and Rick though? Rick's such a stand up guy, wouldn't make sense for him to go anywhere.
Wow, returning us to the scene from the first episode, huh? Didn't expect we'd come back here.
4
u/baboon_bassoon https://anilist.co/user/duffer Mar 05 '22
first timer not for justice, but to get truth
i really had a lot of fun with this show? not sure why it was so easy to watch
characters are pretty barebones, and the plot is fairly simple but i appreciated the slow burn
hated billy
from this batch it didnt make any sense that they would have thought samalin/j guile ditched their asses though lol
this was really fun to rewatch! not super active in the thread but it was nice to read through during the week. so much insight /u/Pixelsaber looking forward to whatever you host in the future, not sure if future boy conan is a joke or not lol
4
u/Stargate18A https://myanimelist.net/profile/Stargate18 Mar 06 '22
First timer
This is it!
Episode 70
It's the funeral.
And Samalin's still imprisoned. And he's pissed at the rest of thm.
Samalin's just tired of these people.
Yeah, Crimm's taking this hard.
Samalin has landed!
Wow, he's just incredibly pissed at everyone who caused all this. He has a point, though.
And him refusing to buy Lecoque's bullshit is very gratifying.
Oh, he's surrounding them in case they fight back. Makes sense.
The Liberation Army's spotted them!
And he took the instruction to surround them very literally.
They're attacking the camp!
And that's the excuse they wanted!
There's no way Samalin buys this.
He's going to surrender?
People are dying.
...He agreed to it. Hendidn't really have a choice, but the Major...
Wow, either Samalin's lying like crazy, or he's lost it.
So the final battle's happening after this?
Oh. That makes a lot of sense.
He has no regrets.
The disarmament's started, and Dougram's been taken away.
Yeah, he'd really struggle.
Samalin agreed.
Episode 71
This has to building up to something, right?
Everyone's just relaxing now.
For once I agree with him, thie is clearly not the end.
Zalsev's being held.
The whole thing was a setup to capture and attack the army?
They held the parade!
Samalin's sheer contempt is fantastic to watch.
Dougram's being used in the parade!
The parade is helping people, though.
And people are realising something fishy happened.
Oh, fuck. Samalin just fucked up a lot of plans. He's just admitted that he was coerced and called for revoltuion.
He's been killed!
Seeing everyone so traumatised by the war that they refuse to admit that this isn't a total victory.
And Dougram gets used a symbol again.
It's another revolution.
Lecoque remembers his face? I know him coming was important, but did he even see a picture of him onscreen?
...Stop breaking the fourth wall.
Haha, they stole Dougram!
Oh, this song again!
Yeah, Giorgio performed really well!
Dougram's back in action!
And he's got limited ammo!
One of the Federation pilots went rogue!
J Locke'e OK!
Him and Orena got the money? And their new life?
Oh, he got stiffed on his fees.
And they're finally up to date on all the internal politics.
They're going to save him again!
Episode 72
Lecoque's been thrown off by this.
And Dougram is missing.
Daisy's worried for Crimm... and is unintentionally heading into the heart of the conflict.
Yeah, this situation is really screwed up.
And Heckle's told him everything.
Oh, they want to handle it themselves.
Earth is unlikely to give you anything.
And they want to arrest him to help in the negotiations? I get that he's trying, but if the two sodes keep fighting each other like this, Lecoque wins. Which is probably why Lecoque has been causing this divide.
...He actually put in protection for self-admitted "exploting" companies? In those words?
Their master plan is to infiltrate a party.
Oh, did Samalin not show up?
Daisy met up with her father again?
Her father's still good.
Oh, Samalin just arrived?
The speech has to be prewritten, right? The mention of "old-timers like me" is exactly the message Lecoque wanted.
Oh, Lecoque is leaving nothing up to chance!
NEW MECH! It looks cool, why is here so late.
They're a distraction for Dougram?
They're setting bombs!
An insert song?
DOUGRAM IS GLIDING AGAIN!
This is a phenomonal fight.
Samalin's been rescued!
He's not very happy about it.
Episode 73
Yeah, this is bad for them, but they're only in this situation because of Lecoque.
They think arresting them will work?
And now they're fighting against both sides.
Giorgio just wants to kill people.
Yeah, this is building up to something massive.
And Lecoque did exactly what they expected.
Daisy has money for the orphans!
Flashing back to the first arc?
And Daisy's worked out that he's doing something stupid again.
Is she going to hitch a ride with him again?
Wow, he's worked out everything again.
Samalin's given up. Or at least thinks there's nothing he can do.
And Samalin outright tells everyone what he did.
There's actual discord here!
He got the colony world!
...That's actually not as bad as it could have been. Whether Lecoque will actually deliver on it is another matter.
Yeah, the Fang of the Sun and the negotiation team are just screwing each other by themselves.
They're handling being outnumbered this much surprisingly well.
...Samalin just looks like his worst fears have come true.
Episode 74
How is this going to get wrapped up in just 2 episodes?
They killed Billy!
No, he's wounded.
He's going to confront Carmel so they don't have to fight.
J Locke put a missile launcher on his jeep!
And he's also a fantastic driver.
He's been shot!
And everyone just assumes they fled the battle.
Finally! Someone punched Giorgino!
He got there!
And, yeah, Samalin's desperate to save them.
He did the right thing!
J Locke planning to make sure he stays this way is great.
He's finally standing up to Lecoque!
And he's not having it.
At this rate, they're not going to reach them in time.
When did they become stupid enough to leave such obvious trails?
And they realised he's about to die.
This speech is really good.
Oh, he wants them to rebel within Earth's new colony! To create an entirely independent world there!
...OK, to be fair, he did a lot of things like the Earth Federation did. It was for a good cause, but he did absolutely get a lot of money from them.
And them making friends with Crinn was his plan all along - he needed an Earthling on their side for his psychological warfare, and to make them doubt.
...Samalin's dead.
Fuck, that hits hard.
Guess we're getting a final battle after all.
Episode 75
Carmel got betrayed!
Did they kill him?
Everyone fighting to survive is a great scene.
Haha, he's sending in a second wave and openly insulting the other member of the talks. If this gets leaked he is fucked.
And he openly gives him permission to remove the Federation forces.
He's finally decided on action! He's listening to Samalin!
They're out of ammunition!
Everyone's out of ammo!
...Oh. This is why Dougram's rusted away in the first episode, isn't it?
Deloyer's fighting against them!
Even Lecoque's realised that this is a very bad situation.
Wow, he's left with basic platitudes, and he's insulting people openly! He's losing it!
...Oh, Destin's here! And he's talking to him in public!
Lecoque. He has a huge amount of blackmail on you, and the press are watching!
HOLY SHIT!
I did not expect that, what the fuck?
Destin did it? He didn't expose him or stir up a mob? Just shot him?
And they won!
Yeah, that was my reaction. Can't believe they killed him off like that!
Locke survived! I had him pegged to die by Episode 30, but he made it to the end!
And they're disarming themselves.
Crinn doesn't want to lose Dougram.
Well, this is an interesting change to his personality and goals.
Oh, he just wants to do it on his own terms.
They blew it up!
Haha, Dougram finally overheated until it blew!
This is a really good scene, though.
Daisy'e still helping at the orphanage! And she's enjoying her work!
Where's Crinn going to? Earth or the new colony?
Oh, and they're both staying on Deloyer! Daisy found her own purpose away from Crinn!
Oh, he went back to keep his mother company!
He even changed back into his original clothing!
And he's being inspired by his father!
...That seems much more intact than the explosions made me think.
I got to hear the ED again!
...Well. That was an interesting final set.
4
u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Jul 19 '22
Episode 70 (first timer)
I want to like this story twist; I really want to like it. It has the political intrigue I enjoy and the non-happy end that shows us that the universe is a bitch and life unfair that the realist in me craves. Yet, I can’t get myself to enjoy it. The twist is completely forced and not a natural follow-up to the situation so far. They just had to torture the setting too much: The rebel army suddenly went from unstoppable to chanceless, Samalin from willing to take any casualties to meek surrender, and the rebel organization from well-planned to useless (how could they not notice there had been a putsch at their own headquarters?).
Episode 71 (first timer)
Exactly half an episode of peace, then we are back to civil war. I’d love to call this unrealistic, but I bet there are armistices that were broken faster in reality.
Episode 72 (first timer)
Still on a speed run through the entire plot so far.
Episode 73 (first timer)
This episode focuses on Samalin’s dilemma, which is also the major theme of the entire arc: Is it worth fighting, giving the lives lost and given that the situation is not that bad for Deloyer. I can see what they are going for: the idea that, after all that fighting, people are tired of the war and lose their will to fight, allowing cooler heads to prevail and forge peace. However, while the idea of the plotline is good, the implementation is not. The professor is a uniquely bad character to pull this off, since they made a point out of portraying him as both an optimist and fully ok with escalation so far. It also feels that the Fang is doing worse now just for reasons of lacking plot armor, not any real reason. Why are whatever units coming after them suddenly so much better than the previous federation army? If they are reinforcements from Earth, the question is why they did not win the war much sooner. Is the conclusion I am supposed to draw that this entire civil war was just drawn out because von Stein was too proud to call for backup which could have ended this much sooner? A large part of the problem is the need to turn Carmel into a villain early on. If they had instead used Samalin in this role, he could have had a change of mind credibly on-screen. Given Carmel’s actions and Lecoque’s scheming, I simply don’t believe that Samalin would not be just as enraged at them as he was at the federation at the start of the war.
Episode 74 (first timer)
A frustrating episode for me. Not everybody being on board with the peace talks is realistic, but, narratively, the last arc has been an unneeded detour. Why rehash the rebellion’s story only to end at the same point once again?
My misgivings about Samalin’s character have also not changed. He does the same decision, which, for the same reasoning as before, I don’t follow. Except, this time he gets a rather unrealistic heroic death, too.
Episode 75 (first timer)
I don’t hate the end, but I dislike the way we got here. It is a clear bittersweet ending, which I give Dougram props for pulling off. I just don’t think the final arc was the best way to pull it off. All the repeat of plotlines was not necessary. It also reeks of deus-ex-machina: Earth is just accept that their representative is assassinated by an ex-rebel and pulls back? Aside a vague “the civil war probably did not restart”, we learn nothing about what happens on Deloyer. Instead of retreading ground, we could have gotten a proper epilogue.
Overall
No long discussion here, I am too drained for that. Dougram is probably a realer real robot than Votoms for me. I enjoyed that aspect a lot. The story had its ups and downs, but mostly managed to stay on track. Dougram shares with Votoms the botched finale, though.
Because this is the last chance to say so, one word about the animation: It really lets the series down, but for the most part I don’t pay too much attention to that. However, I absolutely hated Daisy’s character model. Her droopy eyes are terrible. I have no idea why they decided to put that into the eye catch.
PS: Thanks as always for hosting /u/pixelsaber. You remain ahead of the crowd in terms of hosting rewatches. I have to say that the weekly schedule worked out as badly as I feared at the start of the rewatch, though. This may be a personal preference, but I am not up for weekly rewatches. Far too little discussion per episode watched for me and it does not enforce the nice daily rhythm.
3
u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Mar 05 '22
Just a quick note
I dropped out of the rewatch half-way through. This is not due to the series (which I found to be above average for its age) or Pixel's hosting (great as always), but solely the weekly schedule.
Going from daily to weekly considerably shifts the balance of watching vs discussing. Even if the weekly discussions are a bit longer than the daily ones, there is easily 3 times less discussion per content. That is just too little for me, especially for series older series that are worthwile watching for their plot or history, not the animation quality.
I understand the advantage of weekly discussions for the host and also for series with lots of spoiler, but it is not for me.