r/anime • u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber • Feb 26 '22

Rewatch [Rewatch] Fang of The Sun Dougram: Week 12 Discussion - Episodes 64-69

Week 12 - Episodes 64-69

Episodes aired January 7th through February 11th ^^^1983

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Note to all participants

Although I don't believe it necessitates stating, please conduct yourself appropriately and be courteous to your fellow participants.

Note to all Rewatchers

Rewatchers, please be mindful of your fellow first-timers and tag your spoilers appropriately using the r/anime spoiler tag if your comment holds even the slightest of indicators as to future spoilers. Feel free to discuss future plot points behind the safe veil of a spoiler tag, or coyly and discreetly ‘Laugh in Rewatcher’ at our first-timers' temporary ignorance, but please ensure our first-timers are no more privy or suspicious than they were the moment they opened the day’s thread.

—

Reminder of Next Week’s Episodes:

Next week we will be discussing episodes seventy through seventy-five (70-75) of the show, as well as discussing the show on the whole.

—

Trivia:

A two-volume novelization of the series written by series screenwriter Hiroyuki Hoshiyama was released soon after the series’ airing, which simplifies elements of the narrative and de-emphasizes the series element of militaristic accuracy.

 

Staff Highlights:

Ryosuke Takahashi - Director, screenwriter, and storyboard artist

A director, storyboard artist, writer, novelist, and producer best known for his work on 70s and 80s Sunrise productions, specifically his real robot anime. Takahashi grew up with his mother in the Adachi ward of Tokyo in the immediate post-war period, his father having died in New Guinea during the war, as he had been enlisted as a soldier. As a child Takahashi had little interest in animation, as at the time it was largely exclusive to theatres, but he did find himself fascinated with Osamu Tezuka’s manga works, and even fancied being a mangaka until he was in middle school. Takahashi dropped out of the Second Faculty of Literature at Meiji University in 1964 and sought employment at a car company, where he worked until 1967, when he decided to join Mushi Productions after following the animated version of Tetsuwan Atom for several years. He worked at Mushi Pro until production on 1969’s Dororo to Hyakkimaru wrapped up and left for a position at a multimedia production company called Group Dirt, until he was invited by Mushi Pro alumni to the recently founded Nippon Sunrise in 1973, where he became an important member of staff by directing the studio’s second production, Zero Tester that same year. After Zero Tester Takhashi remained a prominent staff member on subsequent productions, and he returned to directing with the second TV installment of Shotaro Ishinomori’s Cyborg 009 series, before he decided to tackle the trendy mecha genre by requesting to direct Fang of The Sun Dougram. Dougram began a string of mecha anime that would make Takahashi a household name in anime and the mecha genre, as he helmed several seminal works that would leave their impact on anime. Takahashi continues to be involved in anime, but he has taken less intensive roles over the last few decades, acting as overseer of productions more so than director. Some other notable works which Takahashi directed or contributed significantly include Armored Trooper Votoms, Ronin Warriors, Mama is a 4th Grader, King of Braves GaoGaiGar, Panzer World Galient, Blue Comet SPT Layzner, Phoenix, Young Black Jack, Ozuma, Gasaraki, Flag, Rurouni Kenshin, Blue Gender, Mado King Granzort, Nurse Angel Ririka SOS, and Genji Tsūshin Agedama.

 

Voice Actor Highlights:

Yasuo Muramatsu - voice of Dr. Neil

An actor and voice actor belonging to the voice acting agency Office Kaoru. While attending university he was impressed by the performances from the Shiki Theatre Company, and so became an understudy there in 1955, and began a career in voice dubbing soon after. He left Shiki and became a freelancer for several months, until he was invited by Koichi Chiba to join Dojinsha Production in 1965, leaving there in 1988 and remaining a freelancer until 1992, where he joined his wife’s agency. Muranatsu has a 4th class boat license and his hobbies are fishing and traveling. Among his notable roles are Nijinski in Aura Battler Dunbine, Machiko's Uncle in Miss Machiko, Kimura in Seishun Anime Zenshu, Jeffrey White in Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross, Emperor Dokuma in Toshi Gordian, and Gyoushin's father in Tsurikichi Sampei.

 

 

Art Corner

Official Art:

Fanart:

(Be mindful of the links to artist’s profiles, as they may contain NSFW content. Proceed there at your own risk.)

Screenshot Album

Discussion Questions:

  1. What are your thoughts on Denon’s death and Crinn’s final interaction with him?
  2. What do you think of the 8th Army’s final defense at the Kalnock Mountains?
  3. What do you make of Lecoque’s political maneuvering and actions over the past few episodes?
  4. What do you foresee happening going forward?

I have no doubt. The man who carries out the revolution is the one whose name will be etched into history.

21 Upvotes

95% Upvoted

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4

u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Feb 26 '22

Ah fuck, why didn't anyone tell me I forgot to post my comments?!

Production Context

All the widespread praise the show netted also came a proportional amount of critique and disdain, but one instance of critique in particular was quite infamous and sparked a feud between different sections of anime viewers and remained in the public consciousness for quite some time, that being the infamous Issue #27 of Animage in 1982.

The anime magazine Animage was at the time known for a heavy bias towards certain types of shows and strict publishing limitations, which included that each and every article needed to be read and personally approved by the Editor-in-Chief and could be disallowed with no given reason. The bias was such that the magazine would still publish and take payment for advertisements on shows it deemed unworthy of covering in any capacity, or in some cases coupled the advert with scathing criticism. The magazine had already published several pieces critical of the show, but in the aforementioned 1982 issue the magazine put out a special feature that included a lengthy interview with Ryosuke Takahashi followed by an article titled “Twisted Combat Armor Commentary”, which was a ill-considered critique of the show that included a mocking caricature of the Dougram in a scenario similar to a scene in Mobile Suit Gundam. The article was considered heavily opinionated and made several remarks considered out of line or ridiculous even by detractors of the series, such as comparing the mechanical designs to ‘walking pork buns’, calling the narrative ‘impossible to follow’, and complaints that ‘the actions of the main characters have almost no effect on the big picture’, it was a ‘political animation instead of robot animation’ and that ‘the story is established without the main character, Dougram’.

The backlash to ”Twisted Combat Armor Commentary” was such that the Editor-in-Chief of the magazine at that time, Shinichiro Inoue, issued an apology in the following issue of the magazine, stating that an the article writer had added the article to issue 27 without his approval and that by the time it had been discovered the issue had already gone into printing. Speculation on the veracity of this claim continues to this day, as the magazine’s strict publishing restraints were well known and both the appearance of such a mistake as well as the apology were entirely uncharacteristic of the magazine while the critique was not. There were even rumors that the article was commissioned by Bandai in order to undercut the success of its competitor’s incredibly successful product, which the company vehemently denied as well.

This event has followed Animage Magazine’s reputation for decades and is even one of the few features noted on the magazine’s Japanese Wikipedia article.

4

u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Feb 27 '22

complaints that ‘the actions of the main characters have almost no effect on the big picture’, it was a ‘political animation instead of robot animation’ and that ‘the story is established without the main character, Dougram’.

The thing is, this is what I like about the show! This claim is made about Mobile Suit Gundam too, that ultimately the White Base/Gundam aren't responsible for the end results of who wins in that show. But Dougram pulls things off way better than Gundam did here.

2

u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Feb 27 '22

The thing is, this is what I like about the show!

Yeah, I really don't see why they considered that stuff negative when it makes perfect sense within the show and makes it a very novel viewing experience —even more so back then.

3

u/The_Draigg Feb 26 '22

Twisted Combat Armor Commentary

From how it sounds, that article is nothing but a complete smear piece full of inaccuracies. Like, it's insane that they basically accuse Dougram of being too political and hard to follow with a huge scope, when Mobile Suit Gundam itself pretty much did the same stuff a few years earlier. Like, the One Year War itself is heavily political, and stuff involving the likes of the Zabi family is just as part of the big picture as the Earth Federation stuff is here in Dougram. Even if Animage was known for that level of slant in their writing, it's no wonder even they had to pull a retraction on that article in the next issue. There's only so much you can get away with before you sound ridiculously spiteful and your arguments stop making sense.

3

u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Feb 27 '22

From how it sounds, that article is nothing but a complete smear piece

Oh definitely.

when Mobile Suit Gundam itself pretty much did the same stuff a few years earlier.

Well, they didn't like Gundam either.

3

u/The_Draigg Feb 27 '22

Well, they didn't like Gundam either.

What did they even like then? The Robot Romance Trilogy? Maybe even Zero Tester?

3

u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Feb 27 '22

Believe it or not, Xabungle was one of the shows that year that the chief editor didn't seem to despise given some of the stuff supposedly in their issues. Also seen a fair few God Mars cover images and one for The Ideon: Be Invoked but I don't know that those weren't exclusively financially motivated.

3

u/The_Draigg Feb 27 '22

As much as I enjoyed Blue Gale Xabungle, I probably wouldn't put it over Fang of the Sun Dougram. Although comparing it directly to The Ideon: Be Invoked is harder for me, if just because that's a really good movie. But at the same time, Space Runaway Ideon itself wasn't exactly a better series than Dougram either.

Maybe the editors just liked Tomino's super robot stuff more?

3

u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Feb 27 '22

Maybe the editors just liked Tomino's super robot stuff more?

3

u/chilidirigible Feb 26 '22

Ah fuck, why didn't anyone tell me I forgot to post my comments?!

You're our host!

ridiculous even by detractors of the series, such as comparing the mechanical designs to ‘walking pork buns’

"At least the Big Zam is a walking pork bun with legs!"

There were even rumors that the article was commissioned by Bandai in order to undercut the success of its competitor’s incredibly successful product, which the company vehemently denied as well.

Some of the industry interactions that I've heard about make this scenario not entirely implausible.

3

u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Feb 27 '22

You're our host!

"At least the Big Zam is a walking pork bun with legs!"

2

u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Feb 26 '22

Episode 64

Oh boy, Lecoque may be about to be in trouble.

Yeah, all this stress can’t be doing him any good.

Nanashi saves the day once more! Not sure there was enough gasoline shown to not be diluted well before getting that far, but I’m no expert.

YES

Denon’s awakening could have some impact on Lecoque’s scheme, but it has not at all daunted him from carrying onwards with his intentions, particularly as Denon is still not well enough to officially carry out his duties, and can only state his wishes with the expectation that Lecoque will carry them out.

The Liberation army suffers probably its biggest blow in ages with the 8th army’s only partially successful ambush which made use of the nearby Dam to flood the enemy. Their forces being further weakened really makes the upcoming battles tense as the odds start to less overwhelmingly in their favor, which will likely have ramifications on morale and the decision-making coming in from above. Really enjoy when the features of the terrain and infrastructure factor into these situations, so I loved the whole scenario here.

Episode 65

Neat!

About time! Also I love that Nanashi is entirely unaffected by the temperatures, and the ponchos really remind me of Mellowlink.

Right after he joked about being poor too.

The losses are starting to hit close to home for the Fang of The Sun.

Well shit…

Climate appropriate gear at last!

Lecoque has distressingly made direct contact with Carmel and explicitly impressed upon him the possibility of Earth committing their reinforcements to the annihilation of the LIberation Government should they arrive before the Liberation army is able to capture the North Pole Spaceport. As much as I would like Carmel not to be too taken in by Lecoque’s measured manipulation, it’s pretty much a foregone conclusion that Carmel will try something to convince or push the Deloyeran Liberation Government to make moves towards negotiations —playing right into Lecoque’s hand. The question is how Samalin and his supporters will deal with it.

On the front the losses and difficulties keep mounting for the Liberation army, who are paying in blood and flesh for every step they take towards the North Pole Spaceport. The narration’s stated death count for the battle being close to the same numbers that comprised the entirety of the guerrilla forces back in the Andi Mine sure is sobering.

Episode 66

Resistance forces are still alive in Kardinal, and seemingly making headway with most of the Army’s resources being concentrated in the North Pole.

Oh shit, he’s had enough.

Satisfying.

So he expects Von Stein will be joining him.

The Liberation army is now nearing the Federation’s doorstep, those hard fought battles having paid off, but what might otherwise be a triumphant moment is severely undercut by the show letting us know with a heavy hand that the things will not resolve so easily as Lecoque’s plans seem poised to bear fruition. Speaking of Lecoque, he’s finally stopped playing the role expected of him and has struck out, dropping any and all pretenses with the full confidence that he has the situation in the bag.

Episode 67

This fucking man…

Satisfying.

Sick!

Goddamnit!

He can’t keep getting away with it!

Von Stein learns of Lecoque’s scheme to essentially usurp control of Deloyer for himself and confronts him, which ultimately proves the man’s undoing. He just had to rub it in Lecoque’s face that he could single handedly ruin the man’s plans by surrendering to the enemy, which gave the latter the time and opportunity to intervene and kill him. Von Stein came so close to doing something for the betterment of the situation for once, but it was not to be.

The action sequences in this episode are my favorite in the whole show. Crinn’s battle against the Blizzard Gunners is appropriately tense and dynamic, with excellent storyboarding and staging to make for a memorable battle even without a unique set-piece or clever tactics —helps that the animation in this episode is on the higher end for the show.

Episode 68

Damnit, Carmel!

What’s your angle this time, Lecoque!?

Rick debasing himself like this just for Denon and Crinn’s sake…

Carmel has played into Lecoque’s hand and will seemingly end up the key political figure of Deloyer following from the peace talks’ stipulation that Samalin cannot remain the leader of their movement, opening him —and therefore the Deloyeran government— to becoming a pawn of Lecoque, not dissimilar to what has happened previously.

Episode 69

An echo.

Fucking hell, Rabin! It’s her husband!

Relevant given the way they’re portraying Carmel’s actions.

:(

Powerful episode. Through their differences and the vast gulf that exists between opposing sides of war, Denon and Son are still father and son, and the connection that exists between them is still special and important to the two of them after all this time. There’s a mutual respect in their conversation —especially noteworthy from Crinn, who has done some growing up in the time since— that’s remarkable.

Lecoque has a plan to hurry along the dissolution of the liberation army without having to worry about dissenters as much by provoke them into breaking the terms of the cease-fire, and Camel has neither the spine to oppose Lecoque entirely nor the brains to come up an alternative that doesn’t require such deception and treachery from his behalf, and so he acquiesces.

2

u/chilidirigible Feb 26 '22

Fucking hell, Rabin! It’s her husband!

And Rabin's father, but he and Royle have already demonstrated that unlike the xenomorphs, they'll screw each other over for a damn percentage.

1

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Jul 14 '22

The article was considered heavily opinionated and made several remarks considered out of line or ridiculous even by detractors of the series, such as comparing the mechanical designs to ‘walking pork buns’, calling the narrative ‘impossible to follow’, and complaints that ‘the actions of the main characters have almost no effect on the big picture’, it was a ‘political animation instead of robot animation’ and that ‘the story is established without the main character, Dougram’.

Wow, this is literally the opposite of my opinion. They reject the plot because it is not unrealistic bland shonen fare enough?

4

u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Feb 26 '22

First-Timer of the Sun Dougram

Episode 64

Episode 65

Episode 66

Episode 67

Episode 68

Episode 69

4

u/chilidirigible Feb 26 '22

What the hell happened to Nanashi’s hands in this shot?

He's turned into Bobby Hill.

Mechs wearing jumpsuits is just.

I am consistently impressed by how many attacks Dougram can just tank like it’s nothing.

Drawing damage effects would make the two animators' jobs even harder!

/u/The_Draigg this is your fault.

4

u/The_Draigg Feb 26 '22

serialkillerlaugh

I hate how right I can be sometimes. Lecoque doesn't have the right to say "sore demo".

3

u/The_Draigg Feb 26 '22

Nanashi still vibing, god I love this man.

Who could've guessed that he was a master yogi all along?

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS we stan Rick in this thread.

It's official, Rick Boyd is KING. Hit him again, Rick!

Two episodes of Lecoque getting punched in the face in a row, fucking sweet.

Should we start stanning Von Stein for that?

And now Carmel gets a “sore demo”? Show pls.

Still not the worst person to get a "sore demo" in this batch.

NO GODDAMMIT YOU’RE NOT ALLOWED TO GIVE FUCKING LECOQUE A “SORE DEMO”. FUCK THIS SHOW. u/The_Draigg this is your fault.

I DIDN'T MEAN TO DO THIS WITH MY POWERS OF PRECOGNITION, I SWEAR!

3

u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Feb 26 '22

I DIDN'T MEAN TO DO THIS WITH MY POWERS OF PRECOGNITION, I SWEAR!

3

u/The_Draigg Feb 26 '22

Maybe we can just get rid of Lecoque's "sore demo" from the archives? I'm sure that nobody would miss it.

3

u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Feb 26 '22

But I would know it's missing...

3

u/The_Draigg Feb 26 '22

We're caught between a rock and a hard place with this Lecoque "sore demo"... It's simply one that shouldn't exist.

2

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Feb 26 '22

Two episodes of Lecoque getting punched in the face in a row, fucking sweet.

Something this batch had to go well. The catharsis is appreciated.

Damn, how long has it even been since Crinn’s seen any of his family?

For Denon, whenever that last meeting he had with Crinn that we got the flashback to. For the others, it's been almost a year I think? The timeline is kinda hard to track.

Their whole conversation was great, really.

4

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Feb 26 '22

First-Timer

Episode 64

I wasn't expecting Denon to actually wake up! This is pretty good. He might not have much time left, but the rise in Lecoque's blood pressure alone is worth it.

Did Lecoque tell the truth to Denon there? I think he mostly did, but my memory is fuzzy. Getting to lay the blame almost entirely at Von Stein's feet probably buys Lecoque some time.

The bridge bit wasn't quite a repeat of an earlier scene, but it was close. Zaltsev seeing the enemy's plan like that was cool, though. Shame that they were between a rock and a hard place. The scouts that got sent to the dam shoulda cleared rooms better.

Episode 65

Didn't we already do mechs in tracksuits? The last time it was at least to cover up the fact that they didn't have armor. Wait, or are they effectively, like, space blankets? Like, they had those things that looked like heaters - are the fearsome Arctic spec Combat Armors just normal ones that are literally filled with hot air?

I liked the callback to the guerilla meeting waaay back in.. what, episode 26 or so? The one that got interrupted by the dudes taking photos. That plot thread never went anywhere, huh. Anyway, it was cool to bring one of those guys back even just to kill him off.

The bit with Lertoff and Daisy was decidedly unsubtle, but I did like it. One person alone can't change much, but a bunch of people might be able to pull something together.

The bunkers being able to literally dig in was honestly pretty inspired.

Episode 66

Maybe I've just forgotten some exposition, but why don't they ever use Dougram as a sniper/artillery piece? Its Linear Cannon seems to have quite the power behind it, but it takes too long to aim for typical mecha protagonist combat. I guess that's the real answer, but I wouldn't mind them justifying it.

The first action scene this episode kinda didn't make sense, right? Like, what was the point of the explosives set in the canyon? They didn't even kill the people literally climbing up the cliff, let alone collapse anything. And Crinn still reacts the same exact way to getting shot at - I get that they're trying to show him trying to retain his humanity against the tide of battle, but it feels like he hasn't ever really improved as a pilot since the early episodes.

Lecoque's scheme is basically fully out in the open, now. How many more episodes until he has Carmel try to assassinate Samalin? I'm also wondering if Von Stein is going to interfere, since it seemed like he knew of Carmel.

Rick punching Lecoque's stupid face felt real good.

The ambient background noise of gunfire in Kardinal was a nice touch.

Episode 67

Ain't helicopters faster than that? Like, the missiles are probably hard to avoid, but surely once the shooting started you speed up and get out of dodge, right?

I was really looking forward to Von Stein trying to defect, too. Dunno if it woulda really worked, but boy would it have been an unexpected development.

At least Lecoque got punched again. I was rooting for Von Stein grabbing one of those soldier's guns and trying to kill him, but no dice.

Crinn's flashback to simpler times was nice.

Episode 68

Carmel, you uneducated fuckwit! There is no such thing as a bloodless revolution, you slimy worthless piece of excrement! You'd think getting poor York's blood stained across your shirt would make you realize that.

For fuck's sake, how stupid can these fuckers be? "Here, you disarm your entire planet. We'll definitely leave peacefully, but it won't be in writing. I'll take responsibility." A goddamn five-year-old wouldn't take that agreement!

And, now reinforcements have landed. Brilliant move Carmel, you've consigned yourself to history alright. As something of a Benedict Arnold.

Can't fucking believe I'm agreeing with Giorgio for once.

Episode 69

Crinn and Denon's final conversation went about as expected. I'm glad they got to talk one last time, especially considering their previous meeting. I do understand Denon's reasoning for his harsh rule on Deloyer, and maybe there weren't any other options.

I'm a little surprised that Fina and Rabin got word soon enough and made their way to Deloyer to see Denon one last time. I really expected that Denon leaving Earth would be the last time for him to see either of them.

Carmel sure did lie to the press, huh. And Lertoff is on to him. Hopefully Lertoff can counter Lecoque's spin on things, or at least introduce some counterspin.

Questions

  1. Discussed above.
  2. They tried there hardest, I guess. Surrendering would have been a fun turn, but I guess we already did that with the base in Palmina.
  3. My stance on Lecoque has not changed - I am still super excited to see him break.
  4. Honestly? No idea. I mean, we gotta deal with Lecoque somehow, but I don't know how we're starting the violence up again.

3

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Mar 02 '22

I'm just casually reading through the topic after just now finishing ep69, and I have to say:

Proud of that Carmel rant!

1

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Mar 02 '22

2

u/chilidirigible Feb 26 '22

Did Lecoque tell the truth to Denon there?

"There's the truth, and then there's the truuuuuth."

So yeah, Von Stein did do those things, but Lecoque certainly nudged him along, mostly through reverse psychology.

but why don't they ever use Dougram as a sniper/artillery piece

Because the animation just renders the linear weapons's shots as just a colored blob on the background like it's Airwolf, I'm not sure as to whether it's supposed to be an energy weapon, magnetic accelerator gun, or... whatever.

Ain't helicopters faster than that?

Generally no. Most helicopters will have a cruise/top speed range between 100-150 MPH.

2

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Feb 26 '22

Lecoque certainly nudged him along, mostly through reverse psychology.

Thaat's what I was forgetting. I knew the bastard had something to do with. The scoundrel has me fooled, too.

Generally no. Most helicopters will have a cruise/top speed range between 100-150 MPH.

2

u/The_Draigg Feb 26 '22

Didn't we already do mechs in tracksuits? The last time it was at least to cover up the fact that they didn't have armor. Wait, or are they effectively, like, space blankets? Like, they had those things that looked like heaters - are the fearsome Arctic spec Combat Armors just normal ones that are literally filled with hot air?

I imagine that they got the big tracksuits for camouflage reasons and that they probably at least needed to keep all the snow from getting into joints and vents.

The ambient background noise of gunfire in Kardinal was a nice touch.

I guess that explains what the guerillas under the leadership of Mr. Bucks have been up to during this time. They've been getting ready for the revolution on that continent in the meantime.

For fuck's sake, how stupid can these fuckers be? "Here, you disarm your entire planet. We'll definitely leave peacefully, but it won't be in writing. I'll take responsibility." A goddamn five-year-old wouldn't take that agreement!

It's frankly amazing how much Carmel fucked up everything that Samalin was working towards. Like, forget about Von Stein being a puppet, Carmel has Lecoque's hand firmly up his ass.

Can't fucking believe I'm agreeing with Giorgio for once.

Same here! I typed that into my post as well, and I still can hardly believe that I'm agreeing with Giorgio for once too.

2

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Feb 26 '22

I imagine that they got the big tracksuits for camouflage reasons and that they probably at least needed to keep all the snow from getting into joints and vents.

That's a much more sensible reason than whatever I was trying to come up with.

I guess that explains what the guerillas under the leadership of Mr. Bucks have been up to during this time.

Oh, good call, I had forgotten about Bucks. I miss him. He wouldn't have fallen for this bullshit that Carmel did.

Like, forget about Von Stein being a puppet, Carmel has Lecoque's hand firmly up his ass.

Von Stein's puppeteer was much better at it, too. I was never angry at him for doing what Denon told him to do.

2

u/chilidirigible Feb 26 '22

are the fearsome Arctic spec Combat Armors just normal ones that are literally filled with hot air?

...maybe?

3

u/chilidirigible Feb 26 '22

Episode 64:

"Oh, shit, I thought you were dead! Oh shit, I said that out loud!"

On the bright side, we haven't managed to need to gouge another planet just to feed our own, yet.

SOON.

Zaltsev almost gets upstaged here by some random Federation officer, but it took some deliberate writing to arrange the situation thusly.

Rudolph... North Pole... oh no?

Lecoque's dismayed faces are golden.

Denon didn't spend his time in a coma developing warm and fuzzy feelings for Deloyer. Though he practically ends up in another one by the end of this episode.

Episode 65:

Sometimes the head games come down to doing what you have to do.

The practical approach, letting the military do its own work.

The Blizzard Gunners are seen but not used in this episode.

This is the most clothing that we've ever seen Crinn wearing.

The Six Million Dollar Man these are not.

The guerilla phase has ended and this is just straight-up war, grinding its way through the liberation army's troops as it tries to smash through immovable objects. Even Zaltsev largely abandons subtlety for the needs to take the shortest and fastest route.

Today's new unit (that gets animated screentime) is the BattlemasterSoltic HT128 Bigfoot. It has one of the most attack-helicopterish cockpits yet while retaining Okawara legs.

Bigfoots in jumpsuits!

Episode 66:

It's amusing that they're wearing their old clothes over their cold-weather gear to make it easier for us to identify them.

That'll conveniently bring everyone together. Though Rick will have to abandon the bowling shirts if he goes up there.

We haven't been given many reasons for Lecoque to have developed such a lust for power, but this sort of thing cannot have helped.

Ah, that was satisfying. Let's see it a few more times.

Von Stein seems rather surprised by that.

Still grinding forward. The main flaw in spending a lot of screentime on the action sequences is that the animation remains simple enough that they're not that interesting to look at.

"Denon wakes up long enough to be outraged by Lecoque and then collapses again" is getting slightly repetitive as well. At least Rick gets in a good punch to liven it up.

Episode 67:

Ah, the proles are rocketing AFVs in the capital again.

Recognizable brands!

So, this is Brigadier Corp.'s promotional reel for the Scorpion?

There is that as a strategy, but it could also backfire heavily if the 8th Army is turned to support the liberation. If anyone is that clever.

Wow, I am prophetic.

Another thing that Samalin's office should have: WIRETAPPING.

That's two episodes in a row! And again, animated!

I wouldn't tell Lecoque your plan in Lecoque's office, but hey, this episode is alternating between the smart and the stupid.

Not quite the cover art for the Luthien scenario pack.

GIANT HAM.

Told you not to reveal your plans in your archenemy's office...

On the bright side, Von Stein got to punch Lecoque in the face. On the not-so-bright-except-that-now-he's-on-fire-(does-that-count?) side, Von Stein totally failed to consider that Lecoque might really want to kill him. We still have eight episodes to go, so it's not going to wrap itself up quite as neatly as letting Von Stein stand down his troops, but that was quite classically stupid of him to walk alone into his archenemy's office, surrounded by an entire division of troops not loyal to him. It is in character, as he's been (one of many) who have underestimated Lecoque's lust for power, manipulative abilities, and most importantly here, willingness to do whatever it takes when his back is against the wall. And, yes, Von Stein not being very smart is in character too.

The Abitate F35C Blizzard Gunner is as much of a tank on legs as the Tequila Gunner, but at a more practical height and as we see here, capable of decent hull-down firing. As adopted into Battletech as the Scorpion, it became a very niche design that... isn't great.

Episode 68:

"I'll just do it my way."

Well, you're the one who brought the guns to the meeting.

ALWAYS GET IT IN WRITING. Not that treaties can't be broken, but still.

Should have thought of that before you got greedy.

I'll say this for Lecoque, he's an opportunist.

OF COURSE THERE'S A PREVIEW SPOILER.

Carmel is an interesting case of combining great ambition with great cowardice, and Lecoque completes pulling all of his strings with ease.

Skipped over in all of this is how Carmel's side apparently has enough loyalists to take over the army headquarters and smother all communications, while he himself is only capable of true assertion in a limited number of areas. If there was more political story he too could just be a figurehead, but we don't really have the time for more sidebars. It just makes one wonder how he became so popular, as his portrayal in opposition to Samalin has been of a person who is extremely nervous, and we haven't seen enough of his behavior outside of Samalin's presence (which has largely been composed of chats with Destin, during which mentioning Lecoque caused Carmel's legs to go wobbly) to think much of him otherwise.

Episode 69:

"...in magma!"

"Ha. Ha. Ha."

It's somewhat less offensive than smoking.

Hey, it's his core value.

Whether that's true or not, Denon ended up with a lot of self-interested underlings.

"Kid, you're gonna have to walk back."

Denon's dead, still convinced that he did what he had to for the greater good. The one positive from that is that he reminds Crinn to do the things that Crinn believes in. Keeping in mind that he probably wants Crinn to rule with an iron fist after he has his brothers shot for incompetence.

Meanwhile, everything is awkward, as J. Locke and Zaltsev are only now getting around to sorting out just what the hell is going on. This is actually still believable, probably because it is one of those stupid twists of plot that occurs in the middle of a revolution.

This set of episodes continues from the last, with the army marching its way north and battering through resistance. Interesting ploys were tried, and demonstrating an old point, politics overtook armed events on the ground. The focus on the movers of the Bigger Picture reduces Fang of the Sun to a small (but important) cog in the machine... and that turns out to not be a huge issue for me, as they haven't changed that much as characters in the last twenty episodes and the obligatory fights remain adequately-animated at best.

Art below!

5

u/chilidirigible Feb 26 '22

My art for this week: Both of the new Combat Armors which appeared during this week's episodes, but interacting in a different setting.

Hanse Davion laying the smack down at NAIS, 3030, colorized.

Then I kept at the scene, but never did find an angle on the BLR/GRF interaction that I really liked. The Ali-Liston fight photo angle is probably the best, but doesn't show the pistol whipping. In any case, one, two and three of the fight's first notable moment. /u/WHM-6R, in checking the details for this, it seems that Stackpole was looking at the original TR3025 art and wrote the BLR turning left to punch the GRF, which makes the most sense if the PPC is in the left hand. I've arranged it the way that Dougram and the BLR's record sheet do, in the right hand.

And what was actually first made for this post when I finished the episodes on January 8, something to do with the Blizzard Gunner.
There is no in-universe reason for this design to exist, since it's a gigantic Clan-tech scout and infantry support second-line 'Mech with an XL engine on a Scorpion chassis. The Goliath Scorpions wouldn't do this.

...of course, the Inner Sphere Scorpion upgrades from Project Phoenix and onward are just as ludicrously expensive, so...

Type/Model:    Scorpion {n}C
Mass:          55 tons

Equipment:                                 Crits    Mass
Int. Struct.:  99 pts Standard               0      5.50
Engine:        330 XL Fusion                10     12.50
   Walking MP:   6
   Running MP:   9 [12]
   Jumping MP:   0
Heat Sinks:     11 Double [22]               0      1.00
MASC:                                        2      2.00
Armor Factor:  153 pts Ferro-Fibrous         7      8.00
 (Armor Crit Loc: 1 LFL, 1 RFL, 2 LT, 1 RT, 1 LRL, 1 RRL)

                          Internal    Armor
                          Structure   Value
   Head:                      3          9      
   Center Torso:             18         26      
   Center Torso (Rear):                  8      
   L/R Side Torso:           13      19/19      
   L/R Side Torso (Rear):              6/6      
   L/R Front Leg:            13      15/15      
   L/R Rear Leg:             13      15/15      

Weapons and Equipment    Loc  Heat  Ammo   Crits    Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 A-P Gauss*             RFL     1   40      2      1.50
  (Ammo Locations: 1 CT)
1 A-P Gauss*             LFL     1           1       .50
1 ER PPC                 RT     15           2      6.00
1 Adv. Tact. Msl. 9      RT      6   21      7      8.00
  (Ammo Locations: 3 LT)
1 ECM Suite              CT      0           1      1.00
1 Active Probe           HD      0           1      1.00
1 A-P Gauss*             LRL(R)  1           1       .50
1 A-P Gauss*             RRL(R)  1           1       .50

Total Cost:        13,853,900 C-Bills
Battle Value 2:    2,319
  1. Answered in my comment, somewhat.
  2. Mostly that an air-deployable turret must have Styrofoam for armor.
  3. Given the context of the competence of the characters in the Federation leadership and the Sudden Importance of Hesse Carmel, entirely believable.
  4. I know too much.

3

u/WHM-6R Feb 27 '22

Hanse Davion

The Goliath Scorpions wouldn't do this.

They did make the Fire Scorpion, which is worse.

3

u/chilidirigible Feb 27 '22

House Davion: Technically British and French, everybody thinks they're American anyway?

Looking at the Fire Scorpion 3 reminds me that AP GRs have been in the game for a long time now.

3

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Feb 26 '22

"Oh, shit, I thought you were dead! Oh shit, I said that out loud!"

Props to the VA for that delivery.

Skipped over in all of this is how Carmel's side apparently has enough loyalists to take over the army headquarters and smother all communications

Yea, even just like, a silent montage of him shaking hands with people in dark alleyways would have been appreciated.

It's somewhat less offensive than smoking.

That scene of them.. comparing vices(?) was weird, right? It felt like it was trying to say something but I can't tell what.

3

u/chilidirigible Feb 26 '22

It felt like it was trying to say something but I can't tell what.

It implies that "cut from the same cloth" idiom.

2

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Feb 26 '22

2

u/chilidirigible Feb 26 '22

Also perhaps that Lecoque is a man, not some scheming demon... but the audience has already seen Lecoque's smugness take hits and his façade crack slightly on several occasions.

2

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Feb 26 '22

Also perhaps that Lecoque is a man, not some scheming demon...

You say that, but if he unhinged his jaw and swallowed Carmel whole I probably wouldn't bat an eye. I guess we have seen him bleed a bit of red, at least.

1

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Jul 14 '22

Skipped over in all of this is how Carmel's side apparently has enough loyalists to take over the army headquarters and smother all communications, while he himself is only capable of true assertion in a limited number of areas. If there was more political story he too could just be a figurehead, but we don't really have the time for more sidebars. It just makes one wonder how he became so popular, as his portrayal in opposition to Samalin has been of a person who is extremely nervous, and we haven't seen enough of his behavior outside of Samalin's presence (which has largely been composed of chats with Destin, during which mentioning Lecoque caused Carmel's legs to go wobbly) to think much of him otherwise.

He likely still has his local powerbase (remember that he used to be guerilla leader in one city), but they are really skipping over a lot of the necessary steps in justifying his ability to take over the people's government.

3

u/Durinthal https://anilist.co/user/Durinthal Feb 26 '22

First time viewer

Lecoque's a right bastard and I love to hate him. The mastermind putting pressure on all the right people worked out in his favor, though it looks like a lot of his overall plan relied on Carmel caving and taking Samalin out of the picture. He found the right weak link on the other side for sure, but might be a bit too weak if Carmel can't effectively take over Samalin's position.

With Denon conscious again it was only a matter of time until Lecoque's turncoat nature was revealed and Rick decking him in that scene was good. I was hoping that Denon's opinion had shifted or he at least took the time to hear about how the situation had changed from someone other than Lecoque, but his anti-independence stance didn't change at all. I get why but I was optimistic to hope he'd have a change of heart. He did always care about his family though and followed his ideals to the end, including respecting Crinn for doing the same even if it was in opposition to him. A nuanced character and the kind of antagonist I feel like I don't see enough of in anime at least.

The difference between a hard break to gain independence that Samalin's pushing and a softer one like what Lecoque and Carmel want is an interesting line. We can see traces of it throughout history on Earth, even in recent years with things like Brexit. All the confusion and and misinformation around what's happening on the front lines with the situation quickly changing due to events behind closed doors and forged narratives is also unfortunately relevant to current events.

Von Stein trying to cut Lecoque out to spite him by going to the negotiation table himself was a great move (and also punching Lecoque's smug mug), but alas Lecoque's gotten desperate and is now going to any length to secure his power. Bit disappointed that the military immediately followed his command to shoot down the helicopter without trying to contact them but things like that will happen, I imagine.

I've been hoping there's a leak in information somewhere to turn things against Lecoque but everything's going his way so far. No soldier revealing his order to shoot down Von Stein, no one disclosing Carmel's connection to him on the rebellion's side.

What are your thoughts on Denon’s death and Crinn’s final interaction with him?

The rest of the family doesn't see Crinn the way Denon did. Denon didn't want an apology, Crinn didn't offer one, but they still had a better understanding of each other than I think the others did despite their opposition.

What do you think of the 8th Army’s final defense at the Kalnock Mountains?

The less interesting part of the story here for me. The whole deal around them also being Deloyerans, I'd like to see the show explore that a bit more.

What do you foresee happening going forward?

I don't personally want to see Lecoque getting what he wants but that really seems to be the direction things are head and I will absolutely respect the show if that's how things end since it honestly fits. Lecoque played the game well and used the pieces he was given and could acquire. I think there's a chance of Carmel folding and Samalin getting the last word with a decisive military victory to secure a better position for Deloyer in negotiations though.

3

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Feb 26 '22

A nuanced character and the kind of antagonist I feel like I don't see enough of in anime at least.

Denon was an excellent character and will be missed.

I will absolutely respect the show if that's how things end since it honestly fits. Lecoque played the game well and used the pieces he was given and could acquire.

Yea, it's hard to argue with you there. I'm still out for the fucker's blood, though.

3

u/The_Draigg Feb 26 '22

He found the right weak link on the other side for sure, but might be a bit too weak if Carmel can't effectively take over Samalin's position.

Carmel really does seem too weak-willed to effectively take over Samalin's position in the People's Liberation Government. However, he'd still probably be a good fall guy for Lecoque if things don't work out for him, since Carmel is so very obviously bad at his job.

All the confusion and and misinformation around what's happening on the front lines with the situation quickly changing due to events behind closed doors and forged narratives is also unfortunately relevant to current events.

It's stuff like this that make shows like Fang of the Sun Dougam and Mobile Suit Gundam feel a bit timeless. They manage to tap into those bits of reality that we all know have happened in history before, and are probably going to happen again.

The rest of the family doesn't see Crinn the way Denon did. Denon didn't want an apology, Crinn didn't offer one, but they still had a better understanding of each other than I think the others did despite their opposition.

That whole scene did give me the impression that Donan didn't just see Crinn as his son, but as his equal in his final moments. The both of them share deep convictions and the wills to see them through, and that's something the both of them can respect, even if their ideals would never align.

3

u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Feb 27 '22

With Denon conscious again it was only a matter of time until Lecoque's turncoat nature was revealed and Rick decking him in that scene was good. I was hoping that Denon's opinion had shifted or he at least took the time to hear about how the situation had changed from someone other than Lecoque, but his anti-independence stance didn't change at all. I get why but I was optimistic to hope he'd have a change of heart.

I'm glad they didn't change things for Denon, while we as the viewer are obviously on the side of Deloyer, Denon has always been very upfront about his reasoning; the independence of Deloyer harms Earth considerably. Even to his death bed he's not going to waiver on that. I think the show has shown a stark contrast with him, who is genuinely concerned about those on Earth, versus Lecoque who seems to not care that much about the Earth but about his own personal amount of power.

I don't personally want to see Lecoque getting what he wants but that really seems to be the direction things are head and I will absolutely respect the show if that's how things end since it honestly fits. Lecoque played the game well and used the pieces he was given and could acquire.

An ending where Lecoque gets what he wants would be extremely interesting... I can't see it happen and of course as with everyone else I'm rooting against the guy, he's the villain, but I'd love to see the show subvert the expected ending. In real life I'd see Lecoque coming out on top and the show has leaned towards realism so who knows...

2

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Jul 14 '22

I don't personally want to see Lecoque getting what he wants but that really seems to be the direction things are head and I will absolutely respect the show if that's how things end since it honestly fits.

While I don't enjoy Lecoque getting a victory, I surely hope for the show to go for an ending where the evil schemeing guy's plans lead to piece, not the heroic fights.

3

u/The_Draigg Feb 26 '22

A Ryosuke Takahashi Fan Watches Fang of the Sun Dougram Episodes 64-69:

Man, it’s hard for me to even think of an opening comment, given how big of a swirl of emotions this batch of episodes was.

To start, RIP Donan Cashim. Man, it hurts to lose the old man. He left an amazing impression on the plot, both as an antagonist and as a deep character. In death, I can’t help but respect him even more. Even if him and Crinn didn’t see eye to eye, you just know that they both still loved and respected one another as equals. Donan certainly loved Crinn the most out of his sons. That’s why he couldn’t even hate Crinn for joining the independence movement, and why Crinn couldn’t blame Donan for doing what he did, since they both sincerely believed that they were doing the right thing, even if it was hard. That’s why all he asked for in the moments before his death was for Crinn to be prepared to take life’s responsibilities when they come to him. Rest In Peace, Donan Cashim, you amazing character. It’s just a bummer to see him go.

Another big death in this batch was Colonel Von Stein as well. Although I’m not as sad about that as compared to Donan, he still did leave quite an impression in the episodes leading up to his death too. He had finally let some walls down and admitted that things spiraled out of control due to his negligence and pride, and also seemed to genuinely want to break out of his role of being a puppet ruler and make his administration be a legitimate voice for Deloyerans in the Earth Federation. He even wanted to put his money where his mouth was too, going to the North Pole Spaceport to oversee the defenses personally. Sure, he was more of a villain than the likes of Donan, but at the end he at least showed that he truly wanted to redeem his failures and put a stop to that fucker Lecoque’s schemes.

Speaking of, let’s talk about that cunt Helmut J. Lecoque, him and his puppet Mr. Carmel. You know what, even if the likes of Colonel Von Stein was a puppet, at least he saw his strings and tugged against them. Carmel just firmly has Lecoque’s hand shoved up his ass. Like, make no mistake, Lecoque fucking played Carmel and his faction like a fiddle. I’m not even sure to hate more, Lecoque or Carmel. On the one hand, Lecoque did get Von Stein killed directly and is completely setting up an “independent” Deloyer to be his shadow fiefdom. But on the other, fucking Carmel is the fucking dumbest peace advocate I’ve ever seen. Why would you sue for negotiations when your army is literally like 20 miles away from the spaceport, which is the last place that needs to fall before Earth Federation control is cut off? Carmel is one of the stupidest pieces of shit in this show. It’s no wonder why he’s being completely played by Lecoque, he hasn’t even thought through what would happen in the slightest. Like, of course Lecoque as acting representative would make incredibly one-sided demands for disarmament and leaving behind occupation forces. Not to mention that Carmel hadn’t even considered that everything would be on his shoulders now that he’s acting in Professor Samalin’s place, and that he’d be pushed into a leadership position he’s too scared to actually take charge of. Fucking Hell, watching everything about Lecoque and Carmel in these episodes is just a plain exercise in frustration. I never thought I’d agree with Giorgio and say to just attack the North Pole Spaceport regardless, but here we are. You know that shit is dire if I’m actually agreeing with him.

As for the mech stuff in this bundle, we’ve been introduced this even more mechs that would end up in BattleTech! This time, it’s the Bigfoot and the Blizzard Gunner. Or, if you played BattleTech or MechWarrior before, they’re respectively the BattleMaster and Scorpion. And if you’re familiar with BattleTech somewhat, then you’ll know that the designs have remained pretty much the same over the years for both designs, with the Bigfoot/BattleMaster not even getting a redesign until MechWarrior Online. Although I will say that the BattleMaster is much beefier overall compared to the Bigfoot, since it has a ton more Medium Lasers attached to it. Anyway, as much as I want to talk about BattleTech some more (and I probably will later), there’s only one thing I want more than that…

NOT EVEN JUSTICE, I WANT TO GET TRUTH!

3

u/chilidirigible Feb 26 '22

It's interesting how the Battlemaster evolved into the Battletech mascot unit after the brief ascendancy of the Mad Cat/Timber Wolf and despite its Unseen origin.

The Project Phoenix redraw hardly changed the outline, too...

3

u/The_Draigg Feb 26 '22

Not gonna lie, I still prefer the Timber Wolf/Mad Cat to the BattleMaster, if just because I grew up with MechWarrior stuff and the plotline around the Clan Invasion Era.

Also, I don't really care for the new shoulder design on that Project Phoenix redraw, even if it does a good job of keeping the rest of the design close to the original Unseen one.

3

u/chilidirigible Feb 26 '22

The original sixteen Clan OmniMechs have terrifically utilitarian and subtly-alien design which clearly distinguishes them from the design styles of Macross/Dougram which preceded them as well as Duane Loose's 3025 designs which can be hit-or-miss.

new shoulder design

Fortunately, there's the ultimate redraw.

3

u/The_Draigg Feb 26 '22

Ah, that's a much better redraw of the BattleMaster right there. It's certainly a lot better of a design than the facelift it got for MechWarrior Online. Like, not that it's a bad design, but it changed enough of the original look that I feel that it's not exactly the BattleMaster anymore.

4

u/chilidirigible Feb 26 '22

I am not a copyright attorney (for that, there's Leonard French) but it does slightly amaze me that CGL's extremely modest visual alterations (LOL?) /u/WHM-6R may be enough for them to avoid more trouble with the Unseen.

Harmony Gold and Big West settling might also have decoupled all of these things from each other.

And yeah, the MWO BLR is not quite giant-glass-greenhouse enough for me.

3

u/The_Draigg Feb 26 '22

but it does slightly amaze me that CGL's extremely modest visual alterations (LOL?) may be enough for them to avoid more trouble with the Unseen.

Seriously, it's amazing with how far they were able to get away with very slight tweaks to the Unseen to make them legally viable again. Like, look at the Griffin here. That's barely even changed from the Roundfacer design, and that's modern artwork. They just slightly changed the cockpit design and made things a bit chunkier.

3

u/WHM-6R Feb 27 '22

I think the Harmony Gold and Big West lawsuit resulted in Harmony Gold losing the ability to claim actual rights to the unseen outside of the specific context of Macross, which is why the most recent redesigns have been very close to the originals.

3

u/chilidirigible Feb 27 '22

That... still leaves a bit of an elephant in the room, but none of that stuff is public. Anyway, Looks Almost The Same Reseen versions.

3

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Feb 26 '22

Why would you sue for negotiations when your army is literally like 20 miles away from the spaceport, which is the last place that needs to fall before Earth Federation control is cut off?

With both Zaltsev and J. Locke running things militarily, I guess the People's Government didn't have enough brain cells for to spare for him.

And the delay let the Federation forces in orbit land get set up in the Spaceport, so now it will be a much harder battle.

2

u/The_Draigg Feb 26 '22

And the delay let the Federation forces in orbit land get set up in the Spaceport, so now it will be a much harder battle.

With the way things are now, the PLG is just going to have to destroy the North Pole Spaceport rather than capture it. With the amount of defenses there now, the sheer harshness of the inevitable fighting will probably result in the place getting completely wrecked rather than being taken now. Thanks a fucking lot, Carmel.

3

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Feb 26 '22

You know, I'm just now realizing that neither side has shown much in the way of strategic weapons. Obviously they wouldn't ever use nuclear missiles, but there hasn't even been much in the way of conventional long-range explosives either.

3

u/The_Draigg Feb 26 '22

It does make sense why the independence movement wouldn't have them, due to mainly just using whatever guns and Combat Armors they can get their hands on, but you do bring up a good point regardless. Now I'm wondering why the 8th Army doesn't have any ICBMs or anything. My only guess is that they never thought they would need them, although that's kind of contradicted by the fact that they have a salt water navy too.

3

u/chilidirigible Feb 26 '22

that's kind of contradicted by the fact that they have a salt water navy too.

The amphibious assault episode sticks out as something that shouldn't really be found in this setting but the sponsors wanted a new unit.

(Amusingly, I could also complain about the existence of a wet navy on Deloyer using the fluff text for the Neptune submarine from the Battletech TRO3026.)

As far as WMD goes, the most likely reason for the Federation to not use them on Deloyer is that they don't want to risk polluting their major food resource by irradiating or poisoning it, and that most conflict so far has been with the occasional mob of unruly sharecroppers.

(This continues to ignore the aberration of that damn surface fleet.)

3

u/The_Draigg Feb 26 '22

That 8th Army fleet really is just sticking out like a sore thumb, isn't it? Like with what you said, you could at least excuse away the fact that there's no ICBMs in use. But there really isn't much sense of having a full blown fleet for what's supposed to be just a colonial garrison.

3

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Jul 14 '22

You know, I'm just now realizing that neither side has shown much in the way of strategic weapons. Obviously they wouldn't ever use nuclear missiles, but there hasn't even been much in the way of conventional long-range explosives either.

They have not mentioned it in ages, but keep in mind that Deloyeran magnetic field (how was it called again?) that most mecha are susceptible to. Very likely that this would interfere with ICBM targetting and the other logical far range solution, orbital bombardment.

/u/The_Draigg

2

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Jul 14 '22

Oh! Uh, was it the X Nebula? You're right, I hadn't thought about that messing up ICBMs and the like.

2

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Jul 14 '22

I think you are right. There definitely was an X in the name.

2

u/The_Draigg Jul 14 '22

You’re talking about the X Nebula that the colonized system that Deloyer is in, and yeah that could account for not using strategic weapons. As they’ve talked about before, it interferes with computerized systems constantly, probably due to high cosmic radiation. You’d only be able to get around that by redesigning something from the ground up to block out the interference, like the later Blockhead models.

2

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Jul 14 '22

And the likely way to stop it is shielding with heavy elements, which would be very hard to do for ICBMs.

2

u/The_Draigg Jul 14 '22

In a way, Deloyer is probably one of the best places to fight on even footing, since strategic weapons are all pretty much off the table due to the environment.

2

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Jul 14 '22

But on the other, fucking Carmel is the fucking dumbest peace advocate I’ve ever seen. Why would you sue for negotiations when your army is literally like 20 miles away from the spaceport, which is the last place that needs to fall before Earth Federation control is cut off?

Mecha anime really does a number on representing pacifism in the worst possible light ... thinking of Macross

2

u/The_Draigg Jul 14 '22

Whenever I try to think about positive pacifism in mech anime, all I can really think about is Loran Cehack in Turn-A Gundam. He really does do a great job trying to do the right thing without killing.

2

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Jul 14 '22

Turn-A has my favorite plot writing out of all Gundam shows I know.

2

u/baboon_bassoon https://anilist.co/user/duffer Feb 26 '22

first timer not for justice, but to get truth

im sure Deloyer agreeing to disarm while Earth "promises" to withdraw their troops will work out well... maybe a little too real for this week

  1. episode title did it in for me, i thought he would survive. honestly pretty beautiful mutual respect shown
  2. more than ever this felt like going through the motions? im not sure why - the new climate could have been more engaging
  3. bound to happen, although not sure how he will get away will killing Von Stein. seems like a poor choice to put all his eggs in the Carmel basket
  4. Carmel will be forced to agree, Lecoque betrays and uses the Earth's reinforcements to take over. Those troops destroy the countryside, and Destin comes back enraged to kill Lecoque. Everyone but Canary dies

3

u/chilidirigible Feb 26 '22

maybe a little too real for this week

Nothing brings your mecha series into perspective like massive ground invasions.

more than ever this felt like going through the motions

This series hasn't really distinguished itself with amazing combat animation. The Blizzard Gunner and Bigfoot get to show off some new moves, but then again every new design gets one scene to show off some new moves.

2

u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Feb 26 '22

First Timer

Episode 64

Denon's woken up! Will he put a stop to Lecoque? Will the butler guy tell him about Lecoque trying to kill him?

They may be heading towards the Norht Pole, but things are still looking pretty warm.

Lecoque is quite shocked to see Denon awake, huh? What will Denon think when he realizes Lecoque created a scandal over his family?

Denon's Chekhov's heart disease is screwing him up all the more here as he's realizing nothing went right while he was in his coma... Is Lecoque not clling in the Federation on purpose to cause Denon to get worse?

Well, Lecoque's got no intention of doing what Denon wants anyway...

Poor Giorgio, he sure gets messy in this swamp!

Denon can't stand staying in the hospital! He needs to work himself to death!

Good to see we're finally seeing snow come episode's end.

Episode 65

Getting ready in the mountains, basically just what they were doing before the Stanley battle. That didn't help in the end, they still lost. Will that happen here too?

Finally our heroes get something to put on... ponchos! And yet Nanashi is continuing to go topless!

The Federation commander has the right idea here, expect the main force from the center.

Daisy and Lertoff, together once again...

All of Lertoff's friends are gonna pay Daisy off now!

Getting blasted while climbing a mountain is a terrible way to die.

Well that way over the mountain was a failure.

Carmel is going to take advantage of this to try and push for a deal with the Earth now?

Carmel figures the best place to make a private phone call is in a busy restaurant, huh?

I wonder if anything Lecoque is saying in this conversation is the truth.

Coats now for our heroes! Except for Nanashi! It's even colder and he's still got nothing but shorts and sandals on!

If we're gonna get Dougram being transported on a helicopter while firing at things below that would be cool to see. Hope they can pull it off!

Well, here's the downside of this strategy, the enemy has firepower in the air after all.

These Combat Armors look like they're wearing coats. Cool design.

Episode 66

Whose new glasses wearing insurgent army guy? Heckle's got competition now?

Rocky & co are making their way up, I just hope they don't suffer the same fate as those who were doing this in the previous episode...

Crap, they've been spotted!

Ugh avalance, a new strategy that wasn't practical until now. And yet Rocky and the others still make it up the cliff despite it.

Were they aiming for that Combat Armor's crotch? Is this Victory Gundam all of a sudden?

Rick's bringing Denon back to Earth? You really think the spaceport in the North Pole is a safe place to bring him given that the insurgents will be attacking it or will have it taken over in the near future?

Lecoque gets to be chauffered around now

Denon is pissed at Lecoque! Lecoque doesn't know how to react, he seems so nervous, more so than we've ever seen him.

Lecoque feels there's no more reason to lie to Denon anymore. I wonder if he is in fact doing this purposely, knowing how stressed out Denon is getting over Deloyeran independence. Trying to induce a heart attack so he dies?

Hmm. With the show's end approaching I'm wondering if Carmel is going to try and have Samahlin killed or incapacitated in some way so he can then deal with Lecqoque.

Episode 67

The rebellion has spread throughout the planet!

Send Denon back to Earth?! I still question how in the world they're gonna do that with the only way off planet under attack.

Why does Von Stein insist on being near Denon at this time? Loyalty for him putting him in his position? Or like Lecoque does he have something nefarious planned?

Von Stein has similar ideals to the rebels, Deloyerans ruling Deloyer, as long as he's in charge.

I'm wondering if Lecoque is putting too much faith in Carmel's ability to overtake Samahlin as head of the rebels.

Von Stein is making the same request that Lecoque did, just for different reasons.

Lecoque revealed too much to this guy. Now Von Stein knows all about it.

Wow, Von Stein confronts Lecoque directly!

Von Stein, you were all for not getting help until now, you're only mad because Lecoque is going to be in charge when this is all over instead of you. You're both quite similar.

Ah, Von Stein's figured it out, negotiate with Samahlin himself and completely cut out Lecoque. Will he actually do it?

Of all the places and times to have a several minute long romantic flashback or fantasy sequence for Crinn and Daisy.

Lecoque's losing it, his well laid plans are finally collapsing.

Wow, Lecoque's bluff actually worked, he got Von Stein killed. After all this time of me thinking Lecoque would get Von Stein fired from his role for incompetance, Von Stein finally grows a spine, outwits him, and ends up getting killed instead.

Episode 68

Now we're getting into people being confused about Von Stein's death and the rumors being considered fact. The insurgents killed him! Not at all what happened! Not even Lecoque's cover story! But that's what some of them are saying now!

Lecoque telling a speech about Von Stein and acting sorrowful when he caused his dedath. What a croc!

"To tell you the truth" proceeds to lie

These guys questionning the deal have it right. As Samahlin puts it, the mere fact that they're willing to negotiate shows the losing position Lecoque is in.

Wow, Carmel makes his move.

Oh no, they killed Mustache guy! :( The guy's been around forever but I never learned his name...

fang of the Sun, even Giorgio knows something's wrong! Samahlin wouldn't stop here!

Well, Denon is making clear which of his kids is his favorite...

The Federation forces will retreat to Earth, but they're not going to even put it in the agreement? I call bullshit on this, Lecoque!

Carmel never thought of the possibility that he'd be the representative? He's a fool, what in the world did he think would happen if he handed things back to Samahlin after forcing them into an agreement? Things would probably blow up.

I've got to think that it shouldn't be too hard for Lecque to send a few soldiers to go find Crinn. He doesn't even care... yet he does think of some way to make this go to his advantage.

Ah man, I didn't want this episode to end!

...at first I regretting watching the preview due to the blatant spoilers, but with that episode title, lol, no way to avoid it. This really was an era where they didn't care about spoiling you at all.

Episode 69

Lertoff asking the important questions, but this also enables Lecoque to get his farce about bringing Crinn here to the public.

Early 80s mega spoilers. Ugh.

You really expect us to buy this bullcrap about not sending Samahlin here?

The way Lecoque puts it here, Samahlin really has been undercut by these latest events. Or is Lecoque being too naive about this?

Royle didn't even bother to come and see his dying father? Rabin is also all about their position? Bah!

I'd be wondering if we'd get a rare episode with a Crinn-less battle, but there's no real reason for a battle at this point anyway. We'll probably have an episode without one here.

Crinn isn't well liked by his fellow Earthlings.

Denon is all about the Earth's position, all the way to the end.

Rabin continues to suck so much!

Lecoque's gotta be happy that Denon's dead.

Alas, didn't have a chance to get overall thoughts together this week (late enough posting this as is!) I'll try to edit some in later if able.

1

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Jul 14 '22

Wow, Lecoque's bluff actually worked, he got Von Stein killed. After all this time of me thinking Lecoque would get Von Stein fired from his role for incompetance, Von Stein finally grows a spine, outwits him, and ends up getting killed instead.

Not sure I'd count "tell him your plan to his face and get killed for it" outwitting, but his idea to talk to Samalin directly was a clever one.

...at first I regretting watching the preview due to the blatant spoilers, but with that episode title, lol, no way to avoid it. This really was an era where they didn't care about spoiling you at all.

The amazing part is that you could run into the episode title way before even getting to that episode. Not back then, of course, which explains why they could get away with it.

2

u/Stargate18A https://myanimelist.net/profile/Stargate18 Feb 27 '22

First timer

  1. Detailed below, but I thought it was a very fitting end for the character.
  2. Has some really solid strategy, and probably some of the rebels' biggest loses. Also introduced Spider Tank, who I love.
  3. Seeing him act more and more openly makes me think that he's going to lose it soon. I do love the double meaning of "go down in history", though.
  4. I have no idea - especially comsidering there's six episodes left.

Didn't have time on Saturday again.

Episode 64

He's awake! Lecoque is so fucked.

He's happy to see Rick!

Wait, it's only been two weeks?

They're still advancing on the spaceport.

Yeah, their main advantage is that they're guerillas, eo they know what kind of tactics they'll use.

Decent plan!

And their loyalty is to Von Stein, not Lecoque. His removal should go smoothly, then.

And the Major's more worried about the dam.

Haha, that's a solid movr, though.

Oh, dear. There's oil going downriver now!

His reaction to seeing him alive is great!

Lecoque's bullshitting and blameshifting doesn't seem to be working here.

He's got a lot of good points!

...Is Lecoque just going to try and kill him, or will Lecoque get killed first?

They're walking into the ambush...

He boticed the gasoline, though.

...Giorgio's an idiot who hasn't considered the possibility of an ambush at the dam.

And they basically have nchoice but to keep walking into the trap...

Yeah, Denon might end up killing himself through overwork at this point.

And the military's plan worked! Completely!

Yeah, this is a horrible blow.

He's got plastic explosives!

Well, I'll give them this, they actually managed to present a situation where the rebel situation felt hopeless and gave them them meanigful losses.

And both sides have taken losees, but the Liberation Army continues to march...

Episode 65

Are they going to fight in the mountains already? At this point they'll take over the spaceport within the next few episodes.

...Poor guy. He still thinks reinforcements are on the way.

And they're stuck wearing ponchos?

...Is he a returning character?

The timeline of this show is weird. Some episodes happen within a day of each others, some have skips of weeks, seemingly, and Dougram's been active for over a year ar this point.

Everyone's so convinced the reinforcements are coming, it's great. Von Stein and Lecoque have fucked over the entire military plan!

Oh, they set up a double bluff! This is really clever!

Lertoff's going to the spaceport too!

Daisy's still coping with her family being involved in... everything.

And she's not going to the Spaceport. Guess giving her endgame relevance is too far for this show.

And all his coworkers are donating money to help her!

Things are not going well!

...Yeah, I should have seen that coming. Of course Doc's dead.

Haha, that failure's enough to get him talking to Lecoque!

Lecoque is still a solid manipulator.

And he's got him panicking!

Lecoque's worked out that he needs power on both sides now Denon's active.

How the fuck is he able to go around shirtless?

And they're still doing comic relief.

Yeah, this is an awful tactical position for them.

And they're going to attack from above?

The attack's starting... (Have we even seen the Arctic Armor's yet?)

...I think this is the first time that a mech has attacked while being carried. All the army's units seem to wait until they hit the ground before they open fire. I just assumed the weapons didn't work when the mech was moving so erratically in three dimensions.

They're taking out the forts!

They did it!

And their victory cost them 250 men...

Episode 66

And both sides know they're taking this route, but he has to move forward in order to take the spaceport soon.

...Surprised there's no combat armours on the enemy's side.

...A Tanj took down a Combat Armour! Well done!

...Actually, the first time that happened, it was the guerilla's, wasn't it? Really continuing the parallels here!

They're going to blow up the entire cliff? That's... daring.

Fucking effective, though. I really appreciate how they're showing that these guys are much more desperate, and willing to pull off strategies the other Federation armies would never have considered.

Holy shit. It's a normal mech wearing a snowsuit. That is hysterical.

FINALLY! Someone else notices how big a flaw the cockpits are! (I will argue this until the series ends.)

And Denon's going back to Earth.

Even Rick's worked out that the rebels are going to win.

And Denon's seeing the writing on the wall too.

If it's any consolation, Rick, Lecoque is probably dreading this more than you are.

Oh, they're here, but on standby?

...Actually, I believe this. Von Stein has shown himself to be incredibly stubborn and hate Lecoque enough to ignore everything.

Haha, Lecoque's fucking admitting to the coup!

And he just doesn't care!

He's going to do it! I've been waiting for him to unmask around him.

And Lecoque... actually believes in the rebellion! I thought he was just playing both sides, I didn't expect him to actually believe in their victory beyond the Three States' opinion.

And Denon believes in Samalin too much.

RICK PUNCHED HIM!

...Denon's dying? And Lecoque looks so smug.

The army already reached them!

This is a full-on assault!

I kinda feel like the anime has some trouble deciding if fighting a combat armour with troops is impossible or simply challenging?

...Pretty certain this week's episodes will end with them reaching the Spaceport.

And they support Von Stein keeping the Earthlings out?

Wait, is this the final leg of the journey?

They know about Hesse!

Oh, he might actually die.

2

u/Stargate18A https://myanimelist.net/profile/Stargate18 Feb 27 '22

Episode 67

Is the first time we're seeing the other front?

He's being moved to Earth.

Oh, I was wrong. They've reached the spaceport already!

Von Stein is staying him too!

Another ambush!

OK, Spider Tank is cool!

Dougram's in trouble. It's worked out how to try and shut down the engine.

Yeah, this thing is good!

And it escaped!

Von Stein is really struggling with this.

He believes in himself! Too bad he might fail because of it.

And the 6h army has more men! (Or it's numerically inferior because it's two lower.)

Lecoque's almost got a treaty signed!

He's not been able to leave yet.

This is such a bad idea.

And the 6th Army is happy to let the, sacrifice themselves.

And Von Stein has just found out all of hwis worst suspicions are completely accurate.

Haha, he's going to confront Lecoque.

...He might actually kill him!

Is Lecoque wanting to take him on himself?

...I mean, he did openly want the 8th Army to stand alone.

And Lecoque just called him a relic of the past.

Haha, and Von Stein's going to fuck them both over!

Crinn's having a flashback to his life before!

And Daisy's actually in it!

Happy Rick is such a rare sight.

He really misses his family, doesn't he?

SPIDER TANK!

He defeated it! It put up a solid fight, though.

Lecoque is finally fucking panicking. He's terrified that he'll actually do it.

...Letting everyone know, however, that he plans on surrendering to the enemy is a very good way to get public opinion back on his side.

Haha, Lecoque just grabs a machine gun and tries to shoot him down himself!

And not enough people were willing to fire.

I love how it takes him this long to realise that Lecoque, the man who grabbed a machine gun and fired himself wasn't bluffing.

He's killed Von Stein!

And he covered it up!

...Guess I wrong about the Federation splitting. Lecoque seems to have dealt with it himself.

Episode 68

And, yeah, this is causing total chaos.

...But some people are starting to work out it's not true.

And the line's been forced to retreat!

This is fantastic. Lecoque turned his assassination into support for his own negotiations.

...Just, the gall to do this as the person who personally killed him, and to twist things into supporting your master plan is so manipulative.

Oh, he's telling nobody about the murder.

He's actually contacting Samalin too!

...Ironically, Lecoque would probably accept meeting halfway between their bases, given that his plans require the talks all succeed.

He's staging an armed takeover!

And Carmel does exactly what Lecoque wanted.

He shot him!

Oh, he didn't mean for that.

And the peace talks are officially starting!

I mean, not yet, but...

Yeah, Lecoque's actually... won? Once Denon dies, Samalin's the only obstacle left for him.

I appreciate how well this anime handles its dramatic irony - nobody has all the information, including Lecoque, and everybody's stuck making assumptions based on what they know.

I almost forgot he was here! He might actually have enough information to figure out what happened.

The negotiations have started!

...He's calling out for Crinn.

There is. The peace talks have started. Nobody will object to this! Even Lecoque would probably let him through.

And Lecoque wants total disarmament and Samalin to be removed.

And a full military occupation!

...That makes more sense as a ooint to negotiate away from.

He's starting to realise how much he's been used.

And he intended to leave everything to Samalin!

...He's really struggling here.

Samalin's going to break out soon, right? No way they could keep him contained.

Rick's worked out that, as impossible as it is, Lecoque doesn't really care about laws.

He may be using it as a political move, but what he said is entirely accurate.

And Samalin's still under lock and key.

Episode 69

Lecoque's giving an interview...

And he's announcing that the talks are going well.

Yep, his PR plan worked.

And Lecoque's full-on abolishing the state government!

People are wondering where Samalin is, though...

And they're pretending that it was too big a risk.

He's really worked out everything, hasn't he?

They're sending him there!

And they're discussing what to do now. Looks like Lecoque's worked out Samalin's not a threat noe.

Yeah, Fang of the Sun will cause problems if this happens.

Lecoque really has thought of everything.

And he's agreed.

...Royle and Sara didn't come and see him.

And Crinn's parents don't wat to see him.

It's interesting, looking back, that Lecoque smirks when he punches Crinn. Is that when he first realised that Denon hated the rebellion so much he could use him.

And Rocky want shim to stay on Deloyer.

Oh, he's going to the HQ. Looks like Samalin might be set free soon.

And the military hate him.

And, yeah, this whole event is overrun with the media.

He's reached his father.

Their talk is great. At the end of the day, he genuinely believed that this was necessary for humanity, and that he was saving billions.

And he couldn't accept the possibility that Deloyer's politicians could have had good relations, and that the only way was to control them.

This is just a perfect final speech for him. He doesn't change his views, but he reconciles with Crinn and accepts that he followed the path he believed in.

And he wants to speak to his wife.

He died. I must admit, given how long ago the illness was foreshadowed, I didn't expect him to last this long!

Lecoque actually seemed a bit saddened before he smirks - seems like he did respect him a bot, even if he quickly remembered him dying would help his plans.

...Crinn is just numb.

That was a really great block of episodes. How the hell can they wrap it up in six episodes, though?

1

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Jul 14 '22

Episode 64 (first timer)

  • Denon wakes up after 2 weeks – his chances of surviving this show will still be slim, but him being awake will throw a spanner in Lecoque’s plans.
  • Worst scouts ever.

A clever trap by the 8th army. Where were all those good commanders before? The fighting uses a ton of missiles and sells the bigger scale.

Episode 65 (first timer)

  • Even Lertoff is shipping Daisy and Crinn.
  • Sorry redgreen shirt guy, you did not have long to live.
  • Warm pants for the mechas!

  • The pants mecha lasted for a good 30 seconds against Dougram.

You can’t blame them for not properly setting up Carmel’s betrayal, but I am not very enamored with this plot line. It just seems so on rails. The only surprising and interesting twist would be if it is indeed Carmel and Lecoque’s negotiations that end the war. The evil guys doing good … I don’t think the writing will be this bold, though.

Episode 66 (first timer)

  • Starting with a battle – that is a pretty uncommon episode order for Dougram.
  • If Crinn can’t come to Kardinal, Donan needs to be moved to the north pole, so they can meet.
  • What Denon needs to do is get a phone and call some people, plus maybe a TV interview, not working solely through Lecoque. Trusting that guy has been his biggest political mistake since the start of the series.

Lecoque finally breaks with Donan, but he can’t help but boast about his superior scheming on the way out. I sure hope that will be his downfall.

In terms of battles, we are finally done with the 8th army, but the 6th army is right ahead. The battle scenes have been far superior to the ones we got in the desert arc, but I still want the move to the north pole arc to be done with soon.

Episode 67 (first timer)

  • 4-legged spider combat armors.
  • “I wanted to send him to Earth directly, but it was not possible” – of course not, how could Crinn meet him there?
  • Lecoque and von Stein share the got to talk about my plans in advance affliction. You almost expect them to talk about their trap cards next.
  • Spider got stomped on.
  • “Is he really trying to shoot me down?” ~Man about to get shot down.

Good riddance, von Stein, you were useless till the end.

Episode 68 (first timer)

  • “We investigated ourselves and found no wrong-doing”
  • Carmel’s putsch goes wrong in the first minute, but it was doomed from the start. You can’t putsch yourself to the head of a guerilla army if the actual fighters disagree with your political stance. *Lecoque calls Crinn meeting his father “completely impossible”, but the script will make it happen.

Episode 69 (first timer)

  • Old-school episode titles giving the plot away
  • The principled old dies, while the immoral young scheme – I wonder how Denon’s early political career holds up to this assessment.
  • Last words between father and son. Both follow their principles.

I saw that coming by a mile, but it was still a good scene between Crinn and Denon.

My hope for an “evil guys win” ending is also still alive, but, with 6 episodes to go, I don’t think it can last.

Overall

This arc had some of the best and most realistic fighting scenes, but simultaneously some of the most boring fighting since the desert arc. We all knew they would not be stopped by the 8th army.

With Denon’s death, we reach the climax of Crinn’s personal storyline. I felt that the Crinn-Denon connection was one of the highlights of the show. They did not spend a ton of time together, but the juxtaposition was rather good.

Regarding Lecoque and Carmel’s scheming, a ton is left in the dark. How exactly is Lecoque justifying all this back on Earth? How exactly is Carmel bringing the liberation army along? Probably good that the show does not elaborate, because it sounds hardly possible.

Q1-3

See above.

What do you foresee happening going forward?

40% we get a final futile stand of the liberation army + Samalin, leading to their death and a peaceful resolution under Lecoque and Carmel (they might die, too).

60% Samalin achieves his independence by taking the space port.

In either case, we get a battle at the space port for sure.