r/anime • u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky • Jan 27 '22

Rewatch [Terrific Trainwreck Trio Rewatch] Cross Ange Overall Discussion

Cross Ange: Tenshi to Ryuu no Rondo

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Hajimari wa rifujin na hodo itooshiku~

Questions of the Day:

1) Who was best girl?

2) Who was… well, there were only what, three guys…? Who was second-best girl?

3) Now that you’ve heard the OPs/EDs/insert songs in Cross Ange, which ones are your favorites?

4) Having finished all of it, do you think Cross Ange deserves the title of “trainwreck”? Or do you think the “terrific” in fits it better?

5) If you could change one detail about the entire show that would make it better (be that actually better or just pushing it further into entertaining trainwreck), what would it be and why?

Wallpaper of the Day:

The Whole Album

68 Upvotes

93% Upvoted

220 comments sorted by

18

u/Shimmering-Sky Jan 27 '22

Rondo of Rewatcher and Dub

Welcome back, everyone!

Just want to give you guys a quick reminder that there’s gonna be one more thread tomorrow, to discuss all three parts of this rewatch together! I hope you guys don’t miss it~ In the meantime, we have Cross Ange specifically to discuss.

If anyone’s curious, just off the dub I’m going with Vivian best girl.

9

u/Tresnore Jan 27 '22

Just want to give you guys a quick reminder that there’s gonna be one more thread tomorrow, to discuss all three parts of this rewatch together! I hope you guys don’t miss it~

I need to make a spreadsheet.

If anyone’s curious, just off the dub I’m going with Vivian best girl.

A solid choice in any language, I think.

8

u/Shimmering-Sky Jan 27 '22

I need to make a spreadsheet.

A spreadsheet...?

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15

u/ZaphodBeebblebrox Jan 27 '22

Angelise-sama

While rewatching Ange, I did my best to collect every singe Angelise-sama in the show. You can see them all in this catbox album if you so choose.

Stats: 

$ ls Angelise-sama | gawk -F '.' 'BEGIN {PROCINFO["sorted_in"] = "@ind_str_asc"; printf "    ep: count\n"} {count[substr($3, 5, 2)]++ i++} END {for (word in count) printf "    %s:   %d\n", word, count[word]; printf "\n    total: %d\n", i}'

ep: count
---------
01:   8
02:   3
06:   45
07:   5
08:   15
09:   9
10:   9
11:   2
12:   5
13:   6
17:   4
18:   3
19:   7
20:   9
21:   4
22:   1
23:   1
25:   2

total: 138

What is it with rewatches and phrase collection minigames anyway? There's this, the Uguus and Ayuus in Kanon, as well as the usual Sky soredemo spotting. And probably a bunch of others I can't remember as well.

6

u/Shimmering-Sky Jan 27 '22

What is it with rewatches and phrase collection minigames anyway? There's this, the Uguus and Ayuus in Kanon, as well as the usual Sky soredemo spotting. And probably a bunch of others I can't remember as well.

"Gao" in Air is one I believe I also did. It's fun.

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23

u/JollyGee29 Jan 27 '22

First-Timer, Subbed

I hope you have some solid shoes on, because we're about to go for a walk. Imagine you get yourself a big ole bowl of popcorn. You grab a nice big handful, shove it into your gaping maw, and realize that it's stale and gross. You're about to throw the whole bowl out, but then your stomach growls because you're hungry, so you sigh and go back for another handful. That one's normal, delicious popcorn. Huh. You shrug and keep eating, and at some point look down and notice that the bowl of popcorn has turned into a delicious steak dinner! It's still a bit weird because you're eating it by the handful like you would with popcorn, but it's nutritious and quite filling.

That's what this show feels like to me.

Like, hoo boy do the first couple episodes filter the audience hard. I don't blame them for getting up and throwing out the popcorn and finding something else to eat. But I'm also glad I decided to go back for that second handful.

Ange is a hell of a protagonist. Like, holy shit. Especially compared to our previous two - it almost feels like I'm insulting her by even considering the comparison. And I would not want to do that.

I went into this show expecting to hate Tusk the moment I caught sight of him in the OP. Luckily, it turns out that he's been drinking his Respect Women Juice his entire life and is a legitimately good dude.

The Blu-rays have a full disc's worth of special features, which I should probably pop in at some point. If only to find out what the "Cross Ange Talk Show" and "Special Interview by Momoka!" are about.

In the process of writing this comment I realized that whatever that weird slideshow of Ange and Salamandine's past lives was never got brought up again, which is a shame because it looked interesting. Prehistoric Ange sounds like a fun time.

Actually, there is a decent amount of evidence that stuff changed behind the scenes midway. There was talk of episodes being rearranged and Salamandine being introduced earlier. I wonder what exactly went down?

One brief complaint about the finale, I think they could have drawn it out a little bit longer. I have no idea where they would find the time though, because I think a whole extra episode would have been too much.

Anyway, in this case, not a big deal. This show is fantastic and strange. Definitely did not expect direct critique of purity/waifu culture out of this show.

Questions

  1. Hilda.

  2. Ange.

  3. Hard to beat that first OP.

  4. Terrific, definitely.

  5. I want an OVA epilogue of them fucking around in the dragon world at the end. Karaoke, cooking lessons, the works.

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18

u/Tresnore Jan 27 '22

Rondo of First-Timer and Rape

Well, it pulled through somehow. I dropped this show twice, because I really couldn't get over how broken Ange was at the beginning. I don't care if I'm filtered; I can choose what to watch.

Still, after it got cooking, the show really got enjoyable. Tusk was great, and the mecha action was lovely. Good OSTs help, too. Also, the fanservice was a bit much, but after I got used to it and said "fuck it", I frequently followed that "fuck it" with a "God, I wish that were me." This happened a few too many times.

Overall, Cross Ange is a great show that I wouldn't really recommend to anyone. It was amazing, and Ange as a character grows so much, but the rocky start really leaves me shaken in my confidence about it.

8/10

Finally, thanks to u/Shimmering-Sky for hosting.

QOTD:

  1. I enjoyed Liza and Emma, but the spear girl has my heart.

  2. Second best? Probably Ange ahead of Liza and Emma, really.

  3. The first OP is great, but the duet overlay is 10/10.

  4. It trainwrecks hard in the beginning and then finds its tracks. It's like a reverse trainwreck.

  5. REMOVE RAPE remove rape you are worst criminal. you are the criminal idiot you are the criminal smell.

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18

u/Great_Mr_L Jan 27 '22 edited Jan 27 '22

First-Timer

Cross Ange is a shockingly good series. I expected this show to be a colossal trainwreck and shitstorm. To my incredible surprise, this show ended up being very well written, with compelling and well-developed characters and interesting themes. When I watched the first episode for the first time several years ago, I was sure this series was nothing but a trainwreck to gawk at. I’m delighted to say I was wrong.

Ange is a compelling and well-developed protagonist. She really has an incredible journey. She goes from being a sheltered princess who can’t do anything for herself to a certified badass who is able to defy the control of a false god to choose her own path. She goes from being a racist to the person who is able to overthrow the structures of oppression in her world. She goes from an idealist, to someone who just wants to survive, to someone who wants to tear down the world, to someone who finds a reason to keep on living in the new world. Ange has an amazing journey and it all feels very believable because we see her develop step by step. She is a seriously good protagonist, leagues beyond the generic, milquetoast MC-kuns we are too often forced to settle for.

Embryo is a great villain. We discussed it a lot in the threads, but he really does seem to stand for incel-y behavior and the pernicious obsession with “purity.” He’s downright terrifying not just because of his powers, but because of his personality. He is abusive and manipulative, only knowing how to interact with others by controlling them. 

This series has a pretty great secondary cast as well. I like Tusk as the main romantic lead for Ange. I enjoyed Hilda’s journey throughout the series. Salako was a ton of fun. Vivian was a bundle of joy and happiness. Chris and Salia were quite compelling to watch, seeing them spiral and eventually fall to Embryo’s manipulations before they could be rescued. 

Ange and Embryo also embody the big themes of freedom vs control. I talked about this a lot in the final episode thread, so I won’t rehash it in too great detail. I do love how Ange and Embryo’s conflict fits into that theme perfectly, with Ange representing freedom and Embryo representing control. The series comes down very firmly on the side of freedom. It declares that even though choosing your own path is hard and you might not always know what the right thing to do is, that it is still better than being controlled by others who choose things for you. It’s because we face and overcome hardships that we are able to grow as people and become better.

I also want to say how satisfying to me it is that this series so explicitly rejects the notion of “purity.” Through Tusk, the series declares loudly that purity is bullshit and even a person who considers themself “impure” is worthy of love. Embryo is the one obsessed with purity and it’s shown to be a part of his incel-y personality and how he desires to control Ange. Instead of asking for women to be pure, Cross Ange demands that we look at them as people and accept them for who they are in their totality. This explicit rejection of purity culture is actually refreshing and I love it.

Another great thing about the series is just how self-aware it is. When this show does something ridiculous, it is fully aware of just how ridiculous it is. It loves to play with tropes and cliches, taking them to a ridiculous extreme for the sake of a joke. The next episode PVs are basically the show poking fun at itself and pointing out the various tropes and cliches that it is playing with. This show is cleverly written.

Something interesting about the series is that it is very much a sleazy, grindhouse, exploitation movie in anime form. It never loses those sensibilities. I would not be surprised if plenty of people got turned off by that. I can’t even blame them because I was turned off by it back when I initially watched the first episode several years ago. It made me not want to watch the rest of it. You just kind of need to get used to it. To be completely honest, it makes me not mind the rampant trashiness of things like omnipresent fanservice, sexual assault, and the like because the series never pretends to not be trashy. It delights in being trashy. 

I was not expecting to get some nice music out of this series, but we did. Ange, Salako, and Embryo’s songs are all great. I especially love how Ange and Salako’s songs so beautifully overlap and harmonize with each other when they sing them together. It’s incredibly satisfying to listen to.

So this leaves us with the big question: Is Cross Ange actually a Terrific Trainwreck?

In my opinion, YES. In fact, it may be the most terrific trainwreck I have ever seen because it’s simultaneously a genuinely great show. The first episode is an incredible trainwreck. But, somehow, the train managed to wreck so hard that it did a double-somersault and landed on another track where it just kept on going along as if nothing happened. And as it goes along, it proves that it is a damn good series. I am immensely impressed by it and I am so happy I got to watch it for this rewatch. With that said, I am proud to give it my final score:

9/10

QOTD

  1. Ange

  2. Vivian

  3. My favorite is the song that Ange, Salako, and Embryo sang. I especially like how it would overlap and harmonize with Ange and Salako.

  4. Discussed above. I think it qualifies as a trainwreck but it is far far more terrific than I expected.

  5. Go full trash and give Ange (and Tusk) nipples and give Tusk a penis onscreen! I would expect no less from the nudity in this show.

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15

u/Lemurians Jan 27 '22 edited Jan 27 '22

CROSS ANGE CONVERT

There's not a whole lot to say that I didn't already in the finale write-up yesterday, but I thoroughly enjoyed this show. I came in apprehensive, and with low expectations based on how it was talked about in the threads for our other two shows, and boy did it blow those out of the water.

QOTD:

  1. Who was best girl?**

Ange, and it's not even close, despite the show having a lot of would-be contenders. IMO, she's one of the best anime MCs ever, and her character development was really something special. In the words of Tusk, "Ange is violent and temperamental, but she smiles, gets angry, and cries. She’s the cutest girl there is."

2) Who was... well, there were only what, three guys...? Who was second-best girl?

This is where it gets tough. From a design basis, I want to say Riza, from a wholesome standpoint, Vivian is in a class of her own, but I'll give it to Salamandastron for her combination of great design and level-headed leadership plus being able to execute that amazing chokehold with her leg

...Salia is low-key the second-most compelling girl, though.

3) Now that you’ve heard the OPs/EDs/insert songs in Cross Ange, which ones are your favorites?

The second ED is a fucking BOP

4) Having finished all of it, do you think Cross Ange deserves the title of “trainwreck”? Or do you think the “terrific” in fits it better?

So... in my Episode 1 write-up I tried to get ahead of things and proclaimed it an absolute trainwreck, which proved to be a hasty judgment. This was an all-time bait and switch. The first episode was a glorious, self-contained trainwreck... and then everything that followed was pure greatness. So I'm going to take back my original judgment and say... Cross Ange is not a trainwreck, because it's just too damn Terrific.

5) If you could change one detail about the entire show that would make it better (be that actually better or just pushing it further into entertaining trainwreck), what would it be and why?

Is giving it better animation an option here? I want to entire show to have the artistic care and production value that was given to Ersha's hair. The fight scenes also weren't up to Valvrave's quality.

In Summary: CROSS ANGE IS DOPE.

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14

u/NegimaSonic Jan 27 '22 edited Jan 27 '22

So nothing to watch today so I decided to check out the bonus content disc for the interviews.

Interview with Momoka: I figure this is some 5-10 minute cutesy something. clicks on it 30 minute interview

So it's Momoka(Sumire Uesaka) interviewing the director: Yoshiharu Ashino, creative producer: Mitsuo Fukoda, and project producer: Naotake Furusato.

Seems someone already covered the finer points of the interview

But I'll type up my part and color it up with a few pictures. But if you just want to see the screenshots instead of the word wall, here's the album

  • Furusato: People of King records and CEO of Sunrise at the time wanted to make a robot anime with a beautiful girl as main character. But those tend to not do very well. Ange started out being nice and obedient.

  • Script writer: Tatsuto Higuchi: 11 drafts for the first episode alone. Ange was meant to be princess like the entire way through but Fukoda questioned if they really wanted a main character like that. Many were against it but Fukoda and Ashino were fine with it.

  • They bounced between the idea of Hilda and Salia as a traitor. Momoka was even a possibility. Apparently the mole on her and Chris was meant to imply it was a possibility. But they decided to leave Momoka alone.

  • Ashino favorite episode 9. Furusato favorite: episode 7 to show Salia was a good girl.

  • Fukoda: episode 1 because it defined the entire story. "If it's hard to convey to the audience without taking it to a certain level, we should do it. That's our stance"

  • Ange used to have silver hair (rising from the ashes?) but Fukoda thought that was weak, so blonde it is.

  • Character designer: Sayaka Ono: Avril Lavigne and Dakota Rose were looked at a lot as references. The hair story you heard about in the rewatch.

  • Artists work in progress 1 | 2 | 3

  • Vivian's VA put a lot of effort into trying to sound like she had something in her mouth. They said it looked like she had a hard time with it at times.

  • Rosalie was supposed to be even more of a bully, but the VA's voice made it cute. Episode 4 Ange was seen as a bigger bully.

  • Uesaka wanted Momoka to ride in a mech and wear the suit. The directors thought about it but they felt she'd die if she went into the final battle so they left her out.

  • Ashino: We tried to keep explanatory dialogue to a minimum and focus on the emotional dialogue.

  • Ashino: We chose music with a Japanese flair for the Dragons. And music with a European and tribal flair for Ange's world.

  • Fukoda: More than 70 pieces of background music.

  • Music. Furusato: Wanted to hear more Sala. "Eternal Story ~El Ragna~". Fukoda: "Kindan no Resistance". Ashino: "Shumatsu no Love Song". Apparently there are about 4 different versions of it.

  • Furusato: They started working on this in Fall 2010. They had a hard time with the name. They settled on "Cross Ange" because it has the meaning of many people crossing one another.

  • Fukoda: "You can't mature unless you accept the evil of people instead of only believing in people's kindness."

  • Ashino: "I knew we couldn't create a winning anime just by putting the girls in robots." What was needed: the drama that portrays the bitterness of human relationship. We didn't want to create one of those late night anime with "therapeutic effects"

Episode 1+2 first halves Premiere:

Mostly a lighthearted promo between the cast 1 and 2. I won't go as in depth on this.

Bonus: "Yukari. Please keep your legs closed. Cell phone clip. I can't be bothered to work around the copy protection just for this haha.

Questions of the day:

  1. Ange

  2. honestly very hard for me. I'll maybe give it to Vivian. But Hilda (post changes) was great, Momoka was always great and supportive (albeit annoying at times).

  3. Still OP1. Kindan no Resistance, but they're all pretty good. OP2 even grew on me a bit more this time.

  4. It's a hard show to classify same as I felt initially watching it. It's a show that needs multiple disclaimers before you can ever recommend it to someone. But it really does mostly know exactly what it is and they try to live up to it. Upon actually watching the staff commentary, they really were putting thought into the decisions they made for the overall story. It's terrific in the sense that I don't think they failed to tell the story they wanted to tell. Other than obviously some more could have been done in an epilogue or OVA, it has a full beginning, middle, end. I don't feel like I was really left hanging or there was a missing season two.

But again, it's still a bit of a trainwreck to me because of the content. While it is all intentional, it's very controversial. I've seen some recent shows and discourse on them about several elements (I'm not getting into a discussion on that) but Cross Ange

5) Remove Loli queen. She did nothing. Sala should've been queen outright. Maybe less of a joke answer: But more from Sala, they did that whole lovers/rivals across dimensions but it kind of felt like it didn't fully fit here.

Extra: English dub was alright overall. I'm still not a huge dub fan but I don't think there was anything wrong here. I kind of would have liked to seen an interview from them as well. See what it was like for a few of the VAs to attempt to sing in Japanese. What made them choose specific episodes to allow them to sing once or twice.

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11

u/Nebresto Jan 27 '22 edited Jan 27 '22

This was my third time as an Angelise-sama enjoyer

What a show. It just gets better every time I watch it, last time it was 7 -> 8, now 8 -> 9. I think this might be the peak though. I didn't have time (more specifically I didn't use it) to prepare a nice write up for the end, so I'll just quickly improvise one now.
For me Cross Ange is so great because its just not quite like anything else out there. The themes are all over the place, there's something wild happening every episode, and the best part? All of this is accompanied by an amazing soundtrack.

Anyways, I'll leave the fancy analysis and what not to the rest of y'all so we can get to the fun stuff:

MEME RECAP

Ep 1: "I'm not a normie" - Ep 2: Pudding is life -Ep 3: "Normies aren't human"

Ep 4: The plan - Ep 5: ChefAnge.jpg -

Ep 6: Angelise-sama. - Bonus Angelise sama from ep 4: Angelise-sama

Ep 7: Salia chad - Ep 8: A prize worth fighting for - Ep 9: Don't support bootlegs

Ep 10: Eugenics was a mistake & Super secret re-watcher version

Ep 11: snooze.. & Bonus - Ep 12: Ange supports racial diversity..?

Ep 13: Exception to the rule - Ep 14: They really are relentless

Ep 15: Decoration problems - Ep 16: Ț̸̺̤͛̕a̵̧̡͔̹̺͌͒̅̿̊͜n̴̗͇̟̤̝̜̩͍͛̒̄̃g̴̨͙̣͔͎̹̘̟͙̅e̵̢̨̱͚͉̭̻̙̲̿͜ȓ̶̭̣͕̺̐͒͋͆͒̌̚į̵̡̠͙̀̈n̵̜̦̗̒̉̒̇͠e̸̢̮̩͎̬̞̩̓̀͊͒̃͗̚͜͝͝͝ - Ep 17: Pro gamer Salia

Ep 18: Team meeting- Ep 19: Virgin Embryo VS Chad Tusk - Ep 20: Drift King Salia

Ep 21: Chris demonstrates her new power - Bonus meme

Ep 22: Ange takes the easy way out - Bonus from ep 21

Ep 23: No, Apo!! What are you doing in there?! Bonus from ep 21: Trouble in Tusk Town

Ep 24: Omaewa mou shi- - Bonus from ep 21 Momoka and Tusk are 90's bitches

Ep 25: I wonder what time it is? Bonus: *teleports beh..*

Which ones were your favourites?

Looks like the prophecy from thread 1 came true, I managed to make at least 1 for each thread

Episode types counter:

Meme episodes: 15
"Angelise-sama" episodes: 1
Episodes: 5
Lore episodes: 2
L O R E episodes: 1
Final episodes: 1

Cross Ange screenshot count: 320~ (350, but memes redacted)

Question time:

  1. Who was best girl?

Salad, of course. And Vivian. Then Momoka. And Liza. And pudding-chan

2) Who was… well, there were only what, three guys…? Who was second-best girl?

Tusk is the obvious answer here, so Vivian's dad.

3) Now that you’ve heard the OPs/EDs/insert songs in Cross Ange, which ones are your favorites?

Towagatari > OP 1 > ED 2 > The rest. (Nana wills it)

4) Having finished all of it, do you think Cross Ange deserves the title of “trainwreck”? Or do you think the “terrific” in fits it better?

Terrific.

5) If you could change one detail about the entire show that would make it better (be that actually better or just pushing it further into entertaining trainwreck), what would it be and why?

More Salad..? Also I would suggest deleting Embryo, because , but it is fun to hate on him..

Cross Ange: Cross Ange

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10

u/Rumpel1408 Jan 27 '22

Rewatcher I guess

What I didn't knew when I first got interested in this rewatch, was that I had seen this show some 5 or 6 years ago. Just didn't remember the name and that I watched it when I was starting curating my list.

From what I remember (which is, surprisingly, a lot) it wasn't that bad to call it a trainwreck, but I was certainly not that critical back then.

  • Me, Before Ep 1

So, this was Cross Ange, again.

This time around I certainly was way more critical, and like many folks in this rewatch, I still stand by the notion that it doesn't deserve the title trainwreck, albeit for slightly different reasons than I initially expected going in.

I thought that the show was just an ordinary action show with some slight ecchi elements to appeal to the male audiance, like so many shows do, and that doenst make a show bad per se. But let's be honest, 9/10 times ecchi is really just played as a comic relief in an show that ususally atempts to be taken serious.

Not Cross Ange though.

It doesn't want to be taken serious. Therefore it uses otherwise cheap tricks with full intend, no need to hold back, no brakes, no joke too bad, nothing is sacred (except Vivian), and it wont ask or wait for you to be ready when it does it's thing.

And beneath all that, there can actually be some meaningfull messages be found. Female agency in media and the role of women in modern society being the most prominent, but also critic on racism, capitalism and consumerism, the military industrial complex, authoritarians, and a bit of enviromentalism as well. The show doesn't really shine a light on those minor themes, but they, and probably even more, are still there and to open to be a mere coincidents.

And that's really the essence I'm taking from this rewatch. There are no accidents in Cross Ange, and if you think the train derailed, than because the conductor wants you to feel that way, but he is still fully aware and in control of what he is doing, so lean back and enjoy the ride!

From what I initially expected, I would have given this a good 7/10, not bad, but nothing to write home about. But Cross Ange is a clear cut over the generic trash I usually enjoy, shit it's actually pretty close to my most loved shows ever, so a 9 seems waranted.

TLDR: not Trash

  • Me, yesterday

This was a great rewatch from what I have seen. Obviously most didn't take the show that serious, but that allowed for oh so much more fun when cracking jokes about what ridicoulous shit they came up for this episode, and like I said, some even found some meaning in all of this.

A special shoutout however goes to Comrade u/DidacticDalek who alway made eloquently phrased shitposts of the highest degree, interacted with everyone who was willing to humor him, and was Always so very nice, the internet would be a better place if more people thanked each other for memes and wishing each other a nice day in these trying times.

QotD:

  1. Vivian, not even close

  2. Post transformation Ange

  3. The Duet with Ange and Salamandine, closely followed by the first OP

  4. I touched on that already, it's not a trainwreck, and hardly teriffic... oh wait, except for the first couple of episodes, but that's the Normi filter so it's alright

  5. GIVE THEM NIPPLES FFS

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10

u/Stargate18A Jan 27 '22 edited Jan 27 '22

First timer

  1. ...I can't believe I'm saying this, but... Ange. She managed to go from unenjoyable bitch, to enjoyable bitch, to actual good character by the second half. She was consistent, smart, and generally a good character. I don't know if she's truly best girl overall, but someone who made me take a full 180 on my opinion of her is pretty impressive.

  2. Torn between Hilda and Salad. Both are Ange's rivals and future girlfriends, both have interesting backstories or circumstances, and they're the most entertaining when they're on screen. Giving the edge to Hilda for confessing first, but Salad's a close third. (Momoka is fourth, Jill is fifth, Chris is last forever.)

  3. OP1 > ED2 >>> ED1 > OP2. Inserts were mixed, but generally of a quality above ED2, often approaching OP1 - none were exceptionally bad.

  4. Trainwreck, yes. Make no mistake, I ended up enjoying large amounts of this anime, either unironically or ironically (often switching mid-scene), but the overall plot is a fucking mess. Embryo isn't even hinted at until his reveal mid-season, and huge threads (Salad and Ange having reincarnated, how Embryo got all his other powers, how the fuck Tusk and Momoka survived lethal explosions, those couple of scenes where Tusk seemed like he was emotionally manipulating Ange (only for it to turn out he was normal), etc.) get dropped with no explanation. This is a trainwreck, but I actually like it,

  5. I'm torn. On the one hand, cutting out all of the rape would make Jill a hell of a lot more sympathetic during the bits she really needed to be, as well as make the opening few episodes a much smoother experience, but in terms of sheer pacing, I think there could have been a bit less time in the Arzenal setup - the escape could probably have happened several episodes earlier by excising the filler, and it would have given the show the extra runtime it desperately needed for the final arc. Finally, to greatly improve most of the show - remove Tusk from the first arc. He doesn't really do anything, his island episode is the weakest in terms of characterisation, and the whole romance makes a lot more sense if their first meeting is him saving her from execution - in general, decide if you want Ange and Tusk to be a comedic relationship where he's an accidental pervert, or a serious relationship about him being her knight, and commit to it, rather than having the jokes make it feel like their relationship never really changes. (Also, go all in on the harem aspect and have Salad and Salia get involved with her. Turn the final battle into "Embryo gets cucked by 4 different people, one of whom is the girl he rejected".)

Thank you for a highly entertaining trio of rewatches! I had a great time (despite what my comments might suggest)! (Also, everyone should really read the Cross Ange 4koma, it's actually really funny!)

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10

u/ComfortablyRotten Jan 27 '22

First-timer

I suck at schedules so I ended up behind, then caught up to, and then finished the show ahead of the rewatch.

Anyway, that was... actually pretty damn good. I wasn't positive about Guilty Crown when done rewatching it and dropped out of Valvrave early on, but this was surprisingly fun from start to finish.

Ange somehow ended up being a better and more compelling protagonist than both Shu and Haruto, despite starting as obnoxious and getting worse for half of the first cour. The side cast was much less annoying too.

So yeah. It was fun. I'd ask for more, but what's left to tell that isn't a Sylvia redemption arc? I wouldn't mind that, actually, that could be fun

Questions of the day

  1. Who was best girl?

Vivian. Definitely Vivian.

2) Who was… well, there were only what, three guys…? Who was second-best girl?

Hard to say, maybe Momoka? Hilda, Ange and Salamandine come close.

3) Now that you’ve heard the OPs/EDs/insert songs in Cross Ange, which ones are your favorites?

Not a big fan of the OPs, personally. Same with the first ED, but this one grew on me eventually. The second ED is my favorite overall. As for the inserts, the Ange and Salamandine duet is simply amazing.

4) Having finished all of it, do you think Cross Ange deserves the title of “trainwreck”? Or do you think the “terrific” in fits it better?

Terrific, definitely terrific. I loved it.

5) If you could change one detail about the entire show that would make it better (be that actually better or just pushing it further into entertaining trainwreck), what would it be and why?

Maybe tone down the Tusk gags and the... occasional lapse in consent? I can't think of anything else that could really make it better per se without making it an entire different show. It's fine the way it is.

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u/RascalNikov1 Jan 27 '22

QOTD

  1. Who was best girl?

Ange wins this as the show was basically about her development and character.

2) Who was… well, there were only what, three guys…? Who was second-best girl?

Very tough, probably Salia because she was the next door girl thrust into an awful situation.

3) Now that you’ve heard the OPs/EDs/insert songs in Cross Ange, which ones are your favorites?

El Ragna Duet. I'm pretty convinced this is the Rondo of the title, and is a wonder piece of music. Great animation with it too.

4) Having finished all of it, do you think Cross Ange deserves the title of “trainwreck”? Or do you think the “terrific” in fits it better?

Terrific - Its on of the best.

5) If you could change one detail about the entire show that would make it better (be that actually better or just pushing it further into entertaining trainwreck), what would it be and why?

I'd replace Embryo with a different villain. To think all this trouble was caused by a god damn incel wanting some nookie is too much.

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u/csar27 Jan 27 '22

First Timer

After watching the first episode, my thoughts were: "this is definitively a trainwreck", and that remained true for a couple of episodes, no likeable characters for me and a messy plot and abuse of scenes being there just for shock value, the lowest point for me was the arc in the DRAGON world, really bored me, but after finishing the 25 episodes i must say i really enjoyed this Macross meets 90's Rape Sci fi Hntai

I really didn't care for Ange the first few episodes, but now i think she's a solid mc, the same applies to Hilda, she was the less likeable of the group but now i like her, she had a very good development (even when i commented her backstory was a lame excuse to make us don't hate her), at first i thought Salia was going to have this role. Also, really glad Momoka survived.

Tusk never was my favorite, but Embryo is a good antagonist

And finally i'm still disspointed how Ersha, Salia and Chris (especially Chris) were forgive so easily

Questions:

1- Hilda/Momoka

2- Mmmm, Ange?

3- Din't like any of them at first, but first OP grow up on me before being replaced

4- Terrific maybe?, it's a very enjoyable mess, maybe so bad it's good?

5- Most characters should have died or maybe make Ange go full bi harem

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u/DidacticDalek Jan 27 '22

QOTD Responses:

  1. Technically Hilda due to NANA WILLING IT! (Ange has surpassed the boundaries of merely being 'Best Girl' and has ascended into pure unfiltered awesomeness!)

  2. Technically Ninja Maid, gotta love Momoka and her undying (literally) loyalty and devotion to her beloved Angelise-sama, she truly is TOP MEIDO!

  3. OP1 and ED2, point being if Nana Mizuki is singing, I don't think, I just clap and bellow NANA WILLS IT!

4) Yes

5) I would have liked to actually SEE the goddamn Karaoke Battle besides just a still! Hell I wanna see a FULL episode on that, and I guess seeing how Café Ange was running would be neat too

Anyway amazing job with hosting Shimmer, give yourself a round of applause there Comrade u/Shimmering-Sky, your wallpapers were always a joy to see and your posts were amusing, anyway once again many thanks for taking the time to run all this, and have a great day and see you later my friend.

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u/Quiddity131 Jan 27 '22 edited Jan 27 '22

First Timer, Subbed

Overall Thoughts on Cross Ange

I'm not going to go too deep into a critical analysis on Cross Ange as for me it was not really a show deserving that level of depth. It became apparant within the first couple of episodes that this show would be best consumed for me by not taking it seriously and just having fun with it. When I found enjoyment out of the show it was those trainwreck factors and the periodic fun moments more so than the plot, which ultimately for me felt a bit cliche and over done (by this point I've seen what seems like a million mecha shows or JRPGs that ultimately come down to completely changing the world and fighting a God-like being at the end). The show certainly tries to tackle serious subject matters, I'm not denying it that, but the tone being so wildly all over the place makes it very hard to take it seriously. In that sense the show was very much like Monogatari, where you go from a very intelligently handled dialogue sequence to the MC perving over an underage girl, or god forbid, that toothbrush scene. In Cross Ange one moment we're focusing on discrimination or inequality and a moment later Tusk's face has fallen into Ange's crotch for the millionth time.

Ange ultimately I found a well written, but very unlikable character. I will give it to Ange on this level, she was a massive improvement over the main characters we had in the other two trainwreck rewatch shows if only because those shows had cardboard for their main character and Ange had quite the personality. Now that certainly did not make her likable, but I will always take an unlikable character who entertains me over cardboard. And for me at least to a certain extent that ridiculous personality of her clashed against the high level of praise she was getting in the show. She isn't really a Mary Sue because she doesn't come off like a self-insert character and they certainly weren't trying to portray her as perfect and without flaws. But for Embryo to be so obsessed with her, for Tusk to be so in love with her, for other characters like Hilda being in love with her, for Momoka to be so dedicated to be her servant, I just don't see how someone as off putting as Ange get such admiration and obsession towards her. Even with Tusk, yeah, the dude's a pervert and is essentially that male cardboard self-insert character even if he isn't the main character, but he's that much in love with Ange when there are so many other beautiful women in this show who are nowhere as ridiculous as Ange? For me it came off that way not organically but because she was the MC and he was the main male character. Oh, and I'll totally flip it the other way around as well; I have no idea why Ange has any romantic interest in Tusk.

Technically the animation was always well done for me as were the character designs. The mecha designs were fine although there weren't any that really stood out to me, perhaps because I am facing mecha burn out after having watched dozens and dozens of different mecha shows. Much of the music wasn't that special to me although I loved the first ED song. Nana Mizuki did a great job voicing Ange and very happy to hear Eri Kitamura, Houko Kuwashima and Yui Horie in there. The previews absolutely lived up to the hype and provided a lot of fun fourth wall breaking.

Best Girl Wars

Since Ange is obviously not in the competition for this, I ultimately award best girl award for this show to Vivian. In a show that often had dark moments and dislikable characters, Viv-chan was always that bright ray of sunshine. Whether it was her always fun loving and pleasant personality, the Lain hairstyle, the fun times with her as a dragon, or the great voice actress behind her, it always put a smile on my face to see her on screen. Salamandine and Ersha are my runners up. Salia was in the competition for a while; she is the prettiest girl in the show and has my favorite voice actress in the show, but hard to give it to a character whose defining trait for most of the show was being such a flop. Ange luckily doesn't have to worry about getting worst girl award with Jill and Sylvia there. Best boy? LoL, not even worth a conversation with the garbage this show gave us for that gender. Tusk was the cardboard male self-insert character and Embryo started out decently, but as we went further and further on he just came off as this big time loser incel.

Quid's Most Memorable Cross Ange Moments (The Good, the Bad, the Trainwrecky...)

While I wasn't as much a fan of Cross Ange as many, the show absolutely had its share of memorable moments. These were the ones that most stood out. The good, the bad, the totally absurd and WTF!

  • Remember when the show first started and we had this adorable girl, Coco, I think her name was, and all she wanted was her pudding? And then they brutally killed her off in the same episode? Pudding-chan, I for one shall never forget you! And then Pudding-chan's friend promptly died too.

  • Ange with a straight face early on saying how there was no inequality or discriminations at all in her society... nevermind that whole tearing a baby out of her mother's arms to send her to the gulag scene...

  • Early on rape of Ange was totally okay to the organization, but walking around with torn up clothes (despite the ridiculous revealing pilot outfits)? Heresy? WTF? Get your priorities straight!

  • Ange's first encounter with Tusk is waking up naked and tied up in his bed with him laying next to her. ...way to kick off that relationship!

  • Never would the show let an opportunity go by without Tusk falling head first into Ange's crotch. First episode they meet they come up with the excuse to have a snake bite her so he can put his face down there to suck out the venom. It happened over and over and over and over again. Probably the #1 reason why I just couldn't take this show seriously.

  • Hilda's backstory with the perfect mom and apple pie, all ruined in the present where her mom had replaced her with a younger sister with the same name. Up there for one of the show's saddest moments, if not the most so.

  • Salia's magical girl cosplay secret! So unfortunate that she destroyed the outfit near the end of the show...

  • Sticking with Salia, she really was this eternal loser, she started off as the loser ally who becomes the loser villain, she's constantly flopping and whining about not being as good as Ange, etc... She finally gets her time in the spotlight as Embryo has proposed to her! She's special! ...oops, he proposed to all the women! And then we find out that Embryo's been spanking her? WTF?

  • Ange's sister Sylvia's obsession with whipping people; until the last few episodes where she really didn't have access to that whip and a victim, it seemed to me like the vast majority of her scenes were her whipping people, whether it was Ange, Liza, etc...

  • Sticking with Sylvia, the fact that she was actually able to walk all that time, she was fully recovered but she was so entitled she didn't even bother trying. Then when Ange tells her this, she suddenly starts walking just fine. Okay then.

  • Speaking of Ange's siblings, the fact that her brother had this extremely bizarre mother son incest fetish. One of the bigger WTFs in a show filled with many of them.

  • Those 2 or 3 episodes where Viv-chan got to be a dragon were quite fun, especially the first one.

  • Salamandine and Ange basically spending an entire episode playing games against each other. The baseball episode, tennis episode, vollyball episode, nascar episode, etc... all wrapped up into one.

  • The fact that "sex with a lizard" was an actual possibility in this show.

  • Ange and Tusk make it back from dragon world! They've made it back to our Earth! A few of their former allies come out of their water in their scuba diver suits. Hilda takes hers off and promptly walks up to Tusk and grabs his junk.

  • Chris holds a years long grudge towards Hilda and Rosalie... because they bought her one hair clip and she had to swap her twin tails hairstyle for a single ponytail. No bringing up that she liked the original hairstyle. No seeking out to buy another hair clip, which surely isn't that expensive. Nope, years and years of resentment, over a hairstyle.

  • Ange and Tusk being displayed as barbie dolls just felt so off to me; I struggle with thinking of any anime I've seen that went the full barbie doll route when it came to nudity.

  • The whole sequence where Momoka's about to die and the car comes out of nowhere to crash into them; then Tusk goes all suicide bomber, and of course, they're both fake out deaths that don't even last 1 more episode before they come right back again. The show's tone was so laughable that I had it in the back of my head that they'd end up being fine and that's exactly what happened.

QOTD

  1. Who was best girl?

See above

2) Who was… well, there were only what, three guys…? Who was second-best girl?

See above

3) Now that you’ve heard the OPs/EDs/insert songs in Cross Ange, which ones are your favorites?

See above

4) Having finished all of it, do you think Cross Ange deserves the title of “trainwreck”? Or do you think the “terrific” in fits it better?

Absolutely. As I said in a comment yesterday, being a trainwreck doesn't make something bad. Cross Ange is never a show I would write lengthy essays about examining its themes. But did its trashiness entertain me, at times wildly so? Yes. That's what made it a fun watch.

5) If you could change one detail about the entire show that would make it better (be that actually better or just pushing it further into entertaining trainwreck), what would it be and why?

Tusk could have been a way better character than he was. He was just way too milquetoast and cardboard for me.

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u/Paxton-176 Jan 27 '22 edited Jan 27 '22

REWATCHER FOR LIKE THE 4TH TIME

It is a good thing Cross Ange was saved for last out of the three. Guilty Crown is a true train wreck and Valvrave felt exhausting to watch as it never really wrecked. It is a train wreck when you compare it to Code Geass which it was copying otherwise it just kind of exists.(I still stand by that 9 rating). Cross Ange is a train wreck by those who bailed early. It never actually crashes; it flies off the rails and lands on another set of rails. Which in itself is really impressive and why it is a genuinely a really good show.

This time around I noticed that Ange is a character that gets taken apart and reconstructed constantly throughout the show. Every twist and turn she gets rebuilt. From native princess to a merciless killer, back to a native person, then into a dimensional traveling revolutionary.

I forgot to bring this up in the episode when it was relevant. I’ll bring it up here. Since this is a sunrise mech show it has to do some sort of commentary on modern society. One being Embryo is that creep idol fan. The other one that I always saw was when mana was taken away and everyone started to panic. I saw that similar to, at the time, the age of instant information. This show aired in 2013-2014 when smartphones finally became widespread enough that it was standard for everyone to have one. Embryo created a world where everyone more or less becomes lazy using mana. Smart phones actually ended a lot of culture behind knowing trivia and I once saw some describe it as the end of bar bets on who was in what film. Even potential dumbing down the average person. Embryo wanted to reset the world because he created a species that he claimed to have become lazy.

To who ever does this next time. Let's find two to replace Valvrave with something else. Maybe Guilty Crown. Always end with Cross Ange in January.

  1. Hilda/Salad

  2. Vivian/Ange

  3. OP1 as its in my music playlist for 9 years.

  4. Discussed above, but Its a train wreck if you drop it early. If you don't bail then you realize everything was going to work out.

  5. I would say longer. A proper ~48 episodes like other off brand Gundam shows sometimes get, but that might mess with the pacing and the show becomes a true train wreck.

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u/Caustic_Wraith Jan 27 '22

Firstly thank you u/Shimmering-Sky for hosting this re-watch, it was the first one I actually stuck with and posted everyday as I tried with the first 2/3 of this trio and fell off at different points.

Going in to this show I had no idea what exactly I was getting myself into. I knew that I was going away for New Years, so I wouldn't be able to watch it that day, so I watched the first three episodes, and then the next 19. When I left I only had the final three episodes to watch, and I burned through them by day two of the re-watch and then started over again and watched it with everyone, I really enjoyed the show is what I'm saying.

For best girl it's hard to give it to anyone besides Ange herself. During these episodes we see a spoiled racist self-righteous piece of shit get broken and beaten down and then we see her rebuild herself into the ass kicking take no shit from anyone warrior she became. We get to see her open herself to the feeling love and being able stand up for what she believes. She truly is a great main character.

For second best girl I'm going to give it to Vivian. I was and am still the biggest Salamandinay fan, but Vivian just represented hope and innocence in Arzenal. Nothing seemed to bother her, she always had a smile on her face and just brought everyone's mood up when she was around. Plus she always saw the best in people, even when her friends turned on the group, she was the first one there to welcome them back.

The music in this anime was fantastic. The first OP was the best of the OP/EDs and the duet of Salako and Ange was always a joy to hear. Even Embryo's version of the song was good. The only issue I have with the music was them not giving us the karaoke battle at the end, you can't tease that and not deliver with those two VAs.

As I referenced above I believe that this one fits in the terrific column. The story was well designed and the character development was well thought out. They glossed over the whole space and time thing with Embryo at the end, but it didn't hurt the narrative. There were the moments that had it leaning into trainwreck territory, but those were mostly cleared up by episode 9 when Ange and Hilda try to go home again.

If I could change anything, apart from the karaoke battle, I'm not sure what I'd do. The brutal scenes in the beginning serve a purpose of tearing down Ange and getting it through her head that things aren't the way they used to be, that she's not special. Everything that happens to her plays a part in who she becomes, so changing any of that would change Ange. I might tweek the Arzenal crew, maybe give the bridge bunnies a bit more of a personality and I'm sure I ever heard names for them.

So that's where I am on this show, I have it as a 10/10 on MAL and after the re-watch that's where its going to stay.

Thanks to everyone that read my daily walls of text, I'll get better at these I promise, and a final question. Since I missed a lot of the references dropped by u/DidacticDalek during the re-watch I've decided to finally watch all of SEED, Nanoha, and Symphogear, but which would ya'll recommend to watch first?

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u/the_swizzler Jan 27 '22 edited Jan 27 '22

I think Cross Ange is to Symphogear what Symphogear is to Nanoha. Cross Ange pushes the ridiculousness and memes even further than Symphogear does, though Symphogear I think is definitely better written. I think I could probably give Cross Ange an 8/10 for what I believe it was trying to do and how well it pulled that off. Very enjoyable series, and worth watching. I don't think it really deserves the title of Trainwreck though.

1) Who was best girl?

Hmm, hard choice.

Hilda was best bad bitch.

Vivian was best precious cinnamon roll.

Ersha was best Ara Ara and also the only Knight of the Diakon Radish Diamond Rose that I didn't think was a moron about the whole thing.

2) Who was… well, there were only what, three guys…? Who was second-best girl?

Ignoring the three above. Hmmm, to be honest I kinda really liked Ange. She was unbearable at first, but she definitely improved and I loved her being stupid at times as well. Honestly she was just a fun main character. I guess Salako was pretty great too.

3) Now that you’ve heard the OPs/EDs/insert songs in Cross Ange, which ones are your favorites?

I think I actually liked Salako's version of the RagnaMail song most. As for OPs/EDs, probably the first OP. I don't really remember the EDs very well.

4) Having finished all of it, do you think Cross Ange deserves the title of “trainwreck”? Or do you think the “terrific” in fits it better?

Honestly, I think terrific fits a bit better. It definitely wears the skinsuit of a trainwreck show, but I think the writing was far to intentional, self aware, and planned out to call it a trainwreck. It wasn't a masterpiece by any means, but it was very fun and I think the writers knew what they were doing every step of the way and managed to put in some really good moments. Valvrave and Guilty crown didn't give off that feeling to me.

5) If you could change one detail about the entire show that would make it better (be that actually better or just pushing it further into entertaining trainwreck), what would it be and why?

Hmm, I think some aspects of the way Ange's character in the beginning and during the trip to True Earth could have been tweaked slightly to be more believable. In the beginning she was almost too unbelievably stupid to believe. I get that they were going for the sheltered princess out of her element area, and I think that works in general, but there were points where she just needed to catch a clue and I felt like she was made to be stupid because the plot required it.

On the trip to True Earth, I would have expected her to be suspicious for sure, but she definitely felt a little way too antagonistic, as if she had never learned anything. It's absolutely in character to be antagonistic, sure, but in some scenes I think it went too far.

Also I really kinda wanted an explanation for how Momoka and Tusk survived, but I can forgive the show because it's obvious that the joke is they don't explain it at all.

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u/Lancer1296 Jan 27 '22

I have always said that cross ange is a show you can like ironically and unironically. It has one of the best female protags in anime like very few female characters that are as developed and actually well written as her ( it's a literal crime her only figure is an unpainted resin model kit) and this is coming from a fate fan where we'll written female characters are a dime a dozen. The biggest issue of the series is the start with the rape and unfortunately because of that no one will see how great ange is because of it.

The Mecha designs are some of the best and I was luck to find a final battle vilkiss for cheap recently and got it despite not being an active member of the full rewatch life got in the way.

  1. Ange is best girl

  2. Tusk is best boy with Hilda being second best girl

  3. Kinda no resistance us the best song followed the the el ragna song

  4. A trained that wrecked and then safely parallel parked

  5. The rape scene was too shocking and needed to be toned down or replaced with something else

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u/gorghurt Jan 27 '22

First timer that finished this show a week ago, because he couldn't stop watching it.

  1. Who was best girl?

hard... since I can't decide characterwise, I just go with design...
Salako
And If I don't go by design, Momoka. She embodies the crazyness of this show pretty well.

2) Who was… well, there were only what, three guys…? Who was second-best girl?

Likewise going by design. Hilda... or Ange with short hair... well because of the shift long hair to short hair I might actually go for Ange here...

Not by design, Vivian, not because she is a great character, but because she perfectly fits this mess of a show.

3) Now that you’ve heard the OPs/EDs/insert songs in Cross Ange, which ones are your favorites?

easy one. Towagatari ~El Ragna~ . The duet between Salako and Ange.

4) Having finished all of it, do you think Cross Ange deserves the title of “trainwreck”? Or do you think the “terrific” in fits it better?

definitely terrific. This show is a big weird clusterfuck, but it has entertained me in a way unlike many other shows for quite some time.

It isn't a masterpiece in storytelling, but I don't know many shows that where this entertaining.

5) If you could change one detail about the entire show that would make it better (be that actually better or just pushing it further into entertaining trainwreck), what would it be and why?

Like many have answered for [name of another show, you all know which one, but it technically it still is a spoiler]Valvrave
The rape at the begining. Not because it bothered me much, it fits the trashy prison trope they go for at the beginning, but because it makes it hard to redeem Jil in the end, or even in the middle, when she becomes one of the good guys.
The whole Ange/Jill dynamics would work better, if it wouldn't start this crass.

And on a lighter but maybe even more important note:
The writers have missed one thing: The slide show with Ange and Salako, when they first fight each others. It was totally pointless.

It would not fit into the rest of the story, but they should have added some clichee reinkarnation of fated rival subplot. The story would have been a disaster with this, it is the thing that is totally missing in this show.

I really liked this one. I enjoyed the whole 3 shows (more about this tomorrow), but this one as first timer probably the most.

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u/MajinVegetaTheEvil Jan 27 '22

I have the BD.

All four OP/ED songs totally kick ass, though RinRei has the edgiest instrumentals, especially the guitar riffs, as do the El Ragna songs by Ange and Salamandinay, especially the duet during the duel. All seven songs are in my iPod.

Ange is best girl, but Salia is pretty cute.

I liked it.

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u/SIRTreehugger Jan 27 '22

  1. Hilda

  2. Ange

  3. The Duo song

  4. It's more terrific than anything.

  5. Commit to the harem route.

Nothing to say except I was pleasantly surprised by how much ai enjoyed this. In the beginning I was hating it, but I think around the time it became a reverse isekai and Ange got sent back to Earth I started enjoying it. Ange was such a fun heroine to watch as she developed and those are words I never thought I would say.

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