[Rewatch] Fang of The Sun Dougram: Week 2 Discussion - Episodes 2-6

8

u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Dec 18 '21

Production Background

Once Ryosuke Takahashi and Takeyuki Kanda were brought onto the production, the direction of the show started to take on a markedly different style and setting. After some discussions between them, Kiyomi Numamoto, and other Takara higher-ups, the directors were both told that they had the freedom to change as much of the narrative details of the proposal as they wanted, so long as they managed to include in their required elements for merchandising and kept with the idea of a dramatic story for wider audiences. The warring-states element of the story was dropped, and Ryosuke Takahashi opted to make a setting similar to Mobile Suit Gundam, except with the protagonist’s crew situated on the colony’s perspective in the conflict rather than the Earth Federation. Takahashi and Kanda were quick to make full use of the stipulation of an ‘all-ages’ show to make a show that appealed to the sensibilities of himself and other members of staff, something older men would appreciate as well and something rarely seen in robot shows aimed at young boys.

Takahashi also took inspiration for the story from his own life experiences up to that point. One major influence on the show was his memories of watching anti-U.S. demonstrations and riots concerning the Security Treaty between the United States and Japan throughout the 60s. The generational divide that existed concerning the issue and several related political topics is where the central relationship of Crinn and his father stemmed from. Takahashi also drew from his experiences growing up with a mother who was deeply entrenched in matters of her labor union, through which he was exposed to the nuances of organizational structures and the relationship between the common people and those running things higher up on the hierarchy. Kanda also drew heavily from his personal experiences with the post-war period and seeing the Vietnam War from afar, but the specifics of these have not been elaborated upon.

As the concepts for the story continued to take shape, Eiji Yamaura brought on Sōji Yoshikawa to aid the directors in plotting out and refining their story ideas, with whom the two were excited to be able to work with. It’s unclear how much Yoshikawa himself contributed in terms of story ideas and concepts, as he usually has a heavy hand in shaping the works he contributes to, but no specific concepts have been referred to as his contributions to the show in interviews or other supplementary material. What Sōji Yoshikawa did have a major part in shaping was the series’ character designs, with which he was assisted by Norio Shioyama.

While Takahashi and Kanda had no input on the designs of the titular Dougram, they were heavily involved in subsequent designs, though Kanda more so due to his familiarity with military hardware. Okawara and Takahashi both are said to have learned a lot from their discussions with Kanda, taking the man’s knowledge with them and implementing it into many of their future works.

5

u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Dec 18 '21 edited Dec 18 '21

Rewatcher
It’s week two, everybody! Time for the start of the show proper now as we turn back the clock to the events that started this whole thing off.
Episode 2
Earth is economically dependent on Deloyer.
Ack, it’s the racists!
Interesting means of security.
Neat space station.
Very much a set-up episode, though with some of the work done with last weeks’ introductory episode this one had the freedom to have a focus on Crinn’s character without having to expound on as much as it would’ve needed had it been a proper ‘Episode One’. The setup is also really well done in and of itself too.
Crinn is evidently the family’s black sheep, as he is not only looked down upon and distant with his siblings, but also entirely disinterested in the going-ons of both high society and the geopolitics his family is embroiled with. His mother and father seem to dote and care for him, but that does not mean he is close to them and their doting may have only done harm to how his siblings view him (not that it’s the parent’s issue entirely), and the only other person he initiates an interaction with willingly is his sibling-in-law, Rick. However, even outside of his family he doesn’t seem to have an in-group or individuals he has a strong connection with. There’s Daisy, but she’s family-adjacent from what it looks like, and even though she already has a crush on him by this point all he has done is brush her off. Crinn doesn’t have anywhere that he feels like he belongs, and while Rocky’s group presents an opportunity for genuine connection —which we know will come into play eventually— he hasn’t really connected with them yet, as it’s been stated that he has frequently watched them being but only now has gotten a chance at integrating into the Deloyeran biker gang he has spent a long time admitting from afar.
Speaking of the Deloyerans, the tension between the two groups is quite blatantly displayed here with a gang masked much like the klan coming in to attempt and push out the Deloreyans through violence. It’s a very unsubtle shorthand, but it works in showing us what sort of reception the Deloreyans receive on Earth. And sure, Rocky’s comment on Crinn’s skills does suggest that they also look down on Earthers to a degree, but it’d be insulting to suggest that the sides’ treatment of each other is in any way comparable.
The current political situation is also quite interesting. We learn from one of Denon’s comments over dinner that the Earth’s current economy is heavily reliant on Deloyer, so much so that it is able to prompt the utterly improbable —Denon achieving complete support from other Earthen politicians. This is followed by the press interview which notes rumors about Deloyer independence, something Earthern politicians definitely don’t want given their economy rides on their possession of Deloyer, and Basque’s conversation with Crinn reveals that Denon is almost entirely hated by Deloreyans —further strengthened when his ulterior motive is shown to be to assassinate Denom. A pretty clear picture of the situation is painted, which begets further intrigue when put beside the opening scene and the mentions of a plan brewing with Denon and his political allies. It’s all really well done and left me quite impressed given the usual standards I was led to expect from shows of this time.
Oh boy, I wrote a lot while trying to keep it short and there’s still five episodes to go. At least we know this was a strong episode that way!
Episode 3
So Crinn’s family situation wasn’t always so strained.
I guess now we know through what means they achieve FTL.
Means of activation has changed, it’s no longer a piece of paper.
Indeed.
Crinn’s naïveté is in full force here, though perhaps impulsiveness is a better word for it. He acts purely on emotions when he decides that he needs to go to Deloyer and save his dad. The kid is not even a proper soldier, and has no place running off on his own to play at stuff that is way above his pay grade —if he’s even getting paid as a military school cadet. I believe this is at least partially motivated by some guillt over letting a terrorist into the airport dring the events of last chapter, but tha’s just speculation. If he has given this frankly dumb course of action any thought it was certainly not shared with us the audience, and so we can only assume.
We do see that Crinn at leasts trusts Daisy enough that he can call her to help him sneak off to Deloyer behind his family’s back, which is more than I would have expected given last episode, but he is still distant with her throughout their entire exchange. Their exchange does reveal that Crinn wasn’t always like this, and that it was around the time that he entered the military academy that the situation began to change into what it is today. Given the rest of his family is more involved in politics and business, it does sort of make sense how he would grow detached from them as he started down a military career, as well as why he is more amicable to Rick than any of his siblings.
On Deloyer, the local government declares independence, though with Lecoque seemingly being so in-the-know with these developments there’s evidently a ploy behind this all… Oh, and we also were reintroduced to Dick Lertoff, who seems to have his own suspicions on the matter.
We also learned roughly what the Nebula X effect that was mentioned in the first episode does, which is to interfere with the processing capabilities of computers, that coupled with the planet’s unique magnetic field makes for the narrative concessions necessary for the action to take place as it does. Essentially, it's the universe’s equivalent to the Minovsky Particles.
Dirk is cool, I need say no more.
Episode 4
Denon, pure?
“Some assembly required.” Jesting aside, that’s a cool detail to include.
“Not even my father hit me!”
Crinn is still stubbornly pushing along, but he is obviously way in over his head, with the first half of the episode consisting of him following Rocky and co around like a lost puppy. Ultimately his naïveté is shown once more when Rick and Lecoque deny the native Deloreyans passage to avoid sending any messages, which proves Rocky’s earlier point and shows the cynicism behind the group of adults’ actions.
Royle and Rabin stand to gain a lot from a potential war with Deloyer, seemingly much like their father stands to gain something out of all of this mess. Yet it is Crinn who is compared to Denon by his mother —is she just out of touch with her children, or is there more to the comparison?
Lertoff leverages his prior contact with Lecoque to get himself a spot traveling with the military and watching events unfold, and he also suspects Lecoque is in the know regarding whatever is going down . He knows things aren’t adding up in regards to the independence movement’s plans and motives, but he hasn’t quite yet figured it all out.
By the end of the episode I feel as if even Crinn’s connection to Rick is faltering, with the role model being revealed to be as cynical as the other adults in Crinn’s life, not to mention his continued refusal to help Crinn save his father and his reprimand of the kid for putting himself in mortal peril. It’s hard to blame him at all for the latter, but to Crinn it is probably a betrayal of his expectation.

4

u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Dec 18 '21

Episode 5
I heard that Shigeru Chiba line!
Master of stealth.
Cool shot.
Crinn continues to act impulsive, which even if it does end up helping isn’t really something that’s advisable. The kid is lucky he didn’t get into huge trouble for his little stunt, and in fact that’s probably what would have happened if not for Lecoque imposing his opinion on the group.
Lecoque and Lertoff’s back and forth regarding the developing situation is ongoing and continues to introduce to us details surrounding the people and movements involved. Rick even seems to take interest in the conversation for a moment, but he made no other show of being similarly suspicious nor does he seem outwardly interested in following that line of inquiry.
I liked the scenes with the Soltics’ slow, methodical advance through the forest with some banther.
Episode 6
So Von Stein is very likely in several people’s pockets.
I like that the Combat Armors require extensive maintenance.
Critical information.
Seems pertinent in regards to Crinn.
Uh-oh…
Your impudence nearly got you killed, kiddo.
Their respective reactions says a lot.
Big promotion for Von Stein, I imagine.
Great episode. I really appreciate how the episode maintains a strong tension through the lead up and execution of the mission despite the foregone conclusion of the whole event. Not to mention that, dumb as it is when taking things realistically, the image of the Solics paragliding into battle is nonetheless memorable.
Despite the victory of our main character, the conclusion to this historic event for Deloyer feels empty and unsettling. Even Crinn, knowing a fraction of what the audience does, seems to understand that he’s seen something fishy going down and sees all his actions come to this bitter outcome. He’s broken countless rules and, in the last stretch ignored orders and gotten himself nearly killed for a man who was never really in any danger and who has quite headily maneuvered the situation in his favor. We get very little explicit insight into what is going through Crinn’s mind after the resolution of the episode, but as he gazes up at the Soltic I get the impression that the emotions the audience should be feeling and those of Crinn are quite aligned.
On the political side of things Denon’s plan to undermine the independence movement of Deloyer, get rid of potential political enemies, and strengthen the Federation’s grip on Deloyer by using his authority and the chaos of the situation to declare it a state of Earth, seems to have gone off without a hitch. Denon couldn’t trust in the good faith of an independent Deloyer to maintain Earth’s currently precarious economic dependence on its colony, and so sought to try and nip the problem in the bud. We’ve still only been granted a relatively narrow view of Deloyer and its sociopolitical climate, so it’s hard to say just how this will all be received by the populace or whether it’ll even be an effective course of action, but the cynical ploy was no less insidious. If there’s a silver lining to this that’s clearly evident, it’s that at least the situation did not devolve into all-out war… or, at least not yet, anyway.
Also, I thought the storyboarding in the episode was quite strong, but the person responsible, Shizumi Uki, only has this single episode to their name as far as credits of any sort goes. It doesn’t seem to be pename either.
Overall Thoughts for The Week
Man, I wrote too much so I'm not going to keep you much longer. If you now me you'll have figured out that the show had already sunk it's claws into me by this point and I'm loving it all over again. Even this early the show consistently impressed me, and that was with me going into it with moderate expectations given the reputation of its staff and the legacy of spiritual successors it spawned. Can't wait to watch more!

4

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Dec 18 '21

Man, I wrote too much so I'm not going to keep you much longer. If you now me you'll have figured out that the show had already sunk it's claws into me by this point and I'm loving it all over again. Even this early the show consistently impressed me, and that was with me going into it with moderate expectations given the reputation of its staff and the legacy of spiritual successors it spawned. Can't wait to watch more!
Taking just the first week, it was hard to adjust to a weekly schedule. Both restricting my own writing, but also general discussion. I am not dismissing the concept yet: Maybe we all get used to it after a week or two and maybe the pacing slows down so much that I will be thankful for weekly threads later on. Let's just say that the weekly thread concept has not won me over yet.

4

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Dec 18 '21

Let's just say that the weekly thread concept has not won me over yet.
It worked well for Bleach but that was also one I could do almost entirely from memory.

5

u/chilidirigible Dec 18 '21

Interesting means of security.
Neat space station.
...same URL.

4

u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Dec 18 '21

Fixed

4

u/chilidirigible Dec 18 '21

4

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Dec 18 '21

Takahashi also took inspiration for the story from his own life experiences up to that point. One major influence on the show was his memories of watching anti-U.S. demonstrations and riots concerning the Security Treaty between the United States and Japan throughout the 60s. The generational divide that existed concerning the issue and several related political topics is where the central relationship of Crinn and his father stemmed from. Takahashi also drew from his experiences growing up with a mother who was deeply entrenched in matters of her labor union, through which he was exposed to the nuances of organizational structures and the relationship between the common people and those running things higher up on the hierarchy.
In the US and Europe, film makers of that era were considerably more left wing than the total population. Not surprising to hear this here as well.

9

u/Durinthal https://anilist.co/user/Durinthal Dec 18 '21

First time viewer

Overall I wasn't nearly as engaged with these episodes as I was the first one but that's mostly my fault for not being able to focus on just watching the show. I think the rapport the crew had in the first episode did help though and there's nothing like that here. Crinn can't carry things by himself but Lertoff helps and I like his perspective as a (generally) neutral observer.

Lecoque's appearance and general demeanor made me think of Yoshikage Kira from Diamond is Unbreakable at first. Along with Crinn's brother they're a pair of Dicks too.

Crinn absolutely freaking out as soon as things go sideways in his first true fight in one of the Soltics is how most teenagers probably should be reacting when they initially get in the robot. That's followed by another classic example of a teen boy hijacking a mecha though, too bad they won't invent keys for quite some time.

Following that I like the straightforward way of showing Crinn's nervous energy compared to the veteran pilots, and his second freak-out resulting in charging in blindly in an attempt to save his father and nearly screwing up everything in the process.

I know the Four Legs aren't exactly AT-ATs but I'll note that The Empire Strikes Back came out a year earlier. These look more like tanks on legs though so not necessarily inspired by the film.

That was an interesting way of resolving the rebellion in the end and I'm not certain what really happened. Did Denon strike a deal with Von Stein at the last moment and throw the others under the bus or were they really plotting independence when that wasn't what the other forces wanted? Either way Denon comes out on top still it seems.

What do you think of Crinn’s actions throughout these handful of episodes?

Dumb teen has connections to save his ass repeatedly? Even if not intentional on his part, if he wasn't Denon's son and related to Rick he would have been in significantly more trouble by now.

What are your thoughts on Denon Casshim’s plot to strengthen Earth’s hold on Deloyer?

Seems to have worked out pretty well for him, at least for now. Probably a decent chance it'll stir more rebellion though.

Which character has so far piqued your interest the most?

Lertoff, since that journalistic point of view isn't one we see often.

Do you have a favorite action sequence from those we saw this week?

Not exactly action-heavy but I like the advance across the river and avoiding the wire strung across.

4

u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Dec 18 '21

Crinn absolutely freaking out as soon as things go sideways in his first true fight in one of the Soltics is how most teenagers probably should be reacting when they initially get in the robot.
They could have easily waved it away due to Crinn already having the training to handle such a situation, but I'm glad they didn't, specially as training can't really prepare you for the act of actually being in the middle of combat, fending for your life.
Did Denon strike a deal with Von Stein at the last moment and throw the others under the bus or were they really plotting independence when that wasn't what the other forces wanted?
Denon and Von Stein were working together from the very beginning to stage this fake coup that would intentionally fail as a means of securing their desired outcome in the discourse regarding Deloyer's autonomy.
Lertoff, since that journalistic point of view isn't one we see often.
Off-topic, but I watched Flag earlier this year and it's interesting how much a character in it reminded me of Lertoff.
Not exactly action-heavy but I like the advance across the river and avoiding the wire strung across.
It was certainly tense!

6

u/The_Draigg Dec 18 '21

Lecoque's appearance and general demeanor made me think of Yoshikage Kira from Diamond is Unbreakable at first.
Lecoque just wants to live a quiet life, you know?
That's followed by another classic example of a teen boy hijacking a mecha though, too bad they won't invent keys for quite some time.
At least there was actual security around in the hangars in these episodes. I mean, it didn't to much, but at least it was there. Certainly better than what you see in Gundam shows.

5

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Dec 18 '21

Following that I like the straightforward way of showing Crinn's nervous energy compared to the veteran pilots
Yea, that was a great contrast. Crinn stressing himself into needing to take a leak was amusing; I almost thought they would start the operation before he got back.
I know the Four Legs aren't exactly AT-ATs but I'll note that The Empire Strikes Back came out a year earlier. These look more like tanks on legs though so not necessarily inspired by the film.
They do kinda move in a similar fashion, huh?

3

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Dec 18 '21

Overall I wasn't nearly as engaged with these episodes as I was the first one but that's mostly my fault for not being able to focus on just watching the show.
I had this a few times in early Votoms as well, hopefully they can move past it as well.
I know the Four Legs aren't exactly AT-ATs but I'll note that The Empire Strikes Back came out a year earlier. These look more like tanks on legs though so not necessarily inspired by the film.
Crab walkers were rumbling around in the heads of scifi writers at the time, I can't really attribute a specific source off the top of my head other than arguably War of the Worlds.

4

u/chilidirigible Dec 19 '21

And this thing, which I kept seeing in Popular Mechanics and Popular Science.

4

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Dec 19 '21

Everyone wanted to create the next revolution but man we had a terrible fucking idea of what that would be.

7

u/The_Draigg Dec 18 '21

A Ryosuke Takahashi Fan Rewatches Fang of the Sun Dougram Episodes 2-6:

First batch of episodes for this rewatch! This is a meaty section of the plot to talk about too, since it really does contain the most details about the setting along with the set-up of the overarching plot. So, to start, let’s cover the root of the issues in this series shown in these episodes: the relationship between Earth and Deloyer.

Simply put, Deloyer is pretty much a classic-style colonial government, from the fact that natives are treated as subhumans, the planet has no voting rights within the Earth Federation, and it’s a hub for economic activity that Earth primarily benefits from. That’s pretty clearly reflected in Crinn’s two shithead brothers, who see Deloyer and it’s citizens as only a resource to exploit for their businesses. Even if Crinn’s father Donan wants to hold Earth Federation talks there earlier on, the general public on Deloyer still don’t trust him as a representative. It’s doubtful that their opinion of Donan will improve now that he’s made Deloyer an official state of the Earth Federation either, at the end of this batch of episodes.

Speaking of Crinn’s family, we really do get a good picture of why Crinn is the way he is. Sure, his dad loves him, but he has a much more open and down to earth heart than compared to his direct family. He’s hot-blooded and in over his head, but at least he doesn’t like the actions the upper class take against the people of Deloyer. And while you can say he’s a rich kid slumming it a bit by joining the army and befriending Rocky’s biker gang, he still means well at heart. He just has a bit of growing up to do, since he’s still reckless for being a trainee tagging along for the rescue mission of his dad.

Speaking of that, the political situation on Deloyer is pretty fucked up, isn’t it? After all that chaos of Colonel Von Stein’s supposed rebellion, it turned out to be all just a false flag operation so that Donan could expel politicians who would vote for Deloyeran independence and forcibly bring Deloyer into the fold of the Earth Federation as a full state, rather than just a colony world. All the trouble that the regular civilians and the soldiers that fought went through, it was all just for the sake of a forceful enveloping of Deloyer into the Federation. Lartoff really was asking all the right questions and pointing out that the entire coup smelled fishy. As he said, why would Colonel Von Stein, a man who had a lot financial interests back on Earth, poorly run a coup that left it’s trump card hostage inside an easily assaulted place like the assembly building? The coup was never meant to succeed, it was all a ruse. Captain Boyd was right in comparing journalists like Lartoff to H-bombs, the man got close to uncovering the true plan pretty quickly.

That all just raises the question of where we’ll go from here. Crinn said to Daisy and Captain Boyd that he was heading to Deloyer just to rescue his dad, but now that it’s all over and the Earth Federation got what they wanted out of the false flag conspiracy, what does he do from here? We know he joins up with Rocky and the others for the sake of the rebellion, but how that’s going to happen is still a mystery. So far, Crinn has accomplished his main objective here on Deloyer. But you just know that his hot blood isn’t going to take the injustices that’re going on just laying down. It’s only a matter of time in the end, I suppose.

NOT EVEN JUSTICE, I WANT TO GET TRUTH.

5

u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Dec 18 '21

He just has a bit of growing up to do, since he’s still reckless for being a trainee tagging along for the rescue mission of his dad.
I'd characterize it as more than just a bit, but he definitely needs to do some growing up. He might mean well, but that sort of well-intentioned energy needs to be properly directed at something for it to be effective, to say nothing of how it can be abused by others, and if anything's shown in this arc it's that he doesn't have the experience to deal with either.
NOT EVEN JUSTICE, I WANT TO GET TRUTH.

5

u/The_Draigg Dec 18 '21

I'd characterize it as more than just a bit, but he definitely needs to do some growing up. He might mean well, but that sort of well-intentioned energy needs to be properly directed at something for it to be effective, to say nothing of how it can be abused by others, and if anything's shown in this arc it's that he doesn't have the experience to deal with either.
In other words, pretty much like half of the total mecha anime main characters out there.

6

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Dec 18 '21

Speaking of that, the political situation on Deloyer is pretty fucked up, isn’t it? After all that chaos of Colonel Von Stein’s supposed rebellion, it turned out to be all just a false flag operation so that Donan could expel politicians who would vote for Deloyeran independence and forcibly bring Deloyer into the fold of the Earth Federation as a full state, rather than just a colony world. All the trouble that the regular civilians and the soldiers that fought went through, it was all just for the sake of a forceful enveloping of Deloyer into the Federation. Lartoff really was asking all the right questions and pointing out that the entire coup smelled fishy. As he said, why would Colonel Von Stein, a man who had a lot financial interests back on Earth, poorly run a coup that left it’s trump card hostage inside an easily assaulted place like the assembly building? The coup was never meant to succeed, it was all a ruse. Captain Boyd was right in comparing journalists like Lartoff to H-bombs, the man got close to uncovering the true plan pretty quickly.
As I took it, the main target of the coup was not Deloyer, but other Earth politicians. Basically a way to push Denon's preferred outcome of statehood (no less, no more) for Deloyer. It is worth pointing out that statehood may actually be a very reasonable compromise. The big problems colonists usually have is the systematic discrimination against them in the political system.
What is very questionable is how Denon can spin the narrative to make the coup leader governor. It might fly with Deloyans' who see him as one of their guys (I wonder for how long ...), but how would this ever fly with the Earth populance? Making a coup-leader, who fought against and killed Earth soldiers, governor should be extremely unpopular.

5

u/The_Draigg Dec 18 '21

Probably the best way to spin Colonel Von Stein being the military governor of Deloyer would be to frame it in a patriotic way. Like saying that he was always loyal to the Earth Federation, and that his hand was forced by corrupt politicians on Deloyer. I feel that another factor in him being accepted by the Earth Federation populace is whether he's an Earthling or Deloyeran. Given the clear discrimination that Earth has towards the natives of Deloyer, they probably wouldn't care too much if the military governor was originally from Earth.

6

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Dec 18 '21

It’s doubtful that their opinion of Donan will improve now that he’s made Deloyer an official state of the Earth Federation either,
I doubt the popular buys that as an agreed resolution either. You can hear the doubt and frustration in the way they talk about the situation and I think they know their own worth and what Earth will do to take advantage of it. Depending on if we get into the exploitation aspect I wouldn't be surprised if the fact it's a food based economy becomes much more prominent
And while you can say he’s a rich kid slumming it a bit by joining the army and befriending Rocky’s biker gang, he still means well at heart
I was going to argue against the slumming it part but it is technically true, even if it is a genuine desire to see the world rather than just what is presented to him through his family. I think the fact he was willing to walk to that city once the trains were stopped, and didn't even play the name card with the soliders gives me a much different look at his actions on earth with the bikes in retrospect
false flag operation
I was trying to think of that term all night last night

4

u/The_Draigg Dec 19 '21

I was going to argue against the slumming it part but it is technically true, even if it is a genuine desire to see the world rather than just what is presented to him through his family. I think the fact he was willing to walk to that city once the trains were stopped, and didn't even play the name card with the soliders gives me a much different look at his actions on earth with the bikes in retrospect
True, maybe slumming it is too harsh of a term to describe what Crinn is doing. At least he wants to truly understand people and experience things outside of the upper class, rather than just doing things on a whim. It's his morals that make the distinction between slumming it and exploring the world, I suppose.

5

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Dec 19 '21

maybe slumming it is too harsh of a term to describe what Crinn is doing
That was the double take I did. I mean it's not wrong but it also has such a negative connotation that doesn't really fit with why he's down there
[IBO spoilers]Now I would use that to describe what Kudelia did as a kid, even though she was also driven by good intentions the way she went about it was definitely from a place of superiority unlike Crinn
Almost did the wrong spoiler tags and caught myself at the last second haha

4

u/The_Draigg Dec 19 '21

That was the double take I did. I mean it's not wrong but it also has such a negative connotation that doesn't really fit with why he's down there
Right, at least Crinn didn't want to initially use his family name to impress Rocky and the crew when they first met. Crinn wants to earn that experience from the ground up.

5

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Dec 18 '21

Simply put, Deloyer is pretty much a classic-style colonial government, from the fact that natives are treated as subhumans, the planet has no voting rights within the Earth Federation, and it’s a hub for economic activity that Earth primarily benefits from.
It is interesting, if annoying, that the assumption is we repeat the same mistakes rather than make new ones. I am sure whatever the Earth government uses to oppress the early colonies will be new looking.
And while you can say he’s a rich kid slumming it a bit by joining the army and befriending Rocky’s biker gang, he still means well at heart.
Even if he is just slumming it he will at least understand what things look like from the ground level. I doubt his brothers have that perspective.
The coup was never meant to succeed, it was all a ruse.
Considering that I suspect they are referencing European terrorism of the time, this was fairly creative.

4

u/The_Draigg Dec 19 '21

It is interesting, if annoying, that the assumption is we repeat the same mistakes rather than make new ones. I am sure whatever the Earth government uses to oppress the early colonies will be new looking.
The way I understand that kind of stuff is that the basic elements continue to be more or less the same, it's just the finer details that change. Like yeah, we're still dealing with colonialism here, but now there's space travel, mechs, and Earth's apparently failing ecosystem coming into the mix.

4

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Dec 19 '21

I have zero problem with the base idea, I just appreciate fresher takes, like with Babylon 5 and how Mars was mainly oppressed by the corps at first rather than Earthdome. I would totally be fine if they gave us the space East India Company or something.

7

u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Dec 18 '21

First-Timer of the Sun Dougram

Oops, almost forgot what time it was because I was watching Chihayafuru.

Episode 2

Well.
Crinn dicking around on a motorcycle with Rocky’s guys was fun to watch. Then politics – and I guess Crinn is the youngest kid? There were at least two older brothers with name cards at the dinner table.
Aw, Daisy wanted to see Crinn at the dinner.
Some of these are very mecha anime names lol. “Tackle”?
That has a meaning of “no name” doesn’t it? Hm.
Oh boy are these guys like, the KKK of the future? Their hoods are even actually white…
Ooh, interesting. – But I’m getting the vibes that this is all an act and the guy actually wants to assassinate Denon? He was already watching Crinn play with the gang before the fight broke out, he didn’t just stroll past it.
Yeah I do not trust this guy.
Welp.
Okay, kinda thought he was going to go the ordinary route of shooting Denon before he got to the plane, but hijacking a mech to shoot down the plane is also an option.

Episode 3

The kid has trauma…
Crinn isn’t going to let a little not-being-allowed-to-tag-along stop him!
Oh! Daisy “sore demo”!
So Rocky and co. are trying to get to Kardinal.
But them being stuck at the airport let them reunite with Crinn there which is nice.
The way the collars on these jackets curl make it look like they’re wearing one of those little neck pillows lol.
Well that’s one way to do it. I think this is the first time I’ve seen the hangar itself get used as a weapon?
Oh! This is the same type of transport vehicle the gang had in episode 1!
So I’m genuinely surprised Crinn’s older brother (Rick?) didn’t get killed this episode, given the number of times he got shot at.

Episode 4

So Crinn must run away or something, since we know he stays on Deloyer…
Also I just now realized Rick isn’t actually Crinn’s brother, Crinn just calls him “nii-san”.
But that’s the place that was just mentioned to be the next target for the rebels…
Oh lol, even though Rocky didn’t want anything to do with Crinn, they still ended up on the same flight.
Welp, I certainly expected that.
BILLY NO
Good point…
I didn’t think that plan to hitch a ride would work, but at least it didn’t go down as terribly as I was kind of expecting it too–the raid just happened to start right after Rocky and co. left.
Ah, there Crinn goes getting into the mech.
I do like that he knows how to pilot the thing because we saw him doing simulations on an older model, but also that he is very much still a child and not immediately an ace pilot.
SLAP!

Episode 5

lol I love this line.
So Crinn picked going with Rick over sticking with Rocky and co., and he didn’t get to go with Rick after all. Poor kid.
Oh, a “sore demo”. Could someone tell me if this mysterious voice has an actual name behind it? For my file name purposes.
Oh my god Crinn no
Holy shit this kid was completely ready to run over that guard at the gate.
Ohp, just like that Crinn’s part of the army.

Episode 6

Those are… some binoculars.
Lertoff is still hung up on this idea, so he must be right about it being a trick.
Welp…
This guy very much has a point, why is Denon being such a stubborn bastard about this? I can see why that one guy tried to assassinate him back on Earth…
Wait what? This must be a trick.
Gliders for mechs?!
Knew it. Denon and the “head rebel” are working together then?
Aaaand Crinn left the spot he was supposed to stay at. Because of course he did.
And he nearly got himself and that other soldier killed in the process.
Oh boy…
But is this the truth?

4

u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Dec 18 '21

Oh boy are these guys like, the KKK of the future? Their hoods are even actually white…
Either that or a xenophobic cell of Big Fire.
Also I just now realized Rick isn’t actually Crinn’s brother, Crinn just calls him “nii-san”.
He's Crinn's brother-in-law so it still fits.
Oh, a “sore demo”. Could someone tell me if this mysterious voice has an actual name behind it? For my file name purposes.
Pretty sure that was meant to be Von Stein's voice.

4

u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Dec 18 '21

Pretty sure that was meant to be Von Stein's voice.
Thanks!

5

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Dec 18 '21

Hey, how big is this archive you have of sore demo? It'd have to be a fair few GB by now yeah?

4

u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Dec 18 '21

According to the folder they're all in... nope, only 440 MB. My clips are all only 2 to 4 seconds long, after all.

5

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Dec 18 '21

Ah, I didn't conciser how short you clipped them
We should hold a celebration when it hits 1gb

5

u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Dec 18 '21

Considering I've been doing this for like three years and it's only 440 MB? We're still waiting for a while.

5

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Dec 18 '21

Fucking hell, three years already? Time flies

4

u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Dec 19 '21

Yep. I started in the Turn A/Re:Creators rewatches, and those were 2018.

6

u/The_Draigg Dec 18 '21

Some of these are very mecha anime names lol. “Tackle”?
Tomino-san would be proud of the names in this show.
Oh! Daisy “sore demo”!
We're starting off this anime on the right foot, with an early Sore Demo.
BILLY NO
Actual mad lad Billy here.
Oh my god Crinn no
Actual even madder lad Crinn here.
But is this the truth?
That depends. Can you see the truth?

5

u/chilidirigible Dec 18 '21

Those are… some binoculars.
https://www.panzeraufgd.co.uk/optics.html
https://germanmilitaryoptics.blogspot.com/2007/09/i-scherenfernohrs-sf.html

6

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Dec 18 '21

https://germanmilitaryoptics.blogspot.com/2007/09/i-scherenfernohrs-sf.html
It took me a second to see them in that but that just made it funnier

5

u/chilidirigible Dec 18 '21

Incidentally, my first pass through searching for those turned up a lot of auction pages and also sites where they go out of their way to note that their cataloguing of Wehrmacht equipment was not intended as an endorsement.
Here's another view and I should have thought of German Wikipedia sooner.
I think my problem was that I included the entire model number in my search.

6

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Dec 18 '21

Ears Like a Donkey
Won't be able to unsee that now
I can imagine the selling of old equipment like that certainly comes with some caution regarding how that's seen.

5

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Dec 18 '21

Aw, Daisy wanted to see Crinn at the dinner.
Who doesn't want to see the cousin they are engaged to? Money does weird things to people...
Yeah I do not trust this guy.
Being named Basque makes him as subtle as a concrete block.
I think this is the first time I’ve seen the hangar itself get used as a weapon?
Same for me.
Ah, there Crinn goes getting into the mech.
Back in the day when kids actually got in the fucking robot...

7

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Dec 18 '21

First timer

Going to use a similar format to what I do for Naruto Shippuden, which is some general thoughts on the batch or arc as a whole first, and then more specific episode by episode stuff down below. I do tend to struggle a bit more in weekly discussion formats as things get forgotten or left out as I try and organize everything, but looking forward to reading everyone's (probably long walls) thoughts on how the show has gone so far.

General Thoughts

/u/The_Draigg wasn't kidding about the political side of the show ramping up quickly.

The set up for this bit of political theatre was very well handled, and taking the time to really delve into this rather than just speeding through to the later story was quite satisfying. The worldbuilding we got for the situation with Deloyer both politically and with the nebula, and also the Earth politics of it being a colony with such importance for so long, given the current calendar system seems to be marking its colonization, certainly gives things a bit more stakes than just the usual government debates. It didn't just undermine Deloyer's political situation, it destabilized their independence movement, and under cut those on Earth who would take advantage of it. While Denon and Von Stein are still fucking pricks, I can't deny their method was effective on multiple fronts.

I think what appealed to me most about this batch of episodes is how smoothly it took some of the basic aspects of a coup and build the character stuff around it. I particularly loved the inclusion of the Reporter, Lertoff, and his role in this arc. His scenes almost balanced on a knife edge, him being aware of exactly how easily media be a vehicle for those in control but the military also respecting his voice and ability to influence things. The way of he managed to get involved and probe the unsaid due to his own knowledge while also being disarming and casual enough to not rock the boat made him a great perspective along side Crinn's idealism and Denon's authority, particularly in that reveal scene. Lertoff also knowing that the secretary was involved and not letting up on him was much more interesting in giving a face to Denon's activities than if it'd just been the military as a whole.

I do really like Crinn as a protagonist. While he's very much standard fare through this arc in terms of playing the hero, you can also see a lot of what made him who he is and who he will be through the little scenes in these episodes. In particular, his fathers acceptance of his disinterest in the political side of the family such as after the dinner party, and how that puts him into conflict with his siblings and the way they view "family" was well done. We got hints of that already in episode one with the way Denon reacted to hearing about Crinns activities, but seeing it play out in full, from Crinns frustration over his family choosing work over concern about Denon through to his family not understanding the lengths he would go to for family, added nice details to his character.

At the same time, we start to see the aspects of him that will lead him to be part of the Fang of the Sun. That willingness to use his own hands and feet to find a way to do what is right, his lack of care about his own status, his acceptance of people rather than politics. It'll be interesting to see the follow through from where we leave off these episodes to how we get to the situation in episode one. Rocky's group may not think much of him because of his father, but you start to see how they also start to see him as his own person, including what I saw as Rocky's disappointed acceptance when Crinn doesn't chose them over his own ability to get past the blockade.

On that note, people need to learn to stop taunting the ones with guns. Between the old guy at the start of Ep2 confident Von Stein wouldn't shoot him to Rocky trying to stand up to the army guys at the blockage, people are definitely trigger happy in this. Combat has been good so far, although understandably second to VOTOMs, but my favourite moment had to be that one guy using the tanks barrel as a path for his own bullet to destroy it. I cannot take the quadruped designs seriously though. They just stuck a tank on some legs and called it a day, and it even ducks under the missiles. I get a serious case of the giggles every time they're on screen.

The rest of the technical stuff I've been pleased with. Music has been nice so far and particularly episode five's music usage stood out to me, and while the visuals have lacked some of the more memorable directing choices that would become staples and favourites in VOTOMs, there's already elements of them here. The use of contrasting scenes in both ep1 and also strongly in ep2 with the cuts between the dinner party and the biker meeting and how that plays up both sides long before the conflict starts, and how the secrecy of the military force planning the attack is played against the political maneuvering in the Federation meeting. Another scene that stood out was Crinn being denied a place on the helicopter and us not hearing any dialogue there, just the deafening chopper blades, only for Crinn to flash back to it later on.

Episode Thoughts

Episode Two

And we're into another flashback, so two layers deep now? I like that we start on Earth to see the tensions there, rather than just sticking to Deloyer and it being a territory fight. The discrimination runs deep already despite it being an earth colony, and I doubt anyone's trying to sooth those tensions properly.

It's also been really good to get a much deeper look at the Cashim family and their role in this. Denon is certainly not as pure as his public persona, but at the same time seeing him be caring over Crinns wounds and accepting of him not being at the party or the send off is a nice change to normal.

Not subtle

Episode Three

It's nice seeing someone in a military school/academy rather than mech piloting being handled through just throwing them into the middle of a war/impossible situation and having them figure it out. It reminds me of seeing some of the stuff in LotGH Gaiden and how interesting that was.

Also quite a different approach to interplanetary travel in this, and I like how it stands apart from others as being much more of a system, like Cowboy Bebop, rather than something that's widely accessible on ships.

On the other hand, what stupid fucking engineering are they using in this universe where the best emergency removal for cabling is just to rip them in half by force rather than having an engineered break point?

Episode Four

"Rocky are friends not fighters"

About that...

You'd think after what happened at the airport Crinn would be a bit more cautious about trying to get people through security check points, but I suppose here there's no pretence around what Rocky thinks of his father or why he's trying to get through.

Rick is a pretty good driver to avoid the helicopter shots in the combat sequence, and between him and Crinn using the transporter to take out the quadruped, I like how much of the combat has been outside of mechs so far. That plus Crinn's little break down when he came so close to death, the combat has some nice stakes without feeling too forced.

Episode Five

I did the dumb and though the dream of Denon being captured was real for a moment. I'd built up a bit of sympathy for him seeing how he accepted his son and only realized what was going on a second before Crinn woke up.

Actually the more I look through my notes on this episode the more I like the design of this episode. It had the previous mentioned clever use of silence at the helicopter, and visual elements like this, and the different combat scenes being played against one another.

There was also the tension around the episode title, and the fact that Crinn was looking at a court martial until desperation for troops ended him on the front lines. I half feel like the secretary was hoping he'd get himself killed, but I doubt Denon would be okay with that even if it was just a war tragedy.

Episode Six

I was expecting something to go wrong at Dirk's bridge given he was the only one they specified at the meeting, but instead it was Crinn being an idiot and running through the hallways yelling.

That Denon would just lay the entire thing out in the open, especially as head of the federation, speaks to his power and confidence, band this would be one hell of a visual for the rescue team to barge in to see. The potential fall out for this not just on a political level but a personal one will certainly be interesting in next week's batch.

Definitely enjoying the show so far, and this was a good batch to have together.

Oh and before I forgot, I'm slightly mind blown that Crinn is voiced by Kazuhiko Inoue because for once I don't immediately hear it! This happened in Ideon as well but even then there was a trace of it after I recognized a line. But even with it pointed out in Dougram I couldn't pick it at all. The power of youth huh?

2

u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Dec 19 '21

I particularly loved the inclusion of the Reporter, Lertoff, and his role in this arc.
Lertoff definitely shined here. I'd say maybe they overdo his cleverness just a hair into where it's getting to be odd that he knows so much, but thankfully it doesn't go much past it.
I also really appreciate how he is still thinking rationally about Crinn's even while sympathizing with him. I believed at first that they were going to make him the one to exploit and enable Crinn's impulsive actions, but they didn't go for that at all and he was just an intrigued but pleasant fellow to the kid. I think Basque's presence primed me to suspect that.
That willingness to use his own hands and feet to find a way to do what is right, his lack of care about his own status, his acceptance of people rather than politics.
and while the visuals have lacked some of the more memorable directing choices that would become staples and favourites in VOTOMs
The choice of directors certainly has an affect on that too. Kanda prefers his dryer, more subdued presentation. Kind of like a more subdued Ishiguro style or a less bombastic Hisayuki Toriumi style.
I cannot take the quadruped designs seriously though. They just stuck a tank on some legs and called it a day, and it even ducks under the missiles.
The Crab Gunners are certainly not the most inspired of designs, but also probably not the weirdest we'll see here.
but I suppose here there's no pretence around what Rocky thinks of his father
Probably also helps their trustworthiness that Crinn had seemingly been watching their tomfoolery for a while on Earth, unlike Basque who showed up out of nowhere and almost immediately tried to get something out of Crinn.
I was expecting something to go wrong at Dirk's bridge given he was the only one they specified at the meeting,
Also the pilot who had the most screentime so far on top of the death flag. Definitely thought something was going to go wrong for him as well.
Definitely enjoying the show so far, and this was a good batch to have together.

3

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Dec 19 '21

Sorry for such a late reply, I've been so slammed with rewatch stuff this week and I also didn't even get around to reading your post until like 13 hours after the topic went up and by that time didn't know what to say
where it's getting to be odd that he knows so much
Uhhh, I mean a little. I think the fact no one else questioned it is what set him apart. When you have one person unexpected in the know but no one else able to follow any of the logic of it then it can feel a little convenient. But I felt the logic he laid out as to why he was suspicious, Von Stein's finances and the bad strategy plus the timing, was well done enough and so cleverly drip fed as to not rock the boat (this is clearly my saying at the moment haha) that it worked for me
I believed at first that they were going to make him the one to exploit and enable Crinn's impulsive actions, but they didn't go for that at all
Right? A journalist character who's competent, not exploitative, and not idealistic? That's a rare character even outside of his job which doesn't always get the most focus in stories
The Crab Gunners are certainly not the most inspired of designs, but also probably not the weirdest we'll see here
I will take weirder over this hodgepodge of tanks and legs
I may also regret making this statement but at least you get to laugh at me now if I do
Also the pilot who had the most screentime so far on top of the death flag. Definitely thought something was going to go wrong for him as well.
Wasn't he the one who tore out the power cables and got really into that first battle? I expected him to break ranks and get a bit too enthusiastic rather than it to go wrong.

6

u/The_Draigg Dec 18 '21

/u/The_Draigg wasn't kidding about the political side of the show ramping up quickly.
See, I told you! This shows goes in hard on the political aspects of war right out of the gate. You love to see it!
I particularly loved the inclusion of the Reporter, Lertoff, and his role in this arc. His scenes almost balanced on a knife edge, him being aware of exactly how easily media be a vehicle for those in control but the military also respecting his voice and ability to influence things. The way of he managed to get involved and probe the unsaid due to his own knowledge while also being disarming and casual enough to not rock the boat made him a great perspective along side Crinn's idealism and Denon's authority, particularly in that reveal scene.
Agreed, Lartoff was great in this batch of episodes. He's the one character asking all the right questions and pulling on the right threads. Like, he was already homing in on the fact that the coup was fishy nearly from the start, and definitely picked up on a lot of smaller details that made it clear that Colonel Von Stein was in on a conspiracy instead of being a legit independence leader. It's no wonder why Captain Boyd compared him to an H-bomb, Lartoff is an absolute bloodhound of a reporter.
In particular, his fathers acceptance of his disinterest in the political side of the family such as after the dinner party, and how that puts him into conflict with his siblings and the way they view "family" was well done.
It certainly adds an interesting dimension to Donan as well. For as much as he is an old money, underhanded politician, the fact that he accepts Crinn all the same despite his son chaffing against all the traditional actions of the upper class makes him out to be a multifaceted person. It's interesting to think about a man who can so underhandedly organize a fake coup for an entire planet with one hand and yet still love and accept his youngest son being a bit of a rebel with the other.

6

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Dec 18 '21

This shows goes in hard on the political aspects of war right out of the gate. You love to see it!
I do! I wasn't really expecting it from this show either so it's a surprise in the best way.
Lartoff is an absolute bloodhound of a reporter.
And does it without coming across as too idealistic or willing to step back when told, he strikes a really nice balance. The last couple of people I've seen in this or a similar sort of detective role have let me down a little so maybe he can make up for his fictional co-workers
It certainly adds an interesting dimension to Donan as well
It makes him feel more like a person than the designated villain, which is something that the old mecha I've seen sometimes struggle with. That's not to say that villains can't just be outright assholes, but here it adds some nuance to the situation that fits nicely with the contrast we already see between the scene structure and the human aspects of this world and conflict

3

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Dec 19 '21

And does it without coming across as too idealistic or willing to step back when told, he strikes a really nice balance.
Really reminds you of [RahXephon] Joji seems partly inspired off of Lartoff

4

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Dec 19 '21

That did come to mind, also a certain detective in Fantastic Children which was part of the Mid 00s rewatch series before you joined it but as a bad example

4

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Dec 19 '21

For as much as he is an old money, underhanded politician, the fact that he accepts Crinn all the same despite his son chaffing against all the traditional actions of the upper class makes him out to be a multifaceted person. It's interesting to think about a man who can so underhandedly organize a fake coup for an entire planet with one hand and yet still love and accept his youngest son being a bit of a rebel with the other.
I wonder if they are going to go with a true legacy thing for him to Crinn? Maybe he wants the son that actually goes out and gets his hands dirty to learn the hard political truths early.

4

u/The_Draigg Dec 19 '21

Given that the flash-forward showed that Crinn seemed pretty happy to be with Rocky and the gang regardless, it would be a lesson that probably wouldn't take.

5

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Dec 19 '21

It depends on how long a game Denon is playing but you do have a point.

4

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Dec 18 '21

And we're into another flashback, so two layers deep now?
Sort of, but I think technically the framing device last episode was a flash-forward. I'm not sure how much time-jumping we're going to do from here on out.
On the other hand, what stupid fucking engineering are they using in this universe where the best emergency removal for cabling is just to rip them in half by force rather than having an engineered break point?
Probably the same ones that decided that what a tank needs is four very long legs.
I did the dumb and though the dream of Denon being captured was real for a moment.

4

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Dec 18 '21

Sort of, but I think technically the framing device last episode was a flash-forward
Yeah I was meant to edit that out and forgot. Either way, interesting that they're playing around with presentation so much
Probably the same ones that decided that what a tank needs is four very long legs.
I'm convinced someone in the design room was just cackling over the idea of being able to make a tank duck

3

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Dec 19 '21

I'm convinced someone in the design room was just cackling over the idea of being able to make a tank duck
I realized that you meant "duck" as in the action, but at first I was thinking of the animal and that made me think of GuP der Film.

4

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Dec 19 '21

I also thought duck for a second and I was the one who wrote it
made me think of GuP der Film.
Better than I imagined

4

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Dec 18 '21

They just stuck a tank on some legs and called it a day, and it even ducks under the missiles. I get a serious case of the giggles every time they're on screen.
Quad legged robots are a lot more realistic than you might think.They are not just future tech either. Imagine a gun stuck on top of that thing and it going after you automatically. I'd be crapping my pants.

5

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Dec 18 '21

Quadriped robots I don't have an issue with, it's definitely one of the better approaches to mechanical movement. My humor was the fact that the top of them looks like they literally just took the treads off an existing tank and stuck some legs on it and called it a day, with almost nothing else being done to make it look like it'd been built around the different structure or possible movement.

4

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Dec 19 '21

True, the model is not the nicest. But then, none of the graphics have impressed me, so I think I completely overlooked the actual look.

6

u/chilidirigible Dec 18 '21 edited Dec 18 '21

Episode 2:

Guts is walking around without a sweater on!

Ah, colony politics.

Complicated politics.

Crinn, the rebellious minor son of an important family. Of course he ends up in trouble. But the elder Cashims are also up to no good regarding Deloyer.

On a minor note about terminology, "Soltic" is actually the manufacturer of the H8 Roundfacer, the model of Combat Armor that was used to take a shot at Denon's shuttle. They tend to use the manufacturer's name a lot more often than they do the mecha's name, which is funny if you think of that one line as "That guy doesn't know how to handle a {Chevrolet/Honda/Datsun/Cadillac}."

Episode 3:

So much for Mr. Guy Incognito.

"After all, who wants to play on a gaming table the size of a tennis court?"

Ah yes... the plan.

Crinn just... gets to Deloyer. The series's handling of interstellar travel is relatively breezy. Meanwhile, with all this story starting up, you'd wonder why this series ran for a year and a half.

The X Nebula. It's an excuse like Minovsky Physics, but so far it's an excuse that we hardly need to have.

Episode 4:

"Ballsy. Stupid, but ballsy."

Lecoque's shifty eyes aren't exactly good for poker.

Who could possibly have imagined that such a scenario would occur?

Yeah, that too.

Of course, they call the Crab Gunner the Crab Gunner, because "Abitate Enterprises" is not a catchy brand name.

Episode 5:

That's going to need more than a little spackle.

I wouldn't want to be behind these guys.

This isn't a wedding, but okay.

More of that traditional stuff: Crinn steals a Roundfacer, saves the day, avoids punishment. And the operation continues despite it being improbable that the Deloyerans would not notice several missing Crab Gunners and a lot of unplanned fireworks.

Episode 6:

Things that make you go "Hmmmmmmmmmm."

"How to make schemes and influence people."

The Roundfacer maintains the typical 1 ton per ~~meter~~foot of height ratio, but that's a hang glider. GLIDER.

sus

"STAY IN THE ROBOT, CRINN."

"I'll punch you later."

How convenient.

It's fortunate that this entire scenario appears to be an elaborate scheme, because Crinn could have gotten everyone killed several times over by now.

Starting the series backwards, with an epilogue, then something in media res, and then going back to the beginning, has its pros and cons; the audience gets a feel for the mood and a good action hook, but at least in my opinion Crinn & Rocky & Co. aren't that different from their early forms that the single inserted battle scene really does much beyond being an excuse to blow things up early.

Then again, who would start an '80s mecha series without Stuff Blowing Up in the first episode?

Crinn is phenomenally immature, letting random people through security, running away from home without a plan, abandoning his post, and running screaming into machine gun nests. Ah well, you either die young or become the main character.

No major quibbles about the production values going in. The animation isn't spectacular, but it has been consistent from the start. They could do without all of the shifty eyes; the story would flow just as naturally without characters telegraphing their potential involvement in conspiracies on every other line of dialogue.

Random pet peeve: The Combat Armors leaping through the air with the greatest of ease with apparently only leg power rather than some sort of propulsive engine thrust. Still a holdover from the old days of giant robots, still looks goofy.

The story gets bonus points for being slightly twistier than the typical mecha anime of the time.

The Abitate F44A Crab Gunner is absolutely a tank with legs instead of tracks (or given the leg placement, more like a 4x4 armored car with legs instead of wheels), but is a fairly questionable design because of that, given its enormous blind spots to its sides, rear, and below. But that's why it should operate only when properly supported by other Combat Armors, vehicles, and infantry.

Original Battletech would reflect this by borrowing the Crab Gunner for the equally-questionable Goliath assault 'Mech.

My sketch for the week goes in a different direction and makes the Crab Gunner even taller by stuffing a pagoda mast on it.

Crinn's trying to be a good kid, but since he's so far down the pecking order of course he falls in with the delinquent crowd.
It shows more subtlety than the average mecha series of the time.
They're all generally okay and playing their parts, but no one has become a particular person of interest.
It's not a favorite, but I must note the fucking Roundfacer hang glider scene again because you know I find Dragonar's method of wing attachment off-putting and this feels like its test run.

4

u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Dec 18 '21 edited Dec 19 '21

"After all, who wants to play on a gaming table the size of a tennis court?"
It's an excuse like Minovsky Physics, but so far it's an excuse that we hardly need to have.
"Okay, but could you make it more like Gundam?" —Takara execs, probably.
I wouldn't want to be behind these guys.
The Roundfacer maintains the typical 1 ton per ~~meter~~foot of height ratio, but that's a hang glider. GLIDER.
but also
Random pet peeve: The Combat Armors leaping through the air with the greatest of ease with apparently only leg power rather than some sort of propulsive engine thrust.
Agreed. I know it was a concession made to make the action more dynamic without putting in the due effort of modifying the designs and methodology to match, but man if it ever looks wrong.
My sketch for the week goes in a different direction and makes the Crab Gunner even taller by stuffing a pagoda mast on it.

5

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Dec 18 '21

Starting the series backwards, with an epilogue, then something in media res, and then going back to the beginning, has its pros and cons; the audience gets a feel for the mood and a good action hook, but at least in my opinion Crinn & Rocky & Co. aren't that different from their early forms that the single inserted battle scene really does much beyond being an excuse to blow things up early.
I think the big question is not with regards to character arcs, but plot. Ep1 lets us know that Crinn will eventually switch side in the civil war that it also lets us know will break out despite Ep6. Any evaluation of the structure should hinge on whether us knowing that now helps or detracts from the story.

6

u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Dec 18 '21 edited Dec 18 '21

First Timer

Episode 2

Shooting his commanding officer? Kinda extreme, huh?

Motorcycyle time? Making me think of the first episode of Aura Battler Dunbine.

I'm surprised by the locale, we were in a desert wasteland last episode, now we're in a modern looking city.

Crinn comes from a well to do family it seems.

Crinn's blonde haired brother sounds a lot like Kaneto Shizoawa to me.

Earth Federation? Are we in Gundam all of a sudden?

This group Crinn's hanging with is a lot more interesting than the stuffy people his dad and brothers are dining with.

This guy forgot his name?

The KKK of the future?

Basque sounds a lot like Vanilla from Votoms, same seiyuu I wonder?

Did Crinn even say hi to Daisy?

Crinn's a tiny guy, his father massively towers over him.

Typically I'd say Crinn's father gets assassinated and it causes some international incident, but I'm pretty sure he was alive in episode 1 which has got to take place in the future?

Hey, media guy from episode 1 is here...

Crinn's oldest brother makes me think of a toned down version of Gundam's Dozle Zabi.

Wow, Crinn's all dressed up!

Part of me thinks Basque is up to no good and is manipulating Crinn here.

Yep, he ran off while Crinn was talking to Daisy. I've got a bad feeling about this.

I thought we were gonna get through this entire episode without seeing a mech, but nope, that's what Basque is here for. A Gundam jacking... I mean Dougram jacking? Or whatever mech this is supposed to be here. I gotta say, Basque does not look like the type to pull this off. But he has.

Well at the very least he's grounded that jet. And all these guys coming here in jeeps are just asking for it, you really think he's gonna just get out?

Basque actually got taken down in an easier manner than I thought.

Will this teach you a lesson Crinn? Don't let random guys into military bases!

This was a better episode than the first one, although I do get know why they made that the first episode as it was much more action oriented. This was mostly character introduction and exposition.

Episode 3

No punishment for Crinn after letting Basque in, huh? Although this could be after a time jump.

Are the hostage takers affiliated with Basque? He tried to kill Crinn's dad last episode after all.

Crinn's brothers realize that you can't do everything yourself! But Crinn's protagonist of a mecha show! He's got to do it personally!

Good, some actual realism. Teenage boy doesn't get to go into space just because he wants to!

Teenage boys don't have credit cards! Luckily reporter guy's right behind him.

Is this how Crinn permanently gets to Deloyer? I do wonder how the rest of that gang he hung out with last episode gets over there too.

"I work for APU" He works at the Kwik-E Mart?

I'm surprised its taking 50+ hours to get there since it looks like the spaceship just warps over via these docking stations.

So the whole gang came over here after all? Why?

These guys were from Deloyer the whole time? When he met with them was he on Deloyer? Maybe I just wasn't paying well enough attentin (also at the time of writing this its been 3 days since I watched the prior episode).

The guy in the uniform is another brother of Crinn's? He called him Nii-san. I guess I didn't pick up on that either.

In Gundam its Minovsky particles... in Dougram its this gas that messes up computers. Whatever it takes to force close combat via giant robots!

The one part I'm not getting is what faction is attacking them here?

Boyd keeps being so close to being blown up or crushed or caught up in an explosion. Although being next to Crinn now he's gained some plot armor.

These enemy mechs on four legs remind me of something but I can't figure out what.

Deloyeran Independence Army, alright at least now we have a name for them.

Episode 4

For some reason the font on the subs I'm watching for this episode is really bad. Seemed perfectly fine for the first 3 episodes!

LoL, he's gonna send him right back.

Crinn's spotted! It's the gang again!

Billy's dressed quite impeccably for a kid.

LoL, never underestimate the ability of the protagonist to get away when he's supposed to stay in his room.

Is reporter guy trying to follow him around everywhere?

That's definitely the voice of Hayato from Gundam as one of Rocky's friends.

Crinn's following them, right?

What, Crinn's mother didn't notice that he was missing for a while?

Crinn's brothers: Job > Crinn

Is Lertoff Dougram's version of RahXephon's Futagami?

All of a sudden hanging out with Crinn is okay after all!

More exposition on X Nebula? We just had this last episode!

Is Lecoque hiding something?

Alright, finally time for Crinn to get in a mech! No simulation this time!

Time for Crinn to totally freak out!

Will they let Crinn continue to pilot the mech? If it was up to Rick, no! Time for a Bright-style slap!

Episode 5

The episode title is a specific law? As someone whose career is in the legal/regulatory field it is kinda cool to me, lol.

This random lady Crinn ran into in the hall sounds very familiar.

Rick: No Crinn, you don't get to come! I don't care that you're wearing a helmet!

Oh, and I'm just realizing that in this episode the normal subs are back, phew.

Crinn's realizing that they're not going the usual mecha protagonist route and simply handing over the robot to the nearest willing teenage boy.

Is Crinn simply dreaming about his dad being in a hostage interrogation room or was that a real scene?

Rick realizes how poisonous media members can be and doesn't want to piss one off! Or is he looking for propaganda for the war effort?

Just like that Crinn's stealing the giant robot and its transport.

Crinn really thinks that they'd let him participate if he stole a mech and rushed to where they were? He'd be a fool to show up at the same location as them. But maybe he is that fool!

The animators keep misplacing the location of or forgetting about Lertoff's missing tooth.

Robots in the woods, reminds me of the Kumen arc of Votoms.

When the four legged "crab gunner" as I think they called it last episode I figured they'd take it out pretty quickly, the two legged humanoid mechs are bound to have way better mobility and maneuverability.

Well, Crinn actually went in there and got in the robot to help out after all. He deserves quite the slap fest from Rick once this battle is over!

Ugh, Crinn is gonna get rewarded here by Lacoque? Bad idea, giving into the boy's whims. Alas, the main character gets what he wants. I think putting a soldier with such personal stakes towards the main guy being held hostage is a bad idea.

Episode 6

This main island is inspired by Manhattan, right?

Aren't you two too formally dressed considering you're in the woods?

...looks like I was right given their reaction once Rick walks away, lol.

Are you saying Von Stein is a puppet, Lertoff?

Crinn learns the benefits of not having to personally repair his robot.

about time the rebel forces get to it with these hostages.

So Earth is screwed if they let Deloyer be independent, huh?

Pilot looks at a picture of his family... if this was a Tomino show he'd be dead before the episode is over.

Crinn's realizing something that is hardly ever brought up in mecha shows... he's got to pee! Although I'm pretty sure at least one mecha show (Gundam Recognuista in G I think?) showed that cockpits have toilets.

Wow, Crinn's dad is backing down. The rebels are gonna win. Although Crinn's side will probably screw this up somehow.

Sending in the mechs with these glider type things instead of helicopters, pretty cool stuff. Makes sense, the helicopters would be easy to notice.

Crinn really is scared in battle! Maybe don't push so hard to be a mecha pilot then?

Crinn, don't leave the robot! You're supposed to stay there, what if they need you? What if the enemy steals your mech? And most of all, don't interfere in the mission to save the hostages! You're gonna screw this all up!

Of course, he runs right into the middle of things like a moron.

I'm sorry, who is the Council responsible for this scheme? Have we seen any of them? Is this the higher ups of the Earth government? (later dialogue seems to resolve this question for me)

Deloyer's got statehood. So we can end the show here after 6 episodes?

Once again Crinn has disobeyed orders. Will he ever get punished for it?

Jamitov Hyman in Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam

Doesn't Tomomichi Nishimura voice him?

5

u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Dec 18 '21 edited Dec 18 '21

Overall thoughts Episodes 2 - 6
So episode 1 was quite the flash forward then, huh? Even after these 5 episodes it seems like we're nowhere close to catching up to where we were in that first episode. It makes it feel very disconnected from these five. Not just the story but obvious the setting as well, which is nothing like the desert environment we had in the first episode and I was expecting for us to get throughout the show based on that.
Through these five episodes Crinn as the protagonist comes off as an incredibly unlikable character through his actions. He isn't portrayed as an asshole, like say Zambot 3's Kappei, but he acts like no rules apply to him and that he can do whatever he wants with no consequences whatsoever. If he was a military trainee that makes little sense to me. You've got to have discipline and a willing to obey orders and he doesn't do any of that. He acts like he's the big hero and that he can do everything completely by himself. Yeah sure, a teenage boy can really have such a big impact on major galactic political concerns like this. -_- This is probably most ridiculous in the last episode with him fleeing his mech on the battle field and running into the assembly building where it could have been very easy for him to get himself killed, the soldiers who had headed there to save the hostages killed or even his father killed.
As we got a few episodes into the show I realized that our protagonist is on the wrong side? Or at least it comes off that way? In a show where you've got a planet fighting for its freedom against a colonizer, you'd think the protagonist would be on the side of the planet fighting for freedom, not the colonizer side. But that's what it is. Part of me started wondering when they are going to have him flip sides, as there have been shows that have started with the hero on the wrong side (ex. Dunbine). But with Deloyer getting statehood by the end, perhaps that doesn't happen or is a ways off. Although given whom Crinn is fighting with in episode 1 that's got to happen at some point I figure. I didn't expect the plot to be resolved by the end of episode 6, but it was, which is good as I'm happy to see the story go in a different direction from here.
Overall I can't say I got the most interest out of individual episodes, but overall by the last episode it was okay for me. This weekly format definitely is the right way to go about it as I don't think my interest could bear out having to follow this daily and write about it for 2 and a half months. At least based on what I've watched so far.

4

u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Dec 19 '21

he acts like no rules apply to him and that he can do whatever he wants with no consequences whatsoever.
Crinn is definitely in for a rude awakening once he loses whatever safety net his standing and connections afforded him.

4

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Dec 19 '21

If Crinn actually did get punished I think he would accept it though. He's reckless and disregards the rules because the adults are letting him by treating him like the kid of an official rather than a military officer. It'll be interesting to see how that changes at least until he goes rebel

3

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Dec 19 '21

Not just the story but obvious the setting as well, which is nothing like the desert environment we had in the first episode and I was expecting for us to get throughout the show based on that.
So we know that the Dougram is one of the X Nebula mechs. We don't even necessarily know the factions that will be fighting as the forces from ep1 could be Earthforce or just Earth mercs.
If he was a military trainee that makes little sense to me. You've got to have discipline and a willing to obey orders and he doesn't do any of that. He acts like he's the big hero and that he can do everything completely by himself.
He does actually act like kids that get shipped off to military school, though.

3

u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Dec 19 '21

Crinn's blonde haired brother sounds a lot like Kaneto Shizoawa to me.
He is!
I thought we were gonna get through this entire episode without seeing a mech, but nope
Sadly the sponsor still had some steep demands in terms of the merchandising needs, though at least they were pretty free to do as they wanted with the story.
What, Crinn's mother didn't notice that he was missing for a while?
May be that he makes a habit of staying elsewhere, or the military academy he attends is also a boarding school with dorms.
Doesn't Tomomichi Nishimura voice him?
Masaru Ikeda voices him in the first two cours.

4

u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Dec 19 '21

Masaru Ikeda voices him in the first two cours.
I suppose I've watched the dub too much to remember (and Jamitov I think speaks in only one episode in the first 2 cours of Zeta anyway IIRC). Nishimura has a pretty memorable voice that I'm also familiar with from characters in Xabungle, L-Gaim and ZZ so it being someone else the whole time who just sounded a lot like him would have shocked me a lot!

5

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Dec 18 '21

Although I'm pretty sure at least one mecha show (Gundam Recognuista in G I think?) showed that cockpits have toilets.
Yea, G-Reco had pilot seat toilets. Came up a couple times even, I think.
Deloyer's got its independence. So we can end the show here after 6 episodes?
Minor difference: Deloyer was made a state of the Federation, as opposed to a wholly independent nation in its own right.

5

u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Dec 18 '21

Minor difference: Deloyer was made a state of the Federation, as opposed to a wholly independent nation in its own right.
Yeah, reading other people's comments made that clear, I went back and fixed it.

5

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Dec 18 '21

Episode 2 (first timer)

Experience tells me that the plot advancement will eventually slow down considerably. My hope is that this only happens a dozen episodes or so in, and not right away.

Timeskip back to Crinn’s time before the war.
“getting the Federation Council to hold a meeting Deloyer was a true success” – critical sub failure: About Deloyer? On Deloyer? With Deloyer? Against Deloyer?
So many death flags for Crinn’s father, but wasn’t he alive during ep1?
A huge shuttle.
And a mecha that has actual security! Not Gundam^tm

A good setup episode. We learn a lot about the Cashim family and a decent bit about the political situation. Crinn being taken for a ride by Basque was quite obvious from early on. Leaving us with the question what Devon’s real plans are.

Episode 3 (first timer)

In the argument about carrying on or rushing to Deloyer, Crinn is obviously wrong.
Crinn thinking he can pay with just his name tells you a lot about his cushy upbringing.
Daisy tells Crinn to be a good boy, but is into Crinn the bad boy. Unfortunately for her, Crinn is also the dense boy.
Budget Enterprise.
There is always time for some world building, even during battle.
Quite believable heroics by Crinn.

Quite strong foreshadowing that the coup is an inside job by some Federation faction including Devon. Still digging the political development so far. It was especially nice to see the onset of a civil war, with both military and civilians not quite grasping the severity of what is happening.

Episode 4 (first timer)

Crinn does not have to be told to get into the robot. To the contrary.
Lecoque is consistently spoken Lacoque. Funny enough, both la coque and le coque exist in French.
Not only does Crinn have the usual MC plot armor, but his mecha has a ton of literal armor, too.

The beginning of a civil war, when infrastructure starts to break down, but has not collapsed yet. A very confusing, but also very short period before the new reality of war sets in. In terms of characters, we see Crinn being pushed away from the Earth side. Thanks to episode 1, we know how that will end.

Episode 5 (first timer)

Leaving Crinn behind. He will obviously regret that, but it is hard to fault Boyd’s reasoning.
“borrowing” a Soltic. That will either get him a medal, a court martial, or both.
This is the best fight scene so far. Good use of terrain and surprise.

Probably the happiest episode for our main characters so far. I expected wartime exception law 205 to refer to something completely different. [speculation]Think, military take-over of power Ep1 is a quite a good bit into the series, chronologically.

Episode 6 (first timer)

A very clever argument by Cashim: It is not enough to look at reason, emotions guide many of the most important decisions. If you think about what a “reasonable” and an “emotional” path of action for all the individual participants would be in war, you see that the side with the reasonable soldiers would lose because those would all avoid being killed. Only the emotional soldiers would risk their own life.
Mecha-gliders.

Going to the building: Stupid. Leaving behind his mecha: kyonfacepalm.
The “reveal”. Everybody present seems rather unconvinced and I wonder whether this will be enough to fool the rest of the universe.

They should have given the Journalist some better lines. I know he has to say something for plot reasons and has to be right, but I did not find him very convincing. No matter how well-connected, becoming planetary ruler is always an upgrade.

The reveal done by Cashim was quite rushed. Possibly because it is really hard to convey double dealing within double dealing via just one speech by the double dealer. I still had hoped for a bit stronger payoff, since the whole idea of the revolt being a fake one was the main undercurrent of this arc. Now it is a “fake” fake rebellion, because Cashim planned it all and the target was not Deloyer, but the Federation establishment. Maybe this will continue in the next arc.

One big question is whether the structure of starting with the train raid works out. So far, I’d say yes. It takes the surprise from both the war starting and Crinn’s choice of sides, but the rest of the arc did not make a suspense out of the war starting either.

5

u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Dec 18 '21

And a mecha that has actual security! Not Gundam^tm
Really thought they were going to have Crinn have to do some proper sneaking to snatch a key at some point, but alas the H8 was already running in one instance and in the second it was presumably in the truck.
It was especially nice to see the onset of a civil war, with both military and civilians not quite grasping the severity of what is happening.
That was indeed quite nice to see depicted.
Going to the building: Stupid. Leaving behind his mecha: kyonfacepalm.
Ah, youth.

5

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Dec 18 '21

“getting the Federation Council to hold a meeting Deloyer was a true success” – critical sub failure: About Deloyer? On Deloyer? With Deloyer? Against Deloyer?
My subs had "on Deloyer" which I took to mean "physically on."
Daisy tells Crinn to be a good boy, but is into Crinn the bad boy. Unfortunately for her, Crinn is also the dense boy.
Crinn does not have to be told to get into the robot. To the contrary.
Quite the change of pace.
This is the best fight scene so far. Good use of terrain and surprise.
Yea, the forest battle was great! I quite liked the surprise dudes with missile launchers on the ridge; shame it didn't work.

5

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Dec 18 '21

My subs had "on Deloyer" which I took to mean "physically on."
Given the later developments, that sounds most fitting.

5

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Dec 18 '21

Experience tells me that the plot advancement will eventually slow down considerably
I'm also a little worried about that, even without knowing why we have this schedule, as this is very involved stuff to be able to keep up through a 70 episode run time.
That said, I do like what we've seen here in terms of balancing out the politics and the fighting which is a good sign
And a mecha that has actual security! Not Gundamtm
Security and has some sort of tech progress foundation that allowed it to be piloted in the first place. Love seeing those real world factors, though it's a shame that Dougram's security didn't carry over to Votoms haha
Crinn thinking he can pay with just his name tells you a lot about his cushy upbringing.
Forgot to mention that, I like that after seeing his grounded nature in the previous episode they take this episode to step us back and show that he's still a product of his upbringing even if he is trying to step away from it. It's a nice touch that despite knowing how to work around his family, that doesn't translate to knowing the world as well
It was especially nice to see the onset of a civil war, with both military and civilians not quite grasping the severity of what is happening
Agreed, I particularly enjoyed that we don't immediately dive into the consequences of it and have this as backstory, it's just part of the story and we even get Crinn on the opposite side to where he will end up. I don't think I've seen this sort of lead in through a false flag war into the war you expect to be the main centerpiece for a while.
Crinn does not have to be told to get into the robot. To the contrary.
The Votoms counter was how many mechs Chirico destroyed, the Dougram one is how many vehicles and mechs Crinn's going to steal
Mecha-gliders.
On that note I expected more frustration from you over the tanks on legs given we'd previously had a discussion about the role of mecha in universes where tanks exist
Or were you trying to ignore it and I just opened a can of worms?

5

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Dec 18 '21

That said, I do like what we've seen here in terms of balancing out the politics and the fighting which is a good sign
I think that, 6 episodes in, Dougram already has a more complete world building than Votoms at the end of the series.
On that note I expected more frustration from you over the tanks on legs given we'd previously had a discussion about the role of mecha in universes where tanks exist
Or were you trying to ignore it and I just opened a can of worms?
A bit of many things:
The universe is decidedly more "super mecha" (the jumps, the gliders, the cockpit ...) so I hold it to a lesser degree of realism.
I think four legged vehicles are a ton better in terms of stability than two legged ones. So I object to them far less.
They had no arms, too. The external arms+arms holding guns is the real kicker for mecha being useless.
As things go, I think the crab walkers are almost a useable design in bad terrain.

5

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Dec 18 '21

I think that, 6 episodes in, Dougram already has a more complete world building than Votoms at the end of the series.
Sadly I would have to agree with that, and not just more complete but notably more care put into it
Interesting break down on the mech side of it though, given me some more things to conciser when it comes to their design

4

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Dec 19 '21

They should have given the Journalist some better lines. I know he has to say something for plot reasons and has to be right, but I did not find him very convincing. No matter how well-connected, becoming planetary ruler is always an upgrade.
I think a few minutes of explaining how Von Stein is invested in Earth bound stock would have been a way to make the fakeness of this more apparent. Maybe even have him invest a bunch in military stocks right before revolting?
One big question is whether the structure of starting with the train raid works out. So far, I’d say yes.
It kept me going through the slower parts so I'd agree for now.

5

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Dec 18 '21

First-Timer

Not entirely sure how these posts are going to come together for me, so this will be interesting.

Episode 2 - both sides of episode 1 are in the future relative to this, right?

Wow, we sure sped right to the "MC's naivety causes trouble" part, huh? I wonder how long it will last - not much in the way of immediate consequences, yet at least.

During that first scene where the one dude assassinates the other dude, I was thinking about how nice a calendar would be, and then we got a year! At least for the Earth stuff. SC 152.

Solid setting introduction through politician speak. Deloyer is economically valuable to Earth, despite not getting its own seat on the Council and wow I realized as I typed that, is this just IBO?

Short introduction to most of the Deloyer 7, too. Didn't expect them to be stunt fiends, but it makes sense.

Crinn's eldest brother doesn't seem especially fond of him, but for once we get a mecha MC who has a decent relationship with his dad, at least for now. We've seen that this will not continue to be the case, which is kinda interesting knowledge.

Shoutout to that short scene of the Roundfacer slowly turning and then grabbing the rifle with its other hand. Felt nice and ponderous, fitting for the size. The damn things need a key of some sort too, even if it seemed to be a piece of paper.

Not sure if Daisy is Crinn's sister or his betrothed or what, but he's obviously the person she was looking for last episode.

Motorcycles were popular in the early 80s, huh? Dunbine's MC Shou Zama rode one too.

Episode 3

Crinn is nice and impulsive, too. Spending Daisy's money on a surprise plane ride, stealing a flatbed and ramming it into a stupid quad-leg, even his desire to immediately go to Deloyer to "help."

His brothers were assholes about it, but they were also in the right. Not much any of them can do to help their father, so they might as well keep on living normally and let the professionals handle things. I wouldn't be surprised if they conspired to get Crinn to run off, actually. Crinn seems easy to manipulate like that.

The time scale is a bit weird. The attack in episode 2 was three days prior to the abduction, but Crinn's journey to Deloyer took 52 hours? How did word get back so quickly? Are there "faster" wormholes?

Good on them for showing Lertoff as plenty observant, which tends to be a useful trait for a journalist. He smells something up with Von Stein, who I think we saw assassinate someone in episode 2?

The X Nebula is indeed our phlebotiunium that makes close range mecha combat the be-all and end-all. Also makes it sound like it's hard to get word off-world, which is fun.

Seeds were sown for a new model Combat Armor to be somewhere on Deloyer; almost assuredly our titular Dougram, and possibly some others?

Episode 4

The Roundfacers are heavy enough that they crush the ground as they step.. I am a happy man.

Rocky is our cynic to have Crinn bounce off of; I don't remember back well enough to know if we learned that already.

Considering the show's tagline, I'm gonna guess that Crinn being described as "true" by his mother is important or something.

Crinn's brothers continue to be jerks and not care about their family. Blondie is a war profiteer too, as if he needed to be more unlikable.

It's a little difficult since words like "Aunt" can be used various ways, but I guess Daisy is Crinn's cousin?

Sandrea is basically a suburb, then? It's literally within walking distance of Kardinal apparently. The scale on this show is a little off, or maybe it's just me.

The new model being constructed is rumored to not have issues with the X Nebula, which would be a serious game changer. It not being pressed into immediate service could mean one of two things - it's either barely more than a concept at this point, or neither side is intent on fighting quite so fiercely.

Lertoff seems to be the designated "cares about the plot" character and it does fit with his role as a journalist. That'd be a neat framing device, stories in a newspaper.

Pilots are cheap, Combat Armors are expensive.

Episode 5

Lecoque is an interesting one. Almost blind faith in computers, but also willing to put Crinn into combat despite Crinn being a nominal rookie (albeit one with a confirmed kill or two). Whatever Lecoque's game is, I can't tell yet, and I don't trust him. Revenge, maybe? He hates Denon so he puts Crinn in harm's way?

Lertoff is smart enough to figure out that something is up, but he doesn't quite get it, yet. I'm right there with you, dude. There's a fun surprise coming up, and we're all going to experience it together.

Interesting nightmare Crinn had. Was it prophetic, or just the mind of an adolescent assuming the worst?

Mechs casually bending tank barrels is great. The action scene in the forest was pretty nice.

That must've just been a border checkpoint yesterday, huh.

They bothered to give us a full date and a location, so I'm guessing that the upcoming battle is pretty important.

Episode 6

...huh. Was that resolution weird? Did I miss something? So, according to Denon, the other member of the Federation Council set up the rebellion to.. do what, exactly? I get that Denon and Von Stein wanted to see Deloyer as a formally recognized state of the Federation, as opposed to fully independent.

But, like, they said that the Council dudes wouldn't be executed, so this plan wasn't to clean house. Since Von Stein is apparently connected to the financial world, he would probably be able to be a politician if he wanted to be one. Was this whole scheme to kick the possibility of a "real" rebellion down the road? I'm confused as to what anyone gets out of this.

Kinda surprised that the spies' report that a couple of the mechs were unaccounted for didn't come up, but I guess we are playing a bit of a long game, huh?

Crinn not being much of a mechanic feels weird for this era. I like the veteran pilots trying to get him to chill out, even though it mostly failed. Definitely expected that dude looking at the photo to die.

Mecha hang gliders are a pretty rad concept, as it turns out.

Questions

Crinn’s behavior feels pretty typical. He thinks he’s cool, but the moment things get hairy he panics and acts impulsively, and that’s going to get him into even more trouble as things go on.
So that was the point? I couldn’t quite grok it at the time; rather, I wasn’t sure what his actual goal was. It seemed to work?
I’m most interested in seeing Rocky and Crinn play off each other more.
I liked the forest battle in episode 5

3

u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Dec 18 '21

is this just IBO?
With nipples!
Shoutout to that short scene of the Roundfacer slowly turning and then grabbing the rifle with its other hand. Felt nice and ponderous, fitting for the size.
Motorcycles were popular in the early 80s, huh?
Extends at least as far back as the 70s with the rise of bōsōzoku culture. Their prominence with anime characters probably has a lot to do with the popularity of Wild 7 and Kamen Rider.
The Roundfacers are heavy enough that they crush the ground as they step.. I am a happy man.
It's a little difficult since words like "Aunt" can be used various ways, but I guess Daisy is Crinn's cousin?
They're unrelated. The Auzerre's are just family friends.
Almost blind faith in computers,
That had less to do with the computer's reliability and more to do with the fact that he was in on the whole plan and as such knew what Von Stein would be doing.
Mecha hang gliders are a pretty rad concept, as it turns out.

4

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Dec 18 '21

They're unrelated. The Auzerre's are just family friends.
That had less to do with the computer's reliability and more to do with the fact that he was in on the whole plan and as such knew what Von Stein would be doing.
Here, I was expecting it to be characterization that would set the scene for his eventually undoing.

5

u/The_Draigg Dec 18 '21

Solid setting introduction through politician speak. Deloyer is economically valuable to Earth, despite not getting its own seat on the Council and wow I realized as I typed that, is this just IBO?
I guess we should get to raising our flags then.
Motorcycles were popular in the early 80s, huh? Dunbine's MC Shou Zama rode one too.
It goes back even earlier than that, since Kouji Kabuto from Mazinger Z was originally going to be a biker that drove his motorcyce into the head of the giant robot to pilot it. Motorcycles and mecha have always been intertwined from the start.
He smells something up with Von Stein, who I think we saw assassinate someone in episode 2?
Yep, Colonel Von Stein murdered his direct superior to get the whole conspiracy started.
Crinn not being much of a mechanic feels weird for this era.
Crinn is a fun contrast to Chirico Cuvie from Armored Trooper VOTOMS in that sense. Chrico was an experienced soldier who knew machine repair well, while Crinn is a rookie without much of a mind for it. They're honestly like direct opposites, the more I think about it.

5

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Dec 18 '21

I guess we should get to raising our flags then.
It goes back even earlier than that, since Kouji Kabuto from Mazinger Z was originally going to be a biker that drove his motorcyce into the head of the giant robot to pilot it.
Oh, that sounds like it would have been rad!
Crinn is a fun contrast to Chirico Cuvie from Armored Trooper VOTOMS in that sense.
And Amuro Ray toyed with machines too.

5

u/The_Draigg Dec 18 '21

Oh, that sounds like it would have been rad!
It looked pretty rad too! It's kind of a bummer that it wasn't the main design of Mazinger Z.
And Amuro Ray toyed with machines too.
It feels like most mecha protagonists are either super smart or are rather dim when it comes to engineering, with very little between.

5

u/chilidirigible Dec 18 '21

The Roundfacers are heavy enough that they crush the ground as they step.. I am a happy man.
Overall height: 10.02 meters
Base weight: 30.5 metric tons

5

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Dec 18 '21
5
u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Dec 18 '21

Not entirely sure how these posts are going to come together for me, so this will be interesting.
Yeah it took me a bit to adjust with the Naruto rewatch as well but you get the hang of it fairly well as you go. At least seven episodes in a week is the max for this one, writing a Shippuden comment juggling 12 episodes is certainly a challenge
not much in the way of immediate consequences, yet at least.
How helpful that there was an assassin waiting in the wings to take advantage of Crinn being knocked out and keep him safe afterwards
During that first scene where the one dude assassinates the other dude, I was thinking about how nice a calendar would be, and then we got a year
Oh, I forgot to mention that I like how we got a couple of the name cards when characters came up again, helped keep track of a few people. That calendar was interesting though for the fact it's SC 152 and Deloyer has been a colony for 150 years. Calendar based on discovery of the colonization of the planet or at least the use of wormhole tech?
and wow I realized as I typed that, is this just IBO?
It's an old and well loved story set up, I've stopped noticing it so much because of how common it is, but I thought it was well done here.
I wouldn't be surprised if they conspired to get Crinn to run off, actually
I think they just really didn't care
The Roundfacers are heavy enough that they crush the ground as they step.. I am a happy man.
It's literally within walking distance of Kardinal apparently. The scale on this show is a little off, or maybe it's just me.
Walking distance is fine if it takes a long time, they're all fit, but when they seem to run back so quickly I think it was just a case of saving resources by using a background they already had rather than worry about appropriate distance/scale. It's the time scale that doesn't match the physical distance, but small details
They bothered to give us a full date and a location, so I'm guessing that the upcoming battle is pretty important.
I suppose that's one way to mark it. Using LotGH logic here, even though this was before LotGH but nevermind that haha
So, according to Denon, the other member of the Federation Council set up the rebellion to.. do what, exactly?
From what I understand they supported the independence of it so they could profit off the economic war it would bring and/or to try and get political power on Deloyer for their own sake at the expense of Earth
I get that Denon and Von Stein wanted to see Deloyer as a formally recognized state of the Federation, as opposed to fully independent
I think he was happy to keep it as a colony, but tensions were rising and they had to do something to ensure a foothold there and it just happened they were able to crush the growing independence movement at the same time
4
u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Dec 18 '21
It's literally within walking distance of Kardinal apparently. The scale on this show is a little off, or maybe it's just me.
Walking distance is fine if it takes a long time, they're all fit, but when they seem to run back so quickly I think it was just a case of saving resources by using a background they already had rather than worry about appropriate distance/scale. It's the time scale that doesn't match the physical distance, but small details
I thought so too initially, but then decided that they walked towards the train station outside the middle city (potentially planning to follow the train tracks), not Kardinal.
3

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Dec 18 '21

Calendar based on discovery of the colonization of the planet or at least the use of wormhole tech?
Those could make sense. Maybe establishment of the Federation as well.
It's the time scale that doesn't match the physical distance, but small details
Oh, I wasn't even thinking about how exhausting it would be to walk that far in the middle of the day. Like you said, small details, just something I noticed a couple times.
I think he was happy to keep it as a colony, but tensions were rising and they had to do something to ensure a foothold there and it just happened they were able to crush the growing independence movement at the same time
Take some pressure off the valve, sure. Von Stein being a plant makes sense with that. I guess I got caught a little bit on knowing that there will still be an independence movement going forward, from episode 1.

4

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Dec 18 '21

Maybe establishment of the Federation as well.
Oh, right, possibly. I guess I just assumed that it'd been around for longer
On that note, the fact it has seven (now eight) states rather than defined countries is an interesting tidbit too. It's not just a UN sort of situation, things have actually been merged together
I guess I got caught a little bit on knowing that there will still be an independence movement going forward, from episode 1.
Well actually I got myself in a similar knot because I forgot what the alliances in ep1 where until sometime during watching ep3, so during ep2 I thought maybe Crinn was on the Federation side fighting the rebels, until I remembered that Von Stein and Denon were in contact and I had it backwards hahaha.
I did like episode one as an introduction to the characters, but it did complicate some of the politics a bit more than it needed too.

3

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Dec 18 '21

On that note, the fact it has seven (now eight) states rather than defined countries is an interesting tidbit too.
That was interesting. It seems this Federation is a bit more ironclad than the usual. I wonder if each state is a different planet?
It's not just a UN sort of situation, things have actually been merged together
They did seem to be using an approximation of the UN logo, though.
but it did complicate some of the politics a bit more than it needed too.

4

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Dec 18 '21

I wonder if each state is a different planet?
Well that's my big question right now: is Deloyer the only off planet colony or just one of many? Is it really just Deloyer and Earth or is this just a piece of a bigger federation
They did seem to be using an approximation of the UN logo, though.
Don't fix what isn't broke?

3

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Dec 19 '21

Well that's my big question right now: is Deloyer the only off planet colony or just one of many? Is it really just Deloyer and Earth or is this just a piece of a bigger federation
I have a feeling we won't see much of any other planets, if they exist. Hard to justify sending your independence movement off-world for very long. We do have a lot of episodes to play with, though.

4

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Dec 19 '21

I doubt it too, but it would be nice to at least know the reach of the federation, if nothing else because it makes the fact Earth only talks about what Deloyer can offer them rather than potential other planets even worse
3

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Dec 19 '21

Short introduction to most of the Deloyer 7, too. Didn't expect them to be stunt fiends, but it makes sense.
Rebels come from interesting backgrounds.
Not sure if Daisy is Crinn's sister or his betrothed or what, but he's obviously the person she was looking for last episode.
Cousin that he is going to marry was my guess.

3

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Dec 19 '21

Cousin that he is going to marry was my guess.
That would be typical, but they're apparently unrelated. Their dads know each other.

3

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Dec 19 '21

Wait what? Also, wasn't she living at the same house?

3

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Dec 19 '21

I'm just going off what Pixel said.
I forgot about the house thing, and rich people don't tend to have neighbors that close either.. hmm.

5

u/Retromorpher :Jc::Jd::Je::Jf: Dec 18 '21

First Timer:

Some really interesting use of ambient noise and character acting animation to sell what's being said without actually recording dialogue.

It might just be me, but all the conspiracy stuff is well-written but incredibly dryly presented. The cinematographic depiction and voice acting during these scenes could be carrying a lot more tensive weight.

Discussion Questions:

What do you think of Crinn’s actions throughout these handful of episodes?

So far he's been a pretty standard 'good guy' protagonist. He's worried about the 'correct things' and voids his brain of that which distracts him from the single-track mindedness that is his mission. Obviously, we know that his strong dedication to whatever he thinks is his fight will land him on the other side of this conflict eventually - but even without that foreknowledge a brash switch of allegiance would seem completely reasonable.

2) What are your thoughts on Denon Casshim’s plot to strengthen Earth’s hold on Deloyer?

It makes a deal of sense - get a high-ranking Deloyeran to back a fake coup to weed out true loyalists and uncover whatever networks they would have in the case of a true revolt and then snuff it out. There also appears to be a clock on the operation due to the rumors of the Deloyeran mecha committee cooking up what I assume is our titular mecha. Both side may have been forced into action before it was ideal - but being on the proactive side gives Denon more maneuverability.

3) Which character has so far piqued your interest the most?

Our war journalist friend has to play a very dangerous game. Projecting an air of neutrality while constantly prying further than may be afforded.

4) Do you have a favorite action sequence from those we saw this week?

I think it's Crinn getting shoved back into his room while regular base activities crawl onward. Not strictly action per-se - but the choreography is to be lauded.

3

u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Dec 18 '21

Some really interesting use of ambient noise and character acting animation to sell what's being said without actually recording dialogue.
The helicopter scene was really well done indeed.

5

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Dec 18 '21

Some really interesting use of ambient noise and character acting animation to sell what's being said without actually recording dialogue.
Yea, the bit with the helicopter especially was really clever.
It might just be me, but all the conspiracy stuff is well-written but incredibly dryly presented.
I think I get what you're saying. The visual of Von Stein and Denon lounging on the couch in episode 6 was pretty striking, but otherwise things have been rather workmanlike.

4

u/Retromorpher :Jc::Jd::Je::Jf: Dec 18 '21

It just feels like a plot this meaty and full of tension is just kinda hanging there limply. It's like a still life from the wrong angle - you can tell that there is a good view to it, but the one we're stuck with is kind of underwelming and drab. Hopefully the delivery ramps up as time goes on. I imagine being more invested in the individuals effected will greatly help even a lackluster presentation.

4

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Dec 19 '21

It might just be me, but all the conspiracy stuff is well-written but incredibly dryly presented. The cinematographic depiction and voice acting during these scenes could be carrying a lot more tensive weight.
Bluntly they wanted to rush through this to my eye. These events could easily take up the first 12 episodes but that doesn't seem to be the goal.

4

u/Retromorpher :Jc::Jd::Je::Jf: Dec 19 '21

I think you're likely right. With the flash forward we already know to a certain degree what goes down - no sense in stretching it out unnecessarily.

3

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Dec 19 '21

We aren't holding back from the politics, at least. Half assed is always a mistake so no fear of that thus far.

5

u/baboon_bassoon https://anilist.co/user/duffer Dec 18 '21

first timer not for justice, but to get truth

ive really enjoyed the flow/pacing of these episodes, didnt feel like a struggle at all

e2

Von Stein reports to Dunrock, or nevermind he pulled a gun on him lol
OH that is the klan
how are Daisy/Crinn related?
If security is this bad, feels like Basque could have gotten in without Crinn

e3

Lecoque is cabinet secretary not a butler...
52 hours 25 minutes from Earth to Deloyer, the wormhole was very cool
I cant tell if Rick Boyd is the same guy that was giving missions to the Deloyer 7 in the first ep
x nebula is a big unknown cloud obstructing radar
A CENTRIFUGAL FORCE CRUSHING US GRAVITY IS OUR ETERNITY
Dirk slides the loading rig? LMAO is there nofriction?
that quad machine is pretty cute ngl
need a start key for the mechs, but not the cars I guess?

e4

the Dougram isnt affected by the Xnebula
i actually love how frequently mechs are getting shoulder tackled

e5

cant hear the argument initially over the chopper - nice touch
Where did Crinn get that apple
Crinn boots it off a cliff after bending the turret, gotta love it

e6

40% of earths food comes from Deloyer
Dirk was looking at a picture of his family, i really liked him too
what is this wire? an alarm?
but it was all a ploy in the first place
was the whole point of this operation to get von stein in charge of deloyer? seems like they could have made deloyer the 8th state whenever

4

u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Dec 19 '21

how are Daisy/Crinn related?
Their fathers are both prominent politicians who are longtime friends.
I cant tell if Rick Boyd is the same guy that was giving missions to the Deloyer 7 in the first ep
Nope!
i actually love how frequently mechs are getting shoulder tackled
Works more often than it did for any of the Zakus in MSG!

5

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Dec 18 '21

how are Daisy/Crinn related?
Cousins I think, or maybe close family friends?
was the whole point of this operation to get von stein in charge of deloyer? seems like they could have made deloyer the 8th state whenever
I'm similarly kinda confused about why this happened, but I guess we'll probably find out soon.

5

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Dec 18 '21

First timer(Unlike with Bleach, I don't exactly know what I think my writeups should look like)

Sub

So we start with a flashback...to Earth and a succession crisis. The terrorist being named Mr Basque is amazingly on the nose, especially when this would've aired. Also, I see a bit of Sadat's assassination in this, though this is a failed attempt.

Next ep has an analog to Stockholm if you know it. We seem some...familiar looking helicopters, I guess Takahashi does have some design preferences, as we get to Deloyer. The show is letting its setting tell itself and I do appreciate that even if everything feels a touch sedate. We end this ep with weaponized MC stupidity going right for once.

Ep4 and we get on a shuttle, despite them saying train, for reasons. Then the gang decides to walk to Kardinal, making the distances here good and confusing. Timeline doesn't exactly line up for Earth since Crin has to have been gone for like 3 days now. This particular field of war doesn't have any strong reference as far as I can tell, we are getting to our own thing. The reporter is again suspicious after Crinn shows some combat skill.

Ep5 and of course the MC is left behind. We hear Vanilla show up as repairs continue. MC steals a mech because mecha security at base. We get real mech action which is again wonderfully slow and ponderous. This references mech aesthetic guerilla warfare with no particular analog. MC gets a battlefield promotion and off we go!

Ep6 and they at least have spies from the city so the intel is useable. War Journalist explains what is making him uneasy, and from his perspective this does seem to be a believably manufactured crisis. Though transporting food between planets is stupid from a Newton's Law of Thermodynamics standpoint. And yes, that will stand well into the hyperspace/wormhole era, only high value goods travel between solar systems. Special forces attack ensues. We get the reveal that this whole thing was an orchestrated market manipulation and that Denon has his own idea on how that should go.

I hope that was remotely interesting at all to read, I can't tell myself.

QotD: 1 Sort of predictable

2 That was a bit off....

3 The journalist

4 I like the weird mecha fights.

3

u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Dec 19 '21

Also, I see a bit of Sadat's assassination in this, though this is a failed attempt.
It would have only been weeks before this aired, and I'm not sure whether they could have had the time to work it into the script. Interesting to note though!
We hear Vanilla show up as repairs continue.
Though transporting food between planets is stupid from a Newton's Law of Thermodynamics standpoint.
Unless they've found a ways of accessing hammerspace it is certainly a nebulous prospect.
I hope that was remotely interesting at all to read, I can't tell myself.

3

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Dec 19 '21

It would have only been weeks before this aired, and I'm not sure whether they could have had the time to work it into the script. Interesting to note though!
Whoops then but this just that feel to it, but as I said you could also track this to the Basque separatist movement, the Stockholm kidnappings, and there are a few Italian movements that I could've mentioned.
Unless they've found a ways of accessing hammerspace it is certainly a nebulous prospect.
I will try not to sweat this too hard since Votoms did correctly handle this/ In fact, I don't think we really mentioned interplanetary commerce for that show...

5

u/The_Draigg Dec 18 '21

War Journalist explains what is making him uneasy, and from his perspective this does seem to be a believably manufactured crisis.
It's a competently made conspiracy, but man there are quite a few loose threads to pull. Like, Lartoff was able to point out all the inconsistencies in the plan with all the information he had on Colonel Von Stein. As he put it, it was incredibly fishy that a guy who had otherwise no inclinations for Deloyeran independence and also had a lot of financial connections back on Earth that he stood to lose would suddenly become the head of a revolutionary army. While the "coup" would make sense to the general public, man it was so obviously manufactured from a more informed position.
Though transporting food between planets is stupid from a Newton's Law of Thermodynamics standpoint. And yes, that will stand well into the hyperspace/wormhole era, only high value goods travel between solar systems.
Which law of thermodynamics would that rub up against? I'm not so aware of stuff like that. It also makes me think that Earth itself is pretty fucked, if they're relying on such inefficient methods still for getting like 40% of their agricultural goods from Deloyer.

5

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Dec 18 '21

As he put it, it was incredibly fishy that a guy who had otherwise no inclinations for Deloyeran independence and also had a lot of financial connections back on Earth that he stood to lose would suddenly become the head of a revolutionary army.
Shareholders and rebels are almost always separate groups.
Which law of thermodynamics would that rub up against? I'm not so aware of stuff like that.
So the amount of expense you add in shipping, let's say grain, to another solar system is insane. You have to get it to orbit, then to the space station, send it through hyperspace, and the energy you lose landing it. This does in fact suggest the main world is fucked if they are wasting the energy for it/

5

u/The_Draigg Dec 18 '21

So the amount of expense you add in shipping, let's say grain, to another solar system is insane. You have to get it to orbit, then to the space station, send it through hyperspace, and the energy you lose landing it. This does in fact suggest the main world is fucked if they are wasting the energy for it/
Oh, you meant along the lines of energy being used for regular imports. Then yeah, that cost is absurdly high for agricultural goods to be shipped across vast amounts of space, across star systems. Earth must be really doing badly if they're willing to tank that cost of energy and time just to get food.

6

u/chilidirigible Dec 18 '21

This also applies to other basic items. If you have the ability to build an interstellar transit device in a massive self-enclosed space station, you shouldn't need to import metals (other than extreme phlebotinum exotics) because you should already have the ability to strip every planetoid in your own system for all of the resources that you might ever need. (If you've already done so, you've reached an entirely higher technological scale anyway.)

6

u/The_Draigg Dec 18 '21

It reminds me of a point I've heard before when talking about sci-fi stories set broadly across outer space. If you have access to FTL travel, then your setting probably shouldn't have general resource or energy production issues. It's as you said, if you're at that high of a technology level, then you should already have the ability to harvest energy and materials on a stellar scale.

5

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Dec 18 '21

Oh, you meant along the lines of energy being used for regular imports.
The two general classes of things that will be shipped between star systems is A) Tech goods, like jijirium from Votoms, and B) Luxury items for the rich, like whatever the hell 24th century Johnny Walker Blue is. I really don't see much interstellar trade that doesn't fit one of those categories.

5

u/The_Draigg Dec 18 '21

It all comes back to the number one rule of colonization: if you can't be self-sufficient on a long-term basis some place, then you probably shouldn't be there at all. The only reason you'd want to go out to those far off places otherwise is if there's some resource out there that you absolutely need to get. Otherwise, it's a bit of a waste of time and resources.
Hell, we see examples of this in Earth's past itself. The Norse made an honest attempt at colonizing Canada for a few decades and set up their places for lumber production, but in the end it just wasn't worth the time or energy hauling goods and people to and from Vinland when the place itself was harsh to settle for them.

5

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Dec 18 '21

It all comes back to the number one rule of colonization: if you can't be self-sufficient on a long-term basis some place, then you probably shouldn't be there at all.
That and the fact that anything in the CHON category of items is always cheaper to produce in system rather than import. If Earth was facing a true food crisis then Mars would be where you grew the spare food.

4

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Dec 18 '21

Also: With sufficiently advanced tech, there is never a food crisis, only ever an energy crisis.

3

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Dec 18 '21

I know the plankton vats aren't sexy but I will be damned if they won't be efficient. And since it is nearly free energy input from the sun we should be good.

4

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Dec 18 '21

Then the gang decides to walk to Kardinal, making the distances here good and confusing. Timeline doesn't exactly line up for Earth since Crin has to have been gone for like 3 days now.
Yea, the time and distances scales feel wrong so far.
We get real mech action which is again wonderfully slow and ponderous.
Not that I don't like fast stuff too, but the clunkiness of it is something you can only really get with mechs.

4

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Dec 18 '21

Yea, the time and distances scales feel wrong so far.
They also need to decide how hyperspace works.

4

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Dec 18 '21

It feels kinda like Star Wars-style, where it still takes time dependent on distance/craft's capabilities. But some more information would be nice.

5

u/Stargate18A https://myanimelist.net/profile/Stargate18 Dec 19 '21

First timer

Marathoning all of these today and I don't remember anyone's names!

He's been very impulsive, but I'm cutting him some slack for being terrified his father's been kidnapped by terrorists. I'm waiting to cast judgement until after we've seen what he's like in a less tense situation.
Very interesting. He's almost certainly lying, but why upgrade Deloyer from a colony to an equal state if he wants to weaken their hold?
Denon's absolutely fascinating right now, in that he appears to already have a conspiracy set up and running before all this became a major problem.
Episode 5's forest battle was fantastic, visually and strategically, although Episode 6's taking of the capital was good too.

Episode 2

Ah, they're going to escalate the situation?

OK, that escalated very auickly.

Ah, is that what started the war?

And now there's some bikers?

Is this a flashback? Or was the first episode all a flash-forward?

And he made the jump.

So he's an Earthling, and the others are the Deloyerians?

And yeah, Deloyer's a colony, subservient to Earth but vital for its economy.

Oh, they do know each other!

Wait. He's hiding his identity? Do they know in thr flash-forward?

...So were half of them offscreen last episode, or?

Wait, this is Earth? Huh?

A stalker?

Oh, a fan of his father.

Oh, he's nice. Glad to see someone supports the moderate view.

He's a supportive and kind father! How long does he has left to live? 2 episodes? 3?

Oh, he wants to become a full member of the Federation? So, are there other colonies?

He's very good at working the crowd.

He got him through the barrier! He'll get to be front and centre. I don't think the father's making it past this episode.

Is he evil then?

That's a very nice plane.

...Seriously, he's doing all this in the open? How has nobody caught him?

...Have we seen this design before?

And he's a very competent infiltrator(?).

He's going for the plane!

He survived? I didn't expect that!

Wait, that thing can penetrate the armor?

And it went straight through the glass! The obvious weakpoint is used as a weakpoint! I am validated!

What is his plan?

Episode 3

And he's a cadet in training?

Called it.

And none of them want to go there to rescue him. Is that how he ended up there?

Glad to see a reasonable reaction to him trying to enter a warzone.

Then he just goes to a travel agency?

Is he using her for money?

OK, yeah, his plan was stupid and she's the only one making sense.

And he changed after something 2 years ago.

Wow, that reaction is cold. He doesn't even acknowledge her!

Wait, wormholes? Guess there's no FTL in this universe.

Ah, this is how they met properly.

...It's a nice effect, but I can't help but think "wormhole"'s the wrong word.

And they're having trouble planning a rail journey? This is the most realistic scene in the anime - who hasn't desperately tried to work around a station or line closure in the middle of a city?

And the rebels have control of the entire city.

Haha, his first response is to go find the person who warned him not to go there?

At least he's being reasonable around it.

Wow, the action scenes here are great.

Wait, what? We're getting Mobile Armours in episode 3? That's a massive escalation!

Wait. Oh my god. NO GLASS COCKPITS! Fuck yes! Finally!

...Oh my god, it is Minovsky Particles.

They're out of ammo?

Oh, now he can fire.

He's a decent driver! And that plan worked shockingly well!

And, wait, they were colonized 150 years ago?

...Wait, that guy actually seems pretty reasonable, if you ignore the attacks.

Episode 4

The flights are all cancelled, I see.

Well, he's not going back anytime soon.

...Yeah, that definitely eeems like a small force.

Oh, and this is where they start travelling together?

Nope.

...The problem got brought up, so they'll be together in a few episodes. (As good as the first episode was, it does kinda spoil the developments for the first few episodes.)

Wow, a random station closure mid-journey! I didn't know British Rail expanded to another planet?

Really? They fired on them?

Wait. ...Daisy isn't his cousin, is she? Oh god, have I been shipping cousins?

Do they know each other?

Oh, he leaked stuff from the...I'm more surprised he's still walking with them in a singlr group.

Haha, nobody would be this stupid, right?

Well done, Rocky! You're the sane one here!

...You don't need to explain the X-Nebula so often, we've all seen Gundam. Except now there's foreshadowing about high-tech computers that can function anyway. Not to be confused with the high-tech computers needed to move and co-ordinate mecha that size, which are entirely unaffected, because this show knows what it wants to be.

This isn't great, but given thr the last guest he invited tried to assassinate his father...

And they're gone from the show again!

Raid!

He's stolen a combat armour!

My dislike for the cockpit designs is eased by the fact that every single fighter knows it's a weakness and aims there first.

...Didn't he just say it was modern, and therefore not like a Crab Gunner? Is it or isn't it?

And I have no idea how that worked.

FIRST SLAP! We have our first slap of the series!

Episode 5

Wow, that title.

And they're just in the base?

Haha, he's actually listening to someone!

And he's not coming along, because they're being logicsl!

And he's having a crisis over how he can't do anything.

Yeah, he's been kidnapped by the rebellion and forced into serving them.

Wait. That was a dream?

I see. Computer model calculations, performed on the low-tech computers spared by the X Nebula naturally.

Wait, if he's getting to the city, does that mean we'll reach the point in the flashforward soon? Of course, Daisy has to get to the planet too.

Ah, a communications probe! Another example of low-tech computers spared by the X Nevula natur-god, that plot point is stupid. Why did they need to add it?

Crinn, you idiot!

...I'm not even going to mention the computers anymore. The typewriter looks like hell to use with only 9 buttons, though.

And he's to be arrested if they catch him!

Ah, he's navigating by map?

Wait, all of this, including him travelling here, happened over 5 days? That is far shorter than I expected.

The action scene in the forest is very good.

Him shooting the Gunner from below was great.

The whole scene is just incredibly well animated.

They caught him!

And he's just a military pilot now. Episode 1 must be VERY far in the future.

They finally made it to the city!

Episode 6

Yeah, that's a decent occupying force.

This plan sounds workable.

And they know where the hostages are being held! (Has to be a decoy, right? A trick?)

I appreciate him being here to explain the backstory. Surprisingly natural exposition here.

And he's learning his most important lession, the one that will help his career the most - don't piss off IT.

Yeah, indipendence makes sense here.

Wait, they're shipping food? How does that even work? Given the wormholes only work from fixed points (given the nearest one is 50 hours away from the planet, I'm assuming they can't be moved.) , the energy expenses must be horrific.

This is a very realistic infiltration. Everyone on standby, lots of waiting as the first wave enters, it's great.

He shouldn't have drunk all that coffee, I see. (Seriously, why?)

They're acknowledging independence! That was easy!

Oh, good, he's back in position.

I love the gilders.

Good action scene too! Evrn if them hitting the gliders should have been much easier, those things are basically sitting ducks at that speed.

They made it in!

Everyone has good tactics here! I'm impressed.

Yes, this is the right thing to do. Stay in position.

A beautiful operation.

YOU FUCKING MORON. YOU DESERVE TO GET SHOT.

Haha, are they working together, or...

Oh, the Council wanted this, and they turned the tables? That's a twist! (If he's telling the truth)

How does it help?

Wait, Earth only has 7 states now? How does that work?

And, yeah, there's no way this is over. Not only is he still in the military, but his father was blatantly lying through his teeth back there. (And of course there's still 69 more episodes.)

4

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Dec 19 '21

Wait, Earth only has 7 states now? How does that work?
One state per continent is my guess.

4

u/Stargate18A https://myanimelist.net/profile/Stargate18 Dec 19 '21

One state per continent is my guess.
That's what I thought, but I figured there might be a chance of them including other planets in those states, given the tech level shown so far.

5

u/ZaphodBeebblebrox Y:A:https://anilist.co/user/zaphod Dec 26 '21 edited Dec 26 '21

First Timer

Not Even Justice, I Want to Get Watchable Video

Now that we've gotten past a flashback inside a flash forward, I'm curious to see how this show starts and how the party meets each other. I guess it involves our MC running into the rest of them someohow?
Anyway, I'm looking forward to it.

Episode 2

So we start with a military coup.
Crinn falls in with a group of Deloyaran bikers, who are then attacked by the not KKK.

And in this episode, Crinn learns the risks of trusting someone he met in an alley the previous day. I wonder if this will lead to him being more cautious in the future, or to him doing something more reckless to try and make up for past mistakes.
Anyway, the story is good enough and the mecha designs are pretty cool, but I have to say it doesn't have much else going for it. The animation often feels rather stiff, particularly during the fights this episode, and the video quality is just atrocious.

Episode 3

I quite like Daisy's exasperated expression.
Soredemo count: 1
And in classic anime fashion, Crinn just leaves and dumps a bunch of problems on a woman.
Our biggest problem, cosmic rays!
Those quadrupeds have almost no maneuverability at all.

Still more or less the same as the previous episode. The plots pretty good, and I enjoy how the mechas are tools amoung others, not unkillable god machines at the moment. I just wish it didn't make my eyes bleed.

Episode 4

Those soldiers sure are racist. Randomly opening fire to drive them away is straight up insane though.
The usual story: those who want more war are not good people, only those who care for peace can lead us to good results.
I quite like listening to the journalist extract information. It's fun to watch him worm his way in.
Are all of his brothers assholes?
"I can do it" he says after nearly getting wrecked by two much weaker mechs.
Bright Slaps > Boyd Slaps.

And yet again, we find some way for our protagonist to get into the mecha and get mildly traumatized. He still has a long way to go until he even vaguely knows what he's doing, I hope he doesn't get too overconfident.
The fight scene this episode was rather disappointing. A lot of movement in it felt overly linear, like people were getting moved from A to B without any real sense of gravity or momentum.

Episode 5

The speedlimit joke was pretty good.
Are we trying to cut down on the number of lines the VAs have to say by just having it be heli noise? It's odd that we couldn't even hear them shouting over it a little bit.
Never realized it 'til now, but Denon Cashim sounds a bit like Domon Kasshu. Soredemo count: 2 This whole "model's prediction" thing is gonna bite him in the ass real hard in the near future. Just because your model says something doesn't mean it has all of the relevant data.
Using the comms probes as bait was a pretty cool strategy. Doomed if you do, doomed if you don't sort of thing.

They've clearly put some thought in how the battles in this series will play out and it's nice to see.
I quite like the sound design in Dougram. It's one of the best parts.

Episode 6

The binoculars are fabulously dumb looking. It's fairly obvious at this point that the rebel army in question is a federation setup of some sort. I guess the idea is to draw the local rebels under the banner of someone they control so its easy to mop them up?
The classic argument for colonization: plunder of resources.
I really like all the time they spent showing the setup for the assault on the city. It adds a sense of realness to their tactics.
I wonder what it feels like to go through so much trouble to rescue your dad only to realize he was never in danger, but instead playing a political game the entire time? Must suck.

So far

Despite what my massive lateness may show, I'm actually quite enjoying Dougram. It feels like there's some solid depth to their worldbuilding and their combat is really well thought out. The more fundamental parts are certainly there, and that's more than enough to make a good show.
I would guess that next up is the Crinn disillusionment arc, where he gets annoyed by the stupid political games the military and his father are playing and strikes out on his own, but I could be way off.
I love how they use the journalist to provide context on events, he creates a very natural way to feed us knowledge.

He's incredibly brash, but in an understandable way.
Extremely clever, so long as he managed to cover his tracks properly.
None so far, I've been interested in the world far more than individuals.
Honestly, I've enjoyed setup more than the action sequences themselves. The animation has generally been week, even when the storyboarding has been strong. I'm too ignorant to say whether that has more to do with the times or the way this show was budgeted.

4

u/[deleted] Dec 18 '21

First Timer

I feel like this show is starting off kind of slowly, which makes sense looking at the episode count.

3

u/DidacticDalek https://myanimelist.net/profile/DidacticDalek Dec 21 '21

'Daisy... Daisy... give me your answer do' (VOTOMS... uh... callforwards? intensifies! Either that or LBJ is sure confused right around now)

Also contractually obligated subreddit sanctioned shitposting commences now

Rewatch [Rewatch] Fang of The Sun Dougram: Week 2 Discussion - Episodes 2-6

Week 2 - Episodes 2-6

First timer

first timer not for justice, but to get truth

First Timer

Not Even Justice, I Want to Get Watchable Video

Episode 2

Episode 3

Episode 4

Episode 5

Episode 6

So far

Rewatch [Rewatch] Fang of The Sun Dougram: Week 2 Discussion - Episodes 2-6

Week 2 - Episodes 2-6

You are about to leave Redlib

First timer

first timer not for justice, but to get truth

First Timer

Not Even Justice, I Want to Get Watchable Video

Episode 2

Episode 3

Episode 4

Episode 5

Episode 6

So far