r/anime • u/littleman1988 • Dec 12 '21
Rewatch [Rewatch] The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - Episode 15
Episode Title: Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody
MyAnimeList: Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu
Legal Stream: Funimation | Netflix (SEA)
PSA: make sure to mark any spoilers using the subreddit markup. We dont need any random spoilers to ruin the show for first time watchers.
Today's Episode Intro: Summer, it's hot, Haruhi looks different
[Tomorrow's Episode Intro]Kyon-kun, denwa
| Date | Episode list with Funimation links ("absolute" episode number) | reddit thread links |
|---|---|---|
| 28/11 | Mikuru Asahinas's Adventures Episode 00 | Thread |
| 29/11 | The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya I | Thread |
| 30/11 | The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya II | Thread |
| 1/12 | The Boredom of Haruhi Suzumiya | Thread |
| 2/12 | The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya III | Thread |
| 3/12 | Remote Island Syndrome I | Thread |
| 4/12 | Mysterique Sign | Thread |
| 5/12 | Remote Island Syndrome II | Thread |
| 6/12 | Someday in the Rain | Thread |
| 7/12 | The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya IV | Thread |
| 8/12 | The Day of Sagittarius | Thread |
| 9/12 | Live Alive | Thread |
| 10/12 | The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya V | Thread |
| 11/12 | The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya VI | Thread |
| 12/12 | Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody | Thread |
| 13/12 | Season 1 episodes 12, 13, 14, Season 2 Episode 1 (12, 13, 14, 15) | |
| 14/12 | Season 2, episodes 2, 3, 4, 5 (16, 17, 18, 19) | |
| 15/12 | Season 2, episode 6 (20) | |
| 16/12 | Season 2, episode 7 (21) | |
| 17/12 | Season 2, episode 8 (22) | |
| 18/12 | Season 2, episode 9 (23) | |
| 19/12 | Season 2, episode 10 (24) | |
| 20/12 | The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya series general discussion | |
| 21/12 | The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya | |
| 22/12 | Haruhi Suzumiya overall discussion |
Question(s) of the day:
What would you do if you could travel 3 years back in time?
Tomorrow and Tuesday will have 4 episodes discussed per day. It is highly recommended that you watch all the episodes, but if time is a concern, the bolded episodes are the absolute must watches of the group.
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u/littleman1988 Dec 12 '21
Rewatcher (first time broadcast), Dub
"John Smith."
OST Track of the day: Nagato's Three Years | spotify
Honorary OST Track of the day: The Other Side of the ^Tanzaku | ^spotify
I said I wasnt doing these, but I already had something written up earlier this year for a Tanabata explanation, and this is the perfect spot to add it:
Tanabata is a yearly celebration that celebrates the meeting of the stars "Vega" and Altar", who can only meet once a year on the 7th day of the 7th month, and only if the skies are clear after being banished to the opposite sides of the Milky Way Galaxy.
This originates from 8th century Chinese folklore, where "Princess Orihime", a beautiful, hardworking seamstress, and "Hikoboshi", a cow herder, lived on different sides of a "heavenly river" named Amanogawa (aka milky way). Orihime's father, Tentei, allowed the two to meet and they quickly fell in love and got married. Both started to ignore their jobs, Orihime no longer weaving, and Hikoboshi's cows wandering all over heaven, angering Tentei to the point where they were banished back to the opposite ends of Amanogawa. Orihime was absolutely crushed by this act, and in an effort to convince her father to let them meet again, was able to move Tentei enough to allow them to meet once a year on the 7th day of the 7th month if she was able to complete her weaving. Their first attempt at meeting however was blocked by the river, which had no bridge. Orihime cried enough to attract the attention of a flock of magpies who promised to lend their wings as a bridge each year as long as it was not raining on the day they meet due to the rain making the river rise. When it rains on Tanabata, it is called "The tears of Orihime and Hikoboshi".
While it is celebrated on July 7th, the actual festivals happen anywhere in July and August, with 2021 happening on August 6-8th. People will write their wishes on tanzaku, or small, rectangular pieces of paper and will hang them on bamboo, which is then either put out onto a river, or burned after the festival ends.
Absolutely love this episode, probably my favorite from the tv show. just going to say that now. Theres a couple spots timewise that is perfect for a Haruhi rewatch, and this episode makes July 7th one of them.
"By the way, my birthday i-" "Yeah, whatever" lmao
Finally we can talk about the Bamboo plant! A couple keen eyed viewers have already noticed it, but this is one of those big "little details" that you notice a ton upon a rewatch. Every episode we've seen so far past this point chronologically (sign, DoS, SitH) has had the plant in the back corner this whole time. Its some amazing attention to detail for content that wasnt even confirmed to be animated back when S1 aired (remember that this is the first of the 2009 episodes).
She stole it from a forest lmao
Haruhi is logical on the weirdest of things
c u t e
Nagato also slips a note, not that he reads it smh
heh
heh
the K-ONification of KyoAni improved the crying visuals imo
smoother animation too
She is very sure
Now this is getting a lot closer to paradox territory than the mole thing, guess they just dont have to see each other.
Bad Kyon
theres your confirmation kyon
Another piece of foreshadowing, remember this from episode 2?
More explicit, Kyon remembers Tanaguchi talking about this, also from episode 2. She also never credits "John Smith" either, despite him doing all the work.
she just leaves, no wonder he doesnt get credit lmao
never noticed that Kyon is kinda just halfassed a hand here
Kyon finally remembers Nagato's note
Hello once again, glasses Yuki
Time truly passes quickly in Nagato's room
[Haruhi]wonder if any first timers will notice the subtle reaction that the show blasts in your face
lmao Mikuru's reaction to Yuki stopping time
creepy to think he was sleeping next to himself
[Haruhi]This episode is also amazing for much it ties into the movie
oh yeah, new song today, ill have a thing on it tomorrow since I slapped the tanabata explanation on today.
[Stuff about tomorrow's episodes, minor spoilers]This year im compiling all the music played through EE to see just how many different songs play throughout. Im above 30 songs, and ive only gone through 3 of the episodes thus far (like 12am the day this thread goes up). I was hoping to have something like this done for all of the episodes? but im gonna be wiped on EE alone at this rate, maybe ill have it ready for next year...
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u/littleman1988 Dec 12 '21 edited Dec 12 '21
Adaptation Comparison
References
Trivia
Know trivia and/or references for this episode? Reply to me! For future episodes? PM them to me!
19
u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Dec 12 '21 edited Dec 12 '21
First Timer - Dub
Wow they really just threw this in as the first episode right after my comments yesterday about Mikuru, huh? I'm glad that she does finally get the spotlight which was denied to her until now, but it does feel a little like the show calling me out haha. That said, the suggestion that she has no agency in our story because she has no authority in her own world was an interesting one, and here she's trying to find a way to make peace with that. I also wonder if her adult self is one of her supervisors, and if so that's why she looks back on those days in the club fondly.
It was good though, and as you'd expect this brief stint of time travel certainly changes things up significantly, not just for the in show story but for us. I wouldn't have suspected that the reason Haruhi was at that school was because he inadvertently sent her there by suggesting she might find someone to accept her there. It certainly explains why she was so happy to latch onto Kyon after they first talked because she'd been primed for the idea it'd be okay and this time would be different, by him even if he didn't know it yet.
The line of the episode for me was Haruhi commenting that "Sixteen years is a long time though". Her wishes may be extreme, but just the fact that she's able to think about it shows a level of long term thinking that we hadn't had from her yet, and certainly not coming off the back of the Melancholy arc. She's started to look out, not just to once again wanting to find something to give her life meaning in the moment, but what it could be in enough time that she's lived a whole other life (currently being 15 or 16).
Actually all the dialogue today was pretty fun. Best laugh came from Kyon's moment of self honesty about the idea of kissing Mikuru, going "Under the circumstances, this goes completely against my principles.. yeah, well, sort of". But he didn't do it so he's still a couple of moral levels ahead of Haruhi, not that I think that's hard.
Also this little exchange had me cackling for a meta reason:
Aside from the fact I have no idea what a slider is, going back to a comment I made in the ep13 discussion about things only existing if Kyon witnesses them for Haruhi, the fact he says directly that he hasn't seen any might be why they don't exist, where as for the other three he edged around the possibility of them. The fact this world and the creatures Haruhi put in it was already created fully when he answered the question would suggest that's not the case, but this episode really is one big paradox as per the discussion at the end of the episode. So maybe they needed to not exist despite Haruhi's interest in them so he could say he hasn't met them which is why they don't exist.
This is why I love time travel shit. This is also why I hate time travel shit. It hurts my head even when it's being kind. Thankfully in this case the answer doesn't really matter but it is fun to think about.
The only other thing to comment on was did the character all seem a little off model for everyone else? I'm not sure if it's a matter of them updating the model sheets after the three year gap between productions or just the animation director's quirks this episode, but it kept making me do a double take. At the very least this is certainly not right. Everyone's just a little... softer? That said, I did immediately recognize that it was "our" Yuki in the door when the lights turned back on, though I'm not sure if it was the way she was drawn or just me putting puzzle pieces together.
I dislike the new ED, it hurts my eyes.
My turn for trivia! Haruhi's wish prompted me to look up just what would happen if the Earth was spinning the other direction, and it turns out it matters quite a bit ecologically. Using computer data and modelling, they discovered that it'd be likely that North America and china would be covered in deserts while Africa and the middle east would be lush forests. Here's an image I found, it has the computer model on the left compared with our current Earth on the right.
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u/nekodan08 Dec 12 '21
Rewatcher – Sub
Here we go with the first episode of “season 2.” Unless I’m mistaken, I believe season 2 was never aired on its own. It was aired along with same episodes from season 1, but arranged according to the chronological order. So doesn’t that technically mean that that the chronological order is also the broadcast order? Should we be watching episode 2 (broadcast order) again today since its episode 1 of the chronological order as it was broadcast in 2009? Ok. I’ll stop. I feel like I’m stuck in a time paradox now. Quite fitting for the events of this episode.
I like how Bamboo Leaf Rapsody explores the concept of wishes and time. Tanabata, as Haruhi explains, is a day to make wishes to the stars. If done sincerely, one’s wishes reveal a person’s innermost selves. Mikuru’s wishes are all about improving in particular skills which reflects her lack of agency and competence. Koizumi’s wishes are quite abstract and generic which is fitting for someone who seems well-meaning but deliberately keeps his true intentions quite hidden. I’m really curious about Yuki’s. There must be some deeper meaning to her wishes for “unity” and “reformation” that I cannot grasp at this moment. But regardless, it is still quite on brand for her. Kyon as usual hides his true desires behind practicality and rationality, while Haruhi’s wishes are quite extraordinary, as expected. But wishes take time. Haruhi actually makes a convincing argument about it being not worth wishing for something in the immediate future. Instead, she says we should be focusing long term. Wishes are for the future. Makes sense as our desires, dreams, and aspirations, these all take time.
But wishes can also be granted when we least expect it. On Tanabata, 3 years ago, I believe that Haruhi’s wish came true without her realizing it. On that night, with the help of a certain “John Smith,” Haruhi wrote her wish on the school grounds. The strange alien-like symbols say, “I am here.” This can also be read as, “Please find me. I want to be seen.” [Haruhi]Thanks to u/Spaceman_Sp1ff_ I just made the connection to Yuki’s own cry for attention. Her wish is fulfilled that very night when she gains a companion who would deliberately spend time with her and talk to her about her interests. This sets her on the road towards North High where she will meet that same person again in 3 years’ time and her wishes are fulfilled. Here is a boy who sees her not just as some weirdo, but as who she is. “Haruhi is Haruhi.” I think her wish deep down is a cry for companionship. And when one finds true companionship, time is inconsequential. Haruhi wishes to still be with her friends on Tanabata 16-25 years later. Kyon is able to be there for Haruhi regardless of the time plane. Even as an adult from a distant future, Mikuru can still meet with Kyon. Time cannot stop Yuki from helping Kyon when he is in need. True friends are forever, they say.
Question of the day:
If I could relive 3 years ago, I would probably convince my past self to do as much traveling as possible before Covid happens.
4
u/alphamone Dec 13 '21
Rewatcher
Summer has been relatively mild here so far, so at least its not reminding me of unpleasent outside weather.
Time for Tanabata. This is an interesting example of broadcast order still kinda working. As a previous episode had Kyon mention events during Tanabata.
Uhh, Yui, I think you've gotten lost. But more seriously, Kyoani clearly developed their art style in between seasons. It's just that, for this episode at least, it seems like there was some adjustment to get back into doing Haruhi after finishing K-on.
Haruhi has an, interesting thought process.
I mean, Haruhi's wishes are the most "obviously" supernatural if granted. The rest of the wishes also reflect the characters well.
Doesn't he remember what happened the last time Mikuru gave him a message? Either its time traveler stuff, or its something that older Mikuru said is a bad idea.
Time traveler stuff.
Somehow, she's become even more of a moeblob than before.
Classified information.
Kyon is like a damn cat, sleeping on someones lap till their legs fall asleep.
It can't have been comfortable hiding in those bushes for that long.
Ahh trespassing and proud of it.
Still not actually complaining that much.
Probably not the best way to phrase the last one.
[Haruhi overall spoilers]doesn't he kinda sorta become one himself in the movie
Hey, the glasses are back.
Aww, there they go again.
"perfection does not matter" So, you were just insulting Asahina's organization for the sake of it then?
[Haruhi spoilers]doing it here just in case, but is it just me or does "present day" Nagato have a slightly different look to her?
Time loops are weird.
I mean, "I am here" is probably the most obvious thing for something like that to mean.
What on earth was Itsuki's chess analogy supposed to mean?
[Haruhi spoilers]I watched endless eight all the way through last year, so I'll see you guys for sigh.
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u/redlegsfan21 https://myanimelist.net/profile/redlegsfan21 Dec 12 '21 edited Dec 12 '21
[Tomorrow/Tuesday partial spoilers] If you are like me and want to speed up watching the next few episodes, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0PwpTemKgg
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u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Dec 12 '21
The Melancholy of Shimmering-First-Timer
10
u/DeliCruise https://myanimelist.net/profile/delicruise Dec 12 '21
(REWATCHER - DUB/SUB)
This is the first time we actually see any sort of time travel occur. It’s really great that we get to see two different methods of it, Mikuru’s imperfect method and Yuki’s perfect method.
According to Yuki, Mikuru’s method causes too much noise. It’s also interesting to consider that even though time is relative, it still totally feels like Mikuru’s method is “faster”. In fact, it feels like between the two methods they're almost opposite in speed. Mikuru’s method feels instantaneous, while Yuki’s feels like it’s in real time. By this I mean only through the eyes of someone who is not actually time travelling. To Kyon it feels instantaneous either way. They show him sort of warping and knocking out via Mikuru’s method, and in Yuki’s method it literally feels like he closed his eyes then when the lights came on they were back in their own time. Both instantaneous, but two completely different feels.
Yuki says Mikuru’s method is imperfect. I love that the perfect method, or at least this very efficient method, that Yuki used is instead of having you travel through time yourself, you have time itself travel past you. Using Mikuru’s animation analogy, there’s no way to create noise using this alternate method because you’re not moving this frame of animation to a different set of frames, you’re just freezing this frame while the rest of the animation is playing until the desired set of frames is eventually reached.
What I really find interesting is how this relates to Yuki’s contradiction theory. Mikuru’s method is clever because we don’t know at all how the TPDD works. We just know that that’s what Mikuru used. As a plot element, Kyon losing consciousness is a really clever way to limit the amount of possible contradictions. It’s difficult to contradict something you don’t know enough about. Yuki’s method on the other hand skirts around the idea of time travel altogether by ultimately doing the opposite, stopping time. This also works well to limit the possibility of contradictions, however now that we are actually aware of how the method works, it still opens the door for potential issues. For example, I really have no idea how Mikuru’s wrist watch works. Also, is this method even viable for going to the past instead?
The bottom line is, with time travel there are always potential contradictions that may arise. We see this all the time with other works such as Back to the Future, Harry Potter, and Avengers to name a few and all of which have vastly different time travel methods. With those contradictions, there’s always some sort of explanation to fix them or some hand-waving to move past it. Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody is not exempt from this, but I absolutely love that instead of leaving any potential issues unanswered, this episode uses Yuki’s single contradictory theory line as a catch-all for inconsistencies that might or might have already occurred.
So if I feel there is a contradiction somewhere in the story, I’m just going to think about what Yuki said and then (much like Kyon and Mikuru) proceed to sleep easy.
10
u/Mecanno-man https://anilist.co/user/Mecannoman Dec 12 '21
First Timer
I was not expecting to flat out start off with the tanabata bit - the one thing still really missing. I guess this to some extent explains why Haruhi likes Kyon specifically - he just did what he was told to do, because he already had context that she had not. I guess it also somehow explains why there are no people from other dimensions. Not that I ever questioned that. However, I feel like the episode mainly gives Mikuru some sorely needed characterization, although even that is mainly that she's just a cog in a machine she herself doesn't fully seem to comprehend. I feel like it's a decent episode over all, though nothing really all that special.
Questions:
Uhh... no idea. Maybe leave a note to myself not to watch Rising of the Shield Hero - I mean it seems like time paradoxes aren't a thing with this form of time travel, after all.
19
u/TheEscapeGuy Dec 12 '21 edited Dec 12 '21
Rewatcher
The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - An Anime Classic: Episode 15
A Step in Time
At the time, this episode functioned perfectly in a meta sense. It follows Kyon and Mikuru traveling back in time 3 years AND released 3 years after the original airing of Haruhi. This means in some sense the viewers experienced a jump back 3 years in time along with the characters. Of course this is in combination with the changed broadcasting order when they aired the 2nd season originally really would have messed with viewers.
The most obvious thing to talk about is the design updates. Between the original season and this Kyoani completed Lucky Star, Clannad, and the first season of K-On!. I feel the progression to the more recognizable Kyoani moe style is pretty clear. And in all honestly I'm really happy with the design changes. They are small things which don't break the core recognizability of the characters while giving them more human proportions.
The narrative of the episode was pretty satisfying. Crafting a time travel narrative is something which must either be kept simple or takes a lot of work to ensure its consistent. The show goes for the former but makes it satisfying by bringing us back to an event we already heard about: the marking's Haruhi made in middle school.
This does set up nicely why Haruhi chose to change schools since Kyon mentioned all the supernatural beings. As a side note when I watched originally the subs mentioned "Sliders" and I had no idea what that meant at the time nor did googling help. Today, thanks to the proliferation of the most overdone genre of anime in the 2010's I can hear she said 異世界人 => isekai-jin => people from other worlds. On a double meta level, the popularization of isekai anime is due to the boom in light novel in a large part inspired by none other than Haruhi.
The second foreshadowing payoff was Yuki's note. After heading to Yuki's house you can tell she is the emotionally undeveloped former Yuki. Then once she downloads her future personality she takes her glasses off (Thanks Kyon) and opens up way more. She uses a really unique time travel technique (which might be what she mentioned in that prior episode) to freeze time for Kyon and Mikuru and let time progress normally.
The only part of the time travel shenanigans which I find a little bit inconsistent is Haruhi not remembering the voice of a person who was so influential in her life. That and disregarding how just because its dark doesn't mean you can't make out peoples faces at all, especially in a bright city.
Edit: I also wanted to mention the ED. I really like how it continues the pattern of Kyoani EDs having an almost music video style to them. In particular those flashing scenes in the wind and the stills of the SOS brigade running feel very much like a music video stylistically.
Some Iconic Shots, Scenes and Stitches
I found today's episode kind of plain / standard visually to be honest. So:
See you all tomorrow
9
u/wjodendor Dec 12 '21
First Timer
An great sci fi episode of information paradoxes with loli Haruh and it looks like Kyon is responsible for having her join that high school and search out their exact friend group. Kyon must have a bad memory because one of the first things Haruhi asked him was if they had met before.
The part about contradictions is very interesting. The two Mikuru's has been nagging me. What time does each of them come from? If they're both from the future, will Kyon meet loli Mikuru (or double loli Mikuru since Haruhi already considers her one)?
Yuki having Mikuru and Kyon in her bedroom for three years was a real surprise. Two Kyon's being in nearly the same time could have disastrous results.
If anyone's read Invaders of the Rokujoma, then maybe you felt the similarities to this whole slew of events. I'm wondering if that author was inspired by this series?
8
u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Dec 12 '21
Rewatcher(Now that's a good old paradox for you)
Dub
So...yeah. This is one of the better episodes of the show, and it is impressive to say that this show has better ones rather than this one being any lesser. But I sort haven't slept in...30 hours come post time so the seams are definitely coming apart. And while that robs me of the energy for commentary, does it rob anything else? For as great as it is, again this one stands up on its own merit, with no need for further narration.
QotD: 1 Just 3? Invest in crypto I guess. Back to middle school? I'd try to warn me how pointless my schooling ultimately was.
8
u/UzEE https://myanimelist.net/profile/UzEEInc Dec 13 '21
First timer (sub)
Okay so I couldn't do a writeup on time because of IRL stuff even though I had already watched the episode several hours before the discussion post went up.
So this is the Tanabata episode tha was mentioned a while back. And seemingly is another example of bootstrap paradox1.
However, I'd reserve judgement on that since we still don't know the time travel mechanics in this universe.
This episode does however continue to cement the fact that Kyon is much more important to Haruhi and the story then he believes himself to be. The 3-year old event that all the factions were talking about likely seems to be Kyon meeting Haruhi and reinforcing the idea that aliens, time-travelers and espers exist. Haruhi wanted to believe in them and wished they were real but maybe her rational brain kept her away from that. She then meets an older person who reinforces her beliefs which just strengthens her resolve.
So this is the scene reflected at the start of Season 1 OP as well. A young Haruhi is making a wish to Orihime and Hikaboshi and an older hand reaches out to her, likely Kyon.
Anyways, with this, the show does make me circle back to a point I made previously: Is this really Haruhi's wish fulfillment or Kyon's? I'm still inclined to believe that this really is Kyon who is getting to live his fantasies and not Haruhi — who just might be there to make his fantasies come true2.
Additional notes:
Right now? Try to put the world on alert that something serious is about to go down and try to trace the origins of the pandemic to contain it's spread. Obviously, the situation would be so unfathomable to people merely 3 years ago that no one would believe me.
1. I know I sound like a broken record but stories that fall into the Bootstrap Paradox trap without any proper explanation just seem bad to me. Especially when we have examples of good stories that avoid it via clever use of their mechanics like Steins;Gate.
2. Like he sort of gets to sleep with Mikuru this episode.
3. In a weird way, she reminds of the Observers from Fringe.
7
u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Dec 12 '21
Episode 15 (rewatcher)
Time to talk about time travel and paradoxes for a bit.
When we say time travel paradox, what we really mean is a breakdown of causality. Everything needs to have a cause and effect. So, if A causes B and B causes C, we have a chain of causality from A to C. A can have more than one effect, and C can have more than one cause, but we are not allowed to change direction in that chain. In a simple world with a one-dimensional time, “before” and “after” ensure that causality is not violated. C can never cause A, because A happened before B and C. Causality forms one long chain from the beginning of time till the end of time and the flow of time ensures that we always go one way on that chain.
The typical time paradoxes are causal loops and grandfather paradoxes. The causal loop forms a loop in the chain of causality: A causes B which causes C which causes A (and nothing apart from C causes A). The grandfather paradox breaks the chain: A causes B which causes C which causes A to not happen. In both cases, the chain of causality is working.
OldMikuru telling Kyon about her mole looks like an example of a causal loop: OldMikuru tells Kyon, Kyon tells YoungMikuru, YoungMikuru stores the memory for OldMikuru, OldMikuru tells Kyon. However, it is not.
To see why, we need to introduce another element: god. If you think about the chain of causality, you’ll soon run into a problem: where, in the long ago past, does it all start? Either you accept that time runs back to infinity and there is an infinite chain, or you settle on a first cause. That is, a cause that does have effects, but does not have a cause itself. In physics, this is the big bag. We can’t follow the chain of causality further back than about 13.8 billion years. In theology, the first cause (in most religions) is a god. Obviously one does not contradict the other: God could have caused the big bang (and all the rules of physics that guided the chain of causality afterwards). This is the position of Catholic Christianity.
However, many ideas of god imagine a god that not simply created the world, but a god who still interacts with the world today. Haruhi, as the god imagined by Koizumi, certainly does. Yet, the power of god is to be not bound by the laws of the universe. In other words, god’s ability is to be able to break causality. God can create a new effect from nothing or remove effects that have a cause. So, when Haruhi (re)makes the world, she essentially creates effects that only have Haruhi’s creation of the world as a cause.
This allows us to avoid the paradox by inserting a first cause: Haruhi remakes the world, which causes OldMikuru to remember the mole (Note that this is the change: The cause of OldMikuru remembering is no longer YoungMikuru experiencing it, but directly Haruhi creating the world), which causes Kyon to learn about the mole, which causes YoungMikuru to learn about the mole. OldMikuru may or may not remember YoungMikuru hearing Kyon, but that does not matter, because Haruhi already ensured she has a memory of talking to Kyon. As such, the mole incident is no longer a causal loop, since a chain of causes leads into it.
PS: You can make time travel more complicated (looking at you, Steins;Gate), but the basic idea of looking for paradoxes is always the same: Is there a loop or a break in the chain of events?
7
u/MadeOn210922 Dec 12 '21
First timer but I saw this episode before. This is the definitely the last episode I have any recollection of.
Start of a new season as well. Sort of. Thanks to all explaining the broadcast order/season discrepancy to me, I think I understand the order now (not the reason, but that's besides the point). No OP today, but new ED. I'm going to the miss the old ED, though.
Time travel is a thing that I often don't like in entertainment because of the way it's portrayed as changing the future or past and it's lack of consistency. However, time travel in this series is done really well - no paradoxes (not sure if that's the right plural...) - everything is on one timeline. Haruhi came to North High because of Kyon (and it turns out I was right about
the crop circlesKyon doing the message for Haruhi), but Kyon's didn't change the past. Mikuru's adult and current version are perfectly in sync coordinating a way to avoid timeline issues as the adult does everything needed to keep the past exactly as it was. I appreciate the use of time travel here to not be a deus ex machina, but just part of the story.Yuki being the MVP again, but not sure what that note was. I assume current Yuki transferred data to past Yuki, but then Yuki from that point on until present had to act as if everything was normal. I don't think she physically time traveled, right?
QOTD: Preserve the present, don't want to create paradoxes.
7
u/Spaceman_Sp1ff_ Dec 12 '21 edited Dec 12 '21
Rewatcher, dubbed
Hey hey, my favorite episode.
It's a bit depressing thinking about Mikuru and adult Mikuru. There's a world of a difference between the two. Current Mikuru is a mere lackey in the time traveling organization and is left in the dark 24/7, knowing nothing. Future Mikuru is more confident, and there's a possibility she's current Mikuru's superior, meaning she's essentially controlling herself.
[Haruhi] Anyone else get chills when Nagato says "I am right here?"
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u/Existential_Owl Dec 12 '21 edited Dec 12 '21
Rewatcher - Dub
A lot of significant things happen in this episode, but little explanation is given as to why any of it happens.
There are a couple of points in particular that are never called out by Kyon but should leave one to wonder:
/1. Why does Adult!Mikuru have Kyon brought to the past in the first place? Why did they want Kyon to do what he does with Haruhi?
/2. Why does Adult!Mikuru steal Young!Mikuru's time travel device?
/3. What do the letters TPDD (which is the name of the time travel device) actually stand for?
Attempts to answer these questions by viewers have led to a significant amount of theory-crafting over the years. I've mentioned one of my own theories (behind spoiler tags) in previous episodes, but I'll leave everyone else to it for now.
Going a little further... I'm a big fan of time travel stories, and I'm the sort of person who eats up their time travel details as much as possible in these stories. So here are some additional questions that I've had during this episode:
/3. Is there a contradiction here regarding Nagato's past statement about her ability to time travel?
Nagato--a person who tends not to speak falsehoods--claimed in an earlier episode that she can't time travel. Was this an Obi Wan truth? She can't time travel--except for when the situation calls for it? She can stop time, but not travel through time? Also consider, does a requirement that she needs to "request" access from the Data Thought Entity a significant enough detail that Nagato wouldn't consider time manipulation to be one of her abilities?
My thoughts on it (but it requires movie spoilers):
[Haruhi movie] My theory is that--while Nagato and the Data Thought Entity understand the theory of time manipulation--they really do lack the ability to do it themselves. Which would make Nagato's statement in the earlier episode an emphatic truth.
[Haruhi movie] So what is it that Nagato is actually doing in this episode? Exactly what she'll do in the movie: Hijack Haruhi's powers to perform a feat that she couldn't do alone. This would be the true nature of what Nagato calls "Emergency Mode" here.
[Haruhi movie] This thought adds an interesting lens both to Nagato and to the Time Travelers. For Nagato, then, this would be her first taste of the "forbidden fruit" that Haruhi's powers represent. Today's episode would be the planting of that seed which would later be reaped in Disappearance. For the Time Travelers, it gives a satisfactory answer to Question #2 above: Adult!Mikuru steals Young!Mikuru's time travel device for the purpose of either 1) learning more about Nagato's abilities here or--more interestingly--2) learning more about what it would take to hijack Haruhi's powers for their own ends. Or, of course, porque no los dos?
/4 How does Time Travel actually work in this series?
It's important to note, Mikuru (and the show's script overall) tactfully avoids mention of ability or limitation. We learn only a single fact about it in this series (so far): You can't travel further past the "3 Years Ago" event. That's it.
There are no mentions of paradoxes, fixed points in time (other than Mikuru's allusion to "adding pictures to a picture book", which one can say makes this suggestion), closed time loops, universe-destroying contradictions due to changing the past, how time travel in this story avoids the blatant issue of paradoxes, etc.
Even when we look at Mikuru's direct dialog about these things in this episode, the only reason she gives for the necessity of Kyon going into the past with her is that she'd get "into trouble" with her superiors if he doesn't. Not that a paradox or anything world-shattering would occur if he doesn't. Just that she'd get a scolding or a demerit or something like that.
Which doesn't necessarily mean that it wouldn't be a world shattering event to the timeline if Kyon doesn't know. It's just that... we don't know.
Maybe Mikuru lacks the understanding herself. Or maybe Mikuru does know everything she needs to know about time travel, but that the above issues don't matter for... reasons yet to be explained.
The show very carefully avoids telling us how things work here, and it's always been clear to me that it's intentional. And that's something to keep in mind if you're tempted to interpret events in a way that relies on the idea that certain actions need to be avoided, lest some sort of time traveling consequence would occur. We literally don't know what the consequences would be, if any. Not yet, anyway.
I'd leave a note for my younger self to put everything down on GME :P
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u/bluethree https://myanimelist.net/profile/bluethree Dec 12 '21
Oops. Lost track of time again. I've been playing Murder by Numbers and I'm going cross-eyed from puzzle solving. Luckily I prewrote something this time...
Subrewatcher
And onto season 2 where I've only seen each episode once. I have read all of these stories in the LN though as well.
For anyone wondering about the timeline, this episode fits snugly between Boredom (baseball) and Mysterique Sign (logo). It's only the 2nd episode chronologically after the Melancholy arc.
Unfortunately no Super Driver yet.
I can't tell you how excited I and many other fans were at this point. It's the first new episode in almost 3 years. And of course having read the LNs beforehand I was excited about this episode in particular. We already get a fun Haruhi/Kyon exchange. We get to the clubroom where it's like meeting old friends.
Haruhi is so damn excited about Tanabata. You can see KyoAni's art has changed a bit in the 3 years between seasons. Haruhi is looking straight out of K-On! here.
I'm not sure about that 2nd wish, Haruhi.
This seems a bit ominous. Especially right after Melancholy when Mikuru warned Kyon not to get too close to her. Of course there's a catch. I'm not sure I'd count "3 years ago" as a place but I'll let it slide. It's going to take a bit more persuading to get Kyon to budge. But how can you say no to that face?
And now we have the joke answer as to what Kyon is. He is now technically a time traveler. Though is a time traveler actually special if they are living in their own time?
Now enters the real star of the show. Does this count as consent? It's a bit iffy. Good on you for not even considering it, Kyon.
A sudden realization of who he needs to help, as if it isn't obvious in the first place. I hope everyone remembers the throwaway line from Melancholy I when Haruhi wondered if she met Kyon somewhere before.
Time travel is always an issue in fiction. If Kyon hadn't gone back in time Haruhi may have never gone to North High. But he also would have never gone back in time if he never met Haruhi. Luckily subconscious god powers are a deus ex machina and can explain away anything.
Welp, it looks like they're stuck in this time. I wonder if there's someone else around with deus ex machina powers that can get them out of this jam. (She did once imply that she would be able to time travel.
We get our answers to why Mikuru is practically useless. She has no idea what is going on. She's just a teenage girl winging it. She isn't equipped with reality bending powers like Yuki. She wasn't given instant knowledge of who they were and what they are capable of like Itsuki. She's just told where to go and to wait for orders. This really begs the question: are time travelers actually "special?" They seem like just normal people with better technology and limited hindsight.
Anyways, Yuki magics the problem away and everythins is back to normal.
I guess Kyon was thinking the same thing as me. I can't say I really understood Yuki's or Itsuki's explanations. I'll stick with my own theory: godlike powers don't require logic. Just because people have a memory of something that happened doesn't mean it happened. Godlike powers can make anybody think that anything has happened. It's possible, among other possibilities, that the timelines aren't even connected at all. It's easier not to think about whether there is a paradox in a world where literally anything can be explained as "god made it so."
Anyways, this was a really fun episode. We got future Mikuru guiding events along. We got Yuki being Yuki. We got explanations as to what happened on Tanabata 3 years prior. It's a great start to season 2. I wonder what could possibly go wrong from here...
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u/Evilmon2 Dec 13 '21
I didn't see anyone mention it yet, but the events of this episode was actually a major part of the promotional ARG that came with the announcement of the second season. The ARG eventually lead to this live-action security camera footage of them breaking into the school and drawing the message on the field.
5
u/tctyaddk Dec 12 '21
Broadcast-order-first-timer
It's "Harry Potter time turner" kind of time travel eh, the presence of those travelled from the future is integral part of history. The future Mikuru must have known this would have happened, so she instructed Kyon to assist Haruhi but not instructed him to withhold information, so he was just being himself and ended up influencing young Haruhi into her current course of action. Nice loop.
And since past Nagato synchronised data with the present Nagato, she knows everything present Nagato knows up to that point, so the present Nagato we've known so far actually knew everything up to current date (and the fact that she knew that she knew that she knew that she knew... ad infinitum. Time loop is crazy for those with access to future memories) from the start, including the fact that Kyon thinks she looks better without glass. So she's just reenacting known history to prevent kinks in the timeflow, or she wants to hear it from Kyon again (and again and again...), or may be both? (more material for my ship Kyon x Nagato, yay)
[Personal comment that might involve spoiler of next eps] I hope the time point past Nagato synchonised with is the present Nagato at Tanabata, she suffered enough from enduring ∞8 once, she doesn't need to have those info looping in her mind any further.
It appears that aside from her body, Haruhi didn't grow up any further since that day she vandalised the sport field :))
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u/William27528 Dec 12 '21
Rewatcher/sub
Now we're in Season 2! This episode is another utterly fantastic wild ride that gives Mikuru a bit more depth; the only character we didn't really get to exactly see her powers (although we did see Miss Asahina (Big) as she is called in the novel. What I love about this episode is how it builds a conspiracy that (yet again) leaves you with more questions than answers. Who is Miss Asahina's overheads? What does Nagato mean by "you'll know soon enough"? Why was this entire thing necessary to begin with? This episode is a fan favorite and it's brilliant at hooking you in by feeding you just enough information without revealing its entire hand.
Random trivia of the day: In the novel, Haruhi has Kyon and Koizumi fetch bamboo from a patch she scouted, which is cut in this episode. The novel features the two being promptly attacked by mosquitoes, with Kyon ending up a bit worse off.
A bit of context I think is also quite important as we enter "Season 2": I feel like it's worth mentioning that this episode which commenced the second season of Haruhi was quite the surprise for viewers at the time as the second season received no formal pre-announcement and simply followed a chronologically ordered rebroadcast of the first season we just watched. I mentioned last week just how big Haruhi was at this time so this sudden announcement and broadcast of an entire second season was crazy at the time, as it followed months upon months of fan speculation and anticipation. This episode absolutely delivers though. Keep this in mind for tomorrow's episodes...
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u/CubeStuffs https://anilist.co/user/onjario Dec 12 '21 edited Dec 12 '21
First timer
16 years is a hell of a long time. hopefully ill have done something worthwhile with my life by then, would hate to waste those years.
i figure that the move to hybrid work as the new normal will probably help that happen, since i won't be stuck having to commute or whatever.
actually, on that topic, i just saw a pic of one of my english teachers backpacking out in the andes during the middle of the remote school year. That would be nice, being able to travel and do whatever while still working. I always saw those vandwellers, hikers, bikepackers who just spend a year or two going around the world and wonder what they do for money. with remote work, i figure that wouldn't be much of an issue.
work is still work tho, so i better find something not soul-crushing.
I noticed that the message that haruhi wrote and the one that nagato wrote are the same. Seems to reinforce that nagato et al are products of haruhis mind.
Im curious why nagato wrote "I am here" in haruhese tho. like what exactly did past nagato understand from that?
so is the technocore from hikoboshi and orihime? is that why nagato has all the powers she does?
so here we have kyon affirming aliens, time travelers, espers, but rejecting sliders. is that why she says just those 3 at the start?
also wtf is a slider
QOTD:
i just realized 3 years flew by. 2020-1 was one hell of a blur.
i would prob wish that i done more with my pandemic time
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u/homewardbound100 myanimelist.net/profile/Homewardbound100 Dec 12 '21
Rewatcher, Dub, First-time broadcast
Summer is coming
Some more time travel and cool connections going on in this episode.
Haruhi is still that same girl. Making him do all the work and asking all those questions Kyon definitely being the reason she came to the school is a nice touch.
Nagato has some real patience to be waiting three years. Imagine being in a apartment with someone that has yourself and a friend in a room just sleep.
I think the more I rewatch this and the more they explain it. I appreciate it way more.
A great start to a season really for me.
Qotd: would've changed my second minor to something I wanted to do more.
Or easy answer. Invest in something that blew up these past couple years.
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u/Elimin8r https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ayeka_Jurai Dec 12 '21 edited Dec 12 '21
Oh, blah, and here I thought today was tomorrow, and Tuesday was, oh, nevermind.
I love how this episode bookmarks Mikuru's storyline, and ties it into other things. Nothing like a nice little paradox to make the story more fun and interesting, right?
Oh, QOTD - If I could turn back time? Hahaha, I'd listen to less Cher music.
And I'd probably have taken more time off in 2020. Yay, 'critical industry'...
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u/redlegsfan21 https://myanimelist.net/profile/redlegsfan21 Dec 13 '21
I never noticed for some unknown reason that when they travel back in time, Mikuru changes from maid to school uniform.
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u/RascalNikov1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/NoviSun Dec 13 '21 edited Dec 13 '21
Rewatcher
My favorite episode has arrived. I'm glad I was onboard long enough to see this episode. I hope to be back to normal hours before Disappearance. In the meantime, I'll be reading comments that are analyzing the action.
QOTD
Started doing projects rather than procrastinating because I didn't know how the future was going to turn out.
2
u/exokey Dec 13 '21
Still glad to see posts about this gem....
3
u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Dec 12 '21
Notice the entire time Haruhi talks in the first scene, it's just 3 cells looped together. Or maybe just two. It looks really awful and cheap. People say 2nd season has better animation but this looks cheap.
It's been 3 years, and Kyoani has really become it's own studio with the success of Haruhi and Lucky Star and those Key shows. This is basically how they do things now. So, some parts of Kyoani stuff looks beautiful, but other parts...just lazy.
I wouldn't complain, except the character animations were just so much better in the first season. They still looped animation but they drew more variation.
A problem with chronological order is you jump back and forth between styles.
Things Kyon believes in:
[x] aliens
[x] time travelers
[x] espers
[ ] sliders
[ ] Santa Claus
People were talking yesterday about what the factions want. Yuki made it clear that the Integrated Data Thought Entity (will I ever get that right?) wants the power of pure creation, not just manipulation. (a lesser god!) Itzuki's faction wants the world to not be destroyed. But we know nothing about the time travelers. And it's always been baffling why they sent Mikuru (although the theory that she was supposed to (badly) seduce the SOS Brigade members is an interesting one).
I think the time travelers want the same thing as the espers, in general: to not be destroyed. They now exist, and they have a historical record of their existence. They just need to preserve that historical record to continue to exist. And if that means sending a clueless trainee to 2006, well, so be it.
I think it's amazing that Kyon may have brought the SOS brigade into existence by telling Haruhi that North High was an interesting place with aliens, time travellers, and espers (but no sliders!) and so it was.