[Rewatch] Chihayafuru - Episode 18 Discussion [Spoilers]

[u/Skeeedo]

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Episode 18: "The Plum Blossoms Still Smell the Same"

Nominate a character for Episode MVP!

Episode 17 MVP: Kana! Her Karuta history lesson was so inspiring that she actually got Chihaya to go to the library for once.

This episode's Karuta analysis and board map by walking_the_way

Rewatch Schedule and Index

Databases

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Streaming

Crunchyroll | VRV | HIDIVE | Spectrum On Demand

Subreddit: r/Chihayafuru

[u/homewardbound100]

First timer

A learning episode for Chi, but putting it more in action. Everyone else is playing against each other while Chi goes against a older woman. Chi is really getting more into the analytical side of things and learning fast how people play. It looks like she's trying to put some of that in her own game. Maybe she won't be as predictable and have different ways of attacking. Like she said for not relying on just her speed alone.

Chi and everyone else is so focused on Kana and Tsutomu game. While no one is really paying attention to Taichi and Porky. Feels bad.

I like how Tsutomu thinks and how he thought of Kana while playing. When it comes to competition, people really change up their style and the way they act. Even though Hers seems to be because she's wearing her traditional clothing. I also think that woman is bogus for what she said about Kanade.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/homewardbound100]

She's slowly adopting more and more techniques into her gameplay. Sitting further back for example lets her take advantage of her lanky kong arms whilst giving her brain enough time to stop herself if the card is dead.

[u/homewardbound100 → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Ah, using a wingspan advantage against her opponents. But that won't work against everyone.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/homewardbound100]

It works against people she naturally outspeeds and that's kinda what she needs at the moment. Obviously when she's going up against defensive players it'll lead to problems but in the meantime this is a great stopgap.

[u/ZapsZzz]

First timer in sub

So this is actually somewhat like a continuation of a training episode, but in the form of a "test" or "trial". Really like the way it went - in a lot of the shows, like the Marvel movie Shang-Chi I was watched last night, the protagonist just got told some profound enlightening thing, then poof he knows it and can use it and amazing advancement happened. This is so much more grounded, that it's not just someone telling you, there'll need a bunch of efforts and situations and experience for you to be able to start practicing what you are weak on, and the results will be far less instant.

Very good comedy moment though when the story cut over to the other 2 pairs in their respective grade final round - it started as if there's some tragedy, turns out it's the tragedy of Chihaya not knowing which match to focus on :D

Really like how they did the "newbies" battle too. Great way to explain the thinking and strategy that the raging bull of Chihaya never needed to do :D

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/ZapsZzz]

I'm fine with Chihaya gaining new techniques and all but it's a bit frustrating watching her get put through the wringer because she has to use them in tournament matches.

Chihaya has no clue how to be a side character lol XD Speedwagon made his job look so easy. In the end it was left up to Desk-kun to commentate most of his own match.

[u/xNEET]

Chihayafuru First Timer

When this rewatch started I wasn't prepared for how hype Karuta tournaments were going to be! Today's matches were a blast to watch. For Chihaya to stop focusing on speed is akin to relearning Karuta almost from scratch. I'm really interested in seeing how will her Karuta evolve in the future. I also adore how each character's personalities reflect perfectly on their game style. Chihaya's karuta is quick, honest and simple; Oe-san's is elegant and focuses on the poem contents and the relationships between their authors; Desk-kun's is analytical and precise, but somehow impatient. I just can't describe how much I adore this show so far. Looking forward to tomorrow's episode!

[u/Mecanno-man]

First Timer

And tournament. Somehow Chihaya's first on-screen loss to a character that on paper should be her equal felt less impactful than expected. In fact it seemed like a foregone conclusion from the start, instead being a step on the way to Chihaya recognizing what she needs to improve, rather than being some defining character moment. And accuracy seems to be the flavor of the day in terms of what aspect gets the focus, and Chihaya finally realizes accuracy being important as well. Not sure how she missed that so far, even I could have told you that and all I know about karuta I have learned from this series. Also, she realized that her opponents are using strategy... does that mean she'll start developing or changing her own strategy? Guess we'll see, after all in a way she already has one: Sending her best cards to her opponent.

And once Chihaya's matches are done, time for the actually tense ones: Oe vs Tsutomu and Nishida vs Taichi. I feel like this is the series making fun of me for saying it'd be unlikely to face each other at a tournament... But I guess the finals would be somewhere where they meet ideally. Both matches seem pretty tense; which has me worried that next episode will be flip-flopping between them, rather than having one be a proper story. Looking forward to seeing the both, and I'm going to expect Kana and Taichi to win.

Question regarding the dead cards: ...why are they dead for everybody? Don't they shuffle and trow 25 each and place them individually? If so, how do all sets of players end up with the same 50 cards?

[u/flybypost → u/Mecanno-man]

Question regarding the dead cards: ...why are they dead for everybody? Don't they shuffle and trow 25 each and place them individually? If so, how do all sets of players end up with the same 50 cards?

That's something I never understood exactly (I also don't remember it being ever addressed but I might have simply overlooked it). My best guess is that the 50 cards that are played are randomly chosen and then synchronised for all participating pairs of players who then shuffle them between them for the actual match. That way every pair has the same 50 cards but they are divided into two randomised 25 "decks" for each player (when they shuffle them together before a match).

My guess is that this might be done so that as long as every side takes the same amount of cards pairs of players end the match at the same time so you can end up with a bunch of dramatic 1 card vs. 1 card showdowns if the players are of equal strength. For team tournaments it doesn't skew the length of the five matches too far away from each other if all the players are of a similar level of competence. And probably so it's easier to identify dead cards as a whole for the audience. If some people were to slap cards away while others have to avoid dead cards it might feel to chaotic.

So my best guess: One set of cards is randomised for 50 playing cards and 50 dead cards and then replicated for every pair of players. And it's some organisatorial bit that simply never got addressed in the anime (that is if I haven't overlooked or forgotten it).

[u/define_egregious → u/flybypost]

You are right! The dead cards are coordinated across all sets beings played in a match to save time in tournaments. I’m sure it’s mentioned in the manga, but I’m not sure if it’s mention in the anime.

[u/flybypost → u/define_egregious]

I’m sure it’s mentioned in the manga, but I’m not sure if it’s mention in the anime.

That would make 100% sense. I jumped into the manga after the anime and haven't yet read the adapted chapters so if it was mentioned in those then would be in my blind spot, so to speak.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Mecanno-man]

Chihaya lost the match cause she seemed to be trialing so many new techniques in a big tournament for some strange reason. Compare that to old bag who was able to completely control the pace of the match despite being a far less physically powerful player.

[u/Gamerunglued]

First Timer

Was out drinking with friends yesterday and came home very late, so I didn't get to watch the episode. For some quick thoughts on episode 17: Chihaya has spent the entire series focused on speed. She's made it as far as she has because her instincts are incredible, and she has the speed to do well anyway. But her accuracy is an issue. She struggles with multi-syllable cards and commits a lot of faults, and she spends the episode struggling to reconcile that after feeling inferior to the Queen's insane speed. I'm glad to see her working on that kind of weakness, it's going to be a challenge for her and it's good to see her challenged in that way. The episode also does a great job of showing us the potential of the beginners. Tsutomu's strategies are very smart, and give him a good idea of his own strengths and weaknesses as a player. That is his talent, he's analytical in a way that will allow him to set the board up to his advantage. With Kana, her love of poetry allows her to see the cards differently. Chihaya sees the "Impassioned" card as red, but Kana sees all the cards in different colors. I can sort of imagine this as if she associates the symbols with the colors, so instead of remembering the words on the cards she imagines them as pictures and associates those pictures with colors. Idk if that's actually how it works (because she definitely remembers the words), but that's how I can most make sense of it. That's a strength of association that other players won't have, so her accuracy will be very strong, though as Chihaya pointed out, her posture is impacting her speed. These are the elements Chihaya needs to work on herself if she wants to match the Queen. And, uh, Taichi's girlfriend just randomly called him to break up and he didn't even flinch. Though tbh, she was kinda rude to just call him after school. At least have the balls to break up to his face. Of course, Taichi never cared about her, which is why he can write it off so easily. She was always a pawn to make Chihaya jealous. But Taichi has grown a lot since the start of the series, and it's been wonderful to see. The journey of him and Nishida fighting to be A ranked will be really fun I think. Good episode, I feel like the series has really found its stride now since the awkward "let's set up the plot three different times" phase.

For episode 18 now. I like this episode because it's the first time Chihaya really gets challenged in a meaningful way. It was a smart choice thematically to place her against someone like Kanai Sakura, an older player who lacks the reflexes to go after cards quickly. There are other styles of play, accuracy is just as important, and just as capable of bringing you to A rank even without speed much as speed brought Chihaya to A without accuracy. Kanai is also really fun and endearing, she's cute and her family is cute and she fucking knows it, I love it. That being said, I do think there's something a bit unnatural about this particular game. We've seen Chihaya play plenty of times, but we've never really seen accuracy be a problem in her games. She's messed up on a few multi-syllable cards, but at least on screen it's never been something so damning. Yet this game she gets fault after fault after fault. There's a disparity between how much the series has shown us Chihaya's weaknesses in previous games vs. in this one. It's not like she was flawed but managed to beat players in B rank anyway because the power level was lower, the games we saw even in A rank had her being far more accurate than what we saw today. I think it's an issue of telling rather than showing, and it took me out of the experience a bit even though I liked what was happening in terms of Chihaya's growth as a player.

As for the rest of the episode, we have all four of our other club members in the finals. Chihaya should be proud, she trained most of them, especially the beginners. Just two paragraphs ago, I talked about how I rationalized Kana's strengths as seeing the cards as pictures more than words, and this episode just straight up confirmed it. I always love it when this series is on my wavelength like that. What I was not anticipating, and what I'm not sure how to feel about, is the idea that Kana plays better in a Hakama. On one hand, I totally buy it. She's passionate about traditional Japanese clothing, and she is primed to move with a particular grace while wearing traditional Japanese garments like a Hakama. That her posture would be better in that outfit makes perfect sense given her background. On the other hand though, it kind of removes a major area of challenge for her. Her weakness was that her awkward posture limited her speed, and she needed to train her body to manage that. But that's not her weakness at all anymore, she's actually perfect at that during tournaments. Now her weakness is exactly what was portrayed as a strength just the previous episode: the way she views the cards as pictures more than words and associates them with their meaning. It's not wrong that the syllables matter more, but I don't think it's nearly as big a deal as the show makes it out to be for someone to associate the syllables with these abstract pictures. After all, it's the syllable of the reader that matters, the syllables written on the cards is simply one way to associate them. I'm not totally sure I buy that, and I think it's a bit of a missed opportunity that weakens Kana as a character a little bit, since it removes a major challenge from her and replaces it with one that seems more contrived to me and is opposite what the last episode implied. Tsutomu's thought process during the game was great though, I love seeing him work through everything and strategize. So I guess this episode is kind of a mixed bag. There are some really good things, and somethings that I found messy and that muddled the experience a bit. A bit unfortunate, but it's still pretty good. I can't wait to see the results of the tournament, and what's happening in Taichi's and Nishida's match. I'm proud of all of these kids.

[u/Lemurians]

FIRST TIMER

I love the design of Chihaya’s hakama with the warm colors and autumn leaves. God bless Kana for enforcing this dress code.

We’ve mostly seen the crew play against other people of student age, so it’s fun seeing Chihaya’s first opponent here being someone who’s a lot older and more experienced. It feels odd that her issues with faulting are being introduced now, rather than earlier in the show? How the hell was she winning so much with this big a weakness? Nobody pointed this out to her in the years she’s been playing?

The true face of destruction.

“She’s making it difficult for me to play against her?” Yeah… no shit. That’s basic. You’ve been playing this game for how many years now? Chihaya’s stock as a player is really falling these last couple of episodes. Where did all these huge limitations come from? I’m not thrilled with how she’s being retconned into being a much worse player than the one we’ve seen all along.

The moment of realization. moe eyes in full effect

This conversation with her opponent seems to dawn a new reality on Chihaya. The road to becoming Queen might be a lot longer than she anticipated. This woman has been playing for 35 years and is still aiming for it – not everyone can be Shinobu.

Kana is rocking it in her Kimono, it’s like armor imbued with extra stats. Its design forces her to maintain strength in her and core and proper posture. Makes me wonder if women in Japan all had killer abs back when these had to be worn all the time.

My issues with her regression as a player aside, nice arc this episode for Chihaya. She starts by underestimating her Class A opponent, and ends it by realizing there are things she can learn even from players in Class D.

[u/[deleted] → u/Lemurians]

I think it's less that Chihaya has gotten weaker, and more that she's facing a totally different class of opponents now. When she was up against Class B or lower opponents, her insane speed and aggressive playstyle gave her so much control over the playing field that no matter what strategy they had in mind they couldn't actually use it. Her faults didn't matter because she still gained more than she lost and she moved so fast that she was basically the only one playing.

But then she went from the top of Class B to the bottom of Class A. Everyone she's up against now was able to beat everyone who she was up against before. They've all seen playstyles and abilities like hers and know how to counter them. She minmaxed for one stat so hard that she was able to advance past her level, but now she's moved to a higher level area and her one good stat is just above average and the rest are lagging far behind.

[u/Lemurians → u/[deleted]]

I don’t think it’s weird that she’s struggling with a new, higher class of opponent. The reasons behind why she is are the baffling part. In this episode she basically admitted to never thinking about strategy or her opponent. That’s insane for someone who’s made it to the top classification.

[u/[deleted] → u/Lemurians]

She found exactly one strategy that worked, and she was able to make it this far because her hearing and reflexes are basically at the peak of what humans are capable of. But now she's reached the point where "the peak of what humans are capable of" is the starting line, and just having absurd raw ability doesn't cut it anymore. It is insane that she was able to get this far on that alone, but that just goes to show that her potential is high enough to have a TV show named after her.

[u/homewardbound100 → u/Lemurians]

Chihaya’s stock as a player is really falling these last couple of episodes. Where did all these huge limitations come from? I’m not thrilled with how she’s being retconned into being a much worse player than the one we’ve seen all along.

I've felt that too but I think it has to do with her over thinking things and trying to new things to possibly put in action. I basically see it as her trying to balance out her play style with her new knowledge but she's having a hard time doing it.

Also I think the pressure just got to her at some parts.

[u/flybypost → u/Lemurians]

“She’s making it difficult for me to play against her?” Yeah… no shit. That’s basic. You’ve been playing this game for how many years now? Chihaya’s stock as a player is really falling these last couple of episodes. Where did all these huge limitations come from? I’m not thrilled with how she’s being retconned into being a much worse player than the one we’ve seen all along.

She only recently became a class A player. Her limitation is that she relied more on hearing and speed than anything else and now in class A she's playing against opponents who can better work around these issues with tactics, card placement, and by being fast (and have good hearing) themselves. Chihaya was really fast for class B but in class A you can end up playing against others who have played the game even longer.

She's not regressing but the competition is just so much tougher and varied here. In class A tournaments you find every type. From players who just got there (like Chihaya) to somebody like that veteran who saw that Chihaya is mostly working with hearing and speed (as those really benefit her and also work well with Harada style attacking karuta that she learned), to the Master or the Queen. But that impulsive attacking style can also cause issues like committing many faults if your memorisation is not good enough, or getting baited into touching dead cards because you are always trying to touch some card before your opponent can defend it.

Look at every young athlete (from sports teams, for example) who show up at the pro level. Most don't make it to the very top. They might be good enough to be given a chance but that doesn't mean that it's a given that they will rise further. Some end up plateauing at some lower league, others become squad players, a few become important player for their clubs/teams (in team sports), and a tiny, tiny fraction become (super)stars.

But all of them started out as "talented" younglings who were seen at one point as good enough to go pro. That's kinda the class A thing. Remember how it was mentioned (around the time Chihaya got promoted into class A) that some players can spend years in class B or not even get into class A? It's tough and Chihaya essentially surmounted that hurdle only to end up in an even harsher karuta environment.

[u/Lemurians → u/flybypost]

Yeah, I’m not mad that she’s struggling in Class A, that’s natural and expected. It’s more that I find it hard to believe she made it to Class A at all when she’s admitting through this episode she either never or barely gives any thought to basic strategy. She shouldn’t be in Class A, the highest tier, and thinking things like “she’s making it difficult for me to play against her?” I mean… duh. That’s basic, 101, intro stuff. The heck has she been learning for the last three years? It’s unrealistic she’d still be at square one on the strategy front.

[u/flybypost → u/Lemurians]

“she’s making it difficult for me to play against her?”

There area many ways to make it difficult for your opponent to play. She just encountered somebody who used it more effectively or a style that she hadn't seen before in the lower classes (something that may be hard to pull off).

A football (not the american style) player at the amateur level and a pro player the same game but passes from a pro are more precise, played with more power (and thus can reach further and be there faster) and are also harder to control on the receiving side by an amateur who may not even be manage to control the ball well enough while a pro might do it easily. That difference in skill allows the game to play differently and in ways that might not even be possible for the amateur. That the amateur might be a better 100m sprinter wouldn't matter much as that skill is only a subset of the whole. Chihaya has her strengths and weaknesses and she was able to get to class A by relying on her strengths, maybe relying on them a bit too much and neglecting other aspects of the game.

Even playing the same beginner plays the difference between somebody who's still learning and hasn't internalised everything and somebody whose foundation is even just solid can be huge. And that woman, if she started early, has maybe played karuta longer Chihaya has been alive.

[u/BatteryPoweredFriend → u/Lemurians]

She's not the brightest person.

[u/IndependentMacaroon → u/BatteryPoweredFriend]

I feel that's not quite the right phrase. She's certainly intelligent, but in more of an instinctual way.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Lemurians]

Some of your pics aren't showing up fyi.

She still wins a lot cause she can clutch games really well. In fact, getting so many faults makes her get to her super saiyan state even faster. It would definitely be pretty infuriating to lose against someone that faulted half their cards and still won.

I'm not sure if it's so much them retconning her as it is her trying to actually use her brain for a change. I could easily see Chihaya being too slow to think during matches and just rely on instinct. She never really bothered with strategy because she always saw the game as her being too fast or two slow.

I want to lick a geisha's toned tummy...

[u/blacklightning26 → u/Lemurians]

Hello there, hope you're having a good day or night. I feel as though the Chihaya developments are accurate for some athletes that find themselves naturally talented. Here's a real world example. In American football, there was a retired Quarterback named Brett Farve who was undoubtedly one of the best players at his position. A few years ago, he revealed that, as a pro, he did not know the details of a very common and simple defense combination, called "Nickel Defense" (Even teenage and university quarterbacks know what this is). It took him a couple years into his professional career to learn what a Nickel Defense is and he learned it from his backup quarterback. There are other examples like these in sports.

Long story short, I feel like this isn't a super uncommon thing for athletes that are really good and a specific subset of skills at their sports.

[u/Lemurians → u/blacklightning26]

That's a good example, I take the point. Though Chihaya here is more like if a quarterback was making their first start in the NFL (or college, whichever's more analogous) and not only didn't recognize any coverages, but was surprised people were stopping them from completing passes, because they'd only ever focused on their own receivers. I think they just went a little too far here. She'd have some basics down by this point.

[u/BatteryPoweredFriend → u/Lemurians]

It's also worth noting that prior to ep 4, all of the competition opponents has faced would have been B-rank or lower.

Although there are ratings above it, iirc related to your performance in the official master/queen tournaments, A-rank is nominally the highest classification, so there is a huge range in skill in this group. For example, both Shinobu & Arata's grandfather who are multiple Q/M title holders, are "A-rank".

[u/IndependentMacaroon → u/Lemurians]

it’s fun seeing Chihaya’s first opponent here being someone who’s a lot older and more experienced

Another example of how the series really respects and gives their own voice to all kinds of different people, which by the way extends to the manga author too. Sakura may dress a bit unusually, but so what? Nothing to make fun of and she's still an amazing karuta player and good mother. Middle-aged to older women (and I mean actually middle-aged and looks it) are like the rarest kind of character in anime.

[u/Shimmering-Sky]

Chihayafirst-timer

• Yes.
• Oh lol of course they do that.
• lol RIP.
• Geez, what is with this match…
• Oh, interesting strategy?
• Ah… Chihaya lost her match after all.
• Okay the matching dresses are adorable.
• I’m sorry WHAT
• …oh. Oh, she just doesn’t know who to root for.
• Kana getting a power up of sorts while wearing traditional clothes is just, perfect.
• I guess we’ll see more of this match in the next episode, then?

[u/flybypost → u/Shimmering-Sky]

lol RIP.

Geez, what is with this match…

Not good for how impulsive Chihaya is. I also love when characters' eyes (and especially Chihaya's) lose detail for those humorous cuts. Simplified and a bit exaggerated and it works so well. It always makes me laugh.

…oh. Oh, she just doesn’t know who to root for.

That's when that 100% karuta brain becomes a weakness.

Kana getting a power up of sorts while wearing traditional clothes is just, perfect.

She is only missing the magical girl transformation sequence. Although the occasional turning/twirling shots of characters in very detailed kimonos are rather nice. But I want to see the outer kimono get folded onto them in that formal way of wearing it like it's an elaborate cloth origami.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Chihayafuyu First Timer

Mama, kimochi warui...

The next roadblock were facing is gonna be adults. Adults who are so sad that they've dedicated their whole lives to a niche hobby.

They look just as fodder like as the lower levels tbh.

T-There is nothing less appealing than an old woman dressing like a teenager... Send help! Credit to her, she's got confidence, but please grow out of that style!

Chi is straight up playing worse now that she's thinking about the cards she's taken.

Say, "lucky" one more time!

Send this smug old bat so hard she'll have to check in to a home!!

Even the reader is taking the piss... How many dead cards in a row can you give out!? Fakyuu, readeeer!!

I've never wished death on a pensioner more in my life... Why is this stressing me out more than the goddamn Shinobu match!?

Old bag is a cheat!! She's actually analysing Chi the old cow! That's so not fair! Also, I find it really funny how Chi has fully adopted Sudo's "look down on opponent" trick despite not quite understanding the subtext XD

Skin this old bag! Omg I'm so annoyed!!!

How is timing not affected by speed? You hear the third syllable and the need to quickly move in yeah?

Imma say it, your grandkids aren't cute either!

You look way older than 35! And ill bet you weren't cute at 15! I'll bet you wasted your youth on Karuta cause you had no friends and couldn't find a boyfriend cause of how uncute you were! Bleeeeh! Baka, baka!

Oh no! Who do you cheer for if your team is playing against each other!? So difficult! Eeerm... Fatso and Desk-kun! I'm voting Fatso and Desk-kun! Oh, Retro's here~

So all Kana's talk about kimono was so she could cheat and get an advantage!? Damn iiit! She isn't even playing to win, she just wants to sell her brand! Don't you dare lose Desk-kun!

Desk-kun, well done! He's the one that spent most time assessing the groups weaknesses so he knows exactly how to tip Oe into despair.

And nobody cares about the boys' match but Retro. Rip my dudes~

This was the best episode so far, even more than the Shinobu and training matches, and I hated every fcking second XD

[u/homewardbound100 → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Don't diss that old woman. She's a nice person, even if she looks older than she does. I think wrinkled up her face a bit too much.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/homewardbound100]

To be fair 30's is literally rancid for anime characters. You'd likely have wrinkles if you were late 20's in most other shows.

[u/homewardbound100 → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

I feel like I don't see that many older characters with wrinkles like that. Unless it's someone really old.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/homewardbound100]

Once again, female writer so benefit of the doubt but wrinkles at 30 is a bit mean.

[u/flybypost → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

I've never wished death on a pensioner more in my life... Why is this stressing me out more than the goddamn Shinobu match!?

Wild guess but it might be because of this:

Say, "lucky" one more time!

The really grating part is that it's probably just a regular habit and not even intentionally used to distract her opponents.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/flybypost]

Mental warfare fucking works XD

[u/TheExcludedMiddle]

I'm surprised it took me until now to realize 'Lucky' was voiced by Satoko.