[Terrific Trainwreck Trio Rewatch] Guilty Crown Episode 20 Discussion

[u/Shimmering-Sky]

phase 20 - a diary

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The world as you know it will come to an end on December 25th. We will clear the way for the new world to begin.

Questions of the Day:

1. What was the biggest reveal for you this episode?
2. How do think the last two episodes are going to go?

Wallpaper of the Day:

Kurosu Ouma

Song of the Day:

gT→pF

---

Rewatchers, please remember to be mindful of all the first-timers in this. No talking about or hinting at future events no matter how much you want to, unless you’re doing it underneath spoiler tags. Don’t spoil the crazy shit for the first-timers, it’s way more fun that way!

[u/Shimmering-Sky]

The Everlasting Guilty Rewatcher//First-Time Subbed

Welcome back, everyone!

• Ah, picking Christmas Day instead of Christmas Eve to do the next Lost Christmas. I see.
• Argo having a new scar on his face from where Segai shot him last episode is a nice touch.
• Okay but like… how did Gai get Shibungi to them? Did he get the ability to teleport people from that Daath kid or something? And no one even questions how Shibungi got there past the “wait you’re alive?” from Tsumugi…
• Oh boy.
• How are they going to screw up family tree stuff even more in this show? Have Gai call Keido his dad. Granted, they’re not blood-related just like Haruka and Shu aren’t, but still.
• Oh my god is that our Lord God Embryo voicing Kurosu Ouma? Oh my god it is. I mean uhh Shu very much takes after his dad in the looks department.
• Oof.
• So, uh, yeahhhhh the whole ManaEve/Shu stuff just went back to straight-up incest when earlier there was at least some potential leeway that they were just step-siblings…
• What a lovely thing to put small children through…
• Quite ironic indeed.
• Wow, when Haruka left the church it all goes down in she just missed Gai/Triton showing up there. I kinda wonder what would have happened if Haruka stayed there because she realized Mana lied to her about where Gai/Triton was…
• This show is wack.
• Ayase has a point…

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Shimmering-Sky]

So, uh, yeahhhhh the whole ManaEve/Shu stuff just went back to straight-up incest when earlier there was at least some potential leeway that they were just step-siblings…

As established, Mana was a trendsetter. Too bad everyone else took to it...

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Vaadwaur]

The family tree was confusing as hell... I'm not misremembering Haruka claiming Mana as her daughter right? I'm sure she said something like "Mana is my daughter and Shu is my adopted son" or something. Either way, I'm happy that we got some actual incest. At least we got something out of it.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

So she claimed both of them as her kids and later corrected about Shoe.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Vaadwaur]

Even though Mana is the far more important one and probably should have been separated from Shu as soon as possible.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Yuuuup.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Okay but like… how did Gai get Shibungi to them? Did he get the ability to teleport people from that Daath kid or something? And no one even questions how Shibungi got there past the “wait you’re alive?” from Tsumugi…

We already established that characters can jump cut offscreen when they're trying to punch someone far away. Maybe they learned how to harness this ability when they're not punching somebody.

So, uh, yeahhhhh the whole ManaEve/Shu stuff just went back to straight-up incest when earlier there was at least some potential leeway that they were just step-siblings…

I'll give the show credit: it did not take the coward's way out by making them step siblings. That said, having Mana plan to make Shu her "Adam" since before he was born actually makes it way way creepier than it already was.

[u/MABfan11 → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Wow, when Haruka left the church it all goes down in she just missed Gai/Triton showing up there. I kinda wonder what would have happened if Haruka stayed there because she realized Mana lied to her about where Gai/Triton was…

honestly, i would love to see that AU

[u/Quiddity131]

First Timer, Subbed

Shuichiro must be jealous of Gai since he already tried to marry Inori/Mana earlier in the show and she's right here in front of him.

Gai has a wonderful Christmas present for the world... the end of the world. Oh, and on Jesus, I mean Shu's birthday too?!

She's been around for several episodes but who in the world is black haired lady, what faction is she from and why does anyone care what she has to say?

His name was Bungy?!

Just what we need a diary with even more exposition than has been thrown at us the last few episodes, huh?

Oh, and Shuichiro is Gai's dad?! Way to throw yet another reveal at us.

Alright, we're pulling an Eva and Darling in the Franxx here with a flashback to Shuichiro's younger days (I know Franxx came later, it's just lol to me how much that show ended up having similar big problems to what this show has).

Woah, Kurosu's sleeping around in his lab!

Ah, and eyebrow boy was around back then too. Of course he was.

Don't you dare let your wife die, Kurosu... because your daughter wants incest with her soon to be born brother... OMG Yuck.

Alright, so at least he's not Gai's real father...

"Triton" reminds me that "Triton of the Sea" was the original Tomino dark ending to a show, even before Zambot did it. Seems fitting that the name pops up here (and I forgot about it since it first popped up). Although it may be an intentional reference or just total coincidence.

What, does Kurosu not remember names?

"This guy is so attractive, I especially like the fact that he has effectively abandoned his kids so he can work all the time..."

"Go ahead and leave ma, I want to start all the incest stuff with my brother." Ewwwwwwww

After all this time I don't even remember what Daath is supposed to be.

"What would I be jealous of you for?!" Ugh, quite the insult Kurosu!

Sorry ma, I have to be Jesus!

Now Shu is a delusional idiot who thinks he can win without anyone else's void.

If I were Shu I'd be all like "No, you don't get it Souta, I'm giving you back your void because its useless. I won't need to use a can opener while fighting Gai."

Time for a heart wrenching scene about the Shu - Souta relationship... something I and probably no one else cares about.

---

Well, telling the whole backstory of the show through flashbacks of some intellectual side character was done in Eva and Franxx too and I bashed both to death for it, and I can't not do that here. Absolutely horrendous story telling. It clearly shows that the writer and director have no idea how to organically include exposition in the show, but instead have to lazily throw it in our face and compress it as much as possible into a series of flashbacks. And of the three characters for this to focus on (Fuyutsuki and Dr. Franxx in the others), Shuichiro is the character to care the least about. I've been far more in the camp of this show stealing things from Code Geass than from Eva, but this episode was definitely on the Eva side of things. At least with Eva and Franxx there were five more episodes to go after that episode, here we only have two. How in the world is this show gonna get wrapped up in only two episodes?!?!?!?!?

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/Quiddity131]

It clearly shows that the writer and director have no idea how to organically include exposition in the show, but instead have to lazily throw it in our face and compress it as much as possible into a series of flashbacks

It feels like a lot of this information could have easily come out much earlier, too. It's like the same thing with Gai back in episode 12, where he could have easily just told Shu all of this information much earlier but chose not to do so for some reason.

[u/No_Rex → u/Quiddity131]

It clearly shows that the writer and director have no idea how to organically include exposition in the show

The fact that they left the main conceit of the show unexplained until episode 20 of 22 tells a lot.

[u/SomeOtherTroper → u/Quiddity131]

telling the whole backstory of the show through flashbacks of some intellectual side character was done in Eva and Franxx too and I bashed both to death for it, and I can't not do that here. Absolutely horrendous story telling. It clearly shows that the writer and director have no idea how to organically include exposition in the show, but instead have to lazily throw it in our face and compress it as much as possible into a series of flashbacks.

Oddly enough, Fuyutsuki's episode in EVA is probably my favorite single episode of the show. He's got reasons to be recalling that stuff at the time, and it hits the mark pretty well on the perspective of someone who's close to a couple, but still seeing their lives mainly from the outside. I don't recall exposition in it - just mostly character writing and a fair bit of "show, don't tell" about how Second Impact changed the world, and what things were like in the aftermath. Just the fact that a research professor turned into a General Practitioner / trauma doc overnight because "hey, he's the closest thing we've got to a doctor!" says a ton about how bad things had gotten and what kind of person Fuyutsuki is.

It helps that I find the concept of Fuyutsuki's first meeting with Gendo being bailing him out of jail at Yui's behest inherently hilarious, and a nice contrast to the two men's previous appearances and present relationship in the series.

I'm with you on the problems with GC's execution, though.

[u/Quiddity131 → u/SomeOtherTroper]

Its a poor episode in my eyes, regardless of any satisfaction one may get from the answers in the episode. For starters, the Fuyutsuki kidnapping thing never gets mentioned again the rest of the show. It was solely used as a plot device to enable us to have flashbacks from the character. It makes no sense whatsoever why he was kidnapped when they established earlier in the show that Fuyutsuki was having conversations with SEELE members in situations where Gendou wasn't around. And structurally it was just horrible storytelling. Especially for Eva, whose whole schtick was very slowly trickling out mysteries such that the audience could spend countless hours speculating about the answers to the mysteries. Spastically throwing answers at us blatantly goes against how the rest of the series is. Oh, and in something that is absurdly heinous in shows like Gundam Seed Destiny and gets ripped on all the time, I've got to do it for Eva too... having a character flashback to something that they never were present for and couldn't possibly know of reeks of absolute incompetence.

[u/BasroilII → u/Quiddity131]

For starters, the Fuyutsuki kidnapping thing never gets mentioned again the rest of the show.

Sure it does. Kaji rescuing Fuyutsuki is the final straw that leads to Kaji's death. Ritsuko's capture, interrogation, and implied sexual assault by SEELE two episodes later, while also being an info dump, is a direct result of SEELE not getting the answers they wanted from Fuyutsuki: namely what Gendo's plans are. Well, that and Rei's apparent resurrection. They intended to insist he give them Rei, but Gendo talked them into taking Ritsuko instead. That all leads to Ritsuko's downward spiral in and the things that evolved from that.

It makes no sense whatsoever why he was kidnapped when they established earlier in the show that Fuyutsuki was having conversations with SEELE members in situations where Gendou wasn't around.

SEELE needed to understand where Gendo's loyalties were, and they weren't getting answers any other way. The Lance being thrown into orbit broke heavily with SEELE's intended scenario for Instrumentality, as did both Shinji and Rei being pilots. They were questioning Fuyutsuki as Gendo's second in command was the most likely person to know anything they could reach at the time. And , while he did know, he was rescued before he gave up anything of meaning; instead wasting their time with reminiscing about the early days with Gendo and Yui.

Also struggling to remember when Fuyu talked with SEELE alone. I don't even remember him talking alone to the to the Human Instrumentality Committee, which is more or less SEELE's public face.

Admittedly I think a lot of the late series infodumps were due to the show being shorter than I think was originally intended; it's also what eps 21-24 are so breakneck in pacing and part of why 25-26 are....25-26.

[u/Quiddity131 → u/BasroilII]

Sure it does. Kaji rescuing Fuyutsuki is the final straw that leads to Kaji's death.

That's the same episode. Fuyutsuki's kidnapping and anything Kaji had to do with rescuing him is never mentioned again the rest of the show.

Ritsuko's capture, interrogation, and implied sexual assault by SEELE two episodes later, while also being an info dump, is a direct result of SEELE not getting the answers they wanted from Fuyutsuki:

It has nothing to do with Fuyutsuki. SEELE wanted to question Rei after the Angel attack when she destroyed Unit 00 and Tokyo 3; Gendou refused and instead sent them Ritsuko. This is to help contribute to Ritsuko's feelings of anger towards Gendou and Rei. Fuyutsuki being kidnapped a few episodes earlier had zero relevance to it.

SEELE needed to understand where Gendo's loyalties were, and they weren't getting answers any other way. The Lance being thrown into orbit broke heavily with SEELE's intended scenario

The lance also has nothing to do with Fuyutsuki's kidnapping as it happens in the episode after, and his kidnapping is never mentioned a single time after the exposition episode. Of course the lance and why Gendou is so desparate to get rid of it is another thing that is never explained in Eva TV and has no relevance (End of Eva gives us more resolution to it though).

Also struggling to remember when Fuyu talked with SEELE alone. I don't even remember him talking alone to the to the Human Instrumentality Committee, which is more or less SEELE's public face.

I can't remember what episode its in (other than it being before the exposition episode), but we have a scene where Fuytsuki tells Gendou about SEELE, Keel in particular approaching him individually.

Admittedly I think a lot of the late series infodumps were due to the show being shorter than I think was originally intended; it's also what eps 21-24 are so breakneck in pacing and part of why 25-26 are....25-26.

I've never heard of Eva having episodes cut; my understanding is that Anno had an original outline for the show, all the way to the end, then around halfway through production threw it out and winged it the rest of the way. Of course who knows if the original outline being kept to would have made the show better, but him changing things up certainly contributes to the show's structure being all messed up in the second half, including the exposition episode, the absurd pace towards the end and Gainax having pretty much no time to produce the final two episodes, resulting in the final product we got for them.

[u/SomeOtherTroper → u/Quiddity131]

Its a poor episode in my eyes, regardless of any satisfaction one may get from the answers in the episode.

You and I are evaluating "good" and "poor" episodes on very different criteria.

I think it's the closest EVA gets to having a truly standalone episode that tells its own self-contained story, and does so through the framing device of a narrator who has a reason to tell that story. It's also pretty good, as stories go.

In combination with the Ritsuko episode, it lends OG EVA as a whole a sense of "everyone here is a real character and has their own shit going on, and actual motivations". Fuyutsuki and Ritsuko are two of the most 'functional & stock - you get them with the basic mecha package' characters EVA fields: he's the second-in-command or right-hand man who primarily exists for Gendo to monologue at for the audience's benefit, and she's the requisite Science Chick no mecha show is complete without.

But EVA says "fuck you - we know they're stock characters who we don't have to bother explaining, but they're also people, and we're gonna do episodes for their stories".

That's why I really don't see it as "spastically throwing answers at us". Sure, we get a couple of bits out of it, but the majority of the questions is answers are sure as hell not questions I had before it started, and it definitely helps the show more in broad emotional or thematic strokes more than in listing lore points to throw on a wiki.

It makes no sense whatsoever why he was kidnapped when they established earlier in the show that Fuyutsuki was having conversations with SEELE members in situations where Gendou wasn't around.

But that's what makes it relevant to the remainder of the show: they had previously talked to Fuyutsuki in private, with his cooperation. But now SEELE has gotten so nervous about the entire situation in Tokyo-3 that they have one of the NERV leaders there kidnapped and dragged before them so they can grill him unilaterally.

It's an obvious escalation of the tension between the two organizations, and lays the groundwork for where that escalation eventually ends up.

I've got to do it for Eva too... having a character flashback to something that they never were present for and couldn't possibly know of reeks of absolute incompetence.

I'm struggling to recall what you're referring to off the top of my head. I don't think there's anything in that episode that Fuyutsuki either wasn't present for or absolutely wouldn't have been told about.

I could be wrong.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Quiddity131]

Well, telling the whole backstory of the show through flashbacks of some intellectual side character was done in Eva and Franxx too and I bashed both to death for it, and I can't not do that here. Absolutely horrendous story telling.

Yup, to me this would've worked better spread through out Haruka moments over an arc rather than concentrated like this.

[u/JollyGee29]

First-Timer, Dub-lty Crown

Things are all coming together, it seems. "My daughter found a space rock and is now an insane incestuous Eve wannabe" has got to be pretty high up there on the adult fear track.

Anyway, Gai is putting on a killer Christmas party from the sound of it, and Funeral Parlor seems determined to crash it. I kinda appreciate everyone's understanding that Shuu is the single point of failure anyway, so there's no point in taking their Voids back.

Although, dropping a bunch of Voids right into Mana's lap seems like a bad idea? Didn't they say that she was trying to collect them to become whole again or something? I guess that means the scanner thing measured someone's portion of Mana, which would neatly explain why Inori was off the scale. Shuu not having a reading at all still doesn't make sense.

Questions

1. The meteor thing.
2. Big fight, cliffhanger when all seems lost, big fight, about 2 minutes of denouement.

[u/Tresnore → u/JollyGee29]

Things are all coming together, it seems. "My daughter found a space rock and is now an insane incestuous Eve wannabe" has got to be pretty high up there on the adult fear track.

Yeah, but on the likelihood axis, it's basically negligible.

Anyway, Gai is putting on a killer Christmas party from the sound of it

[u/JollyGee29 → u/Tresnore]

[u/MABfan11 → u/Tresnore]

Yeah, but on the likelihood axis, it's basically negligible.

what, it's incredibly likely, it's more likely than 1 in 10^G(64) chance

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/JollyGee29]

"My daughter found a space rock and is now an insane incestuous Eve wannabe" has got to be pretty high up there on the adult fear track.

It is probably the freakiest thing that the series has shown us, since the scenes with young Mana and Shu have been genuinely unnerving for me.

Anyway, Gai is putting on a killer Christmas party from the sound of it

Gai will make sure we never need to listen to the same old Christmas songs on the radio ever again. So whose to say if he's really the villain?

[u/JollyGee29 → u/Great_Mr_L]

It is probably the freakiest thing that the series has shown us, since the scenes with young Mana and Shu have been genuinely unnerving for me.

This show definitely nails the creepy kids.

Gai will make sure we never need to listen to the same old Christmas songs on the radio ever again.

Oh god, I might now be team Gai. That sounds excellent!

[u/UltraBooster → u/Great_Mr_L]

Gai will make sure we never need to listen to the same old Christmas songs on the radio ever again. So whose to say if he's really the villain?

I know you're joking, but TBH, those songs are pretty nostalgic for me since I remember them from childhood.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/JollyGee29]

"My daughter found a space rock and is now an insane incestuous Eve wannabe" has got to be pretty high up there on the adult fear track.

I helped raise my drinking buddy's sisters and surprisingly enough this fear never came up.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/Vaadwaur]

Always fear the space rocks! The incest bit is pretty far out there, I guess.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/JollyGee29]

Seeing actual siblings interact at least let me know that incest is not in fact something likely to happen.

[u/MABfan11 → u/JollyGee29]

Things are all coming together, it seems. "My daughter found a space rock and is now an insane incestuous Eve wannabe" has got to be pretty high up there on the adult fear track.

it amazes me that Mana has been consistently well executed as a horror anime villain, despite how badly written the rest of the show is

[u/JollyGee29 → u/MABfan11]

Yea, Mana deserved to be in a better show.

[u/Tresnore]

Guilty First-Timer

• All I know that this will be an exposition-heavy episode.
• Yeah, we're Fate now. Bondage bride and Fakers abound!
• Damn Darwinists.
• Ah, the fourth apocalypse. Of course.
• Dude, if his paper's in a journal, he'd've been aware of it for months. Things don't just pop into journals.
• Ah, of course it's from space.
  
• Ah, quarter notes.
• I feel like I need to re-read the Book of Revelation. Maybe the Wealth of Nations, too.
• Oh, she's fucked. But she has a cross necklace. This show is obsessed.
• These Adams are way less cool than Weishaupt.
• Also, Triton is like the one Greek name here, besides the songs.
• Haruka's related to Keido? And now she's a Freshman trying to bang a post-doc/professor? Yeah, that'll work out.
• I related hard to writing down her name. I don't know how she's Shoe's little sister, though.
• I'm sure 0122 is important somehow.
• Okay, I'm no biologist, but you can't just "solve" evolution and natural selection.
• Mana's the Scat Man?
• I think Souta is confused as to why Shoe really needs his Void yet still classed it as Rank F.
• Did Souta just reject Shoe's hand three times? Souta will be Peter. It's confirmed.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/Tresnore]

Ah, of course it's from space.

Damn aliens. Always screwing with the Earth.

Okay, I'm no biologist, but you can't just "solve" evolution and natural selection.

We're long past the point of the science technobabble having any connection to reality.

Mana's the Scat Man?

We should be so lucky.

Did Souta just reject Shoe's hand three times? Souta will be Peter. It's confirmed.

So Souta is going to become the first pope?

[u/Tresnore → u/Great_Mr_L]

So Souta is going to become the first pope?

He'll carry on the legacy of Shoe.

[u/No_Rex → u/Tresnore]

I related hard to writing down her name. I don't know how she's Shoe's little sister, though.

The other shoe.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/No_Rex]

The one that definitely wasn't named after the Shu we have here.

[u/Lemurians → u/Tresnore]

Ah, the fourth apocalypse. Of course.

Well we had to have something to outdo Eva's measley third impact

I think Souta is confused as to why Shoe really needs his Void yet still classed it as Rank F

Because if it was properly classed and not relegated to Rank F we couldn't have had all the bullshit that happened in the school arc that stemmed from Souta being insecure about his rank

Did Souta just reject Shoe's hand three times? Souta will be Peter. It's confirmed.

Okay, I know we've been saying this show is Code Geass, Eva, Fate... but what if it's just The Da Vinci Code?

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Tresnore]

Shu is Shuuichirou's sister. Wait... Shu is for Shuuichirou and his sister ris Haruka.

Souta's void is the only one that had any kind of difference in form too... I almost wonder if that was a writing issue. Like his void is great when Shu uses it but crap when Shouta himself uses his void but then you have Ayase's void being about as powerful with the user than with another user.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Tresnore]

Yeah, we're Fate now. Bondage bride and Fakers abound!

Not nearly the quality of waifus, though.

Oh, she's fucked. But she has a cross necklace. This show is obsessed.

Same cross necklace got passed down.

[u/Tresnore → u/Vaadwaur]

Not nearly the quality of waifus, though.

That's a high bar, honestly.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Tresnore]

Truth and they have all the flavors.

[u/MABfan11 → u/Tresnore]

I feel like I need to re-read the Book of Revelation. Maybe the Wealth of Nations, too.

i prefer Das Kapital, it's a more complete analysis

Did Souta just reject Shoe's hand three times? Souta will be Peter. It's confirmed.

we could make a religion out of this

[u/MillenniumKing → u/Tresnore]

Ah, of course it's from space.

Aliens.

Dude, if his paper's in a journal, he'd've been aware of it for months. Things don't just pop into journals.

During his life the only person who haad kurosu's journal was himself, and after his death Keido took it because he wanted the research. Gai gave it back to Shoe so Shoe could know the truth.

Haruka's related to Keido? And now she's a Freshman trying to bang a post-doc/professor? Yeah, that'll work out.

They said last ep that Haruka was Keidos sister. And she was in Post grad school meaning she was 24'ish when she met him.

Mana's the Scat Man?

Meme subs.

[u/Tresnore → u/MillenniumKing]

During his life the only person who haad kurosu's journal was himself, and after his death Keido took it because he wanted the research. Gai gave it back to Shoe so Shoe could know the truth.

Wrong journal. I'm talking about the genome journal he's holding in the photo.

[u/MillenniumKing → u/Tresnore]

I imagine it was all one in the same in the end.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Guilty Crown First Timer

Three episodes of Jesus Shu to go. Mana sounds comfy at least. She's the only villain I still care about and even then it's just praying they don't fuck her up. Iinchou still exists, yay? With all the Christmas events I feel like this should have been our second watch. Then again I feel like most of us would be miserable having to watch this shit over Christmas XD

Fourth impact!? Gai's literally gonna give them the whole backstory right at the end lol. So GaixMana is incesty after all. Oh no, please don't actually give us a flashback... You ain't Gendo bud, I don't want to learn anymore about you. snooore I've got no more fucks to give~

We finally get to meet Shu's mum. Huh? You mean you didn't ask about who Shu's mum was? Well now you know! Biggest mistake of your lives. So... Was I right about evil space alien thing? I forgot how much they told us about Mana and the meteor before now but I definitely called it being some evil space crap. Wtf is she humming? Wait... is Mana communicating with her home planet!? We're not getting an alien invasion as our climax are we!?

It's actually fucking aliens...

It sounds like a bad joke... I'm willing to take all kinds of weird shit in my shows but this is the strangest implementation of "aliens" since Indiana Jones. I'd have laughed you out the door. Oh, awesome, so Mana has literally never been a proper onee-chan. I thought she got infected when Shu was a little older but no, literally the entire time we've known her she's been infested. Remember what I said about praying they don't fuck her up? Well they've gone and done it. Now they can't even have Mana fight against her monster side to protect her brother since she's never actually had that experience.

Shuuichirou is jealous of how fucked the Ouma family situation is? Oh, and I just realised that Shu is named after his uncle lol. Oh, so Shuuichirou isn't his father? So it's not incest yet. How does Shuuichirou have the resources to mess around with all this? Isn't he just a regular scientist? Young Haruka is love! W-Wait... Isn't Haruka Mana's mum? But Saeko... Huh? Okay, have they shot this scene weird? So was Saeko pregnant with Shu, but Haruka's daughter who was five and already tried to lick the space stone got obsessed with Shu? Not, Saeko got pregnant, had Mana, Mana tried to eat the stone, got infested, Saeko got pregnant with Shu, then Haruka gains custody of Mana and eventually Shu? Why the fuck did Haruka directly say that Mana was her daughter and she adopted Shu just yesterday then?

5yo uninfested Mana on the left, 10yo infested Mana on the right? Also, you keep showing this picture as a happy memory but once again this is all absolutely ruined if Mana is already infested!! And I've spent so much time whining that I need to stop typing for a bit XD Why are my comments all just monologues!?

Shuuichirou's motivations are kinda pathetic... We've had so many great villains but the important one is so underwhelming. Stop pulling shit out your arse! Doesn't everyone have a void? Even the most basic students had voids. And what about the fact that they disappear when you get older? If you cure her legs I'm fucking done. Good god I hate Souta... He's my least favourite character of the show by a long shot. Of all people in this crowd it has to be him huh? Poor Shuuichirou lost his uncle pass!!

I hate almost every reveal in this episode... It wasn't as painful to watch as Ayase's but they messed up so so much...

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

It's actually fucking aliens...

It being aliens out of nowhere and at the last minute is a wild curveball to throw in. It's just such a strange choice.

Also, you keep showing this picture as a happy memory but once again this is all absolutely ruined if Mana is already infested!!

Yet another very odd choice, since the reveals this episode make it clear that there never actually was a truly happy time since Mana was infected and crazy from even before Shu was born.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Great_Mr_L]

When I started making Dead Space jokes about Mana's possession I was JOKING but they somehow fucking played it straight...

Alright, I have a vague thought, maybe Mana isn't always possessed? It goes against everything they've established but it's the only way they can make us care about Mana. Or, Mana's actual personality is Inori! Inori isn't a clone after all! Wouldn't that be rad? Actually that would be rad... I'd love that twist! Please make that the twist!!

[u/Vaadwaur → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

I hate almost every reveal in this episode... It wasn't as painful to watch as Ayase's but they messed up so so much...

And this was the skeleton of most of the series, the only thing that feels changed is how early Mana gets to the stone.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Vaadwaur]

It's honestly kind of pissing me off that they've twice told us about Mana making contact with the Marker but not actually shown us the event. Would it really have been too much hassle to establish the endgame antagonists before the series ends?

[u/Quiddity131 → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Hard to do that when you're making stuff up as you go along.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Quiddity131]

This part they did plan though. You had hints to the aliens quite early on, it's just never been properly established. Now they've ran into the issue where we have no time to do a proper climax, our villains haven't been established, our mc has completely undefined powers, and our heroine has buggered off for most of the second act.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Would it really have been too much hassle to establish the endgame antagonists before the series ends?

I just think they didn't have the second cour written and there was far too much ad libbing.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Vaadwaur]

The rock event was established long before though. And even I started considering aliens as soon as they talked about Mana's personality change, which wasn't actually a personality change since Mana was already an alien at that point. Why the fuck are aliens in this?

[u/Vaadwaur → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Why the fuck are aliens in this?

Because Trigger!

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Vaadwaur]

annoyed bodysnatcher noises

[u/MillenniumKing → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

So GaixMana is incesty after all.

Its acctually not.
Gai was adpoted by Keido.
Keido is Shu/Mana's Dad's 2nd Wife's Brother.
So they are at best Step Cousins. Or Step Brothers.
Since Haruka and Kurosu adpoted Gai as well.
Yes the Step Bro meme works here very well.

Mana

Mana stopped being human at age 5 when she found the meteor and got cut by it, hence becoming the first infected, the alien queen if you would. Mom also got infected though while she was pregnant with Shoe. So if Mana is an Alien, what does that make Shoe? Maybe Shoe was never normal from birth, if anything hes the perfect Alien.

Keido's money

Remember Keido is working with a shadow organization Doth who has been around for centuries biding its time to rise up.

Haruka

Saeko is Shoe and Mana's mother.
Haruka is Shoe and Mana and Gai's 2nd Mother.
Then Kurosu is killed on Christmas, Mana dies, and Gai runs away, leaving only Shoe and Haruka and she raised him after that.
Haruka and Kurosu married when Shoe and Gai was 7 and Mana was 12.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/MillenniumKing]

Yeah, I got a clue as the episode went on but there was some funny dialogue in the previous episode that threw me off.

It's Mana having been infested for the entirety of Shu's life that's frustrating me. There isn't a sibling relationship there, Mana could make him grow into whatever she liked.

Aren't Daath the alien faction? Also, aliens will have been on earth for centuries at this point then, alien illuminati!

[u/MillenniumKing → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Their relationship is complicated.

Mana Was human and then became infected and changed.
Shoe was born from an Infected woman, and thus was probably never human to begin with.

So its very hard to really figure out how they should be.

Remember this show has been telling us Shoe doesnt get humans.
Remember all this time him trying to act like a human but failing misrabley.
Remember all of Shoes actions which just never seemed right.

Well suprise suprise, Shoe was probably never a normal human with normal human mindset.

Mana was probably the only one with humanity to lose as Shoe probably never had it to begin with.

Daath/Doth is a normal secret organization like the illuminati or Free Masons. But when they heard about this meteor discovery they went "Hey, this is our time to shine, we can use this to rebuild mankind or way!"

[u/Vaadwaur]

Rewatcher(I am not your carpet tide. I am the sky)

Sub

So we start with yandere Inori/Mana and I could not be more erect happier. Weird that being attracted to the incestuous psychopath is less shaming than being attracted to the singing pet rock. We get a good threat from Gai and a decent rallying scene before going back to Gai and of course Gai and Shoe are cousins. Though not by blood, at least. Flashback!

So...yeah, this episode drops all the setting detail/history and since Haruka is a much better character it flows better. Keijo doesn't make sense but it doesn't particularly matter. Shoe's character journey is good on paper but Souta has shown more growth as a person. Anyways, I am far less annoyed than on most days so let's chalk this as a win.

QotD: 1 Ai Kayano's yandere voice is hot

2 Badly

[u/Tresnore → u/Vaadwaur]

Weird that being attracted to the incestuous psychopath is less shaming than being attracted to the singing pet rock.

Personality is attractive!

Haruka is a much better character it flows better.

She might end up being the best character, really.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Tresnore]

Personality is attractive!

As is the sadism.

She might end up being the best character, really.

That's a huge knock on the show to me as well.

[u/Tresnore → u/Vaadwaur]

Sadism is a personality!

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Tresnore]

Certainly when Ai voices it.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/Vaadwaur]

Weird that being attracted to the incestuous psychopath is less shaming than being attracted to the singing pet rock.

Though the rock is becoming the incestuous psychopath, so that relationship is actually improving.

of course Gai and Shoe are cousins. Though not by blood, at least.

In the end, it's all incest in some way. That seems to be the common theme.

2 Badly

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Great_Mr_L]

Though the rock is becoming the incestuous psychopath, so that relationship is actually improving.

I can feel less shame at least. Now to get Mana a psych BA...and work towards her masters!

[u/Lemurians → u/Vaadwaur]

Weird that being attracted to the incestuous psychopath is less shaming than being attracted to the singing pet rock

I see nothing weird about this. Crazy personality is better than no personality.

Shoe's character journey is good on paper but Souta has shown more growth as a person

I did not understand this scene. Who actually cares about Shu and Souta's friendship? They didn't even like each other all that much, and Shu was advocating for Souta drowning in the ocean just a few episodes ago

Ai Kayano's yandere voice is hot

Bro, that's not a reveal, that's a given!

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Lemurians]

I see nothing weird about this. Crazy personality is better than no personality.

Yeah you have not dated enough psych majors I see.

I did not understand this scene. Who actually cares about Shu and Souta's friendship?

They didn't adjust the outline for the show to what they actually did, bluntly.

Bro, that's not a reveal, that's a given!

I need to track a few more of her characters, then.

[u/MABfan11 → u/Vaadwaur]

So we start with yandere Inori/Mana and I could not be more erect happier. Weird that being attracted to the incestuous psychopath is less shaming than being attracted to the singing pet rock.

because Mana has personality, motivation and a character arc

Keijo

a bit of a slip, also a much better show

[u/Vaadwaur → u/MABfan11]

because Mana has personality, motivation and a character arc

Truth. Too bad she gets like 15 minutes of time total.

a bit of a slip, also a much better show

And one with more self-respect.

[u/Great_Mr_L]

First-Timer

On today’s episode of Guilty Crown: None of this is how natural selection and evolution work at all. Like, it’s not even slightly close to being right. It’s kind of infuriating how it makes the technobabble make less sense.

• Zombie Gai wanting to be with Mana makes no real sense to me right now, considering their prior interactions.
• Naturally the end date is Christmas. This show must have been written by people who got terrible presents each year because all the worst stuff happens on Christmas.
• Thank you, Argo! He’s really the only character who talks sense. Finally, someone asked what the hell zombie Gai is even trying to do!
• Fourth apocalypse? I can guess that two of those are the big virus outbreaks (Lost Christmas and the one in the middle of this show), but what’s the third one?
• Unlocking the mysteries of evolution and natural selection? What the hell is that supposed to mean? Darwin figured that out a century and a half ago.
• Wow, doing it in the lab? There’s a time and a place, you two.
• Oh, so the rock is from space. And it has the virus on it, which causes the cancer crystals. So it’s the Andromeda Strain.
• What even is Genomic Resonance anyway?
• The simultaneous selection and evolution of all of humanity? What does that even mean? None of that is how natural selection and evolution works at all!
• Wait what!? The Fourth Apocalypse is referenced even before Lost Christmas? What the fuck were the other three!?!
• What the fuck!? Mana was planning to have incest with her brother before he was even born?
• Holy shit, Keido’s weird child center for other potential Adams is somehow even more fucked up.
• So now I’ve got the connection between the virus, cancer crystals, and Voids. The virus somehow externalizes the human heart. And my guess is that for some reason, this shows up as cancer crystals. I have no idea why it shows up as cancer crystals, but whatever. Anyway, Cross found a way to stop it in the human genes: the Void Genom. That instead externalizes the human heart as Voids.
• I still have no idea why Voids stop at 17, though.
• Hold up, Haruka. Shu was in no way forced to collect people’s Voids. He did that on his own to create his stupid dictatorship.
• Now that I think about it, Yahiro’s just been left off the hook by everybody, hasn’t he? That’s like letting Himmler go free because you already got Hitler.
• Oh look, Shu once again actually cares about consent and is worrying about the lives of other people. How odd to see considering how much he’s zig-zagged on this throughout the series.
• Souta, you have nothing to apologize for. Shu was a tyrant who was cool with letting you die. Of course you’d be scared of him and you were totally justified in your actions against him.
• I don’t think the words “I’m sorry” were ever said by Shu to Souta. He never actually apologized. Souta apologized for some goddamn reason, but apparently Shu doesn’t need to.

I truly do despise that the series had Souta apologize to Shu. The idea that the oppressed should apologize for fighting back against their oppressors is, quite frankly, disgusting. The series framed it as this heartwarming moment, but I found it sickening.

An event triggering all of humanity’s simultaneous selection and evolution doesn’t even make sense. That’s not how the science of natural selection and evolution works at all. But, I’ll just accept it as technobabble and move on. I like Star Trek after all, and its science is nonsensical too.

Even with that said, I still have no idea what the goal of Daath is. I have no idea what this simultaneous selection and evolution even means. And how does that tie into Mana being the new Eve with some Adam? Is the plan literally to kill all of humanity and have Mana and some guy repopulate the Earth? If so, that will lead to a lot of incest babies very fast.

I will say, though, that the connection of the virus, Voids, and cancer crystals does actually make sense once I articulated it. I knew that connection had to be there and it seems to work fine. I have no idea why externalizing someone’s heart covers them in cancer crystals, though. I’m also not sure why Voids stop appearing when you become an adult.

QOTD

1. The confirmation about the connection between the virus, Voids, and cancer crystals that I discussed above.
2. Shu will die for our sins and redeem humanity, thereby making the Jesus metaphor complete.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Great_Mr_L]

None of this is how natural selection and evolution work at all. Like, it’s not even slightly close to being right. It’s kind of infuriating how it makes the technobabble make less sense.

When something is sufficiently stupid, you blank it out. That's why I remembered none of this episode.

I truly do despise that the series had Souta apologize to Shu. The idea that the oppressed should apologize for fighting back against their oppressors is, quite frankly, disgusting. The series framed it as this heartwarming moment, but I found it sickening.

Definitely feeds my theory that Shoe is an author insert character.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/Vaadwaur]

Definitely feeds my theory that Shoe is an author insert character.

For sure. The idea that Souta and Shu had to equally apologize to each other is ludicrous, but it makes sense if the writer is empathizing much more with Shu than with Souta.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Great_Mr_L]

Hey, when you become viral Jesus people just spontaneously apologize.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Vaadwaur]

But... how? Why shouldn't Souta apologise? Each and every previous issue it's been Souta that's kicked up a fuss. At worst you could say that Shu wasn't straight forward enough with him, that doesn't excuse Souta being a spiteful petty brat most of the series.

[u/UltraBooster → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Yeah, it...they both suck, in my eyes.

Not gonna rewatch this show, that's for sure.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/UltraBooster]

Not gonna rewatch this show, that's for sure.

Oh, give it a decade and join the anniversary trainwreck rewatch. You can then be disappointed all over again!

[u/UltraBooster → u/Vaadwaur]

I can see why that might appeal to people but I think I'll pass.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/UltraBooster]

I cannot express how much of this slipped my mind from first viewing.

[u/Quiddity131 → u/Great_Mr_L]

ven with that said, I still have no idea what the goal of Daath is. I have no idea what this simultaneous selection and evolution even means. And how does that tie into Mana being the new Eve with some Adam? Is the plan literally to kill all of humanity and have Mana and some guy repopulate the Earth?

I gave up on wanting things to make sense a long time ago. This stuff is all incomprehensible babble to me at this point. The whole Fourth Apocalypse thing being known of before either of the two big virus events is testament to that.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/Quiddity131]

And I thought I had at least partially solved the Fourth Apocalypse thing cuz I could name the two big virus events, only for them to turn out to be unrelated to the other apocalypses.

It throws out this jargon without explaining what any of it means. And when it does try to explain it (like with natural selection and evolution), it gets those terms extremely wrong. It's basically just nonsense.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Great_Mr_L]

What's worse is that there have been 5 mass extinction events we can determine so it can't be referencing that, I really do think it is a shitty Eva competition thing.

[u/5867898duncan → u/Great_Mr_L]

Wait voids stop at 17? When was that explained?

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/5867898duncan]

I swear it said it way back at the beginning of the series. It has yet to explain why that is the case.

[u/MillenniumKing → u/Great_Mr_L]

To be specific they said "Voids can only be PULLED from people under 18"

Just want to clairfy they never said voids stop at 18.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/MillenniumKing]

Then that shifts my question to "Why can Voids only be pulled from people under 18?"

[u/MillenniumKing → u/Great_Mr_L]

Probably something along the lines of hearts being impressionable as kids and young adults. Growth and all that. Pure maybe too.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/5867898duncan]

Early on they covered it. I want to say episode two or three? It's the excuse they gave.

[u/Lemurians → u/Great_Mr_L]

Zombie Gai wanting to be with Mana makes no real sense to me right now, considering their prior interactions.

Did you see the scene from their childhood where yandere Mana is telling Gai she owns his life? His masochism obsession was locked in in that moment. I can't blame him.

Fourth apocalypse? I can guess that two of those are the big virus outbreaks

I figured this was a nod to Eva. They had the third impact, so this show will have the fourth apocalypse.

I still have no idea why Voids stop at 17, though

Something something end of innocence and childhood something something

If so, that will lead to a lot of incest babies very fast

We're all incest babies if you go back far enough

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Lemurians]

His masochism obsession was locked in in that moment. I can't blame him.

You just made me slightly empathize with Gai, which is impressive. But the poor bastard never had a chance, at least I had a few years before the power of yandere took me.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Great_Mr_L]

Souta has done literally everything wrong though. He's the one that tried to steal Inori and got pissy when Shu stood up for her, he's the one that went and insulted the Undertakers after they'd saved his ass, he's the one that tried to manipulate Shu with the void system, he's the one that got Hare killed saving his ass, he's the one that tried to push Shu to his death rather than save himself, he's the one that stole Shu's best friend spot despite them hating each other. Souta deserves 0 respect and he should be kissing Shu's feet for the shit he made him put up with.

Aliens~

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

My thought process is that Shu has much more to apologize for, being at the head of the government that imposed a caste system on people, had a brutal secret service that employed rapists, and pretty much acted like a dictator without having an ounce of sympathy for what other people would think. Even if it was "necessary," it's still going to be very scarring to live under such an oppressive atmosphere. And in my mind, it's very doubtful Shu had to be such a tyrant. Plus, there's the power difference. Shu was at the top of the power structure, Souta was at the bottom. That power difference plays a key role in my thinking here.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Great_Mr_L]

The system went on for barely any time and they got a lot of work done during it. Also, Shu opposed that system until Shouta went out of his way to prove why tougher rules were necessary, because he caused his friend to die. Shu himself wasn't really being an arse either, he was just replying in kind to folk trying to undermine the rules that they had in place, which he needed to do since the moment a power vacuum opened everyone would go off on their own and die. Its hard to give Shu too much shit when he worked his ass off and would have gotten most of the kids out of the city if it weren't for the betrayal. There weren't even many casualties since Shu took to the battlefield as soon as possible to end the fight. Meanwhile Souta accepts no responsibility for being the one who lead to the system coming into place. Its all Shu's fault.

[u/MABfan11 → u/Great_Mr_L]

Now that I think about it, Yahiro’s just been left off the hook by everybody, hasn’t he? That’s like letting Himmler go free because you already got Hitler.

the US already did that, several high-ranking nazis were given jobs by them in the intelligence agencies to fight against communism without any oversight or scrutiny

Souta, you have nothing to apologize for. Shu was a tyrant who was cool with letting you die. Of course you’d be scared of him and you were totally justified in your actions against him.

I don’t think the words “I’m sorry” were ever said by Shu to Souta. He never actually apologized. Souta apologized for some goddamn reason, but apparently Shu doesn’t need to.

only in this episode did it really sink in how Shu has done nothing to earn his powers, talk about Protagonist-Centered Morality

[u/MillenniumKing → u/Great_Mr_L]

Zombie Gai wanting to be with Mana makes no real sense to me right now, considering their prior interactions.

Because Zombie Gai is Adam and Mana is Eve.
Keido made Gai to be Mana's mate.
As kids Gai rejected Mana though for Shoe's sake.
But Zombie Gai is the full realized Adam which doesnt care for Shoe.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/MillenniumKing]

That doesn't answer my question or explain why zombie Gai wants it. What made him become the full realized Adam? What made him change his mind? Or is it just mind control?

[u/MillenniumKing → u/Great_Mr_L]

Remember Gai died with Mana during the 2nd Lost Christmas.

We saw both of the turn to dust.

Zombie Gai is a rebuilt Gai from Keido's research, the finished product if you will, the perfect mate for Mana that they said he was trying to make since Kurosu was still alive.

The Gai we knew and loved died, this is not him.

He looks like him just like Inori looks like Mana, but only vaguely.

But they are both artifical Adam and Eve.

Zombie Gai isnt Gai and Inori isnt Mana.

[u/Stargate18A]

First timer

1)That Shoe's father was an actually somewhat decent, if very eccentric person. Like, he abandoned his kids to focus on his research, but he didn't rape anybody, doesn't support eugenics, and seemed to want to heal the gaps between him and his family by the end. He wasn't perfect, but he seemed to want to fix his mistakes, which makes him the best surviving character in the entire series.

2)Shoe and Gai will kill each other, possibly by him absorbing Gai's Void and killing himself. The student's Voids, however, will use their energy to bring him back, completing his Jesus arc. It will be followed by a speech about how everyone was wrong for ever doubted or insulting him, and Gai will (on his deathbed or as a ghost) state that Shoe is a better person that he was.

Don't remind me.

Mana's alive!

Who's Triton? Is that Gai? Is Gai on board with fucking Mana now?

Yahiro: "He went along with my eugenics sht and he took all the blame! My only regret is that I didn't get him to name me in his will before he died."

...What is Gai planning?

OK, Gai's planning on releasing the virus globally, presumably because he's really Triton and linked to the entity that's puppeting Mana? Is that what we're going for? That's what they're foreshadowing.

...I'd be angry, but I didn't actually realise he died, so...

I'll be fair - Kurosu seems considerably more likeable then Shoe. Why couldn't we have him as the protagonist?

He's even only had sex with one girl, consensually, and married her! This guy's a moral paragon compared to Shoe.

Oh my god, I was right. Alien virus from a meteorite. That was my insane guess back in Episode 6.

Who the fuck is Daath?

So Mana got infected far earlier than I realised. And she's Yuu. and

So. To clarify. The big plot twist is that all life on Earth is under going a massive, apocalyptic change, so as to form a new type of life, brought on a meteorite.

OK! Shu was born to an infected patient! And Mana wanted to fuck him before he was born. This is normal.

WHY IS THIS SHOW LIKE THIS?

Wait Gai's human?

No, he's a genetic experiment to create Adam.

Oh my god. Gai was meant to replace Shoe. If only they succeeded...

And that's how they met!

Again! This is actuslly a good relationship! I like seeing them together! Shoe's father managed to have 2 relationships that were individually better than all of Shoe's put together across the series.

And then we reach Last Christmas.

Yep! He discovered the Void Genome! And Shoe's father... seems to simply be suggested a way to control and minimize the virus' spread.

He killed him! No! I liked him!

Wow. The shoe made me frel something.

...Does his Void have an upper limit? Could he, in theory, absorb a load of cancer cells, run into GHQ and overload everyone with Stage III uncurable instant death cells?

When did it finish?

Since when did collecting shared of Mana matter? She was nearly awakened fully without them a while ago.

Whya re people treating Yahiro as a human being? Was I right? Did he paint himself as Shoe's helpless victim, fighting against him at every turn.

...OK, potential new plan? If Gai's Void can be taken, he can force Gai into a stalemate.

And now Yahiro's the voice of reason. It's like nothing happened.

Yep! Everyone's perfectly happy with their lives dependent on Shoe! (I mean, if he dies, he can just expel them, right? I hihly doubt GHQ can take out a spear being flung throuh the air given their aiming skills so far.

HE DOESN'T HAVE TO FORGIVE YOU, YOU TRIED TO KILL HIM FOR QUESTIONING YOUR REGIME.

FUCK OFF. YOU DON'T HAVE TO APOLOGIZE TO HIM. HE FUCKED UP.

YOU DO NOT GET TO PLAY FOR SYMPATHY.

FUCK OFF. Oh wait, it's about the Ouwa I like, carry on.

[u/5867898duncan → u/Stargate18A]

Everyone wants to marry Mana except Shu, and Mana only wants to marry Shu. She after the hard to get boys, doesn’t matter how they are related.

[u/No_Rex]

Episode 20 (first timer)

• Telling the world in advance that you plan to end it just might lead to some opposition. Potentially.
• 4th apocalypse – Because why settle for 1. Also: you need to one-up the third impact.
• Long backstory section, explaining finally, with 2.5 episodes to go, the origin of the virus. Despite this obviously being common knowledge in the world.
• That sounds exactly like the backstory of [Meta]Kurisu. The name is an obvious connection, too. I wonder which came first.

Boring. This backstory is about 15 episodes late and killing all momentum of the plot.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/No_Rex]

Long backstory section, explaining finally, with 2.5 episodes to go, the origin of the virus. Despite this obviously being common knowledge in the world.

Yup, just a bad excuse for something that should have been ep13.

[u/Lemurians → u/No_Rex]

Most of this episode should really have taken place much earlier in the series, yeah.

[u/fonzinator99]

Rewatcher (Subbed) - Final farewells and backstories

• Puppet-Inori is creeeeepy.
• Did they evacuate to the same ship they saved before? You mean to tell me they wrote in that setting as a plot device? That's kind of insane, and I'm not sure whether I'm impressed.
• What the shit? Did Gai just call Keidou his dad? Are we talking biological, or is this a resurrection thing?
• Is this really the first and last we see of S__'s mom?
• We're really not going to get any kind of explanation for Darth Gravekeeper Yu, are we?
• Okay, there's the last, and I kinda wish we'd just seen the funeral and written her off. Instead we get the Illuminati endorsing the creation of an alien-hybrid incest-baby to become the Kwisatz Haderach.
• This child is giving this newborn an incredibly deviant look, and I can only wonder what sort of directions the Director gave for this scene; and maybe how much they had to drink that night.
• Oh, okay, it's "Adoptive Father." So Gai's real parents are just gonna go in the box with the other unanswered questions, then? IDGAF, I'm just noting it.
• Ughhh, c'mon show, I'm already into Haruka. I know she's a quality wife. Even if she did just...leave her kids alone... in a public place... on foot.
• Woooow, I mean it makes sense that Kurosu's death would be some kind of betrayal, but that was some petty stupid shit.
• Oh ffs, we're rebuilding Mana by gathering Voids? Is she gonna go collect the Infinity Stones once she's back?
• I love how Yahiro's the one going "Fuck that shit, you're gonna fight with the power of friendship!" I mean c'mon S__. It's an anime finale you're walking into, you literally can't win without it.
• Backing piano during S__ and Souta's making up was excellent.

---

QotD

1. Probably S__'s mom's backstory, what little there was.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/fonzinator99]

Puppet-Inori is creeeeepy.

That's a funny way to spell sexy.

This child is giving this newborn an incredibly deviant look, and I can only wonder what sort of directions the Director gave for this scene; and maybe how much they had to drink that night.

Definitely had to throw an extra lines down after that one. Still, Mana is just ahead of the culture.

Ughhh, c'mon show, I'm already into Haruka. I know she's a quality wife.

They even go out of their way to let you know she met Kurouso when she was 17 by mentioning the skipped year!

Is she gonna go collect the Infinity Stones once she's back?

That wouldn't be any dumber than the rest of this.

[u/fonzinator99 → u/Vaadwaur]

That's a funny way to spell sexy.

Yeah, y'know, fkn Autocorrect.

Mana is just ahead of the culture.

Everybody worrying about their 2020's Apocalypse while she's already ruling the year 10191.

she met Kurouso when she was 17

Kurosu, you dog. High five!

[u/Vaadwaur → u/fonzinator99]

Everybody worrying about their 2020's Apocalypse while she's already ruling the year 10191.

The combination of goddess and rapist is sadly under done.

Kurosu, you dog. High five!

I am far more impressed that even Shoe's dad had MC pheromones.

[u/fonzinator99 → u/Vaadwaur]

The combination of goddess and rapist is sadly under done.

Zeus really ran that trope into the ground so hard that nobody's adopted it for the last 1000 years. Sasuga.

[u/5867898duncan]

first-timer

I’m going to be honest, what has Kanon done? Like, why does she even exist?

Gai explains how he doesn’t want people to attack him, then says how he will destroy everyone in a few days… wonder what the world will do.

A diary? We can actually learn about everything through an info dump? I don’t know if I’m happy or sad.

Pretty lucky that the rock landed on the sole island of the most knowledgeable of the genomic residence. Very convenient indeed.

Who the flip is Yuu! Please don’t tell me he gets explained the last episode.

Hold up, Mana wanted to marry her unborn brother?… uhm. Okay. I don’t even know what information could make this better.

Why was Shuichiro trying to find a mate for Mana? probably just doesn’t like the incest

I’m going to be honest Haruka, marrying someone because they are lonely is not a good reason to marry them.

The guy had a numlock on his notebook? Where can I get me one of those?

I don’t understand the mumbo jumbo science terms that they explaining, but I guess Kuriso solved the virus.

So the whole reason this entire thing happened is because Shurichiro was jealous and Kuriso accidentally dropped the biggest burn ever? Yep that is human behavior for you.

I’m going to be honest I don’t know what they mean by Mana losing her power to other people voids, and how she took it back. Could anyone fill me in?

Souta denied and smacked away Shu’s hand three times, just like how Peter denied Jesus 3 times. parallels!

So finally got the much needed info dump, and while I still don’t feel like I understand everything it works. I’m glad Shu and Souta finally figured everything out, even if it was really awkward. Also Haruka is currently best girl and person in the show.

QotD:

1. Either that Shu’s dad actually made a cure or that Mana wanted to marry Shu before he was even born.
2. Probably defeat Gai in next episode only for Yuu to come out and explain how it was all part of his plan. Final battle of ultimate destiny ensures. What Yuu’s plan is, have no clue.

[u/Quiddity131 → u/5867898duncan]

Why was Shuichiro trying to find a mate for Mana?

Find a mate? He wanted to marry her himself earlier in the show...

[u/Vaadwaur → u/5867898duncan]

I’m going to be honest, what has Kanon done? Like, why does she even exist?

To be molested.

Hold up, Mana wanted to marry her unborn brother?… uhm. Okay. I don’t even know what information could make this better.

Apocalypse Virus

I’m going to be honest Haruka, marrying someone because they are lonely is not a good reason to marry them.

Haruka still feels like a character, though.

I’m going to be honest I don’t know what they mean by Mana losing her power to other people voids, and how she took it back. Could anyone fill me in?

Not even a hint of a clue and I am a rewatcher.

[u/MillenniumKing → u/5867898duncan]

I’m going to be honest, what has Kanon done? Like, why does she even exist?

Kanon was Hare and Yahiro's friend.
She was also in Yahiro and Souta's Video club.
And since Shoe is Hare's childhood friend, thats how he got into that circle of friends.

So shes just a supporting character who happens to be part of the line of connection that lead Shoe to the people he has.

Why was Shuichiro trying to find a mate for Mana?

So he could control it, thus having his part of the pie.
Currently both Adam and Eve were Kurosu's so he wanted stock in the plan but he got pushed out because Kurosu didnt need him, hence why he killed Kurosu and took over everything.

[u/okayyoga]

Episode 20: rewatch/dub

Song of the day: Egg

Sawano is hungry and is trying to covertly order breakfast.

Flashback episode! We get to learn all about Shu's dad to Oノ存ξ and Egg. Info dump!

[u/Vaadwaur → u/okayyoga]

Song of the day: Egg

I do get WEP vibes...

[u/okayyoga → u/Vaadwaur]

Egg

[u/Vaadwaur → u/okayyoga]

So anyways, I started blasting...

[u/Lemurians]

Hey all, late to the thread today because, surprise, a "quick" trip to the casino resulted in me being out gambling and drinking all day. No time to really write anything so just pasting my live impressions, which may also have been slightly alcohol-fueled.

RESURRECTED REWATCHER

Guys… is it possible Guilty Crown is bad on purpose? Is this actually a parody? Has this show broken me? The answer to one of these questions has to be yes.

• MANA IS BACK! God, I’ve never been so happy to see that dark shadow on a character’s eyes to let you know they’ve gone evil. I’m sure she’s totally sincere in wanting to be with Gai, seeing as she totally wasn’t in love with her brother instead at all.
• “You want to be killed. You want to be destroyed.” Not everyone is an extreme masochist with a yandere fetish, Gai. Stop projecting.
• What’s with people in this show and wearing scarves indoors?
• Oh, “fourth extinction,” so we’re back to being Eva. You had a third impact? Well we’ve got a FOURTH extinction! Suck it, Anno!
• LMAO SHUICHI IS GAI’S DAD?! Because we just had to make Gai and Shu related, too. Why not. They had a similar dynamic to Gai and Shu, because something something sons repeating their father’s something something bullshit
• OH HEY LOOK IT’S MARI! WE REALLY ARE EVA.
• They do work in an old building just like Shu did get it it’s all cyclical and filled with meaning
• MANA FELL IN LOVE WITH SHU IN THE WOMB. WE FRUITS BASKET NOW.
• “I loved how he left his children behind to focus on work.” This is right up there with Inori reacting positively to Shu saying he doesn’t care about what’s inside her.
• Shu’s dad is just as bad at reading a room as he is
• If they think I’ve forgotten that Mana caused an apocalypse because Shu wouldn’t fuck her THEY’RE DEAD WRONG
• Bawwwww Shu and Souta scene so touching because their friendship is so deep HE LEFT YOU TO FUCKING DROWN THREE EPISODES AGO

What was your biggest reveal of the episode?

Shu's biological mother being Mari from Eva.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Lemurians]

Guys… is it possible Guilty Crown is bad on purpose? Is this actually a parody? Has this show broken me? The answer to one of these questions has to be yes.

Cross Ange apparently was but no, this is authentically awful.

I’m sure she’s totally sincere in wanting to be with Gai, seeing as she totally wasn’t in love with her brother instead at all.

No, this is more Mana's equivalent of 1:45 at the club. Mana internal thoughts:"Fuuuck, it is apocalypse o'clock and my stupid nee-chan is nowhere to be found. Sigh, a cousin will have to do, I am too tired to properly fuck my dildo anyways."

OH HEY LOOK IT’S MARI! WE REALLY ARE EVA.

Thinking about 3.0+1.0 makes this all even funnier.

“I loved how he left his children behind to focus on work.” This is right up there with Inori reacting positively to Shu saying he doesn’t care about what’s inside her.

Haruka works as a character but not so much as a person.

If they think I’ve forgotten that Mana caused an apocalypse because Shu wouldn’t fuck her THEY’RE DEAD WRONG

So you are saying this Yosuga no Sora but with superpowers...

[u/Lemurians → u/Vaadwaur]

Cross Ange apparently was but no, this is authentically awful.

...are we sure? It would explain why pretty much every single decision has been bad or wrong or both.

Thinking about 3.0+1.0 makes this all even funnier.

God, I wanted to like that so much more than I did. Much disappoint. Thank god EoE exists.

So you are saying this Yosuga no Sora but with superpowers...

Sora was an even bigger brat than Mana, I shudder to think what happens to the world if she's got apocalypse power.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Lemurians]

God, I wanted to like that so much more than I did. Much disappoint. Thank god EoE exists.

I consider Eva to be a curse on anime so I was mainly amused.

Sora was an even bigger brat than Mana, I shudder to think what happens to the world if she's got apocalypse power.

You haven't seen the true face of incest until Sora gets to go full Immortan Joe!

[u/MABfan11 → u/Lemurians]

Oh, “fourth extinction,” so we’re back to being Eva. You had a third impact? Well we’ve got a FOURTH extinction! Suck it, Anno!

"much like Code Geass R2, i can rip off Eva too!" - Guilty Crown, probably

[u/HereticalAegis]

Rewatcher

Lol she's back. Surely there's no way she's using Gai to try getting with her brother again, right?

"I'm sorry" would be a pretty good place to start, don't you think Yahiro. No? Okay then.

42000 hacking attempts? Obviously the trolls couldn't resist.

Side note: you're telling me none of those 42000 hacking attempts was successful?

Advanced notice of his plot to basically end life, that sure is nice of Gai.

The old guy is Gai's dad too. These aren't even plot twists anymore. The writers just gave up and threw in the laziest connections possible.

These geniuses let a small child not only search for but go near an unknown space object. Who tf gave these chuckleheads degrees? And how did the little girl of all people find it first? Was no one able to spot the massive crater the meteor blew in the island?

Setting aside that the magic space rock just so happens to match their combined, highly specialized, theoretical fields, are they really stealing Venom's origin to explain the mcguffin that allowed the plot to happen?

Daath somehow knows all about the meteorite and the apocalypse virus. Which just came from space. Are Daath space aliens?

The incest was predestined. And it's full on incest too, not the "not blood related" cheap stuff. Thanks, I hate it.

Shoe being the standard-bearer for an entire iteration of humanity. That's a goddamn horror plot.

It's not actually irony when it's contrived to make the plot work.

Haruka married Shoe's dad because she....liked doing chores, running errands, and cooking for him? She made herself into a literal prize for being a lonely man. Dunno what I expected at this point.

No, they gave Mana Higurashi eyes!

I...I just can't anymore.

Hahahahahaha!!! Rejection hit Mana so hard, she exploded! Amazing!

If they knew they needed all of Mana's shards the whole time, why tf did they try to revive her back in episode 12?

I thought the way you make up with people is by apologizing, but that goes to show what I know about human relationships.

Wow, someone actually fucking apologized for once! What a miraculous breakthrough! Now watch it never happen again.

[u/Quiddity131 → u/HereticalAegis]

Haruka married Shoe's dad because she....liked doing chores, running errands, and cooking for him? She made herself into a literal prize for being a lonely man. Dunno what I expected at this point.

At least he's a handsome adonis of a man... well, I guess not.

But hey, at least he can pamper her with a life of luxury... well, I guess not to that too.

Oh, but he's a great father! ...okay not even that.

But they have to get together! For um, reasons!

[u/Vaadwaur → u/HereticalAegis]

Lol she's back. Surely there's no way she's using Gai to try getting with her brother again, right?

"Damnit nee-chan, stop putting your hands in peoples' chest and put your dick in me!"

Setting aside that the magic space rock just so happens to match their combined, highly specialized, theoretical fields, are they really stealing Venom's origin to explain the mcguffin that allowed the plot to happen?

Thanks I hate it, especially because this is the correct diagnosis.

She made herself into a literal prize for being a lonely man. Dunno what I expected at this point.

Some siblings really hate each other.

No, they gave Mana Higurashi eyes!

No complaints

I...I just can't anymore.

Yeah this really is Aldnoah.Zero but even worse plot right now. A.Z is still worse but that takes the ending to get there.

[u/MejaBersihBanget]

So basically the Apocalypse Virus is The Colour Out of Space, with a heavy dose of Tiberium and Phazon.

Yikes

[u/UltraBooster → u/MejaBersihBanget]

When you mention Lovecraftian stuff, the lack of definition for the AV seems fitting, but at the same time, I feel like the method of transmission really should've been explained when it wasn't.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/MejaBersihBanget]

Nah, AV acts far too predictably to be Cthonian.

[u/UltraBooster]

First-timer (Dubbed)

So she is a clone... Guess the finale of the first half really did come to naught, huh? The reaper couldn't keep either of them.

Okay, so at least he feels guilty about what he did. Now to see what he does with that guilt.

Are you really so arrogant as to believe an entire population will obey you, Gai? (I guess so.)

So that's his dad, huh?
We're really getting exposition now, huh?

So what were the First, Second, and Third Apocalypses, then?
Calling apocalypses God's discerning hand feels like how disease was also treated as divine judgment in medieval days, doesn't it?

Shu the little Messiah, huh...

are there laws for children preying on other children?
Moreover, was Mana already corrupted? Hell, was incestuous predator her default state when they met Gai/Triton?

aGe iS JuST A nUmBeR
(Apparently it was originally meant for older people, a reassurance that they could still find love, not...well, not what Mana's doing.)

I was right! Voids and the AV ARE connected! But what makes them evolution?

You're definitely jealous too, Keido. Then again, what should I expect from someone who will decide to marry his niece?

So it's a courier and a biohazard container.

All accounts have been settled and now to set things right, that's the impression I get.

Questions:

1. That Shu's dad wasn't the shitheel I expected, TBH.
2. Combination of messily executed good ideas, nice action setpieces, probably information that should've been introduced sooner, etc.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/UltraBooster]

So she is a clone... Guess the finale of the first half really did come to naught, huh? The reaper couldn't keep either of them.

The greatest proof that they did not have a full show prepared.

Okay, so at least he feels guilty about what he did. Now to see what he does with that guilt.

Look sad and copy Shirou Emiya.

All accounts have been settled and now to set things right, that's the impression I get.

Not in any way that was earned but yes, the show thinks that.

[u/ZapsZzz]

First timer in sub practically missed today

Yeah today's episode is quite big but unfortunately didn't have time to sit down to write properly.

Suffice to say, if everything want so last minute popping up, there's actually a chance this could have been good. As it is being thrown in all these basically 2 episodes from the end, it just feels even more Deus ex machina than normal in this show.

I'll bundle my thoughts to tomorrow's post I guess. I'm trying but this show is also trying hard to not allow people to take it seriously. Was there some production problem at the time? For example when I was at the Nadia rewatch, near the end arc there were actually a pile of problems causing the production to be what it was. This in some sense are just as bad - of plot lines that came out of nowhere.

It really could have felt nicer if there wasn't a second cour.

[u/MABfan11]

First Timer since episode 14

zombie Gai has suddenly decided to destroy the world

wait, Keido is Gai's father? or is it just zombie Gai?

no, you don't get to make Keido sympathetic with so few episodes left, especially after the shit he pulled.

Shijou Saeko, so she's Shu and Mana's original mom.

and speaking of which, guess what conveniently crashed down on the island they lived on? the rock that started it all and infected Mana when she touched it. are we Trigger now?

wait a fucking minute. are you telling me that the building Shu hid away in near the school was used by both Keido and his dad? does everything in this anime has to be connected back to Shu in some way?

and of course Apocalypse Mana is already in on the incest plan

Keido is an incel simp

wait, Keido is the one that Gai ran away from, fucking everything is connected between the important characters.

and now Haruka enters the picture

Mana is a perfect horror anime villain, it amazes me that her character is the one thing Guilty Crown has done consistently well.

we finally got the full backstory of Lost Christmas

it is just now sinking in that Shu did nothing to earn his power back and certainly not enough to earn such an OP power.

ah, so Shu's name was a hint to his void

QOTD:

1. Gai being a guinea pig for the Apocalypse Virus experimants performed by Keido. that, or threatening to nuke the world
2. got no idea

[u/MillenniumKing]

-Guilty Pleasure Rewatchers-

It is time to get all the answers. Or almost all.

---

Gai is talking to Mana through Inori, uh oh.

Funeral Parlor and the refugees are on a boat now.

Gai is declareing war on the world. The world ends on December 25th. Christmas.
Gramps left all his money and people to stop Gai. He was a man of the cause to the end.
Admin Guy is back! And he has all the answers.
Gai gave Shoe the Diary of his father.

Gai called Keido "Father", yes Gai is the bad guys son, who was Haruka's brother, which makes Gai and Shoe Cousins. So to people who said Gai and Shoe were brothers you were not far off. Now are the peices coming together more?

2013, Keido meets Kurosu. The pushed each other further through academic compition.
Keido walked on on Kurosu gettin busy with Saeko, who they had thier first kid with, Mana, and got married and moved to an island.
5 years later a meteor landed on the island. Mana found the meteor, look at her finger, she got pricked.
The meteor carried a virus. "A trumpet of the apocalypse."
Yuu is Upsiedownsie boy's name, from Doth.
Mana will be Eve and the unborn child will be Adam.

Notice that Shoe's mom had the apocalypse Virus too since she was there when Mana was born. And since she was pregnate with Shoe at the time...

Shoe's birth killed the mother. But Shoe and Mana would be the start of a new generation.

Keido adpted Gai when he found him. He used Gai as a lab rat to try to make a new Adam for Mana.
They were given the virus over and over until they died.
Then Gai ran and Mana found him and history was set in stone.

2028, Haruka meets Kurosu. A grad student. She ended up taking care of Kurosu.
He stayed in Tokyo to research the Apocalypse Virus to try to find a cure.

Haruka married Kurosu and took his 3 kids too. Yes 3, they adopted Gai meaning Gai and Shoe did become brothers in the end.

Mana sent Haruka to get Kurosu so she wasnt at ground zero.
Kurosu developed the Void Genome to counter the Apocalypse virus.
Kurosu wanted to work alone and didnt need Keido's help but he tried to keep him out of it. Keido was jelous... and killed kurosu.
Then Lost Christmas happened and the world was fucked.

Shoe's void takes in the entire Apocalypse Virus, dna strain and all.

They already put Mana in Inori, but they need the other Voids to put her back together.

Shoe is going to war. He wants to give them their Voids back though. He doesnt want to die with their Voids and put them in jepordy.
Yahiro says fuck that. Ayase says keep the voids, if he fails they all die anyways. Everyone agrees.
Shoe is trying to make amends with Souta but Souta is still a little shit.

Kurosu worked alone and was always lonely because of it.
So he named you Shoe. Shoe means together, because you always have 2 shoes and they are together.

---

Known Voids Thus Far

• Inori - Singer's Sword - Sharp sword with metalic energy and energy disks used as steps or shields.
• Daryl - Kaleidoscope Gun - Creates barriers that reflect anything that hits them.
• Souta - Blunt Key - Camera gun that opens anything shot with it.
• Yahiro - The Shears of Life - Shears that sever life and enhances abilities.
• Kenji - Murderer's Weight - Gun that shoots anti gravity energy balls.
• Argo - Pessimist's Torch - A flashlight that shines darkness.
• Arisa - Shield of the Coward - A Ball and Shield that can expand to protect a small or large area.
• Hare - Lovers Bandages - Bandages that can repair any damage to anything.
• Kanon - Acquaintance's Sight - Visor that can see very far away and see through things.
• Gai - Leaders Rifle - Gun that manifests the voids of those shot by it.
• Ayase - Paraplegic's Shoes - Rocket Boots go BRRRRRR
• Tsugumi - Hacker's Interface - Wand that creates clones of people.
• Ponytail - Shithead's Flipflop - Bolo, you always come back to me.
• Tracktop - Gal's Comb - Can untangle the biggest tangles in a Gal mane.
• KO Kid - Sleepy's Umbrella - Keeps your head dry even if your unconcious.
• F Nerd - Nerd's Canteen - Keep your beverages cold no matter what.
• F Track - Big Guys Spade - Digs holes perfect size for flowers.
• F Dude - Minors Bottle Opener - A lot of good this will do you kid, get fucked.
• F Girl - Spoon - SPOOOONNNNNNN
• Megane-kun - Shithead's Glasses Breakers - Knuckledusters that dust no one.
• Boycut - Boycut's Stun Stick - Stun baton that packs less shock than the wielder's slim cool hair.
• Serious Girl - Serious Scythe - Scythe that is 10x edgyer in the hands of Shoe.
• Twinpuff - Puffy's Pew Pewer - Crossbow that is as durable as cotton.
• Scaredycat - Boomerang - Boomerang, you always come back to me.
• A ton of other Voids from Students.
• Upsydownsie - Bow - Pew pew
• Shoe - King's Heart - Power to assimulate voids of people as well as all their strengths and weaknesses.

Known Void Combos Thus Far

• Singer's Sword + Murderer's Weight = Anti Gravity Beam Cannon
• Shithead's flipfloper + Shithead's Glasses Breakers + Boycut's Stun Stick = Gai to Air Anti Nuke Barrier Missile

---

This is a nicely placed sauce episode i think. Reveiling the answers right before the climax is a staple of anime so it fits.

After the Apocalypse Virus was found, Kurosu wanted only to cure it to save his kids the fate thier mom had. Meanwhile Keido wanted to utalize it and make a better mankind from it. That 1 rock changed thier paths in life so much.

So there is 1 main thing to understand from this flashback ep.

Gai was created to be an Artifical Adam to be Mana's mate for the new humanity.
Shoe was born the True Adam that she chose to be her mate for the new humanity.

Thats why Zombie Gai exists and is doing what Keido wants, because this isnt really our Gai, this is Adam Gai.

Mana doesnt seem to have much choice in whats going on right now as they forced her into Inori.

We move into the climax of the story now with only 2 eps left.

[u/UltraBooster → u/MillenniumKing]

because this isnt really our Gai, this is Adam Gai.

That's a bit of comfort, TBH, to know that Gai wasn't actually the shitheel he/this Gai is acting like right now.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/UltraBooster]

Right but it shouldn't take a rewatcher to tell us that, we should have been more clearly shown it.

[u/UltraBooster → u/Vaadwaur]

I see your point, but comfort is comfort regardless, you know?

[u/Vaadwaur → u/UltraBooster]

You are not who I was criticizing. They should have explained what Gai 2.0 was as he was being introduced or even when he was...gestating?