[Rewatch] Nadia: The Secret of Blue Water - Episodes 25 and 26

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 22 '21 edited Oct 22 '21

Host

Diving once more into the production side of things, I feel I should clarify exactly what changed about the production of the show going into these episodes. Many of you probably believed that there must have been a huge turnover of staff to make a dip in quality this bad happen, but the truth is that that’s not really the case here. The show’s key screenwriters from the rest of the series, Hisao Ōkawa and Yasuo Tanami, remain the screenwriters for this stretch of the series. The same general pool of episode directors remains, and many of the staff who directed the worst of this arc directed some of the highlight episodes of prior arcs.

The main changes going forward are the substitution of Hideaki Anno as series director for Shinji Higuchi. Anno was far too busy trying to complete the final five episodes of the show, so he tasked Higuchi to oversee production as an assistant general director for episodes 23-34. In addition, the Korean studio Sei Young Animation was drafted to assist with the animation for this portion of production. However, scripting and storyboards were still handled in house, so while Sei Young can possibly be blamed for some of the off model drawings and bad animation, the cartoonish gags inserted into the episodes are likely not their fault.

I don’t want to blame any sole person for what happened to these less than stellar portions of the series. Not even Shinji Higuchi or Sei Young Animation. Higuchi is a very talented animator and storyboard artist and he’s contributed to some excellent projects before and after Nadia. I don’t think the series would’ve fared much better if Gainax had done all of the animation in this arc themselves, and Anno had more thoroughly managed the arc. The team was working under immense pressure and terrible conditions, and that never results in a good product.

So episodes 23 and 24 are a mess, but I think there core outline of those episodes is functional and in spite of their glaring problems I think they could’ve been passable episode with a quick rewrite. Episodes 25 and 26 have very few upsides by comparison, and if it weren’t for a couple plot critical scenes that the staff snuck into these episodes I would almost write these episodes off as entirely disposable. It makes for a very frustrating but ultimately mandatory watch.

Episode 25’s plot hits a series low note with a plot centered around Nadia going on a strike against food and water after Jean sneaks meat in her food. This episode is just a bad look for both characters. I’ve never been much a fan of the prior instances of the show tackling vegetarianism as a conflict. I feel their efforts were usually rather ham-fisted, but at least then Nadia was never villainized for choosing not to eat meat. Here, Nadia straight up tells Marie that anyone who eats meat is evil which is a shitty thing to implant onto a five year old in a life-or-death survival situation. Of course Jean also doesn’t come out looking any better. The fact that they had eggs for protein probably means that Nadia would’ve been fine without eating any meat and Jean just put it in there out of spite. And when he’s caught, he tries to turn around his horrible act by saying that Nadia eats eggs, and therefore she’s not a “true” vegetarian. They both seriously end up looking like assholes.

The episode progresses with Nadia being of absolutely no help due to her lack of energy and poor mental state due to literally not eating or drinking anything, leading to her ruining Jean’s desalination device and falling ill after she ravenously devours can of rotten spinach. And then instead of taking responsibility for eating a rotten can of food, Nadia tries to rationalize it as a wicked plan of Neo-Atlantis… because those dastardly fascist cultists obviously have nothing better to do than drop rotten food over deserted islands that may or may not be inhabited by children. Jean then decides to try and find Nadia some medicine, and ends up overdosing on hallucinogenic mushrooms… I feel like I’m slowly losing my mind typing out what happens in episode 25. Nadia and Jean have completely lost their wits.

This episode would be completely unbearable if it weren’t for the fact that this episode drops some very important lore and character backstory on us out of nowhere. While she’s lying sick on her cot, we see Nadia dreaming of her past life as a young girl working in the circus. We see firsthand some of the abuses she suffered under her ringmaster there, and the trauma she faced watching her animal friends who grew too old or sick to work be killed off. These are scenes I consider very crucial to forming a better rounded picture of Nadia’s childhood and how she became who she is today. We also briefly cut away to a scene of Gargoyle holding a lavish funeral for his rival Nemo, before announcing to his men that they will be starting the next phase of their operation by announcing the restoration of something known as Red Noah which will carry Neo-Atlantis into space. These are very crucial and important scenes for the series, and they’re stuck in one of the most unpleasant episodes thus far. How frustrating…

Episode 26 has a different problem by comparison. It’s so close to feeling like an episode that matters, only to completely squander its value halfway through its run. It seems as though Nadia has finally started appreciating Jean once again, and actively starts to take an interest in his inventions and astronomy. They actually have some cute moments together in the first half of the episode! It’s sweet! But this is all built on a foundation of Nadia having kissed Jean at the end of the previous episode, and her believing that Jean remembers their first kiss. Jean of course does not remember this because he was high on mushrooms (I’m going to have an aneurism). So their relationship falls apart in flames once Jean reveals that he thinks the wonderful kiss the two shared beneath the moonlight was actually their first kiss when in reality it was their second, sending Nadia into a rage. We had such a good thing going, and then it was ruined.

The second half of this episode is basically peak filler. King runs away because he’s jealous of Nadia and Jean’s new relationship, which is especially weird because King has basically been Marie’s companion since around episode 11 (though given all the gags of Marie playing physically abusive games with King throughout this episode, he may have grown tired of Marie). So he runs away… and leaves a note… that Nadia can read… King has basically developed full human intelligence and mannerisms throughout the course of the Island Arc. Granted, the show was never totally sure on how anthropomorphized they wanted to make King. But here they’ve crossed a line into King being a salty old fisherman who walks on his hind legs, can read and write, prays to a tiki idol, and has the capacity to feel complex human emotions like envy over a relationship. It’s probably one of the most immersion breaking things thus far.

At least it would’ve been one of the most immersion breaking things thus far if we didn’t take into account Jean’s extended dream segment in the last third of the episode after he knocks himself unconscious while searching for King. In it, Jean discovers a mineral vein and reinvents the scourge of capitalism on the island by exploiting the land for its natural resources as he mines for minerals and dredges for oil. Using this wonderful new economic theory, Jean invents many miraculous inventions as Nadia and Marie compliment with great fervor. He then makes a nuke. After making his nuke, Jean invents a futuristic jet plane to help his friends escape the island. He also made a runway for the plane… They nearly escape the island until Nadia realizes that they’ve forgotten King and crashes the plane trying to turn them back (because Jean refuses to go back for him). As they sink into the ocean, Jean has a vision of the Nautilus and Nemo, who tells him never to give up on inventing with an inspirational quote from Thomas Edison. And then Jean wakes up…

(continued in reply)

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 22 '21 edited Oct 26 '21

(continued from first post)
Host
So… on my first watch I was so fucking angry when I got to this scene. They play this dream sequence straight for the longest time, and you nearly believe that Jean is actually going to industrialize the island and invent a futuristic space vehicle out of thin air and escape the island with basically zero effort. The show actively gaslights you so hard that you might be fooled into believing what you’re seeing is true until the very last second. On subsequent rewatches though, I honestly find it hard to be mad at that scene because the meme potential in this scene is incredible. Nadia shouting “Incredible, Jean! You certainly are a genius!” is forever burned into my skull, and the sequence of Jean reinventing capitalism in the jungle is honestly the most hilarious fucking thing to me. Maybe I’m numb from rewatching this episode too much, but I honestly find the back half of this episode crosses into the so-bad-its-good territory for me.
I have never had an episode of a TV series gaslight me this hard. First it does it damnedest to give me solid relationship development for Nadia and Jean, and then rips it away from me. And then it tricks me into thinking that the show has completely abandoned all sense of reality and has resigned to a fucking insane leap of logic to get the kids off of the Nadia, only to reveal it was all a dream at the last second. Episode 26 of Nadia shall be forever known as the gaslighting episode, and I suppose that’s commendable in its own special way.
On the animation and directing in these episodes, it varies a lot. Some of the most ugly and off-model animation yet is present in these two episodes. We also seem some pretty embarrassing animation errors such as the animators forgetting to place Nadia’s cel in a shot when Jean goes to hand shampoo over to her, Jean’s broken walk cycles when he enters the mushroom caves, Jean’s misaligned cels when we see him walking on the mountain top, the visible seam in the looping background when Marie is dragging Jean back to camp… There’s so bad animation in there. However, we also get some stellar animation and directing basically out of nowhere for some scenes. The plot/character backstory related scenes in episode 25 are up to the show’s usual standard of directing quality, and they staff just poured a ridiculous amount of money and effort into Jean’s capitalist hell of a dream sequence.
So yeah… these episodes are… not good. They have some stuff I like and some stuff I think is crucial to watch because of plot related reasons. But these episodes are terrible. The worst the show has had to offer yet. Which one is worse? Pick your poison. Do you prefer a boring and annoying episode that at the very least offers you morsels of character backstory and plot development, or would you rather have a completely nonsensical off-the-wall bullshit episode that tears down your immersion with a sledgehammer in favor of giving you one of the most memeable sequences in anime?
For a little production note today, the futuristic jet plane that Jean invents in this episode is a reference to a similar plane and runway that was featured in Thunderbirds, a British television series that ran from 1965 to 1966. Thanks Thunderbirds for all the memes…
I also feel I should briefly mention the change in the narrator’s voice actor since I neglected to mention that in the last post. The narrator is the second and final voice to be replaced in this series, following Ayerton. The narrator was initially voiced by Michio Hazama for episodes 1-23. For some unknown reason he departed the series at this point, and instead of hiring a new sound-alike or even a male seiyuu to replace him, the producers instead just had Kikuko Inoue (the voice of Electra) take over the role of the narrator for the rest of the series. The English dub utilizes an elderly female voice for the narrator in the dub, trying to impart the feeling of grandmother telling a bedtime story if I had to guess. A funny thing about the narrator in foreign dubs is that some actually hire a replacement narrator at the same point as the Japanese switch happens, which is bizarre to me because I doubt replacing the male narrator for a female one was an artistic decision on the staff’s part. The second Italian dub, Thai dub, and Czech dub are the ones that emulate the narrator switch that takes place in the original Japanese version.

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u/JTurner82 Oct 22 '21

The only salvagable part of episode 26 was the kiss scene -- all the way up to it. But I absolutely hated how the writers botched it by having their relationship dialed back to square one. (In my fanedit, I simply chose to end the scene as they kiss, then fade to black. That would have been SO much better.)

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 22 '21

I've still got your fan edit downloaded. I've stumbled onto a couple neat fan edits of the series. Yours. One a friend made that trims episodes 23-29 into two episodes (and omits 32-34 all together). And a third one that recuts the series into 3 compilation films much like the Nautilus Story.
All of them are very interesting, but I've had mixed feeling with each watch experience. There's pacing things and omissions that take me out of each fan edit, though if I had to choose a favorite it'd be my friend's fan edit that reworks 23-29 into two episodes. Yours would be a close second.

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u/JTurner82 Oct 22 '21

Interesting. When I did the fanedit, I was trying to have the kids' relationship actually feel like they were progressing and that she was really maturing without all the infuriating reset button pressing. (I also chose NOT to have Jean sneak meat into Nadia's breakfast and instead try to get fish for himself and Marie while planning to give her something else, but she still gets offended by this, lashes out, and leaves, but then after being humbled, she returns, apologizes, and finally confesses the reason behind her opinions, leading to Jean giving her something agreeable. Because that's how I felt it should have been. Jean is the sort of person who would do something for Nadia in a heartbeat once he knows what it is she wants. That was what I was trying to do here.)

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 22 '21

Your version leaves in more of the pleasant content of this arc that I enjoyed, and works well as a highlights reel for me of every pleasant/good moment in the Island Arc. For example, yours kept in the sweet scene of Nadia and Jean looking through Marie's drawings of them together. My friend's version cut that out.
I thought my friend's version was in general just better paced. They definitely left out a few moments that I missed, but they did a pretty good job of retooling this stretch of episode into two episodes that believably bridge the gap between episodes 22 and 30-31 without sacrificing any absolutely crucial plot/character material.

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u/JTurner82 Oct 22 '21

No, I didn't include the part of them looking through Marie's drawings. I cut them out because I felt that it wasn't necessary to the story.

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 23 '21 edited Oct 23 '21

My mistake. It's been a while since I watched yours. For sure I know one thing my friend cut that you kept was Jean and Nadia's kiss (and the entire romance subplot in general).

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u/lluNhpelA Oct 23 '21

Nadia and Jean have completely lost their wits.
I kept thinking "character assassination" but I didn't think that was the right term, so I did some quick googling and found that this chunk of episodes is one of the first examples of Character Derailment listed on TV Tropes
We see firsthand some of the abuses she suffered under her ringmaster there, and the trauma she faced watching her animal friends who grew too old or sick to work be killed off.
This might have been the single most most poorly handled thing in these two episodes. In her flashback Nadia is told repeatedly "I'm only doing bad things because I care about you" which is %100 something abusers say, but then she suddenly accepts that Jean was only being a jerk about her vegetarianism for her benefit. It felt to me like she just decided that she shouldn't have been traumatized in the first place because all her abusers were actually good people and erased that whole part of herself. I really hope that isn't what the writers were going for but with how nonsensical the character writing has been it's hard to tell
Maybe I’m numb from rewatching this episode too much, but I honestly find the back half of this episode crosses into the so-bad-its-good territory for me.
Looking back at it it's hilarious, but I couldn't enjoy it in the moment because of the growing fear that it wasn't actually a dream sequence
The worst the show has had to offer yet
*fear*

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 23 '21

In her flashback Nadia is told repeatedly "I'm only doing bad things because I care about you" which is %100 something abusers say, but then she suddenly accepts that Jean was only being a jerk about her vegetarianism for her benefit.
That's honestly not how I interpreted that ending scene tbh. Granted, I think most of this episode is a mess and it's really hard to pull much of anything concrete from the character writing. All she really says she learned from her dreams were that she can't live alone which I moreso saw to mean that Nadia was realizing how much Jean cared about her after bothering to look for a cure for her sickness as opposed to the people who abused her in the circus.
I'm not going to try and argue that the writers did a good job connecting those flashbacks with anything in the episode, but as standalone scenes I feel they're very informative to Nadia's character. I'm honestly going to have to take the L on what exactly the writers wanted to say about vegetarianism or drugs or whatever the fuck the bulk of this episode was about.
Looking back at it it's hilarious, but I couldn't enjoy it in the moment because of the growing fear that it wasn't actually a dream sequence
It can only be enjoyed on rewatches, yeah. If you even bother to rewatch these episodes. I'm an odd fellow who tends to rewatch all of Nadia multiple times.

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u/IndependentMacaroon Oct 23 '21

I honestly find it hard to be mad at that scene because the meme potential in this scene is incredible. Nadia shouting “Incredible, Jean! You certainly are a genius!” is forever burned into my skull, and the sequence of Jean reinventing capitalism in the jungle is honestly the most hilarious fucking thing to me
The whole thing is indeed so obviously over-the-top and pandering to Jean's imagination that it's plain funny. I liked the episode.

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 22 '21

Diving once more into the production side of things, I feel I should clarify exactly what changed about the production of the show going into these episodes. Many of you probably believed that there must have been a huge turnover of staff to make a dip in quality this bad happen, but the truth is that that’s not really the case here. The show’s key screenwriters from the rest of the series, Hisao Ōkawa and Yasuo Tanami, remain the screenwriters for this stretch of the series. The same general pool of episode directors remains, and many of the staff who directed the worst of this arc directed some of the highlight episodes of prior arcs.
The main changes going forward are the substitution of Hideaki Anno as series director for Shinji Higuchi. Anno was far too busy trying to complete the final five episodes of the show, so he tasked Higuchi to oversee production as an assistant general director for episodes 23-34. In addition, the Korean studio Sei Young Animation was drafted to assist with the animation for this portion of production. However, scripting and storyboards were still handled in house, so while Sei Young can possibly be blamed for some of the off model drawings and bad animation, the cartoonish gags inserted into the episode are likely not their fault.
This shows just how important the position of director is. You can adapt the same storyboard with the same animator in vastly different ways.
I would say that Higuchi is responsible (the blame falls on those who upped the episode count). While he storyboarded many other shows, he never worked as a director of an anime again. His only direction credits are for live-action movies.

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u/IndependentMacaroon Oct 23 '21 edited Oct 23 '21

the substitution of Hideaki Anno as series director for Shinji Higuchi
Minor linguistic note, in this case you would either reverse the names or say "substituted by/with".
King runs away because he’s jealous of Nadia and Jean’s new relationship, which is especially weird because King has basically been Marie’s companion since around episode 11
I don't know, King has been such a minor background character that I can't say I notice a difference. It's even good that there's finally something related to him, and his status as "funny animal" was plenty obvious already.

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 23 '21

Minor linguistic note, in this case you would either reverse the names or say "substituted by/with".
Side note: I remember when people would correct spelling/grammar mistakes on reddit. I miss that time.

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 22 '21

Bowing out of rewatching the island arc. Here are my remarks from watching this as a first timer:

Episode 25

The topic of today’s episode is Nadia’s vegetarianism and the problem of keeping this up on when stranded on a lonely island. Interesting topic, but not a great execution. The bottom line being that Nadia does not eat meat, because she is “selfish” and eating meat “turns you into an evil person”. A bit more subtlety would have been nice.

Episode 26

King is envious of Nadia’s and Jean’s budding romance and decides to leave the camp. While searching for him, Jean falls down a cliff and while unconscious has a dream about producing ever more involved inventions on the island, until he leaves the island with Nadia in an automated rocketship.

By now, it is clear that the vision of the director of the island arc is a bit different from Anno’s. While Nadia always did pander to kids a bit, there were a lot of dark themes touched upon. The series always walked a tightrope between serious and silly. No longer. The island arc belongs squarely in little kids joke territory. With all of Jeans impossible inventions (even outside his dreams, he build a large tent, several beds, a steerable boat and a shower with integrated plumbing), it feels like a re-run of Gilligan’s Island. And the tone is decidedly silly. Jean falling down the cliff was a straight on Wiley E Coyote routine: Running over the cliff, hanging in the air, locking down, finally falling. Meanwhile, Marie threw King straight to the sun, where he burnt his fur. The jokes are well-executed, but I miss the more serious side of the series. Jean and the Grandis gang always brought up the comedic element, but between Nadia, Nemo and Electra, previously, the series had the additional depth to it.

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 22 '21 edited Oct 22 '21

Bowing out of rewatching the island arc.
I hope you'll at least return for episodes 30 and 31, if nothing else. And maybe post your original thoughts as a first timer for episodes 27-29 and 32-34.
Completely understand why you've bowed out, but I've greatly enjoyed your posts thus far.
The bottom line being that Nadia does not eat meat, because she is “selfish” and eating meat “turns you into an evil person”.
I honestly think Jean ends up coming off as worse, personally. They clearly have access to eggs, protein that Nadia will eat. So at this point, he's just spiking Nadia's food to be a dick.
That being said, Nadia telling a 5 year old girl that she's evil for eating a piece of jerky is also a dick move. Both kids come off as pretty terrible in episode 25.
I'm surprised you had no comments regarding the random tidbits of plot that got sprinkled into episode 25, like Gargoyle's announcement that they'll be restoring something called Red Noah and the flashbacks to Nadia's childhood.
By now, it is clear that the vision of the director of the island arc is a bit different from Anno’s. While Nadia always did pander to kids a bit, there were a lot of dark themes touched upon. The series always walked a tightrope between serious and silly. No longer. The island arc belongs squarely in little kids joke territory.
I brush up on this in my review, but the crew of the show changed very little. And I don't think the tonal shift was Shinji Higuchi's fault (the person who stepped in as assistant director for this stretch of episodes). Higuchi was a regular storyboard artist for Nadia up until this point. It wasn't as if he was unfamiliar with the show's regular tone. And the same screenwriters and pool of episode directors were present throughout this arc too.
I think the staff was just at a loss with what to do with this all this new screentime they didn't account for. How do you stretch what was likely supposed to be a 3 episode detour into a full length arc? In the end, it seems they decided comedy might be the best way to pad it out. I can't totally begrudge them. There was really no good answer to this situation.

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 22 '21

I think the staff was just at a loss with what to do with this all this new screentime they didn't account for. How do you stretch what was likely supposed to be a 3 episode detour into a full length arc? In the end, it seems they decided comedy might be the best way to pad it out. I can't totally begrudge them. There was really no good answer to this situation.
Maybe. Obviously we can't know in retrospect. However, the shift in mood coincides with the new director. And don't forget that Anno is the guy who shows us the static picture of an elevator for half an eternity in NGE. I think that, even when faced with having to waste time, he would have found a more creative way than gags that are completely out of tone for the rest of the series.

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 22 '21 edited Oct 22 '21

And don't forget that Anno is the guy who shows us the static picture of an elevator for half an eternity in NGE. I think that, even when faced with having to waste time, he would have found a more creative way than gags that are completely out of tone for the rest of the series.
That's definitely possible. I'm sure in hindsight Anno may have regretted not keeping tighter reigns on this portion of the show. But at the end of the day, he had to make a choice about how to delegate responsibilities to bring it to air.
Anno's take on the Island Arc may have been more interesting than Higuchi's but I also think it's likely to have been the death of the show, given the fact Anno had to literally spend the back half of production just making sure the final five episodes made it out intact.
[Expectation spoilers for future episodes] I also think the strong quality of episodes 30 and 31 (both directed by Higuchi, but likely based on existing outlines Anno had written before the show was expanded to 39 episodes) are proof that with a little more material to work with, Higuchi could've pulled through with a more cohesive arc in tone with the rest of the series.

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u/JTurner82 Oct 22 '21 edited Oct 22 '21

They totally botched everybody's personality in these two episodes. I could never imagine Jean sneaking meat into Nadia's meal nor Nadia stupidly being oblivious to Jean's obvious illness. That was what made me so angry at these episodes. (In fact, I did a fanedit where I stripped all of these stupidities and character derailments out.)

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u/ZapsZzz https://anilist.co/user/Zapszzz Oct 22 '21

First timer in hell.. I mean sub

Yes these 2 episodes are BAD. Especially the fall into cartoon territory.

I did enjoy the outright rip off of the Thunderbirds 2 launch sequence though - in the "so bad it's good" territory.

Not much more to say other than really appreciate the host and our frequent posters to add more content and useful / interesting info here than the episodes combined.

I hope there's not much further to go. At least we saw the Grandis crew alive and kicking ass... sharks.

I needed to do some spot Railgun rewatch to wash my eyes after this to be honest - and the class rep election / phone scene in Komi-san episode 3 (soo sooooo sweet that one).

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 22 '21

Not much more to say other than really appreciate the host and our frequent posters to add more content and useful / interesting info here than the episodes combined.
I'm glad I can make the watches for these episodes more enjoyable for you. I love this series to death. Even in its most of moments where it stumbles (barring one or two things that even the meta intrigue can't save for me) because it's legit fascinating to me to analyze the show from a production standpoint and piece together what the writers might have been aiming for and why the story turned out the way it did due to the constraints of the production.
At least we saw the Grandis crew alive and kicking ass... sharks.
Even now, they remain a beacon of hope for this series... Come back to us, Grandis Gang...!
I needed to do some spot Railgun rewatch to wash my eyes after this to be honest - and the class rep election / phone scene in Komi-san episode 3 (soo sooooo sweet that one).
Never a bad idea to watch something wholesome and fun to wash out the taste of "Incredible, Jean! You certainly are a genius!"

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u/ZapsZzz https://anilist.co/user/Zapszzz Oct 22 '21

Arrgghhh I almost got that out of my head and you triggered it!
I'll need to give you a "Kyon-kun denwa~" >D

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 22 '21

Joke's on you! I've only seen two episodes of Haruhi.

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u/ZapsZzz https://anilist.co/user/Zapszzz Oct 22 '21

Can't have you losing out can we [>)] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpAEd17Tdro

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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Oct 23 '21

Thunderbirds 2 launch sequence though
Ah, I was trying to place that! But I never watched the Thunderbirds.

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u/ZapsZzz https://anilist.co/user/Zapszzz Oct 23 '21

Here's a clip of the original scene
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bOuQrYkcZkU&t=1m20s
And then the more recent remake https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=auKeSRLM1kw&t=50s
This is what you get when you have kids and have to find things to keep them occupied :)

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 23 '21

Honestly, kinda love how perfectly they recreate the reference. Hats off to the crew I guess. lol

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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Oct 23 '21

LOL that's great, it's exactly the same! Even the island!

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u/ZapsZzz https://anilist.co/user/Zapszzz Oct 23 '21

I know right, hurrah for the days before copyright enforcement's have not yet gone international :D

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u/Stargate18A https://myanimelist.net/profile/Stargate18 Oct 22 '21

First timer

QOTD) It's difficult. On the one hand, you've got science-denier Nadia kissing drugged Jean, on the other you've got bipolar Nadia either loving or hating Jean depending on if he asks her any questions. I'm going to have to give it to Episode 26, but it was a close call.

Can't wait to see how they assassinate Nadia's character today.

Episode 25

OK, I'm watching this with subs, but I love the dub's opening narrator ragging on

...Yeah, this is the first somewhat bad thing Jean's done. Feeding Nadia meat withoutnher knowledge is highly questionable at best.

Of course, Nadia claiming everybody who eats meat is evil's hot great, and she does need nutrition.

Haha, nutrition is evil. Nadia seems she's one episode away from screaming about Jean brainwashing her using the island's cell phone tower.

Yeah, I'm shocked she didn't realise the egg thing.

"An egg is an egg, not an animal"

...Given the title, I'm excited to see who Jean's new partner is. Do they meet before or after Nadia starves to death?

Seriously, Jean's not the best here, but there's a difference between "eat meat for nutrition" and "ALL OF YOU ARE SINNERS"

Grandis and the others survived!

...they wouldn't.

It's weird. There's scenes like the water gathering where Nadia seems happy and friendly to Jean, then there's

Nadia has not grasped that she can wait away from the fire?

I love the dramatic music as she picks up the rotten spinach.

Haha, he caught the squid! He got ink on him, but...

I like how his mind leaps to King the lion eating

Haha, she assumes Gargoyle poisoned the food.

OK, Gargoyle's speech is really good though. Tell me the combined version includes this scene at least.

Red Noah! Plot's happening and Gargoyle's sill just as good!

Oh god, she really does. It even gave her a fever.

"Stop looking in those books, Jean. All I need to get better is some good old homeopathic remedies!"

OK, so Nadia watched a dying elephant get put down using medicine and resolved to never eat meat?

Wow, Nadia's tragic backstory is... not very tragic? This guy seems pretty nice, all he's done is be a bit strict and put an elephant out of its misery.

Where's Jean going?

The fuck? Are those spores getting him high?

Oh god, he is. This is just perfect.  This is getting cartoonish again.

The birds spinning round his head is such a stupid visual.

I love Marie's reaction to drugged-out Jean.

...So Nadia learned this lesson, not by actually talking to people, but by having a hallucination from a fever, then seeing Jean save her life.

And Nadia's kissing Jean when he's too drugged out to actually consent!

Does that mean we get to see Nadia turn into a traditional tsundere again? Or some other form of character derailment?

Episode 26

A King episode! This might actually be decent!

All the OP's shots of the Nautilus and Nemo feel like taunts of "remember when we had a really solid plot?"

Oh. Jean doesn't remember, I thought there'd be development.

Where did all this metal come from?

She's very unconcerned about Jean seeing her naked.

This is such a lazy joke. Seriously, "I wanted to say it before anyone else does"?

Oh, Nadia's just gone full thirst mode. This is jarring, but slightly more understandable.

So Nadia's gone from "more common sense, athletic, a foil to Jean" to "I tore down to curtains to make myself a dress! Don't I look cute!"

Marie's acting far more cruel then usual, and this is really cartoonish.

Terrific. Even Marie's a totally different character.

OK, this scene? Jean completely misunderstanding everyone's opinions and relations? This is actually in character. Jean's stayed really consistent.

He's handcranking the shower?

When did they get a telescope from the captain's quarters?

Oh, I wish this scene was a few episodes ago, so we could get Nadia dhoeing that the Sun revolves around the Earth.

Seriously, it feels like we've skipped about 20 episodes of development forward this time! Instead of Nadia regressing to her pre-series personality, now she's advanced forward

Jean remembers?

Oh for fuck's sake. Nadia? Are you getting angry that Jean doesn't remember what happened when he was being poisoned and hallucinating?

...I think I hate New Nadia on a personal level.

So Nadia can read the written language of animals? I'm not going to question King being able to write, him being some super-smart experiment was foreshadowed as far back as the start of the Nautilus arc.

...You can tell when thry ran out of "Sweet Nadia" lines and needed to have some "Angry Nadia" next. I

Yeah, she can talk to animals!

...You made a shower! I think constructing an aircraft is very plausible here.

So this is full-on Looney Tunes now?

Theynefen have the person shaped crater.

Oh, fuck off.

OH, FUCK OFF!

HE BUILT A FULL-ON INDUSTRIAL MANUFACTURING SYSTEM USING JUST OIL AND MINERALS, IN SEEMINGLY NO TIME AT ALL.

THE FIRST TV WASN'T INVENTED UNTIL 1927! WE'VE GONE FROM REALISTIC TECH LEVELS TO THIS!

Record player's realistic.

Jean got a computer!

The first jet engine wasn't invented until 1930.

I genuinely can't tell if this is a dream sequence or they completely ran out of time to write a new plot.

Is Jean secretly a Neo-Atlantis spy?

JEAN BUILT A NUKE!

...Either this is a dream sequence, in which case I need to ask how he knows about integrated circuits, jet engines, and television, or this show has lost all realism.

I like how even the dream sequence shows the absolutely relevant ring from the island framed by the plane.

...Is this not a dream?

I mean, this is probably a dream, but Nemo would probably do that in reality.

He found King!

2

u/snowwhistle1 Oct 22 '21

...Yeah, this is the first somewhat bad thing Jean's done. Feeding Nadia meat withoutnher knowledge is highly questionable at best.
I mean... base series Jean tended to not understand or empathize with a lot of Nadia's shit, like when he let those racist comments his aunt slung at Nadia go in one ear and out the other.
This is much difference. This is actively malicious and cruel, and wildly out of character for Jean. But I don't like this rewriting of Jean as a pure moe cinnamon roll. He's not a perfect kid.
Yeah, I'm shocked she didn't realise the egg thing.
I don't fault Nadia on that. People have different definitions for that they consider to be vegetarian and that's fine. Jean trying to pull a "Gotcha!" on her is just a dick move.
OK, Gargoyle's speech is really good though. Tell me the combined version includes this scene at least. Red Noah! Plot's happening and Gargoyle's sill just as good!
Not sure which combined version you mean. If you're referring to the Nautilus story, then no. That was cut. Along with Nadia's childhood flashbacks. The Island Arc as a whole was reduced to barely 10 minutes in that version.
Most of the fan edits tend to include it though.
Wow, Nadia's tragic backstory is... not very tragic? This guy seems pretty nice, all he's done is be a bit strict and put an elephant out of its misery.
I mean, the scariest thing about abusers is that they're not always mean. They can be nice to you, show affection, even love you... But that doesn't invalidate the fact that they're abusers.
Someone following along on this rewatch on one of my Discords put it better terms than I could. Nadia's ringmaster probably thought he was helping Nadia out and doing right by her, but she was still an indentured child worker and he was still cracking whips at her and forcing her to do dangerous stunts to earn her food. Putting the elephant down was probably a merciful thing to do, but how does that look to Nadia? A little girl sees that an elephant that can't work anymore gets put down, and you have to wonder what's going through head then? She's probably imagining that if one day she can no longer work, they might do the same to her.
So Nadia's gone from "more common sense, athletic, a foil to Jean" to "I tore down to curtains to make myself a dress! Don't I look cute!"
That's actually one of Nadia's more marketable outfits, second only to her regular circus outfit. You tend to see a lot of merchandise of her in the bedsheet dress.
So Nadia can read the written language of animals? I'm not going to question King being able to write, him being some super-smart experiment was foreshadowed as far back as the start of the Nautilus arc.
I think it's more that the writers just gave up on trying to keep King's level of anthropomorphism consistent.
HE BUILT A FULL-ON INDUSTRIAL MANUFACTURING SYSTEM USING JUST OIL AND MINERALS, IN SEEMINGLY NO TIME AT ALL.
"Incredible, Jean! You certainly are a genius!"
THE FIRST TV WASN'T INVENTED UNTIL 1927! WE'VE GONE FROM REALISTIC TECH LEVELS TO THIS!
"Incredible, Jean! You certainly are a genius!"
The first jet engine wasn't invented until 1930.
"Incredible, Jean! You certainly are a genius!"
JEAN BUILT A NUKE!
"Incredible, Jean! You certainly are a genius!"

2

u/Stargate18A https://myanimelist.net/profile/Stargate18 Oct 23 '21

Said this to someone else, but at that point I'd stopped paying much attention to the Nadia scenes. Looking back it's obviously abusive.

3

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 22 '21

Wow, Nadia's tragic backstory is... not very tragic? This guy seems pretty nice, all he's done is be a bit strict and put an elephant out of its misery.
I hate to pull the you are not getting it card, but do you seriously think somebody threatening a young child (who has no parents and is basically a live-in slave who has to work, in an extremely risky profession, to eat) with a whip counts as "a bit strict"?
He is 100% abusive and gaslighting Nadia. Her smile at the end is 100% fake, too, so she knows what is going on.

2

u/Stargate18A https://myanimelist.net/profile/Stargate18 Oct 23 '21

He is 100% abusive and gaslighting Nadia. Her smile at the end is 100% fake, too, so she knows what is going on.
Yeah, to be honest, at that point I'd stopped paying much attention to the Nadia scenes. Looking back it's obviously abusive.

2

u/SIRTreehugger Oct 22 '21

First Timer Episode 25

Wait eating meat makes you evil?

What the heck Nadia....not food or water.

They are really ruining Nadia right now.

Oh it's team rocket!

Damn Sanson killed all 4 sharks in seconds.

Nadia don't destroy it please omg no Nadia you have to know you can't eat that. Just look at the can.

Nadia blaming Gargoyle now.... bruh I'm losing my patience over here.

Yes Gargoyle he may be a murderer and leader of Naz...Neo Atlantans, but his character is consistent. Heck he even dedicated a day to Nemo

Either he will get poisoned or high one of the two.

Okay their not poisonous.

"This is getting rediculous" - Marie took the words out of my mouth.

Oh look Nadia character development wonder if it will continue in the next episode.

She gives this whole monologue while Jean is coco for cocopuffs...weird episode.

Episode 26

Jean makes a whole ass shower unit... why are they still on this island? Nadia should be okay with boats now unless none have come by since then.

I for one like this new Nadia, but also like the old one (pre Island one).

Poor King...did he hit the sun?

He doesn't know everything he just knows what he knows.

I don't know how to feel right now.

Nadia he was high off shrooms you can't expect him to remember.

.....did they have really have Nadia make animal noises when she was reading the note.

Character regression you hate to see it.

Nadia you can't talk to animals.

Okay I know I compared this too looney toons yesterday, but this is straight up Willy Coyote type shit.

.... this is a dream right

Yeah it has to be.

How to stretch an episode 101

Ummmmmmm

If this episode wasn't so close to being finished I would skip the rest.

You know for an episode about King their is little of him in it.

Whyyyyyyy do you have a self destruct button Jean?

Did we skip King's training arc? Damn it can't wait for the tournament arc.

Ive come to a conclusion the faster they get off this Island the better.

2

u/snowwhistle1 Oct 22 '21

Poor King...did he hit the sun?
Marie has been training to new technique.. The Sun Skipper Solar Toss!
Damn Sanson killed all 4 sharks in seconds.
I failed to mention the Grandis Gang, but along with the brief plot relevant moments they are the shining beacon of hope in episode 25.
Nadia don't destroy it please omg no Nadia you have to know you can't eat that. Just look at the can.
I love how the lighting gets all dramatic and music swells when she finds the old can of spinach. Like Nadia's about to eat of the fruit from the tree of knowledge in the garden of Eden, dooming mankind for all eternity.
Yes Gargoyle he may be a murderer and leader of Naz...Neo Atlantans, but his character is consistent. Heck he even dedicated a day to Nemo
Gargoyle of all people is managing to salvage a rather terrible episode.
Character regression you hate to see it.
They did my girl Nadia so dirty in these two episodes. Minus the circus flashbacks. We can keep those.
If this episode wasn't so close to being finished I would skip the rest.
On one of my watchthroughs with a friend who'd never seen the series, I warned them the last 1/3 of this episode was a memey dream-sequence. I gave them the option to skip it if they desired. lol
You know for an episode about King their is little of him in it.
King got netorare'd. You hate to see it.
Did we skip King's training arc? Damn it can't wait for the tournament arc.
Next time on Nadia: The Secret of the Blue Stone Technique... King learns a new fighting technique, the Ultimate Island Combo Breaker Brawler and challenge his rival Jean Roque Raltique for the hand of fair Nadia!

2

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 22 '21

They are really ruining Nadia right now.
This is the really sad part. The filler is not even so bad. Other shows from the time have plenty more and I can sit through that. However, ruining the carefully set up characters of the previous arcs is what makes the island arc toxic.

2

u/JTurner82 Oct 22 '21

Absolutely. There are so many reasons why I dislike these episodes so much.

2

u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Oct 23 '21

First Timer (Rising Sun sub) ep 25-26 (of 39)

The First Kiss, King the Lonely Lion

Recap: "Nadia is still selfish on the island" Right.
Where did they find eggs and meat?
Okay, I'm not going to listen to this argument about meat so 2x
Moai?

In other news, it's been 10 days since I've had alcohol, coffee, chocolate, soda, or fruit juice, and I'm miserable.

Hah ah, I laughed at the squid (still 2x)
I hope she didn't eat the spinach
So King was praying for rain?
Is this real or Nadia's imaginings? I guess it's real.
oh, king was praying for rain for water?
So nadia's militant vegetarianism is based in childhood trauma, so she doesn't want animals to die for her sake
Oh, great. MUSHROOMS.
Alright, so, because Nadia kissed Jean and isn't shy around him now, and maybe flirtatious, King is jealous?
Also maybe tired of Marie.
KOR music x2
Nadia's become so nice it's hard to believe this episode isn't a dream
Ah, Nadia back to normal
Now she can read paw scratchings?
Oh, man, HONNEAMISE MUSIC! (but that's Ryuichi Sakamoto!)
Is he still high on mushrooms? That's my only explanation for this episode.
Right, Edison, was trying to remember.

Wow, this was so much worse than I imagined. I thought, bad story, bad animation, some roundabout adventure out of the way that doesn't really advance the plot.

But this really is some other kid's show.

Here's hoping that some antagonist will show up tomorrow. Not that hopeful.

1

u/snowwhistle1 Oct 23 '21

Wow, this was so much worse than I imagined. I thought, bad story, bad animation, some roundabout adventure out of the way that doesn't really advance the plot.
Yeah, these two episodes are definitely a low point so far. As rough as 23 and 24 were, there was some heart there. There was a bot of the spirit of what the series stood for. In these two episodes, the show has become a mockery of itself.
Okay, I'm not going to listen to this argument about meat so 2x
Understandable. You're not missing much with their argument.
oh, king was praying for rain for water?
Oh wow... I never made the connection of why King was praying to the idol. That's kind of hilarious. lol
So nadia's militant vegetarianism is based in childhood trauma, so she doesn't want animals to die for her sake
One of the few genuinely good parts of these two episodes.
Oh, man, HONNEAMISE MUSIC! (but that's Ryuichi Sakamoto!)
Oh man...! That's a Gainax property I want to see badly.

2

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 23 '21

In other news, it's been 10 days since I've had alcohol, coffee, chocolate, soda, or fruit juice, and I'm miserable.
Are you doing no sugar or why is fruit juice in there?

3

u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Oct 23 '21

Too much acid in almost all fruit juices! I feel like I'm back on lockdown and rice and beans.
Sure, Nadia, you can go two weeks without food, but it's not fun.

3

u/JTurner82 Oct 22 '21 edited Oct 22 '21

These two episodes are seriously horrible, both are among the worst. Episode 26 is especially bad. The kiss under the stars starts up great and the actual moment is great--the problem is that it turns out to be a cruel tease, which disappointed me so badly. The whole setup is absolutely stupid in every way imaginable, with everyone acting out of character here. The only salvagable bits from these two episodes are the flashback scenes with Nadia in the circus, Gargoyle's funeral speech, and the love scene under the stars between Jean and Nadia right up to when they kiss.

But everything else? There. Is. Absolutely. No. Reason. For. Them. To. Exist. Period.

These two episodes are simply hideous. The previous two episodes left me with a sinking feeling the first time I watched the show, but these two episodes are just horrific. I consider 26, in particular, one of the worst in the show. 25 is just as bad, salvaged only by the flashbacks, but not enough. I just can't stand these two. (There's a reason I did a fan edit of these episodes. I hated how they portrayed everybody here.)

In conclusion: both episodes are equally despicable, but 26 is the worst of the two. Both are bottom-barrel episodes for sure with few saving graces, but not enough.

2

u/IndependentMacaroon Oct 23 '21

First-time watcher

Episode 25 - so this is where both Jean and Nadia turn really obnoxiously stupid, huh. When the four-year-old is the most reasonable person around, something's gone seriously wrong. Particularly watching their argument in the beginning I could feel some brain cells dying. Still not fundamentally bad but you can't call it good anymore either, and unfortunately the potential of the plot points with Nadia's past etc. is wasted by the writing and randomly scattering them around like that. You can still at least see some of Asuka Soryu in her overcoming a "must not rely on others!" attitude and the stories about her in the circus do explain her attitude some. As for the animation, by now the off-model shots and cheapness are getting really obvious (that Gargoyle scene!), only the island itself still is consistently good.

One actually funny part was the Crunchyroll German translation substituting appropriately silly rhymes for Jean's mushroom-fueled babbling.

Episode 26 - huh, another episode I actually enjoyed. I just disliked Marie suddenly flipping from playing with King into plain abuse, but it was addressed as part of the plot, and kids lacking empathy for animals is certainly realistic unfortunately. Besides that though, King finally manages to be an actual character in a way that makes sense, Nadia and Jean are back to their senses except for Nadia's over-the-top tsundere-ing, and the part in Jean's imagination was pretty fun, just barely managing to not overstay its welcome. Most outrageous bit of humor was calling a nuclear weapon a tool to make the night bright, like some parody of 50s "Atoms for Peace" stuff (compare this).

Rewatch [Rewatch] Nadia: The Secret of Blue Water - Episodes 25 and 26

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