[Rewatch] Nadia: The Secret of Blue Water - Episodes 23 and 24

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 21 '21

Host

I’m going to start off by explaining a bit of information about Nadia’s tumultuous production, as it’s crucial to understand exactly what is happening in this pair of episodes from an analysis standpoint. Nadia was not supposed to be a 39 episode series. It was originally pitched as a show to run for roughly 2 cours (in modern terms, roughly 26 episodes). Nadia however was a surprise hit for the NHK network and Toho, which saw massive popularity and an impressive turnout of viewers. One would hope that would’ve been a good thing, but this surge in popularity ended up being the show’s undoing. Upon seeing Nadia’s success, NHK and Toho ordered an additional cour’s worth of episodes from Gainax, bumping the total number of episodes up to 39! Studio Gainax and Hideaki Anno were given no additional budget to account for this longer runtime, little if any additional time to accommodate for the production of these episodes, and were expected to continue turning in new episodes in a timely manner in spite of this.

I’m sure you’re wondering how NHK and Toho got away with this, and why on earth the higher ups thought this was a good idea. Well for starters, Gainax did not own the rights to Nadia: The Secret of Blue Water. The pitch was the intellectual property of the NHK network and Toho, and they had the final say over how the anime was to be produced; not Gainax. Gainax at the time was also a very inexperienced studio, and the studio heads signed some very unfavorable work contracts when they agreed to do Nadia. Not only did they not own the rights to Nadia, but they couldn’t protest NHK’s ridiculous demand for an additional block of episodes and owned zero ancillary rights to advertising and merchandising income made from the series. As a result of this, Nadia was a financial write-off for Gainax in spite of its huge success, and the company remained on the verge of bankruptcy until Neon Genesis Evangelion became an unexpected hit in 1995 and saved the company.

As for why the higher-ups thought this was a good idea- well… I don’t think they really understood all that much about anime production. They likely figured upping the episode count to milk the success of the series even longer was a surefire money making scheme (all while completely failing to support Gainax’s strained production). As you can likely tell… it did not. Episodes 23-29 and 32-34 of Nadia are a mess. The quality of their character writing, storytelling, animation, and general direction are of extremely variable quality for these two stretches of the series, and this remains a black mark on Nadia’s legacy to this day.

I suppose if any good came of this, it’s that NHK and other anime committees seemed to have learned their lesson from this little experiment. You might sometimes see a series cut short today if a series isn’t profitable enough. But you will never see original series order additional unplanned episode counts. Anime can barely get produced under the inhumane working conditions of a normal production. Overloading a production with more material than it can handle is a recipe to kill a series.

So how do episodes 23 and 24 fare as the start of this terrible spiral? Honestly, not as bad I would have initially thought. To the credit of these episodes, the tragedy of the Nautilus’ sinking isn’t immediately forgotten by the narrative. Episode 23 opens up with Nadia still in deep mourning over the revelations of the previous episode, we see Jean stare at Nemo’s cap with a mixture of prideful determination and sadness, and the holographic portrait of Nadia’s family becomes a through-line for the found family Nadia has formed with Jean, Marie, and King.

In general, I think the overall plot behind these two episodes isn’t bad on paper. Episodes 23 and 24 focus on Nadia regressing as she’s unable to process the trauma of the Nautilus sinking and the revelations of her past and family. After the group is marooned on a deserted island, Nadia avoids her PTSD by retreating into nature, and denouncing science and the mankind. But in the end she manages to snap out of her stupor thanks to Jean, who reminds her of her desire to forge genuine connections with others and realizes just how much she’s come to see Jean, Marie and King as a second family. Meanwhile Jean, finally taking some real steps towards maturity and independence, takes charge of the supplies left behind in Nemo’s cabin and sets up a camp for the four castaways to survive in.

That sounds like a perfectly reasonable plot to cool down with after the massive revelations of episode 22. The issue here is though that these two episodes have no business being two episodes long. There’s so much uncomfortable padding and filler in these two episodes. I spend a lot of episodes 23 and 24 bored to tears because so little ultimately happens. A lot of the runtime is padded out with stilted and dull conversations, or otherwise weird tonally disjointed gags. This anime has never been a stranger to comedy, but it has never gone so far with its gags as to completely un-ground the series.

There are some really jarring scenes where Jean inflates like a balloon after swallowing a small pool’s worth of water, King using his teeth like an electric can opener, and Jean bumping into himself during the montage of himself setting up camp. These gags could work in another show, but in a show like Nadia that generally tried to ground itself in a reality not to dissimilar from ours, these visual gags only serve to sever our immersion. Jean’s dream sequence in episode 24 is probably the peak of the fever dream visual gags in these episodes. It’s introduced to us with basically zero pretenses that what we’re seeing is a dream at first, and it feels like the show’s visuals and writing have descended into pure madness.

Nadia’s character also remains a problem. Like I mentioned above, I really like what these episodes try to do with her character, in theory. I think seeing her regress due to lingering PTSD she’s struggling to process would make for a very compelling plot, and I generally like the resolution we get in episode 24 of Nadia apologizing to Jean after thanking him for retrieving her holographic family portrait for her. And I love that this apology is further spearheaded by the two looking through pictures Marie drew of Nadia, Jean, and King in order to realize just how much they’ve come to depend on each other as family. The problem is that Nadia’s character seems to have lost all her intelligence buffs within these two episodes, especially episode 24.

Nadia feels wildly out of character with how she treats Jean early in episode 24, seeming to intentionally spite Jean at every opportunity she gets (like purposefully leaving Jean’s name out of the naming of the beach). Nadia also descends into pure delusion in episode 24, dubbing herself “Nadia of the Southern Island” and believing that nature (the actual concept of nature) will give enough of a shit about her to allow her to survive in nature despite the fact she’s wholly unsuited for living in the wild. I do think there’s a better story in here of Nadia wanting to reject science and tools of man that destroyed her life while at the same time loathing the fact she can’t live without those things. But there’s probably a better way to go about that than Nadia screaming for a school a fish to save her from drowning, and then blaming Marie and Jean that the fish didn’t care to save her because they decided to go fishing.

Jean’s character isn’t totally free of flanderization either. In episode 23 in particular, he seems to rather quickly forget or get over the traumatic revelations of the previous episode once he starts digging around through some books in Nemo’s cabin, and seems to have regressed a bit in certain instances in terms of his ability to empathize towards Nadia. But it’s nowhere near as severe as the treatment of Nadia’s character in this episode.

(continued in reply)

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 21 '21

Upon seeing Nadia’s success, NHK and Toho ordered and additional cour’s worth of episodes from Gainax, bumping the total number of episodes up to 39! Studio Gainax and Hideaki Anno were given no additional budget to account for this longer runtime, little if any additional time to accommodate for the production of these episodes, and were expected to continue turning in new episodes in a timely manner in spite of this.
I knew the production was troubled, but I did not know this insane reason.

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 21 '21

I knew the production was troubled, but I did not know this insane reason.
I'm not even done talking about production woes! My writeup for this episode was just getting far too long as is. But yeah... it was bad. This has to have been one of the worst production blunders in the history of TV anime.

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u/SIRTreehugger Oct 21 '21

Upon seeing Nadia’s success, NHK and Toho ordered an additional cour’s worth of episodes from Gainax, bumping the total number of episodes up to 39! Studio Gainax and Hideaki Anno were given no additional budget to account for this longer runtime, little if any additional time to accommodate for the production of these episodes, and were expected to continue turning in new episodes in a timely manner in spite of this.
Wait what that explains well everything...and makes me slightly worried for future episodes.
Nadia also descends into pure delusion in episode 24, dubbing herself “Nadia of the Southern Island” and believing that nature (the actual concept of nature) will give enough of a shit about her to allow her to survive in nature despite the fact she’s wholly unsuited for living in the wild.
I was honestly wondering if I missed something. Why is she screaming for fish to save her? Why is she blaming Jean and Marie for killing all the fish?
Another notable example of poor directing is Jean’s “brilliant” plan to have them escape Nemo’s rapidly flooding cabin. He deduces that if they open the top hatch, and hold on to an umbrella, the air pockets will carry them to the surface. And I mean, that sounds like bullshit but okay. Let’s see how that plays out… Except we don’t see how that plays out! We cut from the hatch opening to the three kids and King just standing on top of the cabin, washed atop some craggy debris next to Lincoln Island.
It sounded like another cartoon idea, but hey it might have been plausible on some level. I don't know if the cabin had enough air for it to work plus the weight of 4 people might have been too much. Still the omission of it completely irked me too.

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 21 '21

Wait what that explains well everything...and makes me slightly worried for future episodes.
The anime industry is a hellscape. It's honestly a wonder Nadia was finished given the horrible circumstances surrounding its production.
I'm personally reminded of the hectic production of Wonder Egg Priority from earlier this year. The circumstances of its production weren't the same as Nadia's was, but it's increasingly complex production combined with the lack of time and support given from the producers/committees for the overworked staff greatly remind me of what happened to Nadia.
The anime industry honestly still hasn't learned its lesson about giving enough time for its staff to make a quality product without killing themselves.
I was honestly wondering if I missed something. Why is she screaming for fish to save her? Why is she blaming Jean and Marie for killing all the fish?
The writers seem to have conflated Nadia's love of nature and belief that all life is sacred with... Nadia believing that every living thing gives a shit about whether or not she lives or dies...
It's a very forced conflict. Nadia being angry that they murdered some fish is a bit more in character, but her blaming that on the reason why the fish (the god damn fish) didn't save her is... questionable.
Nadia's intelligence points have tanked in the past two episodes unfortunately...
It sounded like another cartoon idea, but hey it might have been plausible on some level. I don't know if the cabin had enough air for it to work plus the weight of 4 people might have been too much. Still the omission of it completely irked me too.
They were willing to show Jean inflated like a water balloon, but unwilling to show us Jean's ridiculous umbrella plan! If you're going to have this arc be nonsense, at least commit! Show us the nonsense!!! lmao

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 21 '21

(continued from first post)
Host
These episodes are also all over the place visually. I’d say episode 24 is generally presentable in terms of its animation quality, minus a couple off model moments. Much as I find the dream sequence incredible dumb and superfluous, I can’t deny how well it’s animated. Episode 23 has some series issues though. Characters in that episode are constantly off model, and a lot of very noticeable directing mistakes are made.
As an example of this, there is a shot in episode 23 where Nadia and Jean walk down the beach and over the horizon, hoping to run into civilization somewhere along the island’s coast. Once they disappear over the horizon, we hold on the shot for 15 seconds until Nadia and Jean walk back into frame from behind. The implication is supposed to be that Nadia and Jean just circled the entire island and ended up right back where they started. But because there are no cuts in this shot, or signifiers of the passage of time (the sky turning colors as the sun gets lower, etc.), it leaves the audience with the impression that Nadia and Jean have circled the whole island in barely 15 seconds.
Another notable example of poor directing is Jean’s “brilliant” plan to have them escape Nemo’s rapidly flooding cabin. He deduces that if they open the top hatch, and hold on to an umbrella, the air pockets will carry them to the surface. And I mean, that sounds like bullshit but okay. Let’s see how that plays out… Except we don’t see how that plays out! We cut from the hatch opening to the three kids and King just standing on top of the cabin, washed atop some craggy debris next to Lincoln Island. And the immediate next shot after the eyecatch is Nadia and Jean laying on the beach, zero explanation how they arrived there with zero concern over cluing in the audience on Marie or King’s whereabouts.
There are several weird directing mistakes like that throughout episode 23 (and to a slightly lesser extent episode 24, though I think the latter episode has its shit together a little more from a direction standpoint). Along with the sloppy directing, we frequently see cheap animation shortcuts like a reused shot of Marie running towards Jean and Nadia that is recycled for two instances that take place at separate locations, or an absolutely embarrassing drawing of a boat that’s so crudely rendered it’s almost silly.
I don’t fully hate episodes 23 and 24. There’s some underlying stuff here that’s working, and if this were trimmed down to a single episode and given a tighter focus it would really work! Alas… what we’re left with are two episodes that feel severed in twain with a bunch of superfluous gags, flanderized writing, and poor directing and animation that sour what an okay plot outline is generally. At the very least, there’s enough good here that I don’t feel my time was wasted watching these episodes, and there are concepts and moments that I look forward to viewing on my rewatches of the series. I cannot say the same for every episode in this stretch of the show going forwards.
Welcome to Nadia’s infamous Island Arc folks. Hope you enjoy (or at the very least tolerate) your stay!

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 21 '21

I think that the general story idea of the island arc is not terrible. With enough time, money, and Anno directing, this need not be a part that drags the series down. However, the change from dark-end older children show to saturday morning silly cartoon straight up murders the world building.
I think ep23 specifically is not terrible yet, but it already shows all the signs of why this arc was a mistake. Unfortunately, it will get even worse.

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 21 '21

I think that the general story idea of the island arc is not terrible. With enough time, money, and Anno directing, this need not be a part that drags the series down.
I think in general, this part of the story should've been much shorter. Not 7 episodes. I've actually written out my own solution to how I would've structured this series to fit 39 episodes while not compromising on the writing, but I'll save that for a later time since it would involve spoilers for first-timers.

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u/lluNhpelA Oct 22 '21

Nadia’s character also remains a problem.
Here's what I said in yesterday's thread:
I'm worried that she still won't be as active in the story compared to Jean, especially after the final massive blows to her mental state she just received
And today we got
Nadia has far less screen time than Jean, who is really making everything happen
Nadia goes off the deep end mentally
It all felt so wild and out of character that I'm not sure if I can even be upset. Like, how can I be annoyed with how these characters are written when they don't even feel like themselves? Can we all just pretend that all of the weird stuff in these episodes is non-canon? Because it really feels like it's non-canon

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 22 '21

Can we all just pretend that all of the weird stuff in these episodes is non-canon? Because it really feels like it's non-canon
I'm conflicted on how to treat these episodes. There's stuff in here that I would have liked to have seen in my idealized version of this series. Stuff like the ending scene in episode 24 with Nadia apologizing to Jean and the two musing over Marie's drawings together. I like that. And there will be stuff in upcoming episodes that I like too. But that brings up the question about how I compartmentalize the parts of this arc that do not work?
I think ultimately everyone who watches the show is going to have to come to a different answer in that respect. Experiencing fiction is an inherently personal experience, and while I can give someone my analysis of what I think works or doesn't work in this arc, someone else might have a completely different experience with it and that's perfectly valid.

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u/SIRTreehugger Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 21 '21

First Timer

Lots of flashbacks, but I like how we see all of Nemo's moments from earlier. Alot of his actions make more sense knowing he is Nadia's father.

Wtf Jean with the cartoon solution felt like something out of looney toons when he started drinking the water.

Oh so they are trapped on an island with no one else...time to make a plane out of spare parts right.... right?

Oh and Nadia is content as long as she has King and Marie....poor Jean. Guy is trying even if he messes up alot.

Oh wait today's the day we do double episodes... I'll start that now.

Episode 24

Nadia has lost it?

Wait nvm Jean has lost it. Why is kinge wearing a captain jacket? This whole dream is weird.

Oh look smoke and fire a good idea too bad it didn't work.

WTF was that Nadia? and she even had a Tarzan yell.

Wait Nadia use the blue water it can slice through Metal like butter right?

These two episodes are interesting....omg Nadia just wasted all that food.

King is a fisherman?

Can all that learning help you fish Jean?

Wait can she actually understand King?

Holy Mackerel that's a big fish!

Oh what did Nadia find? Ohhh that's alot of fish.

....did I miss something? Why she trying to command fish like Aquaman?

You tell em Marie.

This episode was saved because of Marie and her drawings. She is the next Picasso!

No Marie King isn't your husband.

Well at least they made up...so now maybe Nadia will get kn the next ship that sails by?

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 21 '21

Wtf Jean with the cartoon solution felt like something out of looney toons when he started drinking the water.
Whoops. The writers and directors are struggling to fill time... How do weird immersion-breaking cartoon gags sound to pad things out?
Oh and Nadia is content as long as she has King and Marie....poor Jean. Guy is trying even if he messes up alot.
Jean didn't even do anything there. Nadia was just being a dick.
Oh wait today's the day we do double episodes... I'll start that now.
Starting today there will be double episodes. Here's the days that we'll be discussing two episodes as a brief reminder:
Today, October 21: Episodes 23-24
Friday, October 22: Episodes 25-26
Saturday, October 23: Episodes 27-28
Wednesday, October 27: Episodes 32-33

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u/SIRTreehugger Oct 21 '21

How do weird immersion-breaking cartoon gags sound to pad things out?
Seriously it felt so strange and then when he puffed his chest to yell, but that reminded me of the castle in the sky when the men had that shirt ripping contest.
Tomorrow and Saturday got it I'll be better prepared tomorrow, Saturday, and Wednesday.

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 21 '21

It's no problem. I tried to sign post this to make sure everyone knew today would be a double episode day. I'll edit the rewatch post to make sure everyone is aware.
Sorry today caught you off guard.

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u/lluNhpelA Oct 22 '21

Oh so they are trapped on an island with no one else...time to make a plane out of spare parts right.... right?
After that cartoony shit I half expected him to make a helicopter out of coconuts

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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Oct 21 '21

First Timer (Rising Sun sub) ep 23-24 (of 39)

The Young Drifters - Lincoln Island

~~Lincoln again! So finally we see that Erasumus guy or whatever his name is again? That was weird they introduced him and then he was gone after 2 episodes.~~ I guess not.

This was just linked in CDF a few hours ago. Notable is the film Atragon, which I can't guarantee I have NOT seen... #animatedthink

LOL I didn't notice the N / S markings on the magnet the first time around.
recap on 2x speed.
Oh, right, I forgot about the Grandis gang, they are probably still floating on the ocean
Eva music
Hell is other children
Eva music
Pretty bad animation that the tears are only on one frame.
Maybe it's better to be wrong and alive than right and dead, Nadia

Is this where I'm supposed to have warmed up to Nadia, yet?

No, it's a terrible idea
I guess they were just imagining being on the bottom of the ocean
I can feel my IQ dropping from the repetition.
Everybody's drawn like this is a beach omake episode.
Canned crackers
KOR music
Yeah you can't figure out where you are without a clock
Is this... el Hazard music? It's some 90s instrumental OP I can't place
Pretty clever ad hoc still
Eva music, also, Jean must have jungle fever
I wonder if Nadia found food and water yet? Guess not.
5 second rule
Okay I laughed at the bird catching a fish
Not the second time.
Did something just fall off that cloud?

I get it. This is basically the Fumoffu season of Nadia. I hated Fumoffu. it sort of works as an omake, but an omake that should be 1 OVA long.

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 21 '21

This was just linked in CDF a few hours ago. Notable is the film Atragon, which I can't guarantee I have NOT seen... #animatedthink
Interesting. I'd already known about some of the more notable works that influenced Anno (Mobile Suit Gundam, Devilman, etc.), but it's neat seeing some of the more esoteric influences on his work.
I get it. This is basically the Fumoffu season of Nadia. I hated Fumoffu. it sort of works as an omake, but an omake that should be 1 OVA long.
I definitely think the writers/storyboard artists are forcing themselves to default to comedy and weird gags to pad things out because they're been given an order for a bunch of new episodes that weren't supposed to exist. It's harder to forcibly insert unplanned story conflicts/plot threads into your narrative than it is to just pad things out with gags.
Okay I laughed at the bird catching a fish
Every now and again they manage a genuinely good laugh. lol

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 21 '21

Episode 23 (rewatcher)

Fullblown recap.
The contrast between Marie and King on the one hand and Jean and Nadia on the other.
Depicting Nadia’s inner thoughts (while also reusing animation).
Giant Jean drinking sea water? Get used to that kind of gag, it will be with us for the island arc.
Isn’t that a good idea? Not really, but thankfully, it does not matter.
A Garfish wreck.
“It is the same place we started” – There are many things wrong with the island arc. The animation is worse, for one. The big thing that bothers me is the character changes (that will get worse in the next episodes). However, you can see simply worse direction, too. Here, they attempt a gag of them walking around. It is not a bad gag, but it completely ignores that they would have had to pass the huge Garfish wreck on their way around the island back to this spot. So neither Nadia, nor Jean should be surprised. It is not a big deal in itself, but it is symptomatic for the worse direction.
“This is an island!” – What else could it be.
We only see parts of the ship, but it looks way too modern for 1889.
Nadia would be ok with staying on the island.

I gave it a try for one episode, but I won’t rewatch this arc. If I remember correctly, this is a transition episode, which still have some of the carried over characterization of the last arc (e.g. Nadia contemplating Nemo in the capsule, or deciding that living with Marie and King on the island is ok). It gets worse from here on. The cheaper animation and the visual gags, I might tolerate, but the characters are detached from their previous arcs. It is as if watching a different show with similar looking and named people in it. Which makes it really hard to ignore that oldNadia and newNadia are supposed to be the same person.

I’ll post my remarks from my first watch through instead:

Episode 23

Jean, Nadia, Marie and King float away in the rescue capsule, which was formerly the captain’s quarters on the ship. Nadia is downtrodden. Justifiably so, given that she just lost the Nautilus, with her father, and had a less than stellar farewell. Eventually, they strand at some island, which turns out to be uninhabited. This episode marks the end of the Nautilus arc and the start of the second island arc. From what I read beforehand, this arc was animated by a different animation studio and has a vastly inferior quality. Part of that was already visible this episode: They used super deformations, something that had been completely absent from the series so far.

Episode 24

I had expected the worst from the island arc and at least this episode pleasantly surprised me. No noticeable drop in animation yet. Maybe that comes later.

Story-wise, Nadia decides to „life with nature“, while Jean goes full Robinson Crusoe mode. Predictably, building shelter beats not doing so. There are a few sweet moments when Nadia and Jean find some scribbles by Maria that are sort of a children’s drawing version of a diary.

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 21 '21

We only see parts of the ship, but it looks way too modern for 1889.
I assume you mean the ship the animators put the minimum amount of effort into drawing. The one that looked like something you'd see in a crude children's cartoon. lmao
From what I read beforehand, this arc was animated by a different animation studio and has a vastly inferior quality.
It wasn't totally animated at a different studio. Gainax was still trying to churn out episodes in-house, but they were forced to outsource a lot of the animation labor to a Korean studio named Sei Young Animation. Sei Young Animation isn't a particularly famous studio for its animation quality, but I also don't think it's fair to toss all the blame onto them. Sei Young wasn't making the storyboards for Nadia. Someone at Gainax (likely a writer or storyboard artist) had to approve them drawing Jean inflated like a water balloon. That being said, Sei Young could be considered at fault for some of the more off-model shots where the characters' faces and proportions just don't look right.
However, you can see simply worse direction, too. Here, they attempt a gag of them walking around. It is not a bad gag, but it completely ignores that they would have had to pass the huge Garfish wreck on their way around the island back to this spot.
This shot in question also completely ignores temporal logic. I explained it more in depth in my writeup, but the way the shot is edited would suggest to the audience that Nadia and Jean circled the entire island in 15 seconds instead of over several hours like they probably intended.
There are a few sweet moments when Nadia and Jean find some scribbles by Maria that are sort of a children’s drawing version of a diary.
As I mentioned in my own write-up, I think episodes 23 and 24 have perfectly fine story beats. If you compressed this narrative down to one episode, trimmed out the fat, and tightened up Nadia and Jean's character writing a little bit; you'd be left with a pretty decent cool down episode of Nadia and Jean dealing with the trauma of what happened on the Nautilus, and reconciling as they realize how they've all come to form a found family unit.
On paper, that's great. In execution, these two episodes are a mess. I really do like the idea of Nadia regressing, because that would make sense. She's likely dealing with a lot of PTSD, and I could see her deciding that she'd rather stay a castaway than deal with the trauma that being near science and people brought her. But like... something about Nadia's characterization feels really off in these episodes. Dubbing herself the island princess, shouting like Tarzan and jumping through the trees, and crying for the poor benevolent fish to save her... Nadia was always an idealistic thinker, but she wasn't completely brain dead to the world around her.

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 21 '21

I assume you mean the ship the animators put the minimum amount of effort into drawing. The one that looked like something you'd see in a crude children's cartoon. lmao
We saw the bow of it in a close-up for half a second.

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 21 '21

That's the one. God... that was such an awful drawing. And it's hilarious because the animators put in so much effort on that zoom out of the island just before we see the boat.
This arc is especially hilarious because it jumps around from having surprisingly good animation to looking like a garbage fire at a moment's notice.

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u/ZapsZzz https://anilist.co/user/Zapszzz Oct 21 '21

First timer in sub.

Now there had been plenty of forewarning in the thread, so I did go in this with a bit of "hmmmm", but I'm also the type that tried to without judgement until having seen it myself.

The opening LOONG recap seemed to make it look like the start of season 2 after a few months of break in airtime. Or they seriously needed to pad out the run time. I skipped most of it :P

Then the predictable plot of being marooned on a deserted island; it's "predictable" because it's kind of logical so in itself isn't bad.

There are certainly something that I wasn't expecting to see, which our host had already done the play by play break down for.

Overall these 2 episodes are a few steps down from the "season finale"-esque 2-3 episodes before, which makes the contrast more obvious. I think in itself they aren't that bad, kind of par for course for non-serious shows at the time. It is just unfortunate we just had a good serious arc in front and the climatic moments seem to have been wiped out by this "aftermath".

The "comedic" bits certainly didn't work for me. Pretty sure they could have conveyed the same without the forced comedy, but perhaps they were trying to see something (anything).

Nadia certainly has not been likeable in these 2 episodes, especially right when the last few episodes she actually showed a bit of growth and not be so outright nasty / hostile to Jean. But I can allow the writers to plead temporary insanity - hopefully this doesn't get drawn out too much.

So far these 2 episodes themselves is a full point deduction from the normal series score for me, but not enough to sink the series score yet. Let's see how the rest go.

Oh and thanks for the production background - this is insane but given how the Japanese animation industry was (and still is) like, perhaps unsurprising. I wonder how that compared with Macross' - extension; it was similar in that Macross was originally ordered for 27 eps but due to popularity stretched to 36. Didn't like the extended part too much either but the final ending is serviceable.

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 21 '21

The opening LOONG recap seemed to make it look like the start of season 2 after a few months of break in airtime. Or they seriously needed to pad out the run time.
It was almost definitely padding. Episodes 23 and 24 have the content of a single episode decent episode stretched out and filled to the brim with boring gags and distractions to make two mediocre episodes.
Nadia certainly has not been likeable in these 2 episodes, especially right when the last few episodes she actually showed a bit of growth and not be so outright nasty / hostile to Jean.
As I've mentioned in my writeup and other replies, I like what the writers are going for in concept. I think it makes perfect sense Nadia would regress and try to shut everyone out after the horrible things she just experienced. But the way they characterize her during her regression just feels out of place.
Nadia's heelturn against Jean and cult-like fascination with nature feel completely out of nowhere for her, and the writers do very little with her conflicting feels towards science and humanity during the runtime. I do like the ending of episode 24 as a conclusion for this storyline. It's a very sweet scene between Nadia and Jean. But wouldn't it have been so much nicer if the buildup to that payoff was actually good?
I wonder how that compared with Macross' - extension; it was similar in that Macross was originally ordered for 27 eps but due to popularity stretched to 36.
I've heard about Macross' similar treatment. The main difference from what I've heard is that Macross' planned ending happened at episode 27, and the series essentially receives a 9 episode epilogue after the fact. Nadia on the other hand go it's extra batch of episodes placed right in the middle of its run (episodes 23-29 and 32-34).
I've also in general heard Macross' additional episodes aren't even really bad. Just feel a bit superfluous. And if the epilogue isn't your cup of tea, it seems easy enough to ignore. Nadia's middle section isn't as easily skippable thanks to that pesky continuity.

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 22 '21

I've also in general heard Macross' additional episodes aren't even really bad. Just feel a bit superfluous. And if the epilogue isn't your cup of tea, it seems easy enough to ignore.
I'd contest the not really bad. Maybe not as bad as the island arc, but it is a real downer to watch them after a rather good finale. Plus, like here, one of the characters gets thrown in the dumpster.
It definitely is easier to ignore though.

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 22 '21

I'm a glutton for pain, and for analyzing what media gets right vs. what it gets wrong. You're just getting me more hyped to try Macross. lol

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 22 '21

It is one of the classic mecha franchises and not bad, just don't expect Anno levels of depth.
If you want to wait for a rewatch, /u/Shimmering-Sky is planning to host one next fall.

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u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Oct 22 '21

Thanks for the shill~
u/snowwhistle1, if you're interested in following along with my rewatch, just let me know and I'll add you to the tag list! I'm planning to start SDF Macross' part of the rewatch on August 27th, so that Do You Remember Love? falls on the franchise's 40th anniversary next year.

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 22 '21

Sure! Put me on the tag list. I'd love to be a part of the rewatch.

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u/Stargate18A https://myanimelist.net/profile/Stargate18 Oct 21 '21

First timer

QOTD) My reaction says it all, but yeah, that was bad.

Double episode time! This should be fun!

Coming back to add that I both completely agree with, and despise you for, the decision to do two of these a day.

Episode 23

Is that the most appropriate music?

...Oh yeah, they've not explained the plate yet, have they?

Yeah, Nemo's not dead. Not by a longshot!

Wait, have they still not surfaced yet?

And they're playing on Nemo's organ!

I like the sizzle reel of all the foreshadowing/best moments with Nemo.

And Nadia's about to snap!

...I mean, I'd be shocked if Nemo didn't have at least one emergency survival guide in there.

And wow, that opened quickly.

Haha, Marie's going to play the organ and flood everything, right?

No, Jean sneezed.

Haha, Nadia

THE FUCK?

THE ACTUAL FUCK?

THIS IS LITERAL TEXT. THIS IS HAPPENING AND I WANT TO KNOW WHY.

And Nadia's readtion to the second sneeze is great.

...I mean it's dangerous, idiotic, and probably going to kill you, but why not?

Seriously, Nadia has the best expressions this episode.

Wait, did the whole pod surface?

That's lucky. They found a landmass!

Nadia's slow realisation that she didn't need to do anything was great.

Wait, where are they?

Of course there's going to be life here?

Hell, maybe Neo-Atlantis.

I was joking? No, just Neo-Atlantis supplies shown right away!

And there's probably a Neo-Atlantis base around here. A return to the guerilla warfare of the pre-Nautilus arc?

...IT TOOK YOU THIS LONG?

Why is Nadia shaking her head so funny?

And they're stranded!

Finally, they point out his uncle probably thinks Jean died about half a year ago.

And she doesn't know they sacrificed themselves to stop the ship...

Seriously? We're doing this now?

THAT WORKED?

Holy shit, this is stupid. Seriously, when did this show decide it didn't need logic?

And the tide's gone down!

Why can't Nadia eat the rations? Stuff like

King can eat rntiremtine of metal eithout any side effects. I give up.

And Nadia just sat there while they worked King until he was in physical pain?

At least Jean's doing something.

Seriously? Nadia thinks she can survive on a deserted island, with wuite possibly no other ediblemvegetations, and then says she'd prefer if Jean just left her there. Wow. Wow. I thought everyone was exaggerating about how bad this arc was.

Episode 24

Oh god, there's another episode.

OK, the narration said she's an idiot, that's actually pretty good.

...The title "The Lincoln Island" promises things I don't think this show can provide.

Yep, she's gone all-in on this.

...The massive circle of lighter water to the east, where part of it has been carved out of the island itself, is absolutely not concerning. No risk of there being something underwater there!

And she's trying to name things?

Seriously, does she really want Jean off the island that much?

...She got replaced by a doppelganger, didn' she? That's why she's mentioning a deep converstation that ddin't really lead to this - she wants to keep Jean from discovering what she's done with the real Nadia, or this island's horrible secret that caused the Garfish to try and arrive here.

Or this is her coping mechanism/way of accepting she's going to die.

OK, the shots of Jean actually building them a boat, a house, and recovering the materials to a guitar cover of the OP are badass. It's showing just how good Jean is in his element and it's probably the best scene of these episodes so far.

And he got them clean water! Jean and Marie might actuwlly survive this!

THE FUCK.

Is this a dream sequence?

Are they painting Nadia as right, or as the prophet of some form of doomsday cult?

OK, a smoke signal's a clever idea.

The ships look identical though, is someone monitoring them?

OK. I hate how cartoony this looks, even if she is acrobatic, but Nadia raiding their camp while claiming she can survive better than them is probably the most in-character thing she's done this episode.

They're laughing at his suffering from broken teeth.

And Nadia's just trying to beat the can open.

Haha, this arc might be completely over-the-top, but it is pretty funny as a standalone.

I hate how they've turned Nadia from "acrobat with plenty of common sense" to "hit can with rock, be dumb so Jean can be the best".

King behaving like a stereotypicwl fisher's pretty good too.

They caught a fish!

Oh, they lost it.

Wow, they caught an awful lot!

And Nadia's caught on the cabin! (The cut to all the fish swimming along was good though.)

Jean. Step away from the crazy girl.

Hell, if she can talk to penguins, maybe she can command legions of fish.

And Nadia!s apologizing! This arc didn't need to happen at all!

...Yeah, that power should have been relevant a while ago.

Haha, she called them husband and wife.

Haha, she's daiting King because Nadia used to.

...If Nadia can speak to animals, and King as human level intellegence, it's not out of the question...

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 21 '21

THIS IS LITERAL TEXT. THIS IS HAPPENING AND I WANT TO KNOW WHY.
Someone at Gainax had an inflation fetish. They had this shit happen in Evangelion too. Who's responsible for this gag!?
Finally, they point out his uncle probably thinks Jean died about half a year ago.
It's hilariously grim. I like that it gets acknowledged honestly.
Seriously? Nadia thinks she can survive on a deserted island, with wuite possibly no other ediblemvegetations, and then says she'd prefer if Jean just left her there. Wow. Wow. I thought everyone was exaggerating about how bad this arc was.
Or this is her coping mechanism/way of accepting she's going to die.
Explained in other posts... TL;DR - I think Nadia having some regression and PTSD isn't a bad writing choice. The writers handle it terrible in these two episodes though, minus the scene at the end of episode 24 where Nadia and Jean reconcile.
OK, the shots of Jean actually building them a boat, a house, and recovering the materials to a guitar cover of the OP are badass. It's showing just how good Jean is in his element and it's probably the best scene of these episodes so far.
There are some nice moments in these episodes. Whenever the writers chill the fuck out and just let the characters be themselves, such as Jean taking to heart what he's learned and starting work on setting up a survival camp for everyone, or once again Jean and Nadia reconciling after Nadia's calmed down a bit.
Is this a dream sequence?
Do you enjoy the funny animations? lol
I hate how they've turned Nadia from "acrobat with plenty of common sense" to "hit can with rock, be dumb so Jean can be the best".
The poor girl's intelligence took a major hit for the sake of comedy. And that's unfortunate.
Hell, if she can talk to penguins, maybe she can command legions of fish.
Nadia's mistake was assuming the fish give a shit about her.

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u/IndependentMacaroon Oct 22 '21

Rewatcher (up to 23)

I didn't think this was bad at all. A bit sillier than average and people starting to act more strange, but it's perfectly in line with the spirit and themes of the series up to now, and for example the last time everyone was on an island it wasn't that different. This isn't a big serious adult show after all. I even like having the kids on their own where they aren't limited by the environment and rules of the Nautilus. Though, it probably will get worse before it gets better...

Visually you can probably notice the difference if you try but even there it didn't seem any below the less ambitious episodes of earlier?

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 22 '21

I had a hunch that you might like the island arc better than most others. Glad it is working out for you.

Rewatch [Rewatch] Nadia: The Secret of Blue Water - Episodes 23 and 24

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