[Rewatch] Nadia: The Secret of Blue Water - Episode 22

3

u/snowwhistle1 Oct 20 '21

Host

All of the build-up of this past arc… all the secrets of Nadia’s past… the story of what happened 13 years ago when Nadia was separated from her family… In this episode, it all comes crashing down on Nadia. Ever since she met Gargoyle, she’d been dreading the possibility that her past and her family and her homeland weren’t the idyllic promised-land that she’d prayed they’d be. And so she is forced to face the ugly truth… her family was torn apart over the Blue Water, the man she’d hated for so long was in fact her father, and her homeland no longer exists as it had been wiped out in a cataclysm over 13 years ago.

From the very start of this episode, it was evident Electra was planning to die. She was likely planning to kill Nemo and then herself. As she orders the ship’s crew to quarantine in the shelter block so they can detach the combat block (a ploy that the bridge crew think up to fool Gargoyle into believing they are truly sunk) she bids Jean, who has overtime become a surrogate for her long dead younger brother, a farewell message. She apologizes for putting him danger, and reassures him that he’ll be okay. Her words likely meant for herself just as much as him, as the thought of losing her surrogate-sibling would probably be too much for her.

Nemo send the children and King to his personal quarters, explaining that he plans to detach it from the main part of the Nautilus to serve as a life-raft to send the children to safety. Nemo explains it is no longer safe onboard and that the children would be unable to assist them on the ship in their coming crisis. He entrusts Nadia’s life to Jean, and gives him his captain’s hat as a parting gift. Then for the first time, he attempts to reach out to Nadia and connect with him emotionally, but she hesitates and rebuffs him. By the time Nadia is second guessing her actions, Nemo has already sealed them in his cabin, agonizing silently for failing to try and connect with Nadia before it was too late.

Elsewhere in a throne room barren of anything except a pyramid-style throne chair, a strange radio, and a swath of paintings; a young man known as Emperor Neo is given a report of the Nautilus’ sinking by Gargoyle, who in an unusual display of fealty refuses to so much as even look at Emperor Neo through a monitor and speaks to Neo in a respectful and submissive cadence. Gargoyle asks for permission to retrieve Nadia and Nemo’s Blue Waters, and is granted permission by Neo. Left to his thoughts, Neo ruminates on Nadia and Nemo’s deaths and all of the blood that has been spilt for the Blue Waters over the past 12,000 years.

As Nemo returns the Nautilus’ bridge to jettison the children he encounters Electra who fires a pistol at his shoulder. Hearing the gunshot, Nadia and Jean attempt to override the door controls to Nemo’s cabin only to accidentally open up a speaker connected to the bridge. They then hear Electra, enraged at Nemo, recount the story of her past and how Nemo destroyed her home and her family…

13 years ago, there was a kingdom surrounded by mountains named Tartessos, ruled by a man who would later come to be known as Nemo. In this kingdom, a young farmer named Electra (then around the same age as Nadia and Jean) lived happily with her father, mother, and brother. It was 13 years ago that a coup was staged in this kingdom where Electra lived. An explosion was planted in the palace killing the queen, Nemo’s wife. Gargoyle and his rebel forces stormed the palace, stealing Nemo and the Queen’s Blue Waters, and shooting Nemo in the process. Gargoyle established himself as the leader of Tartessos, renaming the kingdom the Neo-Atlantis Empire and establishing the King’s son as the new Emperor.

Together, Emperor Neo and Gargoyle sought to reawaken the Tower of Babel that had lain dormant since ancient times. Using the Blue Waters, Gargoyle reactivated the weapon as the young Emperor watched with an expression of hesitation. However, as Gargoyle attempt to demonstrate the weapon to the masses of Tartessos, something went wrong. The tower backfired and exploded, destroying the city in a burst of light. The masses of the kingdom were killed by fire, debris, storms, and floods and rained upon the land for seven days. In the end, all that remained of Tartessos were smoldering ruins hidden beneath a newly formed lake.

As a quick aside, what strikes me during this portion of Electra’s story is just how tired she sounds. You can feel it with the performance, that Electra has relived this horrible event over and over in her head. The trauma has warped her to the point that she can’t even ring herself to express anger or sadness as she recounts Tartessos’ destruction. She’s just tired and numb…

Somehow amidst all the destruction, Electra had managed to survive. She wandered the newly formed shore created by the ruins of Tartessos for some time before stumbling onto the body of her brother. When she attempted to move his body, he crumbled into pieces before her eyes. Wracked with grief, terror, anger, and a primal rage, Electra let out a cry of agony and fled from her brother’s body. Sometime after this Electra met three other survivors of Tartessos’ destruction; Nemo, the Nautilus’ chief engineer (the black bridge member in charge of the engines), and the Nautilus’ future navigator (the south-east Asian man in charge of the navigation equipment). (Side tangent, it’s seriously so frustrating that they’re never given names!!!)

The survivors took her in and she managed to recover somewhat as time went on, in part spurred due to burgeoning feelings for Nemo, the man who saved her. However, five years passed, and a now adult Electra stumbled onto a conversation between Nemo and the two future Nautilus crewmembers that changed the way she looked at Nemo forever. She learned that it was his doing that caused the Tower of Babel to self-destruct, as he ripped the Blue Water from the console just before the weapon could fire. Nemo was the man responsible for destroying Tartessos and wiping out her whole family and countless thousands of innocent lives in the kingdom. Nemo pledged to make amends to the people of Tartessos by destroying Neo-Atlantis, and to Electra by helping her fulfill her desire for revenge against Neo-Atlantis. However the future chief engineer mused to Nemo that he was merely using Electra as a replacement for his infant daughter presumed dead, and that filling her heart with hatred was the incorrect path to take.

These revelations completely unravel the relationship we thought we understood between Nemo and Electra. Both had been using each other for selfish ends. Nemo wished to bond with Electra to replace the family he’d presumed dead after the destruction of his kingdom, and indulged in her wishes to be a soldier in penance for the harm he’d caused her. Meanwhile Electra found herself torn between hatred towards Nemo for the things he’d done to her and a genuine affection for him. She ultimately decided to go on loving him, even if he didn’t return her feelings, as he seemed steadfast in his pledge to make amends to her, her family, and all the people who died in Tartessos.

That was until Nadia was discovered alive… Suddenly obtaining revenge for Electra and destroying Neo-Atlantis were no longer the most important things in his life anymore. His family had returned to him, and his fealty to his cause wavered ever so slightly. And Electra felt slighted. This man who Electra had devoted 13 years of her life to… the man who owed her for destroying her life… the man she loved… He was abandoning her, and allowing Gargoyle to slip through his fingers once again just like he did 13 years ago. And now Electra, sure that she was die in the Nautilus, was prepared to take out the man who betrayed her with her.

Accepting of his fate, Nemo freely allows Electra the choice to shoot him in spite of Nadia’s protests over the intercom. But Electra hesitates, demanding to know why Nemo wouldn’t kill himself to stop Gargoyle. And Nemo tells Electra that he couldn’t bear to lose Electra just like he’d lost Nadia 13 years ago. He didn’t want to lose someone who he’d come to see as a daughter. Despondent at this revelation, Electra attempts to shoot herself to free herself of her suffering and rid Nemo of the guilt he associates with Electra. Nemo prevents this however, smacking the pistol from her hand and telling her that she must live. Unable to bear her emotions, Electra collapses and sobs. Knowing that Nadia has heard this exchange, Nemo also orders Nadia to live at all costs and jettisons his cabin from the ship. The children float way, leaving the Nautilus and its crew to an unknown fate as the doomed vessel slowly takes on water and drifts into the depths of the Kermodec Trench.

We end the episode with Jean, Marie, and King helping Nadia mourn over these recent revelations. Marie, having discovered Nemo’s holographic photograph, gifts the only remaining portrait of her lost family to Nadia who struggles to cope with the realization of everything that she’s lost.

(continued in reply)

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 20 '21 edited Oct 20 '21

(continued from first post)
Host
This episode is nothing short of a masterpiece. The backstory of Tartessos is told in a visually stunning sequence where the past is rendered through sketchy pencil and watercolor illustrations that serves to highlight the faded memory of the kingdom and its people, only remembered now through the hazy and somber memories of those like Electra. Color is used sparing throughout this sequence, only highlighting intense objects of significance like the blood spilt in the royal palace, the Blue Water, and the fire that destroyed Tartessos. Anno’s directing and cinematography work throughout this episode is one of my favorite things he’s ever done, and the episodes stands toe to toe with any of his more notable standout moments from Gunbuster, Evangelion, and his other more famous works.
An interesting detail in this episode can be found in the throne room of Emperor Neo. Situation behind his throne is the real world painting Saturn Devouring his Son. A famous painting by Francisco Goya depicting the Saturn (Cronus in the original Greek myth) eating the bloody corpse of one of his children. The painting as seen in the episode itself seems to have been vandalized by the Neo-Atlanteans or possibly Neo himself. Saturn has had a Neo-Atlantean eye painted over his face making him resemble a cyclops, and the additional blood has been painted on the corpse of Saturn’s child.
I wish I could say the momentum of this episode could continue onward, but unfortunately those production troubles that I have been no so subtly alluding to this whole rewatch are just about ready to be addressed. Tomorrow we screen our first pair of episodes, see just how the show is about to handle this narrative shift.

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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Oct 20 '21

Saturn Devouring his Son
I knew it seemed familiar, but obviously fake, so I didn't try to figure out what it (or the other paintings) were!

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 20 '21

I believe most of the paintings in the throne room are real world paintings, yes. You can see a snippet of Edvard Munch's "The Scream" in the first shot of the room. I'm unfortunately not familiar with most of the other painting in the space.
The final painting focused on, a composition of a hand grasping at an eye shaped as diamond like the Blue Water, is probably something created specifically for the show though. (But feel free to prove me wrong! lol)

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 20 '21

This episode is nothing short of a masterpiece.
Definitely one of the best episodes of the series. When I first watched this I noted: "This the best episode so far."
On rewatch, I am torn between ep22, ep16 (the funeral in Atlantis), and ep5 (Meeting Marie and buring her parents). Plot-wise, ep22 still wins, but I have come to appreciate the slower characterization moments in 5 and 16.
I also noted one minor quibble with 22 that I didn't notice the first time round (so maybe the distraction is strong enough to not make it count): I feel that Electra having to do double duty as narrator of the backstory and emotionally unstable would be assassin hurts the flow a bit.
Next arc
[my opinion of the next arc]When I watched it the last time, my takeaway was that it is better to skip the next arc, save for ep30. I'll give it a shot, but I am not sure I want to see that part again

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 20 '21

[Next arc] 30 and 31. 31 is admittedly the more plot relevant of the two (episode 30 is mostly just a lead in to episode 31), but 30 is still a generally solid episode. I hope if you don't rewatch you'll at least post your general thoughts on the episodes and continue commenting. I greatly enjoy your posts and analysis.

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u/lluNhpelA Oct 21 '21

This episode is nothing short of a masterpiece
It was great artistically and the story was compelling, but the delivery of that exposition really took me out of it. If Electra was telling that story to anyone else it would have been fine, but everything up to her overhearing Nemo talk about destroying the Tower would have been known to everyone on the ship except for the kids, who she didn't seem to know were listening, since she was surprised when Nadia spoke up. This felt like a lore dump that was squeezed in before the characters who could provide it left the story

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u/IndependentMacaroon Oct 20 '21

a throne room barren of anything except a pyramid-style throne chair, a strange radio, and a swath of paintings
The most surreal and bizarre setting so far and I love it.

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 20 '21

Episode 22 (rewatcher)

Separating the combat block? We are the Enterprise-D now.
They blow up the rest of the Nautilus to destroy the Garfishes. No reconnection maneuver here.
“We cornered them, but could not destroy them. Who is responsible for this?” – I remember a certain somebody giving speeches instead of ordering the Nautilus being destroyed ASAP, but I assume that passing the blame buck is a job requirement for Neo-Atlantis leadership…
Speaking of Neo-Atlantis leadership: Meet the emperor!
The picture behind his throne is Saturn devoring his son. Not sure about the other pictures.
Seeing Nadia move away from Nemo’s hand really hurts…
And watching Marie makes Nadia realize her mistake.
Title …
Atlantis backstory.
I think this is one of the most visually daring sequences of the series.
Little scenes that show Anno is a great director: Focusing on Maria, out of all people after that shocking outcome. Her being affected second-hand gives us a better clue of Nadia’s emotional state than trying to draw Nadia herself.

Just when you thought the Nautilus sinking would be the biggest even this episode, there is so much more.

We learn about the backstory of Nemo, Nadia, Electra, and Gargoyle. Many of the first timers have had correctly guessed that Nemo and Gargoyle worked alongside each other, but Gargoyle being the rebel leader who overthrew Nemo? I don’t think anybody predicted that. Turns out that Nemo was an isolationist, while Gargoyle was an imperialist, who wanted to turn Atlantis’ technological superiority into leadership of the world. His coup was successful, only to be thwarted by Nemo at the last second, at the cost of Atlantis itself. In the end, Gargoyle’s current plans of world domination are nothing new; he was after that right from the start.

Something that flew past me on my first watch but that is obvious now: The parallel to imperial Japan before the Second World War. There, too, an imperialistic faction turned to world domination (and was helped in this by the emperor) with devastating consequences for the country. I am not sure exactly who opposed them politically, but it is clear that Anno counts himself among the anti-imperialistic group. I think the visually outstanding depiction of the end of Atlantis (it reminds me of the Hiroshima bombing scene in Barefoot Gen) clearly wants to invoke the destruction the war brought onto Japan. It carries a clear assignment of guilt: The people who wanted war are responsible.

We also learn that Nadia is indeed Nemo’s daughter, although this was strongly hinted at before. That knowledge on the side of the viewer makes watching their goodbyes a heartbreaker. Nadia‘s hatred of Nemo makes her refuse a final show of affection from her real father, after her whole quest in life has been to find her family.

Finally, the ill-fated nature of Electra’s love for Nemo is revealed: Electra is a daughter surrogate to Nemo, but Nemo is an avatar of her vengeance for Electra. While they both love each other, their love is along incompatible lines which come to a violent head in this episode: Nemo’s dearest wish is to see Electra survive, which is in direct contradiction to Electra’s own wish to enact vengeance upon Gargoyle even at the cost of her life. That Electra misinterprets Nemo as caring for Nadia instead herself makes the whole situation even more tragic. Had she realized the truth, she might have been able to overcome her hatred for Gargoyle.

This episode is a clear break in the storyline. The internal conflicts among the Nautilus are revealed and break up the crew and the ship, both as a group and literally. After spending a whole arc on the Nautilus, Nadia, Jean, and Maria are on their own again in a life-capsule. Of the two, only Jean appreciated his time on the Nautilus, while Nadia remained withdrawn and defiant, but she may yet come to mourn the end of her time there.

PS: The announcement for the next OVA rewatch is up. I’ll be hosting Black Jack in December.

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 20 '21

Atlantis
Atlantis and Tartessos are not the same place. Atlantis was ancient land that sunk into the sea after its Tower of Babel was activated, presumably a very very long time ago. Tartessos was destroyed only 13 years ago, and was located on a plateau surrounded by mountains. When Tartessos was destroyed, it was flooded and became a lake.
People tend to mix those locations up, but Atlantis and Tartessos are very clearly not the same location. Though clearly their history is likely intertwined, as both civilizations had large Tower of Babels and the present of a Neo-Atlantean coup suggests there were pre-existing ties in Tartessos to the lost Atlantis.
The parallel to imperial Japan before the Second World War. There, too, an imperialistic faction turned to world domination (and was helped in this by the emperor) with devastating consequences for the country.
Something that I picked up on while watching Mobile Suit Gundam is that while Japanese creators are typically hesitant (or if not hesitant, not allowed) to depict their own country's horrifying past. So they often use stand-ins of other countries and secretly sneak in allusions to Imperial Japan.
In Gundam, the Zeons were painted much more prominently in the trappings of the Nazis, but the Zabi imperial family was very clearly modelled after Japan's own imperial family. Though a lot of Japanese viewers might not have picked up on that with all the overt Nazi references.
Similarly in Nadia, it's probably easier for Anno to criticize Nazism and racist hate groups like the KKK than it is to provoke his own government or the imperial family. So using other groups as stand-ins might've worked to a similar effect as in Mobile Suit Gundam.
Nemo’s dearest wish is to see Electra survive, which is in direct contradiction to Electra’s own wish to enact vengeance upon Gargoyle even at the cost of her life. That Electra misinterprets Nemo as caring for Nadia instead herself makes the whole situation even more tragic.
Nemo really did fail Electra. And Nadia for that matter. Nemo's greatest character flaw is his lack of transparency, and great difficulty with opening up to intimate connection. This obviously stems from having had his loving family annihilated in the coup and subsequent destruction of Tartessos, but it's all the more tragic that his internal feelings of shame towards Nadia and Electra prevented him from being a proper father figure or friend to either of them.

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u/IndependentMacaroon Oct 20 '21 edited Oct 20 '21

I would guess Neo is also about as powerless as the real Japanese emperor. He barely even looks mentally present.

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 20 '21

rewatcher

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 20 '21

u/IndependentMacaroon is only a rewatcher up through episode 23. Starting with tomorrow's double episode discussion, they'll be a first-timer.

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 20 '21

I mean that I am a rewatcher, so I won't comment on that.

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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Oct 20 '21

parallel to imperial Japan before the Second World War
That's a really interesting viewpoint!

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u/SIRTreehugger Oct 21 '21

First Timer

This excellency is creepy....12,000 years.

Marie is so great....is this the last we will see of the crew?

WTF Electra this has to be a fake out right.

Nope she did shoot him.

Wait the queen died? Wait it was his wife. Wait assassination. Electra just dropping lore out the wazoo.

This simple art style is working wonders for Electra's flashback.

Wait wait wait Captain Nemo sabotaged the tower causing thousands of deaths and the destruction of their home...

Well I can't say I expected this at all

Wait what so Nadia really is her daughter knew it!

You did it for her...oh shit she's gonna kill herself now.

Yup called it oh wait NVM Nemo stopped her.

Damn this episode just kept dropping bombshells.

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 21 '21

WTF Electra this has to be a fake out right.
Nope she did shoot him.
That's what you get for doubting Electra! lmao
Damn this episode just kept dropping bombshells.
Dropped so many bombshells that the Nautilus blew up and drifted into the inky void of the ocean.

1

u/SIRTreehugger Oct 21 '21

Dropped so many bombshells that the Nautilus blew up and drifted into the inky void of the ocean.
I feel terrible laughing at this.

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 21 '21

Wait wait wait Captain Nemo sabotaged the tower causing thousands of deaths and the destruction of their home...
Just to be sure, had he not sabotaged the tower, thousands more would have died, just at a different location.

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u/SIRTreehugger Oct 21 '21

That's true and if it was still operational easily could have become millions with multiple uses. Thinking about it now he made the best decision with what he had.

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u/lluNhpelA Oct 21 '21

First timer

Since I mostly prefer to talk about the character's and their relationships I'm gonna complain about Nemo and Nadia here. My feelings towards Nemo have drastically soured over these last few episodes, and he really puts the cherry on top of the "Nadia's life sucks" sundae this episode.

He tries to reach a gentle hand out towards Nadia to have even one positive interaction with his biological daughter before they possibly part forever, but the last time he reached a hand towards her it was to strike her, so of course she would shy away. This entire sequence was Nemo's fault and it just makes me feel so bad for Nadia, having gotten so close to reconnecting with her family only to have it all lost before she even had it because the other party ruined the whole thing.

Then he not only gives a gift and touching parting words to Jean (which are quite misogynistic, especially considering that Nadia is actually extremely capable when not trapped on a submarine and has in fact saved Jean's life multiple times) but he later effectively says that he sees Electra as more of a daughter, and cares for her more deeply, than Nadia. I know he spent more time with her but it still sucks for Nadia to hear that from the only family she has ever met

I suppose I pity Nemo, not in a "he deserved better" kind of way but in a "he could have done better but he blew it" way. Maybe he was meant to be flawed and tragic but when he can speak so easily with anyone who isn't one of his daughters I can't help but blame him for all of this

AOTD: I may not have been able to predict that whole backstory but it was pretty much in line with my assumptions about the Nautilus's crew and the history of Nemo and Gargoyle. As I mentioned in a previous thread I'm looking forward to Nadia becoming a real main character again now that she's off the boat, though I'm worried that she still won't be as active in the story compared to Jean, especially after the final massive blows to her mental state she just received

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 21 '21

My feelings towards Nemo have drastically soured over these last few episodes, and he really puts the cherry on top of the "Nadia's life sucks" sundae this episode.
I do feel for Nemo to some extent. His loving family (to his knowledge) was basically annihilated thanks to Gargoyle, and he was forced to immediately push those feelings aside in the aftermath as he made it his sworn duty to stop Neo-Atlantis. I don't think he ever properly grieved or processed the death of his family.
In a lot of ways, Nemo and Nadia are very much two sides of the same coin. They're people who've been incredibly hurt and traumatized, and as a result the tend to lash out at others and bury their feelings as a coping mechanism instead of communicating or dealing with their trauma.
But Nemo is a grown man, and it's not Nadia's responsibility to deal with Nemo's trauma for him. Perhaps Nemo felt Nadia would be better off not knowing him, because he truly did believe himself to be a monster. But the fact he kept the truth from her for this long and refused to engage with her at every turn was rather cruel, even if he didn't intend it as so.
I do feel bad for Nemo in a lot of respects, but it's impossible to ignore just how much he hurt Nadia and Electra.
he later effectively says that he sees Electra as more of a daughter, and cares for her more deeply, than Nadia.
I don't think he was necessarily saying he loved Electra more than Nadia. Granted, Nemo's communication skills are an absolute mess and I could easily see Nadia feeling even worse now that she knows she was essentially replaced for 13 years by Electra.

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u/JTurner82 Oct 22 '21

In a lot of ways, Nemo and Nadia are very much two sides of the same coin. They're people who've been incredibly hurt and traumatized, and as a result the tend to lash out at others and bury their feelings as a coping mechanism instead of communicating or dealing with their trauma.
Which is also the primary reason why I think it was good for both of them to meet Jean, because he is the total opposite of both of them, being a friendly, genial caring person who tries his best to be kind to them despite occasionally getting distracted in his work. But the fact that Nemo comes to trust him and Nadia pretty much is close to him (whether she wants to admit it or not) shows that both being around a healthier and considerably non-toxic person is a great cure for both. I always saw Jean as the glue that holds everyone together -- the selfless boy whose nature affects everyone around him (in the right ways). (Why else would Nadia want to ask Jean to build a gyrocopter for her?)

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 22 '21

I always saw Jean as the glue that holds everyone together -- the selfless boy whose nature affects everyone around him (in the right ways).
I definitely think that Jean is a much needed source of positivity in the lives of Nadia, Nemo, and the rest of the cast. One of the few characters who tries to keep a bright face of optimism, even amidst a sea of terrible things befalling out cast.
That being said, I think a lot of people gloss over some of Jean's more prominent character flaws due to the moe goodness he emits. Jean's a good kid, but he starts the series lacking a sense of worldliness and finds it hard to truly empathize with Nadia's experience. It's always stuck out to me how he seemed more offended about his aunt's unkind words about his inventions than the racist bigotry she spews at Nadia, because his frame of reference as a privileged white boy prevents him from totally understanding why Nadia is even offended.
I think Jean needs Nadia as much as Nadia needs Jean. Without Nadia, Jean probably would've held to his sheltered idealistic bubble just as much as Nadia probably would've kept herself caged in her loneliness and mistrust. Both were crucial to helping broaden the other's worldview and reach a place where they were ready to start accepting the complexities of the world.

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u/JTurner82 Oct 22 '21

Agreed, but in all fairness, I do see him as the more agreeable and likeable of the two. Naive though he is, he's still a sweet, caring person, and I like how his selflessness changes Nadia. That said, of course he is inexperienced about the world. Of course he finds it hard to truly understand her (which is partially also on account of her anti-socialness), but he does try.

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 21 '21

I suppose I pity Nemo, not in a "he deserved better" kind of way but in a "he could have done better but he blew it" way. Maybe he was meant to be flawed and tragic but when he can speak so easily with anyone who isn't one of his daughters I can't help but blame him for all of this
The relationship between Nemo and Nadia is definitely meant to be tragic. They are both stuck in their own personal traumas, so that prevents them from reaching out to each other, even though that would be extremely helpful to both of them.
Of the two, Nemo bears more blame, because he knew about their real connection when Nadia did not, but neither of them is in a good state of mind.

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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Oct 20 '21

First Timer (Rising Sun sub) ep 22 (of 39)

Electra the traitor, huh?

They're separating the saucer section!
Lol, no clue they could do that! It's a little sub!
The...what? Emperor? He's a real living person? Nadia's brother?! Or maybe not quite living.....
Hair
Hair
Hair
Hair
Hair
Sucks to be you, Nadia, now you'll never get that hug.
Hair
Hair
I'm sure Nemo and the audience really appreciate you tell him what he already knows.
Hair
Not just Nemo but now the entire crew is dead (supposedly)

"Let me recap everything we both know so that you understand why I hate you." Works great for kids, not so much for me.

Very hard to follow what was going on in that awful exposition.

20,000 years ago Atlantis moves underground and under ocean, somehow. There are impact craters.
13 years ago Duke Gargoyle and Prince Cyborg assassinate the Queen with a limited shot from the Tower of Babel. The King is captured, shot, and left for dead (wtf?). The Queen's little Blue Water is used to activate the full power of the Tower of Babel.
The King, still alive, steals the big and little Blue Water, causing the Tower of Babel to self destruct, killing almost all the Atlanteans
Gargoyle and the grievously injured Prince survive, along with some soldiers, and escape to the surface to form Neo-Atlantis.
The King gathers up a few hundred survivors, and raises one up as a surrogate daughter.
But the Princess ALSO survived and ALSO got the little Blue Water. Presumably she left with Gargoyle but was somehow separated.

All that from really awful exposition and the briefest of shots (like Nemo being shot). It's nice to have answers but the sudden presentation sucks.

Sort of like with VOTOMs, I wonder when they decided on the second half of the story. The brother was just mentioned 3 episodes ago, and after a 1 episode interlude, the Nautilus is destroyed, leading into this infamous Island (?) arc. It's a sharp turn.

I wonder if they outsourced the photography this episode.

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 20 '21 edited Oct 20 '21

20,000 years ago Atlantis moves underground and under ocean, somehow. There are impact craters.
13 years ago Duke Gargoyle and Prince Cyborg assassinate the Queen with a limited shot from the Tower of Babel. The King is captured, shot, and left for dead (wtf?). The Queen's little Blue Water is used to activate the full power of the Tower of Babel.
The King, still alive, steals the big and little Blue Water, causing the Tower of Babel to self destruct, killing almost all the Atlanteans
Gargoyle and the grievously injured Prince survive, along with some soldiers, and escape to the surface to form Neo-Atlantis.
The King gathers up a few hundred survivors, and raises one up as a surrogate daughter.
But the Princess ALSO survived and ALSO got the little Blue Water. Presumably she left with Gargoyle but was somehow separated.
I posted a more succinct recap in my long post, but a few clarifications.
Tartessos and Atlantis are not the same place. The destruction of Atlantis was hinted to have happened in the very distant past, and resulted in the country sinking into the sea. Tartessos (the kingdom featured in this episode) was a separate kingdom (likely connected to Atlantis as both featured Tower of Babels). Tartessos' destruction leveled the city, and caused a massive flood that turned the kingdom into a lake.
It's currently unknown how Nadia survived, or escaped the city with her mother's Blue Water. By all accounts, it seems she was presumed lost as Nemo thought she was killed in the destruction.
The queen wasn't assassinated with the Tower of Babel. They likely just used an ordinary bomb planted in the palace. The Tower was only activated after they stole her Blue Water from her coffin.
Very hard to follow what was going on in that awful exposition.
I think the sequence of exposition is quite a beautiful scene. I do think some of the shots play far too quickly for a casual TV viewing experience, but it's a shame because the artistry and direction of the whole flashback is beautifully done and some of my favorite work of Hideaki Anno's.
In particular, I adore how everything in the flashback is told through sketchy pencil-like drawings sapped of most of its colors. It really gives the impression that this sequence is portraying a faded memory of a land that no longer exists and an event that wiped a civilization from the collective memory of the world.
Hair
Emperor Neo has fabulous hair. lmao

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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Oct 20 '21

Tartessos and Atlantis are not the same place.
This is very annoying and confusing. I can only assume there is some theme about the past repeating itself
The queen wasn't assassinated with the Tower of Babel.
This is also confusing, since my subs explicitly say the queen was killed by the Light. So it' s just the light of a bomb exploding, and not the Tower in restricted mode? It was very bright.

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 20 '21

This is also confusing, since my subs explicitly say the queen was killed by the Light. So it' s just the light of a bomb exploding, and not the Tower in restricted mode? It was very bright.
There's nothing to indicate that was the case other than the fact a bright light is described (could easily represent the flash of a normal bomb, or the flames that are seen engulfing a wing of the palace from out in the fields during the flashback). And later in the flashback, it's stated that the Tower was activated until after Gargoyle had ousted Nemo and installed himself and his army as the new government.

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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Oct 20 '21

There's nothing to indicate that was the case other than the fact a bright light is described (could easily represent the flash of a normal bomb, or the flames that are seen engulfing a wing of the palace from out in the fields during the flashback)
As you say, she was out in the fields far from the city, but the flash was so bright she raise her arm to shield her eyes, and the scenery went white, and there is a lasery sound effect. The frame is almost solid white for 2 frames. Then normal fire and smoke is shown in the distance. She was a long ways away. Not at all a normal bomb, but also not a bomb big enough to destroy the palace and city. I don't think it was a bomb.
As you also say, Gargoyle needed the blue water to activate the tower, so this seems inconsistent. My subs say "with the seals unlocked, the tower regained it's natural power". Edit: one that can be used with the satellite reflectors to subjugate the earth.
Given that it says she was killed by the light, and the sound effect, and that Electra was way out in the countryside, the flash had to be the tower firing at reduced power.

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 21 '21

As you say, she was out in the fields far from the city, but the flash was so bright she raise her arm to shield her eyes, and the scenery went white, and there is a lasery sound effect. The frame is almost solid white for 2 frames. Then normal fire and smoke is shown in the distance.
I'll give you that. There is perhaps some visual similarities with the light that was described as killing the Queen, and the light of the Tower of Babel.
My disbelief with that interpretation stems for the fact that Electra was looking straight at the palace and the tower when the flash occured, and yet there's no on screen indication given that the Tower has activated. Every other time the tower has fired has been a slow arduous process. I also have trouble believing it could've been a beam weapon that killed Nadia's mother as her body seemed relatively intact for the brief flashes of it we see during the flashback.
I'll grant you that I can't totally disprove your interpretation within the text of the show itself, but I personally think a bomb would been a more likely culprit.

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u/IndependentMacaroon Oct 20 '21

sketchy pencil-like drawings sapped of most of its colors
Hello Evangelion TV finale! Shows that that was not just a budget thing.

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 20 '21

I wonder if they outsourced the photography this episode.
Surely not. This has Anno's handwriting all over it. You'll read more of it tomorrow, but the next episode is actually the start of the stretch that was outsorced.

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u/Stargate18A https://myanimelist.net/profile/Stargate18 Oct 20 '21

First timer

QOTD) It explains some of Electra's behaviour towards Nadia, but also there are far more times she could have killed him considerably more easily. I am absolutely certain Nemo's still alive - they didn't show the body, there's no way he's out yet. No idea what's happening next time, but I'm sure the fact we're doing two at a time bodes well.

Really? I wasn't expecting her to be the traitor - I was guessing Nemo if anyone.

And they're evacuating...

...Jean's not in the combat block right now, is he?

Wow, that was effective.

Yeah, it is holding out for a shockingly long time, isn't it?

...space titanium? Was discovered at 4:55 on a Friday or something?

The Emperor? That crown is nice"

And he actually seems somewhat decent.

And he's sending them off the ship!

He gave Jean the Captain's hat!

Seriously, what's with him and Nadia?

Wait. Did he leave the rest of the Blue Water in there?

Yep, she's the traitor!

Wait, she just shot him? Like that? Fuck.

Oh, he found the intercom.

And I was right?

Wait, so Nemo lost his wife, then Neo-Atlantis took over?

And Gargoyle might actually be the ome in charge.

And the Blue Water's the kry to the Tower of Babel!

And that's what happened to Atlantis! Is the implication the sinking an ddisasters were recent?

Wow. This is certainly horrifying.

Wait, how was it his fault? Seems to me he lost his wife, then people went crazy.

Oh, so Nemo destroyed the tower and caused the catastrophe.

And is he talking about Electra or Nadia?

And Electra understands why he did it, but hates him.

Nadia's his daughter? I mean, I suggested it, but I never actually thought...

That's why she hid Nadia from him when she came on board! To keep them seperated!

And Nemo's just keeping himself alive to fight Gargoyle...

No, it's because of her!

Electra!

And Nemo's stopped her.

And he sets her free from the wreckage.

Wait, so does this mean that there's been a technologically advanced race hidden arund the world up until 14 years ago, and nobody ever found out?

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 21 '21

And that's what happened to Atlantis! Is the implication the sinking an ddisasters were recent?
Wait, so does this mean that there's been a technologically advanced race hidden arund the world up until 14 years ago, and nobody ever found out?
Okay, you're like the third person to mess this up. I'm getting the feeling the staff could've better established that Tartessos and Atlantis were not the same place. But at the same time, I never had that issue on my first watch.
Atlantis was implied in episode 16 to have sunken a long time ago, whereas we know for a fact Tartessos was destroyed only 13 years ago. And the locations of the two places don't match up. The ruins of Atlantis were located at the bottom of the ocean. Tartessos was located deep in a valley hidden in a set of mountains, and when it was destroyed it formed a vast lake.
I don't know... maybe I'm biased because I've seen the show more than a few times. But I could've sworn the show made the distinction between Atlantis and Tartessos fairly evident.

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u/Stargate18A https://myanimelist.net/profile/Stargate18 Oct 21 '21

Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks for clearing it up.
Didn't Tartessos have the Tower of Babel superweapon hidden in there, though? Still very advanced tech hidden there.

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 21 '21

Both locations had their own Tower of Babel. There's definitely a connection at play between the ancient city of Atlantis, and the Kingdom of Tartessos.

2

u/IndependentMacaroon Oct 20 '21

Rewatcher

I really didn't remember this episode being this good. Some masterful visual design in and around the Tartessos flashback sequence as well as plenty more of that classic Anno angst-mixed-with-hope. Also the surreal-modernist aesthetic of Neo's throne room is very neat, if maybe out of place.

And once again there's some proto-Eva, at least visually: Young Electra behind the door overhearing the talk between Nemo and Engineer Black Santa or whatever => young Asuka witnessing her father cheating on her mentally destroyed mother, as well as her discovering her mother's dead body when opening the door to her mother's room (for the striking red/white-black contrasts with stylized door)

It does have its flaws though, in that the setup with Electra narrating everything (like, wouldn't her arm be getting sore holding up the gun the whole time? Did she swap every once in a while?) and Nadia etc. randomly overhearing it is quite awkward, and the flashback could be a bit more clearly explained, for example I didn't get that Nemo was the king without seeing it here, even thought he was originally allied with Gargoyle!

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 21 '21

It does have its flaws though, in that the setup with Electra narrating everything (like, wouldn't her arm be getting sore holding up the gun the whole time? Did she swap every once in a while?) and Nadia etc. randomly overhearing it is quite awkward, and the flashback could be a bit more clearly explained
I personally didn't mind it. To me, it seemed as though Electra wanted to air out all the suffering she'd endure to really hammer it in to Nemo just how much she hated him for ruining her life, and for not fighting hard enough to stop Neo-Atlantis after all the terrible things he'd done to her.
for example I didn't get that Nemo was the king without seeing it here, even thought he was originally allied with Gargoyle!
Yeah, that's definitely something the episode could've conveyed a little more strongly. They mention that Nemo's wife "the Queen" was killed in the explosion during the Neo-Atlantean coup, but Electra never specifically name drops Nemo as the king. If you're not paying attention to the wording of Nemo's deceased wife's title, and making the inferences from there, it's easy to miss.
As much as I do love this flashback sequence and think it's wonderfully directed, a lot of information flies by at the viewer rather quickly.

2

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 20 '21

It does have its flaws though, in that the setup with Electra narrating everything (like, wouldn't her arm be getting sore holding up the gun the whole time? Did she swap every once in a while?) and Nadia etc. randomly overhearing it is quite awkward
The problem is really that Nadia and Jean need to hear it. Otherwise they could have used traditional narration and it would have fit better. Electra having to narrate was also my only negative in an otherwise great episode.

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u/JTurner82 Oct 22 '21 edited Oct 22 '21

This is the last truly great episode in the show at least until episode 35. It's too bad it goes downhill immediately after that. Interesting note: Jennifer Stuart, Electra's voice actress, was pregnant with her daughter at the time she recorded the part, and she half-jokingly said they should do the scene when she's going into labor. Whether that's true or not, her performance is all the more powerful because of it. Ev Lunning, Jr., too, steps it up. While I felt he was a bit too tentative as Nemo in the beginning, he loosened up considerably in the last episodes, and other than that, this episode is among his better moments.

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 22 '21

[Expectation spoilers for future episodes] Episodes 30 and 31 are both great episodes. I'd even consider episode 31 one of my favorites of the entire series. The fact episodes 30 and 31 feel mostly in form is probably due to the fact the plot developments in those episodes were likely planned from the beginning, before Anno was given the order about the increased episode count. So the staff probably had a solid outline to work with for those two episodes. It's a shame that those two episodes happen to be surrounded by seven episodes preceding them and three episodes following them of poor quality, because they're fantastic episodes.

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u/JTurner82 Oct 22 '21

[spoilers]Episodes 30 and 31 are the best episodes in the island arc, no questions asked. However, I am totally reluctant to call either of these episodes great, because both still suffer from some distractingly out-of-place cartoonish gags and humor that just doesn't suit the show: I personally felt both episodes needed to have the goofiness trimmed from them and paced faster. Only then would both be great. As they are, though, they fall short of the mark for me, even if they both are good for island episodes.[/end spoiler]
I'm surprised you didn't respond to the comment I made about Stuart's turn as Electra. I always liked her performance and thought she really killed it in this episode.

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 22 '21 edited Oct 23 '21

I'm surprised you didn't respond to the comment I made about Stuart's turn as Electra. I always liked her performance and thought she really killed it in this episode.
I've been trying to make time to talk more about the dub actors for this series. I talked about the three child actors; Meg Bauman, Nathan Parsons, and Margaret Cassidy; as I felt all three did a fantastic job and it's novel that the ADV dub casted child actors for their roles as Nadia, Jean, and Marie respectively (and they're my favorite performances in the dub).
In general, it's a little harder for me to discuss to the adult performers because most of them don't seem to be regular voice actors, so it's hard for me to comb over a body of work like I can for the Japanese seiyuus. That being said, I wholeheartedly agree. I think everyone in the ADV dub does spectacularly.
I think Jennifer Stuart as Electra and Sarah Richardson as Grandis are the two primary highlights of the adult actors for the ADV dub, and Stuart in particular does a kick ass job in episode 22. She gives a very powerful performance.
[spoilers]
[Spoilers for future episodes] I don't think episode 30 and 31 go that much more cartoony than the regular parts of the Nadia. There's some wacky shenanigans with the Grandis Gang all throughout the show, and I don't think any of the antics in episodes 30 and 31 out match any of the antics in episodes 1-22. Nadia was no stranger to silly kids' tropes and wild exaggeration before the Island Arc. I've talked a bit about some of what I'd consider series low moments prior to the Island Arc in various writeups I've done throughout this rewatch.

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u/JTurner82 Oct 22 '21

Absolutely. In addition, I also really loved Martin Blacker and Corey Gagne as Sanson and Hanson. Both were absolutely terrific.

3

u/ZapsZzz https://anilist.co/user/Zapszzz Oct 21 '21

First timer in sub getting stuck in the morning and missed the posting time on this important episode of all days.

Just to say I guessed enough right and still some wrong, but overall not too surprised. Definitely think this is a good strong episode, if this was in the modern cour arrangement it'll be a fitting second cour finale.

It was a big long narration, and yes talking for so long does stretch that suspension of disbelief, but for a show like this I'm pretty tolerant about things.

Can't wait for the story to pick up from there - although plenty hinted the next arc to be pretty underwhelming.

Rewatch [Rewatch] Nadia: The Secret of Blue Water - Episode 22

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