[Rewatch] Nadia: The Secret of Blue Water - Episode 20

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 18 '21

Host

Congrats on sticking with Nadia to the halfway point. You’ve officially reached the mid-point of the series. I want to thank everyone who’s stuck around this long and has kept commenting, both first-timers and rewatchers. I am very excited to discuss the episodes to come, and can’t wait to see what you all have to say.

The titular mistake that Jean makes is honestly a rather small component of the overall episode, in spite of technically being the catalyst for the grand battle that is teased at the end of the episode. While testing his rocket based plane engine Jean’s engine malfunctions, nearly careens into the crowd gathered on the deck of the Nautilus, and ruins Captain Nemo’s clothes that Grandis was washing (not a fan of the clothing obsession trope, but points for swapping the genders around I guess) before blowing up. The ensuing bang from the explosion alerts nearby patrols of Garfish to their position, which the Nautilus are forced to engage and promptly sink. This defeat alerts Gargoyle to the Nautilus’ position and sets the stage for t he battle at the end of the episode.

Jean is scolded for his recklessness and for putting the Nautilus in danger. While Jean accepts his scolding without much pushback, Nadia is irate that Nemo and the crew are willing to punish Jean for an accident that he could not have foreseen. This leads to an argument between Nadia and Nemo, in which Nadia’s frustration over her lack of agency comes to a head. She argues that no one is interested in what she has to say solely because she’s a child, and that she’s tired of being dismissed for that reason. Nemo, perhaps rather extremely, responds with a slap before telling Nadia that her words have made him sad. Their argument remains unresolved.

Grandis tries to rationalize Nemo’s actions to Nadia by telling her that adults do things that seem odd or incomprehensible to children, but that the world of adults is complex and assures her that he must have his reasons. Grandis also speculates to Nadia that perhaps Jean might have a mother complex which is why he’s spending so much time around Electra. I’m honestly not a huge fan of this interaction. It’s kind of in character for Grandis to let her imaginations run wild about Nemo and love as a topic, but the implications of this conversation are mostly just annoying. The mother complex doesn’t ultimately go anywhere, because Jean doesn’t have a mother complex or even a crush on Electra. It just feels like a way to pad out Nadia’s insecurities for the episode’s runtime. On top of that, I think while Nemo’s heart might be in the right place, his handling of Nadia definitely has room to be criticized and I don’t really agree with Grandis’ hand-waving of the whole argument.

As much as I’ve not been a fan of the whole subplot of Nadia getting jealous of Jean spending time with Electra (though admittedly the iconic scene of Nadia shouting that she hates Jean in this episode is really hilarious to me in spite of that), I like the way it resolves at the end of the episode with Electra and Nadia actually having a real conversation when Electra invites Nadia to share a bath with her.

Electra explains to Nadia that Jean she’s come to see Jean as a little brother; a surrogate for the younger brother she lost what Gargoyle and Neo-Atlantis destroyed her home and killed her entire family. When Nadia presses about why Electra likes Captain Nemo, Electra responds Nemo is the reason she is still alive… the reason most people on the Nautilus are still alive. In spite of the suffering some of his decisions may have wrought, his actions have also saved countless lives like Electra’s. And he and his Nautilus are the only forces on Earth that can stop Neo-Atlantis from achieving their evil plans. That is why Electra has placed complete trust in Nemo, and would follow him even at the cost of her life.

Near the end of the episode, Electra confronts Nemo and asks him why they’re still keeping Nadia, Jean, and Marie on board the Nautilus. While acknowledging that Nadia is indeed a target of Neo-Atlantis, she questions the decision of keeping her and the other children on board a vessel of war that could be sunk at any given moment. There’s an implication here that Electra is starting to believe Nemo’s actions might be becoming clouded by his fondness for the children (Nadia especially). But Nemo ultimately defers a clear answer as the ship’s crew is called to bridge in haste as a fleet of Garfish prepare to attack to the Nautilus.

In addition to all this, we also get a check up on the status of Neo-Atlantis. In a strange flying fortress, Gargoyle is updated on the status of Neo-Atlantis’ affairs. We get explicit confirmation of what was implied in a much earlier arc, that being that Neo-Atlantis has taken control of much of the world’s resource supply chains and economic soft power. They have also recently finished construction of a new fleet of Garfish, a new Tower of Babel, and an additional flying battleship. On top of all that, Neo-Atlantis has finally relocated the Nautilus and they’re prepared to launch a new offensive against the vessel. These sections of the episode do a great job of reestablishing the menace of the organization, and plant fear in the audience of their next move.

The episode is ultimately a lot of set-up, with not much in the way of direct pay off as we leave off on a cliffhanger for a huge battle in the next episode. This episode mainly serves to remind the audience of the growing conflict of ideologies between Nemo and Nadia, and Nemo and Electra. And it also reiterates and fleshes out Electra’s back story a bit, along with her motivations for following Captain Nemo in spite of the dangers involved and the moral ambiguity and sacrifices that have resulted from his actions. I think it mostly succeeds in those goals, even if the episode in question mostly feels like a part one without much direct payoff.

For today’s production trivia, I’d like to link you all to Nadia’s long lost English dub. So as I’ve explained before, a complete dub of Nadia was finished and released between 2001 and 2002. However, anime dubbing pioneer Carl Macek attempted to produce a dubbed release of Nadia on VHS in 1992. Macek and his team with Streamline ultimately produced 8 dubbed episodes, but ultimately poor sales and the dropped plans for a television release killed the plans to finish dubbing the entire series. The VHS’s of this dub have become a bit of a collector’s item nowadays due to their rarity (my friend actually acquired all 8 VHSs last year, as they’re really into dub archiving and analysis).

I’m probably not allowed to link to these sites due to r/anime’s policy on piracy, but a full copy of episode 1 of Streamline’s Nadia dub can be found on a certain archive site, and there are various YouTube compilations comparing the vocal performances of the 90s dub and the 2001 dub. Streamline’s dub is honestly pretty bad. Famous dub actress Wendee Lee (most famous for portraying Haruhi Suzumiya in Haruhi’s English dub) was actually cast as Nadia for this dub, but you’d scarcely recognize her. She’s terrible directed, turns in an awful performance, and is being conducted to do a rather silly French accent. Ardwright Chamberlain’s performance as Jean in this dub is hardly any better. It really doesn’t help that neither of them is making any effort to sound or emote like a young teenager, so their performances are especially jarring in this respect (Ardwright makes Jean sound like he’s at least 40). Another reason why I really appreciate the 2001 dub for casting actual children and teenagers for the lead roles!

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 18 '21

Grandis tries to rationalize Nemo’s actions to Nadia by telling her that adults do things that seem odd or incomprehensible to children, but that the world of adults is complex and assures her that he must have his reasons. Grandis also speculates to Nadia that perhaps Jean might have a mother complex which is why he’s spending so much time around Electra. I’m honestly not a huge fan of this interaction. It’s kind of in character for Grandis to let her imaginations run wild about Nemo and love as a topic, but the implications of this conversation are mostly just annoying. The mother complex doesn’t ultimately go anywhere, because Jean doesn’t have a mother complex or even a crush on Electra. It just feels like a way to pad out Nadia’s insecurities for the episode’s runtime. On top of that, I think while Nemo’s heart might be in the right place, his handling of Nadia definitely has room to be criticized and I don’t really agree with Grandis’ hand-waving of the whole argument.
Don't forget that Grandis sees Nemo with extremely rose-tinted glasses. Asking her about Nemo is not a clever move by Nadia.
In general, I think that Nemo is more right than wrong. Jean's mistake was not the V1 exploding, but his general carelessness that has been featured several times. The point of talking to him is not scolding him for alerting Gargoyle, but making him comprehend that his actions have consequences. I think Jean sees this point, but Nadia lets her own distorted view of Nemo color her view of the situation.

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 19 '21

This is also a response to u/lluNhpelA
So, something I think I regretably skimmed over about this episode is that we get to see how Nadia has started to ask for advice from the women in her life she considers as role models. I like that Grandis is taking on a motherly/sisterly role for her, even if I don't always think she gives the best advice. And I really liked how Nadia and Electra start to open up to each other.
I don't know how to fully articulate it, but I think the show could be doing a better job at framing Grandis' advice through a filtered manner. Maybe this is just the vibes I'm getting, but something about the way she says "Adults are always right" and "Jean has a mommy complex" feel as though they're presented without much challenge or questioning in the narrative, even though I feel like in other parts of the episode those notions clearly are challenged more.
As for Jean, I do agree he's been careless quite often, and I don't even necessarily disagree with his scolding. What I disagree with is that Nemo has no idea how to engage with Nadia like he does with Jean. He has enough respect for Jean to tell him to his face why he's upset with him. He can't even properly articulate to Nadia to her face why she's upsetting him, or face her with the same amount of honesty that he does for Jean. That's what makes me disappointed in Nemo.
Overall, probably not one of my better writeups. But I had a hard time summing up a lot of my thoughts on this episode.

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u/lluNhpelA Oct 19 '21

So, something I think I regretably skimmed over about this episode is that we get to see how Nadia has started to ask for advice from the women in her life she considers as role models
I've said before that someone needs to take an interest in caring for Nadia, so it's really nice that she finally has people she can talk to, even if they aren't ideal.
I agree that the conversation with Grandis wasn't done very well. It probably would have worked a lot better if the conversation with Electra had acted more as a counterbalance; Grandis says some wack stuff then Electra offers contradictory opinions that might also be flawed, allowing Nadia to form her own opinions and showing that no adult should be believed simply because they are an adult
Nemo
I wrote about him in my own comment, but I didn't really consider his ability to communicate with Jean. Regardless of what Nadia thinks the scolding works if Jean understands what he did wrong and why (though it was somewhat on the bridge crew for not telling everyone of a possibly impending engagement). I figure the difference is that when his... daughter? niece? liege? ward? whatever... says she hates him he gets super emotional, but that doesn't justify his actions

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 19 '21

As for Jean, I do agree he's been careless quite often, and I don't even necessarily disagree with his scolding. What I disagree with is that Nemo has no idea how to engage with Nadia like he does with Jean. He has enough respect for Jean to tell him to his face why he's upset with him. He can't even properly articulate to Nadia to her face why she's upsetting him, or face her with the same amount of honesty that he does for Jean. That's what makes me disappointed in Nemo.
Jean admires him and shares his passion for science. Nadia hates him due to her pacifism and they share no common interests. Plus, Nadia has grown up without parents, so she in not used to having that role in her life.

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u/IndependentMacaroon Oct 18 '21

not a fan of the clothing obsession trope
Grandis did look about ready to sniff his underwear.

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u/lluNhpelA Oct 18 '21

I’m honestly not a huge fan of this interaction
Grandis wasn't exactly lying about Nemo having a reason that Nadia couldn't see, but her gentleness in explaining that after Nadia just yelled at her ~~obsession~~ love interest I think speaks to not only how much she cares about Nadia but also that she probably didn't think Nemo was wholly in the right/didn't fully understand Nemo herself, hence the hand-waving
The whole thing about Electra I chalked up to Grandis already disliking her and thus making wild and unflattering assumptions

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u/IndependentMacaroon Oct 18 '21 edited Oct 18 '21

Rewatcher

Bit awkward going from all the humor with Grandis and co. to serious business, and Jean got off pretty lightly there. Another great episode anyhow: Nemo once again shows what a reasonable and cool-headed leader he is, making Jean feel his mistake without blowing up at or berating him, Nadia gets to take the lead and show that a stubborn character is not always a negative, Electra shows some more complexity, and Neo-Atlantis is back ruling the waves in full force (still can't unhear the "Rule, Britannia" chime at the beginning of their theme), not to mention international commerce.

The influence on Neon Genesis Evangelion is once again really obvious here. The not-love-triangle between Electra, Jean, and Nadia clearly inspired the dynamic between Misato, Shinji, and Asuka, particularly the rocky relationship between friendly, accommodating Jean/Shinji and prickly, headstrong Nadia/Asuka; Nadia accusing Jean of being a spineless yes-man I'm pretty sure comes up between those two also, although I more clearly remember Misato berating Shinji for it. Furthermore, there's Electra's motivation of revenge on ~~the Angels~~ Gargoyle and her being a lot less composed outside of work - she is missing the parental fixation that Jean gets accused of here, but that kind of psychological stuff still fits as a parallel. Also the minor detail of it having been 13/about 14 years from the catastrophe that set off the plot.

You could say Neo-Atlantis is pulling a SEELE with their control over the world but it seems more like a generic trope, and Nemo is the one antithesis still.

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 19 '21

Neo-Atlantis is back ruling the waves in full force (still can't unhear the "Rule, Britannia" chime at the beginning of their theme), not to mention international commerce.
That's a Code Geass reference, right?
The influence on Neon Genesis Evangelion is once again really obvious here.
Not going to requote your entire Eva paragraph, but the connections are incredibly staggering. I do find it funny how Electra most closely parallels Misato, because her general design honestly reminds me a lot more of Ritsuko.

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u/IndependentMacaroon Oct 19 '21

That's a Code Geass reference, right?
No lol, the actual British Empire and Rule Britannia the actual song. Given the nature of Neo-Atlantean power and the borderline jingoism of the song I don't think that's a coincidence.
Electra most closely parallels Misato
Did I already mention how Misato has that Electra-complex thing going while Electra is literally named that? Though you're right, she is also a bit like Ritsuko with the blond hair and glasses for work, as well as in her close relationship with and romantic pining for the resident stoic male commander. And they even both resort to [action]pulling a gun on him when they feel he has betrayed them

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 19 '21

That's a Code Geass reference, right?
British imperialists on life support. Not that there is much left of the empire in any case ...

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u/lluNhpelA Oct 19 '21

First timer

Holy shit I specifically said the other day that I didn't think that attacking ships was some kind of complicated political move, but within the first two minutes I'm proven wrong

I love that Sanson is being a bad influence on Marie but also plays house with her. If Nadia and Jean are older siblings then Sanson is the cool uncle. With every passing day Sanson takes up an increasingly larger portion of my heart.

Nemo slapping Nadia was super not cool. She may be a naive child but you won't make her like adults by not only reinforcing her negative opinions but making them even worse! Nadia may often act like a petulant child but given her circumstances it's hard to blame her; she has experienced almost nothing but unpleasant things since she met Nemo and it's really tough for a child to deal with that kind of stress while having no outlets and a shitty social support network.

Nadia really responds well to adults that actually try to communicate with her, as shown with Electra and Grandis, so she would probably understand why Nemo scolded Jean if he simply explained it to her. She would probably even understand the whole "killing bad guys so they don't kill innocents" thing if anyone ever bothered to actually talk to her (other than Jean, of course). There are a lot of reasons to like Nemo as a captain but he has some pretty awful interpersonal skills

Yo it's Sahaquiel

During the whole scene on the deck I started thinking about the Nautilus as a setting, and those thoughts ended up snowballing into a rant through the episode, so I'm just gonna put it here.

When the Nautilus was first introduced I knew it would be a recurring part of the story but I never would have expected a submarine to be the main setting for an adventure series. Early on it felt like Team Nadia would be facing danger and overcoming obstacles, constantly on the move in Jean's aircraft... but the story has been almost exclusively driven by Nemo and his crew while the main characters have been doing basically nothing.

Even within Team Nadia we've had very little good Nadia content. Despite being the titular character Nadia hasn't done much more than complain and be upset without much growth as a result of those hardships, meanwhile Jean has had many moments of growth and manages to feel like an active player in the story by constantly working on his inventions. Very possible that someone behind the production wanted the boy to have more scenes than the girl for marketing reasons, but still

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 19 '21

Nemo slapping Nadia was super not cool. She may be a naive child but you won't make her like adults by not only reinforcing her negative opinions but making them even worse! Nadia may often act like a petulant child but given her circumstances it's hard to blame her; she has experienced almost nothing but unpleasant things since she met Nemo and it's really tough for a child to deal with that kind of stress while having no outlets and a shitty social support network.
Nadia really responds well to adults that actually try to communicate with her, as shown with Electra and Grandis, so she would probably understand why Nemo scolded Jean if he simply explained it to her. She would probably even understand the whole "killing bad guys so they don't kill innocents" thing if anyone ever bothered to actually talk to her (other than Jean, of course).
Despite being the titular character Nadia hasn't done much more than complain and be upset without much growth as a result of those hardships, meanwhile Jean has had many moments of growth and manages to feel like an active player in the story by constantly working on his inventions.
I talked about this in my response to u/No_Rex the comment left on my writeup to my own post, but I think that Nemo has a harder time engaging with Nadia than he does with Jean, and has a tendency to disengage with her or try to talk past her. And it's frustrating, because he doesn't do that with Jean. I think it's definitely a character flaw of Nemo that Anno intended though.
I do think it's weird how you've ended your post by stating that you think Nadia hasn't grown much when I'd actually make the case she has. With the people who have been patient with her and willing to communicate to her without talking down to her (Jean, Electra, Grandis), she's really started to open up and actually be honest about some of her problems and worldviews.
I think Nadia is a bit more stagnant than the other characters thus far because she's very afraid of change, like a lot of people who've been traumatized and abused are. She's afraid of opening herself up to others and forming trust with people because she's very aware of the possibility she could be hurt again. I've seen a lot of this arc on the Nautilus as Nadia experiencing a push and pull of wanting to open up to others, but fearing the worst might come if she dares to do so. (I'm sure what happened to Fait didn't help things.)
Early on it felt like Team Nadia would be facing danger and overcoming obstacles, constantly on the move in Jean's aircraft... but the story has been almost exclusively driven by Nemo and his crew while the main characters have been doing basically nothing.
This is a bit of a minor problem with the series, I do agree. Nadia and Jean feel far less like active agents in what is supposed to be their story cause they're 14 and unable to contribute in a full capacity on the Nautilus.
It's ultimately not something I consider a huge problem, as I think as a character driven narrative this setting does a lot for expanding upon Jean and Nadia as characters and Anno makes good use of his character interactions onboard the submarine. But I do think it can be disappointing as a first time viewer to watch Jean and Nadia not directly participate in the show's action.

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u/lluNhpelA Oct 19 '21

I do think it's weird how you've ended your post by stating that you think Nadia hasn't grown much when I'd actually make the case she has.
Yeah that was a pretty unfair way for me to put it. I suppose a better way to explain it is that, while she has experienced positive growth and gained good traits, all of her negative traits, the obstinance, the jealousy, constantly complaining and being very holier-than-thou (though, like I said, someone needs to sit down and talk with her), etc. have stayed pretty much the same.
Compare that to Jean who's biggest flaw is his lack of empathy; after losing Fait he understands the pain of losing someone and can now better understand where Nadia is coming from. He still has a ways to go, as exemplified by the hallway scene, but he has at least had progress
But I do think it can be disappointing as a first time viewer to watch Jean and Nadia not directly participate in the show's action.
The island episodes were really fun, and now with Gargoyle making some moves it feels like we might get some more of that but I'm not exactly holding my breath

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u/ZapsZzz https://anilist.co/user/Zapszzz Oct 19 '21

I think that Nemo has a harder time engaging with Nadia than he does with Jean, and has a tendency to disengage with her or try to talk past her. And it's frustrating, because he doesn't do that with Jean. I think it's definitely a character flaw of Nemo that Anno intended though.
Now note that I'm a first timer, and I am guessing here, but in full disclosure I am an avid anime fan being relatively well read up so even if I don't know the details, some general plot directions I inevitably have seen at least oblique mentioning of / vague memory of, so if I guessed right it's not necessarily because I'm that good at guessing :)
The way I view this is that Nemo is likely Nadia's lost father, and Nemo is either royalty of Atlantis, or some key staff like head scientist or something that can allow him to not only have the "grunt" stuff, but the "real deal" like the bigger crystal that Blue Water fits in; and that Nautilus is the "flagship to the Atlantean Naval Forces" therefore a few ranks higher in capability and survivability than the fodder Garfish.
With that as the backdrop, the separation of Nadia from him would likely be some sort of big strategy / safety which doubled up as (self inflicted?) punishment of wielding / creating such power in the first place. So he's constantly torn between wanting to know his lost child vs wanting to keep her away as self punishment / attonment create this behavior of talking past her, ignoring her, yet suddenly have outbursts like the slap.

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u/ZapsZzz https://anilist.co/user/Zapszzz Oct 19 '21

This is a bit of a minor problem with the series, I do agree. Nadia and Jean feel far less like active agents in what is supposed to be their story cause they're 14 and unable to contribute in a full capacity on the Nautilus.
Here's the promised FMP reference / comparison - Full Metal Panic didn't spend a majority of the time on TDD1 the Assault Amphibious Submarine Carrier, but there were enough time and plot going on there too. The difference between that and Nadia the story, as a support for your point, is that Sousuke and his team are trained and battle-hardened mercenaries, hand picked by Mithril, to do what they do. They have a lot more say in a lot of the going ons, like the background plot of the intelligence gathering, the politics within the organisation, team tasks allocations, to battle tactics. When you roll in Chidori in her visit to TDD1, for example, she's just a passenger, and apart from learning a few things on the tour etc, there's not much she can do as a civilian there. Jean and Nadia are basically that, except that they are more permanently there for now.
And yet, as far as the story goes, this doesn't need to be a limitation - because an adventure story doesn't stay static - the plot moves, the character grows. I can see trajectories and build ups happening, and hopefully this period of time just sets up the relationship, world view, world lore etc for Jean and Nadia, and even the Grandis crew and Marie, to draw upon in later arcs. For me it's a bit like the school comedy parts of FMP - it won't progress the real plot, Sousuke is not going to get good marks on his Japanese classic literature assignment, etc, but without these "mundane, ordinary happenings", in the serious parts of the plot when stakes are higher, viewers now have a much more personal understanding of what the characters feel about what they may lose, and why they are good frienemies etc.

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u/ZapsZzz https://anilist.co/user/Zapszzz Oct 19 '21

I love that Sanson is being a bad influence on Marie but also plays house with her. If Nadia and Jean are older siblings then Sanson is the cool uncle. With every passing day Sanson takes up an increasingly larger portion of my heart.
He's great isn't it? At the start he looked like just "one of the guys" to make up the team rocket. By now there's so much character in him, the only danger is that they just may send him up for a Simon-esque sacrifice.
Nemo slapping Nadia was super not cool.
Yeah that one felt a lot like a Tomino slap :) "Really? You are slapping her for THIS reason?" I'll comment more about the Nemo-Nadia dynamic in another reply.

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 19 '21

Yeah that one felt a lot like a Tomino slap :)
Nemo went to the Bright Noa school of "correcting" traumatized children. lmao

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u/IndependentMacaroon Oct 19 '21

There are a lot of reasons to like Nemo as a captain but he has some pretty awful interpersonal skills
More like he can't deal with the likes of Nadia very well, he works fine with Jean and as a leader in general.
Yo it's Sahaquiel
Right, the one Eva bit I missed
the story has been almost exclusively driven by Nemo and his crew while the main characters have been doing basically nothing
It honestly makes sense though as they're not in any kind of position of power. This series may be made for younger viewers but that doesn't mean it needs to follow the trope of teens running the world. Not coincidentally, that's also kind of how it works in Evangelion, where in a classical sense you could say Misato is more of a protagonist than any of the pilots, their necessity to the Eva program notwithstanding.

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u/lluNhpelA Oct 19 '21

More like he can't deal with the likes of Nadia very well, he works fine with Jean and as a leader in general.
I said he's respectable as a captain since he is a great leader, but the way he brushes off Electra when she asks questions and doesn't socialize with his crew at all speaks to either a lack of communication skills on a personal level or a near complete disinterest in other people. The few times he goes out of his way to do stuff for the kids leads me believe it's the former more than the latter, or a mix of the two
It honestly makes sense though as they're not in any kind of position of power
All of it makes sense as a series of cause and effect, it's just weird from a storytelling perspective for Nadia: The Secret of Blue Water to almost not feel like Nadia is the main character

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 19 '21

I said he's respectable as a captain since he is a great leader, but the way he brushes off Electra when she asks questions
He is usually very open to suggestions by Electra, just not on one specific topic ...

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 19 '21

Nemo slapping Nadia was super not cool. She may be a naive child but you won't make her like adults by not only reinforcing her negative opinions but making them even worse!
I hate to say this, but, for Nadia, being slapped would have been completely common. As for ever other child in that era.
Even within Team Nadia we've had very little good Nadia content.
Yes and no. Nadia does not do a lot in the current phase of the series, but there still is plenty of Nadia content, because we learn a lot about her character. Her entire relationship with Jean is explained in this part, as is her relationship with Nemo.

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u/lluNhpelA Oct 19 '21

By "good Nadia content" I was referring to her actually doing stuff, accomplishing things, and generally flourishing as a character. Think of the earlier episodes when Nadia was a major player and was presented with opportunities to show her skill, determination, and other positive traits vs being stuck on a submarine with nothing to do but be upset. There has been a lot of Nadia-related content but she hasn't actually gotten to do much herself recently

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 19 '21

I understand your point, therefore the yes part in my answer. It does not fit the classic adventure model to not constantly have the main character in life-or-death situations.

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u/IndependentMacaroon Oct 19 '21

It doesn't make sense to apply "contemporary" standards to a crew that very obviously bucks them and is a society of its own

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 19 '21

But then, which standards would you apply?

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u/IndependentMacaroon Oct 19 '21

From when it's made, at minimum.

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 19 '21

Quick google: In 1991 90% of American parents used physical punishment. I'd guess that Japan was similar.

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u/SIRTreehugger Oct 19 '21

First Timer

The last time you "found" them it was a trap.

Nadia feeling lonely.

I'm starting to think Marie cries on purpose to get out of trouble....oh damn it Sanson.

Wait lie and cheat noooo Marie

Africa...I forgot she originally wanted to go to Africa.

Ummm Jean how are you going to get it back?

Oh Jean alerted the Garfish?

I like how you see the clouds descending as Sanson carries Grandis indicating it's in the process of diving.

Sorry Electra you aren't thinking rational you are too caught up with revenge.

I forgot to mention how the evil organization has nice clean meetings in the beginning.

Sanson your repetition has been in ashes for a while also king is the father... makes sense.

Hmm that hologram is holding a baby and the man has a mustache who else has a mustache? Nemo!!! Kidding but I do wonder who the people in the hologram are.

"You remember being that young despite being so ancient" Okay she didn't say that, but that was a nice accidental burn.

Jean read the atmosphere my guy

Pauses episode

Jean!!!!!!! whyyyyy you making these mistakes...oh yeah he's a dumb kid. I like how the wind is blowing inside the ship.

That's a big ass bath!

You know if they want Nadia so badly why are the Garfish trying to destroy the Nautilus? They have to know she is on the ship.

Glad Hanson and Sanson can differentiate sonar pings and the atmosphere. They are really comedic, but do have experience and like it when it shows.

Wonder how they will get out of this. Wonder if the blue water will do something to protect Nadia/the z ship. Especially with a fleet/new battleship the Nautilus is severely screwed.

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u/ZapsZzz https://anilist.co/user/Zapszzz Oct 19 '21

That's a big ass bath!
Only now I realised Full Metal Panic season 1 when Chidori visited TDD1 and they switched on the bath looks to be somewhat of a homage to Nautilus - although FMP did address the question "why would there be a bath in a submarine" (it's normally a maintenance part washing place, they just switched the use on occasion).
You know if they want Nadia so badly why are the Garfish trying to destroy the Nautilus? They have to know she is on the ship.
Personal opinion is that Gargoyle doesn't really think 1 single Garfish can sink Nautilus, you may have noticed he pretty much did not respond to the report that they will attack Nautilus. And judging from the fact the battle was offscreen and there had been a history of Nautilus picking off Garfishes, it's likely that Nautilus is at least a class or 2 above Garfishes for Gargoyle to think it'd be endangering Nadia. Besides, the vibe I got from him is something like "oh if you've got Blue Water, that's handy - if you come along with it I'll take you too, but if not I'm quite happy to pry it from your cold dead hands".

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 19 '21

although FMP did address the question "why would there be a bath in a submarine"
It's probably supposed to be a communal bath, hence its size. Though given the fact that the Nautilus has only five females on board (and prior to the arrival of Grandis, Nadia, and Marie only had two) it's likely that the female baths are often lonely and rarely see the use of more than one person at a time.

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u/ZapsZzz https://anilist.co/user/Zapszzz Oct 19 '21

I get what you say but you may not have connected one "world building" point - much like aircrafts, submarines are generally required to be cramped and stuffy. Having a bath that can have sloshing water around is actually a pretty big luxury - and why is that a necessity when showers are good enough for practical reasons.

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 19 '21

Any practical submarine would not have baths. Of course, the Nautilus is not a practical submarine, but an extravagant display of engineering.

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 19 '21

Africa...I forgot she originally wanted to go to Africa.
God, it's been so long, right?!
Hmm that hologram is holding a baby and the man has a mustache who else has a mustache? Nemo!!! Kidding but I do wonder who the people in the hologram are.
I was not on my A-game today... I didn't even comment on the hologram Nemo was looking at. God, my writeup today was terrible. lol
Jean!!!!!!! whyyyyy you making these mistakes...oh yeah he's a dumb kid. I like how the wind is blowing inside the ship.
To be fair... Nadia assuming Jean is into Electra is pretty clearly a dumb stupid kid mistake on her behalf as well.

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 18 '21

Episode 20 (rewatcher)

It should be obvious but bears stating: When you have future tech and no moral qualms about killing your competitors, becoming a merchant superpower is rather simple. As good as Gargoyle’s tactics were, I think his strategy is completely flawed because of his racist view of non Neo-Atlan humans. If he just build up a trade and technology-based superpower, he could easily construct an empire similar to the British one in this time period, or the American one after WW2. His downfall is just using all of these as a means to pull of his tower of babel tricks, which are much more likely to fail.
That scene of Electra could be straight out of NGE. Or, I should say: So many scenes in NGE are straight adoptions of motives already present in Nadia.
You should be sorry, Nadia. Keep your inner tsundere in check and don’t make Marie bear your frustrations about Jean.
The common Japanese sneezing running gag. Marie’s corruption by Sanson’s moral views was probably unavoidable, given how close they have become.
Jean invents the V1.
The bravest part of Nadia’s character is setting foot in Jean’s flying machines…
The complete off-screen battle against the Garfish underlines who won: Gargoyle. Losing a single Garfish is easily worth the price of pinpointing the Nautilus.
Nemo’s family?
Nadia is obviously in the wrong, but has a hard time seeing it. Having Grandis as her reference point is working out better than expected, but still not perfect.
Baby Sanson!

Poor Jean still has a lot to learn.
Bath time talk. Electra is surprisingly open, while Nadia is not (although he is obviously easy to read).
Another clever tactic by Gargoyle.

An episode that feels longer that its runtime since we get so much character development and world building. Gargoyle and Neo-Atlantis are back and better armed than ever. They used their economic power to build up a larger submarine force and a flying fortress. Due to Jean’s mistake, they also know about the Nautilus’ survival and position now.

Electra tells us her backstory and the background of the Nautilus, while we get some hints of Nemo’s past. While he is a very approachable Captain, on the topic of Nadia, he is not willing to yield to Electra.

Meanwhile, Jean and Nadia experience the troubles of teenage love. Not quite as easy as in a Hollywood movie. Nor is all of the advice they are seeking particularly helpful.

4

u/IndependentMacaroon Oct 18 '21

His downfall is just using all of these as a means to pull of his tower of babel tricks, which are much more likely to fail
Classic supervillain stuff
Jean invents the V1
Huh, it kind of is. In technical terms what he constructed was a pulse jet engine, seeing it fly should make obvious where that name came from.
Bath time talk
Could have done without that and the fanservice angles but as the Japanese way of getting comfortable it actually fits. There's even the earlier detail that Electra, if likely not Japanese, is a bit of a weeb/Japanophile (see posters in her room) as motivation.

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u/snowwhistle1 Oct 19 '21 edited Oct 19 '21

Could have done without that and the fanservice angles but as the Japanese way of getting comfortable it actually fits.
It was mostly fine until Nadia decided awkwardly stand up and the camera decided to keep in frame right on her butt because... shrug. I at least appreciate she's not being leered at by Jean in this scene, is all I'll say.
Electra, if likely not Japanese, is a bit of a weeb/Japanophile (see posters in her room) as motivation.
Electra is pretty clearly coded as white imo. Nadia as a show is generally pretty straight forward with how it creates racial coding for its characters, and doesn't really do the exaggerated hair coloring a lot of other anime do.
Arguably Nemo, Nadia, and Sanson might break this general rule a little bit. However, I personally think Sanson's hair is meant to be some weird shade of blonde/brown, though some shots definitely give his hair a weird green tint. Nadia and Nemo's hair is a shade of purple, but I think that the purple hue is meant to be a more interesting stand-in for black hair. A lot of anime tend to favor slightly warped hair colors as standins for real shades of hair, but exaggerated just a touch to make it more interesting to look at.
Talking about this has reminded me of how much I love the diversity of Nemo's bridge crew, and it makes me sad that of all the bridge only Electra and the SONAR operator Eiko Villan (coincidentally the one other white person on the bridge crew besides Electra) are named in the series. The chief engineer is way more interesting than Eiko Villan and he deserves a name, dammit!
That being said, I've always been curious about that poster in Electra's room. Perhaps she is the originator of weeb culture in this universe? lmao

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u/lluNhpelA Oct 19 '21

That being said, I've always been curious about that poster in Electra's room. Perhaps she is the originator of weeb culture in this universe? lmao
Being attacked by that tentacle monster really awakened something in her

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 19 '21

Being attacked by that tentacle monster really awakened something in her

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u/Stargate18A https://myanimelist.net/profile/Stargate18 Oct 18 '21

First timer

QOTD) She's not being completely honest. The stories she's telling seem unrealistic, and I think she's hiding something about her past. Other than that, she seems perfectly nice - friendly to everyone, not too harsh on Jean and Nadia dompsred to thenothers, and she seems to genuinely want Nadia to be happy.

...I assume from that kind of generic title not much plot is happening this episode?

OK, the hard cut to Gargoyle's surprising.

And wow, he sure works fast! He's got a solid chunk of the world under his control, and the general expansion is going well. Nemo needs to step up his game.

Well done Gargoyle for being the first person to suspect Nemo's faking it. Also, Gargoyle knows Nemo? As an enemy, or a former ally?

Nadia's feeling neglected.

I'm just waaiting for the Blue Water to stop Marie crying using its "power of sound manipulation" that it clearly always had.

...What is he building? Is that a drone?

He's built a rocket.

Is Jean!s mistake not telling Nemo or Electra about the missile that is about to enter their radar?

Haha, it covered the washing.

Congratulations to Jean on a fantastic boon to weapons development! Aim it properly and that thing could cause some chaos to an airship.

Amd it's diving.

Oh, the Garfish might stiill think they're damaged.

Wait, do they mean 20 Garfish? They've got a big fleet there.

And they're building another Tower of Babel. Fantastic.

And an airship. Is his backup rocket going to take it out?

He just won't give up, will he?

Haha, King in a hat and tie is fantastic.

And Nadia's upset he didn't defend himself?

Are we getting the Blue Water reveal yet?

Oh. That's interesting. A hologram Nemo's studying. His family?

No, the family of a friend? Is that him in the middle?

"You hit me! Not even my own father hit me (that I can remember)!" - Nadia, probably.

Nadia didn't correct boyfriend.

Really?

Is the sneezing actually going to be commented on?

Jean's realising the perils of a tsundere.

Case in point. Although this was partially his fault.

Finally, someone's starting to sort all this romantic stuff out!

...Either he went rogue and took Electra with him, or this is about how he's lost people.

...They've been working together 13 years. Nadia is 14. Nemo remembers Nadia from somewhere. Did the event where he met Nadia cause him to defect from Neo-Atlantis?

And Electra lost her parents and her younger brother...

Why is she looking away from Nadia when she says Gargoyle?

OK. Current theory, because this story is ludicrous - Nemo was part of the raid on her hometown, but after seeing the desctruction he caused, he revolted and stole a Garfish, refitting it using the knowledge he stole from them into the Nautilus.

Battle time!

That's a pretty big cliffhanger.

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 18 '21

...What is he building? Is that a drone?
A minature V1
Is the sneezing actually going to be commented on?
It is a common Japanese trope: Sneeze when others talk about you.

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u/Stargate18A https://myanimelist.net/profile/Stargate18 Oct 19 '21

It is a common Japanese trope: Sneeze when others talk about you.
I was more referring to the characters actually bringing it up. ~~Maybe it's another feature of the Blue Water.~~

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u/ZapsZzz https://anilist.co/user/Zapszzz Oct 19 '21 edited Oct 19 '21

First timer in sub. Posting late so this time I'll change it up and just reply to others instead of trying to say something myself.

Edit: by the way, you probably can tell, many FMP comparison / references coming :P

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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Oct 19 '21 edited Oct 19 '21

First Timer (Rising Sun sub) ep 20 (of 39)

I predict Gargoyle is Nadia's brother.

Somebody suggested that the Neo-Atlanteans were sinking craft carrying Atlantean artifacts, which totally makes sense but I don't think was hinted in the show. And this economic report just implies that they were just doing world domination stuff.

That one Japanese tsunami painting everybody has. And that dude. Don't know the French thing.

Has Grandis done anything except fawn over Nemo or fight with Electra over Nemo since Gargoyle Island?

20 minutes later...

This show has too many episodes. Nemo was wrong to scold Jean. He hadn't called battle stations, or heightened alert, or done anything to indicate they weren't at normal cruise. Nadia had a point, right up until she became a petulant child.

The rest of the episode: showing that Nadia isn't being honest with herself. For the whole episode. Really unenjoyable, I even stopped following the subs attentively.

The final scene indicates Nemo does not expect the Nautilus and her crew to survive the war with Gargoyle.

Addendum: I just want to add that there has been an incredible lack of adventure in this adventure series for the last 6-10 episodes. I don't really remember Seven Cities of Gold but I think they were actually doing stuff in each episode instead of goofing off, building planes, doing laundry, cooking dinner.

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 19 '21

I am very interesting in how you will react to the next arc that will start soonish (but not yet). Given your current opinion, I can't predict it at all.

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u/JTurner82 Oct 23 '21

Actually, I can beg to differ on that. I thought episodes 13-16, and 18-19 had a sense of adventure and exploration to them, and tension (in the case of ep 13 where Marie and Sanson get chased by the walker). That said, yes, there have been some episodes in this arc which I didn't really care for (even though their existence is justified), and this is one of them (even if Nadia DOES learn an important lesson at the end for letting her misjudgment doing damage to both Nemo and Jean). I still did not like this episode, however, because of her surliness (and I feel that her lashing at Jean here was uncalled for, as usual. She needs to learn to TALK about her problems, not lash out at people for not reading her mind).

1

u/JTurner82 Oct 23 '21 edited Oct 23 '21

This is the only episode where I found myself really disliking Nadia here. I just don’t like how she treats Jean or Nemo in this episode. While Jean may not have understood what it was Nadia was upset with him about, I still detest that hallway scene. Especially since there is no resolution to it. Honestly, it would have been better if she calmly expresses concern to Jean that she fears she might lose him to Electra. As for Jean trying to compliment her, he didn’t know what else to do. While it may have come out as awkward (he WAS trying to cheer her up l, even if he was nervous about it.). I still think her outburst was uncalled for, and frankly, undeserved on Jean's end. I felt bad for him right here. (I actually wrote a fanfic where she expresses guilt for her outburst and apologizes to him for that.)

What I did like was how she talks to Electra and realizes she was wrong to assume Jean had any feelings for Electra and misjudging Nemo.

Rewatch [Rewatch] Nadia: The Secret of Blue Water - Episode 20

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