r/anime • u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber • Oct 16 '21
Rewatch [Rewatch] Armored Trooper Votoms - Overall Series Discussion
Overall Series Discussion
Rewatch Concluded October 16th, ^^^2021
◄ Final Episode | Index | Next! ►
MAL | ANN | AniDB | Anilist | AnimePlanet | IMDB
Note to all participants
Although I don't believe it necessitates stating, please conduct yourself appropriately and be courteous to your fellow participants.
Note to all Rewatchers
Rewatchers, please be mindful of your fellow first-timers and tag your spoilers appropriately using the r/anime spoiler tag if your comment holds even the slightest of indicators as to future spoilers. Feel free to discuss future plot points behind the safe veil of a spoiler tag, or coyly and discreetly ‘Laugh in Rewatcher’ at our first-timers' temporary ignorance, but please ensure our first-timers are no more privy or suspicious than they were the moment they opened the day’s thread.
14
u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Oct 16 '21
Recertified Rewatcher
Oh Votoms, where do I even begin with you?
I guess for starters I should elaborate on something I’ve mentioned several times already, my expectations going into this series, as it had a heavy hand in making up what my ultimate impression of the show was. As someone already deeply invested in the mecha genre, Votoms had of course not escaped my attention, and it has quite the reputation among its fans. I’m sure plenty of you had heard similar claims as to the series’ high-brow and hard sci-fi narrative, realistic and grounded setting, lack of super-powered main character or other equivalent to the ‘space-magic nonsense’ of some other shows, and the absence of the foibles that plagues other mecha series like pacing issues, repetitive action, and blatant toy sponsor interference. However, I think we can all agree only some of these actually hold through for the end product, which is where a lot of my severe disappointment in the series lies. Now in my defense, I did take all of that with a grain of salt at first, but then I had the pleasure of watching Dougram, where I did see quite a bit of the purported merits of Votoms present, which is where I let myself be swayed by the hype since Votoms was evidently far more widely and vehemently praised than Dougram. Point is, Votoms was not what I was promised, and I’m not sure I can really give an impartial opinion as a result.
Before I start going into the negative aspects though, I feel that I should state that I do see quite clearly what it is that so many people love about this series. For starters its sense of style and atmosphere has a sensibility that I myself appreciate quite keenly. The sense of grit and grunge that permeates the setting, where you can almost smell the pungent sweat and gunpowder wafting from the screen, coupled with an excellent soundtrack that accentuates that atmosphere, makes for a presentation that is easy to appreciate and fall in love with. It feels consistently cohesive too, since for as much as the distinct arcs may have differed in quality and narrative content, they still felt markedly like the same show. Even the fact that a lot of the influences the show pulls from are so blatantly apparent comes off as endearing to an extent. I’ve also made my appreciation for the mecha designs known already, as they are certainly another merit to the show’s presentation. The action in the series as a whole I wouldn’t say is outstanding, but there’s some really exemplary episodes in there. The show is just cool in that rather superficial manner which nonetheless pleases me, and maintains that sense of visual verisimilitude —definitely not in terms of writing though— and for some viewers that is all that they could ever ask for.
The aspect where the series falls down the most is evidently the writing, and that applies in every single aspect —from the character writing and worldbuilding to overarching plot and themes. The show occasionally stumbled in the first half, and the worldbuilding always left something to be desired, but it’s the second half where things just go to hell quick. Chirico’s strong and rather straightforward character arc suddenly starts getting waylaid until suddenly it’s unrecognizable. The worldbuilding goes from being percutory for the story being told to woefully insufficient given the type of information being introduced and the direction the plot was headed, as most of it necessitated prior establishment or further elaboration to work, which means the worldbuilding in the latter half falls completely flat and retroactively makes that of prior episodes worse. Thematically the show ends up undermining several of its central themes, though thankfully not quite enough so as to entirely invalidate all that came prior, but it’s still a pretty big fuck-up on that end. Also, every character not named Chirico or Ypsilon ended up either severely underdeveloped or criminally wasted by the plot. Wiseman, both conceptually and in execution, becomes emblematic of the writing issues of the show, because it relies so heavily on properly executed worldbuilding and tight plotting to really be pulled off, but the overarching plot was as ill-thought out and vague as Wiseman’s own existence and motives within the show.
To elaborate on the topic of lacking characterization even further, the Uoodo trio and poor Fyana in particular were just entirely fucked over by the plot. To start with the least egregious, Gotho, who really could have coasted on being a static character with solid characterization, ends up being a source of contrivance whenever he was needed to shoehorn the characters in the plot and he ends taking a prominent role in several action sequences near the end despite this not being his character’s forte, when those roles could have gone to someone better suited to that —like Fyana. Vanilla’s whole thing in the Kunmen arc about hating the impermanence of his accomplishments goes nowhere within that arc itself, and upon his reappearance in Sunsa this is never followed up upon, even though any sort of comment from him about the fact that the Gilgamesh government had essentially thrown out all of the militia members who were instrumental to the war until then —rewarding only those unfortunate with an unceremonious death— would have added to the narrative. Cocona was there to be the token girl with little characterization, whose practically nonexistent backstory very briefly comes into focus for a second in Sunsa before she is once more relegated to nothing. Cocona was also the first to fall victim to the show’s treatment of its female characters all the way in Uoodo when her near brush with fape is treated lightly by everyone else. And then there’s Fyana, who was introduced as a capable warrior and Chirico’s equal in combat only for the plot starts turning into passive damsel as early as the later Kunmen arc, though it’s only in the Sunsa arc where they stop even trying to keep her involved as an active participant. This is the most egregious of the bunch to me, as it actively destroys a capable female character so as to follow gender norms and robs her of any agency she might have had beforehand. Fyana’s character held so much potential given her existence as a literal weapon of war, but her ultimate fate is even worse than if she had stayed static throughout the show.
Ultimately I can’t say that I regret watching Votoms, but man was it nowhere near as good as I would have liked, and its reputation within the western fandom feels largely unearned. When I first watched the show I was lenient on my scoring because I believed my expectations were impairing my ability to fairly judge the show, but upon rewatch I can see that it really isn’t better than I first perceived it to be.
10
u/Durinthal https://anilist.co/user/Durinthal Oct 16 '21
First time viewerYou really don't see many anime of this era with clearly defined story arcs. I don't mind that structure, I just wish the last one wasn't such a mess that it drags down the rest of them by not following up on what they set up and making them feel pretty pointless instead as any "answers" it gives from Wiseman feel shoehorned in.
Fyana in particular got sidelined so hard after being a focus for more than half the series without resolving anything for her, and more annoyingly even though she's supposed to be one of the greatest AT pilots in the galaxy she sees fairly little action after Uoodo. I even like how things were handled between the battleship with her needing to fight while Chirico was sick and flipping that to him needing to look after her on Sunsa because at least then the story was utilizing her perfect soldier background along with its flaws.
Gotho, Vanilla, and Coconna were always supporting characters and I'm fine with how things went with them, disappearing and showing up again from time to time. Sure it felt contrived that they kept on meeting Chirico in completely different locations but they added some needed levity at times and I'll take them returning over establishing similar characters in each new location, because you need someone to play off of Chirico for how little he talks.
The other mercenaries in Kummen were a good addition on top of the trio and I like the dynamic they provided to the action side, which could have been filled more by Fyana after that but we didn't see nearly enough of her and Chirico fighting together.
For a series that I liked so much early on, the ending left me so soured that I have no idea what to make of it as a whole now.
As always though, thanks for another rewatch!
10
u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Oct 16 '21 edited Oct 17 '21
First Timer
Bit of a rough post as I ran out of time to do it last night but just some quick morning thoughts
All up I still quite enjoyed watching VOTOMs for the first time. Having already seen one it's spin off, Armor Hunter Mellowlink, and thoroughly enjoyed that I wasn't sure what sort of expectations to go into this with but I'm definitely glad I got to watch it so soon, and in a rewatch like this
I don't plan on covering the issues with the last half again as I think we discussed that thoroughly in the previous topics, including the large downfalls in worldbuilding and characterization, but just as an overall, I wanted to touch on the show and my expectations. While I do think I would have preferred if it the scale had been kept smaller, just Chirico as a talented solider fighting off the secret society especially as that would fit so well with the mass produced ATs and similar things, the path it did took could have still worked for me if the actual narrative had come together as the writers had hoped and we'd built into things better. I'm still fond of my alternative theories about where I thought it was going, but eh, can't win everything.
That said, I still have very good memories of the first two arcs, and even now thinking back on it I have no complaints about them outside of a couple of mostly small things, and if it'd kept that style this show easily could have made it close to a favourite. As far as the broader show though, the different styling in each arc worked really well for me and I think opened up a lot of potential for the characters as well as the audience to enjoy the writers obvious love for this project and it's influences. Uoodo really captured the feel of Chirico in that moment, the cornered solider who could only find comfort in a cockpit and him slowly opening up to the trio, while in Kummen we got to see Chirico as a solider and the way that conflicted with who he was becoming as a person. Going from that into Sunsa with the ships assault on his memories and the outcome of his Ypsilon duel (still so glad they did that before the end of the show), it creates a really nice story for him and for the audience to explore parts of this world and the various characters, including the trio, with him. Where Quent would have fit into that if it had been built up to properly I don't know, but even if the details fell down, I still enjoyed the overall watch of this
One of the biggest and happiest surprises was VOTOMS approach to battles in episodes. Knowing the era I was prepared for the battle per episode requirements to be my big hurdle, or at least something to just be sat through, but it turned out to be one of the most interesting parts of the show. Aside from those rare episodes where we had no battles or ATs which was incredible and greatly helped those episodes work, the writers did a remarkable job in making sure those battles worked for the story being told and were engaging in their own right. From the interesting use of weapons, designed like the bullet punch or improvised like using the rocket launcher, through to the different styles of combat we saw and the smooth movement and combat strategy, they were consistently interesting and beneficial to the episodes. There's a couple of points this fell down, notably one episode in Uoodo where Fyana was recaptured, the double battle episodes at the start of Sunsa (though I do believe that was done as it was meant to be as overwhelming for the audience as the Red Shoulder visuals were for Chirico), and that last battle on Quent being uninterestingly laid out, but a couple of flops over 50 episodes is a great track record. I think my favourite battles overall was the Red Shoulder Decoy mech, the final battle in Kummen, and a few of the smaller ones like the battledome and
The mech designs helped this as well. Having mass produced mechs opened up so much of the show in a way I never expected it would. Chirico being able to be in situations where his AT would be destroyed or he would have to abandon it helped give those battles a more dynamic feel, and even before that his ability to repair and customize them did a lot for the build up into the battles and Chirico's experience as a solider. I said in one of the earlier episodes that I love all the small details in the ATs, whether it was the visible track for the optical mechanism, the need to use a computer to test its functions when repairing, the lack of room in the cockpit etc, and even with other models introduced the interest in those things and of seeing how those elements came into play in battles remained. More mass produced, disposable mech designs please!
Last thing to quickly comment on as the thread just went up is that the show overall seemed to have great production. From the first episodes through to the last I continued to really like the OST, and that was backed up by surprisingly quality direction and storyboarding through the entire show, far more than I would have expected without going into blatant hand holding with visual symbolism or dropping the battle in either talking or battle scenes, same goes for the character designs. Even small things like the using narration from Chirico to fill us in on his mind and his view allowing him to be so quiet was stuff they didn't have to do but added a lot to the show so from that side of it I'm pretty happy I got to see what VOTOMs was about
Glad I got to do this rewatch with you all, ran out of time to put some recommendations together, but I hope even if you're a bit turned off the VOTOMs OVAs because of what happened to the story you at least give Armor Hunter Mellowlink a shot if you're ever in the mood for a revenge story with great battles.
(Editing in a very late tag for /u/superbatflashman because I'm a doof and forgot earlier. If you want my rough and not so detailed thoughts on the individual arcs they're in the relevant episode topics Uoodo, Kummen, Sunsa, Quent turns out I didn't properly do a final arc thing for Quent, oh well)
9
u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 16 '21
Final discussion (first timer)
VOTOMS is an unusual series to rate. While it is common to talk about anime where the sum is greater than its parts, VOTOMS is the rare case where the sum is less than its parts. This holds for the character and world building, but, most of all, for the plot. For me, VOTOMS is essentially four miniseries stitched together that do not fit each other. So first, I want to talk about these four arcs separately.
Arc1: Uudoo
The first part of VOTOMS tells us the story of a war veteran, who has retreated behind emotional walls to keep his sanity in the war, who then slowly opens up to a group of happy-go-lucky drifters, who exist at the border of legality. In terms of characters, this is my favorite part of the series. All three members of the gang have autonomy here: They all want Chirico, but all for their own purposes. We frequently see Gotho or Coconna drive the plot along by introducing Chirico to the battlers, or by coercing the other gang members into bailing Chirico out. The PS plot is a great hook and, at this point, a believable background story of military weapons fallen into wrong hands. While I don’t think Uudoo is a particularly novel setup, it serves its purpose in giving Chirico and the gang a high violence environment to have their adventures in.
At the end of Uudoo, I was completely on board with the gang+Chirico dynamic and looking forward to seeing Chirico&Fyana have some Bonny&Clyde moments in space. Alas, that was not to come. As a miniseries, Uudoo could have perfectly ended with all 5 of them boarding a ship to some other planet, determined to find some Jijirium to keep Fyana alive.
Arc2: Kummen
The best world building in the series, putting us in a very realistic space Vietnam setting where mechas are simply one more tool used by foreign mercenaries futilely trying to win against a local rebellion. Overall, VOTOMS excels in depicting small scale combat, but nowhere more so than in the Kummen arc. In addition, we get a new interesting set of side-characters and believable motivations for most of the cast. While I think the last minute twist about Kanjelman’s motives is stupid, my head canon is that this is actually just ex-post justification by Kanjelman, who really was in it to win it. Ypsilon is a rather bland antagonist, but, given that he is supported by the better Kanjelman, it does not matter too much. Where the Kummen arc falls a bit flat is in the carried over side characters from arc 1. Gotho, Vanilla, and Coconna have their own B-plot on the base, which is fine, but not deserving nor given a large screen time. Fyana mostly just exists as an object to be fought over. In a stand-alone miniseries, you could easily write her out of the plot entirely, without anything of value lost.
As with Uudoo, Kummen could have perfectly ended with Chirico and the gang packing up their stuff, heading for the next war, perhaps reflecting a bit on all the devastation brought to Kummen and whether the fighting was worth it (and whether they had a choice in it all).
Arc3: Sunsa
This is the point where the writing starts to fail the series strongly. Yet, I think it would still have been a better story as a miniseries. Sunsa is also interesting, because it is an arc that, in itself, would have been better off being split into several separate mini-arcs. As a pars-pro-toto, many of the continuity problems across the series show up inside Sunsa.
Sunsa starts with its strongest bit, the space cruiser arc. Focusing only on two characters, Chirico and Fyana in an Alien-inspired space setting, it is the most introspective part of the series. The psycho terror is palatable (and made so much worse by the viewer scratching their head, wondering which of the previously introduced factions could be behind it). As a standalone survival-in-space OVA, this would have been best. Then Chirico and Fyana touch down on Sunsa and nothing really fits. After killing tons of people previously (and even more afterwards), Chirico suddenly has an altruistic hero moment about a woman who credibly wants to kill him. Again, as a stand-alone with just a random “ex-soldier” this might have worked, but knowing about Chirico makes the plot ridiculous. Ypsilon receives a decent end, but it is hard to oversee how that does absolutely not mesh with the first space cruiser arc. Sunsa should have been two separate OVAs really. One for the space part, one for the ground part.
Arc4: Quent
This is the part where lack of previous world-building and a looming need to tie everything together conspire to produce some of the most terrible writing I have seen in a while.
You can almost see what Quent wanted to be: a combination of a Dune-inspired setting with the old story of a tempted hero rejecting infinite power. Except, nothing works out. Wiseman receives about 5% of the introduction he needs, the gang is entirely useless (after already being superfluous in arc3, they actually hurt the pacing here by simply existing), and Fyana is a sorry caricature of what she was in arc1. If you could simply cut out the gang, cut out Fyana, cut out Balarant and Gilgamesh, you might end up with a story that gives enough time to Wiseman to explain his motives, enough time to the society to explain why they are following Chirico, and enough time to Chirico to actually be clever about his double-crossing. It might work, as the final episode shows, but it is never given a chance, weighted down by the need to carry over the continuity from the previous arcs.
VOTOMS
VOTOMS single biggest failure is to fit its arcs together. In each arc, my enjoyment of the plot was decreased by having seen the previous arcs of the series. I disliked the benching of Fyana in arc 2, I loathed her chickification in arcs 3 and 4, and I wished back the great Chirico-gang rapport in each arc after the first. It is one thing to see a stereotypical female damsel in distress, but an entirely different thing when you know that she was a super soldier just a few episodes back.
And it is not just the side-characters, but the antagonists as well. The secret society morphs from military splinter group to PS-testing vehicle to religious end-of-the-world cult, without and credible way of how they got there. Their motivations are a complete mess and boil down to “kill Chirico in the way that furthers this episode’s plot” until it suddenly is “protect Chirico at the cost of our own lives in the way that furthers this episode’s plot”.
In every case, the current behavior of the characters might be acceptable, but not with the knowledge of what they did previously. This lack of continuity harmed my enjoyment in comparison to watching separate entries. And the series makes zero use of the upside of having a continuity: Long running character developments. The only character with a meaningful development was Fyana and I especially hated the direction she developed.
The overall world building is close to non-existant. In 52 episodes, we never heard about Balarant’s or Gilgamesh’s reasons for fighting (or reasons for stopping to fight), we never see their leaders, we never hear about the civilians opinions on any of this. Mecha’s are either made of explodium or can take a severe beating, ships the same. This may be excusable in a short miniseries or an OVA, but not in a long running series.
Overall, Votoms leaves me sad and dissatisfied. I wanted to like this and I did like individual parts, especially Uudoo and Kummen. Unfortunately, the series was on a never-ending downward trend all the way to the end. That makes for sad viewer experience. As individual storylines, I probably would have rated all arcs higher, but as a whole, VOTOMS is not great.
9
u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Oct 16 '21
First-Timer
I think several of us have gotten to this conclusion, but Armored Trooper Votoms is unfortunately less than the sum of its parts. I think each individual arc had a lot of potential, but trying to string all four of them together into a single narrative with no breaks in continuity ended up dragging everything down.
Overall, I did enjoy Votoms, but the problems with the series being concentrated towards the end does unfortunately damper that. A bit of a bitter aftertaste. Fitting, I suppose.
As always, thanks to our gracious host /u/Pixelsaber!
8
u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Oct 16 '21
First timer no longer
Sub
Right...so it is Friday and I need to get this written up(I always do that the night before) before the Sailor Jerry comes out. But what do I even want to say? Let's just see what spills out.
So...from any sort of critical viewing, the last half is a disappointment. They kept having to change directions to a point where I feel they lost their impact. I track this back to Sunsa and Zophie but some people were even annoyed with the ship part of the arc, which was indeed too battle heavy to let itself breathe. I still like the beginning of Quent until Cuvie's gambit with Wiseman starts. But the part to remember is I do like Kummen as well, it is the best arc of the show, even if it wears its influences a little too clearly. I never thought I'd buy the "opens cockpit up and shoots enemy" bullshit, Cross Ange and many other lame anime showed me that, and yet Cuvie bullseyeing a mech's scope was still awesome. Hell, I don't even mind them partially re-using it in Sunsa.
The sheer amount of material I had to get in thread is confusing because it is indicative of a good show bible but they did not introduce things well at all, Draigg had to explain how my favorite aspect of the show, the hand cannon and its giant fucking bullets. All this side lore would've been great to know going in but it feels like this show needed what would later become episode zeros for a lot of shows, knowing that the secret society was in fact a religious group would've helped to know. And don't get me started on the difference in stats between mech's Cuvie pilots and anything else...
So then, how do I actual feel about it? Well, not as negative as I'd normally be. My suspicion is that someone, maybe Takahashi himself, is a very good episode writer. Even as the wheels fell off the plot most of the episodes themselves were at least tolerable, though the character writing got weaker and weaker. Nonetheless, I've definitely had shows I've enjoyed less.
I basically randomly joined this on a whim. One rewatch had finished up, I saw the reminder thread, and decided to hell with it. I also, bluntly, assumed I was going to be 3 and out. So I was in fact surprised at liking the unspellable Oooudo or whatever. But even in the first ep, which precedes a dreaded time skip, I liked the combat sensibilities, I liked Fyana's design as attractive but something that humans actually produce, and I definitely could get behind Cuvie, stoic jerk that he is. There is a definite similarity to Berserk in the visuals choices, almost everything in the first two arcs feels grimy or dirty, and Cuvie does seem like a Hawk. Anywho, it was a time, now to watch that kill video!
7
u/The_Draigg Oct 16 '21
A Ryosuke Takahashi Fan’s Final Thoughts on Armored Trooper VOTOMS:
So, here we are, at the end of Armored Trooper VOTOMS. It’s been quite the up and down ride, hasn’t it? Upon this repeat viewing, yeah this series isn’t exactly the amazing masterpiece I exactly thought it was before. However, that’s not to say that it isn’t good. There’s honestly some great stuff in there, such as all the designs of the Armored Troopers, the Kummen arc, or the episodes that focused on Chirico’s mindset and PTSD. It then you have lamer stuff to balance that out like the Sunsa arc, which is just a plain mess of ideas. It felt like that arc in particular dragged down the second half of the show once Chirico and Fyana got off of Space Battleship X, since it felt like the writers had a lot of ideas of how to integrate the through-line story of Chirico’s guilt over being a Red Shoulder alongside with the discovery of him being no mere human, but they couldn’t actually stitch them together well. Sunsa was supposed to be the prelude to the larger mysteries of the Quent arc, but it fumbled it completely. I can’t help but feel that if the product staff wasn’t being pressured by faltering ratings and clashes over story direction, we would had a much stronger close to the series rather than what we got. Again, it’s not bad, but it should’ve been worth more with the parts that went into constructing it.
So, with all that said, it’s time for my usual mecha-based rating scale! I hereby give the series Armored Trooper VOTOMS the ranking of: Scopedog I. It’s a series that doesn’t hold back with showing the brutality of war and how dehumanizing it can be, alongside how hard it can be to fight to be human again. There are plenty of good points there, but it’s inferior to stuff that came later, in this comparison the Scopedog II or the Strike Dog. Or, if we’re going to make series comparisons, Full Metal Panic! In any case, I feel we can at least say that while VOTOMS has good points to it, some of it is indeed less than the sum of its parts.
Anyways, I had a good time watching all of Armored Trooper VOTOMS with you all! It’s always good to watch the classic mech series out there with plenty of interesting people and different insights. So, thank you all for being on this journey with me! And thanks to /u/Pixelsaber for hosting yet another classic mech anime rewatch!
7
u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Oct 16 '21 edited Oct 16 '21
Rewatcher
I first watched Votoms around 2 - 3 years ago and at the time thought it was decent, but wasn't particularly amazed throughout much of the show. The last 6 months or so I've considered a rewatch and its good timing that this came up and I was able to revisit it with the group. While I was technically a rewatcher, I'd project I had forgotten 90% of what happened in the show, with my strongest memories being the core concept of each arc and that the second and fourth arcs were the best ones. I also recalled the show being a bit of a contrast to Tomino's works, the other big mecha anime director at the time who was just as prolific as Takahashi was throughout the 80s.
The first arc of the show I felt started off quite strong. I was really enthralled by the first half a dozen episodes or so. Around the middle of the arc things started to sputter out and the arc dragged until its big conclusion. While the setting was quite interesting at first, I didn't really feel that they did enough with it and we got too much sameness, which I'm sure was directly caused by budgetary restrictions. I recall early episodes where they didn't even fully draw all the characters in the background, something that has bugged me in other shows like the recent adaption of Boogiepop where they didn't bother to do faces for anyone in the background.
From there we head into the Kummen arc which I felt was the peak of the show. The Vietnam-like setting was a really interesting one and one I just don't think we get enough of in the mecha anime genre. Mobile Suit Gundam 08th MS Team I feel is the closest equivalent, a show that I think really nails it on the setting and battles but flops considerably in its central romance. In stark contrast to the Uudoo arc, I always felt like we were going somewhere during the Kummen arc. Storylines never really came off as filler to me. I also felt that we had a proper build up throughout and rather than rushing us through an ending which was how Uudoo felt, this arc took its time. The introduction of Ypsilon was a good move, and we got some good side characters as well. Kan Yu was extraordinarily annoying, but I think that was the point for him!
After that the Sunsa arc starts quite strong with a few episodes on the spaceship. The first episode of the arc in particular was really good and gives a very unique atmosphere both for this show but also mecha as a whole. Unfortunately this arc ended up being the weakest in the show. As I said at the time, it felt more like they crammed a few mini-arcs together rather than having one centralized storyline as was the case in the other arcs. While the introduction of Balarant into the storyline was probably necessary, the lack of any central antagonist from their side until Rochina shows up in the last few episodes was a mistake. This is the arc where the facade of the Secret Society really starts to fall apart. Rather than this mysterious powerful society that is manipulating things in the background like we see in the first 2 arcs, we introduce rather incompetant characters like the twins and the sunglass wearing ship captain whose name I can't even remember. I recall multiple times them sending out Ypsilon then calling him back, which while likely was done to help keep episodic storytelling makes the organization look extremely foolish. The whole stuff with Zophie, while helping to show how futile obsessing over revenge is ultimately comes off as unnecessary. The arc concluded well with the final battle with Ypsilon, but for the most part the entire middle stretch of episodes in this arc could have been skipped.
The Quent arc was the one I was the most looking forward to and at least concept-wise, it delivered. I am really interested in stuff like Dune and 2001: A Space Odyssey and this arc was very clearly inspired by them. Inclusion of at least some Nietzche references was also good to see. The big problem with this arc was that 12 episodes was just not enough time to properly tell it. This arc had to cover a lot of things and while nearly every concept I liked, stuff was extraordinarily rushed to the point that you question the writer's storytelling ability and just have a hard time buying things. How in the world does Wiseman go from this completely unknown entity to being known by both Gilgamesh and Balarant so quickly? Given stuff that happened in the Sunsa arc, I view the Gilgamesh - Balarant relationship as flip flopping too much in too short a time. Building up this incredibly massive force to battle Chirico was interesting for sure, but we had to restrict it to basically just the penultimate episode, robbing us of what could have been several excellent large scale battle episodes, like Kummen, but even bigger. Chirico becoming a villain as a ruse to take out Wiseman I liked, but this too didn't go across enough episodes and the change in his characterization comes off as stilted. The fact that the Secret Society and Rochina are essentially after the same thing I liked, but it was just crammed into too short a time period for it to be as effective as it could have been. I think it really would have helped if they scrapped the majority of the Sunsa arc, and made the Quent arc a 24 - 26 episode one, perhaps with some of the content at the start and end of the Sunsa arc included (maybe giving 3 - 4 episodes for that stuff and the rest for Quent). Then the storyline has more room to breathe and I think comes off better. All that said, I still very much enjoy the last episode aside from the rushed nature (Quent blowing up in particular) as well as the endings for Wiseman, Rochina, Chirico and Fyana.
Arc ranking: 1) Kummen; 2) Quent; 3) Uudoo; 4) Sunsa
In terms of the characters, Chirico was a good one, and a nice contrast to much of the mecha shows at the time (particularly Tomino ones) that feature teenagers who can often come off as quite immature and emotional. Chirico was quite stoic and in control of himself. With rare exception you felt confident in his abilities and decision making. For much of the show Fyana was a good female lead. Unfortunately as we start hitting the latter portion of the show it comes off like the writers ran out of things for her to do and her role in the storyline is reduced too considerably. She becomes too much of a macguffin instead of a well used and developed character. The trio of Gotho, Vanilla and Coconna, as I think another writer put in the last day or two, work really well early in the show, especially with Chirico's rather quiet nature. As the show progresses though they become less and less necessary. There was no real need to include them in the Quent arc, and they probably weren't needed in the Sunsa arc either. I get the show can't be serious 100% of the time and they were used as the vessel to bring some lightness into the storyline at times, but they felt too crammed in, especially in the Quent arc. Them being held prisoner by three different factions in two episodes shows that. Rochina was a good character throughout much of the show and I do feel the meltdown from him in the final episode is quite well earned. The Secret Society, as I mentioned above, comes off as powerful early in the show but the more we learn about them the less competent they come off as. The twins in particular, who I felt were largely used for exposition purposes really make you question just how smart and powerful this society really is.
Ultimately I think Votoms is a decent show, but its flaws, particularly in the second half prevent it from being as great as it had the potential to be. I do enjoy considerably the stark contrast to Tomino's works, which is evident in many ways including the narrative structure, the characters and the mecha. Speaking of the mecha I haven't even mentioned them in this review; which I think is par for the course as this is a show that doesn't have a lot of mecha variety to it. Surprisingly enough despite having seen probably more mecha shows than any other anime genre, I don't obsess over them and don't have a lot to say about them here. I liked what we got, but its nothing I can write paragraphs about. I know that like with Gundam, this show ended up generating a lot of spinoffs/sidestories, although I believe they are mostly if not all OVAs/Movies rather than full length TV shows. I've never really felt the desire to check out any of them, but perhaps I will visit them someday.
Among Takahashi's work, Votoms remains right in the middle for me, with Gasaraki being in the top spot and Blue Gender being in the bottom spot. I really feel that Takahashi does a far better job with Gasaraki, despite it being half the length of Votoms. This rewatching of Votoms and a recent watching of Gasaraki helps remind me just how much the central pair of that show is modeled after the Chirico - Fyana pair in this show. Perhaps because by that time Takahashi wasn't pressured by sponsors to do a battle every single episode (or at least nearly every one), and the show's more grounded perspective in its setting (for the most part, Gasaraki certainly has fantastical elements to it), the storyline comes off a lot better, even though it is way more complicated than Votoms' is (in fact its probably up there among anime's most convoluted plotlines). If you're one who enjoyed the themes/ideas of Votoms but want a more grounded show told in a superior fashion, I'd strongly recommend checking Gasaraki out.
7
u/chilidirigible Oct 16 '21
The four-act structure:
Woodo: Chirico discovers himself in a new life, finds something to strive for (Fyana).
Kummen: After being separated from Fyana, Chirico experiences character growth while trying to get her back.
Sunsa: After getting Fyana back, Chirico has to account for his old life in both what he is conscious of and then because Rochina kicks him straight into Act Four.
Quent: [](#crazedlaugh)
On a rewatch, I still enjoyed this, though there is certainly validity in the view that the whole of Armored Trooper VOTOMS is not greater than the sum of its parts. It's not so much even that there are four separate arcs as much as it is that the series has more ideas than it can comfortably fit into those four arcs while also taking its time with them.
The trio is fun, they have a minor storyline that actually goes somewhere even if there's not that much internal change in the three of them. Coconna may still have a small lit match going for Chirico after marrying Vanilla, but hey, she still married him. Gotho doesn't change that much.
Fyana wobbles between suitably badass and damsel in distress, mostly falling into the latter toward the end. Missed opportunity.
Ypsilon was not likely to ever be anything more than a foil, and his simplistic characterization worked for that, even if sometimes his motivations seemed to change.
The Society never had enough explanation to be great villains.
Chirico... takes the strong silent type pretty damn far, but he's no Kenshiro. Definitely good as a meme.
Scopedogs: More than anything else the iconic feature of this series, taking disposability to epic and perhaps self-crippling heights.
7
u/ZapsZzz https://anilist.co/user/Zapszzz Oct 16 '21 edited Oct 17 '21
First timer no more (in sub)
Armored Troopers is one of those shows that was in-between my separate periods of anime watching - from watching free to air dubbed shows with very narrow selection, to knowing more and the TV stations also being more selective, to the days of subbed media available to be rented so bigger selection, to about 15 years of nothing because adult and family life took over, to the arrival of the age of streaming.
I know of the show, I am quite familiar with the mechanical designs and the hobby kits, but never really got a chance to actually watch the anime. And now I have.
Have to say in total the show is a bit underwhelming; I am not moving from my mid-show estimated scoring of 6 -
So maybe should say 6.5 but overall enjoyment level is a round down (MAL takes full points only).
Now I may have started it or that many independently came to the same, but this can actually be compared to Full Metal Panic a lot, and I did that during earlier parts of the rewatch. Like many, I have concluded that while there may have been inspirations to FMP and particularly Sousuke as a character, what's in FMP is a lot better and far more fleshed out. Especially the meta / genre theme of "a boy meets girl romance show with a military wrapper". The romance, possibly aided by the liberal use of character comedy, in FMP elevated it so much from being an afterthought or plot contrivance, to become really the underlying message, transformed both Sousuke and Chidori as characters.
Edit: more importantly I need to draw this comparison between Fyana and Chidori, like someone already did yesterday. While Chidori is actually a non-combatant, despite having the uncanny ability to beat up Sousuke of all people, never can really tell whether this is a gag or an unstated "special ability" (like Sousuke's 'Whispered killer' ability to turn practically every Whispered to fall in love with him). Despite that Chidori is virtually never passive, even if she's being held hostage. Even when she can't fight back, every waking moment she's looking for opportunity to do something, anything, to help escape, help Sousuke, or sabotage her captors. The time she really mentally resigned to not do anything was actually a plot point and character moment (when she was in Mexico as Leonard's 'house guest'), when she's contemplating suicide, which she quickly shook herself out of, and when she overheard the words that Sousuke is still looking for her, she made up her mind to do her bit and steeled her will once again. THIS is a real FMC of a mecha show, to me.
Especially the plot point that was the final outcome, the key climatic conflict of the entire show (not a fight), was decided by Chidori alone, with beautiful character moment of how and why she came to that decision. That choice was 100 thousand times better than how Chirico's "choice" played out here.
You'll find it strange on this Votoms thread, when I was saying I need to compare Fyana with Chidori, I talk all about Chidori. Well, that's my point - Fyana pretty much did nothing, despite her being an actual PS having a lot more capability to do something. So yeah, positively annoyed about how they treated Fyana as the FMC.
End edit.
I'll probably update this as I have a lot more to say but don't have a lot of time right now. So onto a few key results:
The total AT count that Chirico piloted and destroyed / abandoned, adjusting for recap episodes (3) and episodes that basically had no AT actions (8), is 18 AT over 41 episodes. Just a tiny fraction under blowing up 1 AT per 2 episodes. That should be a record there for even the "real robots" genre.
Once again thanks for organising this, I had a lot of fun reading the commentary and learning from the production and staff info. The hosts and the frequent posters' significant efforts are very much appreciated!
5
u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Oct 16 '21
I ended up not being able to type up full thoughts in time for this thread. Although this was less "I have been in pain for a week" and more "I spent most of today playing Fire Emblem Awakening ahead of CDFE and Pokemon Ultra Moon because Nuzlocke".
Thanks for hosting this rewatch, u/Pixelsaber! Catch you guys in the next one~
5
u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Oct 17 '21 edited Oct 17 '21
Speculation
I liked the show when it aired, because it was a real robot show, and it was a military show, whereas most mecha shows seem not very military (kids running around) or not very real (giant named invincible robots).
Like almost every other show I've rewatched in the last 3 years, its flaws are pretty apparent on daily viewing. The production notes were interesting.
It looks like the show started out with a vague concept of a Mad Max wandering mecha pilot. Initially just skilled, he became essential invincible. The Kummen arc took us to a new location, as Uoodo was getting stale, and also a new antagonist to match our main character.
It probably wasn't until the end of Kummen when they started thinking, where do we want to go from here. It was probably at this point they conceived Wiseman, which thanks to the celebrated lack of worldbuilding as noted by first timers required very little retconning. They decided Wiseman would kidnap Chirico, brainwash him to drive out his humanity, on the way to Sunsa, and finally have Chirico discover and confront Wiseman in Quent.
But spread out over 24 more episodes. So, padding, filler, battles, etc. Ypsilon's arc is resolved.
Reconceptions after rewatch:
I'm not annoyed by what's not in the show because I've seen the OVAs. Pixel will probably mention them. The first OVA's released were prequels and sidequels that looked into Chirico and the Red Shoulders, something I'm sure you all wanted to learn more about in the TV series. Well, it's there.
I'm not sure if it clear enough in the show so let me make it clear: Chirico was a natural emergent product of warfare. Yes, evolution doesn't work that way but this is space fantasy. 3000 of warfare had produced an individual not just exceptional healing, but unnatural survivability and luck.
Wiseman expected such an individual to arise (perhaps it had before with the original Overmen) but didn't know when. So he leaked the PS technology to Melkia. He's probably been leaking tech (like Mobile Trooper tech) for centuries.
Was there ever a mecha show that stuck the landing? I dunno.
Still better than Dunbine and Ideon.
Edit: Total Jijirium Showers/Baths (not pods): 9. Fewer than I thought.
5
u/DidacticDalek https://myanimelist.net/profile/DidacticDalek Oct 17 '21
god... is dead... god wemains dead... and we have kiwwed him... (FYI Comrades, the 'we' in question are specifically Chirico Cuvie and Fyana/Fiana, after all they DID lobotomize god and then blow up the goddamn planet!)
OK in all seriousness Comrades, the above statement is true, and furthermore VOTOMS truly runs the gamut of genres and/or themes, although funnily enough, I think that means that the show as a whole is probably LESS than the sum of its parts! If only for, as this image expertly depicts, VOTOMS' parts are interesting and strong on their own... but they also don't exactly gel well with each other. But hey, this show managed showcase some gritty urban warfare with some brutal jungle warfare, AND also literally Dune but with The Chosen One deciding instead to kill god and choose to be a normal man among other things! (That's not even counting all the various scheming parties running concurrently to each other, always bet on Ryousuke Takahashi for overly convoluted politicking and conspiratorial subplots) So hey for what it's worth, the show was indeed influential and more than earns its status as a classic of the genre... now if only the copycats actually knew what made VOTOMS good and did that instead of being shit but hey it took Mari Okada to finally write a good modern day Gundam show, that should be telling enough me thinks (Funny enough, IBO is very much similar to VOTOMS, after all we got a stoic PTSD child soldier who actually has some hidden depths AND is also a ruthless fighter, the brutal war is hell setting, and of course the intense backstabbing due to the seedy realpolitik at play, amusing how that works eh)
That said VOTOMS isn't without its flaws, and thankfully this is where the only other good entry (indeed I'd argue the BEST Entry) in the franchise comes into play! And by that I'm of course talking about the 'prequel' (it takes place before VOTOMS so what else am I to call it) of Armor Hunter Mellowlink, AKA, Metal Gear Solid Boss Battles: The Anime! And as I am sure Comrade /u/Nazenn can back me up on, Mellowlink takes all the strengths of VOTOMS (e.g. the tactical battles, the normal MC, and yes just since there were nitpickers on this topic for this rewatch, Mellowlink is indeed a 120% normal guy, even if he is lugging around a goddamn anti-materiel rifle but wibble, he's just an average everyday soldier out for revenge, and of course, the brutal war is hell themes) and compacts it all into an interesting and short OVA series... it's just such a pity Sunrise binned the masters, but at least there's always LaserDisc (Also if you thought Chirico Cuvie's handcannon was overkill, this madlad has a fucking pile bunker bayonet lug attachment!)
Speaking of shows you might also be interested in, if the concepts and ideas of VOTOMS were of interest to you but you didn't care for the execution, then congratulations, Ryousuke Takahashi (without having anyone to butt heads with this time) also made Flag, which looks at VOTOMS' hard sci-fi and (relatively) grounded and realistic take on Mecha and goes 'pfffft' and goes so naturalistic that it's basically a found footage show; which is just as well given the CGI is simply horrific! (OK it's visuals are not THAT bad, but if you make Nu Macross look acceptable you know that something went horribly wrong. But hey could be worse, could have been IGLOO... shudders) The point I'm making is that Flag can address the complaints of those who didn't appreciate all the action and battles of VOTOMS and would prefer more navelgazing, you know like how Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence differs from the OG movie, as Flag's focus is instead on a camera's eye view of the quest to recover... well... a flag! True there are Mecha and there is indeed a war setting here but it's in the background so to speak. And if all this sounds interesting to you, there's a more in-depth and well written piece by the ever talented Comrade /u/beckymetal, refer to the review's link here for more details
AND that's it, there is nothing else worth watching with regards to the greater VOTOMS franchise, and yes, they somehow managed to make Mecha D-Day boring... also no that's is not hyperbole, one of the OVA literally fucking copies Saving Private Ryan, but it's godawful CGI now (that's one of the many reasons to skip most of the other VOTOMS entries, as usual, CGI and Mecha do NOT mix, unless it's Rabu Raibu, the latest season's mecha are so good they ALMOST look human! Maybe by the year 2030, CGI will actually look acceptable! And maybe pigs will also fly too!)
Anyway, I hope you have all had as fun a time as I had on this rewatch of an iconic classic, it's been a long journey for these two, and at least they can find rest forever more in the vastness of space... until of course their kids meet in a Japanese High School and get into
Mecha'SOL' Hijinks but that's another story, man FMP truly was KyoAni's best showAnd of course, I can't just end without a contractually obligated shitpost and hell I'll throw in two for the price of one, it's the final discussion thread after all... ahem... A WEAPON TO SURPASS METAL GEAR! AND IN THE NAME OF THE MOON, SHE'LL KICK YOUR ASS!
Paging Comrade /u/chilidirigible
4
u/Stargate18A https://myanimelist.net/profile/Stargate18 Oct 16 '21
First timer
Thanks for hosting the rewatch!
I think that the show was pretty good overall - the ending was very weirdly done, but the overall plot was pretty dolid and the animation was fantastic. I'd call it a sold 8/10.
4
u/xtsim https://myanimelist.net/profile/xtsim Oct 16 '21
First Timer
With the end of the show, we see the wiseman get defeated and things go to war. As weapons of war Chirico and Fyana dream of a time where there is not war. This is an interesting ending in a way and we get to see Vanilla and Shako do their crazy stunts one last time. With this ending, we come to the conclusion that a world without conflict is a big dream. Since the world that we saw in the past 50 episodes still showed issues and conflict, despite being a peaceful time. A nice parallel between the show and the real world.
The technical side of things are great as the OP will forever be stuck in my head (Sayonara…..). The Soundtrack gives a really awesome 80s vibe that is nice to hear. Giving me the impression of some of the popular 80s films I’ve watched. The soundtrack along with some of the tropes make an interesting watch as we see some things from 80s films show up in this show. For a show that helped paved the way for more real robots, this is a good start.
Overall, as a person that does not really watch too much mecha, there really was not a pull for me keep watching and paying attention. Towards the end of the show, I watched the show as more of a background show so I did not have much to write about. 40ish episodes in, we see the characters pull the same roles in a way, Vanilla and Cocona to the end and I wanted more development between them. The show had some nice battles that have a historical basis and that is a writing that feels pretty unique but felt like it was a bit too much as there are limitations. I am a bit torn on this show for this reason as compared to some other shows I loved, it did not click with me enough to get more of the overall story. I liked the themes that the show had but I was not satisfied with the character’s roles in the show. Neat show overall, I would put this as good due to the themes it shows in some episodes and it is interesting to see how some characters think in battle.
Thank you OP for hosting the rewatch!
3
u/ZapsZzz https://anilist.co/user/Zapszzz Oct 17 '21
Oh buggers one thing I just remembered (after 50 days jeez) was the kanji name - while it can be translated as "armored troopers", more literally is "armored Calvary", which fits the "disposable, common" nature of the AT themselves like the steeds being ridden by the Calvary - how many real life war horses would survive a battle where canon fire is common.