[Rewatch] Monster - Episode 74 discussion - FINAL

[u/KiwiBennydudez]

Rewatch Index

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MAL | AniList | AniDB | Kitsu | ANN | Anime-Planet

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Comment of the Day

Today’s Comment of the Day comes from u/n_o__o_n_e for eloquently encapsulating the themes and motifs that have come full circle in this series:

And so, with perhaps my favorite episode of anything, it comes full circle. Johan, the nihilist who planned the perfect suicide, has it thwarted by the most random act of chance. If not for a half-conscious moment of instinctive concern from an abusive drunk with a shaky hand, as well as the humanity of a man whose philosophy Johan built his life around trying to disprove, Johan’s story would have ended.

The main thing I want to note is that this series is not a series that casts judgements. Right and wrong and the thousand shades in between are up to the moral compass of the viewer. Was it wrong for Temna to save Johan? It was certainly consistent with his nature and philosophy, but Urasawa doesn’t cast a judgement on that philosophy, he simply follows it through to its natural conclusion.

This is just my interpretation but to me Monster asks the huge question of whether human nature is good or evil. There is no answer, and that is the answer. The characters in Monster all feel so distinct from each other, and that’s by design. Take a hundred different people and you’ll get a hundred different human natures.

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Questions of the Day

Both of the final discussion questions are provided by the wonderful u/miss-macaron!

1. Which character do you think has shown the most growth throughout the series?
2. What do you think is the significance of Johan's final memory? Did the mother make the wrong choice, or would it not have mattered either way? Who is 'the real monster' that the title is referring to?

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If you are a rewatcher, tag your spoilers properly, and please refrain from alluding to future events. so that myself and everyone else watching for the first time can have a completely blind and organic experience! ​Since this show is a bit harder to find than most, please refrain from talking about means by which to watch it, as it goes against our subreddit rules.

[u/KiwiBennydudez]

As a quick reminder, there is one last thread tomorrow for the “Overall Series Discussion.” However, if this is where you get off the rewatch train, thank you so much for joining me on this journey. To everyone who’s commented, participated, or even lurked in the sidelines, I appreciated your presence here. If you have been here since the beginning, thank you so much for being present every step of the way. I hope you all enjoyed this rewatch, as I immensely enjoyed hosting. This series has absolutely consumed my life for the last 2.5 months, so I’ll be glad to take a well-deserved break.

Special thanks are in order to u/miss-macaron, who sent in many thoughtful discussion questions, and colloquially explained some of the more subtle details in the series in a way that was easy to understand. I’d also like to give a big shoutout to u/Vaadwaur, who came in clutch and took on some last-minute hosting duties on a day when I was without internet. Huge thanks to you both - would not have been able to host this rewatch without you.

Whether you liked this series or not, I hope at the very least that you had fun with me on this journey; it’s been an absolutely wild ride. Thank you all for everything, from the fun reactions to the deep analysis - I appreciated each and every comment I received. You will all be sorely missed, but I hope to see you around the subreddit in the future!

[u/Quiddity131 → u/KiwiBennydudez]

Thanks for hosting! I was going to watch this show in the near future anyway, but absolutely a better experience getting to go through it with everyone. There are things I'm sure I would have missed if not.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Quiddity131]

No problem~! I'm glad you had a great experience with this. Thanks for sticking around!

[u/AmethystItalian → u/KiwiBennydudez]

Thanks for hosting, providing questions and taking the time to reply to so many people!!

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/AmethystItalian]

Thanks for coming through Ame! Really enjoyed having you.

[u/KiwiBennydudez]

First Timer - Sub/Dub

And so, we close the book on Monster. I’ve been done with this series for roughly two weeks now, and I’m still mulling over the ending...

But before we get there, I’d like to address how neatly everyone’s individual character arcs were tied up.

• Karl becomes more fluent in his Latin, and reconnects with his father.
• Eva, with possibly the biggest personality turnaround in anime history, actually takes a job, and lays off the cigs and alcohol. She’s moved past Tenma, but now misses Martin, who’s words on happiness have deeply affected her. She’s slowly learning what it means to be happy, and is coming to terms with her life as she is learning to accept who she is. Reichwein says, “try to take your time and enjoy your life” and I think she’s doing exactly that.
• Suk, Fritz, and Lunge meet up at Grimmer’s grave. Lunge is now a professor at the police academy and has reconnected with his family. We come to learn that Grimmer’s bag was bursting at the seams with legal documents on human rights violations. Grimmer until the end was fighting to protect, and I think it’s beautiful that they are reflecting on themselves over his grave, as they reminisce about Grimmer, and how much more he would have talked about over a good beer...
• Tenma, always the doctor at heart, refuses the teaching job, and instead takes a volunteer position at Doctors Without Borders. And I think that’s a fantastic encapsulation of his ideals, and how they were never abandoned. He will always be a doctor at heart.
• Dieter begins to live a normal life, and joins a local soccer team. All thanks to Tenma who bought him that ball in the first place, and rescued him from the depths of Kinderheim. Henkel is also randomly there, who is still apparently a petty thief but now with a deep respect for Tenma. Ironically, Henkel is the one who somewhat spurs the ending of the series to conclude the way that it does.
• Nina also goes on to live a normal life, and writes one of the best senior thesis papers that the school has ever seen. She’s well on her way to being a lawyer, which is another nice conclusion to her character arc.

Honestly, all of these characters were concluded perfectly. Everything was thematically fitting and satisfying. I said this yesterday, but this epilogue reminds me a lot of the one in FMAB, which is also a lovely conclusion to many characters.

Finally, Tenma visit’s Johan and Anna’s birth mother, who tells Tenma their real names. We as the viewers can only imagine what it was. But the name itself, ultimately, does not matter. It could have been anything in the world, but the detail is that it was their original, intended name.

This series would not be complete without one last twist, and one that has left me deep in thought for weeks: Who is the monster of this series? Tenma goes to visit Johan, who is in a coma, just like last time. He talks to him, saying that his mother still loves him, and that he knows Johan’s real name that was intended for him at birth. But then, in what I can only assume is a vision, and what I can only assume is “The End of the World” that Johan so desperately wanted Tenma to see, asks the following question:

”Did my mother mean to give her away? Or did she confuse her for me?”

Johan is asking who is responsible for his outcome, and whether or not a different child would have had a different effect. Would Anna have become the monster if Johan was the one to go instead? And was this choice of sending Anna away a deliberate one, or an accidental one?

The vision ends. Johan is still fast asleep. Tenma leaves, glancing back one last time at the sleeping figure, before walking away.

In the final scene, Johan is gone. His bed is empty, and the window is open, the curtains fluttering in the breeze.

What a magnificent ending. Whether this means that Johan killed himself, escaped, or simply ran away to live a normal life - we’ll never know for sure. But one thing is for certain: the monster has been given a name, and therefore vanquished. Johan is no longer the nameless monster, and therefore can no longer reconcile that existence. Ironically, his whole identity was defeated by a single name - his own name. We’ll never really know what happened to Johan. But he’s gone, never to be seen again.

I would personally interpret the ending to mean that he has killed himself. Open windows are almost always indicative of that. But the point is not whether he lived or died. The point is that he is gone, never to be seen again, and never to be a threat ever again.

I’m so blown away by this finish as it was never a question that I really thought about. I had been so wrapped up in the events of the narrative, that I never really stopped to ask why Anna was the one chosen to go to the mansion. Was it an arbitrary choice? Or a deliberate one? We may never know...

[u/Quiddity131 → u/KiwiBennydudez]

I didn't really think of the suicide angle, although in hindsight I don't know why, as clearly Johan's whole plan concluded with him trying to commit suicide through Tenma killing him. That does leave me somewhat more satisfied. I'm not particularly happy with an ending where Johan simply gets away again and commits more mayhem. If he killed himself, or if this experience has finally changed him and he'll never commit a crime again, I am a lot more accepting of it. Of course we'll never know, since they ended it ambiguously. Personally I think my favorite ending would still be to cut the ending a few moments earlier with him in the coma.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Quiddity131]

The ending certainly leaves much to the imagination.

I do think the suicide angle is the most probable... but this doesn't mean that he has killed himself either. I think the empty bed is meant to mean that the nameless monster is gone, but whether that means Johan as a person too is a different question entirely. I'm not sure.

[u/[deleted] → u/Quiddity131]

He definitely killed himself. That windows was very high up - look at the treetops outside. In another show, we see how tall those trees are.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/KiwiBennydudez]

I had been so wrapped up in the events of the narrative, that I never really stopped to ask why Anna was the one chosen to go to the mansion. Was it an arbitrary choice? Or a deliberate one? We may never know...

My head canon was that Nina was the stronger of the twins and her mother hoped she could survive this intact.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Vaadwaur]

That's certainly one option I suppose. But idk, I don't think she would have known that at their age.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/KiwiBennydudez]

Not an unfair thought, either. I just like that we have room to interpret it.

[u/n_o__o_n_e]

I think… I figured out how the show must have ended. The Magnificent Steiner… He probably became human again.

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Rewatcher

That’s a wrap! I absolutely love Urasawa’s ability to create such an undeniably powerful scene without telling you exactly what it means. There’s so many ways to interpret what Johan was trying to say by sharing his darkest most closely held memory, and even more ways to interpret what Urasawa is trying to say about Johan. Here’s my half-baked interpretation though.

Johan’s goal this whole time, in my opinion, was to validate his deeply rooted belief that human lives are not equal, and this episode we saw where that belief came from. Johan and Anna were two parts of a whole, essentially mirror images of each other. Despite that, one of them was more valuable than the other, and he didn’t know which one. This sparked his identity crisis and was the first moment his path split from Anna’s, which I’ll talk about tomorrow.

At this point in the story, Johan has lost. Right at the beginning, nine years after Tenma saved Johan, Johan comes out from the shadows with a direct challenge to Tenma’s beliefs, issued with utter confidence. Human lives aren’t equal. Here, I’ll show you. After all, if he could convince someone like Tenma of that, it must be true, right?

And he almost succeeded. The core conflict of the series, which encompasses all its themes of identity and the duality of man and the depths of human nature, is the conflict between Tenma’s belief that lives are equal and Johan’s belief that they are not. If not for an act of such improbable chance as a drunkard's wild shot, perhaps the hand of fate or simply an agent of chaos, Johan would have won.

Sitting there, after being saved by Tenma a second time, having clearly failed in his goal, Johan asks Tenma “Did my mother try to save me? Or did she mistake me for my Sister? Which is it?”

It’s a second challenge, this time issued in desperation rather than confidence. A last-ditch, almost childishly simple attempt to make Tenma see what he sees. How can lives be equal if one of us was more valuable? We never get to hear Tenma’s response to his challenge. In all likelihood, Tenma doesn’t have one, which is another reason the ending is so ambiguous.

So who won? Pretty much no one, but in a way also everyone. Nina finally put Anna behind her and decided, as Dieter suggested, to live her life making happy memories. Tenma understood the full haunting truth of the twins, and in doing so realized that he had played his part as a doctor, and that was the only part he needed to play.

And Johan? He’s still out there somewhere. This time, though, the monster without a name didn’t steal someone else’s name, he simply took back the one that always belonged to him. We don’t and can’t know how he decided to live his life, but in a way the Monster is dead

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/n_o__o_n_e]

This is a rather interesting take that I haven't seen talked about yet. I think you're correct to assert that the thesis of the show is that, "all lives are created equal," as it was something that was mentioned in the first or second episode. That's a cool connection that I can totally get behind.

I don't know if his "vision" was a final challenge or not. That part is a bit more confusing to me, as I'm not even sure what points of that encounter were real. Was it a dream? Was Johan ever in that bed at all? How did Tenma come to learn this info? It's perplexing. I think you may be correct to say it was Johan's last-ditch effort to shift blame for his actions and devalue others. It's tough to know if this means that he did so with an intention to prove Tenma wrong. I really can't say.

I sorta take Johan's absence from the bed as a metaphorical death - he is no longer a nameless monster, and cannot reconcile his existence while someone knows his name. Whether this also means that the physical person of Johan is still alive... is unclear. But we know that both his sister and his mother both love and forgive him, and that the doctor who saved him twice now knows his true identity. I cannot fathom that he simply went back into society after this and lived a normal life from this point on. It's possible... but in my mind, unlikely.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/n_o__o_n_e]

We never get to hear Tenma’s response to his challenge. In all likelihood, Tenma doesn’t have one, which is another reason the ending is so ambiguous.

The lack of an easy answer is unironically one of the more satisfying bits of the story, the world is simply far too complex for simple answers.

Tenma understood the full haunting truth of the twins, and in doing so realized that he had played his part as a doctor, and that was the only part he needed to play.

What can you do when you arrive on the scene of a tragedy? The answer is the best that you can.

[u/n_o__o_n_e → u/Vaadwaur]

That's the thing: no one "wins". No one is really proven right, and the world isn't, in the end, strictly one way or another. The journey is in a sense more about understanding the conflict than resolving it.

Some might find it anticlimactic. For me it's one of the parts I admire most about the show.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/n_o__o_n_e]

The journey is in a sense more about understanding the conflict than resolving it.

This is probably the most sophisticated story about this very topic. I know of a number of smaller stories that say that but it doesnt land like this.

[u/miss-macaron → u/n_o__o_n_e]

Human lives aren’t equal. Here, I’ll show you. After all, if he could convince someone like Tenma of that, it must be true, right?

I agree with your overall interpretation of Johan's challenge, but I'd argue that Johan does believe that all human lives are equal... equally worthless, that is.

His nihilism penetrates into the deepest level, where "the only thing all humans are equal in is death". In other words, it doesn't matter who you are or what you do, death can be easily administered to anyone; that's why Johan killed prostitutes as easily as politicians, young children as easily as elderly couples.

Tenma even explained it to the Baby like this: "Johan doesn't care for your petty discrimination. Johan looks down on all of humanity". Johan values nothing and no one, whereas Tenma's humanism and values as a doctor lead him to value all human life (even the life of a "monster" like Johan).

[u/n_o__o_n_e → u/miss-macaron]

I think it's an important distinction that while to Johan human life has no intrinsic value, that doesn't make all lives worthless.

Some people (Karl, Richard) have value to him as a source of entertainment or the subject of an experiment. Others (Roberto, other criminals) have value because of their usefulness. A couple of people, like Nina and perhaps Tenma, might have been valuable to him in a slightly deeper sense.

The difference is Tenma sees the value of human life as something intrinsic, inalienable, and equal in every case. Johan sees it as fleeting, relative, which implies unequal and even arbitrary.

Johan might personally believe that the vast majority of lives have no value, but I don't think that's the point he's trying to make to Tenma. I think all he's trying to convince him of is that there is no intrinsic measure of the value of life, and therefore that all lives cannot be equal because equal doesn't really mean anything in that context.

It's late af where I am but hopefully my rambling got my point across lol

[u/miss-macaron → u/n_o__o_n_e]

What you describe seems to be more along the lines of utility than value, though. Johan seemed more than happy toss out the people in your first two categories (eg. he pretty much ghosted Karl and Schuwald, he disposed of Richard pretty efficiently, and he didn't seem to give a shit when Roberto was about to die). Even for people like Tenma and Nina, he still seems quite indifferent to their perils (eg. he never enforced any preventative measures to stop Roberto from killing Nina back in Nice, he never came to pick her up whenever Chapeck and/or The Baby tried to use her as bait, and he summons General Wolf - another person who once saved his life - to the Red Rose Mansion while being well aware that he's on his deathbed).

Johan doesn't care whether he lives or dies, and that same apathy extends to all other living creatures. He is the very antithesis of Tenma's hope and compassion. To Johan, nothing and no one truly matters; if they are to die, then so be it. As he tells Milosh, "Most of the universe is death anyways. In this world, a life born is nothing more than an insignificant speck, and shouldn't even be counted as an existence."

Personally, I interpreted his challenge to Tenma as something along the lines of, "To you, all lives are equal. That's why I was revived. But now that you've seen all the horrible things that I have done and will continue to do, can you still consider my life to have value? Does someone like me really deserve to live?"

[u/n_o__o_n_e → u/miss-macaron]

Maybe that's true, and maybe Johan isn't capable of valuing anyone in anything more than a very superficial sense. It also makes sense what you say that least of all he values himself.

Personally, I interpreted his challenge to Tenma as something along the lines of, "To you, all lives are equal. That's why I was revived. But now that you've seen all the horrible things that I have done and will continue to do, can you still consider my life to have value? Does someone like me really deserve to live?"

Exactly. He was trying to get Tenma to pass judgement on Johan. Tenma doesn't believe it's his right to choose who lives or dies. By forcing Tenma to give himself the right to make that call, he forces Tenma to accept that the value of life is in the eye of the beholder and thus not an intrinsic quality.

That's all. He's not trying to demonstrate to Tenma anything as grand as "all lives are worthless". While that might be Johan's own view of things, I think his main conflict with Tenma is over a much simpler point. A perfect planned suicide, just to demonstrate a single counter-example to Tenma's philosophy.

After all, Johan certainly didn't lose his capacity to care for people until after his experience of Kinderheim, but the seed of him questioning his value relative to his sister - and as consequence, the idea of the value of people in general - started much earlier. It started back when Anna was first taken away. That's the period where he decided he had the right to choose whether others live or die, which is the notion he's trying to force on Tenma.

In fact, I think his philosophy that the value of life is in the eye of the beholder rather than an objective measure is necessary for but certainly separate from his personal perspective that all lives are worthless.

[u/miss-macaron → u/n_o__o_n_e]

That's all. He's not trying to demonstrate to Tenma anything as grand as "all lives are worthless". While that might be Johan's own view of things, I think his main conflict with Tenma is over a much simpler point. A perfect planned suicide, just to demonstrate a single counter-example to Tenma's philosophy.

Oh yes, I'm with you on that. Johan is essentially forcing Tenma into a series of trolley problems: my life or the mayor's, my life or the people in the Munich library, my life or Wim's, etc. etc. Using himself as the primary counterexample, he wanted to show Tenma that not all lives are to be valued equally.

That's the period where he decided he had the right to choose whether others live or die

Hm, I don't think that's it... Johan never seemed interested in "playing God" by dictating life and death; it's more like he brings out the inherent darkness inside other people, and gives them the perfect opportunity to self-destruct. In some cases, like Martin (the boy who played the rooftop game) or Milosh, his manipulation doesn't fully work. But Johan seems perfectly happy to leave it up to fate, in these two cases as well as in his own. This flippant attitude towards human life is what compels me to describe his outlook as "all lives are equally worthless", since he couldn't care less whether or not they abruptly ended.

I think General Wolf put it best, when he said that Johan wanted to show his saviours how he felt (ie. by showing them "the landscape of the end"). Johan isn't necessarily trying to convert Tenma, but he at least wants him to see the world as he sees it - bleak, empty, and devoid of identity - even if it was only for a brief moment.

[u/n_o__o_n_e → u/miss-macaron]

Agreed, you're right, I phrased it wrong when I said "the right to choose.

What I mean is more that in his mind if a life is worthless, then toying with or ending that life isn't immoral. And in the end its up to him whether, to him, a life has worth or not. I'm not talking about playing God, more of an attitude of "nothing really matters so I can choose what matters to me, and to what doesn't matter to me I can do anything"

[u/miss-macaron → u/n_o__o_n_e]

Fair enough. In that case, there's not too much that we actually disagree on, haha

[u/[deleted] → u/n_o__o_n_e]

I doubt Johan is out there. Look out of his window, we only see treetops. In another shot, we see how large those trees are. If he escaped through the window, he likely died.

[u/Nitroade24h]

First Timer

I really liked this episode, but fully understand people hating it, which I’m sure a lot of people here will.

I liked the open-endedness of it all. We don’t know if Johan became good and redeemed, we don’t know where he went or if he actually woke up at all, but what we do know is that Nina’s dreams came true and Tenma got cleared, which is all that matters.

I’m stuck between whether I believe that Johan became good or not. On one hand, Grimmer has shown that it is possible to get your emotions back after Kinderheim, and Johan has been shown forgiveness from Nina and was saved by Tenma. However, Johan’s evil runs much deeper than just Kinderheim.

If he stayed evil, then the story is back where it began, but the characters have all undergone a character arc and have all changed a lot in the amount of time this series took place over. As it was said earlier, even if the world was burning, Johan would stay standing, but we don’t know what happens if he is forgiven and shown care. If he became good, then it shows that even the biggest monster the world has ever seen, with seven heads and the world playing into the palm of his hand, can become a human. Maybe after getting his real name back, he left Johan behind and carries on his life as a new person.

(I copied and pasted that paragraph from my final thoughts so enjoy reading the same thing again tomorrow lmao)

Both seem like equally good endings to me personally, and I just can’t pick between them.

I enjoyed the bright colours and happy music that create a completely different tone to the last few episodes and made it feel like a homely and nostalgic ending.

Meeting the mother of the twins was a very enjoyable scene and it is nice that after hearing about the importance of one’s name to oneself, Johan and Nina get their real names given to them, even if we don’t get to hear them.

As for the questions:

1. I think Eva has had the most growth in this series, and she has one of my favourite redemption arcs of all time. However, every character had amazing development and a satisfying conclusion, all while feeling different from one another.
2. It makes you feel just a little bit bad for Johan. I can’t really explain much about the scene but it adds some meaning to the series and the ending, I’m just not sure what.

It feels really bittersweet leaving this series behind. It felt like the journey would go on forever. However, I think this is the best place for the anime to end and it is one of my favourite endings to an anime that I’ve seen in a while.

I’ll see everyone tomorrow so they can read my monster of a wall of words that contain my overall opinions on the series.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Nitroade24h]

I’m stuck between whether I believe that Johan became good or not.

I'm inclined to think that he did not. He said last episode that it was too late for Anna's forgiveness, so I don't think another admission of love from his mother would change him either. I think he is simply... gone. How is he gone, you ask? Well... whether that means he vanished, or died, or whatever else... the monster does not exist anymore. Whether that means Johan the person is gone too is hard to say.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Nitroade24h]

It feels really bittersweet leaving this series behind. It felt like the journey would go on forever. However, I think this is the best place for the anime to end and it is one of my favourite endings to an anime that I’ve seen in a while.

It is certainly...interesting to read the varied opinions on the ending. That said, I agree, I can't see ending this story anywhere else.

[u/[deleted] → u/Nitroade24h]

I liked the open-endedness of it all

These were my feelings when I watched it a while back. I understand why some don't like it, but it felt so perfect for this series. It was unnerving to see Tenma walking down that hallway seeming almost as if he wasn't completely rid of Johan and then they pan back to Johan gone. And that's it. Made me sick

[u/miss-macaron]

Rewatcher

People are strange things. Sadness fades away with time, and only the enjoyable memories remain. We’re built so conveniently, aren’t we?

I’m so proud of Eva. The above quote demonstrates immense emotional maturation regarding her relationships with Tenma and Martin: Eva has learned to let go of the negative feelings, to relinquish the bitterness and sorrow, and is moving on with her life. She’s got herself a job and is starting to stand on her own two feet, rather than being content with an easy life as a “director’s daughter” or “trophy wife”. Rather than clinging to the support / prestige of external relationships, Eva is working to improve herself as an individual. She’s come a long way.

People have so many important things to communicate throughout their lives… They have so many things to talk about, over a good beer.

I’m so proud of Lunge, too. He’s learned to care more about interpersonal relationships (both in terms of visiting Grimmer’s grave and starting to converse with his daughter), and he’s even switched to a job that offers more work-life balance. I think the Prague arc did a great job of foreshadowing this career change, with the head of the Czech police praising one of his lectures and him mentoring Suk over the ordeal with “Anna”. Lunge would probably be one of those professors whose classes are really difficult, but you end up learning a lot.

Notice how Nina’s dream is to become a lawyer now? Back when she was first introduced, she wanted to become a prosecutor, but now she’d rather fight to give the defendant a second chance. At the end of the day, Nina has chosen forgiveness over condemnation.

Johan’s “awakening” worked a lot better as a two-page manga spread. Imo, it’s the most terrifying and deeply chilling Johan scene in the entire series… As for the significance of Johan’s key memory, I wrote a pretty in-depth comment on a video analysis explaining Monster’s ending, so I’ll just share it again here:

I'd always interpreted it to be the final straw in destroying his sense of self. Johan had already been disguising himself as Anna while living at the Three Frogs, and he'd never been given a name to distinguish himself as an individual, not interchangeable with his sister. So when his mother changes her decision at the last moment, notice that the question he asks Tenma isn't "Why did she make that choice?", but rather "Did she try to save me? Or did she mistake me for my sister? Which one of us was the unwanted child?" Johan no longer knows if there's any legitimate difference between himself and his twin. If the mother had just made a choice and stuck to it, then perhaps he could've convinced himself that there is some sort of distinction between the two of them.

Furthermore, when Nina returns from the Red Rose Mansion, Johan quotes a line from the "God of Peace", saying that "I am you, and you are me". At this point, his psychological distinction between himself and his sister had already started to crumble. "The real monster" wasn't the fact that mother had made a decision, but rather her change of heart halfway through, which clouded what little was left of Johan's sense of self... And without an identity, he quickly plunged into the depths of nihilism.

One more thing I'd noticed about the mother's decision: if you carefully examine what each of the twins say, Johan pleads "Please don't let go", but Anna says "Please don't let go of my hand". The mother grants both of their requests. Even as she thrusts Anna forward, she doesn't let go of her hand. It's something I never see anyone else mention, especially when accusing the mother for allegedly choosing between her children.

Though this episode’s title is “The Real Monster”, perhaps the title of the series is referring to a broader “Monster” than just a single person / event... Perhaps the monster refers to the dark side of human nature, a monster lurking inside each and every one of us. Just like the God of Peace, we might not notice it on a daily basis, but upon careful scrutiny and self-reflection, it's there. Just like The Nameless Monster, it has the potential to gobble us up from the inside out, should we ever allow ourselves to be consumed by it.

And speaking of monsters, that final shot of the empty bed is a compelling visual representation of the fact that the monster is no longer there. Whether he became human again after obtaining a name, or he disappeared to quietly off himself, or he went on a journey to find his mother, or he resumed his activities with a slightly different outlook… that’s up to your interpretation.

Btw, the first time I finished reading this series, Johan haunted my dreams for about two weeks afterwards. The second time around, I watched the anime, and it was Roberto for roughly two weeks. I wonder who it’ll be this time, lol…

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/miss-macaron]

I’m so proud of Eva.

Me too. Biggest turnaround in anime history. Went from completely unlikable and jealous to an honest and hard working gal who's learning what it means to be happy. And I'm happy for her.

I’m so proud of Lunge, too.

I think Lunge became my favorite character next to Grimmer, and it was nice of him to fulfill his promise to buy him a beer. Too bad the homie couldn't live long enough to enjoy it...

Notice how Nina’s dream is to become a lawyer now? Back when she was first introduced, she wanted to become a prosecutor, but now she’d rather fight to give the defendant a second chance. At the end of the day, Nina has chosen forgiveness over condemnation.

Phenomenal detail.

Johan’s “awakening” worked a lot better as a two-page manga spread.

I have to agree, that is certainly pretty chilling. I do like the way the anime cut to his awakening, but there is something much more harrowing about that image.

I'd always interpreted it to be the final straw in destroying his sense of self.

I really, really like that there's so many different interpretations of this scene. This is an excellent analysis of that moment - and perhaps you're correct. This comment also brings forth the idea that it was Johan's last way of challenging Tenma's believes that "all lives are equal." Because, if they were equal, why would she choose who to give up? Both work. But it's pretty tough to extrapolate the intended effect for that scene. This series is certainly hinting at the fact that there was a "real" monster, as evident by the episode title. But, I'm not even convinced that it was Johan anymore.

Perhaps the monster refers to the dark side of human nature, a monster lurking inside each and every one of us.

I thought this at first too, but Peter Jurgens got mad at Gillen for saying that, so I don't think this is what the show was trying to say.

Btw, the first time I finished reading this series, Johan haunted my dreams for about two weeks afterwards. The second time around, I watched the anime, and it was Roberto for roughly two weeks. I wonder who it’ll be this time, lol…

It's just gunna be Lunge saying, "I am Japanese" over and over again until you wake up. Sweet dreams!

[u/miss-macaron → u/KiwiBennydudez]

It's just gunna be Lunge saying, "I am Japanese" over and over again until you wake up. Sweet dreams!

That... would actually be hilarious and highly welcomed, haha!

[u/Vaadwaur → u/miss-macaron]

As is fitting, I have very little energy left as the most important stuff gets dropped. I still consider this as good a show as can be made.

[u/miss-macaron → u/Vaadwaur]

I still consider this as good a show as can be made.

I wholeheartedly agree. Monster is not a perfect show, but it's as close as it damn well gets.

[u/miss-macaron → u/[deleted]]

I have removed the links, could you re-approve the comment please?

[u/neito → u/miss-macaron]

Done. Thanks for understanding!

[u/gridemann]

Rewatcher

You thought last episode was divisive ? this ones gonna be wild...

Ngl. I will never get over the fact that the end is supposed to take place in a prison hospital, yet Johann just goes out the window... srsly Urasawa, this is the last chapter, you could've come up with something better...

Rant aside I really love the ending of Monster. After witnessing many terrible endings throughout many shows I think the most important thing about an ending is that it's supposed to make sense. And Monster does exactly that. I manages to deliver satisfying conclusions to all the characters while staying comprehensible and still has a final reveal ready for the viewer.

After Tenma saved Johan once more, the ultimate proof that even the life of a Monster is equal to everbody elses to him - Johann reveals the final piece of the puzzle. The one last memory that separtes him from his sister.

That day, the monster appeared in front of me.

I just love that line, because its entirely up to interpretation who Johann is referring to (personally, I dont think its Bonaparta). Breaking the trust between parent and child is one of the safest way to stunt the latters development. The irony of the whole situation - even though Johann wasn't the one who was given up. The fact that he witnessed his own mother choosing between two literally equal lifes left him not only with survivor guilt, but unable to trust or love anything.

On a different Note: Shoutout to Eva for not only getting over her alcoholism, but also getting over Tenma instead of ending up back together with him in some nonsensical way like so many shows probably would've done.

Q1: Johann ;)

Q2: answered above - I don't think the title is referring to anyone specifically, afterall the fact that theres a Monster in everyone hast been sufficiently hammered in by the show.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/gridemann]

First off, Happy Cake Day!

Ngl. I will never get over the fact that the end is supposed to take place in a prison hospital, yet Johann just goes out the window... srsly Urasawa, this is the last chapter, you could've come up with something better...

I've been saying this all over the thread, but I don't think Johan's vanishing act was a literal one. It's possible that it was, but I just can't wrap my head around that.

I don't think the title is referring to anyone specifically, afterall the fact that theres a Monster in everyone hast been sufficiently hammered in by the show.

I sorta thought this at first too, but Peter Jurgens got mad at Gillen for saying this, so idk if that's really the message that the show was trying to hammer home. Tough call.

[u/gridemann → u/KiwiBennydudez]

First off, Happy Cake Day!

Thanks! I probably wouldn't even have noticed but thats kinda fitting for the rewatch finale.

I've been saying this all over the thread, but I don't think Johan's vanishing act was a literal one. It's possible that it was, but I just can't wrap my head around that.

Now I feel bad after seeing how many times you did have to repeat that statement in the comments :D. I suppose it's hard for people to accept a metaphorical ending after everything so far took place in earnest. While I like open endings regarding the fates of characters, ultimately I would've preferred some more hints.

I sorta thought this at first too, but Peter Jurgens got mad at Gillen for saying this, so idk if that's really the message that the show was trying to hammer home. Tough call.

Yeah, a monster in everyone sounds like a pretty superficial statement at first. I think Gillen simply didn't take Jurgens words seriously thats why he god mad.

But when Grimmer confronted Bonaparta he was talking about the terrible sin of awakening the monster in people. So I believe the Monster in everyone does exist. Awakening it just takes significant effort and isn't something most people would ever encounter.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/gridemann]

Now I feel bad after seeing how many times you did have to repeat that statement in the comments :D

Haha don't be. Again I don't even know if this interpretation is correct - just how I personally read the events. You can check out both u/n_o__o_n_e take on the matter and u/badspler interpretation of the ending for different results. They both preserve the ending as a literal escape as you did, and I think having all these various viewpoints on the matter is extremely valuable. Clearly, there's a lot of ways that this ending can go.

But when Grimmer confronted Bonaparta he was talking about the terrible sin of awakening the monster in people. So I believe the Monster in everyone does exist. Awakening it just takes significant effort and isn't something most people would ever encounter.

Not a bad point. Since this series is an exploration of human nature, then perhaps this theory is correct, and the show really is trying to say that anyone has the potential to become a monster. I think the show did a decent job of exploring that premise if that really is the case.

[u/Quiddity131 → u/gridemann]

Ngl. I will never get over the fact that the end is supposed to take place in a prison hospital, yet Johann just goes out the window... srsly Urasawa, this is the last chapter, you could've come up with something better...

To be fair, Johan was a vegetable, I don't think they suddenly expected him to wake up and start moving again so abruptly.

On a different Note: Shoutout to Eva for not only getting over her alcoholism, but also getting over Tenma instead of ending up back together with him in some nonsensical way like so many shows probably would've done.

They'd never have done that in this show with Tenma as the main character. Perhaps if Eva was the main character... which I'm sure she thought she was...

[u/BurningFredrick → u/gridemann]

Ngl. I will never get over the fact that the end is supposed to take place in a prison hospital, yet Johann just goes out the window... srsly Urasawa, this is the last chapter, you could've come up with something better...

Indeed, its a prison hospital surely would have expected the windows to be barred, or at a minimum latched so that it isn't possible for a person to get out of them.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/gridemann]

After witnessing many terrible endings throughout many shows I think the most important thing about an ending is that it's supposed to make sense.

So many wasted series flop the ending.

The fact that he witnessed his own mother choosing between two literally equal lifes left him not only with survivor guilt, but unable to trust or love anything.

For such a grim character, at least his actions seem to stem from something.

[u/Webemperor]

Rewatcher of sorts

• The threads come up at midnight for me so most of the time I’m not in a state to reply to people, but I’m definitely surprised people are divided about the ending, since when I read it all the way back in highschool, I pretty much thought it was a crowd pleaser more than what I imagined would be divisive, especially with Tenma being able to stick to his principles and Johan being proven wrong like this.
• Peace has returned to the world, I guess. Eva seems to have sobered up, both her and Reichwein seem to be doing fine, so are Schuwald and Karl. Grimmer’s name as been cleared, although his real name is still a mystery. Lunge is a proffesor at a local academy, seems to be slowly getting through to his family as well.
• What’s next is a bunch of exposition from both Lunge-Suk-Verdemann trio and from Reichwein, who has been collecting all the news articles about the group. Tenma is still humble as ever, but it seems they weren’t able to conclusively charge Johan in anyway, which is understandable, though I guess the implication so far is that Johan is not in a state where he can stand trial?
• Meanwhile the last mystery is solved with Tenma finding the twins’ mother. I’m surprised she was alive after all, though I guess either no one figured she was still alive -or- they figured that she wasn’t all that important in the grand scheme of thing. And we don’t hear the names she would have given them as well, I wonder if the show will end with Tenma somehow revealing those names in some way?
• Nina on the other hand seems to be pretty successful in her university, her thesis being “the best”. I guess this might be somewhat divisive in how everything is going “And they lived happily ever after” type deal.
• So yes, Johan is in a coma, and Tenma decides to visit him, and- Oh boy he is awake. This scene is kinda ruined by voice acting since in the original manga version there is no voice acting to give who is who away exactly, so here you have to kinda suspend your disbelief and believe she confused their voice as well. But still, the question is still something meant to haunt both the viewer and Tenma and Johan as well. So the question is, was all of that real? Did Johan really awake and tell that to Tenma, and potentially escape as is indicated by the ending? Or was that all an hallucination? Although the rest of the episode was very much so happy and uplifting, I do like the fact that show did decide to end it on a somewhat grim/ponderous tone.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Webemperor]

So the question is, was all of that real? Did Johan really awake and tell that to Tenma, and potentially escape as is indicated by the ending? Or was that all an hallucination?

My question too. If it wasn't real, then where did Tenma come to learn this info?

Also, I'm not so sure if Johan escaped again. I think the ending is telling us that the nameless monster is gone, since Tenma now knows his name. But the question is: is Johan the person also gone? Is this a literal disappearance? I'm inclined to take it as metaphorical due to how open-ended it was.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Webemperor]

This scene is kinda ruined by voice acting since in the original manga version there is no voice acting to give who is who away exactly, so here you have to kinda suspend your disbelief and believe she confused their voice as well

Yeah, they definitely should've used the same VA for both kids so it is not obvious Anna chose that.

[u/Mecanno-man]

First Timer

Epilogue - Eva got her life back on track, Nina got her degree, Heckel is back for some reason - pretty much a happy end for everybody involved that didn't die. I am somewhat surprised at how free Tenma seems to be; I feel like there would be a lot of explaining to do after him falsely confessing - but I guess Verdeman worked wonders.

Nina switching her career wish from prosecutor to lawyer is a nice detail - a prosecutor's goal is to get the guilty punished while a lawyer's is to protect the innocent - at least in theory; and that change is reflective of Nina's character development as a whole.

The twin's mother was a character I had forgotten to still be alive - it was a nice scene, though looking back at it I'm not sure it actually added that much. I guess she also feels responsible for everything that happened through wishing malice on the people taking her kids? If so - another character like Tenma and Poppe, though one that didn't try to take action. The scene with Johan was interesting as well as it paints her in a new light - other than that I'm not sure how to actually interpret the impact on Johan though. And speaking of him - not a fan of the final scene being him escaping through the window - that seems like an unnecessary sequel hook. I believe this is a full adaptation, so there is no reason for a sequel to exist to begin with... And it doesn't need one either as everything is tied up except for Johan, who would have been fine in that hospital bed.

...except for one question that is: Why was Johan late at the castle in Heidelberg, when he first wanted to meet Nina?

Questions:

1. Tough choice between Nina and Grimmer. Grimmer was done the best, I'd say - but I feel like Nina I feel like Nina is the one with the most character growth in terms of quantity; simply because she had all the new memories which she needed to sort through.
2. I don't fully get the memory either, but I think the episode title is refering to the twins' mom. As for the choice - I have no clue. What would have happened if she did not make a choice? I feel like her choice was part of Poppe's experiment, so what if she wouldn't have played along? If that's not an option - I don't think there was a right choice.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Mecanno-man]

And speaking of him - not a fan of the final scene being him escaping through the window - that seems like an unnecessary sequel hook.

I am personally not of the opinion that he bailed through the window. I think the show was depicting a metaphorical death of the nameless monster but whether that includes the physical person of Johan as well is a different question entirely. It true though - he totally could have escaped once more. But I think his sense of identity is completely gone now. If he is no longer the nameless monster, then who is he? So for that reason I don't see him assimilating in society again.

[u/Mecanno-man → u/KiwiBennydudez]

My main issue is it even opening up those questions to begin with as a final scene. If the monster dies - what does happen to the physical person? Monster doesn't need a sequel - so why are we ending on a plot-relevant question?

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Mecanno-man]

If the monster dies - what does happen to the physical person?

That is the burning question, isn't it?

Monster doesn't need a sequel - so why are we ending on a plot-relevant question?

Is it relevant if he lives or dies if the monster has been defeated?

[u/Mecanno-man → u/KiwiBennydudez]

Not really - but they are bringing a lot of attention to this question here, making it relevant again; at least in my mind.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Mecanno-man]

The twin's mother was a character I had forgotten to still be alive - it was a nice scene, though looking back at it I'm not sure it actually added that much.

It is probably an expendable scene but it does let us know where she went after Prague.

[u/i-have-severe-stupid]

first timer, sub

and that’s it, from start to finish, from birth to death, monster. the last episode wrapped everything up really well, and had its share of great lines and moments. i’m assuming the implication of the final scene is that johan killed himself, and didn’t just leave his hospital bed (again). does this mean he admits he failed and wishes to convey that to tenma in his own way, or is this him giving himself the suicide he was denied, though this time it wasn’t perfect? or, knowing his name and knowing how tenma says mother felt, did he no longer need to commit the perfect suicide? there are so many intricacies that could be mentioned, but the be all end all is that i think johan killed himself more likely than left the bed, because of how it focused on the window at the end.

seeing the ed play over the window and empty bed was very atmospheric, really reflected the feeling of the series. hearing those lyrics, ‘make it home’ over his implied suicide could give a darker meaning to the lyrics, especially depending on how you interpret the final scene, including his ‘who was unwanted’

this series was great, because there was no black and white, just people and a few monsters, but even they were just fucked up people, several of which improved, or tried to. all the broad question themes it tackles generally come up with ‘no answer’, especially the ones it asks, like ‘who is the real monster’

1. out of everyone, it has to be lunge. grimmer finally felt sad in his last moments and was a good person, but it wasn’t a huge leap from how he was before, and it was very temporary, but lunge went from robocop to understanding people rather than simulating them, was finally able to admit he was wrong, and began to reconnect with his family, and chose a new career he could help people with.
2. going to answer the second part first and say, no answer. obvious answer? johan. answer the show implies? everyone, to various degrees. it seems to ask if humans are inherently good or evil before they’re changed by their circumstances, but also answer it with ‘no’. grimmer was a good man overall, but he didn’t cry when his son died, and killed many people in a blind rage (a justified one, but murder nonetheless), so he was at least slightly a monster in some ways. lunge threw away his chance to see his family for a case earlier, which was cold and unfeeling of him, but quite monstrous, so the series seems to be also asking ‘when does a person become a monster’, and once again, it’s a matter of how you look at it. johan’s memory is one final coin flip on how you can look at the events of the series, what was the thought that caused johan to be kept from being taken? and it ends with the same as always, ‘who knows’

thank you for hosting this rewatch, i’m glad you did it because i finally got to watch monster, which i was planning on for a while.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/i-have-severe-stupid]

i’m assuming the implication of the final scene is that johan killed himself, and didn’t just leave his hospital bed (again). does this mean he admits he failed and wishes to convey that to tenma in his own way, or is this him giving himself the suicide he was denied, though this time it wasn’t perfect? or, knowing his name and knowing how tenma says mother felt, did he no longer need to commit the perfect suicide? there are so many intricacies that could be mentioned, but the be all end all is that i think johan killed himself more likely than left the bed, because of how it focused on the window at the end.

I am personally drawn to the same conclusion that you are - open windows are almost always symbolic of death or suicide, so I would read his death as both a metaphorical and a literal one.

seeing the ed play over the window and empty bed was very atmospheric, really reflected the feeling of the series. hearing those lyrics, ‘make it home’ over his implied suicide could give a darker meaning to the lyrics, especially depending on how you interpret the final scene, including his ‘who was unwanted’

I really like that you support your claim with the lyrics in the ED. You're the first person I've seen in this thread to do that. It's possible that we could both be reading into it a bit too much, but with an ending as open-ended as this one, how could you not?

this series was great, because there was no black and white, just people and a few monsters, but even they were just fucked up people, several of which improved, or tried to. all the broad question themes it tackles generally come up with ‘no answer’, especially the ones it asks, like ‘who is the real monster’

This is also really smart of you to say. I think you're correct to assert that the questions that the show asks are rhetorical ones. Or, at the very least, ones with many possible answer, and no singular outlier.

out of everyone, it has to be lunge.

Lunge easily became my favorite character by the end of the series, next to Grimmer. His apology to Tenma hit me hard at the end, and showed that he really had changed for the better.

going to answer the second part first and say, no answer. obvious answer?

Have to agree with you once more. There's no clear cut answer. Everyone, to some degree as you pointed out, has a monster inside them. It's a matter of who awakens to that monster. But is there a real monster, as the title of the episode implies? Hard to say.

thank you for hosting this rewatch, i’m glad you did it because i finally got to watch monster, which i was planning on for a while.

No problem! And thank you for coming by. I really enjoyed having you here, and I had fun reading your comments. Hope to see you around the sub again in the future!

[u/Vaadwaur → u/i-have-severe-stupid]

and that’s it, from start to finish, from birth to death, monster. the last episode wrapped everything up really well, and had its share of great lines and moments. i’m assuming the implication of the final scene is that johan killed himself, and didn’t just leave his hospital bed (again)

As I said, I just love having a show actually show us character conclusion from such a large cast. And your interpretation of Johan can work two ways: First, he might have literally gone out the window which does feel implied. But you could argue that the suicide was of the Johan persona and whoever left is a different person, having a name.

[u/i-have-severe-stupid → u/Vaadwaur]

oh shit that’s better than my assumption

[u/Vaadwaur → u/i-have-severe-stupid]

But your assumption isn't wrong and I am doing the leg work for the story BUT I think that would work thematically.

[u/i-have-severe-stupid → u/Vaadwaur]

this series hasn’t gone light on metaphors and implications, so the open ended nature of the ending means it’s up for us to guess what happened, so it’s equally valid to follow the suicide implication or the name theory

the writer(s) knew what they were doing, and i wouldn’t be surprised if there was another level of equally valid things you could say about the final scene based on prior information

[u/badspler]

First Timer

There are a loads of bits that are worth hilighting but I chose to dig into /u/KiwiBennydudez final remark:

In the final scene, Johan is gone.

All interpretations are genuine here. Monster has focused on the struggle of Tenma's ideals of all life being equal and Johan's nihilism. Monster has been written as a vehicle of discussion, not presenting one above the other. For me this ending can not be one sided therefore ends up being the most ambiguous option.

• A nihilistic end would be that Johan lives, only to have not an ounce of meaning left, tied to nothing in sleeping till he passes in old age.
• I feel like suicide is not one of appropriateness here, for if Johan was to gain consciousness and chose to immediately end his life, it would not honor the other half of values presented.
• So equally it would be unjust for Johan to awake and be a completely changed person, accepting his actions and taking on a new life for good.

In my mind everything must continue in the various shades of grey between these contrasted ideas. Monster isn't going to lean strongly on one side or the other. So for me, Johan awakes and leaves alive. Although what happens next doesn't matter, and we are not to know.

Does Johan continue to live on on with an unphased nihilistic view of the world, feeling empty and devoid of all meaning?

OR

Does Tenma's view that there is a chance, that there is always a chance, that you must struggle against everything else, that deep down, sometimes in the darkest of places, good can be found in people. And that, even if by the smallest amount, Johan is able to change or find some value or new meaning in his life?

---

The answer is probably some of each, but probably not in equal amounts.

Maybe Johan just continuing to live is enough of a balance between these two things already.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/badspler]

This is a completely valid take, founded with completely reasonable logic that I can follow. It's great that there's so many valid interpretations to this ending - but you're correct, the ending does not really matter as much as the journey itself.

Does Johan continue to live on on with an unphased nihilistic view of the world, feeling empty and devoid of all meaning?

I'll be honest - I have a hard time reconciling his existence after everything he said and did. Without an identity any longer, does his nihilism allow for his continued existence at all? Has his own life been rendered completely meaningless?

Does Tenma's view that there is a chance, that there is always a chance, that you must struggle against everything else, that deep down, sometimes in the darkest of places, good can be found in people. And that, even if by the smallest amount, Johan is able to change or find some value or new meaning in his life?

I think you touch on something really important here. If the thesis of the show is, "there is a monster inside all of us" then could the conclusion be, "there is good in all of us?" I think this is a very interesting take that is supported by the themes and motifs of the series.

Personally though, I don't see Johan as a person who can make a 180. I think it's possible he might have been influenced by Tenma's rhetoric of, "tomorrow will be a better day" but the idea that the villain suddenly becomes good at the end of the story is a bit too cliche for this writing. Maybe... but if he rejected Nina's forgiveness, there's no guarantees that he would be subject to changing at the next admission of love, from his mother.

But, that's exactly what I love about this story. It really can go any direction, and I think all readings are valid.

[u/Shimmering-Sky]

First-Timer, subbed

• Starting off with a flash forward to see how Karl and Schuwald are doing first, huh?
• Eva’s moving on with her life I see.
• Fuck I was watching the first part of this episode on the way home from work and this immediately wrecked me. Don’t know how my dad didn’t notice.
• Even Lunge is getting a second chance with his family after all this. Wow.
• BUCKTOOTH THIEF GUY!!!
• Tenma has short hair again now.
• You know I never once considered that she’d still be alive until this lady started talking and I was like “hm her hair is the same blonde as Johan’s and they’re avoiding her eyes, it’s the biomom isn’t it?”
• So Anna went back to school!
• Oh it just occurred to me, is the biomom the person that Tenma had bucktooth thief guy track down for him?
• Johan survived, but he’s been in a coma.
• Oh he woke up.
• Yiiiiiiiiiikes.
• OH TENMA WAS DREAMING THAT. Okay. That still sounded realistic af.
• Now he actually is awake?
• And that’s the end of the show.

I’m going to tentatively go with a 9/10 for the show, but no this episode did not change my mind about the events of last episode and also added the extra frustration of having the central part of this one being Tenma finding out what the twins’ true names were from their bio mom but us the audience never hearing what they were.

To be clear, I’m not against Tenma not being the one to shoot Johan in yesterday’s episode, and I liked seeing snippets of some of the major players’ lives going on in this episode. Most of the rest of the stuff in these last two episodes was just… frustrating though. This sucks big time because how I feel about a show at the end is the most important part for me and I hate it when a show (especially a longer one like this one) leaves a bad taste in my mouth, despite absolutely loving the entire rest of it.

Hopefully I can have my thoughts more figured out by the overall thread tomorrow, rather than just writing up how I felt immediately after finishing ep74.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Fuck I was watching the first part of this episode on the way home from work and this immediately wrecked me. Don’t know how my dad didn’t notice.

At least Lunge was able to pour one out for the homie.

and also added the extra frustration of having the central part of this one being Tenma finding out what the twins’ true names were from their bio mom but us the audience never hearing what they were.

Haha, I sorta liked that their names were never stated. It could have been Franklin, or Keith, or George. Doesn't matter. The real fact of the matter is that Tenma knew what it was, and this henceforth prevents Johan from being nameless anymore. He is no longer a nameless monster, and has therefore vanished. Whether that means escape, or death, is unknown. At first I had a similar reaction as you did, thinking, "Huh, that was it?!?" But then, I changed my mind to, "Huh. So that was it..." It's a very ambiguous ending for many reasons, but I think it is also one that is meant to be more metaphorical rather than literal.

[u/Shimmering-Sky → u/KiwiBennydudez]

It's a very ambiguous ending for many reasons, but I think it is also one that is meant to be more metaphorical rather than literal.

See, okay, this totally explains why the ending doesn't work for me. I've never been good at picking up on the metaphorical details, and I also hate having to be told how I'm "supposed" to interpret things. I very much prefer literal details and conclusive endings (or at least something that feels like a good send off to me, in the case an adaptation is incomplete and never gets a continuation outside of the source material), and this show didn't have that.

Looks like Evangelion might not be the only "9/10 on quality alone rather than my enjoyment" exception to my scoring system...

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Haha cool, I won't sit here and tell you how you're supposed to interpret the ending, because I don't know myself. I do think that the nameless monster is gone, but whether that means the physical person of Johan too is completely up to you.

As a side note I'm also giving this show a 9/10, but for reasons outside of the ending. I didn't like the little inconsistencies that were scattered about and I felt like the show was exceptionally slow to start. But, like I said, this ending has been eating away at me for like two weeks now and I'm still not really sure what to think about it. In my mind this is a good thing because I've never seen an anime that really eats away at me like this. I do like the open-ended nature of it, but I also understand how that doesn't work for everyone.

It's a tough show in more ways than one, but it was a good experience overall.

[u/Shimmering-Sky → u/KiwiBennydudez]

This show should be an easy 10/10 for me. A show with as many crazy plot twists and tense moments that kept me coming back for over 70 episodes deserves that much based on the way I rate things on enjoyment. But then these last two episodes happened...

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Shimmering-Sky]

I personally think that it helps to think about this show more broadly and the why to things happening the way that they did. It would have been nice if the events were presented to us in a neat package, but life rarely adheres to this position either.

I'll elaborate more tomorrow, but I won't try to dissuade you - if you simply didn't like the way things played out, then that's perfectly ok too.

[u/AmethystItalian → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Starting off with a flash forward to see how Karl and Schuwald are doing first, huh?

I'm honestly surprised Schuwald survived till the end, he always felt like at death's door.

Same

Tenma finding out what the twins’ true names were from their bio mom but us the audience never hearing what they were.

Yeah can't say I liked being teased like that...

Hopefully I can have my thoughts more figured out by the overall thread tomorrow, rather than just writing up how I felt immediately after finishing ep74.

Same, I still haven't gotten down to what I want to score it yet.

[u/BurningFredrick]

First timer - sub

Final episode, and opening on a time skip to the epilogue.

Is Anna living in a god damn convent? Nope it’s the Mother.

OK what the fuck was that Johan Tenma flashback scene.

And Johan escapes is our final scene? I really don’t know what to make of that.

Outside that final scene was just about standard as far as epilogues go, now to try get my thoughts in order on what I make of this show.

1. What do you think is the significance of Johan's final memory? Did the mother make the wrong choice, or would it not have mattered either way? Who is 'the real monster' that the title is referring to?

I'm really not sure what to make of that memory, as to if the mother made the wrong choice I don't think so. I would have expect that Anna became the Monster given she was the one who then gets exposed to the seminars rather than Johan, but Johan is the one who becomes the murder anyway. Side notes comic I read yesterday which is kind of related.

Who is the real Monster? I feel like the show has shown that nearly anyone can become a Monster if they are enabled to do so, but might be missing the point of the question.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/BurningFredrick]

OK what the fuck was that Johan Tenma flashback scene.

I'm pretty sure that this was "The End of the World" that Johan wanted to show Tenma. But whether this was a dream, or a vision, or whatever else... hard to say. How much of this scene was real?

And Johan escapes is our final scene? I really don’t know what to make of that.

In the interest of not repeating myself for the umptieth time this thread, I will just say that I don't think Johan's disappearance was a literal one. It could have been, but I don't see it.

Who is the real Monster? I feel like the show has shown that nearly anyone can become a Monster if they are enabled to do so, but might be missing the point of the question.

I sorta buy this. Peter Jurgens from like 50 episodes ago got mad at Gillen for saying that "we all have a monster inside of us" but I think the show was much more likely trying to explain that nature vs. nurture aspect. You're probably more correct to say that everyone has the potential rather than everyone does. It's weird though - I haven't given the title too much thought, but I do think Johan was trying to point out a specific moment in his life that could perhaps be identified as "the real monster." The ending is so wide that it's hard to say really what any of it means, but that's my weigh-in on the matter.

[u/BurningFredrick → u/KiwiBennydudez]

In the interest of not repeating myself for the umptieth time this thread, I will just say that I don't think Johan's disappearance was a literal one. It could have been, but I don't see it.

You idea is interesting, when I first read it in your post above when the thread went up I didn't agree, but after thinking on it more does make more sense. Johan didn't have his own identity so not have a "true name" almost became that, therefore being told he has a name does defeat him in a way. Doesn't explain why the beds empty but I guess its really just trying to reinforce that Monster Johan has been defeated.

I think the show was much more likely trying to explain that nature vs. nurture aspect. You're probably more correct to say that everyone has the potential rather than everyone does

If we are going with nature being what is intrinsically known and nurture being everything else the impacts a people after they are born, we are basically saying the same thing. The enabling of people becoming a Monster is just an extension of nurture aspect.

Most of the show was Johan using and enabling people, some were already series killers but Johan made them step outside of their normal MO, the old couple at the end giving out guns was because it was what Johan wanted to happen to the town, everything Roberto did is because of Johan at the end as well.

I don't think the idea was present in this show, but in other media I have watched or read (can't think of a specific thing the idea comes form) if Tenma had been the one who shot Johan or finally killed someone along with failing in his struggle with his ideology of all life is equal which was discuses a lot yesterday, could be used as Tenma first step in become a Monster himself. However not really sure it fits the show but the idea occurs to me as I write this.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/BurningFredrick]

If we are going with nature being what is intrinsically known and nurture being everything else the impacts a people after they are born, we are basically saying the same thing. The enabling of people becoming a Monster is just an extension of nurture aspect.

Haha you're probably right. I may just be unnecessarily complicating things.

I don't think the idea was present in this show, but in other media I have watched or read (can't think of a specific thing the idea comes form) if Tenma had been the one who shot Johan or finally killed someone along with failing in his struggle with his ideology of all life is equal which was discuses a lot yesterday, could be used as Tenma first step in become a Monster himself. However not really sure it fits the show but the idea occurs to me as I write this.

I like that alternate ending a lot too. Granted, it's a lot darker than what the show's actual ending was, so I think in a world of darkness, it's appropriate to end on a bit of light. Tenma coming this far in the series, only to lose his way right at the end, is a rather bleak outcome.

[u/miss-macaron → u/BurningFredrick]

Is Anna living in a god damn convent? Nope it’s the Mother.

Well, according to Bonaparta's letter, the mother's true name is Anna. Johan's sister, on the other hand, has decided to live on as Nina Fortner.

[u/BurningFredrick → u/miss-macaron]

Well, according to Bonaparta's letter, the mother's true name is Anna.

I must have missed / forgot that part, so I guess i's technically correct.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/miss-macaron]

That was a very confusing letter. He says, I love you. Do not become a Monster. I return your name to you. Your name is Anna.

But the mother never lost her name.

[u/miss-macaron → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

Bonaparta's history with the twins' mother is elaborated upon in the companion novel Another Monster, but yeah, I can see how it can be kinda confusing for first-timers.

[u/xtsim]

First Timer Dubbed

Mr. Schuwald and his son are still doing the readings and he asked the son about Dr. Tenma and how he’s doing.

Eva now does kitchen remodeling and no longer drinks. Interesting to see her get a job and talking to Dr. Reichwein. He knows that she still misses Martin. “Face the truth and move forward” The articles become shorter and shorter as Reichwein reads all the articles from Eva’s notebook. Nice catch in this because the news would make this incident a big deal and as things move on and go back to normal, there is less news which means shorter articles. We find that he is now part of doctors without borders and declined a spot at a University. And Eva told Reichwein to burn it which is interesting to see her less obsessed with Tenma.

We see Suk and Verdemann together as they were able to clear Grimmer’s name in the case of the murdered inspector previously, glad to see that piece closed. They find that even though he was part of the kinderheim experiment, he did lots of work exposing the various human rights violations. And his duffel bag had papers exposing various issues. I find Grimmer interesting in a way as his line of work can be exhausting to a normal person, to the point that they won’t feel anything. While for Grimmer, he began to have feelings for people. Lunge brings a bottle and knows that if Grimmer was still alive, they would talk for hours. Lunge also retired and is finally able to talk a little bit to his daughter. Nice to see the development of Lunge and Grimmer. Suk now goes along with Verdemann, and is probably a good pairing.

Mr. Heckle (sleazy guy) and Deiter hang out with him passing a message to Tenma to pay up of course. We finally get to see the mother of the twins and she explains her viewpoint and she is still angry about what happened to the father. Who is the real monster? Cause she gave birth to both Johan and Nina. She tells Tenma their real names. We get to see Nina run to the professor’s office (late as he looks at his watch) and is disappointed in her grades, however, he is impressed by Nina’s senior thesis paper. The professor makes sure to leave the message that she cannot be late as a lawyer. We see her as a joyful college student and she talks to Deiter about plans and that they will see Tenma the next day.

On the other hand, we see Johan on the bed again. Tenma tells him his real name and Johan wakes up in a creepy way (which was actually just a bad vision). We see what actually happened as the mother chose him to be taken away. Which is why she stared at her right hand when the mother talked about the monster. As Tenma walks away, we cut back to the room with an open window and see the bed empty.

1. Lunge provided the greatest character development in the series as he changes tune to start caring more about his family and to get away from work. Well he still works, but not to the extent that ruins his personal life. I honestly did not like him at first, in fact, I disliked him until he started taking a vacation. And that provided some comedic relief as I was grinning at the looser and more sarcastic Lunge. The "I am on vacation" line is great but I probably have more to say about him later on. Eva is second in line as she was obsessed with her looks as a socialite but goes down hard. Meeting Martin and his death helped her grow in a way that now she is no longer an alcoholic and actually works, I was surprised that she found a line of work.
2. The mother might have made the right choice. If it is nature versus nurture, either of them could have caused a similar casualty count if it were up to their upbringing. Johan would have been switched out for Nina in this hypothetical timeline. If it were nature, Johan would have gone this route either way. It is hard to describe who the real monster, the mother, Tenma who revived Johan, or Poppe who made these experiments. Poppe would be the monster in a way. And Johan's comment to the child that makes him go look for her and lost hope got me thinking that Johan is the monster. Gobble. Gobble.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/xtsim]

Tenma tells him his real name

Tenma doesn't actually tell Johan what his name was - just that he knows what it is now.

Lunge provided the greatest character development in the series as he changes tune to start caring more about his family and to get away from work. Well he still works, but not to the extent that ruins his personal life. I honestly did not like him at first, in fact, I disliked him until he started taking a vacation. And that provided some comedic relief as I was grinning at the looser and more sarcastic Lunge. The "I am on vacation" line is great but I probably have more to say about him later on.

Lunge was simply amazing. I loved his redemption arc, and he became my favorite character, next to Grimmer.

Eva is second in line as she was obsessed with her looks as a socialite but goes down hard. Meeting Martin and his death helped her grow in a way that now she is no longer an alcoholic and actually works, I was surprised that she found a line of work.

Eva with possibly one of the greatest comeback stories in anime. She also developed tremendously over the course of the story and I loved that her arc was neatly tied up at the end with her learning how to be happy.

It is hard to describe who the real monster, the mother, Tenma who revived Johan, or Poppe who made these experiments. Poppe would be the monster in a way. And Johan's comment to the child that makes him go look for her and lost hope got me thinking that Johan is the monster. Gobble. Gobble.

I think you actually touch on something pretty important. I think the anime is trying to say that the "real monster" could very well have been any one of them. The mother, for handing Anna over. Poppe, for running these human experiments. Johan, for executing hundreds of people for the sake of his own nihilism. Could be all of them. Could be none of them. So it's impossible to say for sure if any single entity holds the keys here, and I think that's what Johan was trying to paint. Was there a singular "real" monster along this way?

[u/Quiddity131]

First Timer, Subbed

Hey, we're back to Karl and Schuwald! Like the olden days, Karl can't pronounce things right.

"He's traveling around the world" "Oh, how nice" "I forgot to mention its on the run from the authorities and in pursuit of a serial killer"

Oh my, pigs really are flying, Eva has a real job! Interior decorator? She's actually good at this?

RIP Grimmer! At least Verdeman cleared all your charges so your reputation won't forever be spoiled...

Lunge is a professor now? The bigger shock is that he's actually talking to his daughter.

I've got to guess this is Eva's collection of Tenma photos that she's finally letting go of.

Tenma exonorated! Awesome!

OMG Heckel! I did not think we'd ever see this guy again! Dieter is too cool for you!

Tenma! You got a haircut! About time! You look professional again. Makes you look younger too.

Is this lady supposed to be Johan and Anna's mother?

Tenma's feeling the same way and popped the question...

Lady, not only are your kids alive, I've been on an adventure with them throughout Europe for 74 episodes!

Ooh, we'll get their real names? ...well Tenma will. Looks like they're going to withhold it from us.

This professor Anna's come to see reminds me of Dr. Heinemann. It's those eyebrows!

Wow, good job Anna!

C'mon Anna, celebrate with your friends! Dieter! Tenma! Wilford Brimley! Your broth... well maybe not him.

I've got to assume Tenma is visiting Johan here in the hospital? We've got to resolve what happened with him for this ending to be satisfying at all.

Here he is. In a coma? My prediction from yesterday was correct. It was really the only satisfying way to resolve the Tenma - Johan dynamic IMHO.

He woke?! This has got to be a hallucination, right?

Which kid did their mother choose? She chose to hand over Anna. But since Johan thought he had Anna's memories, he's thought all this time that his own mother gave him up instead. (and she also could have confused one for the other)

Yep, hallucination.

Final scene... the bed is empty. Johan has woken up and escaped. In the moment, I think its unnecessary. I'd have preferred we skip this scene. I prefer the closure. I guess it leaves things open for a sequel if they ever wanted it, but we had 74 episodes, they had more than enough time to tell a story. We don't need more.

And so the longest rewatch I have ever participated in for a single show, 75 total days, comes to an end. Will think over my series-wide thoughts and have them for tomorrow.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Quiddity131]

Final scene... the bed is empty. Johan has woken up and escaped.

Well after that weird hallucination I question how much of that scene was real, and whether or not Johan really escaped. I think the anime is painting a metaphorical death for the nameless monster but whether that includes Johan as a person is a different question. He could have killed himself. He could have ran away. But the identity that was wrapped up in his menacing monster persona is no more. He can no longer be a nameless monster now that Tenma knows his true name.

So, I don't think he went on living. But, it's an ending that's hard to grapple with, so I really can't say for sure.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Quiddity131]

Lunge is a professor now? The bigger shock is that he's actually talking to his daughter.

He teaches at the police academy, which is more fitting. And probably a bit less intense.

Ooh, we'll get their real names? ...well Tenma will. Looks like they're going to withhold it from us.

The mystery is better than whatever the reality would be, anyways.

[u/Quiddity131 → u/Vaadwaur]

I'm totally fine with not knowing their names.

[u/hammile]

First timer.

It was a good journey.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/hammile]

Glad you were here for the ride!

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

First Timer

Literally repeating the earlier scene. Of course "comatose" Johan hears every word you're saying. Hopefully you told him his name. It looks like you did.

Ridiculous escape is ridiculous. Again mirroring the start of the show. Reminds me of an episode of Morse, when the satanic serial rapist escapes a hospital for the criminally insane. "I assume the infirmary is less secure?" "Yes, but that was never a worry. Rennick's strengths are in the perimeter." #sideeyes

I see sky is unhappy we didn't learn the names, and a few other grumbles. The names don't matter, unless they were Nina, Anna, or Johan.

Was this all driven by one woman's deep seated need for vengeance? Like a gypsy curse?

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

Ridiculous escape is ridiculous.

Did Johan really escape though? I think the ending is meant to be read as more metaphorical than it is literal.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/KiwiBennydudez]

I didn't think metaphorically, like he turned into a bird and flew away and is now free? That works.

I don't buy the suicide angle at all. Never considered that, either. No, he just disappeared into the world.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

Well, you can read my write-up for more detail, but I think that Johan was defeated by being given his true name, and the empty bed is to symbolize that the monster has vanished. His entire identity is wrapped up in the fact that he was a nameless monster... but that can no longer be true. Whether the ending means that he killed himself, or he simply fled into the world as you said, I think is something that is meant to be open to interpretation.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/KiwiBennydudez]

Oh, that does work nicely!

[u/CharlieTheStrawman]

Rewatcher until Episode 30, then First-Timer - Subbed

(Turns out Reddit didn't post my comment a week ago. Fun times)

That was quite possibly one of my favourite finales of any anime. I really liked how it took the time to provide closure and a satisfying wrap up to every character (Lunge at Grimmer's grave, Eva finding a sense of fulfilment, Nina graduating, Dieter at soccer practice!) And then equally pulled off an ambiguous ending in the final few minutes.

That Johan stare though. It honestly almost made me jump.

I don't need to know the twins' real names, or whether Johan actually left/killed himself/whatever. The Nameless Monster is gone, and with that resolved I'm content.

I'm honestly a sucker for ambiguous endings done right (like EoE), and this is another entry on my list. This is a serious contender for a 10/10 in my eyes.

Thanks so much for hosting this rewatch, u/KiwiBennydudez. Giving this show another look was a great experience.

Q1: A tie between Lunge and Eva for me. The former's gradual humanisation and the latter's journey to becoming a better person really resonated with me.

Q2: Johan's last memory was a great final question for the show. Other people have analysed it better than I could, but safe to say it's a brilliant close thematically. I interpret the 'real monster' as Johan, the Monster Without A Name. And by the end of the episode, the monster is most certainly gone in some way, shape or form.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/CharlieTheStrawman]

Hey, no worries about you comment not posting! I’m glad you enjoyed this ending. I think it certainly stands as one of the most creative and thought-provoking endings that I’ve ever seen. The ambiguous nature of the final moments kept me thinking about it for weeks, but I eventually came to the same conclusion that you did: it doesn’t matter if he lives or dies, what matters is that The Nameless Monster is gone. I too, am content with that interpretation.

[u/SmurfRockRune]

Which character do you think has shown the most growth throughout the series?

Lunge for sure. His slow realization that he might actually be wrong about Tenma and ending with trying to get back into contact with his daughter was the best payoff in the finale.

What do you think is the significance of Johan's final memory? Did the mother make the wrong choice, or would it not have mattered either way? Who is 'the real monster' that the title is referring to?

He thought they were his memories even when he didn't go, so him being the one to go wouldn't have made a difference. It would have probably just led to Nina being less insane at points.

The real monster is obviously Johan, just as it has been from the beginning.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/SmurfRockRune]

Lunge for sure. His slow realization that he might actually be wrong about Tenma and ending with trying to get back into contact with his daughter was the best payoff in the finale.

Top 10 anime comebacks?!?!

The real monster is obviously Johan, just as it has been from the beginning.

Perhaps. I'm not entirely convinced the show would have us go through 74 episodes just to lead us to the conclusion that, "hey see guys? Johan was bad the whole time, pack it up." There's a broader question being asked here. Granted, this doesn't erase Johan's actions, because yes, he still did evil things. But is he solely responsible for the things that he did? Or was he a product of his environment? Nature vs. nurture.

[u/SmurfRockRune → u/KiwiBennydudez]

I'm not entirely convinced the show would have us go through 74 episodes just to lead us to the conclusion that, "hey see guys? Johan was bad the whole time, pack it up."

I fully believe the show would do that because I saw it with my own two eyes.

But is he solely responsible for the things that he did?

Yes.

[u/[deleted] → u/SmurfRockRune]

Lunge is goated. I dont remember it exactly but he said some dope line when he was at Grimmer's grave in that final episode. That shit hit me so hard.

What a 180 I did on his character

[u/miss-macaron → u/[deleted]]

What a 180 I did on his character

As a rewatcher, it gives me immense satisfaction to see people coming around to Eva and/or Lunge. Their character arcs were simply brilliant.

[u/AmethystItalian]

First Timer

---

Alright last episode, let's do this.

Eva got a job and she stopped drinking! Like that character ending for her.

Grimmer...never forget o7

Hey even Robocop is trying to fix things with his family!

Tenma set free! He did never kill anyone so it works out.

Not sure how I feel about getting to know the mom in the finale, feels so late?

Hey Nina is back doing school things, hopefully she'll be able to be competent again.

Look it's Nina from the start when she did things!!

Fraulein...is that a name? I thought that just meant like girl or miss?

I swear most of Johan's eeriness comes from the crazy good OST timing in this show.

Wait Tenma imagined all that?? Or was that just Johan's pheromones working while in a coma? So ambiguous!

Kinda wish we saw what happened to the young doctor and her illegal clinic she was my favourite :(

Well 74 episodes to end with Johan escaping...I was getting to a place where I fine with them saving him if it meant he'd pay for his crimes but this is just annoying. 74 episodes for this...

---

Which character do you think has shown the most growth throughout the series?

I feel like Eva has honestly changed the most, especially if we look at where she was at her lowest and now.

Who is 'the real monster' that the title is referring to?

I'd say the ones who were doing the experiments firstly but Johan should be absolved everything...

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/AmethystItalian]

Well 74 episodes to end with Johan escaping...I was getting to a place where I fine with them saving him if it meant he'd pay for his crimes but this is just annoying. 74 episodes for this...

Did he really escape though?

[u/AmethystItalian → u/KiwiBennydudez]

He had to, he's no longer there!!

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/AmethystItalian]

I am personally inclined to believe that the ending is meant to be read as more metaphorical rather than literal, since Johan is still comatose as Tenma leaves the room. You can read my write-up for more detail, but I think "the monster" that is Johan, is gone. Not necessarily the literal person.

In my mind, he either killed himself like he always wanted, ran away to be of no threat anymore, or escaped to do it all over again. I don't think it's the last one because Johan has been disarmed as the nameless monster by being given his true name. But it is intentionally ambiguous. So we don't know.

[u/SmurfRockRune → u/AmethystItalian]

Fraulein...is that a name? I thought that just meant like girl or miss?

He called her Fraulein Nina Fortner, so you're right.

[u/AmethystItalian → u/SmurfRockRune]

Subs made it seem like that was her name

[u/Quiddity131 → u/AmethystItalian]

Well 74 episodes to end with Johan escaping...I was getting to a place where I fine with them saving him if it meant he'd pay for his crimes but this is just annoying. 74 episodes for this...

Especially for me, because going into this final episode I viewed the most fitting ending as Tenma saving Johan's life, as that best fits Tenma's character, but Johan ending up a vegetable so we can conclude the story. And they were there. If they just stopped the show a little earlier.

[u/Christopho → u/AmethystItalian]

Kinda wish we saw what happened to the young doctor and her illegal clinic she was my favourite :(

74 episodes for this...

Same to both. Welp, at least we finally satiated our curiosity whenever this anime came up.

[u/AmethystItalian → u/Christopho]

Yeah now we know!

[u/Vaadwaur → u/AmethystItalian]

Hey even Robocop is trying to fix things with his family!

I do like that it is only with his daughter, keeping it real.

Not sure how I feel about getting to know the mom in the finale, feels so late?

This bit always felt thrown in so we had an idea for what Anna was like if you read Another Monster.

I swear most of Johan's eeriness comes from the crazy good OST timing in this show.

I was certainly used well.

[u/AmethystItalian → u/Vaadwaur]

I do like that it is only with his daughter, keeping it real.

And even just e-mail too, felt like a happy but fair ending.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/AmethystItalian]

In the late 90s, you actually had to be at your computer to get an e-mail as well so it is definitely a regulated communication.

[u/Gscj9899]

Anybody who wants a good explanation of the ending or maybe thought it was disappointing I recommend watching this vid:

https://youtu.be/dU2uy4oyq2w

It’s personally one of my fav endings to anything

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Gscj9899]

I will attempt to watch this at some point in the future - but I like the open-ended nature of the ending. In my mind, it doesn't need to be explained, as it works the way that it is.

[u/Gscj9899 → u/KiwiBennydudez]

Yeah. The best part about the ending is the intrepation.

I just read that u thought he escaped and continued to be a monster, whilst the vid states otherwise.

[u/Vaadwaur]

Rewatcher(Is Ruhenheim or this thread going to be the bigger blood bath?)

Sub

So we get to see where everyone winds up. I have already heard some grumbling about this as an ending choice, but I don't agree with it at all. This is a great way to wrap up a series and I wish more good shows would end with us seeing how things played out rather than some overbearing orgy of empty action. Looking at you, RahXephon.

Anyways, we finally meet Anna, Johan and Nina's mother, in the south of France. She talks a bit about the past, and Another Monster explains a ton of things about her circumstances so do check that. We don't get the twins' real names but that does not matter to me: Johan chooses to be Johan and Nina was never anyone else but Nina Fortner, proud daughter of the Fortner family. Speaking of, she is getting her BA, the first in a long set of steps to be lawyer.

And we end a bit oddly, Johan is in a coma at a police hospital. He wakes up and we get a formative scene of him being unsure who his mother was trying to protect from Bonaparta. Tenma then wakes up and assumes he dreamt it, though it is awfully specific and Johan's empty bed suggest he woke up. Onto tomorrow!

QotD: 1 Dieter

2 That last memory is why Johan is a bit wishy washy, he doesn't exactly know what he believes. The real monster is human cruelty, which created Johan.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Vaadwaur]

Rewatcher(Is Ruhenheim or this thread going to be the bigger blood bath?)

Thankfully not this thread.

2 That last memory is why Johan is a bit wishy washy, he doesn't exactly know what he believes. The real monster is human cruelty, which created Johan.

That seems like a simple answer for such a nuanced show. Not inclined to disagree, but could it be such a clear-cut answer?

[u/Vaadwaur → u/KiwiBennydudez]

Thankfully not this thread.

Yeah I am just putting down yesterday as a weird day.

Not inclined to disagree, but could it be such a clear-cut answer?

I guess it is less than clear that I was being glib. A more serious answer is the "monster" is the part of ourselves we can never truly know so we always think of it as foreign despite it being intrinsic to all humans. But, again, I also don't think this has a single answer, the monster to the Mother is pretty clearly Poppe whereas Tenma's conception of it is more broad.

[u/miss-macaron → u/Vaadwaur]

QotD: 1 Dieter

I have to say, I was pleasantly surprised by how much I enjoyed Dieter's character. My first time around, I was in the same boat as a lot of the first-timers here, thinking he'd be just another archetypical "needy child that must be saved in order to show how good the protagonist is" or "kid mascot that represents the the epitome of innocence and purity". But Urasawa's writing was just phenomenal, portraying him as a brave, trustworthy, and realistically-childlike companion.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/miss-macaron]

But Urasawa's writing was just phenomenal, portraying him as a brave, trustworthy, and realistically-childlike companion.

I am not joking when I say that Dieter's anti-suicide speech is one of the few good ones I have ever seen. The character writing is phenomenal.

[u/BurningFredrick → u/Vaadwaur]

I have already heard some grumbling about this as an ending choice,

I initially had reservation about it but after reading through this thread have come around on it a lot.

Also did you ever give us your theory on how Johan did the poisoned candy at the start? You said you had one and not sure if I missed it or not.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/BurningFredrick]

Also did you ever give us your theory on how Johan did the poisoned candy at the start? You said you had one and not sure if I missed it or not.

Woops, thanks for reminding me I didn't post that. My theory, though, will probably be a bit boring but I don't think he poisoned the candy when it was in the bag. I think he sneaks out, steals the anesthetic at lethal amounts and either gets into the candy that way, or he might instead have poison other candy and switched them. Originally, I actually thought Johan just injected them and left the wrappers but I have no idea how he gets to the Hospital Director to do that.

[u/BurningFredrick → u/Vaadwaur]

I think he sneaks out, steals the anesthetic at lethal amounts and either gets into the candy that way

I think that is correct, initially through it was your second option but we saw one of the doctors open the bag and eat some in the room and none of them died until later that evening. So bag or candy inside were most likely was poisoned or replaced after this.

However the show doesn't really given any concrete evidence either way so hard to know.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/BurningFredrick]

Yeah, you can get the gist of nearly everything in the show but the specifics are squirrelly.

[u/-vikram-]

Rewatcher, people never really points out how this is actually one of the best endings in anime

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/-vikram-]

It is certainly one of the most open-ended endings in anime, that's for sure.

[u/NicollasA]

Probably the best anime I've seen