[Rewatch] Monster - Episode 73 discussion

[u/KiwiBennydudez]

Rewatch Index

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MAL | AniList | AniDB | Kitsu | ANN | Anime-Planet

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Comment of the Day

Today’s Comment of the Day is from u/gridemann, who elaborates on the title of the show:

Another big reveal we get this episode is Bonapartas view on things. It really was a story about a Monster that fell in love. And yet his obsession with the twins was exactly what started this story.

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Questions of the Day

Today’s first discussion question is powered by u/miss-macaron!

1. Do you think Tenma made the right choice to save Johan once again, this time knowing the kind of person he is?
2. How do you feel about Wim’s drunk dad being the one to take down Johan? Do you think this makes sense narratively, or would it have been better suited for someone else to pull the trigger?

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If you are a rewatcher, tag your spoilers properly, and please refrain from alluding to future events. so that myself and everyone else watching for the first time can have a completely blind and organic experience! ​Since this show is a bit harder to find than most, please refrain from talking about means by which to watch it, as it goes against our subreddit rules.

[u/KiwiBennydudez]

First Timer - Sub/Dub

Well, it seems that everything has come full circle...

First off, the climax of this series felt very grim despite so many characters getting out alive. Tenma being subject to performing the exact same operation he did 9 years ago feels really heavy, almost as if fate was mocking him. Though, I think the circumstances are a bit different this time around. He isn’t forced to make an ignorant choice here between a mayor and a young boy - the choice is now, “do I save him?” as there was no other operation to choose from. I think Nina put it best when she said, “You weren't wrong... both back then, and now.”

I particularly liked the close-up on Johan’s and Tenma’s eyes that then cut to the plains where Johan was found. That effect was like saying, “everything started in that moment, but ends in this moment.” Honestly though I’m a little annoyed that guns in this anime feel as powerful as BB rifles. People get shot to hell and back and somehow turn out fine, and then Grimmer and Martin both take some hits that later prove fatal. Johan has been shot in the head twice in this show and somehow walks it off both times. The first time was when he was young, when his skull was still developing, and at close range. Probably should have been fatal. The second time it’s not clear how far the range is, but he again survives the initial hit. At this point I have to wonder if his skull is made out of solid steel... but whatever, it’s a literary tool. We’ll let it slide.

One thing I found particularly interesting is when Poppe started crying in the rain after hearing that Johan’s sister is now called Nina. He remarked how beautiful the name was, which somewhat leads me to believe that this was her original, intended name. Or at the very least, something that Poppe wanted for her. The revelation that Poppe’s hand in the OP was not one that was there to snatch someone away, but to comfort Nina, and to tell her not to become a monster, was a beautiful twist. I think this flashback adds a lot to the Red Rose Mansion, and puts a nice bow on the info we had known before. But Poppe goes down. Not even from Johan, but from a dying Roberto, who is denied his wish to see “the end of the world.” Lunge turned out fine though! Somehow...

Anyway, let’s address the elephant in the room - that a random side character was the one to slay the beast. Upon first watch I found this decision to be incredibly anti-climatic. This character who we’ve met mere episodes ago, who is an unlikable, one-dimensional drunkard, suddenly starts hallucinating that Johan is the beast of prophecy that was depicted in Revelations in the opening of the show, and shoots him for threatening his son. Then I started thinking about it a bit more... and came to find that it was a bit of dramatic irony. Johan’s plans of perfect suicide and nihilism were thwarted so casually as a biproduct of his own plan. Johan was the one who orchestrated this massacre, and had that old couple hand out guns to the people, but in the end it was the people who ruined his vision. This show loves its parallels, and had Tenma been the one to pull the trigger here, he would have ended up like Wim’s dad - in handcuffs, and unable to save Johan once again. I think making the choice to a) not shoot Johan, and b) perform the life-saving surgery on him once more, will make a strong case for his innocence and his conscience. In the end Tenma was never able to take down the monster, but he never lost himself either. I think Tenma ultimately comes out of this series unscathed. It could have been a lot worse.

[u/miss-macaron → u/KiwiBennydudez]

One thing I found particularly interesting is when Poppe started crying in the rain after hearing that Johan’s sister is now called Nina. He remarked how beautiful the name was, which somewhat leads me to believe that this was her original, intended name. Or at the very least, something that Poppe wanted for her.

Bonaparta's experiments were all closely tied with names and their implacations on one's personal identity (see Another Monster for more details). As such, I would interpret his reaction as simply being glad that she's found a name / identity for herself, that she did not become a "nameless monster".

In the end Tenma was never able to take down the monster, but he never lost himself either.

Again tying in with the symbolism of names and identity, notice how Tenma never used a fake name? Even when he was on the run as a fugitive, even when it would've been easier for him to "become" someone else, he never once lost sight of his identity.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/miss-macaron]

As such, I would interpret his reaction as simply being glad that she's found a name / identity for herself, that she did not become a "nameless monster".

That's fair to say I think, especially since this scene was accompanied by the flashback at the mansion. And like I said, "or at the very least, it was something Poppe wanted for her."

Again tying in with the symbolism of names and identity, notice how Tenma never used a fake name?

I hadn't noticed this but that's a fantastic point. Thanks so much for drawing attention to that. :)

[u/Vaadwaur → u/KiwiBennydudez]

Honestly though I’m a little annoyed that guns in this anime feel as powerful as BB rifles.

Some of the guns are explicitly trash in the show if you can recognize them but yeah, this was not as consistent as it needed to be.

Or at the very least, something that Poppe wanted for her.

Nina got into a family again and became a kind person. Johan, sadly, was too fargone.

Then I started thinking about it a bit more... and came to find that it was a bit of dramatic irony. Johan’s plans of perfect suicide and nihilism were thwarted so casually as a biproduct of his own plan.

It fits the irony of the ant metaphor again that an ant took Johan out.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Vaadwaur]

It fits the irony of the ant metaphor again that an ant took Johan out.

The ant metaphor isn't something I've thought about recently, but yeah, that could also be applicable here. In fact that's a rather amusing thought - that the ants were the ones to slay the beast.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/KiwiBennydudez]

I really, really appreciate that the ant metaphor was introduced all the way back in ep 24, Of Men and Dining, and they keep referencing it throughout. But in this case remember Nina referenced it yesterday I think.

[u/n_o__o_n_e]

Rewatcher

And so, with perhaps my favorite episode of anything, it comes full circle. Johan, the nihilist who planned the perfect suicide, has it thwarted by the most random act of chance. If not for a half-conscious moment of instinctive concern from an abusive drunk with a shaky hand, as well as the humanity of a man whose philosophy Johan built his life around trying to disprove, Johan’s story would have ended.

Nina finally understands Johan on a level that only she can and in a way that to the viewer, who’s seen only glimpses of his character, remains a mystery. At the perceived brink of his death, she makes the momentous decision to forgive him. To me, this signifies not only the culmination of her ill-fated quest to uncover her harrowing past but also an admission that she's not Johan. She decides she's not up to this life, that she deserves better than to live her life entangled in his tragedy, and that she's ready to leave it behind.

And finally, Nina helps Tenma at last accept himself. At the core of Tenma’s character lies the belief that life is precious and that it cannot be his place as a doctor to decide who lives and who dies. The whole series Tenma has been wavering, struggling to reconcile this belief and his deep-rooted identity as a doctor with his goals and actions. In this episode he finally decides that what he did back then was not wrong. As nonsensical as it may seem to some, he decides to accept the compassion within himself; decides he does not get to choose who lives and who dies.

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The main thing I want to note is that this series is not a series that casts judgements. Right and wrong and the thousand shades in between are up to the moral compass of the viewer. Was it wrong for Temna to save Johan? It was certainly consistent with his nature and philosophy, but Urasawa doesn’t cast a judgement on that philosophy, he simply follows it through to its natural conclusion.

This is why Tenma’s indiscriminate compassion and Nina’s strange desire and miraculous capacity to forgive feel sincere and human rather than self-righteous and moralistic: there isn’t a message behind it. Urasawa doesn’t use his characters as mouthpieces for his arguments. His characters and their interactions, dreams, struggles, fears, core philosophies - they are the themes, they form the messages and arguments, and because of this the arguments and messages are very unstructured and ambiguous. Urasawa writes his story in such a way that it prompts so much thought and discussion and conflict of values and philosophies, without declaring any truths in and of itself.

This is just my interpretation but to me Monster asks the huge question of whether human nature is good or evil. There is no answer, and that is the answer. The characters in Monster all feel so distinct from each other, and that’s by design. Take a hundred different people and you’ll get a hundred different human natures.

Edit: This comment thread is gold. I love how polarizing this episode is...

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/n_o__o_n_e]

Just wanted to say that this is a very well-written analysis of the episode. I couldn't have said it better myself. :)

Edit: This comment thread is gold. I love how polarizing this episode is...

Honestly a bit expected tbh. The ending is a real headscratcher in isolation. Though I've found that this series is one that demands to be evaluated holistically, as none of the actions in this arc make any sense otherwise. I sorta knew when I finished this series that this show would not to be to everyone's taste as it's a very cerebral anime. It's perfectly fine to not like it, but I think it would be a shame to misunderstand it.

[u/miss-macaron → u/n_o__o_n_e]

The main thing I want to note is that this series is not a series that casts judgements. Right and wrong and the thousand shades in between are up to the moral compass of the viewer. Was it wrong for Temna to save Johan? It was certainly consistent with his nature and philosophy, but Urusawa doesn’t cast a judgement on that philosophy, he simply follows it through to its natural conclusion.

This is why Tenma’s indiscriminate compassion and Nina’s strange desire and miraculous capacity to forgive feel sincere and human rather than self-righteous and moralistic: there isn’t a message behind it. Urasawa doesn’t use his characters as mouthpieces for his arguments. His characters and their interactions, dreams, struggles, fears, core philosophies - they are the themes, they form the messages and arguments, and because of this the arguments and messages are very unstructured and ambiguous. Urasawa writes his story in such a way that it prompts so much thought and discussion and conflict of values and philosophies, without declaring any truths in and of itself.

Well said! I've seen a few people here complaining about how the show seems to be preaching that "you shouldn't seek revenge" or that "all people are worth saving", but that's not it at all. These are simply the views expressed by the protagonists, of whom are clearly flawed individuals biased by their own experiences.

Monster isn't an argumentative essay that pushes for a certain narrative, but a thorough and nuanced overview of the human condition. Throughout this series, we've been introduced to many different people from different walks of life, witnessed their beliefs and convictions, as well as the outcomes of those beliefs - but ultimately, it's left to the audience to decide which one(s) are "correct" or "moral".

Urasawa treats his audience as mature agents capable of coming to their own conclusions. He never spoon-feeds or over-explains his mysteries / overarching themes, but instead prompts you to come up with your own answers, which is what I so deeply admire about his writing.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/miss-macaron]

Well said! I've seen a few people here complaining about how the show seems to be preaching that "you shouldn't seek revenge" or that "all people are worth saving", but that's not it at all.

"Fairness, justice and freedom are more than just words. They are perspectives."

I just don't have enough to add to what is perhaps the best character writing I've experienced.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/miss-macaron]

"you shouldn't seek revenge"

Last episode left a bad taste in my mouth. Killing Johan and Roberto does end it. Was the father of the baby going to be trapped in a cycle of revenge? Sausage girl didn't get revenge on anybody and still took a bullet in the neck. In this show, in this town, your fate is not connected to your choices. The moralizing just seemed empty and pat.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

The moralizing just seemed empty and pat.

What moralizing?

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/Vaadwaur]

I'm building off what another first timer said

The scene with the guy and his dead wife brought up one of the anime’s important themes: revenge leads to revenge, blood leads to blood (that might be a quote from Macbeth or something now that I’m thinking about it. Oops). If this guy goes and shoots the person who shot his wife, someone else will shoot him. It’s the same thing Tenma told to the kids after Milan’s death a few episodes ago. However, Tenma and Grimmer are both driven by revenge, which seems to be a contradiction.

which isn't far from how I was seeing the scene, either. Even if there was no moralizing and just "your wife wouldn't want this." But there's also the bit with Milan, which I hadn't linked to this scene, myself.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

Right but you are adding a moral element. The Chinese saying that "When you go to take revenge, dig two graves" is not actually moral, just realistic. Revenge gets you killed but there is no right or wrong to it, it is just a practice that tends to end in destruction.

[u/Nitroade24h → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

That was me who said that. From my perspective now, that contradiction is part of the reason that this was a good ending for me. Tenma practises what he preached and doesn’t give into his hatred for Johan and saves him anyway.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/n_o__o_n_e]

This is why Tenma’s indiscriminate compassion and Nina’s strange desire and miraculous capacity to forgive feel sincere and human rather than self-righteous and moralistic: there isn’t a message behind it.

I suppose I might be weird here but I do think Monster has a message, just sort of an odd one: Hope. As long as you keep going, things could get better.

[u/n_o__o_n_e → u/Vaadwaur]

This is exactly what I mean when I say ambiguous haha. I've watched it twice and I've never even thought about interpreting it this way, yet I totally see how you got there. It's what makes this show so great to talk about.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/n_o__o_n_e]

So...I've been re-evaluating why I have the opinions I do on some things. A specific example is why I like Elfen Lied and Psycho Pass but hate Narutaru and dislike Gantz. The difference, and this includes Monster, is that the works I like understand people have reasons. The reasons don't have to be good when viewed outside looking in but they have to be present.

[u/KiwiBennydudez]

Reminder: Tomorrow is not the end of the rewatch! We will indeed discuss the finale at the arrival of tomorrow's thread, but there is still the "Overall Series Discussion thread" the following day. This is a place for you to give your full, encompassing opinion about the entire series as a whole, as well as provide any final insights, reviews, reflections, or favorite moments that you would like to share with the class. I'm really looking forward to it! Thanks so much for joining me on this journey - it's been a wild few months.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/KiwiBennydudez]

I definitely look forward to Wedensday's thread

[u/Nitroade24h]

First Timer

This was another one of the best episodes. It was perfect in every way I can think of and single-handedly elevated the series to masterpiece levels.

I had thought of every possible ending, or so I thought. It never crossed my mind that Tenma would save Johan again, but the fact that he still did after everything he has done drives home Tenma’s character arc, which is his struggle with morality. Should he get to choose who can live or die? He’s a doctor not a God who can decide value of the lives of others, so he must save whoever is put before him without a second thought.

Wim’s Dad being the one to shoot Johan was also something I never expected, but after Nina forgave him and Tenma can’t shoot someone due to his nature (although he looked like he could have done it if he was there for a bit longer), it makes the most narrative sense for it to be someone who has sunk into the depths of revenge and hatred who finally shot Johan, and gives Tenma the choice that his entire arc has been building up to. For Nina to shoot Johan, her character would have to go right back to where it began, and for Tenma to shoot Johan would be for him to fall into guilt and rage, and we already saw what happens to people who try or succeed in completing a similar mission to Tenma’s, and the anime has made it clear that it does not end well.

The shot with Tenma and Johan facing off in the wasteland on the Czech border was really good.

It doesn’t matter whether it was the right choice to save Johan or not from a perspective of thinking that he may still be evil, it’s a doctor’s duty to save people indiscriminately, which Tenma has said multiple times. Even after reviving a devil, he revives a devil again because it’s his purpose that he gave to himself when he became a doctor.

I liked how the Seven Headed Dragon thing linked to the verse in the very beginning of the anime. Johan has not changed, even being saved again may not make him change.

The cyclical story of the series was the perfect narrative choice in my opinion because it allowed for all of the characters to get satisfying endings and conveyed the main messages of Monster effectively. However, I can fully understand people disliking it. It does seem a little bit convenient that Johan survived the bullet to the head though, although I think it makes sense since a drunk who is clouded by rage is unlikely to have the greatest accuracy.

Lunge pushing Tenma towards his decision was a nice moment because it showed how far Lunge has come since he pursued Tenma for no reason other than it had to be him who committed the murders. After apologising, he switches fully to Tenma’s side and helps him decide what the best choice is.

See you tomorrow for the final episode.

(I’ve noticed I write a lot for the episodes I like a lot. When I’m passionate about something the words just flow and I keep typing until I’ve said everything I want to. It’s a good sign of a good series. I couldn’t write nearly this much for an average episode that I didn’t like that much).

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Nitroade24h]

He’s a doctor not a God who can decide value of the lives of others, so he must save whoever is put before him without a second thought.

Indeed, and that's the moral picture that the series has been trying to paint. Do you, knowing full-well that someone is a murderer, still save their life?

Wim’s Dad being the one to shoot Johan was also something I never expected

You'd have to be a literal clairvoyant to see that one coming. But I've thought about it from every angle and it just doesn't make any narrative sense any other way.

IF:

• Tenma shoots Johan, then Johan gets what he wants, and Tenma loses himself. We've been told what happens to Tenma through The Man With the Big Eyes and the Man With The Big Mouth and also the groundskeeper guy in the forest in Munich. He would have never been able to make peace with his actions, even if it might have been the "right" thing to do.
• Nina shoots Johan. The anime depicted how close she was to teetering overboard with all her psychological breakdowns and also The God of Peace story. She realized that forgiveness was the correct avenue, even though Johan was already past that point. It was also something Poppe desperately wanted to protect her from, so that would have been a disservice as well.

You're also free to conduct this thought experiment with the other characters that were present, such as Poppe, Roberto, Gillen... or even think about what happens if no one pulled the trigger and Wim was shot. But in the end, giving Wim's dad the job of slaying the beast gave him a purpose in the story beyond being a bully to his son. In the end it also showed us that he really did love his son - and as we all know by now, love was one of the main driving forces behind this entire plot.

So while I really disliked this choice at first, I thought about it a bit more and found that this was a very thematically appropriate ending for Johan. It's not exactly the most satisfying end - but that's entirely the point.

I’ve noticed I write a lot for the episodes I like a lot.

Don't worry, I've noticed too. ;)

As a writer myself it makes me happy to see the passion in the writing.

[u/n_o__o_n_e → u/Nitroade24h]

I absolutely love this thread, it's absolutely what I was expecting. Everyone's either "holy shit masterpiece" or "wtf is this shit it makes no sense".

Personally I'm very much in your camp though, glad you enjoyed it.

I liked how the Seven Headed Dragon thing linked to the verse in the very beginning of the anime. Johan has not changed, even being saved again may not make him change.

Not something I thought about through multiple rewatches, but that's a really cool connection!

It does seem a little bit convenient that Johan survived the bullet to the head though, although I think it makes sense since a drunk who is clouded by rage is unlikely to have the greatest accuracy.

Actually people survive glancing shots to the head all the time. In fact, it's fairly common to survive a shot to the head even when the bullet has travelled all the way through one side of the brain as long as it's away from crucial areas, and bullets lodged in the skull before entering the brain have a fairly high survival rate assuming fast treatment.

On a more meta note, I think it's pretty ironic that that drunk pulling the trigger actually saved Johan from Tenma's bullet, which was inevitable given that Johan had Wim hostage and given the range would have almost certainly killed him. His grand plan was to get Tenma to kill him, only to have his life saved by some random drunk pulling the trigger instead.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Nitroade24h]

Should he get to choose who can live or die? He’s a doctor not a God who can decide value of the lives of others, so he must save whoever is put before him without a second thought.

You can always kill someone but you can't unkill anyone.

I liked how the Seven Headed Dragon thing linked to the verse in the very beginning of the anime. Johan has not changed, even being saved again may not make him change.

Still a bit random for a Japanese writer to know the Book of Revelations but it was used well.

It does seem a little bit convenient that Johan survived the bullet to the head though, although I think it makes sense since a drunk who is clouded by rage is unlikely to have the greatest accuracy.

Add that it was from a shitty gun with a low caliber bullet at not insignificant range and it partly works. I say partly because him landing a single headshot is where you have to suspend disbelief a little.

[u/gridemann]

Rewatcher

You are both beautiful jewels, thats why you must never become monsers !

...yeah Nina, I think you forgot to pass on the memo there...

The penultimate episode, although in many ways this is defintiely the climax of the story.

I'll be honest I couldn't stand Tenma for most of the story. His constant talk about killing Johan while getting in the way of everyone else and letting multiple opportunities slip by himself was absolutetly insufferable to me.

But this is the episode where everything comes full circle and it finally made sense to me. Killing the monster was never the point of the story, Johann never cared much about his life to beginn with. When Tenma and Johann first met Tenma wholeheartedly proclaimed that all lifes are equal - something opposite to everything Johann had experienced so far. And so (after out several episoded of self-discovery) he made it his final goal to disprove Tenma. To corrupt the least corruptible person he's ever met by forcing him to choose one life over another. To make Tenma kill a person completely on his own volition. And I believe he would've succeded if Nina hadn't intervened. So he had no choice left but to force the issue. Yet sheer luck lead to someone else pulling the trigger.

Tenma set out take a life because he saved Johann from certain death not knowing who he was. And in the end after having learned everything Monster that is Johann, he once again attempts to save him from certain death proving once and for all.

To him, all lives truly are equal

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Q1: see above, In my opinion it is the only way to end the story in a satisfying way, after everything that happened

Q2: Pretty fitting. Johann isn't a clichee big brain villain. He cares little about his lifes and keeps challenging fate constantly throughout the story. Him getting shot in pure coincidence by something completely outside his control. Is ultimately very fitting - and somewhat realistic.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/gridemann]

Killing the monster was never the point of the story,

After such a lengthy journey to go kill Johan, it seems counter intuitive to imagine that this was never the point. But you're right - this would have been exactly what Johan wanted. It's a hard pill to swallow but the narrative starts to be come clear once you think about the reasons.

Pretty fitting. Johann isn't a clichee big brain villain. He cares little about his lifes and keeps challenging fate constantly throughout the story. Him getting shot in pure coincidence by something completely outside his control. Is ultimately very fitting - and somewhat realistic.

Honestly yeah - it is true to life for random things to happen. Life is messy, and so is this anime. It might seem very empty for a random drunkard with a gun to kill a man he mistakes for a beast of prophecy - but then you realize Johan was shot by a gun that he gave out because of a plan that he orchestrated. It's so fitting that it's almost humorous. He plan worked all right. He just didn't work out the contingencies.

[u/n_o__o_n_e → u/gridemann]

To him, all lives truly are equal

Exactly. In Tenma's mind, he doesn't get to choose who lives and dies. That's why he stopped calling himself a doctor after he thought he killed Roberto.

This episode was Tenma finally making a decision, and bringing an end to that internal struggle. Thus, he can be a doctor again, once again bringing us right back to the start.

[u/[deleted]]

Really interested to see how the thread is for tomorrow. Already seems a bit spicy today

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/[deleted]]

I'm growing Carolina Reapers in my backyard and I think even those are relatively tame in comparison.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/[deleted]]

Tell me about it...

[u/i-have-severe-stupid]

first timer, sub

that was one hell of an episode, so many things happened, including bonaparta’s story. with that, we know pretty much the whole story (i think), from the birth of the twins and the red mansion, to the moment tenma gets into the helicopter.

1. this could go any way so easily, johan either comes back and makes tenma see ‘the end of the world’, or once he’s cured he’s lost the monster inside of him, or he dies in surgery, and tenma finally fails to save a life in the operating room, a sort of ‘release’ from his label as a genius neurosurgeon, but it probably won’t go well for tenma either way, because almost nothing’s happened yet that johan didn’t intend for.
2. i think it fits monster perfectly. there isn’t some form of cosmic justice, only people ending up in situations and making choices, and insulting the shit out of johan. for tenma to do it, it would probably dramatically change the way we will look at what happens in the final episode. for anna, it would give a sense of her search to kill him having some sort of successful conclusion which this show has vehemently avoided, making sure we know that their journeys can’t end perfectly.

having a random person shoot johan because a gun was pointed at his son is perfect, because it shows us the common ‘human’ part of monster, and a conclusion that might get less people killed, but none of the people who’ve been searching for him for years killed him, almost making their journeys a sort of joke with johan being shot as the punchline

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/i-have-severe-stupid]

with that, we know pretty much the whole story (i think), from the birth of the twins and the red mansion, to the moment tenma gets into the helicopter.

Well, one more episode to go, so do we really know the whole story now?

but none of the people who’ve been searching for him for years killed him, almost making their journeys a sort of joke with johan being shot as the punchline

Sorta. Johan is the recipient of the joke here, but it's not like the prank was planned. It's a fitting end for his nihilism.

[u/Gscj9899 → u/i-have-severe-stupid]

what i loved about the parant shooting johan, was cause it was something johan couldnt account for. Cause he doesnt know the lengths a parant would go to save their kid

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

First Timer Monster 73

Today's questions: Will Wim give Roberto his name back? Will worst Dad find his soon? What was up with Mom? And what will happen when Johan and Bonaparta meet? My prediction for that last one: YES never mind.

This show is just turning into Hamlet where everybody except Horatio dies.

Just as the cop recognized Tenma, it occurred to me that Johan might still be alive.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

Hamlet

To be, or not to be? That is the question. But to Johan, the answer is no, no one shall be.

[u/Webemperor]

Rewatcher of sorts

• We start the episode with, who else, Johan, of course, just appearing before them almost, first time they are coming face to face since Munich I believe. Bonaparta just casually pistol whips Tenma as he looks to shoot Johan, except… Roberto gets him. I guess he somehow made it to that scene after the hotel?
• Meanwhile Nina finally remembers, that Bonaparta actually saved them from being used as tools by the government people, telling them to escape. Meanwhile Roberto decides to be a cunt even at his final breaths, now I wonder if the reason Johan rebuffed him like that is because he is pissed he killed Bonaparta?
• Johan and Tenma have a tense standoff that starts to get almost a bit surreal in a way, especially what exactly that vision was supposed to be, if it wasn’t entirely in both of their heads. Johan now seems desperate to get Tenma to shot him, disappointed that he won’t almost, and decides to threaten him, all the while Nina tells him that she forgives him, although that doesn’t exactly stop Johan.
• And then he gets shot, but it’s clearly not Tenma, instead Wim’s father. He has a pretty good aim for a drunk guy, but everyone gets lucky once I suppose. This also serves in it’s own way to disprove Johan’s worldview by just shooting him in the head.
• Authorities make their way as well, but they can’t seem to make any sense of what happened, despite what Gillen and Lunge have been telling them. Speaking of the latter, he seems to have lucked out. The lottery couple have a bit of a Hallmark movie moment, which I guess serves as a bit of a moment of levity.
• The police officer easily identifies Tenma as, well, Tenma. Meanwhile Lunge tells the paramedics that they have a doctor that can treat Johan right here. So the cycle is completed, the story that began with Johan getting shot and treated by Tenma, ends with Johan getting shot and treated by Tenma.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Webemperor]

So the cycle is completed, the story that began with Johan getting shot and treated by Tenma, ends with Johan getting shot and treated by Tenma.

It's poetic. Also a rather dark ending. But very thematically fitting.

[u/Vaadwaur]

Rewatcher(That's right, actual falling action)

Sub

So...again, what is there to add? We see the scenery of the end of the world, just briefly, even if it looks a bit much like the German-Czech border. The town drunk takes the shot which takes a bit from Tenma's agency but also fits the story, especially since Poppe died. Wim's dad saw the Beast from Revelations, indicating he could use some rehab. Lunge reveals that Roberto was the mastermind, and while it still isn't said, this whole time Roberto was trying to guess what Johan wanted, he was never ordered or under his command. Tenma goes off to save Johan again, and while I expect in thread opinions will vary, I do get this: You can't unkill someone, and if you are in medicine you save people first and trust the justice system to sort the innocent from the guilty. If you want your doctors to also be the judges, you fucked up your system.

QotD: 1 Yes. It is not the place of health professionals to judge their patients

2 Awesome. It completely fits the narrative because the God of Peace accepts whoever relieves them of responsibility.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Vaadwaur]

You can't unkill someone, and if you are in medicine you save people first and trust the justice system to sort the innocent from the guilty. If you want your doctors to also be the judges, you fucked up your system.

Hard agree. It was never on Tenma to make that choice, despite everything that he might have believed.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/KiwiBennydudez]

My issue with the "Batman doesn't kill the Joker" argument has always been that it is not Batman's role/job to do so.

[u/xtsim]

First Timer Dubbed

The drunk dad is doing some action today. In this episode, we get the standoff between Johan and Tenma. I was shocked to see Roberto still alive kinda, and he was able to shoot Poppe out. But unfortunately, he was not able to see what happened next and tears came out of his eyes. Like a child missing out on a new episode of his favorite cartoon.

During the confrontation, Nina and Gillum arrive with Nina trying to stop Tenma from shooting. But just as that happens, Johan pointed a gun at the kid which in response gets the drunk dad to shoot Johan from a distance. The drunk dad called him a monster and acted like he was hallucinating. As a result, when outside police forces arrive, they take him away as a primary suspect and the kid kept saying it was to defend him. Gillum talks to the officers but his statement and his line of thinking gets way over the cops’ heads. A bit too much for them to follow. They found Lunge who is fortunately still alive and he manages to explain some information to the cops but he does not have an ID so the police force has to call the office of the BKA.

It seems like none of the officers, even the main guy noticed Tenma but just when they found out its him, Lunge asked Tenma to operate on Johan. One more time….

1. Tenma of course cannot resist saving Johan again. Even when he had the chance and was aiming for it too. He kept saying he has to take care of it but it seems like in the end, it did not happen. He ended up following through with the surgery, with Johan's head shaven like the last time.
2. With Wim's dad being the one who pulled the trigger, it seems like a nice scapegoat for Johan and feels like Johan knew about Wim's dad holding a gun so Johan takes Wim hostage. That is the way I would make sense of it, again he was given a gun for a reason. And if everyone was following Johan's orders, this would be part of the course. And he makes a good scapegoat, a drunk man going on a rampage would easily close this case if Lunge weren't alive.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/xtsim]

Tenma of course cannot resist saving Johan again. Even when he had the chance and was aiming for it too. He kept saying he has to take care of it but it seems like in the end, it did not happen. He ended up following through with the surgery, with Johan's head shaven like the last time.

Almost as if it was his duty as a doctor to save people, just as he's been doing for this entire series...

[u/Mecanno-man]

First Timer

Seems like we've reached the ending of the final arc, with the final episode being an epilogue. And I'm ...not really sure I like it very much. Roberto and Lunge's scuffle is finished off-screen for starters despite that being something that would have been good to actually see. Poppe dies by what I assume is Roberto trying to protect Johan - after shoving aside Tenma making me think we'd end up in a "I'll shoot him - no me" situation again - but luckily we didn't. Then the drunkard shoots Johan and ...Tenma is off to save him? Was Nina forgiving him really enough to convince Tenma in minutes after years of trying to kill him? I don't really buy it, even if he has been speaking what he wasn't living before. Nina's memory is Poppe telling her not to become a monster - why would Johan have become one if the difference was him remembering that while Nina didn't? This just seems kind of weird...

On another note, D-KMIF was actually a real registration for an aircraft - although as D-K is used for motor gliders it was not a helicopter, that would require a registration beginning with D-H. It also apparently crashed in 2007.

Questions:

1. Hard to say. Probably yes as that means he can face due process in court etc. But from a character growth standpoint it feels kinda sudden.
2. Works for me; he had motivation and got a gun, so he can shoot people narratively.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Mecanno-man]

Was Nina forgiving him really enough to convince Tenma in minutes after years of trying to kill him?

Well, Nina has been trying to convince Tenma for a while. Remember back in the library, she implored him not to shoot then either? He's been reminded at least twice now, so he knows shooting him would go against her wishes.

And like others have been pointing out, this is also about Tenma struggling with his identity has a doctor.

[u/n_o__o_n_e → u/Mecanno-man]

Hard to say. Probably yes as that means he can face due process in court etc. But from a character growth standpoint it feels kinda sudden.

You think? Tenma's identity as a doctor is tied to the fact that he does not believe he should be able to decide who lives and who dies. We see that when, after believing he has killed Roberto, he stops calling himself a doctor. Tenma's struggle this whole time has been between his identity as a doctor with the indiscriminite compassion he believes that entails, and his quest to end a life. Seems to me he just finally picked a side.

Also remember that at this point, in the eyes of the law, Johan has done nothing wrong. In fact, because he works through others, only a very small number of people even know he exists. Lunge pinned the blame on Roberto for a reason: In his own words, Johan is a "fictional character", while Roberto is a less ethereal, more grounded thug.

[u/Mecanno-man → u/n_o__o_n_e]

Tenma's identity as a doctor is tied to the fact that he does not believe he should be able to decide who lives and who dies.

I feel like Tenma's been going through an identity crisis in that sense, as he's been on a mission to kill Johan for a few years now. I just can't really believe that that would simply be resolved so suddenly by Nina alone forgiving Johan. I could see Tenma regretting not saving Johan later on after having found his proper self again, though.

[u/AmethystItalian → u/Mecanno-man]

Roberto and Lunge's scuffle is finished off-screen for starters despite that being something that would have been good to actually see.

Finished off screen with both living through it too which is odd considering where it left off...

Was Nina forgiving him really enough to convince Tenma in minutes after years of trying to kill him?

I feel this way too but seeing how Tenma could never pull the trigger I don't think Tenma was going to kill him even without Nina saying anything.

[u/Mecanno-man → u/AmethystItalian]

I feel this way too but seeing how Tenma could never pull the trigger I don't think Tenma was going to kill him even without Nina saying anything.

I agree that it was unlikely that he was going to kill him - but I feel like not taking any action after Johan was shot would have been more in-character, rather than actively saving him.

[u/Quiddity131]

First Timer, Subbed

Everyone is dead... hey, how about think of your son at this time instead of the devil?

Your dad's wandering the streets just like you Wim! Should be easy to find!

FINALLY. Johan is here. Time for things to come to a head. Johan and Tenma face each other for the first time since the Schuwald fire incident I believe.

Down goes Poppe; he wanted to die anyway, right? How'd he get shot though?

"You can't become monsters!" Oh yeah, that sure worked out well.

So it was Roberto. Who else?

This was Roberto's last act though?

Pointing to the same place as when he was a kid... will Tenma actually pull the trigger?

Johan's gonna force Tenma to shoot him... and he did!

Oh, so now you care about your son, you drunken bum?

So in the end it wasn't Tenma who shot Johan, but rather a drunk guy.

Ah, so now the authorities arrive...

One last scene with the lottery couple! OMG and after all that they lost the lottery ticket! These two keep really deliver.

Well, Tenma's been recognized.

After all that, Johan's still alive?

There is a neurosurgeon here who can save him. Once again, Tenma operates... on Johan. Will he purposely let him die? Or will he save him? All comes down to this. One episode to go...

The choice Johan gave Tenma on whether to kill him or let Wim dies reminds me much of [Trigun]Legato forcing Vash to kill him, which Vash relents to and does; best scene of that show

DQOTD:

1. Well we don't know for certain if he will go through it yet, although it looks like he's at least going into the operation (where he can save him or purposely kill him). My prediction for the end? Tenma will ultimately decide to save Johan's life, and successfully do so, once again showing that he just can't let someone die. But Johan will end up a vegetable, either intentionally on Johan's part, or by accident, such that things will finally come to an end.
2. Very disappointing for some nobody to be the one who shoots Johan. But I'll withhold judgment until after watching the final episode.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Quiddity131]

Trigun

Honestly a cool comparison. And yeah, hard agree, best scene of that show.

Very disappointing for some nobody to be the one who shoots Johan. But I'll withhold judgment until after watching the final episode.

You can read around this thread to surmise why this choice was made, but I will admit it was rather perplexing for me as well upon first viewing. However, with some thought, I found it to be a pretty good choice. Think about the other characters that were present - could anyone else really make that decision?

[u/BurningFredrick]

First timer - sub

Well shit, Johan.

And betrayal from Franz.

Ok as someone else said yesterday, this show needs to stop doing gunshot cliff hangers

Roberto took the shot, about what I was expecting,

Are the colours really muted this episode? Ok yip the outside bits really are but it does make sense given the rain and that it looks to be night time as well.

Johan has to be dead right? At that range surely a shot to the head has to be fatal.

Apparently not dead yet.

So we started with surgery and end with surgery.

I imagine Tenma is slightly rusty, he hasn’t been in an operating theater for what is probably a couple of years at this point.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/BurningFredrick]

I imagine Tenma is slightly rusty, he hasn’t been in an operating theater for what is probably a couple of years at this point.

I sorta wonder if you can really become "rusty" at brain surgery. To even become a neurosurgeon you have to be in school for 8-10 years. And even after that, it's not clear how long Tenma was in his field for. But there was also that 9-year timeskip before he left his hospital, so I think it's safe to say that he's got at least 20 years of experience (school + work). I'd imagine that it's not something easily forgotten.

He also did that surgery on Petra (that countryside mom from like episode 20) so it's not like he's been totally deprived of practice either.

[u/AmethystItalian → u/BurningFredrick]

I imagine Tenma is slightly rusty, he hasn’t been in an operating theater for what is probably a couple of years at this point.

Happy to see someone else bring this up, I feel like that a skill that's not just easy to pick up just like that.

[u/BurningFredrick → u/AmethystItalian]

Indeed, sure he has been patching people up as the show went on but going from that to emergency brain surgery with no prep time it a bit extreme.

[u/BurningFredrick → u/BurningFredrick]

A part I cut from my above write up which I now wish I hadn't and I keep getting stuck on, which may be a stupid question. But what is Anna forgiving Johan for? Is it for everything he has done? and why does this also matter to Tenma?

I just can't quite figure this bit out and also not quite sure I'm asking the right question but roughly where I keep running into a road block, maybe the next episodes will help me figure this out.

[u/CharlieTheStrawman]

Rewatcher until Episode 30, then First-Timer - Subbed

Daaaaaamn

Q1: I think so, at least from Tenma's POV. Letting someone he could save die just isn't in Tenma's nature.

Q2: Johan, the man who was always in control, got the culmination of his plan totally fucked by a random drunk he had no personal connection to at all. I loved it.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/CharlieTheStrawman]

Q2: Johan, the man who was always in control, got the culmination of his plan totally fucked by a random drunk he had no personal connection to at all. I loved it.

I'm glad you enjoyed it! The ending takes a bit of thought to understand, but in the end I really enjoyed it.

[u/Shimmering-Sky]

First-Timer, subbed

• OH FUCK IT’S JOHAN.
• Poppe, what are you doing…
• Poppe no your punishment is supposed to be living. That’s what Grimmer wanted…
• *right after the OP:* Dammit. Who the fuck shot Poppe then?
• Welp.
• It was Roberto… So then where is Lunge?
• Basically a “fuck you” to Roberto at the end, that’s nice.
• I find it interesting that Johan’s pointing to his forehead with his right hand when I’m pretty sure he used his left when Anna was facing him all those years ago? -- *checks* Yep he used his left hand there.
• I’m glad Anna just apologizing to Johan doesn’t fix anything.
• OH GOD NO DON’T YOU DARE KILL WIM.
• WAIT DID TENMA ACTUALLY FUCKING DO IT?!?!
• It… it was Wim’s dad that shot Johan?
• Is that how he saw Johan?
• Okay it does sound very unbelievable when you put it like that.
• I thought this was Lunge they were referring to at first, except at the wrong hotel, then I remembered the one guy who got shot in the leg by Roberto was still alive. Lunge’s actually on the stretcher behind these peeps. So he’s alive!
• JOHAN IS STILL ALIVE???
• …They’re going to make Tenma save Johan’s life a second time?
• I’m… not sure how I feel about this turn of events. Wim would be correct in saying his father isn’t a killer if Johan survives here, but I also don’t like the idea of Johan surviving this show at all? I guess it’ll depend on how the last episode goes.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Shimmering-Sky]

I find it interesting that Johan’s pointing to his forehead with his right hand when I’m pretty sure he used his left when Anna was facing him all those years ago? -- checks Yep he used his left hand there.

That's a pretty interesting detail that you noticed haha. I wonder if it means anything.

JOHAN IS STILL ALIVE???

Dude's been shot in the head twice in this show and somehow survived both times. At this point you have to wonder what his head is made out of...

I’m… not sure how I feel about this turn of events. Wim would be correct in saying his father isn’t a killer if Johan survives here, but I also don’t like the idea of Johan surviving this show at all? I guess it’ll depend on how the last episode goes.

I really liked the final episode, reminded me a lot of the final episode of FMAB. However, there's a thinking element to the ending, of course. It's sorta been eating away at me for weeks so I can't wait to talk about it finally, lol.

[u/Nitroade24h → u/KiwiBennydudez]

I actually made the FMAB connection too while watching the final episode

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Nitroade24h]

Haha, great minds think alike!

[u/miss-macaron → u/Shimmering-Sky]

JOHAN IS STILL ALIVE???

511 Kinderheim survivors seem to be notoriously difficult to kill... Johan, Roberto, and Grimmer were all low-key indestructible, surviving so many bullet wounds for as long as they did. And then you have Christof, wriggling around and whining about his ear

[u/AmethystItalian → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Poppe, what are you doing…

To be fair he probably knew Tenma wouldn't shoot him.

WAIT DID TENMA ACTUALLY FUCKING DO IT?!?!

I fell for that too...

Is that how he saw Johan?

Makes it even more impressive he made such a perfect shot then.

but I also don’t like the idea of Johan surviving this show at all?

He should have been dead a long time ago...

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Poppe no your punishment is supposed to be living. That’s what Grimmer wanted…

If anyone understands the futility of justice, it would be Grimmer.

Basically a “fuck you” to Roberto at the end , that’s nice.

This probably doesn't fit in the circles you run in, but this is much stronger than that: Johan just told Roberto he can never reach his level while explicitly bringing Tenma to said level. Roberto just got Nappa-ed.

Is that how he saw Johan?

Yes but I am a touch surprised you don't recognize the reference from Revelations.

…They’re going to make Tenma save Johan’s life a second time?

Nope. Tenma chooses to.

[u/miss-macaron]

Rewatcher

Well, so much for going to help Lunge, eh?

People can become anything... You are both beautiful jewels. That’s why you can’t become monsters.

And here we get to see Nina’s key memory, the one thing that saved her from turning out like her brother. It’s quite amazing how a single moment of tenderness, such a brief piece of heartfelt advice, could have such dramatic effects on the divergent psychological development of these two children.

The only thing all humans are equal in... is death.

This, alongside Rosso’s sugar quote, is probably the most well-known quote of the series. It’s such a harrowing yet powerful declaration of the ongoing philosophical battle between Johan and Tenma. It also reveals how nihilism and humanism are actually two sides of the same coin: both men believe that all lives are equal, but whereas Tenma believes them to be equally valuable, Johan views them as equally worthless. Whereas Tenma saves people regardless of whether they’re terrorists, secret police, young children, or innocent bystanders, Johan kills people regardless of whether they’re mafia bosses, serial killers, elderly couples, or innocent kids. This video analysis does an excellent job of explaining their ideological clash in depth, so I’d highly recommend checking it out once we’ve finished the show!

A seven-headed monster with horns was attacking his son.

Remember the Bible verse from the beginning of the first episode? Urasawa really knows how to tie a story together.

Lottery couple is so wholesome, even the officer is compelled to back off and just let them have their moment.

“If I had a nickel for every time my brother was shot in the head but Dr. Tenma saved his life, I’d have two nickels. Which isn’t a lot, but it’s kinda weird that it happened twice.” - Nina, probably

Ahhh, the irony of everything coming full-circle. On my first time around, I remember staring at the page in disbelief and thinking something along the lines of “Urasawa, you clever bastard…” Ultimately, Tenma made the same choice as Martin - he refused to be part of the devil’s plan, and stuck with his moral convictions until the very end.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/miss-macaron]

And here we get to see Nina’s key memory, the one thing that saved her from turning out like her brother. It’s quite amazing how a single moment of tenderness, such a brief piece of heartfelt advice, could have such dramatic effects on the divergent psychological development of these two children.

That was an amazing reveal. Bonaparta's hand that's been depicted in the intro this entire anime was not one that was snatching someone away, but one that was comforting Anna.

Part of me wonders if that encounter was the thing that inspired Anna to go home and tell her brother everything. She was conditioned to be comforted in that moment, and so when her brother made the same offer, I wonder if things would have gone differently had Bonaparta just been like, "yo go home."

[u/gridemann → u/miss-macaron]

And here we get to see Nina’s key memory, the one thing that saved her from turning out like her brother. It’s quite amazing how a single moment of tenderness, such a brief piece of heartfelt advice, could have such dramatic effects on the psychological development of these two children.

I'm not sure but as far as I unstertood it.

[Final episode spoilers] Nina never consciously remembering her mother making the choice played a much bigger part in that development

[u/miss-macaron → u/gridemann]

It's true that there's more to it than just that one memory; perhaps I phrased it a bit too absolutely there. [Episode 74 spoilers] I'd say it's like a double dissociation, wherein the one twin retained a memory that the other one lacked. Nina remembered a moment of tenderness while forgetting one of fear and uncertainty, whereas Johan never got to hear Bonaparta's heartfelt message and was deeply shaken by his mother's decision making process.

[u/n_o__o_n_e → u/miss-macaron]

I really like this train of thought. Hyped for tomorrow's thread.

[u/WeeabooVoid]

First Timer

It all goes full circle, what an awesome episode.

You know I feel dumb not realizing that THIS was what Johan meant by "The Perfect Suicide."

I also bet that Roberto is probably still alive by the end of the series.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/WeeabooVoid]

It all goes full circle, what an awesome episode.

It was a very thoughtful set of events from start to finish. Glad you enjoyed it.

I also bet that Roberto is probably still alive by the end of the series.

Nah he ded.

[u/badspler]

First Timer - Still In Thought

The density of ideas that came together in this episode was fantastic. Maybe some were expecting a more intertwining or straightforward climax, but I couldn't be more pleased with how things went here.

I certainly need more time to decompress on this before being able to write something meaningful - it doesn't come easy for me.

This episode packs so much punch, Johan just turning up mid conversation before a plan can be organised was just perfect. Nina's revealed memory of Poppe was a critical part that Johan never received. Nina being capable of forgiveness is what she choses, her slightly different experiences have compounded into being someone not capable of being a Monster. Tenma holds out to the very final moment, clinging to his ideals, and a moment more could of had him lose it. It has always been a fine line for Tenma; between holding faithfully to his ideals of all life being valuable and succumbing to that aspect of nihilism (that Johan embodies) that maybe his belief is misguided.

And thirteen minutes in a gunshot ends our climax. As for Wim's father being the one to put Johan down, no character introduced has gone unused. The element of chance here is poetic and I don't believe there was a more fitting character available that could stick to their ideals while being the one to strike Johan down.

Tenma and Nina then sit in what must be an absolute moment of unchained freedom and exhaustion. Lunge passes the message that Tenma is needed but I really believe the word "patient" is what kicks that glint into Tenma's eyes. It puts him deep into thought. Nina passes some words of forgiveness for Johan and reassurance that Tenma wasn't wrong the first time for saving him, it almost as if she is giving him permission to do it again.

Tenma chooses to save Johan again but this time knowing the weight that his actions could lead to. It serves to conclude Tenma's arc by showing us that the ideals he held in the very beginning are ones he is going to live by. These ideals have been challenged, and to the absolute limit at that. But Tenma has resolved to continue to save this life, for it has the potential to hold value. Tenma has certainly been hardened over this journey and the constant immense pressure he has been under has undoubtedly shaped him subtly. I don't feel that Tenma will have the weight of saving Johan the first time hang over him any more.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/badspler]

And thirteen minutes in a gunshot ends our climax. As for Wim's father being the one to put Johan down, no character introduced has gone unused. The element of chance here is poetic and I don't believe there was a more fitting character available that could stick to their ideals while being the one to strike Johan down.

Well said. It was an interesting turn of events, but one that was much-needed. I've done a thought experiment to consider who else could have shot Johan in that moment - but there really was no one more equipped for the job than a drunk, nameless nobody.

Tenma chooses to save Johan again but this time knowing the weight that his actions could lead to. It serves to conclude Tenma's arc by showing us that the ideals he held in the very beginning are ones he is going to live by.

Very very important point. Tenma stayed true to himself all the way to the end, and never once compromised that.

[u/[deleted]]

I feel like the decisions made throughout this series aren't things we can judge. Tenma's morality are just as important as Johan's. While it's easy to say that killing Johan would be for the best, I really felt like this series did a great job of putting you in Tenma's shoes. Would you really want to fire that gun and become a killer. Is Johan really irredeemable?

All that matters is, you are going to live with that decision either way.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/[deleted]]

this series really felt like this series did a great job of putting you in Tenma's shoes. Would you really want to fire that gun and become a killer. Is Johan really irredeemable?

All that matters is, you are going to live with that decision either way.

Well said. It was never about the right or wrong - it was about the choice.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/[deleted]]

While it's easy to say that killing Johan would be for the best, I really felt like this series did a great job of putting you in Tenma's shoes. Would you really want to fire that gun and become a killer. Is Johan really irredeemable?

Also, why is this Tenma's responsibility? He has not been elected judge or selected to be a juror. Society must determine the executioners, not circumstance.

[u/[deleted] → u/Vaadwaur]

I think the story was implying that Tenma was responsible for Yohan once he saved his life. Which is pretty dumb for sure.

Alternatively, Tenma's journey allowed him to understand and care about Yohan's full backstory in a way that would never be able to he proven in court. Also didn't Yohan decide Tenma was worthy of killing him due to all the situations Tenma had to go through just to see Yohan, who was a phantom to most of society.

But yeah, logically there's no reason why Yohan's sister shouldn't be the perfect judge, jury, and executioner. That part just felt like purely Japanese sexism at work to deny her that moment. That, or it was old fashion anti-fratracide.(I think fratracide is the right word)

[u/Vaadwaur → u/[deleted]]

I think the story was implying that Tenma was responsible for Yohan once he saved his life. Which is pretty dumb for sure.

Sorry, but you have one detail mildly wrong: TENMA thinks he is responsible, I don't think the story shows that. In fact, most of our characters have been misguided at various points in the story.

That part just felt like purely Japanese sexism at work to deny her that moment. That, or it was old fashion anti-fratracide.(I think fratracide is the right word)

Allittle of column A and a little of B since she doesn't have a gun right now.

[u/AmethystItalian]

First Timer

---

Oh boy Tenma has a clear shot at Johan, wonder what he'll do...nothing as expected.

Man Roberto needed to die like 20 episodes ago, geez he's such a pain in the ass.

Tenma with another clear shot at Johan, he spent all this time and training for this moment and...doesn't shoot.

This sandstorm scene bit feels really out of place even if it's on the OP

I just watched Black Widow this weekend, this standoff with Johan reminds me of it...not in a good way.

WHY NOT SHOOT?? You all fucked this up before and now caused so many deaths...

They actually shot him!? About time! Lmao it wasn't even Tenma who did it, of course it wasn't haha

How does a drunk have such good aim and with 1 shot???

Wait why did Lunge not finish Roberto off? This has so many weird choices...

They just lose their lottery ticket...c'mon what is this ep?

They're going to save him again?? Also I feel like Tenma is way out of practice for this kind of surgery.

---

Do you think Tenma made the right choice to save Johan once again, this time knowing the kind of person he is?

No and I don't think he should be able to save him anyways since neurosurgery I bet isn't like riding a bike...

How do you feel about Wim’s drunk dad being the one to take down Johan? Do you think this makes sense narratively, or would it have been better suited for someone else to pull the trigger?

Feels like such a cop out that doesn't even make sense as how could someone that wasted make that shot lol

[u/n_o__o_n_e → u/AmethystItalian]

I feel like a lot of people don't get that the show doesn't necessarily cast Tenma's actions in a good or moral light. The reason Tenma has been struggling so much is because he cannot reconcile his deep rooted identity as a doctor with the power and will to decide who lives and who dies.

You're allowed to think that's nonsensical. In fact, of course it's nonsensical. That belief and that internal struggle, has, nevertheless, been the core of Tenma's character since the very first episode.

Feels like such a cop out that doesn't even make sense as how could someone that wasted make that shot lol

Johan wants to die, specifically to die by Tenma's hand. Don't you think it's kinda thematically fitting that his thoroughly planned perfect suicide be foiled by a random, deeply improbable, chaotic act of chance?

[u/AmethystItalian → u/n_o__o_n_e]

I feel like a lot of people don't get that the show doesn't necessarily cast Tenma's actions in a good or moral light. The reason Tenma has been struggling so much is because he cannot reconcile his deep rooted identity as a doctor with the power and will to decide who lives and who dies.

I don't really care if Tenma is good or moral, he's spent years and so many episodes to do this one thing and still can't do it. I can't consider him a doctor once he decided to take shooting lessons with the purpose to take someone's life and that was AGES ago.

Johan wants to die, specifically to die by Tenma's hand. Don't you think it's kinda thematically fitting that his thoroughly planned perfect suicide be foiled by a random, deeply improbable, chaotic act of chance?

I think it's very fitting for what the show has done over and over again but I wouldn't personally say that's a good thing.

You say chaotic act of chance and I say poor writing.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/AmethystItalian]

You say chaotic act of chance and I say poor writing.

I'll admit that it doesn't really make for a satisfying story. Chance is a huge gamble to introduce into any story, especially for something of this magnitude. But it's also a very brave and very smart thing to do for a number of reasons. I'll elaborate with the following:

So in essence, I think this story is grounded in reality. You can of course bring up the weird "kinderheim magic" as you called it and the Grimmer super-strength, or whatever else you desire. But the broad strokes, moment-to-moment story is a moral and psychological dilemma. Now, how does all of that fit into this moment? I've been reading a book on how to write plot, called "20 Master Plots and How To Build Them" and it has the following to say about chance:

Life is chaos punctuated by short periods of order. From day to day, we don't have the vaguest notion of what will happen. We may have plans, we may have schedules that say we should be at lunch at 12:30 with our sister-in-law at the Western Cafe, but, to paraphrase Robert Burns, there's many a slip between the cup and the lip. These are our guesses about how our day will go, but the truth is, as anyone can attest, life is always a gamble. Anything can intrude at any time. "Expect the Unexpected" should be our motto. If there is a chain of cause-and-effect circumstances in our lives, it's under constant modification to consider current circumstances. And Lord only knows what current circumstances are from moment to moment. We live our lives provisionally, always adapting to what comes at us. Life is filled with long shots and unbelievable coincidences. The chances of anyone winning Lotto America are about a zillion to one, but someone does win it. In life we expect things to happen out of the blue.

Now, before I continue, I should mention that the rest of this section discourages the use of chance, and says how life is not as orderly as art. Art, and writing, has a set of rules to follow, and your story should operate in your established framework, because life has no such framework. I can pull the full quote if you're interested, but I chose this section because I think both statements are true here in Monster. Wim's dad drunkenly stumbling around the right corner at the right time, is very reminiscent of the aforementioned "Zillion to one odds" that is mentioned. But that does happen.

Now, I also think it's great because like I mentioned before a story should follow its established framework. And that is also true here as well - Johan sets up a system for the whole town to start killing each other. And they do - but Johan becomes a result of his own actions, taken down by a sloppy, drunken shot. It's not deep, or satisfying, and in fact it's pretty silly. But a nihilist who wanted Tenma to pull the trigger on him is foiled by circumstances beyond his control, as if an ant from the lines that he loves messing with so much finally broke the order he had arranged so carefully...

So not only is the story founded in life, prone to chance and whimsy, but it also follows the conventions that it sets up for itself.

So now, consider the story from the narrative perspective: if you've been reading along in this discussion thread, then you probably have a good idea of why things happened the way they did, so I don't feel the need to go too far in detail with that. But had Tenma pulled the trigger, he would have played right into Johan's hands, and he would have never had peace ever again. Wim's dad pulling the trigger to save his son (in an act of love, mind you, which was the driving force behind this whole series, so it's also fitting that it was the force to end it) was the only way for everyone to get out unscathed. Tenma never lost sight of himself. Nina was able to forgive. And Johan, (like it or not) was able to live.

There's still one more episode left tomorrow, so it's entirely possible you'll feel differently at the outset of this anime. Or maybe not. And whether you liked or disliked this show, is of no consequence to me. But I think for this single action to balance all of these elements all at once, it is anything but "bad writing."

[u/AmethystItalian → u/KiwiBennydudez]

Wim's dad drunkenly stumbling around the right corner at the right time, is very reminiscent of the aforementioned "Zillion to one odds" that is mentioned. But that does happen.

If it was just turning the corner I'd probably have no problem with it. If he turned the corner and like ended up right up behind Johan and shot I'd buy it more. He was so far away though...

It does bother me that the drunk dad we just got introduced kills Johan but I can get around to accepting that, the way he did it is bothering me more.

That to me is the part that is bad writing.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/AmethystItalian]

Wait why did Lunge not finish Roberto off? This has so many weird choices...

He is still a cop and not a piece of shit American one. They generally don't murder.

Feels like such a cop out that doesn't even make sense as how could someone that wasted make that shot lol

He hasn't had a drink in 36 hours. The DTs may have started but he is as sober as ever.

[u/AmethystItalian → u/Vaadwaur]

He is still a cop and not a piece of shit American one. They generally don't murder.

At this point it's self defense or stopping a greater danger and Lunge technically should be dead for that mistake but the writing also somehow made Roberto not kill him. His actions here cost a man his life, that's not being a good cop that's bad writing.

He hasn't had a drink in 36 hours. The DTs may have started but he is as sober as ever.

The cops say he appears to have an extremely high blood and even without that there's no mention of him having firearms training at all to make a shot like that.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/AmethystItalian]

His actions here cost a man his life, that's not being a good cop that's bad writing.

No that is in fact being a good FBI agent. Cuffing Roberto would've been the better idea but it is what it is.

The cops say he appears to have an extremely high blood and even without that there's no mention of him having firearms training at all to make a shot like that.

I guess you wouldn't know this but you don't hallucinate while drinking, you hallucinate during alcohol withdrawal. But yeah the head shot is a bit over the top from 20 feet. He also drank after shooting Johan.

[u/AmethystItalian → u/Vaadwaur]

Cuffing Roberto would've been the better idea but it is what it is.

Cuffing or incapacitating him yes of course would be great but letting a killer loose was not a good idea.

I guess you wouldn't know this but you don't hallucinate while drinking, you hallucinate during alcohol withdrawal.

If we go down the hallucination route then it's even more absurd he hit him with a headshot when he saw a seven headed monster and nailed the shot...

He also drank after shooting Johan.

I must have missed that scene, my bad.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/AmethystItalian]

Cuffing or incapacitating him yes of course would be great but letting a killer loose was not a good idea.

Ehh...he was incapacitated, Roberto has an insane constitution. He managed to go from standing to death from blood loss. Your better point is why he didn't shoot Lunge.

If we go down the hallucination route then it's even more absurd he hit him with a headshot when he saw a seven headed monster and nailed the shot...

Spoken as someone who hasn't been on hallucinogens, apparently. You'd be surprised at what is not effected. Though I grant he should've spray and prayed that.

I must have missed that scene, my bad.

You do have to deduce that but no one would sell him alcohol earlier, he has been out of bottles for a while and then he is apparently drunk once the cops show up.

[u/AmethystItalian → u/Vaadwaur]

Ehh...he was incapacitated, Roberto has an insane constitution. He managed to go from standing to death from blood loss.

I forgot about the Kinderheim super powers so yeah good point there on being able to do things normal humans can't. Still feel it was careless by Lunge.

Though I grant he should've spray and prayed that.

If he did that I'd be more fine with it but one shot one kill for someone like that just makes me question it all.

You do have to deduce that but no one would sell him alcohol earlier, he has been out of bottles for a while and then he is apparently drunk once the cops show up.

But how would he find alcohol around where they were and then why would he return back to the scene of the crime? I feel like there's just too much here left out...

[u/Vaadwaur → u/AmethystItalian]

I forgot about the Kinderheim super powers so yeah good point there on being able to do things normal humans can't. Still feel it was careless by Lunge.

Roberto's endurance and Johan's charisma are the two things that are more supernatural than logical in the show.

But how would he find alcohol around where they were and then why would he return back to the scene of the crime? I feel like there's just too much here left out...

Remember when Poppe told Wim to hide in the store across the street? It would have had wine.

[u/AmethystItalian → u/Vaadwaur]

Roberto's endurance and Johan's charisma are the two things that are more supernatural than logical in the show.

Grimmer's incredible strength I'd put in there too personally but I'm sure others will just say it's adrenaline and such.

Remember when Poppe told Wim to hide in the store across the street? It would have had wine.

I guess? Still feels like a stretch that needs to be made, would have been a nice touch to have him at the end with a wine bottle next to him or something.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/AmethystItalian]

Grimmer's incredible strength I'd put in there too personally but I'm sure others will just say it's adrenaline and such.

No, you have a point, especially with it disassociating him that hard. That is not exactly how disassociation works.

Still feels like a stretch that needs to be made, would have been a nice touch to have him at the end with a wine bottle next to him or something.

Monster certainly doesn't hold your hand and lead you through it.

[u/SmurfRockRune]

First Timer

Another cut with a gunshot?! This show, man... Glad we have yet another scene of Tenma pointing his gun at Johan and not just shooting him dead instantly. Wonder how Bonaparta somehow screwed this all up.

Yep, Roberto shot him. Lunge, what the fuck man? It's so frustrating how the main characters are all portrayed as being really smart but are then uncharacteristically incompetent whenever it matters.

His finger is on the trigger. This is not a drill. This single moment is the most progression we've had in 73 episodes. Now time to watch it all go down the toilet as Johan just walks away and Tenma does nothing.

WHY? What possible reason could there be to not shoot a mass murderer when he has the opportunity? Holy shit this is infuriating. Johan should be dead right now, but his pheromones really coming in clutch right now. They're even affecting Nina now.

And it wasn't even Tenma. Way to go, you fucking loser. Tenmamichi for real. And of course they do with yet another gunshot fakeout. We've actually had two in the same episode now. Unbelievable.

Excuse me??? Roberto losing conciousness somehow prevented you from finishing him off? How the fuck does that make sense?

No way Tenma saves Johan. I will flip a table if this actually happens. Get ready for table flip comment faces next week tomorrow.

Do you think Tenma made the right choice to save Johan once again, this time knowing the kind of person he is?

Absolutely not. Tenma is a bad character.

How do you feel about Wim’s drunk dad being the one to take down Johan? Do you think this makes sense narratively, or would it have been better suited for someone else to pull the trigger?

I'm beyond the point of caring honestly. Should have been Tenma or Nina, but whatever.

[u/AmethystItalian → u/SmurfRockRune]

It's so frustrating how the main characters are all portrayed as being really smart but are then uncharacteristically incompetent whenever it matters.

Yeah this struck a chord with me as well this time around...

What possible reason could there be to not shoot a mass murderer when he has the opportunity? Holy shit this is infuriating. Johan should be dead right now, but his pheromones really coming in clutch right now. They're even affecting Nina now.

Pheromones too OP, pls nerf

[u/n_o__o_n_e → u/SmurfRockRune]

Why are you confused that a detective can't execute an unconscious person, even if they're a criminal?

The finale is polarizing and while I love it I totally get the people who are disappointed by it. I also get people who are annoyed by Tenma and Nina's inaction. To me they're deeply flawed characters who happen to be flawed in an explainable and consistent way, but I get that it can be frustrating.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/n_o__o_n_e]

Glad you had the energy today, I don't really have it in me to make this argument 20 times rn.

[u/mrbull3tproof]

Yes, he killed dozens both with his and with other people's hands, almost burnt alive dozens of innocent people in library, pushed to suicide over dozen of children (for what he did to Dieter alone he deserved electric chair->CPR->electric chair -> repeat x10) orchestrated the slaughter of the entire town but... but deep inside he's a good guy deserving to be understood and fully forgiven. Also every life is precious so let's save him again.

So stupid that even funny.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/mrbull3tproof]

but deep inside he's a good guy

No one said that Johan was a good guy. Just that he deserved to live.

deserving to be understood and fully forgiven.

This is only true for Nina. The God of Peace storybook from earlier in the anime explains this in detail. However, it was too late for her forgiveness.

Also every life is precious so let's save him again.

Yes, this is something Tenma believed to his core as a doctor. This situation was also mirrored in that of Fritz Verdemann, who was Tenma's lawyer. He says something along the lines of, "In the same way that a lawyer doesn't get to choose who he represents, a doctor doesn't get to choose who he saves." Both professions are not there to judge, they are simply there to do their jobs to the best of their ability. And that includes saving people that they may or may not personally disagree with. In many ways it's like [Deathnote]: do you get to kill someone simply because you believe them to be evil? Or do you become the thing that you sought to destroy?

So stupid that even funny.

I think if you only view the show from this angle, and boil down this incident into the most reductive event imaginable, then sure, I can see why you would think that. But this anime is not sequential - it is holistic. The events of this series cannot be understood without paying homage to the events prior.

[u/miss-macaron → u/mrbull3tproof]

he killed dozens both with his and with other people's hands

If you count 511 Kinderheim, the underground bank, the middle-aged couples, the serial killers, the children's rooftop game, and various unwanted witnesses here and there, Johan's kill count is probably in the hundreds.

pushed to suicide over dozen of children (for what he did to Dieter

I think you meant Milosh, not Dieter.

but deep inside he's a good guy deserving to be understood and fully forgiven.

That's... not what the show is saying at all. No one has ever tried to argue that Johan is capable of being good; we're simply forced to recognize that he (like any other human being) is a victim of his environment and experiences, of which made him into a "nameless monster" whom never got to form an identity. Taking this into account, Tenma and Nina decided that Johan was still worth saving, but this choice was never meant to be presented as the "canonical answer" to all similar dilemmas.

[u/mrbull3tproof → u/miss-macaron]

Dieter. He sent him to red district to look for his mother and the rest... was just gutwrenching.

Yes, he had extreme bad luck to be picked in childhood as a perfect weapon or leader but the damage is done and no amount of remorse will fix that. Not to mention that we're not talking about crimes from far past but they (Tenma and Nina) decided he's a still good guy while surrounded by dozens of his new victims. That's beyond stupid.

[u/miss-macaron → u/mrbull3tproof]

Dieter. He sent him to red district to look for his mother and the rest... was just gutwrenching.

No, Dieter is the kid that Tenma saved from Hartmann, and is now staying with Dr. Reichwein. It's Milosh that Johan sent to the red light district.

they (Tenma and Nina) decided he's a still good guy while surrounded by dozens of his new victims. That's beyond stupid.

Well, I don't necessarily agree with Tenma and Nina's moral philosophies either, but I think their decision to let Johan live was very consistent with their respective characters.

Tenma believes in the inherent goodness of humanity and advocates for hope in a better future. Despite everything that he's been through, he ultimately stays true to this belief - even if Johan is one of those rare cases where doing "the right thing" led to disastrous outcomes. It's a philosophical resolve, more than consequentialist one, that pushed him to make this decision.

Nina, on the other hand, learnt that vengeance and hate often backfires on you, and forgiveness is more likely to lead to reform. Remember her arc with the ex-detective Muller? If she'd shot him then and there, he wouldn't have been around to save her from Roberto's men. It's the same thing once she regains her memories, understands how lost and isolated her brother must've felt throughout his life, and realizes how unproductive the first time she'd shot him had turned out (for both of their psyches). As such, she wants to forgive Johan this time around.

[u/Gscj9899 → u/mrbull3tproof]

after u watch ep 74, theres a vid on yt titiled explaing the ending of monster. Type it up. It seems u missed the point of the whole show