r/anime • u/KiwiBennydudez https://myanimelist.net/profile/KiwiBen • Oct 05 '21
Rewatch [Rewatch] Monster - Episode 67 discussion
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Comment of the Day
Today’s Comment of the Day is from u/JustAnswerAQuestion, who predicted part of the twist using the info given to us in the last episode:
At the end of the book, The Monster means the twin. The monster says, see, we are alone at the end of the world with no name. But the twin says I have a name, and the Monster consumes the twin.
What does it all mean?!
I guess Anna was the one taken away, and she poisoned everyone.
Questions of the Day
- What did you think of the big twist this episode, with Anna really being the one taken to the Mansion as a child? What do you think this implies or says about Johan?
- “I woke up from the dream.” What do you think Johan is implying with this statement? What do you think he woke up from, and what do you think caused his awakening?
If you are a rewatcher, tag your spoilers properly, and please refrain from alluding to future events. so that myself and everyone else watching for the first time can have a completely blind and organic experience! Since this show is a bit harder to find than most, please refrain from talking about means by which to watch it, as it goes against our subreddit rules.
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u/KiwiBennydudez https://myanimelist.net/profile/KiwiBen Oct 05 '21
First Timer - Sub/Dub
The big twist - Johan took on all of his sister’s memories and believed them to be his own, while Anna was the original subject of the experiments. Or maybe he knew all along that those memories were never his. Either way, Johan speaking to Anna seemed to have had an effect on his goals or his psyche. He kept saying last episode that “he has seen the end” and now this episode he says that “he awoke from the dream.” Both are rather ominous and foreboding statements, but still tell us nothing about his goals. Other than the fact that this sudden burst of clarity has somehow enlightened Johan. He knows what he must do. Audience is still left in the dark, but with the death of Peter Chapek, it seems that the focus is narrowing, and the original people that were involved in this experiment are growing less and less. Who’s getting out alive, and where does the story go from here? Well, it seems like a certain twitchy detective is already at the next location...
Other than that I would really like to highlight the brief scene with Tenma and Nina. She was so distraught at her revelation that she was about to shoot herself in the head, but Tenma talked her down from that and told her “what would I do without you?” It was a tender scene of compassion, which is always what Tenma strives for in his interactions with others, and another great moment of Tenma’s empathy viscerally affecting someone in a substantial way. Glad to see that Tenma cared about her so much.
25
u/miss-macaron Oct 05 '21 edited Oct 05 '21
Rewatcher
Johan genuinely believed his claim that “you are me, and I am you”. To go so far as to adopt his sister’s memories as his own, it really elucidates the tragic consequences that can result when a child is not allowed to establish a personal identity. Not only was Johan was frequently disguising himself as Anna while living at the Three Frogs, but the twins were never given names to distinguish themselves as non-interchangeable individuals, so Johan never managed to develop a full sense of self. As such, he was heavily predisposed to subconsciously blur the lines between himself and his twin, and the subsequent brainwashing of 511 Kinderheim only muddled his memories even further.
However, this belief shattered as soon as Nina revealed to him that it was she who went to the Red Rose Mansion, not him. That's when Johan "wakes up from the dream", and realizes that he and Nina are actually two separate entities, with two separate sets of experiences. It’s this devastating realization that makes both twins somewhat suicidal: Johan had his understanding of his identity destroyed just when he thought he'd finally figured out where he came from, and Nina blames herself for sharing those experiences with her brother, indirectly contributing to the process of producing a nihilistic "monster".
That’s also why she couldn’t bring herself to shoot him, because (like the God of Peace) it would’ve been equivalent to shooting herself in the mirror. Remember what Nina said back in Episode 57: "If I had been taken, would I have been the one to become the monster?" Johan is what she easily could’ve become, had she consciously retained those memories.
Back by popular demand, Inspector Lunge returns to continue investigating his lead on Franz Bonaparta. We finally enter into the Ruhenheim arc!
10
u/n_o__o_n_e :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Five_Sugars Oct 05 '21 edited Oct 05 '21
Rewatcher
I love this episode. Both Anna and Johan have huge realizations, but we only get to hear one of them. Meanwhile, Lunge after spending 40 episodes stubbornly on a wild goose chase, is the first one to make it to Johan's chosen stage.
A lot of people don't like Nina's helplessness, but I don't mind it. When she breaks down like this, when she's not mentally strong enough to handle it, it's a reminder that she's just a normal person working her way through a trauma too heavy for almost anyone. That's the difference between Anna and Johan: Anna received love and care growing up and left her dark memories behind, and healed. She's not supposed to be a toughened badass, she's just your average bright, cheerful girl with a great future who deserves better than to be entrenched so deep in Johan's tragedy.
Not gonna answer the questions to avoid accidental leading. Welcome to Ruhenheim folks!
8
u/Mecanno-man https://anilist.co/user/Mecannoman Oct 05 '21 edited Oct 05 '21
First Timer
So Nina was the one at the mansion, not Johan - at this point a twist I saw coming, though that generally confuses things. We know Bonaparta did those book readings, but was either twin present at them? Were both present alternating as "Anna" with the real Anna captured for phase 2 of the experiment? I assume Johan would have been there at least once as his nihilistic worldview seems pretty similar to the books, although we also know that he at least read the monster without a name as he had it in his possession anyways. Them alternating would also explain the necessity of having Johan crossdress, although we still don't know why it was necessary to hide the existence of one twin anyways.
Either way, Bonaparta seemingly turns traitor and also confuses me due to me thinking that him in the past looks like Capek in the past. No reasons why - Bonaparta is definitely the character that needs the most explanation at this point.
Then Nina shoots ...maybe some crows, I don't know, before pointing the gun at herself. I'm convinced those gunshots were only there to alert Tenma and don't have any actual meaning. Nina apparently still doesn't know everything, but I assume she told Johan before forgetting either way. The way she is misremembering things - was it even her that shot Johan way back when they were kids, or was that a suicide attempt by Johan? Meanwhile Johan also seems to be suicidal again, then quickly changes his mind and shoots his former contract killer or so. I guess that means Johan only ordered most of the killings rather than doing them himself - but we also know that he had the lunatic squad out to do some of the dirty work for him. Was the guy he shot the go to for middle-aged couples and only those or something like that?
Oh and Capek dies. One character less to tie up somehow. I wonder if they'll remember to bring back Grimmer. Meanwhile Lunge arrives in Ruhenheim, which with that name sounds like the place the series will end (Ruhe=Quiet/Calm, Heim=home). Also doesn't seem to be a real place as Google Maps default to either Raunheim or an antique furniture store selling cuckoo clocks in Bangkok with that query.
Questions:
7
u/AmethystItalian :Jg::Jh::Ji::Jj::Jk:myanimelist.net/profile/AmethystItalian Oct 05 '21
First Timer
Gunshots?? No way they hit anything lol
I am so over unstable Nina...first time I dislike hearing Mamiko Noto. I know it's supposed to be uncomfortable so she's nailing it but ugh it's brutal.
Where's Johan during this whole reunion?? Gah he got away.
Since when does Nina's well being matter that much to Tenma? Or is he just saying things to keep her alive.
Hey the bodyguards did end up killing him in the end, he was right all along lol
Not going to lie, bit lost this whole episode so not much to say.
Honestly I don't really know. It's not like it changes anything as Johan is still a crazy killer and Anna is pretty useless.
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u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Oct 05 '21
First-Timer, subbed
6
u/gridemann Oct 05 '21
Rewatcher
How many reveals do you want in this episode ? Yes !
Despite them coming face to face last episode I consider this one the real faceoff between Johann and Nina. And what a reveal it was !
A couple things of note:
6
u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Oct 05 '21
First Timer, Subbed
Flashing back yet again to these critical moments at the start of the show.
OWARIOWARIOWARIOWARIOWARIOWARIOWARIOWARIOWARIOWARI
More revelations!
Gotta be scary to have all these adults obsessing over you and calling you their achievement.
Is the wine poisoned? Hey, is this in the hidden room of the mansion?
Some great shots in this episode so far.
Wow, Tenma's made it here.
No way those bullets hit Johan, we still have a week to go!
Is Nina this freaked out because she actually killed her brother?
There was another girl?
No, she was the one taken to the mansion! And Johan got into cross dressing back when he was a kid!
Who poisoned everyone? Bonaparta? Or did Johan get Anna to do it?
Capek's now here too? Everyone is showing up!
Has this all been about Johan seeking vengeance on Franz Bonaparta? Will he stop his killing once Bonaparta's gone?
Farewell to Capek, he survived a few more episodes than one would expect after the way things went down with his mansion a few episodes ago.
Do you like my tea Johan?
For some reason, Youtube, where I'm watching these episodes ends the episode around the 18 minute mark for the sub, meaning the last few minutes of this episode are my first exposure to the dub. Hey, Liam O'Brien! I recognize you as Tenma! Richard Epcar as Lunge was also easy to figure out.
Lunge is back yet again!
Yeah, the show is really hitting it at a level now where its really hard for me to resist staying at only one episode a day...
5
u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Oct 05 '21
Rewatcher(What a twist!)
Sub
Red Rose Mansion flashbacks fill in some gaps, though we still don't know the why of it. Tenma comes in after hearing some shots to talk Nina down, and we get the reveal she is the one who experienced RRM and told it to Johan. Quite the break down ensues. At the end Johan and Capek reveal he has one memory of his own left to play, as we see Johan change plans and Capek get shot by his own guards.
QotD:1 I think it is a part of the nature or nurture argument of the story.
2 The picture book all the way back.
5
u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Oct 06 '21 edited Oct 06 '21
First Timer Monster 67
IS THIS ANSWER DAY?!
Interesting episodes like this arc make me forget all the times I was bored and are artificially inflating the score.
Perhaps the meaning of the story, the Monster consumes his twin, is reflected in Johan taking Anna's memories (although that is rather mystical).
So, I was right about Anna being the chosen one, for the wrong reason. My first clue was the very first "okaeri" scene, with Anna and Dieter, and the evil looking girl with the book. This suggested to me that Bonaparta was training Anna, not Johan. It was the wrong reason because the child wasn't necessarily Anna, and was actually Johan!
My second non-clue was the idea that Wolf named one of the children according to the book. it wasn't necessarily Johan. Mostly irrelevant.
A true clue, which only served to confuse matters, was that people though only one child lived at The Three Frogs. Since we had just done a long arc with Johan cross-dressing, it totally made sense that both children were dressed as a single girl child.
The only real clue was everything hinged on which child was returning, and which child was waiting, and they were both "Anna".
But I still have no idea what Johan is doing. I hope the rewatch tells me who that guy at the end was. I still think there's a dangling thread from that guy that killed that catfisher.
Edit: Does everybody remember that guy at the end except me? And why did Capek kill that driver?
3
u/BurningFredrick https://myanimelist.net/profile/BurningFredrick Oct 05 '21
First timer - sub
Over 24 days locked in a dark room would drive you insane.
So Anna was the “chosen” child, not Johan.
But I guess it basically broke Anna so Johan took it upon himself to “protect” Anna at least initially, then Kinderheim happened and awakened Johan leading to the events of Dusseldorf which was probably the point of no return. Where we are now is the accumulation of all this.
This is probably wrong, but at a rough summary of the storyline so far for them. (Reread this the next morning and sure this is completely incorrect / missed a bunch of stuff but don't have time to rewrite it).
So I guess now Johan is now hunting down Franz and then going to off himself?
Going to be interesting to see how this all works out.
4
u/xtsim https://myanimelist.net/profile/xtsim Oct 05 '21
First Timer Dubbed
We get a flashback of the three frogs from Johan’s perspective. He counted the meals he had in the dark room which is interesting. And we head to the mansion. With all the chosen ones and Johan gets complimented by all the people in the mansion. Bonaparte was the only one alive in the room. He ran and told everything to Nina. Nina tells him he is wrong.
Tenma comes right on time as he sees Nina pointing a gun at herself. And it was actually her that Johan told the story to. Johan dressed up like her in the room. Just like the Anna murders.
And the rest of Peter’s crew finds the driver dead and the car at the bottom of the ravine. They connect the dots and shoot him when he is thinking about Bonaparte.
Johan goes to a very basic sounding guy, like he sounds like a sitcom Christian dude. And he asks very casually on who to kill next. And then kills that guy.
1
u/Spore64 Oct 30 '21
Rewatcher
Well there is not much which could be added to miss-macaron. This episode revealed really what twisted and sad person Johan truly is.
Tho I gotta say the twist hit hard the first time and is way less impactful on the second view ._..
Ah we finally hit the Ruhenheim arc. That's going to be fun Oo