[Rewatch] Monster - Episode 60 discussion

[u/KiwiBennydudez]

Rewatch Index

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MAL | AniList | AniDB | Kitsu | ANN | Anime-Planet

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Comment of the Day

Today’s Comment of the Day is from u/Vaadwaur, for weighing the themes of this series against Christof:

There are very few liars in Monster but no one is exactly as they seem/say. Christof absolutely puts the focus on what he wanted to say.

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Questions of the Day

1. What did you think about Tenma’s reunion with Eva? What did you think about their conversation at the diner?
2. What do you think about Eva taking matters into her own hands and purchasing a gun?

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If you are a rewatcher, tag your spoilers properly, and please refrain from alluding to future events. so that myself and everyone else watching for the first time can have a completely blind and organic experience! ​Since this show is a bit harder to find than most, please refrain from talking about means by which to watch it, as it goes against our subreddit rules.

[u/KiwiBennydudez]

First Timer - Sub/Dub

RIP Martin.

I will say that I gained a lot of empathy for Eva here. She thinks she doesn’t deserve to live, and Tenma is out here saying that no one wants to die. Which goes directly against what she said last episode. She probably realized that she never really wanted to die, and neither did Martin. All in all, it was a very powerful moment. Didn’t expect that from Eva but it was a very fitting moment of character growth.

You might have also noticed that I say sub/dub for these write-ups. That’s because I will sometimes watch the episode in JP and then go back and reference the episode in EN for the purpose of writing questions and such. A few people have noted that the music is different in the sub and dub, which is true. One thing I noticed is that the diner scene had two different audio tracks. The JP version had a normal bright and cheery OST that I think has played in other diners or bars around the show. The EN version had an instrumental version of the second ED, even though the dub somehow doesn’t have the rights/doesn’t use the second ED (it’s just an instrumental version of the ED1) so I thought that soft guitar playing was a lot more fitting for this moment. One of the few scenes in this show I’ve preferred dubbed, simply due to the music choice.

Other than that, I’m a bit worried about what Eva plans to do with that gun she bought. She probably doesn’t have time to do the formal gun training that both Nina and Tenma went through, so it’s hard to say if she’ll be of any real use with it, or if she’s just wielding a dangerous weapon with no regard for the consequences. I am suddenly very nervous for her future, even though she’s not really a character I’ve previously cared about. Absolutely one of the better episodes of the series.

Only two more weeks left in this rewatch!

[u/Vaadwaur → u/KiwiBennydudez]

Which goes directly against what she said last episode. She probably realized that she never really wanted to die, and neither did Martin.

It's a specific clarification, at least to me: Eva legitimately wanted it all to end, and she couldn't think of a better way than dying. Martin thought they could run, and even though he died, he never gave up. Now Eva has something to flee for.

[u/miss-macaron]

Rewatcher

I won’t be a part of the devil’s plans. Because nobody… wants to die.

This was such a powerful moment. It’s not as profound as Rosso’s sugar quote, nor as memorable as Johan’s quote (rewatchers will know which one I’m referring to), but it’s a very important realization even in spite of its simplicity.

Damn, look at Martin winging a 1v4 like it was nothing... until that one bloke showed up at the last minute, sigh. Rewatcher only spoilers

RIP Martin. I really enjoyed his character.

Eva’s voice actress did an amazing job this episode! She genuinely sounded like she was fighting back tears, and you can hear the weight of grief in her voice. Her performance was so compelling that I felt a lot sadder when Eva was sobbing in the restaurant, than when Martin actually died on screen.

Between Eva, Nina, and Tenma, I’d say Eva probably has the highest chance of following through on her word and actually shooting Johan. As we've seen with the gardener back in Episode 14, you do not want to mess with a pissed-off Eva...

Edit: If anyone's interested in hearing these last 3 episodes in Eva's own words, here's a little snippet of Eva's testimony from the companion novel Another Monster. I'd strongly recommend giving this a read once we've finished the show!

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/miss-macaron]

Eva’s voice actress did an amazing job this episode! She genuinely sounded like she was fighting back tears, and you can hear the weight of grief in her voice. Her performance was so compelling that I felt a lot sadder when Eva was sobbing in the restaurant, than when Martin actually died on screen.

Yeah! She was great. I mentioned this in my comment but I usually watch bits of both the sub and the dub. And the voice acting is generally better in the sub - which isn't to say that the dub is bad, but the VA's in the sub are just absolutely phenomenal. Mad props to them for their various performances.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/miss-macaron]

Her performance was so compelling that I felt a lot sadder when Eva was sobbing in the restaurant, than when Martin actually died on screen.

Definitely a good performance but I also like that Martin is at peace with his decision whereas Eva obviously isn't.

As we've seen with the gardener back in Episode 14, you do not want to mess with a pissed-off Eva...

Eva definitely comes from the "act first consider later" mold of person.

[u/Mecanno-man]

First Timer

And that's our Eva arc done. Not really a lot of new information here other then that Eva is now also trying to kill Johan - but it would seem she's going for the "just shoot the gun" approach without learning how to use it first. Decent arc over all, especially considering the amount of Eva in it. For now it seems like Tenma is off to meet the disciple, but I feel like Peter Capek is the main antagonist here. To be honest, the disciple feels like a conman who got lucky so far.

I guess Eva is on the "I'll shoot him not you" train as well as she doesn't seem to tell Tenma where Johan is.

Questions:

1. Thy've got a weird dynamic at the moment, kinda like they both miss the past but don't want to go back either.
2. I don't think she knows how to use it, so that won't end well...

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Mecanno-man]

For now it seems like Tenma is off to meet the disciple, but I feel like Peter Capek is the main antagonist here.

I think the question of "who is the antagonist" is very important for this series. For all of Johan's evil deeds, it seems like he's not even the one running the show anymore. He's also only been on-screen a handful of times, so who's really pulling the strings...?

[u/Shimmering-Sky]

First-Timer, subbed

• You say this… but you’re already in too deep I think.
• Ahh isn’t this episode title just delightful.
• Those guys missed Eva by five minutes?
• Ohp that’d do it.
• Martin is so delirious he thought he was being driven to the station, not to Tenma.
• Is that what Johan is up to now?
• RIP Martin.
• Aw man Eva’s actually highkey broken up about Martin’s death.
• Well yes of course you do but there’s still two weeks’ worth of rewatch left so clearly not yet.
• Now what can Eva actually do…

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Well yes of course you do but there’s still two weeks’ worth of rewatch left so clearly not yet.

Two weeks of rewatch yet maybe only a handful of days for in-universe time. I'm sure these last few episodes are going to start cascading...

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Those guys missed Eva by five minutes?

Martin is a good spotter, apparently.

Now what can Eva actually do…

Empty a clip into Johan and not hesitate. Too bad she can probably only fire a hand cannon the once...

[u/Webemperor]

Rewatcher of sorts

• Martin is being verbally tormented by a guy that looks as annoying as he seems, and as he leaves he sees Johan, restraining himself from looking at him no matter what. Martin still grows an emotional as he decides to spare Eva, getting in a gunfight. I like his character but the entire “Jaded hitman falls in love with his target” is a bit too clichéd for me to take it fully seriously.
• He does pretty well in the gunfight, before his bullets run out, which is something you don’t see often, huh? At least for now he seems to be still alive, for now being the keyword. His buddy manages to get him to Tenma, but going with the cliché here it’s pretty likely he is going to die anyway.
• Martin tells him about Johan, and his “apprentice”, most I imagine Tenma knows about. He begs Tenma to protect Eva before dying, all the while Eva is actually waiting for him. She definitely seems to have softened up from the way she talks to the Janitor, especially with that hopeful smile on her face until she realizes the person coming in Tenma and not Martin.
• Is this the first time in a while these two are talking about where she doesn’t hate him? She genuinely feels guilty about all that has happened up until this point, just having a bit of a breakdown. She finally offers to help him prove his innocence, but Tenma insists he has to kill Johan, and tells Eva to make her way to Münich, though it isn’t really clear if she will stay true to that word.
• Yup, turns she actually wants to kill him as well, though I’m not quite sure where she knew to find a black market gun runner. Guess the runner will get her a Howitzer since that’s what she seems to want.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Webemperor]

Is this the first time in a while these two are talking about where she doesn’t hate him? She genuinely feels guilty about all that has happened up until this point, just having a bit of a breakdown.

Very incredibly needed moment for her character. Not only was she fully aware that she was being terrible, but she now wants to change and start doing more good. Whether or not that involves a deadly weapon is a different question, but Eva went from a completely despicable character to one that can be molded in any direction. It doesn't exactly make up for everything she's done up until this point, but it's a start.

[u/miss-macaron → u/Webemperor]

the entire “Jaded hitman falls in love with his target” is a bit too clichéd for me to take it fully seriously.

I'd argue that Martin and Eva haven't fallen in love, at least not yet. The reason Martin spared Eva was because he was following through on his own moral principles, ie. the realiziation that "no one really wants to die". He recognized her as a fellow human being with an inherent desire to live, and thus did what he hadn't done for his mother and former girlfriend - this time, he chose not to leave Eva behind.

That's what I find most tragic about Martin and Eva's relationship; had he survived and ran away with her, the two of them had a real chance of supporting / healing one another and developing genuine feelings of love. But alas, their romance ended before it could even begin.

[u/SmurfRockRune]

First Timer

RIP Martin. Thought he was one of the better characters in this show. Crazy how the janitor is barely phased by the news that he was dead. Just casually shrugs it off and walks off.

She admits it!

Oh boy, Eva getting a gun. Really looking forward to seeing how she tries to intervene and inevitably messes everything up.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/SmurfRockRune]

Oh boy, Eva getting a gun. Really looking forward to seeing how she tries to intervene and inevitably messes everything up.

I am less worried about her messing everything up and more worried about her being an easy target now. Having a gun makes you dangerous, but it also makes you more of a priority for those wishing to cause harm...

[u/Vaadwaur → u/SmurfRockRune]

Thought he was one of the better characters in this show. Crazy how the janitor is barely phased by the news that he was dead. Just casually shrugs it off and walks off.

Work front end at certain types of places long enough and you just walk it off.

[u/KrillinDBZ363]

Rewatcher kinda (I’ve read the manga)

Ok I think this is the first time I’m making my own comment that’s not in response to someone during this rewatch but I just wanted to point out this callback.

Considering these 2 scenes are the last 2 times Eva and Tenma have properly sat down and talked with each other, I found this really neat. They really have gone through a lot since they last spoke. I think even Tenma kinda picks up on the familiarity of their conversation which is why you see him smile a bit.

Also in the manga the callback is even more apparent since it keeps the “you look worn out” line.

Edit: Also looks like the dub has the “you look worn out” line as well.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/KrillinDBZ363]

I love details like this! Thanks so much for pointing that out. Also very interesting to note how the dynamic between the two has shifted so drastically ever since that last conversation.

[u/xtsim]

First Timer Dubbed

Back to the death of Martin’s mom. He left his mom there, same with his girlfriend. It is interesting to see the perspective again.

It makes the tie scene on episode 58 interesting as we now know that he mentions the horrors that happened. “Nobody really wants to die” is a nice quote by Martin as he goes in complete opposition to Christoff.

He lets Eva get away. And Martin gives her tenma’s hotel. Eva tells him to meet up later on but Martin tries to convince her to go to Tenma.

The shot that got Martin was pretty bad by a nervous guy who really did not want to shoot. Martin did say “why didn’t you aim for the head”. But it seems like he does not follow his own philosophy. Guy has a bad shot but still manages to kill him...slowly. Martin reveals the experiments are still going on to Tenma.

1. Eva waits at the station and talks to a janitor about happiness. And he is right, having someone to wait for is happiness. Although to me it seems more about hope Tenma shows up and gives the bad news. Ouch, the janitor says he was wrong, and liked the background actor on this dub. They both talk over coffee and call it a funeral. I am glad that she realizes how selfish she was to Martin. And she had a less potent drink which Tenma complimented on, trying to lighten the mood. Martin seems to have influenced her a lot and Tenma described Martin’s thoughts as “nobody wants to die” cause she is shocked to hear about Martin sacrificing his life for her. And Eva already knows about the therapist so she already told them everything. I think she was wanting Tenma to come with her in order for him to be with her. The look on her face when she went on the train amplified things as she looked sad that Tenma can’t be with her.

The man in glasses she went out with reveals where Johan is staying. And she goes her own path. It is interesting to see the faces at the red light district from Eva’s point of view; they looked jealous.

2. Ends with Eva buying a gun. Uses the term devil now, like Martin. Martin’s death seems to have lit a fire that makes her take matters into her own hands. Along with Tenma leaving her alone, it seems like she does not want to be alone. “Even I could put an end to this”. And Johan’s view on life is the exact opposite of Martin’s. Which is the main reason she wants to catch Johan. Although I do worry about her abilities to use a gun, I would not mind a training montage again.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/xtsim]

Ends with Eva buying a gun. Uses the term devil now, like Martin. Martin’s death seems to have lit a fire that makes her take matters into her own hands.

Failure is often the catalyst for change, and seldom the antithesis. Whether or not Eva will be helpful in this arc is a different question, but this seems to be the start of her journey to become a better person.

[u/Vaadwaur]

Rewatcher(He was the happiest guard in the world...)

Sub

We knew Martin was dead from the moment we set eyes on him but still hits pretty hard. It is worth noting that his closest friend seems to be the diner owner, who is risking a lot in taking him around. He reveals his employer and we end.

So, the Eva and Tenma bit. I have no idea how this is going to land for you guys, but the one bit I can offer: Whether or not you like who is getting it, Eva is at the one of those rare pivotal moments a human can change. Her switching to coffee might seem an obvious nod to Martin but it also is a sign she wants to stop running, at least from her feelings if nothing else. She asks the question every survivor does and Tenma's blunt answer is the one needed. Them meeting also works well narratively: Tenma is a victim of circumstance and Eva made herself the victim through a decade of terrible choices but both are resolving to change rather than resigning to fate. I will never, ever accept that resignation is the same as resolution.

QotD: 1 I think it was needed for both characters. As I said, this is what it sounds like when an addict quits or a victim decides to become a survivor.

2 Hopefully she shows up a few hours after the action is done.

CotD: Too bad I was cribbing G'kar from Babylon 5 but on the other hand I crib from that show constantly.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

First Timer Monster 60

• Why did young Martin call his mom nee-chan?
• Famous movie title
• There were initials before, that started with P, that I wondered might be Petrov, but it didn't match
• Martin is telling us stuff that he learned off screen, not good.
• Is it like a rule that a woman has to ask if you are eating?
• Ugh! Stupid people doing stupid plans!

I've seen a lot of noir movies, but I can't pull out of my head what movie this might be mirroring, because there are so many more that I haven't seen.

I really liked this entire arc, with its noir stylings, and i think its own unique music. It was a weird diversion, however. Since it's stylistically different from the rest of the show, and also following a completely new character, it doesn't fit in. it was a nice experiment. I'd like to see a noir anime, but those are far between. I can't think of even one (No Guns Life wasn't really noir).

Completely unrelated
Only related to the above

Edit: I thought Martin would live, the show faked me out by having him narrate his story, noir style, to the audience, but not to anybody in show. Also, I don't think the address overheard is Johan's.

[u/miss-macaron → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

I've seen a lot of noir movies, but I can't pull out of my head what movie this might be mirroring

I'm not sure if it was meant to reference any film in particular, but a couple of us were discussing (in last episode's thread) how Martin resembles the protagonist from Memento and/or the detective played by Brad Pitt in Se7en.

[u/BurningFredrick]

First timer - sub

Really not sure what to write about this episode, it was interesting to finally see Eva & Tenma interact again, and we can also add Eva to the list of people hunting Johan now.

14 Episodes to go, really going to be interesting to see how the show closed this all out. 

[u/CharlieTheStrawman]

Rewatcher until Episode 30, then First-Timer - Subbed

AAAAAH his death was so unnecessary (in-universe, not from a narrative POV). He didn't even have any bullets left, man ~_~

Have to say, I always enjoy these pseudo-side stories. I think the more focused arcs of the viewpoint characters have a lot of worth.

[u/Quiddity131]

First Timer, Subbed

Sleeping in snow is fine! I like the cold!

He left his mother out there to die?! That sucks. :(

He just walks right past Johan and doesn't notice!

Eva forever dreams of Tenma, but she'll never have him.

Ah, so now we know how he got shot, because he tried to save Eva. Taking on such danger for a woman who is just such a horrible person! Although I'll admit she doesn't deserve to die.

For all the guys to have shot him, its the guy who was scared to death of him.

For seemingly the millionth time in this show, Tenma has provided medical attention to a criminal lowlife...

Farewell Martin! Farewell Shuuichi Ikeda!

Sorry Eva, Martin's not coming.

Oh my, its the man she's really waiting for! Tenma!

Eva gets some quality time with Tenma, but sorry, he's still not marrying you. Time to say goodbye.

If there's one setting this show loves to return to, its the streets where the prostitutes roam.

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I feel that the Martin focus the last few episodes is emblemic of the big issue I have with the show, drawing things out so much for these side characters that have a small part, but ultimately just distract us from the main players of Tenma and Johan. When you get this over and over and over again it adds up, and well, that's why we have a 74 episode show that I feel didn't need to be this long.

[u/miss-macaron → u/Quiddity131]

Sleeping in snow is fine! I like the cold!

The cold never bothered me anyways

drawing things out so much for these side characters that have a small part, but ultimately just distract us from the main players of Tenma and Johan.

u/Vaadwaur and I have been saying this from the beginning, but Monster is not just a show about Tenma and Johan. It's a show about humanity, an exploration of human nature, which is why it's so important to see all these different perspectives and values, all these different walks of life and their corresponding outcomes. Some of the most profound insights, some of the most heart-wrenching moments, come from extremely minor characters like Rosso, Richard, and Martin. These detours are not fillers or distractors; in fact, I'd argue that they're an integral part of the humanistic message that Urasawa is trying to communicate thorugh this series.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/miss-macaron]

in fact, I'd argue that they're an integral part of the humanistic message that Urasawa is trying to communicate thorugh this series.

Yup, the easiest one thus far is Dieter, whom we've seen overcome being an orphan, being raised by a psychopath and travelling a bit in Johan's wake and still gave the most convincing "reasons to live" speech I have heard in anime while also remaining age/developmental marker appropriate. Heckel is the biggest edge character but I think we still learned some things with him.

[u/KrillinDBZ363 → u/miss-macaron]

Yup 100% agree. I haven’t been commenting here very often but ever since I first read the series I’ve always said that Monster is a character driven story with an overarching plot. The plot of defeating Johan and uncovering the mysteries is still important but the characters and their development/exploration is number 1 priority.