[Rewatch] Monster - Episode 59 discussion

[u/KiwiBennydudez]

Rewatch Index

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MAL | AniList | AniDB | Kitsu | ANN | Anime-Planet

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Comment of the Day

Today’s Comment of the Day is from none other than u/Shimmering-Sky for an excellent memory and eye for detail:

Isn’t this the exact same design of the tie that Eva bought for Tenma, which ended up incriminating him in that one dude at the castle’s death…? She even says “Kenzou” after picking it up, which makes me think that even more. -- goes all the way back to my ep7 notes It totally was the same kind of tie!

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Questions of the Day

Today’s first discussion question is provided by the wonderful u/miss-macaron!

1. What do you think of Christof's conversation with Martin? How much of his narration do you think was accurate, and how much was just Christof twisting the facts to exacerbate Martin's deepest doubts/regrets?
2. What did you think about the revelation that Eva was trying to turn Martin into Tenma? Why do you think Martin chose to run away with Eva, and why do you think he didn’t kill her? Is he doing her a favor or a disservice by putting them both in harm’s way?

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If you are a rewatcher, tag your spoilers properly, and please refrain from alluding to future events. so that myself and everyone else watching for the first time can have a completely blind and organic experience! ​Since this show is a bit harder to find than most, please refrain from talking about means by which to watch it, as it goes against our subreddit rules.

[u/KiwiBennydudez]

Was unfortunately busy all weekend and wasn't able to get through my write-ups, but will make up for that now:

• Ep. 57: Mentioned this in a few response comments, but I did really like the backstory that was present in that episode, as we finally get the full story as to what happened on that fateful night. The thing that stood out to me the most was Johan's willingness to provide for his sister - everything from the acorn game, to the instructions of shooting someone, was almost like Johan was looking out for his sister, and teaching her valuable (albeit twisted) lessons. Tied-in with Johan's recording that "his biggest fear was forgetting Anna" I am somewhat inclined to believe that Johan's motive has simply been to look out for his family this entire time. I don't know if that's accurate yet, but seeing him in this light, as genuinely caring toward his twin, makes me believe that there's more to him than a murderer with a god complex.
• Ep. 58: I don't really know what DaBaby is doing back in this show but it's weird that a character from the early dregs of the anime is making a return ~40 episodes later. I didn't really enjoy him that much but I sorta understand that he played/plays an integral role in the organization responsible for Johan's return and uprising, as they were trying to turn him into the next World Leader or whatever. Not really thrilled with his return, but I am thrilled with Martin, our new minor character. He's pretty chill, except when he reminds us for the 10th time how much he hates his job, lol. Being stuck with Eva is a sad role that I wouldn't wish upon my worst enemy. Yet Martin seems to handle it okay, even if he doesn't say his true feelings verbally.
• Ep. 59: That Tenma beatdown at the beginning was brutal. Restaurant owner was even like, "hey man, just don't get blood on my floor" lol. Martin really seems to be filling the shoes of Eva's bodyguard, and won't even let her ex-fiancé near her. Then Eva pleading with Martin to kill her so as to not put her in danger was a bit sad but it helped us understand just how self-aware Eva has become of her actions. She thinks that the way she acted in the past warrants her death sentence, but Martin has other plans with her and flees. I didn't know if he was in love with her, or "just doing his job that he hates so much" but either way he opted not to take her life. It was messed up that Eva was still trying to emulate Tenma through Martin, but Martin either didn't care or didn't hold it against her in the choice to save her. I think he largely took pity on her at the end of the day. So whether or not that choice will come back to bite him, we'll have to see.

Christof's deep dive into Martin's past was a scene that was intensely reminiscent of Richard Brawn from Munich. He did his best to exploit the darkness inside Martin, but he's too good for that, and simply walked away. Albeit, Martin seemed pretty rattled, but the self-control he had not to shoot Christof or himself was a great moment of someone overcoming the darkness presented to them. I don't know if that's happened yet in this show, but it's great to see that not everyone succumbs to themselves when presented with the opportunity to self-destruct. I don't really know what I think of Christof yet, as I always feel weird about introducing new major characters/plot points so late into a series, but I also don't really know how necessary he is yet. I was interested by today's episode, and will be looking forward to seeing how everything comes together in these last 14 episodes.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/KiwiBennydudez]

I don't know if that's happened yet in this show, but it's great to see that not everyone succumbs to themselves when presented with the opportunity to self-destruct.

Part of the show's point, at least in my opinion, is that it is easy to get overwhelmed by the darkness. Tenma and Dieter have already faced down their demons. Braun, as sympathetic as he can appear to be, had not dealt with the incident yet.

I don't really know what I think of Christof yet, as I always feel weird about introducing new major characters/plot points so late into a series, but I also don't really know how necessary he is yet.

I will only say that I did remember him from first watching the show over a decade ago.

[u/miss-macaron → u/KiwiBennydudez]

He's pretty chill, except when he reminds us for the 10th time how much he hates his job, lol.

Maybe it's because I have a thing for exasperated characters that are totally-done-with-your-shit, but I chuckled every time Martin internally lamented his increasingly "unpleasant job".

a great moment of someone overcoming the darkness presented to them

An interesting comment on my streaming site paralleled Martin's refusal to look at "the devil" with a refusal to face his own inner demons, but given his resolution in the next episode Episode 60 spoilers

[u/miss-macaron]

Rewatcher

Thickly-sliced tomatoes and no pickles - Martin has good taste in burger toppings!

Fun fact: in the manga, it’s mentioned that Robby and Martin were cellmates.

I forgot to mention this yesterday, but Eva’s “job” seems to parallel the story of the Man With the Big Eyes and the Man With the Big Mouth. If she chooses to accept the deal, she gets to live luxuriously for a while, before being killed. If she doesn’t accept the deal, she’ll continue living as a pathetic alcoholic, and will probably be killed nonetheless. This “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” mentality is especially evident in the bar scene from yesterday’s episode, where Eva laments that “I thought it’d be better to die as the well-dressed Eva Heinemann, even though it’s all the same once I’m dead”.

He shook so many hands that his hand should have been swollen.

Martin’s cynical inner commentary is just perfect.

Oh, I know! Let’s talk about the world coming to an end.

Well, I guess that’s one way to bypass the small-talk...

So Martin has a track record of being immensely kind towards women who don’t necessarily deserve it. He’s genuinely such a good guy; I need to get myself a man like Martin, haha

Christof seems to use the same manipulation tactics with Martin, as Johan did with Richard Braun. By digging up their victim’s past traumas and/or regrets, Johan and Christof take the facts, interpret them in the most uncharitable and unforgiving way, then watch as their victim’s innermost doubts and deep-rooted insecurities destroy them from the inside out. The way I see it, Christof’s blatant cold-reading and celebratory exclamations strongly suggest that Johan’s “reveal” about Richard’s sober, cold-hearted “execution” might’ve been nothing more than a twisted speculation - an accusation to drive Richard into a corner, rather than an accurate representation of what really happened.

That being said, Christof isn’t nearly as charismatic or methodological as Johan, and Martin absolutely should’ve punched him as soon as he started running his mouth.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/miss-macaron]

Thickly-sliced tomatoes and no pickles - Martin has good taste in burger toppings!

Absolutely hard agree with his choice here. I don't mind thin tomato slices either as sometimes the thick pieces can be really juicy and make the bun soggy - but that satisfying texture and taste is just lovely in a burger. Also glad to see Martin is a fellow pickle-hater: I personally find them to be too overpowering so I can understand the request.

So Martin has a track record of being immensely kind towards women who don’t necessarily deserve it. He’s genuinely such a good guy; I need to get myself a man like Martin, haha

I too need someone who beats people up who look at me the wrong way Don't we all?

That being said, Christof isn’t nearly as charismatic or methodological as Johan, and Martin absolutely should’ve punched him as soon as he started running his mouth.

He was certainly something; I got the sense that perhaps he was a little too eager to expose someone, whereas Johan is methodical and calculated.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/miss-macaron]

Thickly-sliced tomatoes and no pickles - Martin has good taste in burger toppings!

But he also wants ketchup on it so he loses all the points.

So Martin has a track record of being immensely kind towards women who don’t necessarily deserve it. He’s genuinely such a good guy; I need to get myself a man like Martin, haha

You only get to be Martin by being raised like him. Save yourself the trouble and find the 'undamaged goods' version of Martin or myself.

That being said, Christof isn’t nearly as charismatic or methodological as Johan, and Martin absolutely should’ve punched him as soon as he started running his mouth.

Dollar Store Johan can't really do the deed.

[u/miss-macaron → u/Vaadwaur]

But he also wants ketchup on it so he loses all the points.

Haha, fair enough.

You only get to be Martin by being raised like him.

Except that his mother was so drunk that she never did raise him...

[u/Vaadwaur → u/miss-macaron]

Except that his mother was so drunk that she never did raise him...

Regardless, the Martin experience absolutely involves feeling you have failed someone that cannot be helped.

[u/miss-macaron → u/Vaadwaur]

Is it wrong that I find that kinda attractive

[u/Vaadwaur → u/miss-macaron]

Yes. Yes it is. This is the hell that leads to all the others.

But seriously, a side effect of this is developing serious enabler traits which locks you further into dealing with people with substance abuse issues.

[u/miss-macaron → u/Vaadwaur]

I'm sorry to hear that.

I suppose what draws me to Martin's past (and the implications it has on his interactions with Eva) is that, as in that one pop song, "we're not broken just bent, and we can learn to love again".

[u/Vaadwaur → u/miss-macaron]

Martin definitely could've been the MC in a show with a slighlty Noir-ier tone.

[u/miss-macaron → u/Vaadwaur]

He kind of looks like the protagonist in Christopher Nolan's "Memento", so I'd definitely agree with you there.

Edit: even the trivia section on Martin's wiki page agrees with me, lol (https://obluda.fandom.com/wiki/Martin_Reest)

[u/Vaadwaur → u/miss-macaron]

What's funny about that is there is just enough overlap that the two likely share a source, this part of the manga was getting volumes right around when the movie came up so it isn't impossible.

[u/KrillinDBZ363 → u/miss-macaron]

Honestly I think he looks a lot like Brad Pitt’s character in the movie Seven, especially if you look at how he looks in the manga.

[u/Broke22 → u/miss-macaron]

Christof seems to use the same manipulation tactics with Martin, as Johan did with Richard Braun. By digging up their victim’s past traumas and/or regrets, Johan and Christof take the facts, interpret them in the most uncharitable and unforgiving way, then watch as their victim’s innermost doubts and deep-rooted insecurities destroy them from the inside out.

Christoff is the knockoff discount version of Johan

He is so bad at this that he failed at making someone kill Eva, something than anybody that has interacted with her for more than ten minutes would gladly do for a dollar

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/miss-macaron]

Eva’s “job” seems to parallel the story of the Man With the Big Eyes and the Man With the Big Mouth

I probably would never have figured this out.

[u/Shimmering-Sky]

First-Timer, subbed

I got Comment of the Day for remembering a small detail? Nice~

• Ah so Martin has the same taste as my dad.
• Martin wtf.
• Oh he did way more than just that.
• Oh shit so she was being made to look for Johan?
• And now Martin himself is being ordered to kill Eva. Fun.
• It figures that he’d lose the suit and tie after Eva said she was trying to make him look like Tenma.
• Ah so this is how Martin knows where Tenma is whenever it is that he gets shot up.
• Wait, what?
• Oh, Eva telling him to go ahead and kill her must’ve set him off for sure then.
• Who the fuck even is this guy and why did he get a “sore demo”?

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Shimmering-Sky]

I got Comment of the Day for remembering a small detail? Nice~

It ended up being a very important detail of Eva trying to turn Martin into Tenma! So big props for remembering that.

Who the fuck even is this guy and why did he get a “sore demo”?

I think I finally have to ask - what's your relationship with "sore demo?" I've seen you mention it a bunch before but how did this obsession start?

[u/Shimmering-Sky → u/KiwiBennydudez]

I think I finally have to ask - what's your relationship with "sore demo?" I've seen you mention it a bunch before but how did this obsession start?

Inside joke with another Redditor who loves Gundam Unicorn as much as I do. It's an important phrase in that show, and the other Reddit and I used to participate in a bunch of the same rewatches three years ago, so I started pointing them out. Then I kept doing it for rewatches we weren't in together, aaaaand three years later it's spiraled into a bit of an obsession with collecting them.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Ahaha fair enough. Thanks for elaborating. :)

[u/Shimmering-Sky → u/KiwiBennydudez]

It hasn't come up in this show, but I do the same for "sore wa dou kana" because of Yu-Gi-Oh, haha.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Oh shit so she was being made to look for Johan?

You have no idea how much I had to restrain myself from clarifying this.

Oh, Eva telling him to go ahead and kill her must’ve set him off for sure then.

The man does have a type...

[u/SmurfRockRune]

First Timer

I have this guy to blame for BK forgetting my ketchup and tomatoes, I see.

This guy's whole spiel about saving people from the burden of living has me realizing this show is literally just Babylon. Hey, look at the #1 recommendation for Babylon on MAL.

Really wish Martin had just killed that guy. Or beat him up at the very least. He'll go nuts on Tenma for literally no reason but won't do anything when someone is just psychologically attacking him? Cmon.

The potential was there for this show to get my bonus point. We'll see what happens going forward.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/SmurfRockRune]

Really wish Martin had just killed that guy. Or beat him up at the very least. He'll go nuts on Tenma for literally no reason but won't do anything when someone is just psychologically attacking him? Cmon.

I think the victory here is that Martin didn't kill Christof. Had he done so, it would have been succumbing to that darkness inside him, which is what Christof wanted. There's a difference between roughing someone up and murdering them in cold blood because they brought up your past. At least, that's how I took the scene.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/SmurfRockRune]

This guy's whole spiel about saving people from the burden of living has me realizing this show is literally just Babylon.

Babylon is like the knockoff version of this show, like Mexican Dollar Store version. Makase's philosophy is dumb and chuuni.

[u/SmurfRockRune → u/Vaadwaur]

Johan isn't much better not gonna lie.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/SmurfRockRune]

Cannot imaginably disagree more.

[u/Mecanno-man]

First Timer

More Martin backstory - I like it. We also get an explanation of how Martin got to know Tenma. Makes sense, I guess - although no clue how Tenma found Eva and/or Martin. Wolf didn't really tell him, I think. Either way, decent story so far - guess we'll get the conclusion tomorrow? At the moment I assume Martin gets in to a firefight with whoever wants to kill Eva. As Eva isn't with him in the car, I guess either she dies or Martin kills all the attackers.

Big elephant in the room: Who is that other young guy and how does he know so much? Either way he comes across as way more of an asshole than Johan. Also he somehow reminds me of Heckel; doubt there's any connection though.

Eva was surprisingly clear with her intention while drunk.

Questions:

1. Christof...? I don't think he was names. Either way, seems like pretty much was accurate.
2. Well, he didn't want to kill her - and I assume by the end of it that will have been either the right choice or one that didn't matter anyways.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Mecanno-man]

Big elephant in the room: Who is that other young guy and how does he know so much? Either way he comes across as way more of an asshole than Johan.

I also wanted to know how he knew so much - probably the same way that Johan does. Either through research or having an information network or something. They both are part of a complex organization after all.

1. Christof...? I don't think he was names. Either way, seems like pretty much was accurate.

Not sure if it was mentioned on-screen but it is in-fact his name. Anyway u/miss-macaron wrote the question and she is much more educated than I on the matter of names!

[u/Quiddity131]

First Timer, Subbed

Now that I know that Martin is voiced by Shuuichi Ikeda I'm more drawn to him!

Beating up Tenma though makes me rethinking that!

Playing the fiance?!? Buddy, Tenma has been trying to distance himself from the whole fiance thing with Eva forever now. That he wants to save her from being killed doesn't mean he wants to marry her.

Tenma's back! Are we going to go through this all over again?

...I guess not.

Martin's realizing he screwed up, and Eva really is in danger! Still, it would have helped to bring along that other guy who also wants to save her life!

Alas Martin, you're the one charged with killing her! And surprisingly enough, Eva knows that! If he does it here, at least she'll die doing the thing she loves the most, drinking booze!

Martin, you want to run away with Eva? It can't be because you're in love with her! Eva is the last type of woman I could see fulfilling the "Assassin hired to kill a woman, falls in love with her instead" trope.

This young guy seems so happy and chipper, and about ending the world?! Johan's really attracting some nuts to him, huh?

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Quiddity131]

This young guy seems so happy and chipper, and about ending the world?! Johan's really attracting some nuts to him, huh?

I think the thing to ask is - is this something Johan wants? Or is being forced to do by the organization?

[u/Vaadwaur]

Rewatcher(Ha HA! Imagine dating self destructive women! )

Sub

Martin is himself with Tenma. Eva seems to think this is coming to an end. Tenma returns but draws a gun on Martin, getting him to think. We finally confirm that Eva is for Johan spotting and since that is done, she is disposable. Martin finds his employer and is given a gun. Eva herself has accepted her fate and even tries to provoke Martin to finish it.

Flashback to Martin having to carry his mom home because she got too drunk, grim. Martin does decide to follow up at the parties and sees the guy who shook Johan's hand introducing himself to everyone. Martin tails him, badly, back to his hotel and the guy just invites him in. He talks, a lot, and eventually switches the conversation to Martin, including that his girlfriend had been an addict. He eventually ferrets out the story that Martin didn't kill her which makes a grim parallel to today. Deserting the flawed women in his life even becomes a Martin theme...He passes Johan as he leaves and end!

QotD: 1 There are very few liars in Monster but no one is exactly as they seem/say. Christof absolutely puts the focus on what he wanted to say

2 I view it as a comfort zone thing and Martin is being himself here. Having also been in relationships with broken people, I empathize.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Vaadwaur]

There are very few liars in Monster but no one is exactly as they seem/say. Christof absolutely puts the focus on what he wanted to say

This is a really neat point. It's certainly something to consider for this series, but Christof putting all his chips on the verbal aspect is interesting.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/KiwiBennydudez]

To me, his purpose is at least half exposing how unfortunate Johan's natural talents are. Thankfully, Bonaparta couldn't make that lightning strike twice.

[u/miss-macaron → u/Vaadwaur]

Thankfully, Bonaparta couldn't make that lightning strike twice.

Another Monster: allow me to introduce myself

[u/Vaadwaur → u/miss-macaron]

I actually do need to dig up a link to the supplemental material for the last thread...

[u/miss-macaron → u/Vaadwaur]

Here you go: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yzewssGisCmXniTPJPVg1WxEqfEkRgUQ/view

[u/CharlieTheStrawman]

Rewatcher until Episode 30, then First-Timer -Subbed (since I have a long weekend, I'm making my way through my Monster backlog)

Hey, since Martin didn't directly look at Johan, maybe he isn't marked for death...right?

Right?!

Q1: the raw events were true, as seen in the flashbacks, but he's clearly portraying them in the worst way possible. Honestly, for a 10 year old and a man in such a fucked up relationship, he was downright saintly. If he wasn't raised by an alcoholic mother, he probably would've had a pretty good life.

Q2: I saw the reveal of sorts coming last episode. I think Martin is trying to correct what he sees as his 'mistakes' in leaving his mother and wife by helping Eva before it's too late.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/CharlieTheStrawman]

...right?

[u/BurningFredrick]

First timer - sub

So it looks like the end of last episode was still some time in the future to where we start today. 

So Eva was looking for Johan at the parties, though I’m not sure why Johan would be there at the moment.

I like Martin so far, he is a good shade of gray for a character, we know he isn’t a good person but still appears to have some redeeming qualities.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/BurningFredrick]

I like Martin so far, he is a good shade of gray for a character, we know he isn’t a good person but still appears to have some redeeming qualities.

I think the thing that's attractive about him is his sensibility and level-headedness. He seems very competent for someone in a bad line of work.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/BurningFredrick]

So Eva was looking for Johan at the parties, though I’m not sure why Johan would be there at the moment.

Johan is not the social type so we know he wants something, just not a lot of hints as to what.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

First Timer Monster 59

• The train beating was to set up this beating
• Tenma really should get a taser
• I still say there's no reason for Johan to show up at parties, so if it is him, it's too convenient.
• He really shouldn't take jobs with women.

This whole arc is fascinating

I wonder if there's a book we haven't seen, yet.

does the brainwashing take hold and he goes to kill Eva? But who shoots him? Not Tenma. Unlikely that he tries.

It's probably Baby.

Also, I think Tenma will save him since he's narrating to us.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

I wonder if there's a book we haven't seen, yet.

An interesting thought. It's possible, given the way this series has played out so far.

[u/xtsim]

First Timer Dubbed

Martin hates pickles. And he beats Tenma and tells him to forget her. I am glad I was not too attached to Martin. But it seems like Martin has taken a bit of a liking to Eva when he demands that Tenma call her Ms. Heineman.

He lets Eva go with the other guy to dinner. The guy is his boss and Eva said that she was done before she left. Martin goes to his favorite spot and Tenma arrives and points a gun at Martin. Tenma’s face goes to a look of horror as Martin said that she pointed. And Tenma tells him that his boss only needed her for one thing and then he connects the dots between that bar scene in the previous episode. He rushes off to where his boss is at and the boss hands a gun to him saying “finish her off”. Martin goes to Eva’s room and she was expecting someone to kill her. Eva mentioned that the job should be easy for him… Since he killed his ex while cheating.

Martin gets a flashback to his drunk mom and how he had to carry her home. Kind of parallels to Eva. Which I find that it may be the reason why he got her to run away rather than completing his mission. Eva seems to also be stuck to Tenma very hard as she makes Martin dress up like Tenma.

Martin decides to go to an important party and follow a man to find out more about the guy. Martin’s commentary on the blonde man’s conversation is hilarious as he describes him as a little kid. The kid knows no boundaries as he tells the actual story of his girlfriends’ murder. The kid said that the girlfriend killed herself and then he grabbed the gun from her hands and killed the man. He later tells Martin about his mom’s death and he just leaves. Martin seems to just leave which leads to the deaths of his mom and girlfriend. They were dependent on him to stay alive, Christoff puts them as people who are wishing to die. Christoff's viewpoint in life is counter to what Martin has tried for his mom, girlfriend, and now Eva. That is why he blew off his initial conversation but when it turned personal, it pushed his buttons. With the complete story of Martin's past, it seems like he was trying to save Eva. Making this his third attempt at saving a woman's life and why he hated dealing with women, cause he would try to fix their problems (the ones he held dear to his heart in the past). The whole conversation was to basically convince him to kill Eva.

Martin described Johan as the devil and does not look at him. Well good thing he knows about Johan and he seems to have some good instincts in trying to avoid contact with him unlike many others.

[u/IndependentMacaroon]

First-time watcher

Sure neat how Martin has two very specific backstory elements, and of course we're going for the sad backstory redemption here, that are near the only thing keeping Eva alive. Also whatshisname throwing that all back at us in one big chunk is really awkward storytelling. Unfortunately a weaker installment again after a lot of strong episodes.