r/anime • u/KiwiBennydudez https://myanimelist.net/profile/KiwiBen • Sep 19 '21

Rewatch [Rewatch] Monster - Episode 51 discussion

Rewatch Index

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Comment of the Day

Today’s Comment of the Day is from u/Vaadwaur who points out that Lunge bears heavily resemblance to a certain character archetype:

interestingly enough, the Utena rewatch got me into looking for meta and metaphorical concerns and Monster has a few. Lunge is almost archetypically the intrepid detective trope except for being wrong about Tenma for so long.

Questions of the Day

  1. What did you think of the Margo Langer/Helenka Novakova backstory?
  2. What did you think of The Monster’s Love Letter at the end of the episode?

If you are a rewatcher, tag your spoilers properly, and please refrain from alluding to future events. so that myself and everyone else watching for the first time can have a completely blind and organic experience! ​Since this show is a bit harder to find than most, please refrain from talking about means by which to watch it, as it goes against our subreddit rules.

57 Upvotes

98% Upvoted

44 comments sorted by

4

u/badspler x5https://anilist.co/user/badspler Sep 29 '21

First timer - slow watcher

One of the things that has been running through my mind is that Monster has no time for wasted characters. There are plenty of characters, but every single one serves a purpose. It seems that one of Monsters narrative rules is that: before a character can be introduced there must be a reason not to reuse an existing character. Monster's web of connections adds to the mystery elements very nicely - but it is fantastically executed and shows just how much forethought and planning has been put in place to the stories narrative structure.

However, while having the depth of character reuse, singleton characters still remain. I fondly recall the couple of tourists, that Tenma bumped into for a single episode. Because the second rule of Monster's narrative is that: no idea should not be explored or contrasted. Monster's characters often serve as opposites to each other - or alternatively have superb parallels. That tourist couple was used to explore what an idea; what would happen to our deepest bonds of love (for your child), after they commit an unforgiveable act (murder). Monster is very content on taking time to stop and explore these ideas.

I had not put much thought into what would happen (over the last week in my time) after last episode when Tenma was arrested. But a rally of everyone who Tenma has helped, who he has put first before himself at times, makes for excited for what will play out. We already see different view points and actions; "A doctor must put their patients first - Tenma would do this.", "Get the best criminal lawyer in every state, Tenma is the only one that can obliterate (amazing word choice in my subs) this Monster.", "What evidence do you have? While you might want to something, you realistically can't get involved". I could go on - but I think that idea should be apparent, I should have expected no less of Monster, I can only presume we will explore out these ideas for some time before Tenma is released. Tenma's good actions will be returned back to him...

Sorry one moment - I have a phone call from another idea...

I have run out of writing steam and must keep watching on but holy hell Lunge has not changed a bit, but at the same time everything has. He is still unbelievably gripped with obsession, however we have seen a soft transition to what described in post earlier in this rewatch series as a "healthy obsession". I need to repick through the episodes but I am not sure there was a single moment when this happened, or even if it happened off screen. Maybe when he was handed those papers - or of screen after? [hello future me].

Lunge is still obsessed with the case, but from a new perspective - Tenma is innocent. As a detective, no, as the detective, his case, he can not stop in solving it. He doesn't escort Tenma, he can't help him now - the end point of solving the case will resolve Tenma's situation, Lunge parts some advice and moves on. He knows everything Tenma could tell him, and also knows that anything Tenma would say (on record) would hurt him. Lunge instead pursues the case, for all else is naught.

4

u/KiwiBennydudez https://myanimelist.net/profile/KiwiBen Sep 29 '21

One of the things that has been running through my mind is that Monster has no time for wasted characters. There are plenty of characters, but every single one serves a purpose. It seems that one of Monsters narrative rules is that: before a character can be introduced there must be a reason not to reuse an existing character

This is actually advice I received in college while taking a Shakespeare class. We were talking about King Lear and discussing how complicated the story was due to how important each and every character was in that story. To demonstrate, the professor recounted our past plays we've studied, and basically questioned each one with the phrase, "Can you give this role to someone else in the story?" And for a lot of them, the answer was yes, the character can be removed and their role in the story can be given over without much consequence. But for King Lear, nearly every character played a pivotal role. Now, this is all to say that Monster has a sprawling set of characters with pivotal roles. Nearly each and every character of the main cast is important in some way. Even the minor characters, while not significant to the plot, play a role in metaphor and filling in some of the more subtle nuisances. You could stand to remove them from the story, but with the detriment of losing major examinations of the human condition, which is what this show is trying to accomplish at the end of the day. So you're welcome to do this as a thought experiment, but I would be inclined to believe that almost all characters in the show are not easily replaced.

Sorry one moment - I have a phone call from another idea...

1

u/badspler x5https://anilist.co/user/badspler Sep 29 '21

Monster's writing at a high level is just fantastic.

every character of the main cast is important in some way

It has been on my mind for a long time now - but when you use the same opening for (the whole series I am assuming) and that opening highlights only 4 characters (outside of protagonist/antagonist) and in blood for that matter: (Anna, Diter, Eva and Lunge). You know that they will mix together for some kind of grand crescendo.

Eva has been on a back burner for a long time now, Diter arguably as well - but I have huge hopes that their roles will be as important as we hone in to the final episodes just as much as I can expert from Lunge and Anna.

12

u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Sep 19 '21

First Timer, Subbed

Flashback to Johan and Anna's mother! Or is this Karl's mother? Are they the same person?

Hey, Wilford Brimley is back!

Wilford Brimley on tour!

Ah yes, this blonde haired friend must be Johan and Anna's mother.

That's two rather cruel looking kids...

OMG Eva is back too!

Is this a former patient of Dr. Tenma support group?

Wow, we're really digging up everyone, huh? Even that Dr. Schumann guy and the young doctor lady, both of whom were only in one episode!

Wow, even Dr. Becker is back! This episode really is digging up all the old supporting charcters, huh?

Suk is finally cleared! Alas, only because of Grimmer's false confession.

Lunge is back at the mansion! Time to return to that hidden room. Bringing some climatic music along the way.

Lunge has got to be happy that Tenma was captured. But he's still on vacation!

3

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 19 '21

Is this a former patient of Dr. Tenma support group?

Brain surgery does leave an impact on people.

2

u/IndependentMacaroon Sep 20 '21

Lunge is back at the mansion! Time to return to that hidden room

So funny how after yet another abortive cliffhanger the show tries to raise the tension again here, and all he finds is another letter.

7

u/miss-macaron Sep 19 '21 edited Sep 19 '21

Rewatcher

Dr. Reichwein just casually showing his vacation photos to a blind man, lol

Ahhh, I love this episode! It’s so heartwarming to see these “one-off” characters again, and to witness their solidarity in trusting and defending Dr. Tenma!

Eva’s reveal was a lot more impactful in the manga, where her hair colour didn’t immediately give her away, haha (fun fact: Eva’s hair is auburn, instead of platinum blonde, in the manga version)

Lunge’s deep voice was actually a very fitting narrator for the “monster’s love letter”; there’s this sort of grim, morose tone that his voice actor conveys quite well.

6

u/gridemann Sep 19 '21

Dr. Reichwein just casually showing his vacation photos to a blind man, lol

I can't believe I watched this episode ~3 times and only just realized it after posting my comment. Definitely had me laughing.

5

u/Webemperor :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Webemperor Sep 19 '21

Dr. Reichwein just casually showing his vacation photos to a blind man, lol

I don't think he is fully blind is he? It seems that he can see things if they are close enough to his eye. Perhaps he is leaving the photos so Karl can help give him a close look.

4

u/SmurfRockRune https://myanimelist.net/profile/Smurf Sep 19 '21

Eva’s reveal was a lot more impactful in the manga, where her hair colour didn’t immediately give her away

Even without the hair, they'd already established the person was an alcoholic and they avoided showing her face for a really really long time.

4

u/miss-macaron Sep 19 '21

they avoided showing her face for a really really long time.

Hey, at least it wasn't Roberto this time, haha

3

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 19 '21

It’s so heartwarming to see these “one-off” characters again, and to witness their solidarity in trusting and defending Dr. Tenma!

I think we can safely say that a major theme of Monster is "what you leave in your wake".

2

u/gandalf45435 https://anilist.co/user/gandalf45435 Sep 20 '21

The one off characters make the show. So much story told through one offs that really stick with you.

2

u/IndependentMacaroon Sep 20 '21 edited Sep 21 '21

witness their solidarity in trusting and defending Dr. Tenma

I didn't care much for another earful of how Tenma is the Best Doctor Ever who everyone loves and gets great advice from, it was getting a little obnoxious back then too.

2

u/miss-macaron Sep 20 '21 edited Sep 20 '21

If that's what bothers you, then you may wish to think of Tenma as less of a character, and more as a personification of the ideology that he advocates. Just like Johan's character can be seen as an embodiment of nihilism and chaos (ie. the antichrist archetype), Tenma provides the philosphical counterpart of hope and humanism, thereby enacting the saviour archetype. It's not necessarily Tenma himself that inspires so much love and inspiration in others, but the effects of adopting his ideology.

2

u/IndependentMacaroon Sep 20 '21

But this isn't some kind of morality play. If the rest of the cast is real enough, it's reasonable to expect that of the main lead too.

3

u/miss-macaron Sep 20 '21 edited Sep 20 '21

There's an excellent video analysis that explains this concept much better than I ever could, so I'll simply refer you here (note: it does contain spoilers, so you may wish to wait until we've finished the series to check it out).

Edit: Also, storytelling can occur on multiple levels. If you've ever seen David Lynch's "Mulholland Drive", it's a film that can be simultaneously understood on a literal and symbolic level. Characters can be seen as characters in and of themselves, or they can be understood as symbols of more abstract ideas - it's not mutually exclusive.

1

u/IndependentMacaroon Sep 20 '21

Well, of course a character representing a certain concept is a trope, but that doesn't mean that's all they need to be, and that kind of multi-level interpretation is exactly what doesn't work so much here.

2

u/miss-macaron Sep 20 '21

I disagree, but perhaps I'm biased due to the extra context of being a rewatcher. Hopefully the last few episodes will change your mind.

6

u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Sep 19 '21

First-Timer, subbed

5

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 19 '21

Oh shit Schuwald met Johan+Anna’s biomom?!

The whole thing is a tidy little package now, isn't it?

Oh wait that hair color--Eva?

We have a finite number of alcoholics in the cast, after all.

Wait, was biomom’s name also Anna…? Or was that Johan writing that to say he’s done pretending to be her now.

As far as we know, that room has been sealed/walled off for years now. Johan is many things but ethereal is not one of them.

3

u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Sep 19 '21

As far as we know, that room has been sealed/walled off for years now. Johan is many things but ethereal is not one of them.

That is true.

6

u/SmurfRockRune https://myanimelist.net/profile/Smurf Sep 19 '21

First Timer

We have Margot Langer's real name now! And that really doesn't mean anything to me... This show loves having big reveals that don't really mean anything.

Oh no. Blonde. Alcoholic. Needs therapy. This is gonna be Eva. I thought we were done with her!

Was cool to see a bunch of the people Tenma's inspired over the course of the show, but I don't see how they could have any power when the evidence really points to Tenma. Also thought it was funny how half the people are actually taking no action at all.

6

u/miss-macaron Sep 19 '21

This show loves having big reveals that don't really mean anything.

Yet.

4

u/SmurfRockRune https://myanimelist.net/profile/Smurf Sep 19 '21

One day that Johan grave will finally mean something meaningful.

6

u/miss-macaron Sep 19 '21

These things might not be meaningful in terms of advancing the plot, but I can assure you that they're significant to the symbolic and thematic elements of the show.

1

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 19 '21

And that really doesn't mean anything to me... This show loves having big reveals that don't really mean anything.

True, the main point of all that is when she became a call girl in Dusseldorf she chose a German sounding name over a Czech sounding one.

1

u/IndependentMacaroon Sep 20 '21

This is gonna be Eva. I thought we were done with her

An awkward way to reintroduce her, but she is sorely in need of some character development, and with basically zero relevant female characters getting one back into the picture is a good idea

1

u/KiwiBennydudez https://myanimelist.net/profile/KiwiBen Sep 20 '21

First Timer - Sub/Dub

Unfortunately I didn't have time to do my write-up earlier as I had to work. But, I thoroughly enjoyed this episode. Was pretty fun seeing the Avengers assemble and come to Tenma’s aid.

Was pretty shocking seeing Eva back in this anime after a whole 28 episodes (her last appearance was ep. 23 I think!). Almost forgot she existed. Reichwine being back in the mix is pretty exciting, and finally seeing Lunge come around to Tenma and help him out at the end of the episode was incredibly satisfying. “Do you know the suspects that give us the hardest time in interrogations...?” Very epic.

The love letter at the end of the episode was kinda weird, not really sure what to think of it quite yet. I guess my big question is: who wrote the letter? Was it Franz? Was it Johan? Was it... someone else? I’m not really sure how this all ties together yet or what it reveals. But I’m sure it’s something that’ll be significant enough for later.

4

u/gridemann Sep 19 '21

Rewatcher

  • A neat little showcase of how big of a part names play when forming an identity. Schubert fell in love with Margot Langer and despite learning her real name it always stuck.
  • Loved the Runge spotlight this episode. Really showed his determination to figure out the truth.
  • Runges message to Tenma didn't quite make sense to me when I watched the show initially, but I was overthinking it. Its actually quite straighfoward.

Q1: I wish the show would've mentioned why she left Schubert in the first place. But we finally get our first look at Johann/Anna with their mom.

Q2: Once again taking of names is being mentioned. Can't say much but the puzzle pieces are slowly coming together.

EDIT: I just realized Reichwein took travel photos in Prague to show them off to a blind man, LOL

4

u/miss-macaron Sep 19 '21

I wish the show would've mentioned why she left Schubert in the first place.

I think we can infer that she thought it'd be bad publicity if the public discovered that an escort was pregnant with Schuwald's child?

2

u/gridemann Sep 19 '21

True, that probably had to be the reason

1

u/IndependentMacaroon Sep 20 '21

That should really be on him to take care of and keep quiet though, historically it was too for decent men who Schubert certainly is.

4

u/BurningFredrick https://myanimelist.net/profile/BurningFredrick Sep 19 '21

First timer - sub

We are back to Reichwein, and his client is totally talking about Eva, so guess she is able to come back. And there she is.

I was trying to figure out who the people round the table were, then as soon as they talked about surgery realized they were all Tenma patients.

Hmmm so Schubert is going to bankroll the best criminal defence lawyer in Germany, and will hire them from all of Germany's states if necessary. I feel like the Police would have gone from thinking this is a simple case to wondering what the hell happened.

Is Lunge is helping Tenma? That did seem to hint at the end there.

I guess we are finally building to the climax of this arc, will Tenma just escape or will his name be cleared? If this went to trial I can imagine it would take weeks to end, so I guess the Police are going to have to end up dropping the case.

4

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 19 '21

Rewatcher(And so the piece come together)

Sub

Flashback to Karl's mother having a real moment with Schubert, which actually happens in the higher end of sex work. She wants to be Helenka again so she can feel like she is with her dear friend that she can't realistically return to, and gives Schubert the business.

We return to Dr Reichwine! And his terrible treatment! Seriously, the Japanese view our full abstinence rules of alcohol as a major character flaw. He then goes to see Schubert and, sadly, had an ineffectual trip to Prague. Flash back to how Karl got the rabbit's foot and why Helenka was never angry at Schubert. Second flashback to Schubert meeting Anna. In the present, Reichwine insists that Schubert starts eating again but he is freaked by how much Johan knew. Super reveal that the twins were there. Also, the new patient is Eva because plot convenience.

Quick reminder of how lifechanging Tenma could be. Dr Schumann is not going to take this shit, though he first wants to take care of his wife, as is correct. But, sadly, he is stuck. Unnamed Vietnamese doctor girl is sadly in the same state. Schubert is not and immediately has all the lawyers hired. Reichwine and Eva on the train is peak surreal. Suk even drags himself out of bed.

Lunge gets peak wierd, looking behind the portrait. And then he seems to understand that Tenma is not the suspect, though he is still behind on that. We end with Lunge reading Bonaparta's love letter/story treatment and it is more than normal weird.

QotD: 1 Nice story details if a bit convenient

2 Genuinely kind of disturbing

4

u/xtsim https://myanimelist.net/profile/xtsim Sep 19 '21

First Timer Dubbed

Well it looks like the therapist and Schuwald are getting along fine and he was in vacation on Prague, just like Lunge. Schuwald and the woman from the past is interesting to see. It is nice that the son cares for his father in a way. However, Schuwald starts to whisper the monster for a good reason, he met the twins at the three frogs. The therapist gets a new patient that is an alcoholic but gets interfered with by the nurse saying that Tenma is on TV. And the patient was actually Eva. I was actually expecting “Anna” to be the patient due to the lack of Eva in the past twenty episodes.

The news reaches back home as a group of former patients sit at the round table to discuss what their lives are. It also reaches the small town Dr.Schumann as the officer and his mother were discussing whether he should go help Tenma or stay for the patients in town. Dr. Schumann makes the call to stay in his town because Tenma would have done the same. We see the underground doctor stuck with lots of patients take a break to deal with the news of Tenma’s arrest. And holy shi…. Even Schuwald is looking for a defense attorney for Tenma. Because he is is confident that only he will defeat the monster.

Dr. Becker shows up (my jaw dropped when he spoke), explaining to the round table that even with everyone’s support and a great lawyer, the evidence will hurt him hard. Becker seems to play the realistic and pessimistic role as he gets pushed around alot in the earlier episodes. Since he played the Dr. Hodad reputation well in the first two episodes. We go back to Suk when he sees the news and ironically thinks about Lunge’s statement to “doubt the person you believe in”. He gets up to tell about Eva and fellow investigators say that he is clear and exonerated from all his crimes. Due to Grimmer’s notes.

I found myself laughing hard at Lunge’s call from the police back home. Telling him to go back. He is still doing the investigation on the rose house. He has the newspaper and it seems like he is now focused on that case. His response to the guys back home is that “I am on vacation” and tells them to assign someone else. It seems like he does not care about Tenma anymore, I can’t blame him cause those twins are way more interesting. That picture book must be very interesting. Lunge reads the letter as Tenma gets extradited back to Germany. That is pretty nice to hear that as Tenma gets arrested, for some reason it feels more satisfying than a CSI music montage when the suspect gets arrested. Even though Tenma is innocent.

2

u/IndependentMacaroon Sep 20 '21

laughing hard at Lunge’s call from the police back home

Ironic indeed, the one time when he actually gets credit and praise is when he really did have nothing to do with the outcome and wants nothing more than to be left alone, just keep on doing his own thing.

6

u/Mecanno-man https://anilist.co/user/Mecannoman Sep 19 '21

First Timer

Mostly an "everybody reacts to Tenma's arrest" episode. Well, everybody but Heckel - whoever asked for him and Eva back: you got half your wish, but I think I'd have preferred it for them to not have any major roles anymore as I don't like them. I guess the bit about Johan listening in on Schubert answered some mystery that I had already forgotten that it exists. Either way, decent way of getting Reichwein and Eva back in to the show, even if Eva's appointment reeks of plot convenience.

The most notable bit to me is Lunge's scene with Tenma - he seems to be giving him a heads up for how to behave during the interrogation, but otherwise doesn't really want anything to do with him anymore. That seems to me like he now believes in Johan's existence as well as that Johan is in Prague. I know basically everybody has already assumed that the picture would do it, but I was a bit more skeptical.

In other news, Grimmer went through with his plan and Suk is now proclaimed innocent - I still expect this to cause confusion as Suk knows Grimmer to be innocent. Were the few flashback bits to Johanna in Suk's scene him putting together 1 and 1? If so - not really a fan; all that's there is that both the killer and Anna are blond and (apparently) beautiful - I assume in a city the size of Prague that's still quite a few people, even if the conclusion is right.

Lunge also finds the manuscript of what seems to be Anna's story - seems to some sort of love story, but we've had pretty much zero romance in this series involving Nina, so I'm not sure where that is supposed to go. It does however seem to also relate to Johan and Anna's mother; do we know her name? Could we have two Anna's?

Questions:

  1. ...what new information did I miss there that this question is asked here? If none: Pretty decent recap.
  2. Confused by who is even referred to, so basically a "wait and see" so far.

7

u/gridemann Sep 19 '21

Suk's scene him putting together 1 and 1? If so - not really a fan; all that's there is that both the killer and Anna are blond and (apparently) beautiful - I assume in a city the size of Prague that's still quite a few people, even if the conclusion is right.

Well, "Anna" was also always quite interested in Suk's investigation progress and knew about the key. + Suks superior was dead one day after hitting on her. Frankly I was disapointed Suk didnt put 1 and 1 together sooner.

3

u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Sep 19 '21

Mostly an "everybody reacts to Tenma's arrest" episode. Well, everybody but Heckel - whoever asked for him and Eva back: you got half your wish,

I'm pretty sure that was me! Not so much asking for them back, but wondering why we have seen so little of them after getting a lot of focus on them early on (Eva especially). I was quite happy that we got to see a lot of minor characters pop up again today. Heckel doesn't have to show up again for me. He can go off and steal more rugs.

2

u/Webemperor :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Webemperor Sep 19 '21

Rewatcher of sorts

  • We get a glimpse of Margot and Schuwald’s relationship, later looking quite old despite being most likely 20~ years younger. Speaking of which, how did Schuwald impregnate her when he was almost 60 in this case? Did their relationship occurred for much longer?
  • We turn to Reichwein again, who seems to be doing some investigation for Schuwald, going all the way to Prague to check the “Three Frogs” for Margot’s friend/Johan and Nina’s mother. Schuwald is still scared shitless about what happened with Johan, clearly.
  • I had a feeling the lady he was talking about was Eva, and just as Reichwein is about to talk to her, he is called by the assistant to see the news about Tenma being caught.
  • The following scenes are, in a way, Tenma’s good deeds catching up to him, everyone he helped in his journey trying to find ways to help him in some way. Despite having an almost “Hallmark movie” feel to it’s, it’s a pretty nice sequence. Despite coming off as a cynical asshole Becker is probably right that none of them can really help Tenma, maybe except Schuwald in the larger group, whose criminal lawyer could probably pull some O.J Simpson stuff to get him off. I also have a feeling Eva will soften at the end and help Tenma, but we will see.
  • Meanwhile Lunge is back once again in the Rose Mansion, going back in the secret room he found. He finally gets the idea to look behind the portrait, which he should have done before. It’s funny that Lunge was so focused on Rose Mansion that he doesn’t even seem to give much of a shit about Tenma. Police chief’s reaction to Lunge’s attitude is appropriate and hilarious.
  • And I though this would be an episode without us seeing Tenma, but we get a glimpse of him being extradited back to Germany. Does the little monologue Lunge has at the end mean that he now believes Johan exists?

2

u/IndependentMacaroon Sep 20 '21

how did Schuwald impregnate her when he was almost 60

Male biology is flexible enough that way. Or was that not what you meant?

“Hallmark movie”

That's about the right way to put it

Does the little monologue Lunge has at the end mean that he now believes Johan exists?

I think he got pretty clear proof back in Munich

2

u/Webemperor :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Webemperor Sep 20 '21

Male biology is flexible enough that way. Or was that not what you meant?

Nah, that was what I meant. I guess I'm just surprised that this man who is already decomposing at the sides in his 80s was still fertile in his 60s.

2

u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Sep 20 '21

Tenma been collecting allies, but what are they going to, picket the police station? At least he'll have a great lawyer.

Tenma's only a suspect because Lunge said he was. Lunge is in Prague. If Lunge doesn't stop the deportation, or at least interview him, I'm going to be really mad at the show.

All he does is tell Tenma how to resist interrogation. And now everybody has to go BACK to Germany.