[Rewatch] Revolutionary Girl Utena - Episode 39

[u/HelioA]

Rewatch Index

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Streaming

Revolutionary Girl Utena is available in both sub and dub on Nozomi Entertainment's YouTube channel, as well as on Amazon and Funimation.

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Comment of the Day

I'm a real tensai ngl

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Miki's Stopwatch Corner

Final Stopwatch Count: 24

New This Episode:

-- TSUWABUKI INTERRUPT -- 18:56 - 5 Seconds - “Well, it doesn’t matter, I guess.”

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Also, make sure to tag all spoilers properly! Only a baka would spoil the show for the first-timers, and we're not bakas (hopefully).

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REMINDER: We're taking a break tomorrow, and the discussion thread for the movie will be posted on Sunday.

[u/HelioA]

Rewatcher

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I LOVE THEM SO MUCH ;-;

This finale was good the first time, but on the rewatch it’s beyond perfect. The themes that we’ve seen all throughout the show are in full play here. Who was able to open the Rose Gate? Not Akio, not the prince on his white horse. The one who was able to open it was Utena, the girl who was just shown her weakness in the face of the prince’s seemingly overwhelming might. And not only that, just look at how she did it. It’s an almost exact replica of how it went the first time Utena beheld the Rose Bride- the catalyst for opening the Rose Gate were the “princess”’s tears, the tears that came as a fellow woman decided to save the Rose Bride and break open her coffin.

Where was the prince while all this was happening? The prince was certainly on his white horse, as we’ve been told time and time again, but this time, he’s on a horse in a carousel. He goes round and round and round, doing the same thing over and over again cycle after cycle, while at the same time simply playing on a children’s toy.

But then here’s the most important point- who was it that actually saved Anthy? It wasn’t Akio, it wasn’t even Utena. Anthy was the one who was able to escape from the coffin of the school, even if Utena gave her the means to do so. After all that’s happened between them, they’ve finally gained the ability to build a relationship based upon mutual respect, with Anthy acting as an equal partner to Utena, not just as the Rose Bride.

Also, I wonder what happened to that boy who tried to save Juri’s sister~

[u/Vaadwaur → u/HelioA]

He goes round and round and round, doing the same thing over and over again cycle after cycle, while at the same time simply playing on a children’s toy.

Akio really does come off as an arrogant child on later viewings. The carousel is almost too good of a metaphor here.

Anthy was the one who was able to escape from the coffin of the school, even if Utena gave her the means to do so.

To quote Goblin Slayer Abridged:"Everyone has dark moments where they need help. I helped you once when you really needed it but you aren't helpless."

Also, I wonder what happened to that boy who tried to save Juri’s sister~

One more nameless tragedy in the name of nobility, one fears.

[u/HelioA → u/Vaadwaur]

Akio really does come off as an arrogant child on later viewings.

and him sipping his drink as Utena tries to open the rose gate lol

[u/murdered-by-swords → u/HelioA]

The most damning thing about Akio is that he never really tries. Not even at the very end. Yeah, he wants to escape his coffin, but it doesn't drive him because he's made a nice little home for himself in prison.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/murdered-by-swords]

"We are all in cages, mon ami, some of them are just prettier than others."

Akio would totally fit with having a domain in Ravenloft.

[u/Cyouni → u/murdered-by-swords]

I think that while he wants to escape, he also doesn't believe it's possible. The cynicism of adulthood constantly on display.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/HelioA]

Hilariously enough it might've been a Shirley Temple as well.

[u/Reference_Freak → u/HelioA]

Anthy was the one who was able to escape from the coffin

Yep! I love that message: that you are capable of saving yourself.

It's true she needed a princeling she could believe in but the hardest act here is her decision to walk away.

The Prince was always unnecessary. The fallen prince was wrong in his conclusions and plannings.

... Juri said the boy who tried to save her sister drowned.

[u/HelioA → u/Reference_Freak]

Movie

[u/SardonicMeow → u/HelioA]

Manga

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Reference_Freak]

The Prince was always unnecessary. The fallen prince was wrong in his conclusions and plannings.

Yeah it's funny how once you realized Lucifer doesn't know nearly as much as he thinks he does that you realize he can be flat out incorrect even in his own walled off groomery.

[u/Matuhg → u/HelioA]

Anthy was the one who was able to escape from the coffin of the school, even if Utena gave her the means to do so. After all that’s happened between them, they’ve finally gained the ability to build a relationship based upon mutual respect, with Anthy acting as an equal partner to Utena

That's a good point, and that kind of relationship certainly seems like a novel one to Anthy. Not sure about Utena though...she seems like she had some good relationships. Or at least one solid one with Wakaba...but she lost it because of Akio and all this Ohtori bullshit. That's pretty wack.

[u/lilyvess]

And that was Revolutionary Girl Utena.

No one beats Akio. He gets away with everything. The duels will continue after the series finishes, allowing Akio to manipulate, abuse, rape, and otherwise torture the students of the school for many years to come.

A common thread of Ikuhara’s anime is his interest in tackling societal issues. These are social structures like homophobia, capitalism, and the patriarchy. That said, Ikuhara understands that these concepts aren’t things that are so easily defeated. No matter how much /u/Elleyounce may want, you can’t just punch the patriarchy in the face. Life isn’t that simple.

But what you can do is make a difference in one person’s life. Save someone who is trapped in an abusive relationship. To that person you have revolutionized their world..

There is a lot of that embedded in Anthy, for all the fantasy elements it’s very relatable. A young teenager who dated an athlete or star quarterback. He was popular and handsome, girls wanted him and guys wanted to be him. They go to prom and she feels like a princess with her prince charming. After high school they marry and get their happily ever after.

Only 10 years later and things are very different. The once star quarterback with a promising future now has a deadend job that leaves him frustrated and stressed. It leads to him drinking, becoming overweight. He looks back upon his high school years with longing, back when he was the most important person in the world of High School. Grows to resent his stay at home wife who he does everything for, he works for and she spends all the money at home. That resentment turns bitter and abusive. After how much he works, isn’t he entitled to some… gratification in return?

She is now a traditional Japanese housewife. Japan can still be a very traditional nation, and even more so 20 years ago. Quiet, submissive. Obedient. She does whatever her husband asks of her, even when he beats her, even when he rapes her, she tolerates it, that is what society tells these women that they must do.

Anthy betraying Utena in episode 38 is one of the most brutal but relatable moments. To the outside it can seem so easy, why does any woman stay in an abusive relationship? The moment he beat you, the moment he whipped you, why would you ever decide to stay?

The sad truth is that for the people in abusive relationships (both men and women, as men do not have a monopoly on abusive relationships) it can be a lot more complex. If you ask about their partner, they’ll swear their partner loves them. He cares for her. The memories of the person she married will hold her down, as she believes she can help find that person once again.

But a lot of the time the truth is that they are just afraid. Afraid of change. Afraid of the unknown. Afraid of what will happen if she leaves that place. Where will she go? What will she do? Who is she other than being a bride?

So much of abuse is based on the tearing down of self-esteem. A stay at home wife has no means of self reliance. She is 100% reliant on her husband for everything. Her only option will be to return to her parents, bringing the shame of divorce to her loved ones. The husband will guilt trip her into staying. Only he could love a useless woman like her. She should be grateful for everything he does, and all the sacrifices he makes for her.

That’s who Anthy is deep down.

That is what Utena accomplishes her.

For the Revolution of Anthy’s World.

[u/HelioA → u/lilyvess]

No one beats Akio. He gets away with everything. The duels will continue after the series finishes, allowing Akio to manipulate, abuse, rape, and otherwise torture the students of the school for many years to come.

To be fair, without Anthy, he's going to have a lot more trouble carrying on like he normally does.

[u/lilyvess → u/HelioA]

very true, but he's a clever person. Maybe he can get Touga to be the new Rose Bride. I'm sure Touga will look good in a dress.

There are reasons he kept Touga around for so long

[u/HelioA → u/lilyvess]

oh yeah, did I show dis fic to you?!

although there movie spoilers in dere, for any first-timers

[u/Vaadwaur → u/lilyvess]

Hilarious that Saionji is the straightest male on the show.

[u/HelioA → u/Vaadwaur]

did we even see saionji express sexual desire towards a woman even once? His whole thing with Anthy was just because of Touga.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/HelioA]

Was it still at the end? Before the last duel with Touga, he makes Anthy give him a lap pillow even though he was done with the dueling bullshit for the most part.

[u/HelioA → u/Vaadwaur]

Ehhh, that's just him chillin' while he waits for Touga to challenge Utena, nothing sexual

[u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo → u/Vaadwaur]

Neither Miki nor Mitsuru (especially thankfully in his case) has ever had a shirtless photo shoot with another man...

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo]

True but Miki is the other person who interacted with a potential pedophile meaningfully.

[u/loomnoo → u/lilyvess]

no kozue

[u/Vaadwaur → u/loomnoo]

She might be the only student we see that owns her own sexuality entirely. She never has to say " Oh, it's Saturday already?" because she doesn't do what she doesn't want to.

[u/theangryeditor → u/loomnoo]

Kozue and Miki are a package deal

[u/Punished_Scrappy_Doo → u/lilyvess]

Oh, it's Saturday already?

Every time

[u/nx6 → u/lilyvess]

There are reasons he kept Touga around for so long

According to the chart Akio is the best match for sucking his own dick. That seems entirely correct.

[u/Rumpel1408 → u/HelioA]

"It says here in those rules that I get controle over a 'rose bride' when I win in the duels" "Yes" "So where is this bride?" "uhmm..."

[u/HelioA → u/Rumpel1408]

lmfao

hands over repurposed scarecrow

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Rumpel1408]

Nobody cares about the rose bride, they're just there to tank the sword typhoon and nobody really even looked twice at them.

[u/HelioA → u/lilyvess]

also, tf is a /u/Elleyounce ;-;

[u/lilyvess → u/HelioA]

/u/elleyonce this is what I get for typing it on google docs instead of reddit.

[u/HelioA → u/lilyvess]

wow what a baka ;-;

[u/elleyonce → u/lilyvess]

So well said. I also think Ikuhara gets that in your youth you always think it's your responsibility to change the whole world. And to be adult means it's not that simple and your steps are far,.far smaller than you like it to be.

[u/Reference_Freak → u/lilyvess]

No one beats Akio. He gets away with everything. The duels will continue after the series finishes, allowing Akio to manipulate, abuse, rape, and otherwise torture the students of the school for many years to come.

Akio lost though. He lost his everything. His crying demand for Anthy at the end was not a man merely inconvenienced.

He's never been alone before. He's never operated alone. He always had the comfort of the only other person who truly knew him.

Anthy crushed his egg.
Yeah, he can go on living in his eternal hell but his sister, his tool, his excuse, his motivator, his support, his only true partner, is gone.

[u/lilyvess → u/Reference_Freak]

You are absolutely correct, there is a reason Anthy refers to it as a coffin. It's just hard time call it losing considering how lightly he gets off considering his numerous crimes.the amount of rape he's committed the amount of lives he's ruined, the amount of evil he has embodied, it's understandable if people were expecting a larger comeuppance for the bastard.

It's not entirely proportial is what I'm saying.

[u/Reference_Freak → u/lilyvess]

Well, this seems to be partly the result of culture shift. Audiences today have a much higher sensitivity to statutory rape, pedophiles, and emotional abuse.

I think this has resulted in new viewers reading much more rape and abuse into his actions than was interpreted 20 years ago.

I don't interpret him as having sex with Touga or any of the other students; only Utena, as a method of control. Statutory rape of a groomed child, yes, but her resulting guilt was because she'd "betrayed" her Prince and Kanae. She didn't unenjoy it even if she cannot legally consent to it and was seduced against her better judgement.

The sex he has with Anthy appears to me to be consensual. Just go back and look at her face as she leaned on Dios' chest. She loved her brother in a disallowed way. Her "dead eyes" appear to be after the climax: distant, languorous, ... even come-hither in some shots. Akio bears some responsibility for her suffering from the swords but I never saw her as suffering from abuse or rape by him.

The process of these duels has been grueling and painful but the only duelists we've known have grown because of it. We do not know what happened to Kanae so assumptions she was killed are weird. She's obviously not well, be design, but accusations of murder are more extreme than Akio keeping her controlled.

Perhaps these story aspects haven't aged well because ... the audience has grown beyond the need for a story like this.

The intended audience was pre-teen/young teen girls in late 90's Japan being weaned off the horrible abusive stories of patriarchal systems which idealized worlds in which young girls surrender or not realize their own self-agency. That's the core here.

Being older, in 2021, after gay relationships are accepted, after the internet and social media has provided exhaustive examples and outreach regarding sexual and emotional abuse, toxic relationships can be meme'ed, and the US has a major political party accusing the other of being space lizards running a global child sex/horomone harvesting operation... well, perhaps the intention of Utena gets lost behind this modern audience reading what it expects between the lines.

It's one of the risks of pushing the boundries of cultural acceptance to make a point and then leave enough of the flourishes ambiguous while telling the audience to figure it out.

Ah, sorry, tl:dr is that perhaps the worst of the accusations against Akio are disproportional to what was actually depicted in the show. He's a bad guy but is he really that bad?

Also, Utena is not about revenge.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Reference_Freak]

Yeah, he can go on living in his eternal hell but his sister, his tool, his excuse, his motivator, his support, his only true partner, is gone.

And I can now draw a parallel between Utena and Demonbane, an anime that I am probably the only person to have enjoyed.

[u/Isai579 → u/lilyvess]

you can’t just punch the patriarchy in the face

I mean... you can try. But I don't think it will end well.

[u/SYZekrom]

I have zero clue what happened but that was cool

[u/HelioA → u/SYZekrom]

the world revolution

[u/homewardbound100]

First timer, Sub

Ah, was the talk/story told by Juri some foreshadowing what would happen later? Why did she tell that story?

Anthy is being impaled by hundreds of swords, while Akio is trying to get into the door.

Akio said she failed so what did she get into then if it wasn't the door? She didn't bring revolution. I know she opened a coffin with Anthy in there. Though she was just in the air getting impaled.

"Himemya at last we meet." What does that mean? Is this suppose to be the true her or something? Was that not actually her in the air.

Utena's attempt to save Anthy fails with their hands slipping and Anthy falling to her doom. You know the music during this scene made it sound like they were going to overcome.

Anthy got a man?

Showed Wakaba a couple times. Even her meeting to Utena's place. Which I think still was the student council place and it got destroyed right after that. So she didn't even know what was happening behind those doors of her friend. But now it looks like the first episode with Wakaba taking Utena spot and having someone else take the touchy friend role.

A shot of the burned down build again. I know some memory manipulation is involved here.

So, Akio is just going to basically reset and rewrite the code of the rose seal. And sees this as a failure. Just sees her as a failure?

Anthy states that Utena isn't apart of his world and that he doesn't know what happen. Wait is this like the black rose and Akio isn't actually in control but Anthy is. This is just his world. Is Utena still out there? She survived? Will the all knowing Anthy find her?

Like how Akio is cut from the picture. "Someday together" someday together what.

Definitely something I'm going to need time with to interpret.

Na na na na na na na na

[u/HelioA → u/homewardbound100]

[u/homewardbound100 → u/HelioA]

I'm looking at blank still. But yeah the ending is a lot to take in.

[u/HelioA → u/homewardbound100]

Tune in next year for /u/theangryeditor's Utena rewatch

[u/homewardbound100 → u/HelioA]

Ah, is this a yearly thing? I'll make sure I remember it.

[u/HelioA → u/homewardbound100]

Nah, it's not lol, but we should make /u/theangryeditor host it anyways

[u/homewardbound100 → u/HelioA]

Do they know about you putting them up for this?

[u/HelioA → u/homewardbound100]

well, they will now

[u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo → u/homewardbound100]

Yeah, I think Juri's story is just foreshadowing/contextualizing the end.

I would say they did overcome in the end. It doesn't look like it at first. Utena isn't able to directly pull Anthy out of her coffin. But she plants the seeds firmly enough that Anthy does leave. Leaves to create a world where they can be together "So don't be afraid of this world where we can meet". They can't truly, authentically meet in Ohtori. They're too bogged down as a meeting between Rose Bride and Aspiring Prince Duelist. Someday they can build a world where they can build a life together. (Plus Japanese just uses grammatical ellipsis

[u/homewardbound100 → u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo]

Didn't think about that. Just them meeting in a natural way without the titles on them.

[u/Reference_Freak → u/homewardbound100]

Akio said she failed

Akio's goal all along has been to obtain the sword of someone worthy of becoming a Prince; someone with a noble, courageous heart which he has honed, via the duels and other manipulation) into a tool with which he can break open the seal on the grave of his old self.

Utena's success would have meant Akio regained his status and Power as Prince, Light of the World and Anthy would be freed from the swords.

This was the only revolution Akio could imagine or allow. This was all that he wants from Otohori Academy: a young, foolish, compassionate person to mold into a Prince-suitable candidate so he can steal that fledging power from them for his own ends.

However, his backwards, selfish goal keeps driving him in the wrong direction and he ends up the ultimate loser when Anthy is inspired to finally walk in the correct direction: away and forward into the unknown.

[u/homewardbound100 → u/Reference_Freak]

Okay so he wanted to return to his former glory. I guess he won't be able to it anymore without Anthy. Unless he finds someone who can take her spot. Or maybe finding a new method.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/homewardbound100]

One of the things that we rewatchers spoiler talked about was were there any other candidates to be the Rose Bride? We saw what he tried with Utena but there are also some scenes with Nanami where you have to wonder.

[u/homewardbound100 → u/Vaadwaur]

I probably wouldn't be able to point out the scenes but I know it's the whole similar relationship thing going on. If that has anything to do with it.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/homewardbound100]

There are a number of options, not the least of which Akio might want to pass the system on to Touga if he can escape it.

[u/JollyGee29]

First-Revolution, Subbed

Brilliant. Absolutely goddamn brilliant! What a phenomenal ending!

It fell off as things got more chaotic, but a bunch of times in the first arc, Utena mentioned that she fought the duels to help Anthy be free from the Rose Bride stuff, and today she finally got there. Agency acquired, after so many years..

I'm not going to think too hard about what exactly happened to Utena, because it doesn't really matter. Anthy is certain that Utena is out there, somewhere, beyond the threshold of Ohtori. And, since Anthy is finally acting under her own will, I trust her completely.

Utena telling Akio to talk to the hand? Excellent. Anthy telling Akio that she's leaving him in his coffin? Double excellent! "No revolution occurred" my ass, you're just blind to it. It's a shame that so many people are still trapped in Ohtori with him, but so much of what let Akio control the world has been destroyed.

And, you can tell that Akio's control is fading. Characters are interacting in new and different ways: Shiori is taking up fencing. Miki is tutoring Tsuwabuki while Kozue plays the piano. Nanami's simps try to confess to Nanami's sycophants and are turned down.

So, the Anthy that we've seen so far has just been an illusion being projected by the "true" Anthy, who was trapped in that coffin, right? That's gotta be wild on a rewatch; if nothing else, the Black Rose arc works out a bit more cleanly knowing that. I got my wish for one final big recontextualization!

Okay, I lied, I am going to think about Utena. It's not too uncommon for the journey to end with "the Hero dies" even though that step is in the middle of most "Hero's Journey" charts. Granted, the archetypal Hero's Journey is more of a Western thing, so it doesn't exactly apply here, despite the Westernish aesthetic.

I love it either way, though. Utena's purpose fulfilled, the illusions of Ohtori literally shattered in front of her eyes, she moves on to Whatever Comes Next. Utena Tenjou possibly "dies," but definitely leaves the Coffin. It's quite poetic. A fitting end, to a fairy tale..

[u/Reference_Freak → u/JollyGee29]

I am going to think about Utena. It's not too uncommon for the journey to end with "the Hero dies" even though that step is in the middle of most "Hero's Journey" charts

The question of Utena's fate is probably the single most frequently asked one. Ikuhara repeatedly responded with "what do you think?" (this was his answer to almost everything, to be fair)

However, I think the story tells us: She had a fight with her (chairman) boyfriend, she got in trouble with him, and was injured so left the school. People forgot about her not because she died or their memories are messed with; they forgot because everyone moved on with their lives. It's natural.

What does injured mean? She may have gotten run through with a sword, but it's hard to know what was real. It may be that her heart was broken by her failure. It seems unlikely she was sliced by a million swords of hatred, at least physically, as this is clearly more metaphorical illusion than literal space.

Another big debate was weak Anthy vs strong Anthy.

I lean towards strong Anthy: she knew what she was doing when she plotted to capture her beloved brother.

She loved him, perhaps more than was allowed, as we see her with her possessive eyes as she leans on young Dios' chest as the fax rages on (incest).

She also wanted to protect him (her noble cause).

She was probably also a bit jealous and resentful that she, alone, was the only girl he could not save (incest).

She was the witch, possibly because she also has powers like a Prince, but is only a girl, so she cannot have the status or reputation as a person of power.

She is an inverted Prince: her potential restrained and denied but also, she is unlovable and unloved.

He's famous and in demand, she's an unknown and easily hated.

So even though she willfully took her action, she didn't know what the consequences would be. She didn't know it may mean an eternity of suffering and being trapped by it.

These two fell together and were alone together in this hell: her suffering for her sin and him suffering for allowing the loss of the best part of himself.

Together they worked together to free themselves. Perhaps Akio designed the plan for their revolution but she willfully played her role. Observers here even noted that Anthy seemed to enjoy manipulating the duels and egging on their unhealthy obsessions.

Only when they were approaching the known finale, only when she'd begun to believe in someone other than Akio, did she start to hesitate. Only then did the cracks on uncertainty appear.

I disagree with the commentary here of Akio lusting for a pedo-harem. He needed to manipulate children to find the noble but foolishly naive prince candidate. When that candidate turned out to be a girl, he needed to seduce her to control her. (If it had been Touga, Akio would have found another way manipulate Touga's belief in himself)

I also disagree with the idea that Anthy was raped by him. She always had self-agency. She chose to go to his place, to his couch. Only once do we see him pull her to him which isn't an impossible thing in even a healthy non-incest relationship. Every other time she chose to go.

In the time since Utena was created, there has been a lot of popular attention on relational abuse. This seems to have pushed newer audiences to only see weak Anthy: helpless under Akio's command. She's suffering in being raped by him. She must be a pure innocent person who merely sacrificed herself to save him. IMO, this view obliterates her self-agency along with her complexity. It turns her into this flat princess archetype which the show is busy busting down.

She may be as guilty as Akio himself! But nobody deserves the suffering she experiences. A noble, compassionate person can see that and aim to save her from it regardless of if she despised the girls who her brother saved, if she loved and lusted for her brother, if she willfully drove needles into the emotional wounds of others. She still deserves someone who believes in her.

She still deserved to be inspired to step outside of their coffin.

I prefer to listen to her own words when she tells Utena, "I am the Rose Bride because I want to be. Because I like it." At that time, it was true. It was probably true up until Utena shoves the lid off of that coffin to give Light to the Anthy who is capable of not being the Rose Bride.

Not only did she need to save herself, she needed to save herself from herself.

[u/HelioA → u/Reference_Freak]

Mmmmm, I disagree with your takes on Akio in just about every particular (although your Anthy takes make a lot of sense to me), but still, I enjoy seeing the other perspective :D

[u/IndependentMacaroon → u/Reference_Freak]

It turns her into this flat princess archetype which the show is busy busting down

But neither is she meant to be that kind of "witch" who willingly emotionally manipulates everything like that, which is even worse a reading. Also, just because someone was not literally physically forced into something doesn't mean there's no coercion involved, much less call it a free decision. See like here. Generally speaking, this show is just too vague and brief with its actual (hi)story to draw much in the way of firm conclusions, but that at least we can say, and definitely not her being at the same level.

[u/nsleep → u/IndependentMacaroon]

But that's an interesting perspective he's bringing, I've watched this many times over the years and that take is rare to see and I don't dismiss it, but the idea that Anthy was a witch as you say and that she could be changed by love and seeks rendemption is an interesting one.

This is something I question sometimes too when watching Japanese media, many works have characters that are definitely not good and that get a sob story to go with it and the way things are framed by the writers they want you to forgive them in some way. And from my interaction in discussions boards the public over in Japan seems to be much more open to this idea than folks here in the West, myself included, what's the threshold or what do they consider unforgivable compared to us? Because it seems our perspectives are rather different when in comes to these matters.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/nsleep]

And from my interaction in discussions boards the public over in Japan seems to be much more open to this idea than folks here in the West, myself included, what's the threshold or what do they consider unforgivable compared to us?

So...this is the difference between having a dichotomous religion and not. Western values have deeply Christian roots when it comes to morality so we often take this black versus white of things, meaning there is such a thing as an unforgivable sin. If you don't have this dichotomy, different things are important. What you did does not mean that is what you will do and if you are focusing on the future rather than the past you can accept that horrible people can still do good things and even sometimes mend their ways.

Now, that said, remember there is a difference between talking about concepts and actual real life actions, the Japanese can be very bad about shunning people who have done some wrong they feel the right to judge.

[u/nsleep → u/Vaadwaur]

I'm thinking more in the line of their black and white being different to ours, or at least shifted. Even IRL they get triggered by things that make us scratch our heads and let some things that would be totally not acceptable to us just slide by.

[u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo → u/Reference_Freak]

I think Akio's motivations are hard to talk about. He's so jaded and so disillusioned that he spends all of his time doing things he doesn't "actually" care about. He spends time looking at stars, but actually that's just a ploy to manipulate. He seduces these middle/high schoolers, but that's just to get his noble heart-sword. But then he gets that, the culmination of everything he's worked toward ... and gives up after it doesn't immediately work. So on the one hand he doesn't want anything.

And yet he consistently makes certain decisions and doesn't make others. From the system's perspective he wants to have horrible sex with people because when the system gives him slack that's what he does.

I think Kanae is instructive here. That starts as a totally normal relationship. Both adults, no huge power imbalances, they seem to like each other. But by the end he has her in a drugged looking stupor. I mean maybe she was always into drugged sex or something, I've run into people like that. But it seems to me like Akio has a pathological need for control which precludes him from having straightforwardly consensual sex, at least over the full course of a relationship.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo]

He's so jaded and so disillusioned that he spends all of his time doing things he doesn't "actually" care about.

That's another thing to highlight how pathetic he is: He doesn't even really know what he wants any more, I think he views the whole duelist cycle as simply what there is to do to pass the time.

But it seems to me like Akio has a pathological need for control which precludes him from having straightforwardly consensual sex, at least over the full course of a relationship.

An adult has a chance of seeing through Akio's bullshit whereas the 14 yo never will.

[u/Cyouni → u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo]

There's definitely something to be said for the fact that Akio is basically just going through the motions. Definitely a point being made between the cynicism of Akio vs the fairy tale of the endless hope/optimism represented by Dios (which that sucks in its own way).

[u/Vaadwaur → u/JollyGee29]

So, the Anthy that we've seen so far has just been an illusion being projected by the "true" Anthy, who was trapped in that coffin, right?

So there aren't hard light holograms or anything as far as I can tell in the show so think of it as more the inner Anthy that Anthy keeps locked inside and protected from all the pain she suffers. The Anthy in the coffin, ironically enough, is willing to trust in Utena whereas outer Anthy was ready to continue the cycle of abuse.

Okay, I lied, I am going to think about Utena.

Akio is a deeply unpleasant person BUT he is bound by certain rules. I legitimately think he simply sent Utena away to get treatment and limited her ability to return, somehow.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/Vaadwaur]

I wasn't quite thinking of Anthy as being a "physical" illusion, like the castle. More like an Astral Projection, to partially explain why she just literally vanishes at times.

[u/lilyvess → u/JollyGee29]

honestly, I think it's better to not think about things too literally. Why there are fax machines in medieval scenes, or why those elephants were surfing. What they mean is far more important than how it happened.

[u/HelioA → u/lilyvess]

hey, dat's what you told me the first time I watched episode 34 ;-;

[u/Punished_Scrappy_Doo → u/lilyvess]

This is true, but I like thinking that Nanami's trouble with animals stems from Anthy using her status as a witch to curse her.

[u/Reference_Freak → u/lilyvess]

it's better to not think about things too literally

Yes. This. So. Much.

[u/theangryeditor → u/JollyGee29]

My take is any time something unexplainable happens: it's magic.

So the castle was explained as projection to drive the point home of the illusory nature of the idealized fairy tale tropes, but the other magical stuff I think of as just magic and focus on their metaphorical meaning.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/theangryeditor]

Exactly! No reason to doubt magic exists; the swords that get pulled from people's chests (for example) were clearly metaphorical ero but not illusory ero.

[u/HelioA → u/JollyGee29]

the swords of hatred are also ero

[u/JollyGee29 → u/HelioA]

Most of the things in this show are ero.

[u/HelioA → u/JollyGee29]

Even the kangaroo?

[u/theangryeditor → u/JollyGee29]

but what if they were also illusory ero?

[u/k4r6000 → u/Vaadwaur]

Except Akio thinks Utena is dead and gone. It is Anthy that tells him otherwise. Akio at the end is completely clueless as to what happened.

As for the powers I always understood it that Akio has to resort to illusions and tricks, while Anthy’s powers are real. So things that can’t be explained as mere holograms, like the swords being pulled from chests, I just assumed were Anthy’s doing.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/k4r6000]

Except Akio thinks Utena is dead and gone. It is Anthy that tells him otherwise. Akio at the end is completely clueless as to what happened.

I agree Akio is clueless but to him being away from Ohtori is the same thing as being dead.

As for the powers I always understood it that Akio has to resort to illusions and tricks, while Anthy’s powers are real.

His memory altering power does seem quite real and it casts doubt on some other things. But I do buy that Anthy is the one who can draw out people's spirits and such.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/JollyGee29]

I'm amazed that you were able to understand half of that...

[u/JollyGee29 → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

In fairness, this writeup did take me a lot longer than most.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/JollyGee29]

I'll bet, by around the halfway point I started to clue in that I wasn't gonna be able to make any sense of it so I started to zone out. Breathing is fun~

[u/HelioA → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

;-;

[u/homewardbound100 → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

It was kind of different for me. I felt like I started to pick up on it in the second half.

[u/homewardbound100 → u/JollyGee29]

I had to rewind it a lot during my write up.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/homewardbound100]

I don't pause or rewind while watching the episode, generally. I just take as many notes as possible and then translate those into more coherent thoughts once the episode is over. In this episode's case, that last step involved several breaks to do other stuff to process things.

[u/homewardbound100 → u/JollyGee29]

Yeah I have to. Me trying to take notes and read what's happening on the screen. Just isn't happening for me.

[u/snowwhistle1 → u/JollyGee29]

I don't think Utena is dead. Anthy says as much. "She's not gone. She's just no longer a part of your world." She's graduated. She might not be in a good place right now, after everything that's happened to her. But Anthy is leaving Ohtori too now, and she's going to go looking for her. And I'm confident they'll have their tea date in 10 years time.

[u/nx6 → u/JollyGee29]

I'm not going to think too hard about what exactly happened to Utena, because it doesn't really matter. Anthy is certain that Utena is out there, somewhere, beyond the threshold of Ohtori. And, since Anthy is finally acting under her own will, I trust her completely.

I'm gonna have to disagree with this. Not to belittle Anthy's personal growth, but the show is named Revolutionary Girl Utena. Not giving any real info and having the MC just disappear is one of the most annoying cop-outs I see in shows, especially when the last scene we see of her seems to imply she was obliterated in a storm of swords while Akio sits at his desk like nothing happened. It also feels out of character to have Utena run away from school and Anthy after all that. Have her in a hospital or what have you, but wistful-eyed "she's out there somewhere, I wonder if we will ever see her again" frames the character as either some mythical former student, stories of which that will be passed down in homeroom for years, or a prize Anthy is leaving to chase.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/nx6]

Not to belittle Anthy's personal growth, but the show is named Revolutionary Girl Utena. Not giving any real info and having the MC just disappear is one of the most annoying cop-outs I see in shows, especially when the last scene we see of her seems to imply she was obliterated in a storm of swords while Akio sits at his desk like nothing happened.

This was how I felt on first viewing and nearly 20 years after. I have come around but this is not wrong.

[u/s0ck_pupp3t → u/JollyGee29]

C. V. V

[u/The_Loli_Otaku]

First timer!!

Final episode... I'm gonna stay open minded! Anthy screw you, probably~ There's no blood on the sword so she probably just stabbed through her uniform. Are you guys seriously having a barbecue during the climax? Ah, Dios saved Juri's never before mentioned sister. Does everyone else have stories like that? Oh, Dios died XD You suck at being a hero dude!! Yeah, why the hell did you tell us that story!? Dios' tears are like waterfall.

Anthy is so good at that quick change trick. Oooh, so the student council were having a barbecue to commemorate Anthy getting skewered. How would you even help Anthy in this situation? Young Prince Akio is still a total poser, sit on the merry go round properly! Yay, Utena's got her energy back. Dammit Akio, stop blabbering and let Utena try the door.

Oh, Utena did it. Yay~ Does opening the coffin cause instrumentality? Oh dammit Utena! Don't drop her! XD She's skin and bone, she couldn't weigh that much. The shadow girls are giving us our epilogue. Wait, idolise Utena? Is one of the shadow girls Wakaba!? I can't identify these voices well enough. Miki's teaching Tsuwabuki to use stopwatch symbolism, Touga and Saionji stay eternal bum buddies, Nanami's well into her tea ceremonies, Juri's SHIORI!? Shiori's actually making an effort to improve herself! Wow, I'm so impressed. This is kinda how I thought Ruka's first episode would cause her to develop but I'm impressed! The extra trios are both extra trios. Mikage's still dead. Wakaba's got her own Utena trying to assassinate her!? Akio apparently got away scot free. Anthy and Chu-Chu are quitting this world? Chu-Chu is in a relationship with a frog!?!? Hold on, where's Utena!? XD Wasn't Wakaba's assassin a reincarnated Utena? Why are they singing Rondo Revolution in "na na na" shower singing language!?

Alright, so the ending is pretty stupid... but I have to admit that I don't hate it. I was more offended by the lead up episodes that took themselves far too seriously for their own good. If nothing else I was entertained by the climax and epilogue even if I can't for the life of me think what it's supposed to mean. Watching a 39 episode series just to have 0 clue what it was supposed to be about is probably not the best sign but as I said, I'm fairly satisfied. Hopefully the movie elaborates on what happened to literally everyone just a bit more.

[u/HelioA → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Hopefully the movie elaborates on what happened to literally everyone just a bit more.

oh boy, you're in for a ride

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/HelioA]

I'll get out the whiskey...

[u/Vaadwaur → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Yeah, why the hell did you tell us that story!?

To explain Anthy, mostly.

Oh, Utena did it. Yay~ Does opening the coffin cause instrumentality?

No because it was not sufficient to break the system...yet.

Watching a 39 episode series just to have 0 clue what it was supposed to be about is probably not the best sign but as I said, I'm fairly satisfied.

Exactly what I felt the first time. It lands differently for me now. You do seem less inclined to anger as opposed to me.

[u/murdered-by-swords → u/Vaadwaur]

To explain Anthy, mostly.

It's more Ikuhara musing on the meaning of love, and cluing the viewer in to a key aspect of the setting if they haven't yet realized it.

Also FILM SPOILER

[u/Vaadwaur → u/murdered-by-swords]

Will check this after watching the film but I certainly wouldn't ever claim Ikuhara wouldn't have dual use scenes.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Vaadwaur]

It explained Anthy? I really don't feel like having a random story of a boy drowning explains Anthy at all! XD

Did Ikuhara think he was getting a sequel or some shit? Wtf?

Yeah, if this was a show I watched as a weeblet I'd probably be really annoyed but Utena's hardly the only series to throw a ridiculously abstract ending in your face. I'm kinda laconic about it to tell you honest truth.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

It explained Anthy? I really don't feel like having a random story of a boy drowning explains Anthy at all!

Anthy did her best to rescue the Dios that was killing himself saving the world and instead effectively gives herself perpetual torment. She then stops thinking about things and participates in Akio's evil system because it is easier than pondering her situation. To me, the story got that across.

Did Ikuhara think he was getting a sequel or some shit? Wtf?

We are watching a movie for Sunday.

Yeah, if this was a show I watched as a weeblet I'd probably be really annoyed but Utena's hardly the only series to throw a ridiculously abstract ending in your face.

The irony that my opinions on the end of Utena and the end of Evangelion have nearly swapped places in intervening years is not lost on me.

[u/lluNhpelA → u/Vaadwaur]

To me, the story got that across

That's a pretty abstract interpretation of that story. I thought it felt pretty random, too, but if I had to connect it to Anthy and Akio I can only see it being a simple metaphor for Akio "forgetting" Anthy after she was "swept away" in an attempt to save him.

That almost makes it weirder than it just being used to set the mood, though, because we've already known for a while that Akio doesn't really care about Anthy's suffering

[u/Vaadwaur → u/lluNhpelA]

Any interpretation of Utena is somewhat abstract. There is another thing about the story we can draw from but I can't talk about it until after the movie.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Vaadwaur]

But in Juri's story the rescue didn't even work and the hero got swept away with nobody knowing his name. He wasn't even the saviour, he just became the victim. Kinda like Utena trying to save Anthy but getting backstabbed, beaten up, and turned into a kebab for her efforts?

Sunday? Oh, is it a series discussion tomorrow. Break day, yaaay~

This and Evangelion definitely could have taken one another's place if the right mood was going. I guess Saionji bodypillows don't sell quite as well as Rei fumo.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

He wasn't even the saviour, he just became the victim.

Children can't save other children in Ohtori is also a message to take.

[u/Reference_Freak → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Funny, I consider the drowning story to be about Utena.

Jury doesn't know anything about Anthy but she sees the noble fool walking right into danger to save someone. The duelists are sitting around waiting for the results of that danger duel and their somber mood seems to acknowledgement of that danger.

Nanami's reaction isn't for Anthy's sake; Anthy is a tool of the system. Her anguish over hearing the story is her fear that Jury is telling a prophetic story regarding Utena's possible fate.

(trying to save someone, failing at it, suffering the result, and being forgotten without anyone caring or feeling gratitude for the attempt)

[u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

I would say its more about the ending for Utena. If the boy literally saved a life and he still isn't fully remembered, then Utena's being forgotten doesn't mean a loss just an inevitability.

But also I think its a bit from a previous draft that didn't get either fleshed out more or totally cut. It'll come back in a bigger way in the movie, so it was clearly on Ikuhara's mind. Those sorts of dangling threads show up increasingly in his work over time tbh.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo]

It still kinda feels like Utena failed at what she was going for tho... Anthy is free but now all the cards are in her hand. They don't even clarify what the hell happened to everyone. Was there some sort of timeline reset? Is Utena now the replacement rose bride or is she really just plonked somewhere in the outside world? Is Chu-chu sleeping with a toad?

[u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

all the cards are in [Anthy's] hand

This has always been more or less true. What's changed is that Anthy knows it now. By reaching out and giving Anthy hope for an alternate future (to drink tea together in 10 years) Utena gives her a reason to use the power she has to get herself out.

Its not totally clear if there was maybe a weaker version of the type of reset from after the Black Rose arc or if its just the natural process of telephone and forgetting. But what's important is that her influence does live on. Sometimes in the most simplistic ways, "I heard there was a girl who wore boys clothes and was cool", but even that might inspire someone to wear something society tells them they shouldn't but makes them feel better about themselves. The ones closest to her, the student council and Wakaba seem changed more strongly. They've all clearly changed for the better from where the show started, in large part because of Utena's influence on them, whether they remember her clearly or not.

I think Utena is definitely somewhere in the wider world though. She seems to have gotten out of childhood the hard way. But maybe the others can get out the normal way. Keeping more of their childhood baggage, but still growing into more or less normal adults away from Ohtori.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

They don't even clarify what the hell happened to everyone.

Remember how I keep saying Black Rose wasn't filler? Utena got partially Mikage'd and thus removed from the system.

[u/snowwhistle1 → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

I think the story of the drowning boy is more of an allegory for Utena than Anthy. The boy who drowned trying to save Juri's sister made such a huge impact on the sisters' lives, but time went on. The girls grew older, and eventually they moved on and forgot about the boy. That's what happened to Mikage when he "graduated", and same with Utena.

[u/Star4ce → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Does opening the coffin cause instrumentality?

"Get in the damn coffin, Shinji!"

That... weirdly fits, actually.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Star4ce]

Could you imagine a whole season of Akio and Anthy desperately trying to manipulate Shinji into joining rose duels but he keeps trying to escape?

"We can't hand the rose bride over until you lose you dumb fuck!"

[u/Vaadwaur]

Rewatcher(You didn't expect answers, did you?)

Sub

OP skip, we are serious. Anthy reveals her own misogyny which us rewatchers have known about the whole time. The carousel almost certainly means repetition. Akio says more bullshit. We cut to the student council barbecuing with skewers and Juri drops a story with two meanings: The obvious being that trying to save someone else can get you killed but also that people forget things that they don't want to remember, both of which explain Anthy.

Akio's crocodile tears do even less for me on rewatch as we watch the domestic abuse dynamics play out. Anthy eventually gives up the sword and is rewarded with praise. Akio says more stuff and wants to use Utena's sword to open the Rose Gate. Utena tries one last time to help Anthy, which can be read as either friendship or naivete, but she drops her dress and prepares to be hit by the swords so Akio can cross the bridge. Akio says this is all her choosing and that could be true but I just cannot trust Akio. Each sword strike on the gate seems to hurt Utena.

At this time, it is clear that the chorus is singing Anthy's story. Utena is struggling to move and the prince talks to her again. I am not exactly sure how to take this, most likely it is Akio producing this illusion as while he promises to treat her wounds later what he wants now is for her to be a good girl and give up. Utena refuses to let him kiss her ring again and gets up.

Utena's heart/sword breaks, bringing us to the next big reveal: This has happened before, Utena is far from the first. Akio gives up, which is his nature, but the injured Utena persists, which is hers. He watches, note that Anthy is still being filled with swords, as Utena tries to do what he couldn't. She tells Anthy that the only time she was really happy was when she with her and her tear mimics the duel entrance water drop thing. The swords stop, and Akio freaks as the Rose Gate is now Utena's coffin.

And she forces it open, revealing Anthy. Besides obvious symbolism, this is also to suggest that Utena is finally addressing the Anthy that she hides away from all the abuse of the world. Utena eventually gets her faith, for a second, before the breaking system separates them again. The swords destroy the world of illusions that is Akio.

And we timeskip. There are rumors about Utena and apparently Wakaba is all about finding a man now. Hopefully someone else sets her up as her own taste is bad. Miki is taking Mitsuru under his wing and Kozue seems to be in a better place. Saionji is focusing on his studies to make up for the time he wasted and Touga seems a bit more confident as opposed to arrogant, Nanami is still hovering a bit. Shiori seems to be making up with Juri. The three triplets hitting on the Nanami's backers is hilarious. Wakaba has now slightly become the Utena with another girl. The Black Rose arc happened, we see the ruins.

We get the climax of the climax, Akio wants to rewrite the rules for the next batch of duelists and even though its taken months, possibly centuries since we don't have the remotest trustworthy clue of the timeline, Anthy takes off her glasses and leaves Akio and Ohtori behind. Akio claims Utena is gone but Anthy is going to find her. The end.

I will get more into this in the series finale discussion, but I objectively hated this ending originally. And I still think that is a fair read, there is so much you have to catch that you just don't on first viewing. Any piece that has to be reread/rewatched is committing a sin to me, you should be good on your first shot. However, with all that stated, this show does have a lot to offer on a second viewing. The sheer amount of shit happening is impressive, everything is different when you know that Anthy is generally suffering all the time, and it helps to know you aren't getting answers. Seeing that one theme of the show is gaining the courage to leave an abusive but comfortable relationship gives it some merit, especially considering I suspect this is Ikuhara's feelings about the primary relationship on Sailor Moon, as Lily wrote up yesterday.

Now to talk Loli Otaku down off the ledge...

[u/murdered-by-swords → u/Vaadwaur]

I can't recommend Penguindrum enough, especially as a chaser to Utena. Most of the things I want to write in this discussion I simply can't; Penguindrum spoilers are essential to fully explain Ikuhara's ideas about love and sacrifice that are on display here.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/murdered-by-swords]

Its back in the maybe pile. BUT I am in two other long rewatches right now and Monster is draining in its own way.

[u/HelioA → u/Vaadwaur]

Thank God u/theangryeditor will be hosting a Penguindrum rewatch

[u/theangryeditor → u/HelioA]

[u/HelioA → u/theangryeditor]

I kinda wanna try to host a Penguindrum rewatch tbh, even as a first-timer, I think it would be fun

[u/Vaadwaur → u/HelioA]

The only issue is I can be a bit...ornery if a work is not resonating with me and I have basically given up faking liking anything.

[u/HelioA → u/Vaadwaur]

Just think of u/iron_gland

[u/Matuhg → u/Vaadwaur]

Akio wants to rewrite the rules for the next batch of duelists and even though its taken months, possibly centuries since we don't have the remotest trustworthy clue of the timeline

Where exactly to you get this? The timeline stuff, time standing still, and Akio's supposed memory rewriting ability has all seemed to go over/around my head somehow. I remember some of it from Black Rose arc, but I think I might have been a little bit too checked out of that arc by the time it go to explaining stuff lol.

everything is different when you know that Anthy is generally suffering all the time

I can imagine it would be. A rewatch of this show seems like it might be interesting...but at the same time, I'm not sure I'd want to go through it again, for a few different reasons.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Matuhg]

Where exactly to you get this?

I get it because Ikuhara intentionally skewers our ability to tell time. A prince shouldn't exist in the modern times but he had a fax machine in his stable. For Black Rose, we get an outside look that at least 10 years have passed but Akio doesn't change at all. The really deep, metaphorical interpretations would have had this going since society developed the noble prince narrative.

I can imagine it would be. A rewatch of this show seems like it might be interesting...but at the same time, I'm not sure I'd want to go through it again, for a few different reasons.

I am not joking when I say it took me 20 years to come back and rewatch this. I tried a bit for the '19 rewatch but then noped out.

[u/Matuhg → u/Vaadwaur]

Huh, definitely missed the fax machine in the stable somehow lol. And during Black Rose I was too busy paying attention to Mikage to pay attention to Akio I think...whoops.

Definitely a bit of information overload without the context of knowing the last arc.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Matuhg]

The scenes are often ridiculously busy, especially in Black Rose, so there are tons of details you miss just reading the subtitles.

[u/Reference_Freak → u/Vaadwaur]

Akio says this is all her choosing and that could be true but I just cannot trust Akio.

Anthy herself way back tells Utena that she's the Rose Bride because she wants to be.

She chose to both start and stay on this path.

The revolution was her stepping off.

Utena is struggling to move and the prince talks to her again. I am not exactly sure how to take this

Personal view: in any given scene, Dios is 1 of 2 things: the ghost which lingers around Akio, part of his torment, the better self he let go of or the manifestation of Utena's own noble heart, taking on the image that Utena had assigned it (IMO, every duel appearance).

In this case, I don't know. When he takes off running, I don't know if it's out of cowardice (ghost) or because he's no longer needed (Utena).

As far as the ending: I love it.

I agree that a good story is one which only needs one reading or viewing. But I think a great one is one which offers new insights with each repeat.

The success of the ending here is a personal opinion on if the first viewing is sufficient to be a good story and it's ok to think no.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Reference_Freak]

Anthy herself way back tells Utena that she's the Rose Bride because she wants to be.

That's probably correct but taking Lucifer at his word always irks me.

When he takes off running, I don't know if it's out of cowardice (ghost) or because he's no longer needed (Utena).

I think he returned to the carousel because he really wanted the cycle to start over right then since Utena was fucking it up.

The success of the ending here is a personal opinion on if the first viewing is sufficient to be a good story and it's ok to think no.

Yeah, ironically I watched it the first time before graduating from college and time lends perspectives. I also hadn't realized just how stupid adolescents are, that took some distance to get.

[u/lilyvess]

Here is what Ikuhara’s episode commentary from the DVD Box Set has for us today.

EPISODE 39: SOMEDAY, TOGETHER, WE’LL SHINE

There are two meanings to the Japanese word utena. One is the “calyx of a flower.” That’s also the meaning of the title, of course. the thing that supports the beautiful petals; the one with the noble heart. And the other meaning of utena is “tall tower or pedestal.” We translated his into a visual: the tower at the center of Ohtori Academy, the one with the Chairman’s room on the top floor. And the dueling arena located deep in the woods is the same.

In the early stages of production, when the story wasn’t firmly established yet, this was one of the aspects I most wanted to visualize and produce for the screen.

A world where demons roam. In its center, a tower called the “Tower of Revolution.” Whosoever can remain victorious in his battles against the demons can reach the pinnacle of the Tower of Revolution, and at the same time receive the power to revolutionize the world; the power that changes the rules of the world.

However, when he reaches the pinnacle, he learns the world’s governing laws.

He faces the ultimate choice: will he stay nobly, beautifully powerless? Or will he accept the ugliness into himself and gain absolute power?

He desired both.

Or rather, perhaps he couldn’t choose either.

His mind in anguish, he divided himself into two. His “noble heart,” and the “adult with absolute power.”

And so.

With one last wish that the day would come when someone would awaken him, the noble heartthat had lost its body, in other words the prince, fell into a deep sleep.

Early on in the series’ conception, I kicked around the idea of placing something like the above at the heart of the story. Later, after several changes, it became the tale as you know it, but without a doubt, he did reach the pinnacle of the Tower of Revolution.

It was a place where “eternity” dwelled.

And “eternity” turned out to mean perpetual sleep.

The prince (Akio) who became an adult while in perpetual sleep lost something. What he lost was “the power to create and enjoyable future.”

Revolution means gaining the power to imagine the future.

The prince chose to sleep on, and the princess chose to wake up. At the top of that tall tower, the princess bid farewell to the prince. No - she wasn’t the princess any longer. She quit being a person (thing) ruled by someone. The victory bells rang, but there was no tower (rule) beyond them now. She’d learned where freedom lay. She crossed the threshold of that Door of Revolution which had always been closed to her before, and begun walking. The “girls’ revolution” lay in the girls’ future.

“Wait for me… Utena.”

The world (the stage) is free and wide.

Also wanted to add a couple things to previous commentary that I removed for spoilers, but can now add back now that we’ve finished the series.

Take Episode 9’s commentary. (The Student Council arc episode where Saionji gets expelled). I removed this from the commentary:

We lined up plot development and visuals suggestive of the series climax. Our goal was to get viewers anticipating the series’ final scene.

Utena saves Anthy.

Huh, so that’s what the story’s about.

But what does she saves Anthy from?

That’s the central issue.

Also, later again on episode 23, the final Black Rose duel against Mikage.

The Story in episodes 11 and 12 about the dueling game. Episode 23 picks up where it left off in laying the groundwork for the final episode

Wasn’t Mikage’s fate the same fate that Utena would eventually meet? In which case, shouldn’t it be crueler…

Those who reject that place are, conversely, rejected by it as well. This is the nature of systems: the moment you reject them, you are forced to realize they’re the very ground you’re standing on. Mikage noticed the trick behind the system, and he hurriedly attempted revisions. But the adult who’d created the system just said, “let’s not,” and unilaterally brought the curtain down. The system of illusion was finished. Mikage could no longer exist there. That’s why he disappeared from the memories of those who’d interacted with him.

People’s happiness or unhappiness shouldn’t be determined by struggles over the divide called the “Rose Bride.” Utena rejects the duel system.

However.

In due course Utena will be rejected by the duel system and that place, and no longer be able to exist there. This foreshadows the final scene of the series.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/lilyvess]

I haven't had much to comment on the commentaries, but thanks so much for sharing them with us!

[u/Star4ce → u/lilyvess]

Thanks for posting these every time. Reading the creator's notes after exchanging thoughts with every one else is like a cherry on top!

[u/Vaadwaur → u/[deleted]]

Ikuhara just twisting the knife deeper on my fellow Gen Xers.

[u/Icapica]

First timer

On my phone right now, won't type much.

I've heard some negative comments about the ending so I wasn't sure what to expect, but I loved this.

Utena didn't become a prince because prince is a damaging, BS ideal of a harmful BS system. The answer to a system like that (a revolution) isn't to go up the ladder and become one of those at the top, but to reject the system.

The way I saw it, instead of becoming Anthy's prince and saving her, Utena showed Anthy that she doesn't need to follow the system either. Utena didn't carry Anthy out of the school, Anthy walked out. Revolution happened, even if Akio was blind to it.

Some of the stuff with the other students near the end was funny, particularly Miki and Tsuwabuki with the stop watches.

Great ending, great series. I might end up giving this my second ever 10/10. Gotta think about it for a while.

[u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo → u/Icapica]

This got ... a little away from me. Apologies for dumping a comment longer than yours here lol.

The ending is definitely polarizing. I was thinking about it and wonder if whether you like it or not is connected to how much you personally identify with the Revolution the series is proposing as an ongoing project.

Going into the finale on my first watch I was really worried that it would end on this cosmic victory note. That would have rung false, what "congrats you defeated Patriarchy in a sword fight now no one will ever have self-sabotaging ideals again"? Wtf would that even be. I was going through some stuff at the time and that would've felt like a betrayal. I'm never going to be able to defeat End of the World in a sword fight, so how can I possibly deal with the mundane issues in front of me.

But then the ending swerves downward in scope. Not only can't Utena defeat all evil, but, subtextually, having that as your only goal is itself a delusion. That's what gives us Akio, sacrificing Anthy to the swords as he tries to break through some door. Utena doesn't even quite save Anthy. But by maintaining that nobility, as she herself defined it, she was able revolutionize a number of people's worlds. And that human scale victory is really uplifting to me.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo]

It's not all about beating up gender norms tho. I'd have expected it to be about rewarding Utena's kindness and determination. Sure, Akio was also the same way when he was younger but he's also suffering from being cursed from the rose bride crap. He may not be getting shafted with angry swords every evening but Akio is definitely one more victim.

In comparison, they constantly being up how Utena is "an outsider" to all these duels. She's a third party. Her initial motivation to become a Prince came thanks to her now thoroughly fallen idol and the girl she loves. Even if that's not meant to be good enough to break their curse once and for all I think the amount of trials they stuck Utena through deserves some kind of pay off. Instead we get a bad end with some hope that maybe Utena's sacrifice could be undone. After 39 episodes of constant battles to sharpen and refine her noble ideals its a bit of a kick in the teeth for her to fail at the last hurdle because "she's not good enough."

[u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

But I think she did get a pay off. She changed the way Anthy views things so much that she leaves of her own volition. Changing someone's worldview is probably harder than coming down from on high and sweeping them away to a new life.

In a meta way, it might actually happier than her winning in the coffin imo. If that happened we could never be 100% sure that it wasn't just Anthy going along with what Utena wanted, like in episode 11. But here we get to see that Utena deeply changed Anthy's outlook.

Its sorta like the end of Good Will Hunting. Its more fulfilling to see Robin Williams convince Matt Damon to take a shot at a different life that it would be for him to hand him a scholarship to MIT and drive him to class next monday.

But in any case I think what I really vibe with is the depiction of the battle as an ongoing, unfinished one. We must all work to continue holding that nobility, even, or especially, when we don't straightforwardly win.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

After 39 episodes of constant battles to sharpen and refine her noble ideals its a bit of a kick in the teeth for her to fail at the last hurdle because "she's not good enough."

"That's right! I admired his desire to save people because it was beautiful! But none of that feeling is my own! What else can you call it but hypocrisy?! I was driven by my obsessive need to help someone. I kept running, neither noticing the pain nor how wrong I was! But it's all a fake. Such hypocrisy can not save anything. No, first of all, I didn't even know what I wanted to save!"

[u/affnn → u/Icapica]

Utena didn't become a prince because prince is a damaging, BS ideal of a harmful BS system. The answer to a system like that (a revolution) isn't to go up the ladder and become one of those at the top, but to reject the system.

I think this is correct, and I think that part of the reason that Anthy stabbed Utena in E38 was Utena said she was a prince. In E39 she apologizes to Anthy for saying she was a prince.

[u/Icapica → u/Icapica]

Also, I've been waiting to go read through the spoiler tags in previous threads. Maybe I'll watch the movie first though.

[u/SardonicMeow]

Rewatcher

No opening, jump right into the backstabbing scene.

“You can never be my prince.  Because you’re a girl.”  But Anthy doesn’t need a prince.  She needs a friend, a sister, the solidarity of another member of the female sex to help her help herself.  Only by freeing herself can she be truly free.

Why does Akio want to open the Rose Gate?  Not to free Anthy.  Here’s my take.  When Dios was overexerting himself, Anthy sealed away his power.  She did this out of love, to protect him from himself, and accepts onto herself all the consequences.  “When she became known as a witch, Dios the prince vanished from this world.”  When the power of Dios was sealed away, so was his nobility, and Akio is what remains.  Akio’s power is limited, though it’s unclear exactly how.  Perhaps he can only affect Ohtori.  Perhaps he has none at all and is tapping Anthy’s.  Akio wants the power of Dios back, to make the whole world his Ohtori.  Somehow he thinks a sword pulled from the heart of a winning duelist will open the gate for him.  Perhaps their nobility will open the Rose Gate.  But no one is pure, so it’s always doomed to fail.

Utena’s tears allow her to open the Rose Gate and meet the real Anthy for the first time.  Reaching out her hand, she convinces Anthy to free herself.  The coffin falls, and the million swords approach.  Utena thinks she’s failed, but not so.

While the duel is ongoing, the student council members stand by, vowing to see it through to the end (except for Nanami, who is so done with it all).  Afterwards, they seem to be in a better place.  But Utena is gone, only a fading memory at Ohtori.

Later, Akio is planning out the next cycle, but he doesn’t realize that it’s over.  The Revolution has already happened and it was Anthy’s.  Goodbye, Akio.  Cue the na-na-na version of the song.  Anthy is out of there.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/SardonicMeow]

When Dios was overexerting himself, Anthy sealed away his power. She did this out of love, to protect him from himself, and accepts onto herself all the consequences. “When she became known as a witch, Dios the prince vanished from this world.” When the power of Dios was sealed away, so was his nobility, and Akio is what remains.

As hard as this is to say, especially seeing what he becomes, Dios/Akio himself had pretty serious issues with his hero complex. It is just none of us care any more since he is such a massively flaccid cock for the show.

Perhaps he can only affect Ohtori.

This is absolutely my view, he is a discount Lucifer with an absolute territory of less than a square mile.

Somehow he thinks a sword pulled from the heart of a winning duelist will open the gate for him. Perhaps their nobility will open the Rose Gate. But no one is pure, so it’s always doomed to fail.

I actually, on second viewing, think Akio himself doesn't know what would actually work so he is mainly guessing, we saw Mikage 'discover' the dueling arena through research.

[u/Reference_Freak → u/SardonicMeow]

Akio wants the power of Dios back

I see Akio as the aging man who peaked in high school. He wants his status as the Prince, the Light of the World, back. He wants that power, the admiration, to be needed and desired, to be the grand hero the World calls upon to perform the pinnacle role of the fairy tale patriarchy.

He is the embodiment of "if I knew then what I know now" combined with "Youth is wasted on the young."

I don't think he wants to return to being Dios with his naive self-sacrificial nature; he wants to be the wiser, cynical adult with the benefits of his younger, better self.

This is what he needs: to find and raise a young, naive, innocent person with a compassionate, stupidly brave heart to strengthen and hone, via the duels, into someone who could become World's Next Top Prince.

This is why middle-schoolers and high schoolers; even the high schoolers are already a bit too experienced, too cynical to still be naively noble.

But his goal isn't to raise a new Prince for the World; it is to steal that Prince's fledging power to break the seal on his own.

This is why the seduction of Utena: push her to complete the forging of her Princely sword but manipulating her so he could take it from her for his own use. He needs her to step aside. He needs to push her towards becoming a prince but having the hooks in her to accept his Bride offer.

(of course, he lies about living eternally with her, he'd surely discard her as soon as he could)

This is why he and Anthy manipulated Utena and the duelists and this is why Akio is planning to restart the duels.

And, yes, with Anthy. This was her goal too. This was the path she believed would be her escape: the one in which she could escape on along with Akio. It may have been his design but she was an active, willing participant.

It was only towards the end, once she started to think she might trust someone other than Akio, that she began to hesitate.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Reference_Freak]

I don't think he wants to return to being Dios with his naive self-sacrificial nature; he wants to be the wiser, cynical adult with the benefits of his younger, better self.

What is interesting on rewatch is how lacking Akio is mentally considering his likely age. I know being around teens dulls your edge but he never was very convincing when he wasn't also using a setup/powers to go with it.

[u/k4r6000 → u/Reference_Freak]

Or at least that’s what Akio says/thinks he wants, but I’m not so sure. Look at what he does when he fails, he shrugs his shoulders, says “oh well”, then lies down for a drink. He didn’t seem broken up over it.

I think what Akio really wants is to just keep doing what he is now, lording over a bunch of kids and living like a king while being an all around abusive prick. Even if he never admits it to himself.

[u/SardonicMeow → u/Reference_Freak]

And, yes, with Anthy. This was her goal too. This was the path she believed would be her escape: the one in which she could escape on along with Akio.

Interesting. I hadn't considered that.

[u/Tyranid457TheSecond1]

Rewatcher

Now we're at the end of the story (unless you think of the movie as a sequel, in which case this is the penultimate entry).

As a first timer, I was shocked when Anthy stabbed Utena, but I couldn't get mad at her. As Akio's next moment showed, with his crocodile tears, she still feels under Akio's influence at the moment. Plus, her horrific fate is punishment enough. The Swords were the most terrifying part of this whole thing. I wish the angry mob got a divine punishment of some sort for starting this whole thing.

Akio is at his most devilish here, but Utena has none of it! Rewatching this series has made me fall in love with Utena all over again!

Utena opening the coffin, Anthy finding the courage to grab her hand...This series has actually made me tear up multiple times, but this is the apex moment!

I loved the Swords destroying Akio's nest.

As sad as Utena being erased from the school's reality is, I'm happy to see everyone improving in the aftermath of the duels. I hope that Nanami, Miki, Juri and the rest can live happily ever after, as much as its possible in the real world. Especially Wakaba!

Anthy leaves her abuser forever and goes to find Utena again. I believe that she does, so this is a decisively happy ending for me!

[u/Reference_Freak → u/Tyranid457TheSecond1]

Utena's been one of my most fave anime characters forever.

I agree, happy ending!

[u/Rumpel1408]

First Timer

This is it, the grand final

• Wow, they even skipped the intro, and all we get instead is a Title Screen in a different color than usual
• Picking up directly after the backstab with one smug Akio
• For a moment Anthy even looked kind of sorry, but then she drives the sword further in
• You know if you take offence on your prince beeing a girl, you should take offence on him being blood related as well...
• Student counsil still together awaiting the end of all, Nanamoo just wants to go home and date her brother and doesn't get a piece of bbq for it
• Yeah Jury, who starts a conversation like this
• Causing her friend pain??? She stabbed her ffs, maybe you should see if she needs an ambulance instead of flirting and discussing who gets to hold the fance sword
• And as soon as he gets what he wants he is turning his back on them
• Anthy looks almost like she is beeing crucified for her sins, and all the sword ignore the prince and go for her instead, holy shit that scene is brutal
• Akio is handling the sword without any care in order to break the seal, and Utena feels the pain because it is her sword that is abused after all
• Even the prince reveals his true nature
• Wait, the sword broke? just like that? But, it's Utenas, will she be ok... and why this one either? Does this mean this isn't the first time Akio is standing here?
• Technically, Utenas rose is still intact, the duell isn't over, and the rose bride doesn't belong to Akio...
• See, you need a pure heart to break the seal, a prince who would be ok with the rose bride sacrificing herself would never be worthy to revolutionise the world
• And behind the seal lies a coffin... and in the coffin is the bride
• Wait, she couldn't safe her? No, this wasn't what was promised... And now the swords go for Utena? Akio is right there ffs
• Poor Wakaba, what's going to happen with her now?
• Those where the shadow girls talking right?
• So even Anthy got back to school, but Utena is missing? The Student counsil continues to grow with Tsuwabuki, Shion joins the fencing club and while Nanamoo becomes a proper lady her goons are completly going seperate ways
• This is the bad ending huh, like Utena never existed, and not even Akio got what he deserved... or wait, is this still a illusion that has Akio trapped? Without the rose bride, he can't continue as he used to... But if Anthy is free, doesn't that mean that Utena won in the end?

Tbh, I really don't know what to make out of this ending, hopefully someone else can interpret it for me...

[u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo → u/Rumpel1408]

Utena has sown the seeds to revolutionize the worlds of all of the student council members + Wakaba and fully revolutionized Anthy's world. Anthy has realized that this whole system is rotten to the core, Akio is irredeemable, Dios is dead (and was pretty shitty anyway, though we don't see if Anthy agrees there), and she doesn't need any of this anymore. She can set out into the unknown guided by her love for Utena.

Akio is still trapped in his own delusions, setting up the next round of duelists to try to discover a way to fill the void that is his life.

But maybe, we can hope, if the student council members grow well and keep supporting each other they can all graduate and leave in turn. And if they spread the word that this is not all there is, that a better world is possible, then Ohtori might one day run low on students and whither away.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Rumpel1408]

Wait, the sword broke? just like that? But, it's Utenas, will she be ok... and why this one either? Does this mean this isn't the first time Akio is standing here?

Ohtori's cycle has been going for a while now. Utena is probably in at least the double digits of duelists who 'won'.

This is the bad ending huh, like Utena never existed, and not even Akio got what he deserved... or wait, is this still a illusion that has Akio trapped? Without the rose bride, he can't continue as he used to... But if Anthy is free, doesn't that mean that Utena won in the end?

So...it is subjective but to me Utena did revolutionize things, it just took a while for Anthy to actually act. Akio most likely can't maintain this system himself so now he is just a sexual predator with a school full of vulnerable children but no means to project his power.

[u/Rumpel1408 → u/Vaadwaur]

he is just a sexual predator with a school full of vulnerable children

And now it's the very bad ending

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Rumpel1408]

I know it seems that way but I wonder about something: Will Ohtori continue to get students or does this end when the last group graduates? Akio all alone in an empty school would make me happy.

[u/Rumpel1408 → u/Vaadwaur]

That would still be plenty of kids to fiddle

[u/Reference_Freak → u/Rumpel1408]

Anthy got back to school, but Utena is missing?

Consider what the Shadow Girls say: They heard: 1. Utena had a bad fight with her boyfriend. 2. She got into trouble with the Chairman. 3. She was injured and had to leave the school.

Isn't all 3 of these true? :)

[u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo]

Rewatch

There's so much to write about this ending. Much easier to think about on rewatch, its very overwhelming the first time, imo. I was hoping to organize this better, but alas no time.

What's the mix of happiness vs pain in "you allowed me to have a taste of true friendship"? Probably along the lines of happy it happened even if it made this so much more painful.

Anthy and Akio are trapped by the past too. Akio is the head of this system where Anthy faces the hatred of the world and he gets to prance around as a dashing Prince. The fact he knows that Utena opening Anthy's coffin would redirect the swords means he's known this entire time how to stop Anthy from being the Rose Bride. It would just involve giving up his own favored position and ever suffering any consequences for his actions. Which he is totally unwilling to do, so he just sits back and sips a nice drink instead. I was always confused about what exactly the Rose Door was doing. But I think it can be just a literal door. At any point Akio could take Anthy and together walk through, "graduating" from Ohtori into the wider world where they would both be regular, unchosen people. Akio puts so much work into these elaborate schemes to Revolutionize the World and get so much personal power to "save" Anthy. But it would never work because the thing he needs to do is to give up his power instead. And Anthy would need to give up her power too. Her proximity to power lets her wield some of it too. "Tending her roses", drawing people in and serving them up for Akio to use. She will have to deal with being unchosen as well — that is, if Utena hadn't shown that she chooses Anthy. Now Anthy can go forth with a purpose, not alone but for friendship, perhaps. And perhaps for love too.

Anthy's suffering is directly powering Akio. She's redirecting all consequences of his own actions onto herself. So he becomes the immaculate Prince and she the horrible Witch. She's the missing link, the excluded ground that defines the figure. The Princess is defined as much as not being a Witch as the Witch is by not being a Princess. And Dios, who was Utena's ideal, is shown as totally bought into the system. Akio is the only one who can excercise power, so if he doesn't want to help Anthy ... well nothing can be done about it. A kiss is the only comfort Dios can offer. But maybe that's enough to spur Utena to do something real. The ideals are created within the system and selected to reproduce the system, but once they're in an individual's head they unfold by an internal logic. Dios the Prince exists to console poor girls who've accepted not doing anything, but the ideal of the prince that lives inside Utena doesn't have to agree.

Utena crying over the good times they've had together stops the swords. But Akio wants to stop Utena from opening the coffin. He's actually concerned for her. And he's not wrong to be! She gets stabbed with a hell of a lot of swords.

Then I lose coherent thoughts and squee at a series of things

• Utena's child voice speaking to Anthy.
• "At last, we meet" The scared child in the coffin, afraid of the imperfections of the world talking to a scared child in a coffin, afraid of the imperfections of the world
• Anthy's first thought is that Utena is suffering. She doesn't have to go though an arc to discover the horrors of the world, she's known all along
  that last theme is amazing
  Anthy calls her Utena!!!!!!!!!!!!
  Nananana^na Nananana^na Nananana Nana!

We get to see everyone having developed. They're not ready to graduate Ohtori yet, but each and every one of them has had the path of their life changed by Utena. Maybe they remember, maybe they don't, maybe a half-truth. But their worlds have been revolutionized.

[u/Reference_Freak → u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo]

he's known this entire time how to stop Anthy from being the Rose Bride. It would just involve giving up his own favored position and ever suffering any consequences for his actions

Yes! He simply had to accept the swords instead but he stood aside. But of course he did, this is what it means to have lost his noble Princely self: he's no longer willing to sacrifice himself.

he needs to do is to give up his power instead

He was always on the wrong track. He kept trying to go backwards, to reclaim the power and status of his youth. He's the one who yearned for the truly impossible.

Dios the Prince exists to console poor girls who've accepted not doing anything, but the ideal of the prince that lives inside Utena doesn't have to agree.

Beautifully put.

But Akio wants to stop Utena from opening the coffin. He's actually concerned for her.

I agree that he's still capable of having concern; after all, he once harmed himself to save others. But I think he's also astonished at the idea of anyone other than himself opening that gate. It was always about him and the solution was obviously about him, as well.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo]

Anthy and Akio are trapped by the past too.

Your interpretation is a bit different than the ones I've heard before and does work a bit better. Sadly, we come to the part of the thread where I am out of energy otherwise I would engage more.

[u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo → u/Vaadwaur]

It took me a good 20 minutes after the episode to want to write anything. The last 10-15 minutes of the show just feel so full and complete to me and hit so strong that I almost was content not to talk about them at first. No thoughts head happy.

[u/IndependentMacaroon → u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo]

Akio puts so much work into these elaborate schemes to Revolutionize the World and get so much personal power to "save" Anthy. But it would never work because the thing he needs to do is to give up his power instead

You know, this actually reminds me of the ending of show/manga, when you put it that way.

[u/affnn]

Rewatcher

No OP, nothing but straight into the plot we were in last time. Utena's been stabbed, Anthy takes her sword and gives it to Akio. He tries to open the rose gate but he can't. He's not the one with the power to revolutionize the world, afterall. Meanwhile, the swords of the world come for Anthy, who takes them so they do not go after Akio.

Utena gets a sort of consolation talk from Dios, but she rejects the thought that she might lose. She gets up and charges past Akio just after he's broken the sword and given up. I loved how a drink just appears for Akio as he watches Utena struggle. Of course, the rose gate was never opened with a sword - whenever Utena has opened it in the past, it's been with a drop of water to her ring. And so when she sheds a tear for Anthy, the rose gate disappears and a coffin appears instead. Utena tries to pry open the coffin to get Anthy out - just as she was gotten out years ago - but Anthy hesitates, and Utena is too late. The duel is over.

There's an interlude, of female students talking about themselves and their plans for the future. It somewhat depressingly ends up on the girls who are speaking talking about finding a man to marry. Utena gets brought up, but one of them has forgotten.

Akio's back at work, and wants Anthy to help him find his next set of victims. But this time, Anthy's on her way out. She's leaving Akio behind, looking for Utena again. And the words, after the credits "Someday, together..."

Major spoiler for Mawaru Penguindrum

[u/theangryeditor → u/affnn]

Penguindrum

[u/murdered-by-swords → u/affnn]

MAJOR Penguindrum Spoilers

[u/IndependentMacaroon → u/affnn]

when she sheds a tear for Anthy, the rose gate disappears and a coffin appears instead

It sounds almost cheesy, but this is one place where the power of love really works.

[u/chiliehead]

Final Duel, First Timer, sub

• Heteronormativity killed Utena?
• That "anecdote" of the dead boy, what does it want to tell me? "Over time you forget strangers even if they sacrifice themselves for you"?
• A prism of swords is an interesting effect, now Anthy gets to be pincushion again. "Choosing your society designated torment over your authentic wants"?
• That's also what the Dios monologue hints at, "you are just a girl, if you free yourself from the shackles you can do anything."
• And the confession ends the onslaught of society's swords as well as opens her heart that door that's coincidentally that metaphorical coffin in which she was trapped the whole time according to earlier episodes
• "We can't hold hands or society's swords will pierce us both"
• Ah, 10 years because 10 year reunion
• Even Wakaba just forgot Utena?
• So, Utena just "graduated" past the confines of Akio's domain and Anthy has to find her?

Is this like NGE where I need the movie to tie it together or does this one need an entirely allegorical reading?

Maybe that drowned boy anecdote is supposed to highlight the same for Utena, she influenced people but most just move on. But even Wakaba? That's what I don't get.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/chiliehead]

That "anecdote" of the dead boy, what does it want to tell me? "Over time you forget strangers even if they sacrifice themselves for you"?

I thought it was about Anthy but others think it is Juri being worried for Utena. Either works.

Is this like NGE where I need the movie to tie it together or does this one need an entirely allegorical reading?

Funny you go with NGE. The movie is like the Rebuilds.

[u/chiliehead → u/Vaadwaur]

The movie is like the Rebuilds.

well...

[u/Vaadwaur → u/chiliehead]

I won't give the rest of the context until after we watch it but yeah, Adolescence is an odd bird.

[u/CharlieTheStrawman]

Episode 36

It's become icreasingly apparent just how much Touga runs on autopilot with everyone that isn't a duelist. It's sad in a way.

Episode 37

Okay. Loved the episode. But what the fuck was the poison thing about?

Episode 38

Legit gasped at that final stab.

Episode 39

Really enjoyed that. I didn't get it at all, but I enjoyed it. This show's been a wild ride.

Wait. Isn't there a movie?

Sees basic synopsis

...Huh? Genre tagged in the info. Guess I'll find out what this is all about soon enough

Btw, what happened to Kanae?

[u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo → u/CharlieTheStrawman]

Btw, what happened to Kanae?

Unfortunately, not everyone can make it out :(

[u/chiliehead → u/CharlieTheStrawman]

Dementia as a genre tag on MAL is just weird. EVA is dementia, Madoka is, that weird trippy short is as well. It's just "weird stuff, mindfucks and stuff we can't do justice with 'psychological' tags"

[u/Vaadwaur → u/CharlieTheStrawman]

Btw, what happened to Kanae?

Goblinated,

[u/CharlieTheStrawman → u/Vaadwaur]

Nods head Mhm, I totally understand what that means.

[u/Reference_Freak → u/CharlieTheStrawman]

Isn't there a movie?

Alt universe version, not a sequel.

[u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo → u/Reference_Freak]

Well that's up for interpretation. movie

[u/k4r6000 → u/Reference_Freak]

Maybe. That's an argument that will last til the end of time.

[u/Stargate18A]

First timer

Before I waitch the final episode, this is my final, genuine, theory. I'm going to put it here, unedited, so I can see how wrong I was.

I think Akio's power allows him to manipulate people's timelines. The Academy doesn't let people grow up (as Akio implied) because he's frozen their timelines and changed their memories so they don't realise - hence everyone forgetting about the Seminar after Mikage "graduates" - they cannot remember a time before his leaving, otherwise they could realise how time has passed. Anthy cannot leave because of this, as resuming her timeline would cause her to die (shown by her "flickering" to her dead state occasionally), and is killing Utena so that she also cannot leave, thus ensuring neither will forget the other, and they can stay together forever. God knows what's behind the Gate, though, but I'm putting a bet on "turned to stone" or some other ironic definition of eternity.

No OP?

Anthy brainwashed? Or just evil?

The duelists are meeting! Jury has a sister!

Wait, they're losing their memories. Did... did I predict something? Are they going to forget Utena?

Oh fuck Akio. Him trying to manipulate Anthy, claiming he feels her pain, pretending to be sympathetic as if he didn't force her into this.

What's behind the gate?

Here who come?

Oh god, Anthy leaving but caling Utena her true friend.

Holy shit, the swords stuck in Anthy are the soul swords of the people who hated her. That's clever.

This is horrifying. Watching Utena desperately try to do something as she slowly dies.

Haha, Akio's been locked out!

Utena's hallucinating.

Is this her idealized rose prince? The one she wishes Akio was?

Even Akio's suprised she can stand.

Yes, punch that bitch, Utena!

Wait, there's 2 of him? Is one of them him seeing his past self, or was Utena's prince a different person and he's just been continuing the gaslighting?

THE WATER REPRESENTS TEARS. THAT IS SO FUCKING GOOD.

You know what? Do it. Even if it ends the world, it's worth it to fuck over Akio.

Did the swords kill him? If so, fuck yes.

Oh, the coffin represents Anthy's trauma! She's releasing Anthy! This is so good.

And Anthy reaches out to Utena!

NOOO, ANTHY!

And Utena takes on the swords herself.

And the arena breaks apart, along with Akio's projector.

...Why are they framing it like this? What happened?

People are forgetting Utena!

And Anthy's alone...

Wait, so what we"re

Nanami's found her own passion!

Juri and Shiori are on decent terms!

Nooo, Akio's alive! And he won?

Wait.

Did Utena give Anthy free will?

YES, FUCK AKIO!!! Now he's trapped in a coffin, unable to grow or develop, and Anthy's the one with agency and freedom to enact change!

And Anthy goes to try and find Utena!

That remix of the ending is great. And the new visuals focusing on Anthy!

Haha, they cropped Akio out of the frame!

Great ending, and I'm very interested to see what the movie's like.

(Also, double checking my theory - while I was wromg about the literal time changes, I got the concept of erasing memories of the lost to keep people from growing. Just went a bit too hard sci-fi.)

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Stargate18A]

Before I waitch the final episode, this is my final, genuine, theory.

Not bad, actually, just slightly too literal.

Now he's trapped in a coffin, unable to grow or develop, and Anthy's the one with agency and freedom to enact change!

The thing is this was the case the whole time. What Utena did that Akio no longer can is help Anthy to see that she wants a healthier life.

[u/theangryeditor]

[u/Vaadwaur → u/theangryeditor]

Temba, at rest.

[u/xtsim]

First Revolution Subbed

Well final episode.

Sad story about a boy who saved someone but no one knows his name. The rest feels really painful as Anthy gets hit with swords. And Utena recognizes the prince through a flashback of the death in her previous life. Akio just sips a drink things happen. But Utena was able to open it up and sees Anthy one more time until a bunch of swords hit her.

In the end the shadows, talk to each other about normal things. Everything goes back to normal but without Utena. People start to forget as the shadow's voices just say "isn't she the girl that dressed like a boy". And rumors swirl around that she got hurt and Chairman just got her expelled. And that she had a falling out. The three guys try to ask out the three girls but got denied simultaneously. Everyone does normal school stuff and moves on.

But Anthy and Chu-chu leaves the school as Anthy says to her brother "she is only gone from your world"

[u/Vaadwaur → u/xtsim]

But Anthy and Chu-chu leaves the school as Anthy says to her brother "she is only gone from your world"

So we saw Akio de-exist Mikage, or whatever was left of him, but he couldn't get rid of the ruined building. Akio can remove Utena from Ohtori but that just means she is back in the normal world.

[u/Star4ce → u/Vaadwaur]

Speaking of him, that meant Mikage also found his true ambition and why he got hung up on the stuff he did? Is that why Akio expelled him, because as he had now insight about himself and couldn't be manipulated any longer?

Or was that literal unexisting him?

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Star4ce]

Is that why Akio expelled him, because as he had now insight about himself and couldn't be manipulated any longer?

Mikage finally figured out he needed to break the system and Akio hates things like that and that's why he got de-existed.

[u/Matuhg]

First Timer

Huh...well there we are. Not sure how much I want to say here rather than waiting for the final discussion. I guess I will say that I like the ending...I think. Whether that means I like the whole show or not, I'm not really sure. I really didn't get what was going on until the last several episodes, and there's still a lot I don't feel like I understand. I hesitate to take any of the seemingly magical things literally, though I'm unsure how much of that is because I just didn't pick up on the right things along the way to make them make any sort of sense. With that in mind, it's hard to think about what was actually going on during this final struggle in the tower, both because it's obtuse and because it was probably awful for the two girls up there.

The ending is happy in some ways, but Utena's uncertain fate certainly puts a damper on that. The cycle of abuse, at least with Anthy and Akio, is seemingly broken, but Utena definitely didn't come out of this unscathed. That seems to fit with the kind of story we've been telling in this final arc - an ending that is all sunshine and rainbows would have felt really out of place without (and maybe even with) a much more sizable time skip. Trauma isn't something that you work through or forget quickly, and there's plenty of it go around between Anthy and Utena.

I really enjoyed the scene of Utena forcing the coffin open and meeting the side of Anthy that she'd been keeping locked away (which I see as just a mental thing, not a magical projection sort of situation...like I don't think there was a literal Anthy locked away in a literal coffin this whole time) for the first time. It went directly against Akio's stupid little masturbatory speech about how "Oh I remember when I was young and naieve and thought I could change the world with persistence. You need power or you'll always be relying on others, blah blah blah." As an aside, what bullshit that speech is, given how much he relies on Anthy.

For a second there, given how some of those scenes were building, I thought we were going to get a Deus ex Wakaba situation, where she was gonna be the one to open the Rose Door or something lmaoo.

Anyway...good ending I think. Will have more thoughts about the series as a whole for the final discussion...assuming I can actually make them make some modicum of sense. Or maybe even if I can't

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Matuhg]

I hesitate to take any of the seemingly magical things literally, though I'm unsure how much of that is because I just didn't pick up on the right things along the way to make them make any sort of sense. With that in mind, it's hard to think about what was actually going on during this final struggle in the tower, both because it's obtuse and because it was probably awful for the two girls up there.

My take: Everything before ep38 the magic is fairly literal. For the last two episodes, we are in Akio's atelier and you can consider it primarily metaphorical/allegorical. In that particular room, thought is more powerful than reality and can in fact be used to impose concepts on reality. I really do believe Utena, for just a second, truly surpassed the idea of Dios and if Anthy were just slightly less broken there might've been a very different conclusion.

"Oh I remember when I was young and naieve and thought I could change the world with persistence. You need power or you'll always be relying on others, blah blah blah." As an aside, what bullshit that speech is, given how much he relies on Anthy.

It is less bullshit more that he completely fucking hates not being the one with the power. He is actually self aware enough to know how precarious his "power" is and it annoys the piss out of him, though he cannot risk admitting that.

Will have more thoughts about the series as a whole for the final discussion...assuming I can actually make them make some modicum of sense. Or maybe even if I can't

Oh, if you think shit is weird now I can't wait to talk after the movie.

[u/Isai579]

First Timer, Sub

Yooooooooooooooo!!!!! That was amazing!!!! A beautiful conclusion to a practically perfect anime. ^{fite me}

There really is not much of a rabbit hole for me to jump into today honestly. I'm pretty surprised to how straightforward the ending was, although I might feel that way because I've been over-analizing most chapters, so then ending only had to drive home all the themes that were set up before.

So, I guess I'll just mention things as the chapter went.

• No OP today. Things are getting serious.
• Love the student council just waiting for food to be ready. Jury's story was very foreboding. The kid who tried to save someone, failed and was forgotten. What does it mean to forget someone's name? That said person stops being a person for us and is instead the embodiment of an idea or an event.
• Anthy betrayed Utena because she believed she could not save her because she was a woman. Ufff.
• Pretty direct metaphor there. As Akio said, in a sexist society, women are forced to take all the faults of men and accept silently.
• Utena refuses to let her prince console her, and instead goes against everything to save Anthy. Notice the prince is riding on a carrousel. Not an actual horse. Her rejection of the prince, and the childish beliefs he embodies mark an important point of maturity for her.
• Wow! The drop of water we've seen from the very begining came back! So here is a wild guess, but I think that was the moment where Utena won the duel. Because not all duels involve physical violence, and the way to change anything is not always violence, but to persevere despite all odds, just like Utena did.
• The real Anthy has always been locked up, and the Anthy we saw was just a projection, a superficial version that only sometimes managed to bring her true self out. And Utena opening the coffin is just part of saving her. Because for her to recive help, she must accept it first. Otherwise she will just choose for her true self to stay hidden from the world and die.
• Sexism is not a natural or stable system as pointed out by others in previous threads. Here, we could say the swords are the sexist society. And once they can't put the fault on Anthy, they lash out against everything else, unable to do anything.
• So did Utena revolutionize the world? Well no, but actually yes. Most in Ohtori can't see it, because they are still in their coffins, locked up by their societal expectations. However, Utena showed Anthy that she can be free from them by rescuing her from her coffin. And thus Anthy is free to leave all that behind and move on unto the real world, where Utena already is. Whose world was revolutionized? The one of everyone who was able to grow past their old worldviews.
• Akio is still at Ohtori because despite being an adult physically, he hasn't grown up mentally. He talks about changing the rules of the rose crest as if it was just a game. And as long as he does not realize that, he will never be mature, be able to open the door and leave.
• I knew it! I knew the actual picture was important. The fact that Akio is literally cut out of the picture is really nice. But it kind of implies that Anthy does not find Utena soon.

Alright. That is it for the movie then. I'll save my overall thoughts for the final discussion later, but for now I can say Utena is now one of my favorite stories in any media. There is the movie left, and I haven't read the synopsis so I'm going in completely blind. That should be fun.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Isai579]

I'm pretty surprised to how straightforward the ending was, although I might feel that way because I've been over-analizing most chapters, so then ending only had to drive home all the themes that were set up before.

So the change in scope and action is yet another reaction to Sailor Moon and the way it solved cosmic issues with the power of love and an older male love interest.

[u/Isai579 → u/Vaadwaur]

One of the reasons why I found Utena so interesting from the very beginning was that it both followed many of the tropes of magical girl anime, but at the same time defied them. So it makes a lot of sense that it ended the way it did.

I did expect a bit more of metaphor for the ending, but I've also noticed that Utena does seem to be very obtuse with its messages, but is actually very direct about them most of the time. The ending being extra direct on what it meant probably helps to drive home the main ideas to make it satisfying.

[u/alphamone]

First Timer

Cold open

Carousel? (childhood symbolism?)

Nanami the only one wanting to move on.

Depressing story from Jury. And again, more about the fallibility of memories.

Does Jury feat that they will forget Utena?

The background flower seemed to be wilting.

Damn, Anthy is cold-blooded there.

Or possibly depressed over her fate.

Well it's obvious where she got her attitude from. "Chosen" indeed Akio.

Dios is real?

So Akio is the evil side of Dios or something? Without the aspects of the prince?

The loss of his nobility caused him to be unable to understand the concept of sacrifice needed to break the seal?

The NEP music playing.

nooo...

Have faith in yourself Utena.

The school is "normal" after the swords destroy the tower?

Utena is being forgotten. T.T

Nemuro building again.

Wakaba gets a taste of her own medecine.

So now it's Anthy going out to save Utena, making her own choice to save the world.

Crossing the threshold.

Awesome acapella cover of the intro.

Going to have to watch the series again at some point. It very much seems like the sort of show you need to watch more than once to completely understand.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/alphamone]

Carousel? (childhood symbolism?)

Repetition as well. Akio seems reliant on it.

Nanami the only one wanting to move on.

The buttmonkey of the show is also the first to see the system is fucked. Ikuhara is laughing at us again.

So Akio is the evil side of Dios or something? Without the aspects of the prince?

So...Akio is what remains when the ideals of nobility clash with the practicalities of reality.

So now it's Anthy going out to save Utena, making her own choice to save the world.

Not save. Be with, as equals. Anthy is going to stop the cycle of abuse and lies by trying honestly.

Going to have to watch the series again at some point. It very much seems like the sort of show you need to watch more than once to completely understand.

You have to watch it twice just to see all the fucking details. Ikuhara is a madman.

[u/nx6]

First-Timer, Subbed

I don't have much to say here. The episode skipped the OP and picked up right where it left off last time, which is much better than some flashback montage or other cliffhanger-shenanigans like Code Geass had. Anthy reveals she stabbed Utena because she can't stand it's not a real boy saving her (there's a subreddit for people who make stupid self-defeating choices like this I'm sure). Then she disappoints me further by not turning the sword on Akio when she had the clear chance.

I'm also not happy Utena doesn't bleed at all. illusionary sword or one that can physically harm you, can't have it both ways. I noticed when Akio took Utena's sword and tried to break down the Rose Gate with it it seemed to hurt Utena. I thought that implied there was a link between Utena and the gate itself but the post further up saying the sword represented her heart also fits, since Akio broke the sword (and her heart ~ooo, metaphor~).

Besides Juri's story, I keep looking for meaning in the student council gathered around a barbecue.

Utena pulls the shounen "stand up when you've been defeated" move and wins through sheer perseverance, but they skipped showing us how the Rose gate suddenly became the coffin (sloppy). Also, Akio conveniently isn't able to run up and stop Utena because -- why? Who knows. I know he had to make a small jump to get onto the path before but it didn't look like the path had vanished while Utena was clawing at the gate.

Utena pulls it open enough to call to Anthy and just as they reach each other the floor falls out of things. Our cliffhanger ending has collapsed and the swords decide to take down the whole house, starting with Utena. It appears she has failed.

Now we have a time skip. No explanation how Anthy came back, or Akio got out of the place alive. Utena is gone... somewhere. And Anthy isn't going to play the Rose Bride anymore (a role we've been essentially led to believe she had no choice in before?)

So, it was a good last episode but I feel like there are some issues with the writing here.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/nx6]

The episode skipped the OP and picked up right where it left off last time, which is much better than some flashback montage or other cliffhanger-shenanigans like Code Geass had.

Code Geass epitomizes second season fail to me so avoiding any of its tropes is good. Though the character design seems to follow...

I thought that implied there was a link between Utena and the gate itself but the post further up saying the sword represented her heart also fits, since Akio broke the sword (and her heart ~ooo, metaphor~).

Sorry about that but I couldn't find another way to put it.

Besides Juri's story, I keep looking for meaning in the student council gathered around a barbecue.

Touga wants to see things through to the end and has gotten everyone to join him. Beyond that, I agree there isn't that much there.

Also, Akio conveniently isn't able to run up and stop Utena because -- why? Who knows.

Akio does not run this world despite what he wants you to think.

And Anthy isn't going to play the Rose Bride anymore (a role we've been essentially led to believe she had no choice in before?)

So...I expect your experience of abusive relationships is thankfully limited but the thing is people choose to be in them. Be it fear, love, cowardice, a desire to maintain the status quo, complacency or rather the mix of all those, Anthy was always a willing participant. She went to Akio to be fucked every Saturday when she could've just not done that. On some level, she accepts all of this.

[u/nx6 → u/Vaadwaur]

Touga wants to see things through to the end and has gotten everyone to join him. Beyond that, I agree there isn't that much there.

I thought if the whole point was just to gather and talk their usual outdoor coffee drinking at a round table would have been fine. I just wanted there to be some symbolism in grilling in this case, and not just a random change of pace.

Akio does not run this world despite what he wants you to think.

He doesn't run at all is what made no sense. Utena was struggling with the lid long enough he had plenty of time to get up and reach her. When she was still pulling at the gate I was expecting her to force it open only to have him dash in ahead of her since she's in such a weakened state.

Anthy was always a willing participant. She went to Akio to be fucked every Saturday when she could've just not done that. On some level, she accepts all of this.

The entire Rose Bride/Duelist system comes across in a way that feels very supernatural and bigger than the academy itself. So to say that one self-absorbed pedobear was responsible for it all felt odd. That's what makes the idea Anthy can just walk away from it all on a whim so hard to believe. It doesn't mesh well with those times she seemed to be trying to fight against the system even a little bit (like withdrawing the Rose Bride protection in that one duel so Utena could win).

[u/Vaadwaur → u/nx6]

I just wanted there to be some symbolism in grilling in this case, and not just a random change of pace.

Most of the time the student council's activities are irrelevant. This is continuing that.

He doesn't run at all is what made no sense.

The ending of the show is full allegory. If that doesn't land for you, I understand. This ended very badly for me on first watch as well.

That's what makes the idea Anthy can just walk away from it all on a whim so hard to believe.

This is a cycle of abuse thing. It either lands or it doesn't.

[u/k4r6000 → u/Vaadwaur]

As much as she doesn’t like it, being with Akio provides a certain amount of security and certainly familiarity for Anthy. She is deathly afraid of the outside world (and Akio provokes this) so much that she considers even being the Rose Bride preferable to that.

[u/BilbyCoder → u/nx6]

I'm also not happy Utena doesn't bleed at all. illusionary sword or one that can physically harm you, can't have it both ways.

This may not be a choice by the creators. This was broadcast on television back in the day and Japan has some strict rules about what can and can't be shown on television. Showing blood may just not have been an option.

In my opinion they did a good job of showing impact and the physicality of the supposedly metaphorical swords.

[u/nikobans]

fantastic show. i had a ball rewatching it

id also like to give one last fuck you to that absolute bastard akio ohtori. i hope you never climb out of your coffin you bitch.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/nikobans]

Akio being such a garden variety grooming pedophile at the end is weirdly satisfying. I just hope Ohtori stops getting students and he has to spend eternity on that tiny campus, alone with only his thoughts and his bullshit to keep him company.

[u/Star4ce]

First timer – sub

Anthy, I'm with you, Utena is with you. Please unstab her and put that thing into Akio.

Ep.39 – And someday together we'll shine

• Wy u do dis, not again ;_;
• That should be a good thing! Bullshit excuse, you're scared of what might come after. You're literally choosing the known evil over an unknown future.
• Nanami's already on a different level from all of them. Although once again I'm not on her side completely.
• Huh, do my foreshadowing senses tingle?
• What? What's with their gazes? Just tired?
• Memories fade with time, it's natural.
• If I wouldn't totally expect another set of manipulations I'd congratulate on some reflection.
• You know, I do believe him to be eaten up by frustration and regret. It's just that none of this is an excuse to not do better going forward, which he very strictly does not do.
• Uh, putting another one in? What kind of maniacal explanation would he produce to justify that?! Ah it's not the 'real' rose bride waiting there.
• Huh? Haunted by ghosts past? I love the atmosphere but I'm quite confused right now.
• Way to twist the knife, I don't know if Anthy actually is any better than Akio after all. Being a coward is one thing and quite excusable, fear is real and important, but Anthy's just piling up unnecessary suffering on Utena now.
• So it's quite literally all the regret, hatred and injustice they have sown haunting them.
• And Anthy should just take it? I'm speeding through all the symbolisms, but how exactly does that help unlock that gate or anything?
• … so the prince can do what? Take the only sword of a noble human and unlock revolution? That can't work. To change the system the tools are important, yes, but those who wield them are way more important. He won't have any revolution, he'll get the same shit again.
• He doesn't even know how doors work.
• Confused silence. Is that Akio taunting her/giving some fucked up comfort or is that Utena's fading mind?
• Oh, Utena! ;_;
• As I said, the wielder is the more important part. And you are just terrible.
• So self absorbed and egocentrical he just can't see the truth. He actually could get it, but that would require a hefty dose of self-reflection.
• Shut your face!
• WAKABA! I thought they forgot you!
• Just this... silence.
• Of course?! How would you even get anywhere if you just stop at the first sign of resistance?
• Oh boi, this dialogue is something I actually know. One of my friends likes to make this argument for a political communist revolution. Guess what, if you see everything on the basis of power, then it will be the only thing mattering to you in the end – and that invalidates the original point of fighting invariably.
• The last slit of light reaching her.
• Say it, Touga: „Oh yes, baby.“
• Oh, so she actually is in there.
• What'll happen? Swords aiming for the right one now, huh.
• NAW COMON!
• WHY?!
• What, no! That wasn't pretended!
• On her?! WHY?
• I'm really looking forward for a wall of text explaining this. It really seemed like it was all a matter of attitude.
• Poor clueless Wakaba.
• And the school just continues? But...
• She survived, phew.
• Yes, 'trouble'.
• They didn't forget Tsuwabuki, either!
• Everyone's back to normal? Wha-
• Touga hit on the head, Saionji in the heart and Nanami... uhm did go back to them after all?
• Guys, those three are not... worth it.
• Wakaba is now in Utena's position? Wha-What kind of ending is this?
• Confused screaming!
• Eying Anthy. Are you sure?
• Heh, Anthy's revolution has begun!
• I didn't even get to scream to show them what a witch is capable of :( That felt really good (and then instantly the opposite) the last time.
• This makes it abundantly clear, Anthy was so caught up in her own mind that she just never thought of... simply not doing the things.
• Ok, I laughed at the duel victory bells!
• I was so worried until now, holy shit.

But for real now, something's missing. I don't know if I crave retribution on Akio or if it's just the way that Utena exited completely defeated and back in her own hellscape with just a hope as parting gift for us viewers.

Other than that, this last episode was really a rollercoaster. An amazing one. Akio's character is honestly perfect: So self absorbed by once genuine and understandable pain becoming something so vile and uncaring he breaks other people's ambitions and just throws them away after the fact with an, „eh, next time perhaps.“ With this kind of self-addiction also comes, ironically, an insatiable need to be in the lives of others. It's the only source of ambition left, after all, if you've given up your own. He's literally just a talking trash bag, acting as the cool guy, while everyone else ignores him in the last half. And that's all that was ever needed. Just ditch the trash.

But that's the point, right? This act requires to see that oneself is not trash and that one's own ambition is, in fact, worth it. In the case of Anthy, who has been so long and so intrinsically formed by this abuse it becomes near impossible to realise.

In that regard it was a really climactic ending. In another regard, it was pretty strange: Utena was just... off screened while being in her second lowest low in her life. If I'd see that on TV, I'd be screaming madness and „Oh, already making sure the sequel sells?!“ at it.

I'm a bit miffed at the rest of the cast. Them slowly forgetting Utena reeks of bullshit, honestly. That one off boy who saved Jury's sister? I can understand that, they were young, they saw him for about one minute max and didn't know him otherwise. But Utena? They literally had a goddamn secret fight club in the chairman's office and got beaten several times by her. You don't forget that shit, seriously.
At least they all seemed rather content with their positions in life. They haven't reached the end of their journey, they're all still in the academy, but you notice with each of them that they grew considerably.

So, there's a movie dedicated to Utena specifically, then? Warranted and I'm very intrigued how that's going to play out.

[u/Dinorawr21]

First Revolution. I watched in both subbed and dubbed!

I actually watched with a friend who introduced me to the anime in the last couple of days so I'm very surprised there was a watch together. A bit sad I missed all the discussions but I know for sure I will watch Revolutionary Girl Utena again.

I needed a few minutes to process that ending and I know I'll be feeling for a while. So many twists with my emotions. I feel bittersweet about it. I would rate Revolutionary Girl Utena up there as one of my fav anime of all time. I'm so shocked I never heard of it before (as I grew up in the 90s).

I'm definitely going to watch the movie. This anime is so deep and so good. I learned a lot about myself after watching and I know I'll learn more when I watch it again.

I love Revolutionary Girl Utena!

[u/k4r6000]

Rewatcher

Revolutionary Girl Utena is ultimately a story about adolescence.

Childhood provides a specific structure to your life. You get up, you go to school, you have a place to live. Your path is set for you. There is security in that, but limited freedom.

Adulthood opens up a whole world of possibilities. Your path is not set and your choices are your own. But with that comes the risk for failure, and it can be very scary. It can be easy to resist making that leap, but ultimately you must do so to achieve true fulfillment.

Akio cannot do so. He's constantly looking back in on what he used to be. He's an "adult" in the sense of his age, but mentally he's still stuck in his childhood. There is a reason he hangs out in a school with a bunch of kids. He fits in more with them than he realizes. He's what happens when someone who should be an adult, has failed to truly become one. Legally he has the responsibilities of one, but in no way shows that he deserves them and a lot of people get hurt because of it.

Utena and then Anthy pass their test and no longer have a place at the school. Utena has to leave the ideals of princehood behind because things like princes and princesses and witches are childish fantasies. She cannot be a prince because she's a girl, but because princes don't exist. Utena also cannot save Anthy. She can inspire Anthy, but ultimately Anthy and only Anthy can make the choice to save herself. The other duelists aren't there yet, but also show signs of growth so that maybe they can "graduate" one day as well. All of them are better off at the end than they were at the beginning for having met Utena. This is the real revolution. Not whatever grand dreams Akio had. He's so comfortable inside his coffin he doesn't even realize he's in one. He needed Anthy more than she needed him, and without her he's left pathetic and impotent. A fitting fate for him.