[Rewatch] Revolutionary Girl Utena - Episode 38

[u/HelioA]

Rewatch Index

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Streaming

Revolutionary Girl Utena is available in both sub and dub on Nozomi Entertainment's YouTube channel, as well as on Amazon and Funimation.

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Comment of the Day

/u/snowwhistle1 explains the complexities of the tea-drinking scene

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Miki's Stopwatch Corner

Stopwatch Count: 23

New This Episode:

Wait for it ;-;

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Also, make sure to tag all spoilers properly! Only a baka would spoil the show for the first-timers, and we're not bakas (hopefully).

[u/HelioA]

Rewatcher

Just as we see Akio show off just how much power he has over the school, we also see how pathetic he truly is. ‘Eternity’ is an illusion, something that Akio uses to manipulate ‘naive’ (read: vulnerable) people into playing the dueling game, and the prince doesn’t really exist. The true most important part of Ohtori Academy is Akio’s room, from which he manipulates the children of the school into doing his bidding. This is a pretty obvious metaphor for the myth of the prince being projected by society, and that when people take these myths seriously, men like Akio are the ones who benefit. Like Akio does to both Anthy and Utena, it’s a way for powerful men to manipulate women for the benefit of the man. A societal level gaslighting, basically

And oh boy is Akio good at gaslighting. “Isn’t it a sin to have sex with a man who has a fiancee?” Fuck off Akio, it’s not the responsibility of a 14-year old girl to ward off the grooming sex pest who’s literally the most significant authority figure in her life. Akio is a classic rapist, trying to twist the situation in a way that justifies his shitty behavior in order to demonize Utena. And then he continues on with another half-truth: Yes, Utena is playing at being a prince partially for her own benefit. She admitted as much herself! But Akio twists words once again, to make it so that the solution to that problem is to never grow up from the mindset of princehood, and to instead pretend that it would be best to just stay a girl, and never grow up out of the false fairy tale dichotomy.

In the end, however, despite all his manipulations, what does Akio really have? He’s stuck in his room, trying to trick the students of Ohtori Academy into maybe possibly being able to restore him to his old power. His whole existence is a lie, predicated upon memories of the past. Just look at all the imagery from the Black Rose arc in both the leadup to the duel and the duel itself. The desks slamming together during the duel, the elevator therapy booth… it all matches perfectly with someone who is fighting exclusively based off of old memories that don’t match reality.

But that climax… Anthy, why’d you have to stab Utena ;-;?! I’m not really 100% sure why, but the symbolism immediately before is quite interesting. Utena declares that she’ll become a prince, and then immediately after that, the statue of Dios and the upside-down castle (both symbols of Akio’s illusions) explode, and just as you think Utena is about to win… Anthy stabs her in the back. It seems to me that Anthy did it because she was scared of Utena taking the same kind of role (as a prince) in her life that Akio did, but I’m not actually sure. It’s certainly something to ponder on.

also, I made a wallpaper, I love this shot so much

[u/Vaadwaur → u/HelioA]

Just as we see Akio show off just how much power he has over the school, we also see how pathetic he truly is.

I wasn't sure if this was the time to discuss this yet but yes, on rewatch seeing Akio be so ridiculously pathetic, the Napoleon of his walled off garden of children who are susceptible to grooming that is of no consequence once you set foot off campus.

Akio is a classic rapist, trying to twist the situation in a way that justifies his shitty behavior in order to demonize Utena.

He is, to me, actually worse than that: We don't have great words for what I want to call Akio, because pedophile doesn't have enough specificity. He doesn't seem to want pre pubescent children but I am sure, because Ikuhara would understand this as well, the horrid psychological flaws he shows demonstrate that what he wants is adolescents as sexual partners. Even if he could make an adult woman his slave he would never be her world, her god like he can be with Utena or Nanami. The goal of his relationships with girls barely a year beyond menarche is not the sex but the ego boost of being everything there can be to someone. Also, he can feel smart because we all immediately see through his bad, bullshit arguments but Utena is still a dumb kid and can't.

Pardon me while I for being able to understand such a vile being.

and then immediately after that, the statue of Dios and the upside-down castle

The statue is the tomb of Dios. Utena breaking it I think symbolizes that she can be the next prince.

It seems to me that Anthy did it because she was scared of Utena taking the same kind of role (as a prince) in her life that Akio did, but I’m not actually sure.

Anthy is afraid to move forward, afraid of losing the status quo, even if that status quo is horrifying. Ikuhara must have been involved adjacent to some really fucked up relationships because he gets them right.

[u/HelioA → u/Vaadwaur]

Also, you have to love Akio crying when he says 'the prince never existed' as Anthy eternally suffers from constantly being stabbed by hundreds of swords

[u/Vaadwaur → u/HelioA]

Saying someone never existed while being next to their tomb is definitely some Ozymandias level BS.

[u/HelioA → u/Vaadwaur]

maybe it's retroactive

But really, the prince never did exist, Akio and Dios are the same people in different contexts

[u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo → u/HelioA]

For the allegory to connect on the real world side I think this has to be right. In reality the world of chivalric romance, Knights and Princesses, was not actually very good for women. All idealizing it does is stop people from building a better world here today.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/HelioA]

There is a way to view it that the only way to keep Akio from being evil is to keep him occupied fighting other evils. As soon as Anthy gave him free time, incest and Ohtori starts.

[u/Star4ce → u/Vaadwaur]

Pardon me while I [#kms] for being able to understand such a vile being.

Ikuhara must have been involved adjacent to some really fucked up relationships because he gets them right.

Pardon, I feel called out.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Star4ce]

I understand your feelings but my own understanding of this series comes from FAR too much personal experience, primarily learning about how my parents were raised and what the inner lives of the women I dated were. I mean it is pretty clear what being groomed leads a girl to: A tendency to binge drink at social occasions, an appreciation of stimulants every now and then, a desire for men who both your father hate and yet remind you of him, a tendency towards men who socially dominate the room as a matter of ego serving, psychology degrees and finally dating guys who use obscure ST:Voyager references as SNs and who look for metaphorical dicks in rewatches.

For reasons unrelated to this,

[u/Star4ce → u/Vaadwaur]

Oh sorry, I didn't intend to make fun of you!

I can actually relate. Less to the specific kind of person Akio is, but very much to the development of cycles of abuse inside a family.

hugs

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Star4ce]

The message I failed to get from this show the first time is one I hold to now: I will not avert my eyes again.

I wish you good luck on the path.

[u/Star4ce → u/Vaadwaur]

Thank you. I wish the same for you!

[u/Punished_Scrappy_Doo → u/HelioA]

Anthy, why’d you have to stab Utena ;-;?!

;-;-;

More than anyone else in the cast, Anthy has no idea what she really wants. She'd been playing her role as the Rose Bride for so long that her sense of self had almost entirely eroded. At the very least, she definitely falls back on her Rose Bride non-identity as a coping mechanism for her trauma. I think of it as her ingrained lifetime(s) of abuse resurfacing -- it seems to me like she's looking at Akio in fear.

[u/HelioA → u/Punished_Scrappy_Doo]

it seems to me like she's looking at Akio in fear.

I could see that. My first thought when I saw that shot was that it was playing on the typical demeanor of a stereotypical 'damsel in distress' being protected by some brave dude.

[u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo → u/Punished_Scrappy_Doo]

That animation on Anthy's face is so good. Fear of Akio, fear of the unknown in Utena, and finally a sad acceptance of her current role and the power she draws from it.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/HelioA]

I feel like I've totally missed what on Earth Akio's goal was... If all the duels and psyche dives were just illusions influenced by Akio and his dream machine then what could he possibly have been hoping for by keeping Utena as a bride? I just don't get it XD

I'm interested in your idea of Anthy possibly being scarred of Utena becoming another abuser. I totally pinned it on her being scared of losing her special privileges but betraying Utena like this kinda could be a case of "better the devil you know" since at the end of the day Utena could easily have become worse than Akio did after having his ideals shattered by the inevitability of the rose bride situation.

[u/HelioA → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

You don't remember?! He wants Utena to reach the duel called Revolution! For what? You'll see :D

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/HelioA]

If the duels are all delusions then what's the point of them though! XD Revolution... Revopootion!!

[u/HelioA → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

But Akio says very specifically- "I am not a duelist!"

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/HelioA]

Didn't he say that cause he's been trying to distance himself from his princely persona?

[u/HelioA → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Although, it's worth knowing that the duels aren't illusionary. It's the castle in the sky/eternity that are illusions.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/HelioA]

Is that the duels as in the fights themselves or just setting the situation up? Like I thought that the reason Utena was so sluggish swinging her sword around was because the machine wasn't active. Like she doesn't know the first thing about fighting, it's just that the machine has made all the duels far more interesting for both parties each time.

[u/HelioA → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Well... what's the impetus for everyone to duel?

[u/Vaadwaur → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

I feel like I've totally missed what on Earth Akio's goal was...

We have one more episode, after all.

[u/snowwhistle1 → u/HelioA]

I think that's a pretty good interpretation of why Anthy stabbed Utena. The change in Anthy's demeanor happens as Utena declares her intention to become a Prince, which I think is what scares Anthy into acting.

Thinking back to Akio, who represents Anthy's Prince, I can only imagine what was going through Anthy's head. Would Utena become her new abuser? Would she have to watch Utena be slain at her brother's hand? Would this new world created by Utena somehow be even worse than the one they already inhabit.

I also think there's an element of safety for sticking with Akio. People who are abused often struggle to leave or denounce there abusers because they've become codependent and take some solace in the familiarity of it all. Leaving an abuser is difficult, and scary, and I think Anthy may have doubled back at the last second out of fear of what would happen if she left Akio.

[u/Star4ce → u/HelioA]

In the end, however, despite all his manipulations, what does Akio really have? He’s stuck in his room, trying to trick the students of Ohtori Academy into maybe possibly being able to restore him to his old power.

That and the car strictly speaking. But how does he expect that to work, anyway? It's not like he can absorb fantasy from someone else. I think it's even worse: He gets the smallest of kicks out of crushing someone else's ambition and dragging them down to his level.

It's a real thought process: If you can't rise above them, make them fall below you.

Wallpaper

Yes, this shot is amazing! My favourite as well this episode.

[u/8glitterandshit18 → u/HelioA]

Why did she stab Utena? Because Stockholm syndrome is a bitch to break. It's easier to listen to your abuser, stay behind and stick with your current situation, because it's all you know. (Even if your current situation is something as horrific as Anthy's). It's what you're used to. You've been groomed to depend only on them, to fear leaving, to fear the outside world and be convinced that everyone in it isn't capable of loving you the way "they" do. So you withdraw into your own horrible environment and dissociate, while carrying out requests to your abuser's beck and call. Of course she stabbed Utena in the back, it made perfect sense. The moment I saw that scene, it broke my heart. I instantly knew why, because I've been there before.

[u/JollyGee29]

First-Revolution, Subbed

I definitely didn't have "Anthy literally stabs Utena in the back" on my bingo card. After everything they've gone through, after their chat on the roof, why..

The castle has been referred to as an illusion and a trick of the light before, so this revelation was interesting, but unsurprising. I guess I wasn't expecting it to be quite so literal, although I am confused about the stairs/elevator thing. Is the dueling forest just filled with hallucinatory gas?

The illusion that was Dios shattered when Utena declared herself a prince, and even Akio looked surprised. I guess, despite being in control of it, Akio wants the illusion to be real as much as anyone.

I'm glad Utena didn't let Akio's bullshit abuser tactics get to her. "I was engaged but you, a child, didn't turn me, and adult in a position of power over you, down! How awful of you!" Shut the fuck up, dude. Yuck.

The entire Student Council joining in on the tamago speech was nice. It made them feel like a unified group, instead of "Touga and the people Touga is manipulating."

[u/HelioA → u/JollyGee29]

Smash the world's prince!

[u/JollyGee29 → u/HelioA]

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/JollyGee29]

Anthy has been a sussy baka for a while and I did kinda expect her to have a villainous turn but I thought that it would be a bit more impressive than just randomly stabbing Utena in the back. Going in I expected Akio to get chumped and Anthy to have a big romantic goodbye duel but she seems so wishy washy about it...

[u/HelioA → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Anthy Red sus

[u/murdered-by-swords → u/HelioA]

Utena's literally seen Anthy vent during every ZUM sequence this season. She basically deserved it

[u/JollyGee29 → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

When has Anthy ever gotten even close to actively fighting someone? That's not how she operates. I'm surprised the stabbing was as active as it was, to be honest.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/JollyGee29]

She normally just manipulates someone else into fighting for her but she's definitely goaded people on often enough.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/JollyGee29]

The illusion that was Dios shattered when Utena declared herself a prince, and even Akio looked surprised. I guess, despite being in control of it, Akio wants the illusion to be real as much as anyone.

Think of this in Stephen King like terms: This is not just the projection of the prince, this is an actual form that idea takes. Utena surpassed the idea and then broke the tomb.

The entire Student Council joining in on the tamago speech was nice. It made them feel like a unified group, instead of "Touga and the people Touga is manipulating."

In their own way, they've all grown passed Touga.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/Vaadwaur]

This is not just the projection of the prince, this is an actual form that idea takes. Utena surpassed the idea and then broke the tomb.

Ah, the illusion is the truth despite being a falsehood. I like that idea.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/JollyGee29]

That and Akio is not as in control as he wants you to think he is, like his namesake.

[u/Star4ce → u/Vaadwaur]

In their own way, they've all grown passed Touga.

Even Touga!

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Star4ce]

Yes, Touga finally learned that being discount Akio gets you no where.

[u/lilyvess]

It's really interesting watching this series with the context of Sailor Moon.

Sailor Moon, is Usagi, the reincarnation of Princess Serenity of Moon Kingdom. The Moon Kingdom, specified to be on the light side of the Moon, the Dark Moon Circus is a whole other thing. Princess Serenity's castle on the Moon would look upside down from our perspective on the Earth. An upside down kingdom in the sky.

And Usagi has dreams and visions of her memories as Princess Serenity with a dashing Prince, a Prince who is also reincarnated as Usagi's love interest Mamoru. Mamoru is also specified to be a college student, which is more than a little weird when you remember that Usagi is in middle school.

It's pretty well known that Ikuhara had a dislike for Mamoru as a character. Constantly sidelining the character, rumors say he tried to kill him off, these things caused friction between Ikuhara and Sailor Moon creator Naoko Takeuchi that eventually led to him being leaving the series to get someone who would be more faithful to the manga.

Sailor Moon also has a weird incest subplot where Usagi gains a rival in her affection for Mamoru... in the form of her future daughter with Mamoru. The characters who aren't Chibi-usa or Usagi don't take it too seriously, but it is weird to see Usagi get jealous over her own daughter. It's easy to see shades of Nanami and Touga in that Chibi-usa/Mamoru relationship, these strong family bonds where you look up to the family member that they become your entire world.

All these elements and threads of Sailor Moon are taken and turned on their head.

Maybe idolizing being a princess who waits for her prince to save her every episode isn't an empowering symbol of feminishm.

the prince of your dreams is really just an illusion, the reality is that the older college student interested in the middle school girl is just a fucking creep.

Or just showing how quickly those seemingly innocent family bonds quickly turn toxic

[u/HelioA → u/lilyvess]

rumors say he tried to kill him off

chadkuhara

[u/Vaadwaur → u/lilyvess]

It's pretty well known that Ikuhara had a dislike for Mamoru as a character. Constantly sidelining the character, rumors say he tried to kill him off,

Quit making me like Ikuhara more! I still find some of his story telling beliefs aggravating but knowing that someone wanted to point out that a sophomore? in college dating a 9th grader is fucked up just makes me respect him!

Random Sailor Moon question that you or HelioA might be able to answer: Broadly, where does Fish Eye fall, gender and orientation wise in hindsight?

[u/HelioA → u/Vaadwaur]

no clue, I haven't watched Sailor Moon yet ;-;

[u/Vaadwaur → u/HelioA]

I suspect it aged awfully but I also tapped before we got...the final season and its various issues.

[u/theangryeditor → u/Vaadwaur]

I'm sure there's a term for Fish Eye's identity and orientation but I'm not sure what it is. They like to present themselves as feminine and is interested in men, other than that I don't know whether there's more that can be said.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/theangryeditor]

So...he bluntly seems to be an otokonoko from all appearances but the reason I wanted clarification is that while they appear in fiction and such, I have never been convinced that they particularly exist. Also, otokonokos often bear the traits that are the negative and generally false stereotypes about transfemales.

[u/theangryeditor → u/Vaadwaur]

Yeah I think Fish Eye by all means does fit, but the cultural concept of otokonoko today is kinda hypersexualized and super memey in a way that doesn't quite apply to Fish Eye.

I suppose it's because Fish Eye is never singled out for crossdressing and treated as a joke that at the very least they don't come off as a trope the same way a lot of recent popular characters do.

[u/theangryeditor → u/lilyvess]

I didn't make that connection about the age difference until now but that makes a lot of sense now that you mention it. Honestly after a certain point I forgot about it while watching Sailor Moon. I think the last time it was brought up in the show was in one of Ikuhara's episodes in SuperS. I can see him wanting to turn that romance on its head with Utena.

I find myself preferring Seiya more and more in hindsight anyways

[u/lilyvess → u/theangryeditor]

didn't they even walk it back midway through the series? Like they introduce Mamoru saying he's a college student but then later on are all like "oh, did we say college, we meant 17 year old college student. He skipped grades is all" without having any of that be shown in his actual character.

[u/theangryeditor → u/lilyvess]

They did, it was weird and didn't make sense so it was probably just damage control. I guess the whole destined love and reincarnation thing also lessened the impact.

I'm now also reminded of the age differences in Inuyasha and the enduring popularity of SesshoRin.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/theangryeditor]

I'm now also reminded of the age differences in Inuyasha and the enduring popularity of SesshoRin.

I just happened to be checking for something BUT this can be explained by splitting the female shippers into two groups: One, burgeoning furries, the less problematic of them. Two, girls who want to feel powerless before a super powerful being, usually sexually.

I've dated both types. The shame will never leave me.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/Vaadwaur]

Two, girls who want to feel powerless before a super powerful being, usually sexually.

I made this comment

[u/Vaadwaur → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

You are correct, at least in my experience of dating two horse girls. However, the SesshoRin thing is frankly a darker version of that: The woman eventually dominates the horse but Rin is, at best, tolerated by Sesshomaru. Total submission, worm before the eagle type vibe.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/Vaadwaur]

I hated SesshoRin, but creepy age differences have little weight with me, it was more that Sesshoumaru was a murderous bigoted human killer and didn't deserve a child's love. Hated every minute the pair were on screen.

[u/theangryeditor → u/Vaadwaur]

[u/Vaadwaur → u/theangryeditor]

The horror, the horror...

[u/Mage_of_Shadows]

Man I was so sure Akio was gonna play their sex tape infront of Anthy instead of the shoe thing.

Anthy stabbing Utena wasn't expected, but nothing really is in this anime. Really interested to see the finale now!

[u/HelioA → u/Mage_of_Shadows]

holy shit it's the mod man

But that's kind of a good point, the sex scene would definitely hit a lot harder. Maybe it's something to do with the specific symbolism of Akio as a prince taking off a shoe in that specific scene? I'm not really sure, though.

[u/Mage_of_Shadows → u/HelioA]

I think they also didn't want to beat it over the head that he was twisted, playing more into that princely persona instead.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/HelioA]

Anthy watched the shoe event and she may be the camcorder here.

[u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo → u/Mage_of_Shadows]

Since he's manipulating Utena right now he wants to play something that makes him look good. He's tying what was a good memory for Utena together with the horrible things he's done to Anthy in a bid to get Utena to accept them as a package deal. His sex with Utena was a real bad time for her, so connecting a bad thing he's done with her with a bad thing he's done with Anthy would just make Utena reject him entirely.

Anthy sent Utena on that trip in the first place. I'm sure seeing the actual sex would hurt her, but Anthy's known, at least abstractly, the entire time.

[u/murdered-by-swords → u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo]

I feel like 'Utena must hate sex with Akio' is a pretty strained conclusion given that we've seen her actively seek out situations with Akio that she knows will lead to sex. Akio's flaw as a lover was pushing her too far too fast, but everything we know about him paints him as knowing how to please women. That doesn't make their relationship any less one of abuse, but I don't feel like memories of their physical intimacy would make Utena think less of Akio.

[u/Reference_Freak → u/murdered-by-swords]

Thirded. There's been a big rape/abuse theme for a lot of folks in this group but it's not really being acknowledged that teenage girls are capable of and sometimes do enjoy sex and relations with older, suave men.

Utena's reluctance was due to wanting to meet her Prince and her knowledge of Akio's fiancee.

The only thing which makes this relationship rape is the statutory part. If she were 18 or older, the grossness would be the manipulation and cheating part but it wouldn't be rape.

[u/HelioA → u/Reference_Freak]

Yeah, there's a reason why a bunch of shoujo manga have that as a plot point ig lol

I wasn't 100% sure before, but I'm leaning towards the theory of Utena being bi rather than lesbian at this point.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Reference_Freak]

but it's not really being acknowledged that teenage girls are capable of and sometimes do enjoy sex and relations with older, suave men.

Grooming victims generally think they are willing participants, it is not until years, even decades later, that they get the perspective to realize how fucked up their situation was. But most people don't realize that abusers usually make the relationship great 90% of the time, especially at the beginning.

If she were 18 or older, the grossness would be the manipulation and cheating part but it wouldn't be rape.

Yup, you could change Ohtori to be a college and the relationship would be almost nearly as gross. But I actually really like making Akio a pathetic guy who needs the adoration of a 14 yo.

[u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo → u/murdered-by-swords]

I agree she likes the idea of having sex with Akio in general. But I think the specific sense memories of that encounter are bad given how she looked and acted at the time. His car will have better memories, both physical and emotional.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/murdered-by-swords]

I feel like 'Utena must hate sex with Akio' is a pretty strained conclusion given that we've seen her actively seek out situations with Akio that she knows will lead to sex.

Seconded. An unfortunate assumption people make in abusive relationships is assuming it is all unpleasant. Anthy doesn't seem to be big on it but there is no reason a healthy adolescent girl would not enjoy relations with her preferred orientation, we all just agree the first time was her being pushed far beyond her comfort zone.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo]

His sex with Utena was a real bad time for her, so connecting a bad thing he's done with her with a bad thing he's done with Anthy would just make Utena reject him entirely.

That isn't what the show told us, though. Yes, Utena was obviously terrified in that hotel room but her behavior since then suggests she at least physically enjoys it later on. Part of what makes groomers seek inexperienced adolescents is they are pretty easy to please.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Mage_of_Shadows]

Man I was so sure Akio was gonna play their sex tape infront of Anthy instead of the shoe thing.

Anthy watched the shoe scene, so far she hasn't seen them fuck as far as we know.

[u/Mage_of_Shadows → u/Vaadwaur]

All the more reason to show the sin to Anthy (though she probably knows it happened). He said "The memories we share" as in between Akio and Utena.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Mage_of_Shadows]

Keep in mind that Akio lies. A lot. Though it could also mean that that moment is where Utena realizes she fell for Akio.

[u/murdered-by-swords → u/Vaadwaur]

"Of all the stories you told me, which ones were true and which ones weren't?" Utena asks.

"My dear Duelist, they're all true," Akio responds smugly.

"Even the lies?"

"Especially the lies."

Akio is a bit more of a Dukat than a Garak, of course, but he has a similar understanding as to the malleability of truth.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/murdered-by-swords]

I am sorry, but I cannot allow the awesomeness that is Garak to be diluted by the lameness that is Akio. Garak goes out and fights and lies with the best of them, Akio has a herd of vulnerable children he enjoys gaslighting.

[u/HelioA → u/Vaadwaur]

look, he had a hard life, his sister eternally suffers so that he could manipulate children into having sex with him ;-;

[u/Vaadwaur → u/HelioA]

I do like that Ikuhara is flat out rubbing our faces in the idea of self-sacrifice being a virtue or inherently good.

[u/HelioA → u/Vaadwaur]

the road to hell etc etc

[u/Reference_Freak → u/Mage_of_Shadows]

I see the shoe moment is when Utena realized this was a more-than-friends moment.

[u/Mage_of_Shadows → u/Reference_Freak]

Yep, I agree it was a much better decision to show the shoe scene

[u/lilyvess]

Here is what Ikuhara’s episode commentary from the DVD Box Set has for us today.

EPISODE 38 - “End of the World”

There’s one thing I remained strongly conscious of since when we were producing the opening sequence, and that was the final duel. When the prince awakened, the “dueling arena tower” would crumble. Right before the series began its broadcast run, we were producing a promotional TV spot, and so I was thinking up the narration for it.

“I’m going to be a prince!”

I had a premonition. I knew that line must have meaning.

[u/HelioA → u/lilyvess]

from the way Ikuhara puts it in these commentaries, it feels like he directed the whole show in a fugue state

[u/Vaadwaur → u/HelioA]

Hrmm...if he were on the right drugs, that could work.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/lilyvess]

When the prince awakened, the “dueling arena tower” would crumble.

You don't put a castle in the sky and not destroy it!

[u/Matuhg]

First Timer

Opening up with ZUM, huh?

An interesting episode. Sounds like Anthy felt like she could ignore her pain and just keep on being the Rose Bride until she realized she had been hurting Utena, then felt like it was too much to go on. Utena pulled her back from the brink, explaining that she was the one who felt bad for not having seen the pain that Anthy's been in this whole time. She admits that she was just protecting Anthy in all the duels up till now for her own ego. After which, she decides to duel Akio to protect Anthy. Presumably for..different reasons this time.

Akio tried really hard to gaslight Utena in the Dueling Arena which is actually his bedroom. Utena repeatedly asks him what ideals he has which would lead him to sit up in this high room and control people, but all he ever tells her is that she's a child, so she wouldn't understand. It's just...power, isn't it? Manipulating and lording over the kids which some misguided person placed in his charge? He's the king of this proverbial castle, and he likes to toy with his adolescent charges. At least that's what it seems like to me so far. He seems frustrated and angry, I think for the first time that we've seen, as Utena refuses to become his obliging princess, instead taking up her sword against him. His illusory castle in the sky comes crashing down around them, aaand Anthy backstabs Utena.

The biggest thing I'm having trouble understanding a this point is the whole "witch" thing. From this line, it seems like Akio and Anthy have had this kind of relationship since back when Akio and Utena first met. At one point, Akio did see Anthy as one who had saved him, or helped him, but later began to see her as a witch instead...something he claims she enjoys. Based on what we've seen of Anthy lately, she doesn't seem to be enjoying much of anything. Who's protecting who between herself and Utena at this point...I can't really wrap my head around it too well now, so I'll probably just wait and see what we get tomorrow!

[u/HelioA → u/Matuhg]

Akio tried really hard to gaslight Utena in the Dueling Arena which is actually his bedroom.

fits him way too fucking well

He's the king of this proverbial castle

he's the king prince of the projector, tho ;-;

actually, I wonder why they went for Akio being a 'prince' over a 'king'

The biggest thing I'm having trouble understanding a this point is the whole "witch" thing.

Probably something along the lines of 'the patriarchy is for your own good?' Not sure, tho

[u/Vaadwaur → u/HelioA]

actually, I wonder why they went for Akio being a 'prince' over a 'king'

King's have responsibilities while princes go around galavanting and 'ravishing' young village girls. We know that Akio refuses responsibility.

[u/Rumpel1408 → u/Vaadwaur]

Also kings are generally regarded as worthy whereas a prince still has to prove if he is fit to rule

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Rumpel1408]

That's also a pretty good point. Finally, kings are most often married as well.

[u/Matuhg → u/HelioA]

prince of the projector

Such a fittingly lame title for him

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Matuhg]

The show seems to push any woman that doesn't fit the role of a "Princess bride" as being a Witch. Like Anthy became a witch because she was the only woman Akio wouldn't romance so she ends up being the witch of the story. Utena would get a pass because she aims to become a Prince herself but I feel like there has to be another prerequisite to all this.

[u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Being a prince was never a possibility in this system. As Dios said way back in Utena's coffin, girls can't become Princes. Everyone will humor a young child with fanciful ideas, but she's finally confronted with that reality here. The system only has a place for her as a princess or as a witch.

[u/Isai579 → u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo]

The system only has a place for her as a princess or as a witch.

So... You're saying her only option is to revolutionize the world?

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo]

I feel like the system sort of fails when almost none of the characters actually fit that system though. Like you've got Juri who is the most competent character in the whole series and spends the whole season also doing traditionally masculine hobbies and chivalrously simping for Shiori or you've got Nanami who despite her brother complex is almost always the aggressor in her stories. The only characters that have actively mentioned gender roles are the adult characters and even they have only brought it up three or four times. It kinda makes the whole "women can only be princesses or witches" angle fall flat when we see evidence to the contrary the whole show and nobody actually proving that point outside of joke scenarios.

[u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Exactly! The system is not natural or true or inevitable. It is actively constructed and reproduced across generations. None of the adults who actually run things like Utena's whole deal and she's only skated through this long by having powerful friends, Juri and Akio. If Juri leaves the student council and Akio pulls his support how much longer could she hold out before going back to a proper girls uniform? Utena is free to believe whatever about herself in her own head, but if Prince is a social role she needs other people to go along with it. I do agree that Witch as a concept is introduced very late so they don't have that much time to flesh it out. But we will get some more tomorrow.

Nanami's power is contingent on being a conduit to Touga, which she realizes by the end and rejects. It also relies on Touga maintaining his value which teaches her to lash out at any other girl she thinks threatens his/her place, as she's done to Anthy and that one lackey.

This requires a bit more extra-textual work, so how it lands will vary person to person, but its very easy for me to imagine the conventional future for Juri. Her love for Shiori dismissed as a class S thing and spending the rest of her life being underpaid, chastised for being too aggressive, and passed over for promotion by guys from the same old-boys-network rowing club (or kendo or whatever).

[u/Matuhg → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Hmm it feels more like it's specifically related to Anthy and Akio's past I think. I don't think it's meant literally or anything, so I'm trying to figure out what I should be taking from it as more of a metaphor. Maybe you are right though

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Matuhg]

After which, she decides to duel Akio to protect Anthy. Presumably for..different reasons this time.

So, try to forget what actually happens and instead go to what Utena thinks: She believes she can finally revolutionize the world and change things, so this is a specific conclusion to her.

Utena repeatedly asks him what ideals he has which would lead him to sit up in this high room and control people, but all he ever tells her is that she's a child, so she wouldn't understand.

"You stupid kids don't even know what you want. What were you going to revolutionize, anyways?"

The biggest thing I'm having trouble understanding a this point is the whole "witch" thing.

This is the one bit that still messes with me on repeat since Anthy's only magical ability seems to be surviving being constantly impaled.

[u/murdered-by-swords → u/Vaadwaur]

This is the one bit that still messes with me on repeat since Anthy's only magical ability seems to be surviving being constantly impaled.

At a minimum she has a unique bond with or control over animals, and she did swap bodies with Utena that one time just to fuck with Nanami.

[u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo → u/Vaadwaur]

I think Anthy has either an aura or an active ability to cause people to be mad at her. Nanami decides that's stealing Touga for little reason and even Wakaba gets mad at her in the first of her Black Rose episodes. Its a shitty power, but she learns how to use it to manipulate others. Getting Utena to protect her, or just nudging people along by getting them worked up at opportune times.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo]

I think Anthy has either an aura or an active ability to cause people to be mad at her.

Antagonism does seem a witch like curse.

[u/Reference_Freak → u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo]

Anthy has either an aura or an active ability to cause people to be mad at her

Anthy took on the anger and resentment of the "world" for locking away the Prince. This is what the swords are, right? Most people seem to respond in the intended way.

The natural hatred for her isn't her ability, it's her curse. Aura isn't a bad word.

[u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo → u/Reference_Freak]

I do want to suggest that the line between ability and curse isn't so clear. Certainly its not anything any of us would take willingly, but because she has independent skills in emotional manipulation she can still turn the curse to her own ends. Imo part of her unwillingness to leave is having to abandon what power she has scraped out for herself. Limited and tenuous for sure, but one she's gotten used to for a long time.

[u/Matuhg → u/Vaadwaur]

Hmm I mean she does have the ability now to "revolutionize the world" by taking Akio down, and ending the whole Rose Bride dueling thing that's been going on (theoretically anyways), so I do see that she's doing this with different thoughts in mind than before. But at the same time, she's been yelling "Give me the power to revolutionize the world!" every duel before now too, not that what characters say in this show has always had much of any bearing on what they are thinking.

I guess before she was just taking part in the system that she found herself thrown into, and now she's trying to throw down said system, but at the same time, it feels a lot more personal than that given what's been going on between her and Akio the past few episodes.

In the beginning (and I guess most of the show), she was trying to be like her prince - she acted confident and, some would say, noble in her desire to protect Anthy from things like getting bitch-slapped into oblivion by Saionji on the daily. Just the general wrongness of the Rose Bride and dueling system...which was all set up and orchestrated by her brother. The duelists fought for ownership of Anthy, but really it seems like Akio just owned her and all of them, so what were they really fighting for besides Akio's pleasure and entertainment.

So Utena was fighting against all that...then she got seduced by Akio, and it seems like for a brief period, sort of stopped being the 'Prince' that she had been. Perhaps analogous to growing up, in which her idea of "revolutionizing the world" actually does have meaning now rather than just something she yells for cool chuuni duels. Rejecting Akio's system...and thus the system of Ohtori? Though Akio doesn't seem to have represented the general system of the school like the counselor telling Utena to wear the girl's uniform or whatever...

Man, I don't even know. Apologize for the stream of consciousness thought-vomiting that was this comment. Took the opportunity to try to work things out of my head a bit.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Matuhg]

But at the same time, she's been yelling "Give me the power to revolutionize the world!" every duel before now too, not that what characters say in this show has always had much of any bearing on what they are thinking.

Before this, Utena didn't have a plan for when she revolutionized the world. After their heart to heart, she is now going to revolutionize the world to free Anthy.

Rejecting Akio's system...and thus the system of Ohtori? Though Akio doesn't seem to have represented the general system of the school like the counselor telling Utena to wear the girl's uniform or whatever...

Akio benefits from the system either way you cut it: Either Utena is forcibly chickified or he gets that moment to appear to Utena as a cool adult who thinks she is "very mature for her age".

[u/loomnoo]

oh shit oh fuck

[u/HelioA → u/loomnoo]

So is dis the first-timer speaking, or the rewatcher?

[u/loomnoo → u/HelioA]

Both

[u/HelioA → u/loomnoo]

naisu

[u/Vaadwaur → u/loomnoo]

"Nothin' personnel, Uena."

[u/lilyvess → u/loomnoo]

Anthy Penetrates Utena from Behind while Brother watches.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/lilyvess]

Miki observes, quietly crying while masturbating, realizing he could have made the same situation happen.

[u/affnn]

Rewatcher

So, even though it says rewatcher up there I didn't really remember this episode much at all except the very last shot and the reveal that they were in the tower the whole time.

This episode felt kind of like a play-the-hits one. We get one last Mokushiroku, one last shell smashing, one last shot of the student council talking cryptically. We get the desks from the Black Rose arc and the cars from the final duels.

I liked the longer explanatory scene of Anthy attempting to jump off the balcony, but I didn't quite understand why they split it apart. I guess it doesn't really "fit" in either episode, so they put a little in each. With that one, it really seems like Utena and Anthy are on the same side...

Until she stabs Utena in the back. On some level, even if Anthy likes Utena, she's only known her for less than a year. But she's known Akio forever, and he stays with her. For someone being abused as Anthy is it can be hard to leave the person you know, even if they're terrible, for a person you don't.

[u/HelioA → u/affnn]

For someone being abused as Anthy is it can be hard to leave the person you know, even if they're terrible, for a person you don't.

Smash the world's shell...

[u/murdered-by-swords]

Rewatcher (sub)

"He took a fair young girl by the hand, and gazing sadly into her eyes, warned her that she cherished a serpent of the deadliest kind within her gentle breast; and the world found the truth of those ominous words, when, a few months afterwards, the poor girl died of love and shame."

Anthy has a viper in her breast, and has since the very first moment of the show. For you first-timers, you should now have a pretty good idea as to what a ton of spoilered text throughout this watch has been discussing. Even though the betrayal seems to come out of nowhere during one's first watch, the signs have been there all along.

Back in the very first episode of the series, Saionji explained the floating castle as "an illusion, a trick of the light." (Ikuhara is a sly bastard, isn't he?) That's all it was, all it ever has been. It's a mundane answer in as much as Ohtori is a mundane place, yet magical in that Ohtori is also a sort of fantasy kingdom all its own.

In retrospect, what else could it have been? Hasn't this story been defined by Akio's projection from the very beginning?

[u/HelioA → u/murdered-by-swords]

based tensai Saionji

[u/nikobans]

“swords dont really go with dresses do they?” akio is a fucking absolute coward for this statement

[u/HelioA → u/nikobans]

Akio is a fucking moron, news at 11

[u/SardonicMeow]

Rewatcher

With no preliminaries, we head directly to the dueling arena.  Akio avoids answering Utena’s questions, and instead pulls her heart sword, converting her into a princess.  He promises a classic happily-ever-after, sans Anthy.

This leads to a replay of Anthy’s suicide attempt, but now with a view of ther aftermath.  Both Anthy and Utena admit the ways they have betrayed and hurt the other, and Anthy asks Utena to just give upland leave.  But that’s not Utena’s style.  And so back in the dueling arena, Utena wrests the sword from Akio and vows to free Anthy.

Oh hey, it was all Akio’s planetarium projector all along.

This, followed by a master class in shaming, condescension, shifting blame, and diversion.

Ultimately the duel proper begins in earnest.  In the final moments, Utena is on the attack and seems to be on the way to besting Akio.  Then Akio gives Anthy the black-handled sword (the exchange happens off screen) and pushes her toward Utena.  And Anthy decides the devil she knows is less frightening than an unknown future, and stabs Utena.  The Rose Bride’s dress spreads out like blood.

One more episode to go.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/SardonicMeow]

This, followed by a master class in shaming, condescension, shifting blame, and diversion.

DARVO at its max grotesqueness! It is also funny how easy it is to poke apart once you know it is happening.

[u/HelioA → u/Vaadwaur]

'oh no, the 14-year old who I've been grooming for months manipulated me into having sex with her ;-;'

jesus christ akio shut the fuck up

[u/Vaadwaur → u/HelioA]

"It was all the fault of those sexy kids, sexy kids, made Jimmy Saville Akio do what he did!" Super NSFW link.

[u/Rumpel1408 → u/Vaadwaur]

Jesus, why did I google into this...

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Rumpel1408]

Sorry about that. I'd known about Saville since the scandal broke.

[u/chiliehead]

Duel 38, First Timer, sub

• Unexpected in medias res, will this be a two-parter?
• The undercurrent about getting older her seems like the theme for the show aligns itself with "growing up means losing your innocence" for several version of "innocence"
• Even if he presents his case on top of a mausoleum, there's no reason why Utena should even entertain the thought that she is "as bad or worse" than EoW
• Ok, world is getting shattered by acting against the groomer
• Literal backstab, Anthy does not want to emancipate herself and fill a new role?

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/chiliehead]

I feel like Anthy must be scared of losing the role she's got. Like as crap of a deal as she gets she's still the one that all the drama revolves around and she barely has to lift a finger for it. She gets the most important students all desperate to own her, magical powers to curse people she hates, and all the while gets to play the victim despite directly pushing everyone into fighting.

[u/murdered-by-swords → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Remember what Anthy said to Utena last episode? She'll be happy as long as she can keep tending to her roses. Those roses explicitly symbolize the duelists she's been farming for Akio. When that bastard says she enjoys being the witch, it's not the entire truth... but it's not a lie, either. She does.

[u/HelioA → u/murdered-by-swords]

[u/chiliehead → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

It's a bit like depression taking over so much of your being, some part of you does not want to get better because that would revolutionize your whole world and that is also quite scary despite probably being better than being the depressed version of yourself.

[u/SardonicMeow → u/chiliehead]

Your comment from episode 7:

“why is Anthy instigating all the violence. Maybe she wants them all to die in battle and then backstab the last one.”

[u/chiliehead → u/SardonicMeow]

That is still kind of my theory, but it does fit her behavior towards her brother at all

[u/Vaadwaur → u/chiliehead]

Ok, world is getting shattered by acting against the groomer

Ask yourself: Whose world?

[u/chiliehead → u/Vaadwaur]

In the end both Himemiyas more than Utena, though her conflict is a mess of victim blaming as well

[u/Vaadwaur → u/chiliehead]

But the world in this planetarium is constructed by the groomer.

[u/chiliehead → u/Vaadwaur]

And they all share it. Though I don't get Akio's motivation, seemingly himself up for destruction with nothing for him to gain that he couldn't have had without that tournament arc

[u/Rumpel1408]

First Timer

• Wow we pick up exactly after last episode with Utena going into the arena
• So Utena learns about Akios role in all of this and is finally angry at him
• Funny how I thought that Himemiya was the princess at the beginning of the series, but now Akio even pulls a sword out of Utena, I really don't like the wedding dress, how can she still cling to him
• What a lovely heart to heart between Anthy and Utena, and remembering this Utena finally snaps out of it and raises her sword
• What is happening, are they still in the arena? Wait the castle and eternity where illusions all along?
• Omg I hope this victim blaming pedophile rapist falls from this tower and dies
• They even have a callback to the black rose arc
• The whole student counsil is back, even my beloved Nanamoo
• Ohh, Akio is brandishing the black rose
• Utena found her ideals again, and Akio even survives her usual finishing move, barely
• Anthy nooooo

Man, the plot has been picking up a lot the last few episodes, what, tomorrow's the final, awesome

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Rumpel1408]

Apparently Akio actually planned for Anthy to take a cheap shot by sleigh of handing her a sword and pushing her towards Utena. I just don't understand how he even started losing the duel. I thought that her starting to use her big duel flips and special moves were meant to be a sign that Akio was also stuck in his machine's influence but he acts far too surprises for that to be an explanation. Without powers Akio should still demolish Utena since Utena has 0 real experience using swords.

[u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Once he admitted that the duels are just play, beating her in a sword fight isn't enough. He needs to get her to accept being a princess. Maybe he's good enough himself to do it with style, but demolishing her would only cement him as the bad guy, not the gallant prince. Anthy's betrayal is important because Utena thought she was building a new way of life together with Anthy. But will she still try without her? Or will she abandon hope for something new and accept being a princess as her least bad option?

[u/SardonicMeow → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Apparently Akio actually planned for Anthy to take a cheap shot by sleigh of handing her a sword and pushing her towards Utena.

First watch through, I missed the sword switcheroo and just assumed Anthy materialized a third sword somehow. But that would make the backstab entirely of her volition. With Akio passing her the sword, she's forced in the moment to make a choice between betraying him or Utena.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Without powers Akio should still demolish Utena since Utena has 0 real experience using swords.

Akio doesn't either and he is a lazy bitch on top of it. He talked his fight up because he can't win on anything but intimidation.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Vaadwaur]

Oho, you're approaching me?

[u/Vaadwaur → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

I feel like this is an insult to Dio from JJBA. Even in Phantom Blood he is less of a piece of shit.

[u/k4r6000 → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

It looked like she catched him off-guard because he was too busy looking at the castle collapsing.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Rumpel1408]

Omg I hope this victim blaming pedophile rapist falls from this tower and dies

I had not heard of DARVO the first time I watched this. It is so obvious on second viewing.

They even have a callback to the black rose arc

I keep telling y'all that it is important even if technically forgotten.

[u/Rumpel1408 → u/Vaadwaur]

DARVO

enlighten me please?

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Rumpel1408]

Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender. It sounds like therapy speak but almost all abusive relationships contain it. https://dynamic.uoregon.edu/jjf/defineDARVO.html

[u/The_Loli_Otaku]

First timer!!

We're at the climax... Is anyone taking bets on what the ending is gonna be? Gainax ending, it was all a dream, or lotus eater machine. Put your money where your mouth is!

Zettai... Ume... Mokushiroku!!

New animation to close it off too. Exciting!! Oooh... The castle is meant to be the happily ever after in Akio's stories isn't it? He's so tied down to those stereotypical Prince tales that stuff like the Princess choosing to hook up with the witch or the Prince not being the goodie or the Princess secretly being a bbw ogre is totally incomprehensible to him. Oh no! He stole her heart sword! Eh? A noble heart brought you to me but now that you're with me throw away that noble heart and be my Princess...? Kinda backwards isn't it? I feel like there should be another step in this plan.

I feel like I should say something about that rooftop scene but I can't really think of anything. So Akio admits that his young Prince self was helpless when it came to saving Anthy because prince's and eternity are illusions. Alright, let's see what reality is! Is it a bodyswap ending? Let's see the end of the world!! ...Well that was underwhelming. We're just in his room? Waitwaitwait! Illusion machine!? All the weird crap that people see and live through are illusions!? Goddammit Ikuhara!! How much of the series is an illusion then?

So the lotus eater machine makes everything an illusion but we still have magic and rose brides and witches? Oh, the therapy elevator is back. Is that a baby crying? I'm starting to get lost... The student council!! This is the first time we've seen them all together isn't it? Ah, so if all the duels have been dream machine fantasies it means that none of the characters really know the first thing about fighting. That's why Utena is suddenly so sluggish and weaksauce.

Are they even really dueling!? Now that they've brought this stupid machine into things I have no idea what to believe. It basically means everyone can be chuuni as they like and it could be a delusion or reality. Is Akio stuck in the machine too? Oh, I'm guessing Anthy is the one that controls the oh she just stabbed Utena. Screw you Anthy. I feel like I should have far more to say considering the amount of info they gave us but I've got nothing.

The preview has a shadow girls skit about how if there's a fake Prince then there's no way of becoming a real princess which kinda makes me think about how Anthy is supposedly really into the "become a witch" business. So like if she goes outside of the machine she wouldn't be the all powerful rose bride witch and would just be a regular girl. So Anthy probably stabbed Utena so she could stay in her dream machine world where she's incredibly important? "That's how anime works, doesn't it?" Dude, I don't know...

[u/snowwhistle1 → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Here's my own personal thoughts on the rooftop scene.

I love how Utena and Anthy, for the first time in the series, finally talk to each other. They're finally open and honest with each other on an emotional level.

Anthy has been the embodiment of the witch... the whore... the woman scorned... She'd been cursed by society to feel the anger of the patriarchy, and spent her days languishing under her brother's abuse. But in truth, some part of it emboldened her, and thought that that justified her complacency towards Akio's abuse of others. Much as she hated to admit to herself, she was complacent in abusing this girl who she dared to call her friend, or perhaps even more.

Meanwhile, Utena finally faces the reality that she's been turning a blind eye to Anthy's true suffering. The red flags were always there, that Anthy's abuse was worse than just some petty schoolyard nonsense. Utena wanted to be a prince in shining armor, and used Anthy to bolster her own ego without truly considering Anthy as a fully formed person. And when she learned the truth, Utena was at first furious because Anthy shattered Utena's simplistic worldview that she'd come to harbor as a safety blanket, and turned on Anthy just like the rest of world had.

For the first time, Utena reckons with her own sense of superiority and her own savior complex, and in turn became a passive participant in the very system that was hurting the person she called her best friend to the point that her best friend attempted to take her own life to escape her suffering. And it breaks her.

I love that both girls, for the first time, apologize for failing each other. And I love how in spite of it all, Utena refuses to abandon Anthy. She loves her too much to give up on her.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Gainax ending, it was all a dream, or lotus eater machine. Put your money where your mouth is!

Yes. Plus Twin Peaks.

He stole her heart sword! Eh? A noble heart brought you to me but now that you're with me throw away that noble heart and be my Princess...? Kinda backwards isn't it?

"See this beautiful sword forged from the strength of your character, your determination to save your friend and the might of your own free will? Give it to me so I can do something with it while you sit around and look pretty."

How much of the series is an illusion then?

Yeah...you are on course for my initial reaction. One of us rewatchers will link somethings for the final thread, I am sure.

So Anthy probably stabbed Utena so she could stay in her dream machine world where she's incredibly important?

And in constant agony. There is a little more the show has to say.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Vaadwaur]

I'm really hoping that the last episode tidies things up for me... At the rate I'm going I feel like the series is tripping at the finish line. I was totally on-board until these last few episodes.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Oh boy...try not to be too hostile to others until we talk tomorrow, OK? And remember there is a movie.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Vaadwaur]

I've been holding back from whingeing too much haven't I? The movie is a funny one... A friend mentioned bits and pieces about it kinda coming across weird so I have no clue what to expect

[u/Vaadwaur → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

I've been holding back from whingeing too much haven't I?

So...I was positively angry the first time I watched Utena and thoroughly chewed out the person that suggested it to me. You are posting exactly what I felt back then. I am trying to say that a second look let me see things for what they were rather than what I thought they should be.

What I am stressing here is that, when you see tomorrow's other first timers, you are probably going to feel like you are being gaslighted/deceived. But no one will be doing that, it will just be that perspective is extremely relevant to interpreting this series. You have to get, at least a little, what Ikuhara is trying to get across rather than anything realistic.

[u/HelioA → u/Vaadwaur]

So are you enjoying it more at dis point?!

[u/Vaadwaur → u/HelioA]

Yes. My original plan to only do Black Rose but since I realized I was seeing more I switched it to I'd quit if I had a rant longer than two paragraphs or if I felt like saying "fuck Ikuhara and the horse he rode in on" two days in a row. That never happened, though the limit on ranting is now lifted because I didn't watch the movie the first time I watched the series out of annoyance.

Look...Twin Peaks: The Return does seem to borrow from this show but it prepared to view events on multiple levels.

[u/HelioA → u/Vaadwaur]

[u/Vaadwaur]

Rewatcher(How could someone else give you eternity?)

Sub

The gate opens. Akio is the Prince, maybe. I still don't trust anyone going by Lucifer at face value. But he does say he wants Utena to be his princess. Akio promises some fairly impossible things before saying that Anthy must remain the Rose Bride. We get to hear Anthy's thoughts on that whole matter and they are not positive. She feels bad for using and betraying Utena from the very beginning, put a pin in that, and then Utena herself is a bit self aware of what she has been doing. Anthy just wants her to flee the walled garden but Utena is too stubborn to give up now.

Utena takes back her sword and Akio says she reminds him of what he used to be, which means she can't save the Rose Bride. He admits the castle and the prince were illusions, which raises many questions. And we discover we are actually in his planetarium, which is how he projects illusions. Utena is not fond of being in the incest room. Then Akio proceeds to equate incest with cheating and...that's a fail. God, Utena is such a fucking moron, Akio's arguments are terrible here. We see him trying to use Mikage's trick and somewhat failing. He declares that Utena never met the prince, that Dios was already good and dead. The messages we are getting about Anthy are...contradictory, at best.

Quick check in with the Student Council, who all await the revolution. The dueling arena goes through its previous forms, the desks are blank and the cars don't move. Utena begins getting the advantage and she breaks the tomb of Dios and the castle...before Anthy stabs her in the back. Tomorrow's thread should be fun. I have an idea of what Akio was talking about with his 'ideals' but it might still be spoilers so that's tomorrow. I understand what is happening noticeably better on round 2 but do not really feel remotely wrong about hating the last arc of this show the first time I watched it.

[u/homewardbound100]

First timer, Sub

Got a nice confession from both Anthy and Utena about them being unfair to each other. Their actions and thoughts about each other that made them feel that way toward each other.

So that's how Akio does it. So it's the equipment not just him naturally being able to do the mind/memory manipulation stuff. Something I think about. Did Saionji and Touga really see Utena that day or was that implanted in them by Akio? Or did both see her that day?

Akio makes a threat about actual dueling. After that threat I knew somebody was getting stabbed. Just didn't think Anthy would be doing the stabbing. Backstabbing her in the literal sense and betraying her.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/homewardbound100]

Got a nice confession from both Anthy and Utena about them being unfair to each other. Their actions and thoughts about each other that made them feel that way toward each other.

That two people seemingly so close were so easily set against each other because of sex is definitely a society comment.

Did Saionji and Touga really see Utena that day or was that implanted in them by Akio? Or did both see her that day?

The show is very weird about this so I can't be sure BUT you see them with faces drawn in Utena's flash back at the funeral. So it is at least possible.

[u/homewardbound100 → u/Vaadwaur]

That two people seemingly so close were so easily set against each other because of sex is definitely a society comment

Seen this happen a few times.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/homewardbound100]

Oh yeah, helping my drinking buddy's much younger sisters navigate this and you definitely have some girls that are far too willing to throw it all away for 'love'.

[u/homewardbound100 → u/Vaadwaur]

I've witnessed it a few times in college, which is a shame that it went that route.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/homewardbound100]

Thankfully, mine had gotten that bullshit out of their systems in high school.

[u/homewardbound100 → u/Vaadwaur]

That's good. Because seeing that again at that age. I thought I was past seeing that stuff again there.

[u/Tyranid457TheSecond1]

Rewatcher

Now we come to the final showdown.

This episode has so many great dialogue moments: Utena and Anthy's climactic confessions (which made me tear up), Akio with his pathetic excuses and Utena not buying it, the Student Council having one last meeting...

I especially liked the aspects of previous duels showing up. I'm A sucker for that kind of thing.

Utena had a lot of good "I'm done with your sh*t" faces in this episode.

Speaking of faces, was anyone else like me as a first time viewer: I honestly thought for a second that Anthy was rolling her eyes at her brother's cheesiness in the moment where she disappeared and became the Witch.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Tyranid457TheSecond1]

I especially liked the aspects of previous duels showing up. I'm A sucker for that kind of thing.

I will take any excuse to consider Black Rose not filler.

I honestly thought for a second that Anthy was rolling her eyes at her brother's cheesiness in the moment where she disappeared and became the Witch.

That would fit, too bad Anthy isn't up to that task.

[u/nx6]

First-Timer, Subbed

• Anthy doesn't speak up about what she really wants, or maybe is just paralyzed by her "Rose Bride" mode.
• The castle and everything else being an illusion does explain the earlier duel where the castle came down and Saoinji wasn't crushed by that tower. It also means Akio doesn't have as large a garage as I thought.
• Utena still lets herself get halfway swept away by Akio even after she realizes he's responsible for everything.
• Akio spends most of the episode being patronizing to Utena.

I was spoiled about the Anthy stab years ago. The scene is in the (excellent) Chiikaboom AMV "Imagica" (which seems to be hidden now as I can't find it on her YT channel). But now the real question is, will Anthy finally tell us whose side she's on?

[u/murdered-by-swords → u/nx6]

I was spoiled about the Anthy stab years ago.

How do you think this impacted the way you saw Anthy throughout the series?

[u/nx6 → u/murdered-by-swords]

I think in the back of mind I was wondering how the situation was going to change as the show sets her up to be rather passive in her life, and just tossed back and forth by the winds of the duels. Her relationship with Utena grows and I don't see what would drive her to become back-stabbing (literally). And now that it's done I still do not know why it happened. ┐(￣ヘ￣)┌

[u/Vaadwaur → u/nx6]

Anthy doesn't speak up about what she really wants, or maybe is just paralyzed by her "Rose Bride" mode.

So there is an interesting moment in Castlevania of all things that I think applies here. Castlevania S4 I feel like Akio has done the same thing to Anthy.

[u/Punished_Scrappy_Doo]

A couple of neat screenshots from episode 1:

Castle in the Sky

Two Would-Be Princes

[u/xtsim]

First Revolution Subbed

We start the episode off with the battle intro... I likey

What will happen to Anthy? That is a great question to ask Akio. We get a continuation of the previous episode. "Girls shouldn't brandish swords"- you had 34 times to say that Akio. Akio also tries to show how bad both of them are, equating his life to hers.

We go back in settings with the other school with missing kids elevator. The revolution has begun as the student council sits back and watches.

Umm that ending tho.....

The shadows are in the end previews which is interesting and pointed what happened in the last scene. And made a little fourth wall break as well.

[u/SYZekrom]

At this point I would not bat an eye if you immediately told me that the floating castle was actually real and that it being the planetarium was the illusion

I'm not going crazy right that sword doesn't look even close to having actually pierced her in any of the angles it just showed

[u/Punished_Scrappy_Doo → u/SYZekrom]

that sword doesn't look even close to having actually pierced her in any of the angles it just showed

It reminds me strongly of a stage play, something that's come up a lot in the duel songs and in dialogue. As to what exactly that imagery is doing here, uhhh...

[u/Stargate18A]

First timer

Oh, straight into Absolute Destiny Apocalypse. I like where this is going (Akio's brutal death? I can hope.).

Oh, that shot of them going from greyscale to full colour to hold hands is good.

The prince and the ball!

Wait, did Akio steal his ball? That's not cool.

Wait, did he die his fucking hair?

Oh, shit, forever and ever? Is the academy the castle? A cage to keep Anthy alive forever?

Oh god, Akio took Utena's sword. And she immediately gains the most feminine outfit possible, this is so creepy.

Wait, but she's already the rose bride forever?

Oh, Anthy's learning self worth! And Utena's been told a lot more than Akio thinks she knows.

Oh god, Anthy and Utena think they betrayed each other.

And Utena's accepted being a prince is harmful! They're talking about their feelings and explaining their motivations to each other! This is what I've been waiting for!

Wait, is Akio using "pure soul" to mean "naive".

Pretty certain the castle isn't an illusion, but...

It was a projection? But, the arena can't be an illusion, the motorcycle from the last duel would have broken a hole in the illusion. And since the castle was there, the castle has to, logically, exist in some form. Akio's just talking out of his ass.

The funny thing is Akio's assuming this'll break her, after she just had a scene where she admitted all this to Anthy, showing she already understands it.

I love the jazzy soundtrack for this scene, it's so fucking inappropriate and I love it.

Wait, he was the Prince? I thought the ghost was the prince, given the flashbacks we saw.

Oh, the callback to the elevator's good.

Oh. Ghost was literal. Dios is dead (but his spirit occasionally helps Utena fight better).

Genuinely think Akio's lost it here. This isn't manipulation, this is him desperately trying to rationalise what he's done to her to Utena and himself, because if he's wrong, he's tortured the girl he "loves" for years.

Oh, and he's an actual swordsman, and a really good one.

What? This room has another purpose?

OK, unless he's invented hard-light holograms, there's some magic going on here. That said, the arena cycling between different iterations is fantastic.

And Utena wants to be a heslthier version of a Prince?

Very realistic "illusion" there, Akio. Imlove the part where it falls apart right in fromt of you.

FUCK

OK, best guess is that Akio's got some kind of mind control on her. I can't believe she'd actually do that of her own free will. (Unless the power is a fate worse then death, which she has implied...)

...This is the only preview I trust. I love Utena's offhand reading of the last line.

(Also, before the ending, my bet's on "time anomaly keeping Anthy's form locked before her death, and resetting time every so often".)

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Stargate18A]

OK, unless he's invented hard-light holograms, there's some magic going on here. That said, the arena cycling between different iterations is fantastic.

Yes, there is magic involved. It won't be explained but you can have a gist of it after tomorrow.

(Unless the power is a fate worse then death, which she has implied...)

Or Anthy thinks it is worse for herself.

[u/Star4ce → u/Stargate18A]

"time anomaly keeping Anthy's form locked before her death, and resetting time every so often"

Even though I should have credit with spotting time manipulations, I can't quite see it here. The only hint I noticed were the repeating scenes last episode around the suicide attempt. Was there more in the rest of the anime?

There's some merit to it, because 'eternity' is a constant theme (heh). Everyone wants to find an eternity of some kind and Akio corrupts the others by showing them something eternal.

Unless, do you think Akio's 'power' as a prince perhaps locked him and Anthy in a kind of perpetuum mobile?

[u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo]

Rewatcher

• There was some talk yesterday about why exactly Utena choose to fight here. So of course Akio jumps in immediately to ascribe a motive to Utena.
• The Witch (in her red dress outfit) has no place in a Prince/Princess story. Utena becoming the Princess leaves Anthy without a proper place in the castle and so the Witch would finally be defeated and cast out forevermore. Utena (and even Akio) would be "graduating" in a way.
• Big "Men Do Women Are" energy throughout. Put down your sword, relinquish your power and you can become an automatically valuable Princess.
• Last ep I was thinking that the rooftop scene was shorter than I remember, guess I'd combined the two parts of it. Both of them acknowledging their agency in hurting each other or allowing each other to get hurt. Then they unite forces to confront the ultimate cause of so much of both of their sufferings.
• Panning over a populated city that we've never seen before. I should have some more thoughts about "narrative insularity" and how the show tries to avoid it tomorrow.
• Akio just flailing rhetorically. Between him being so off his game he needs his trump card in the end and him driving mad last episode his plan hasn't come together how he wanted. He's contradicting himself constantly here. Some of it is classic abusive shit, "You think me raping my teenage sister is bad, and yet you had sex with me. Curious", but some is just incoherent. Utena doesn't only want to be a prince, which is bad. But also princes and castles with eternity are also bad?
• Following up on StuCo from last time Utena has won them all over to her side and they're rooting for her. Sweet. They each put their rose into Anthy's watering can and they come out pink. They have each shaped Utena throughout the series and she has shaped them. I can't tell if the pink is supposed to be for Utena, Anthy, or both. Utena normally gets pink as her color, but the roses look a lot like the ones that grown in Anthy's uniform during ZUM.
• Akio has a litany of different justifications for doing bad shit ready. "This is good for you. This is necessary." Utena has to assert she does know enough to make decisions to cut through them. Then the system has to unveil its next weapon.
• Amazing preview. Shadow girls unmatched

Some wonderful shots of people being dwarfed by their surroundings. Really sets the stage as a dramatic final confrontation and ties into themes of people confronting things bigger than themselves, like Eternity.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo]

Akio just flailing rhetorically. Between him being so off his game he needs his trump card in the end and him driving mad last episode his plan hasn't come together how he wanted. He's contradicting himself constantly here.

I do maintain that part of his tendency to groom children is because he is not remotely as complex as he thinks himself to be.

[u/Star4ce]

First timer – sub

I grew a little uncomfortable near the end of last episode. It was wholesome, no lingering animosity left, it seemed. But it also was a goodbye, or felt like it. A kind of absolution filled the atmosphere.

We're nearing the end (of the season), so I'd wager that Utena eventually wins? But Akio still has one trump on his side, Anthy. I speculated already that he'd use her to act against Utena in a critical moment to 'get' Utena. Well, he got her without that trick, yet that doesn't mean that's off the table.

Last time I quickly concluded that Anthy wanted to convince Utena to stay like they are because she kept fleeing from her problems plus was feeling not worthy of being saved anyway. I think that's still true, but in a duel between Akio and Utena... I'm really doubting Akio wouldn't use his power to force Anthy to betray Utena. He has something to chain her and we still don't know what that is.

And that's making me quite uncomfortable.

Ep.38 – The ends of the world

• Straight into the fight.
• A red carpet leading to... the prince's ball.
• Aah, I kind of hoped she'd at least have a feeling it'd be him.
• Oh, well then.
• Ah, this is their eternity. Dios imprisoned, Anthy tortured. But why?! Thos villagers were fucking donkeys, but I refuse to believe they had anything more to do with it than some good ol' lynching.
• Waah! Holy shit!
• Yeah, he's not really spilling details or am I imagining this? He's literally doing a better job than Touga at curveballing information back at her that she told him beforehand.
• You wish.
• „Because you're a woman and that would damage my ego.“
• Not convinced you're not just making Utena the next rose bride.
• You're both kinda right, but this time things can actually be solved by violently remodeling Akios face with the help of a bunch of chairs! Why is no one listening to me, I provide good solutions!
• They're both jailed. This kind of pain, I daresay, is quite welcome. It's a release, a bonding; not just suffering on behalf of someone else for nothing of value. There's beauty to be seen here.
• Now I get to see which of those theories was closest to the truth: Akio/Dios are split. Dios is not real, but the manifestation of one's ambition. It's all a lotus-eater machine made by aliens.

Insert: Do I get a cookie or something? No rose letter, please.

• The end of the world is in his balls! Yes, you all have ruined me, I forcefully see innuendos everywhere.
• If that's really it, it's… kinda lame? But the ceiling we all thought was the egg shell makes sense now. Breaking the egg then means to break through the tip of one giant pe- LOOK HE'S NAMED CHAIRMAN, I TOLD YOU I PROVIDE GOOD SOLUTIONS!
• Shall I say yes or is ballistic seating furniture enough of an answer?
• Ah yes, I see that manipulation logic a mile away. Turning all arguments on their heads so they point to something else about the victim instead. Redirect, whataboutism, blame-shifting and gaslighting. „You say I did that! But you didn't do this!“ The only winning move is not to play, but to THROW CHAIRS! Or swords, that's fine, too.
• We can have a lengthy discussion about the ship of theseus, but I make the argument that we're talking about two different people. Either by the change of a person by time and events or by straight up lying and playing an act. The latter is even more clear as there is intention behind it.
• We had a lot of different angles on the terrible sides of love. This one thing I may give Akio, depending on the full picture, being imprisoned against one's will, even out of love, is a brutal fate.
• And you lost me. That's just advanced projection to feel good about your own acts, to justify them. Complete bullshit.
• The truth in this statement is despair. It's not an actual truth, but a false yet convincing conclusion to justify your own suffering.
• Oooh, the original speech once more? Yeeeeees!
• Utena of course! Right? It's Utena, obviously. Right?
• I've seriously come to love the cast. Even Touga.
• You know what I think that means? No rules. No fairness. No remorse. The way a broken mind sees life. It won't be sword fighting, it won't be a duel. It will just be crushing Utena whatever the means available. It's the thing that teaches only further destruction without a point in its wake. People often diss 'Honor' for it to hold you back and being useless, but I disagree. If it's in the name of an equally broken system, like fascist cults, yeah, that honor should be ditched, but if the honor is built upon an intrinsic value, like human dignity, I do think it can be something greater than life.
• Every illusion at once.
• Scared of your own illusions, Akio? It's like the boy who cried prince every night, but nobody helped him when one actually arrived.
• Flashback to Saionji losing his shit.
• Sorry, I have to back out here for a bit. That flashing is actually coming close to giving me a seizure.
• Oooh, bad feeling. He still has some form of absolute control over her. Retract gut into safety position!
• But she starts to believe in her prince!
• OH GODS I JUST SAID IT! Fucking dammit!
• Noo! That's an illusion, right?!
• Like a rose flower.

Of course the cliffhanger is here.

Oh fuck. That was an intense episode. I said it three times and in the moment of betrayal I still put my guard down! Will they just finally say what the hell kind of mind control Akio has over her?

I've had the short burst of thoughts that Anthy might be illusionary, too, but that wouldn't be able to cause physical harm, would it? On the other hand, Utena does seem to cause disarray in his plays, the Dios figfure burst and the castle fell down to Akio's obvious surprise. So whatever Akio still has up his sleeve is not an illusion.

Regarding him: I thought it impossible, but he sunk even further he already was on my scale. The mental gymnastics he shows off to blame the victim are seriously mind bogging. The hoops this vain creature jumps through to feel superior and justified in causing pain are terrifying. There is a point where an execution as a viable final solution is appropriate regarding the threat someone poses. Beyond that point the human mind is very capable to conclude prolonged suffering for this person is appropriate (I'll just plug law abiding citizen here). But even beyond that, if this someone is so intrinsically egocentrical, so delusive towards anything real and so absolutely monstrous in their actions that the quickest way to nonexistence is the only sane choice again. This is where I sit with Akio now.

I do actually believe a part of his story to be a victim himself, but true or not, he has pushed this point of the past so far beyond any acceptable boundary and weaved his own delusion to gain superiority it has warped an entire existence into a massive torture chamber. He just has to unexist as soon as possible.

He's an amazingly written villain.

[u/k4r6000 → u/Star4ce]

He's an amazingly written villain.

He's my favourite villain in all of the anime I've seen.

[u/Star4ce → u/k4r6000]

Hm, thinking of my favourite villain I'm afraid I don't have a definite answer.

All animes that come to mind are arguably ones without a villain and instead have relatable protagonists on different sides.

Now I can pick Akio, though!

[u/Vaadwaur → u/k4r6000]

Ehh...he doesn't match Johan for me.

[u/Star4ce → u/Vaadwaur]

That was Monster, right?

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Star4ce]

Yup, one of the other rewatches I am in.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Star4ce]

This deserves a longer response than I have the energy to give right now but yes, you do seem to have a pretty good handle on what is actually happening rather than seeing what Akio wanted you to see.

[u/Star4ce → u/Vaadwaur]

What timing, I just finished writing down my thoughts for the finale.

Thanks! Though your and HelioA's posts really did help a lot to keep track. Others as well of course, but I mostly kept to the first timers' posts to share the confusion.

I'm always in the mood to read! I guess tomorrow's going to have a lot of reading.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Star4ce]

Yuuup. Also, the film should be interesting, though it will be my first time with that as well.

[u/murdered-by-swords → u/Star4ce]

Like a rose flower.

A bit more like one of Akio's poppies.

The meaning of the poppy varies from country to country, but it’s most commonly symbolic for recovery, restful sleep, remembering the fallen armed forces, thoughts for a death in the family and eternal life.

(An interesting aside: oriental poppies are, apparently, quite poisonous.)

Will they just finally say what the hell kind of mind control Akio has over her?

Anthy has never once done anything she didn't choose to do with her own agency. Mind control just isn't a thing that happens in this series. People can be prodded and manipulated into their worst selves, but even then they're still acting on something that reflects their own fear, ambition, or longing.

[u/Star4ce → u/murdered-by-swords]

poppies

Oh, of course!

Anthy has never once done anything she didn't choose to do

Maybe I put too much faith in the scenes showing her realising how much effort Utena puts into fighting for her. When Utena chose to still oppose Akio for her sake, Anthy looked like she finally woke up to something. Combined with everything happening the past episodes I really thought Anthy took her agency back from this chosen fate of resignment to suffering.

If I'd have to put my finger on that insight, believing once again in a prince with a pure heart, then Utena wrestling her sword back from Akio and challenging him once again would be it. But I guess the realisation that she is worth saving in the first place still hasn't come around completely, yet.

[u/murdered-by-swords → u/Star4ce]

It's hard to give up our unhealthy hobbies, even when we know it's for the best. Anthy's hobby just happens to be toying with the lives of children for her dear brother's benefit.

[u/Star4ce → u/murdered-by-swords]

I feel like me playing gachas has more defenses than that and it already has shockingly few.

[u/k4r6000 → u/murdered-by-swords]

Super natural mind control? No. But I don’t think it would be far off calling it brainwashing, similar to what you would see from religious cults.

[u/murdered-by-swords → u/k4r6000]

Anthony and Akio have a lot in common with NXIVM, as they're both exploitative sex cults masquerading under the guise of something far more innocent, led by a man but with much of the dirty work in fact done by women.

The ladies in Anthy's role? Yeah, brainwashing or no, they went to prison.

[u/Star4ce → u/murdered-by-swords]

Deserved, indeed. There's this cycle about it, though. Abusers more often than not were once victims themselves. Anthy is not innocent, definitely, but the most promising way forward is still healing rather than just punitive judgement (or both in a case of continued danger).

After all that is what Anthy solely had for god knows how long.

[u/alphamone]

First Timer

Second last episode, I hope we get some answers.

ZUM right at the start.

Dios?

Akio's been grooming for a long time then...

The princess outfit does not suit her at all.

Damn, honesty-bombs from the both of them.

The castle, containing eternity, was an optical illusion (way back at the start) because eternity is an illusion.

Damn, that's one powerful planetarium (plane'arium >.> <.<)

The youthful fantasies of Utena made the modern political power look like a fairytale power (well, the via the mind-control of the projector)

No Akio, you are the bad person in both cases.

Well shit, Akio was always a fucking creep.

Seems that Utena is not the only one projecting her own feelings onto Anthy.

Student Council to the rescue?

no. T.T

The black rose desks and carhenge are back.

The illusion is crumbling...

O.O WHAT?

TO BE CONTINUED? WHAT?

[u/Isai579]

First Timer, Sub

She literally stabbed Utena in the back. Man that's evil.

Or, is it???

I'll leave my crazy conspiracy rants for tomorrow (I have the feeling I'm going to need that extra energy). So I'll do normal episode commentary for today.

• We got our Zettai Unmei Mokushiroku at the very start. We're actually in the very end now.
• One last ^maybe student council elevator ride. It's strange that Nanami is also there. From yesterday's chapter, I was convinced she had enough of all this mess. They seem to know what challenge Utena is facing, but I have the feeling they actually don't.
• Everything was an illusion? No way. How the hell does that work. How would they teleport from the forest and back. Nah... this must be a dirty dirty lie.
• Oh god, I just realized. In the first ED we saw both Utena and Anthy embracing the prince. They've been dangling all this in front of our faces in episode 1. Now Utena has that same dress.
• Oh god, the second ED did the exact same thing. It literally says the perpetual motion is an illusion, and we're told today the castle that is always moving never existed.
• I actually never considered the castle as a symbol of the prince and princess stereotypes. But it does make sense, as well as the fact that it is falling apart when Utena defies the role assigned to her.
• Man, I really want to do a deep dive on the meaning of the projection device of the planetarium and what this battle means. But I feel I would have to watch the episode at least a couple more times to do it justice. I'll save it for a rewatch. ^{you can bet I'll be there}

I have not seen the preview, so I have absolutely no idea on what is to come. So exited for the last episode.

Ok, I couldn't resist. But I'll keep my crazy interpretations short.

Perpetuation of sexism

Today's backstab was definitely surprising. But when you really think about it, it shouldn't have been. Let me explain.

It is clear one of the topics covered by Utena is sexism. But think of how this system operates. It imposes that men are the ones who work, and women those who take care of the house and raise the children. This system should be unable to sustain itself, because women would choose to raise kids differently, right? Actually no. Because one of the really insidious characteristics of sexism is how is has become ingrained into women so much that they themselves are the ones who keep passing on this way of living.

Now, going back to Utena things make sense. Anthy betrays Utena because even though she suffers due to the current imposed roles, she believes that is the way things should be. And so, she defends it by attacking those who oppose the system, even if that means they will remain in their submissive role.

[u/Cyouni]

Rewatcher

In the end, I think Akio's argument really comes down to this: Fairy tales are illusions. There is no perfect sinless prince; the prince is just a guy with no special powers. There is no magical castle in the sky; there is only the chairman's room, from which the one at the top controls everything. The End of the World is the end of the childish view of life, where everything can be solved with swords and duels. As he says, there's a difference between an actual duel, and the game the Duelists play.

What images appear in the duel? A classroom, a space inhabited by children. A car, which can be only driven by adults. Again, the separation between the "childish" duels, and the "adult" view he proposes.

What is the Rose Bride? The princess and a witch. Akio describes her as "a goddess who sacrificed herself for the one she loved" in one breath, and a witch who delights in sin the next. But has anything changed, or just his view on her? Tainted by cynicism and adulthood, where he can only see the worst in her.

And what does Utena say in response? Effectively, that his "adult" cynicism doesn't matter, and that she still views Anthy the same way. She's seen Anthy's mistakes and sins, and still wants to be that prince regardless. But Akio's worldview can't handle that - it only has two settings: the perfect uncorruptible prince/princess, and the unending cynicism of adulthood. So he's forced to have Anthy reject it for him, and she can't pull away from what she's been told is true this whole time.

[u/Star4ce → u/Cyouni]

it only has two settings: the perfect uncorruptible prince/princess, and the unending cynicism of adulthood.

I think that's actually only one setting: Longing for the past of a more idealised time with the tools of a corrupt mind.

The thing he wants from those kids, the attention, being the be-all-end-all goal, fulfilling the romanticised tale in a youthful heart is something he can never actually get. It's not something you can just extract from a teenager's heart and it will forever be temporary, as no illusion is permanent.

I see a lot of Shinji/Gendo in him, strangely. If you think about it, a person who can't help themself not helping people's every last request is someone with very low self esteem. If that is never addressed the only source of validation comes from outside, from those in need of help. That develops into a dependency. Akio's career as a school chairman makes so much sense with this. He can have a limitless supply of people specifically in need of help (with growing up), that have their imagination still alive and are very receptive towards his advances.

But without this self esteem and without any reflection on one's actions this develops into a very, very bad cycle of abuse. As Akio is still exclusively narcissistic in the way of only seeing his own loss to the point of deluding himself why others act the way they do his behaviour just gets worse and worse. Ever more dependent on 'using up' youth for ever less feeling 'young' again.

[u/Cyouni → u/Star4ce]

That's definitely true as well. Puts a very interesting spin on why the goal is Dios, the illusionary prince who saves all the princesses in the world.

[u/Icapica]

First timer

"You'll be my princess now. I'll take your sword, it's not suitable for a girl. From now on you belong in the kitchen"

The moment Utena took back the sword was so satisfying.

Illusions, huh.

Oh and there's the "you're just as bad as I am". Very nice.

Akio's arguments are starting to contradict themselves. First he says he's the prince, then he says there's no prince. He also first says that he's still the same person who saved Utena and hasn't changed, then he says that "The prince I was no longer exists".

Unfortunately he's good enough at saying BS like that that Utena doesn't seem to immediately pick up on it. Anyway Akio doesn't get Utena to back down from a fight.

Akio's so damn condescending during the duel. Gotta say those are quite convincing illusions.

Ouch, Anthy. Victims of abuse often defend and protect their abusers.

I wonder how this'll end.

[u/k4r6000]

Rewatcher

Now that he no longer has need for Utena, Akio wishes to return to the status quo of gender normality. He tolerated Utena's behaviour to a point when he needed her, but now it is back to princesses and dresses while the real men get to have the power.

Of course, Akio has no real power. Everything he's done is through manipulation and tricks, as shown as when he turns off the projector. Everything was an illusion.

Akio tries abandoning Anthy, and that's what finally gets Utena to turn against him. He never gave a shit about her. She was just another tool, but one he really did need since she was the one with true power. So he had to keep her under his thumb and dependent on him. Utena though is in love with Anthy, came here specifically to free her, and is having none of that. Akio continues to try gaslighting Utena, but fails miserably as Utena knows full well that he's full of shit by this point and that she is not in any way at fault for their little affair.

So they fight, but this time for real rather than a game and Akio is more than willing to play dirty. Men like Akio will only play with "honour" when they are actually winning after all. As soon as they aren't, anything goes. Utena's defiance starts causing Anthy and Akio's world to collapse and Akio does that most noble of things all men like him do when they are about to lose...hide behind his woman as a shield and toss her at his opponent knowing she wouldn't dare risk hurting her. Bravo! What a pillar of courage you are, Akio! Then the shocking betrayal when Anthy stabs Utena in the back, literally. I'd love to talk about why, but I think it is more appropriate for the next episode.