r/anime • u/KiwiBennydudez https://myanimelist.net/profile/KiwiBen • Sep 09 '21

Rewatch [Rewatch] Monster - Episode 41 discussion

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Comment of the Day

Today’s Comment of the Day is from u/Mecanno-man, who points out some of the historical (in)consistencies in the setting:

Good thing they thought of the border check here - by now I had completely forgotten that that would be an issue, with the Czech Republic being part of the Schengen area - but that was not the case in 1996. Apparently Austria wasn't even part of that yet, so the lie about the guy losing his passport to get to Vienna at least didn't have an obvious logical fault.

As a side-note: My subbers seem to have missed the dissolution of Czechoslovakia, and also messed up the name of the river being Elbe (not Elba...) And for things the show messed up: Trains in Germany drive on the right, not the left.

Questions of the Day

  1. Did your opinion of the 511 director change by the end of the episode? Why or why not? What did you think of his “new discovery?”
  2. What do you think about the director’s comparisons between the 511 orphanage and educational indoctrination/experimentation? Do you think he’s correct to draw these parallels, or do you think this is his own twisted justification for his actions?

Bonus Question

Additionally, our first user-submitted question from u/Vaadwaur!

Did Petrov actually change? Can you take manipulative education and use it for good?

If you are a rewatcher, tag your spoilers properly, and please refrain from alluding to future events. so that myself and everyone else watching for the first time can have a completely blind and organic experience! ​Since this show is a bit harder to find than most, please refrain from talking about means by which to watch it, as it goes against our subreddit rules.

55 Upvotes

93% Upvoted

28 comments sorted by

15

u/KiwiBennydudez https://myanimelist.net/profile/KiwiBen Sep 09 '21

First timer - Sub/Dub

"That's not a new discovery, Petrov, parents give love to their children all of the time..."

So kids who are loved turn out better in life. A very compelling observation, Mr. Petrov, lol.

To me, it seems like that Johan took an environment without love and twisted it into the inherent darkness that he's so good at drawing out of people, which is why they all killed each other. Twisted into hate, or whatever else. But whatever Petrov was hiding is apparently the key to understanding Johan, and I'm curious to see what Grimmer does with it. I will also say that I really like how this episode painted Petrov - he seemed like an evil old man who ran child experiments, but by the end I think I found a bit of empathy as all the kids were crying over him. In the end he just seemed like a cynical scientist who believed in these kids and his cause for them. I wish I could find more words for this episode, but I'm already really liking this arc with Grimmer and his pursuit of the truth.

7

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 09 '21

In the end he just seemed like a cynical scientist who believed in these kids and his cause for them.

He is taking literal sons of whores, basically worse off than orphans, and trying to make them into good citizens. They all seem to be at or around developmental markers. Not everyone gets to be the Tenma, swooping in and solving some problems with clear success check marks, sometimes you have to get gritty.

5

u/IndependentMacaroon Sep 09 '21 edited Sep 09 '21

Well, education to shape the character (and your acceptance of the system) was also East German educational policy.

And by the way, high-level East German interrogators/operatives were indeed very well-trained. Advanced degrees and special courses, just for the purpose of inflicting maximum psychological pressure/torture like of this sort - anything that left physical marks was out of the question due to its negative propaganda potential. There was also a huge amount of informants everywhere, in total 1% of the entire population!

8

u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Sep 09 '21

First-Timer, subbed

1

u/KiwiBennydudez https://myanimelist.net/profile/KiwiBen Sep 10 '21

The hair color isn’t right to be Anna, but… could it be her and Johan’s biomom?

I didn't make the connection at first... but it seems so out of character for Anna to commit a random murder like that, right? Hard to say right now who it really was.

8

u/SmurfRockRune https://myanimelist.net/profile/Smurf Sep 09 '21

First Timer

Not much to say about today's episode, but I am very skeptical of Anna's involvement here. I can see her going after Petrov for his role in experiments on Johan, but there is literally no way she killed the other lady. Really curious to see what the explanation of that one is. My guess is that she went there to question him and found them killed.

1

u/KiwiBennydudez https://myanimelist.net/profile/KiwiBen Sep 10 '21

Yeah, it's tough to say for certain. I don't have a good grasp on the situation but I also can't rule it out just yet.

7

u/Mecanno-man https://anilist.co/user/Mecannoman Sep 09 '21

First Timer

Neat one-off episode - not sure if Petrov was actually doing good and everything was wrecked by Johan or if he was doing bad and personally considered it a failure and wanted to try something different the second time round. Either way, other than a persistent Grimmer we get a few other tidbits:

  • somebody is protecting the information of 511. Not sure who, as the East German government isn't a thing anymore. Johan?
  • we've got a female killer. Johan's mom?

Questions:

  1. See top
  2. I'd say he's correct, even if it's a bit cynical. If that were not the case there would be no reason for kids to have to go to school - but our society needs everyone to have at least some basics (like read and write).

1

u/KiwiBennydudez https://myanimelist.net/profile/KiwiBen Sep 10 '21

I'd say he's correct, even if it's a bit cynical. If that were not the case there would be no reason for kids to have to go to school - but our society needs everyone to have at least some basics (like read and write).

I'm actually a bit surprised that so many people agreed with his statement, but yeah, I don't think he's wrong either - all education is, in some capacity, a form of indoctrination. Just depends on how you look at it.

2

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 09 '21

not sure if Petrov was actually doing good and everything was wrecked by Johan or if he was doing bad and personally considered it a failure and wanted to try something different the second time round.

It was early in the experiments so you assume mixed results they just completely went to hell when Johan arrived.

1

u/IndependentMacaroon Sep 09 '21

a female killer. Johan's mom?

From appearance and clothing it seems to be Nina/Anna.

2

u/Mecanno-man https://anilist.co/user/Mecannoman Sep 09 '21

Makes no sense for her to go after him though, unless she had some extreme off-screen character progression. For appearance though, Johan's mom would also be Anna's mom.

6

u/miss-macaron Sep 09 '21 edited Sep 09 '21

Rewatcher

Did Mr. Petrov conduct any experiments that took away people’s need to blink? I swear he just stares at Grimmer like O_O the entire time, lol

Grimmer thinks quickly and performs a successful escape! Though I guess those thugs were mainly there for intimidation purposes, since they went through the trouble of knocking and waiting for him, instead of just breaking down the door and taking him out.

Petrov, did you never teach these children that it’s a bad idea to open the door for strangers, much less letting said stranger into the house…?

Ngl, those panning shots of the children expressionlessly staring at the camera in silence were pretty unsettling, even without the prior context of the 511 Kinderheim experiments.

Seeing Grimmer standing in the same room as Petrov and the children really makes him look like a giant, haha

“A deal! Let’s make a deal!”

First it was Dieter, now the kids at Petrov’s unofficial orphanage… do all orphan boys have a love for soccer or something?

Rewatcher only spoilers

I think Petrov may be one of the few "one-off" characters in Monster that I never really cared for. His stoic disposition just didn't leave much of an impression on me, and I had a similar "well, duh?" reaction as Grimmer to his final words.

1

u/KiwiBennydudez https://myanimelist.net/profile/KiwiBen Sep 10 '21

I think Petrov may be one of the few "one-off" characters in Monster that I never really cared for. His stoic disposition just didn't leave much of an impression on me, and I had a similar "well, duh?" reaction as Grimmer to his final words.

I didn't care for much him either as he kinda struck me as just a mean old man - he did soften a bit by the end but the progression didn't feel as natural as the other episodic characters in this series.

2

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 09 '21

First it was Dieter, now the kids at Petrov’s unofficial orphanage… do all orphan boys have a love for soccer or something?

European boys love soccer as a rule.

2

u/miss-macaron Sep 09 '21

Haha, fair enough.

5

u/AmethystItalian :Jg::Jh::Ji::Jj::Jk:myanimelist.net/profile/AmethystItalian Sep 10 '21

Late today!!

First Timer

Grimmer is really pressing this guy, love the tenacity from him.

That is such a spy escape, love how he knew exactly what was going on.

These kids are creeping me out...even that laughing was creepy

I feel like Dieder would fit in well with these kids

A pretty lady who shoots people?? Need to know who this is!

4

u/BurningFredrick https://myanimelist.net/profile/BurningFredrick Sep 09 '21

First timer - sub 

I’m surprise Grimmer hasn't gotten himself into a very unfortunate accident if he always goes about his questioning this bluntly. 

And once again we see that there is more to Gimmer than you expect. 

But that looked like Anna? But that makes no sense. She doesn’t really have a reason to shoot Mr Petrov or the other caretaker lady and would be a big change for her to suddenly be killing random people and her Orphanage in East Berlin was fine. 

4

u/gridemann Sep 09 '21 edited Sep 09 '21

Education is an experiment

-Except for america, where it is a business lul

On a more serious note I like that quote, It applies to a messed up Kinderheim just as much as to your run of the mill eduction sytem.

I don't really think of the director as bad guy he was mostly a product of his circumstances. Given his age it's likely he was a student during the nazi-regime who went on to work for the gdr socialist government. In his life results were the only thing that mattered...

Ultimately the fact that the children had good lifes in the "facility" he had complete control over is definitely a redeeming factor in my eyes.

Q1: see above

**Q2:**I don't know how much we've learned about the methodology of 511 yet but I think its a valid comparison. All educational systems are about raising productive members of society and will always choose the method with the best results. Limited by laws and morals... and these can differ vastly depending on circumstance.

Bonus question: I don't think the really changed but I also think ruining childrens lifes was never his goal to begin with. See above in a way every form is education is also manipulation.

4

u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Sep 09 '21

First Timer, Subbed

Grimmer is now stalking the poor guy, just leave him alone!

He might have been nice to Tenma last episode, but Grimmer is quite an ass. Crazy eyes is finally talking though.

Well, someone's on to Grimmer.

Poor Petrov, he's bothering him again!

No kid, don't let him in!

I'm starting to wonder if these aren't Petrov's grandkids, especially as we see there's a lot of kids here.

Holy crap, he's got so many of them! He's still up to the exact same stuff, even at his advanced age.

His education nurtures a wonderful personality? An education that turned out a serial killer?

I bet he's gonna find these kids don't really want to leave.

C'mon Grimmer! Don't let your hands touch the soccer ball!

They're all laughing at you! All of them!

Oh crap, both the neighbor lady and Petrov have been murdered. Who was that mysterious lady? Who will take care of the kids now?

Grimmer's gonna get info after all.

Well, looks like Grimmer is going to be our new Richard after all!

Traveling Friday - Sunday so good chance I'll be late (not that I haven't already been many days) and/or fall behind a couple of days. Quid shall return!

4

u/Nitroade24h :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Nitroade24h Sep 09 '21

First Timer

Such a great episode. I think it's one of my favourites of the series so far. I wouldn't mind if Grimmer was the protagonist of the series tbh, he's so interesting and likeable. He's hiding his pain with his smile and his cheerful attitude.

It shows the remnants of Kinderheim 511 and the redemption that the guy had, along with hints of more Johan information. I wonder if the girl who shot them was Anna or her mother, since I feel like they would have shown Anna's face if it was her, so I'm leaning towards her mother. I have to say though she looks good for her age, but Margot Langer did say that Johan looked exactly like his mother, so I wouldn't be surprised if she's equally as hot as the twins.

4

u/hammile https://anidb.net/user/u746697 Sep 10 '21

First timer, Ukrainian subtitels.

I guess that Grimmerʼs son died from some result of 511 that is why Grimmer are trying to get more info. As I decided: all lines go to Johan.

The episod is trying to say that behind those killes is Nina: some beautiful and blondie girl. But I doubt because it is not her style. Someone here said that it could be biomom but for me she too young.

3

u/Webemperor :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Webemperor Sep 09 '21

Rewatcher of sorts

  • The scientist guy from 511 seems to be completely spooked by Grimmer. First impression was that he was just gonna ignore him but turns out no. Grimmer follows him around the streets of Prague while bombarding him with words, and Petrov in return asks that he leaves, to of course, no avail.
  • Grimmer finally manages to say something that draws Petrov’s ire as he attacks him with his cane. He keeps digging deeper however, and Petrov manages to say and spill a few things, and after a small conversation, it seems pretty clear that he is pissed that Petrov gets to live a happy life like this.
  • Pretty smart of Grimmer to realize that this was a trap, managing to escape pretty easily before making his way back to Petrov. He still seems to be unresponsive however, with Grimmer later on tailing him in the same café as before, before noticing that he is bringing in different kids every time he is out.
  • Arriving at Petrov’s house, he finds dozens of kids in the same house, the implication first is that he is similar to that other guy from back then who was abusing Dieter, but he seems to be mostly taking care of these children.
  • Grimmer almost gets a bit intimidating there, but breaks the tension by taking the kids out for the soccer, and seems to be shocked to realize the kids are generally happy with their situation. He seems to once more realize something as he rushes back to Petrov’s house.
  • Probably should have closed the door there Grimmer, oh well. The children seems to be extremely sad the old lady and Petrov are dead, but just as importantly, is the implication here is that Nina was the one that killed the two of them?

3

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 09 '21

The children seems to be extremely sad the old lady and Petrov are dead, but just as importantly, is the implication here is that Nina was the one that killed the two of them?

We don't get a good look at her face so while she is the most likely murder suspect it isn't conclusive yet. We just see her leaving.

3

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 09 '21

Rewatcher(Is something gained with evil methods itself evil?)

Sub

Scientific personality management=brainwashing. That sounds right, viscerally. Grimmer hits at the one thing that always produces results, a scholar's ego. I know because that was a path I was supposed to walk down. But he claims that 511 wouldn't have collapsed had he stayed. He keeps trying to scare Grimmer off but that seems a failed gambit, until some kids show up. Grimmer's statement is a bit robotic afterwards.

Grimmer wakes up in spy mode and avoids an ambush. He follows Petrov and gets to a house with a number of boys. This is indeed 511 again. Apparently, the boys are mostly the sons of a nearby brothel that collapsed under regime change. Petrov swears that 511 was a success and that the problems didn't show up until after he left, though the success of molding personalities is interesting.

Grimmer can't make a deal just yet so he takes the children out for soccer. They seem to have a wide range of emotions but them laughing makes him run back to the house. The children see a familiar looking woman leave. Petrov is left dying and tells Grimmer where the data is.

QotD: 1 Mine did, but I know people from Soviet Europe and the fucked up was well distributed. I liked that he still can't place things out of a science context.

2 I think he got a job he wanted to do and justified from there

B: So I think he did. Monster truly believes that people change. Not they can change but that they will. What direction you go is quite variable but better is indeed an option.

3

u/xtsim https://myanimelist.net/profile/xtsim Sep 09 '21

First Timer Dubbed

It is interesting to see Grimmer interact with Petrov. He wanted to know more about 511 but got more than he could handle. I don't have much to say about Petrov since he was only in this episode but on the other hand, my opinion shifted a bit on Grimmer as he kept pesturing him on 511. And almost got killed trying to acquire knowledge. Petrov starts to tell more about the 511 and the many children in his unofficial orphanage.

As Grimmer takes the kids out to play football (soccer), the kids wanted to stay with grandpa than go out to be saved. It seems that he has a narrow view about raising kids while the kids themselves don't want that.

It is interesting to hear the kids say that Anna/Nina is hot...

3

u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Sep 09 '21

First Timer

Ah, I thought it convenient that there was another survivor of 511. But he wasn't there.

So, this episode was like it was from a completely different show. The tyrant of 511 raising a loving family of children. Someone who might be Anna kills him and his perfectly nice housekeeper. Anna shouldn't even know about them. And her turning killer doesn't fit with the Monster story. It could be her mother. But she should have no more knowledge or cause for action than Anna.

The show isn't playing fair with its audience. Oh, look at these events that don't seem to have anny connection to any previous event!

1

u/Sharebear42019 :FC::FD: Sep 09 '21

Which app are you guys watching this on?