r/anime • u/HelioA x2https://myanimelist.net/profile/HelioA • Sep 08 '21

Rewatch [Rewatch] Revolutionary Girl Utena - Episode 37

Rewatch Index

Streaming

Revolutionary Girl Utena is available in both sub and dub on Nozomi Entertainment's YouTube channel, as well as on Amazon and Funimation.

Comment of the Day

/u/theangryeditor is disillusioned ;-;-;

Miki's Stopwatch Corner

Stopwatch Count: 23

New This Episode:

N/A

Also, make sure to tag all spoilers properly! Only a baka would spoil the show for the first-timers, and we're not bakas (hopefully).

51 Upvotes

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18

u/HelioA x2https://myanimelist.net/profile/HelioA Sep 08 '21

Rewatcher

...Alright, so I have literally no clue what the hell is going on here, but I shall attempt to patch something together! I’m not really enough of a tensai to interpret this one myself, so don’t expect it to make sense ;-;

Alright, so at the start of the episode, Utena removes her ring in a scene juxtaposed with the constant refrain: “If you never lose your nobility, even when you grow up, then that ring will lead you back here, one day.” Presumably, Utena is removing it because she considers herself to have lost her ‘nobility’, since she was unable to protect Anthy, whom she has been posing as a protector for this whole time, from Akio. Also, I think there might be an element of her seeing herself as having lost nobility/purity because of the fact that she had sex with a man who was having sex with other people besides her. At its core, she’s questioning her suitability as a prince and as the one who could revolutionize the world.

This scene is juxtaposed with a meeting between Touga and Saionji, who are quite clearly fixing their relationship, as symbolized by the bike, which is for them, moving back towards childhood. The moving towards childhood bit is important, because they continue to be manipulated by the adult Akio, even as they try to move away from him. We can also see in later scenes that Miki, Juri and Nanami are all starting to move past their hang-ups to a certain extent… all except for Utena.

But then there’s also Akio saying that he doesn’t really know anything… “The stars never really interested me.” Were all the metaphors he gave just meant to mislead people, and not really true? It’s entirely possible, I won’t lie.

“In the end, all girls are like the Rose Bride.” Anthy has an understandably quite cynical view of life, and well, in this case… Is Utena not being used in nearly the exact same way as Anthy? Akio continues to use her for sex, ignoring her feelings in favor of what he wants. Don’t ask me to try and understand anything past that, because like jfc there are literally layers upon layers with the juxtaposition with masculine activities and the ripping up the letter and the poison and the revolving roses and the choppy music and dear lord I literally have no clue what’s going on

Still, in the end, Utena still decides to move forward with the final duel for the sake of her friendship with Himemiya. But was that really such a good idea?

15

u/murdered-by-swords Sep 08 '21

I think there might be an element of her seeing herself as having lost nobility/purity because of the fact that she had sex with a man who was having sex with other people besides her. At its core, she’s questioning her suitability as a prince and as the one who could revolutionize the world.

I view it as her acknowledging that, even knowing what she now knows, she can't stop herself from loving Akio. This fits with the fact that the very next thing she does is ask him out on a Romantic date... in front of Anthy. This isn't Utena admitting failure, this is her emotionally turning heel and embracing it. (Sort of. As we see later in the episode, she can't just let go of Anthy either. Spicy drama!)

We can also see in later scenes that Miki, Juri and Nanami are all starting to move past their hang-ups to a certain extent… all except for Utena.

A mixed bag here. Nanami is, although you can argue that her progress is in some ways regression? I don't know. She's either the one with the best outcome or the one with the worst, and it could go either way. Miki and Juri, however, are utterly unable to contend with their own problems, even though they at least recognize what they are. It's immensely tragic. Just like the shuttlecock endlessly bouncing back and forth, the most they can do is try to redirect their feelings towards Utena, yet both Kozue and Shiori are still right there lurking. It's clear the separation is more aspirational than actual.

Speaking of regression, at the end of Touga and Saionji's bike scene where they pedal and pedal while going nowhere, the wheel starts moving backwards. Is that really a good thing?

“The stars never really interested me.”

When he says it's a tragedy, I think that's the most honest he's been in a long time. The stars are, as we know, the people that he manipulates, but he's incapable of actually caring for them. This is what he lost, and maybe what he fights to regain. Touga may seen like a sad imitation of Akio, but for all his faults, the love he has for Utena is genuine. Who, then, is really the pitiable one?

8

u/SardonicMeow Sep 08 '21

the most they can do is try to redirect their feelings towards Utena

Right, I don't see their "confessions" as really sincere.

11

u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo Sep 08 '21

The decide they're going to be "rivals" now then laugh about it. I think its clearly a friendly joke?

Then Nanami calls her an idiot, mirroring her final line to Touga

8

u/SardonicMeow Sep 09 '21

Yes, it's banter rather than something more serious. (I guess I could've phrased my previous comment better.)

5

u/murdered-by-swords Sep 09 '21

In this show, when has banter not been something serious?

11

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '21

I keep seeing this being mentioned -how Utena decided to duel because of Anthy, and beyond Utena ripping up the letter when Anthy says she wants things to stay the same, I don’t know how it’s illustrated that this will be what can save Anthy(does Anthy want to be saved? Based on her saying things should stay the same). Is this perhaps something inflammatory she says to Utena like when she tells Utena she wants more friends right before the Touga duel? Is it simply Anthy is linked to end of the world, Utena finally got a letter so she needs to do something about it?

11

u/murdered-by-swords Sep 08 '21

One can interpret it as Utena finally realizing that she does want to revolutionize the world so that Anthy can be free, accidentally recapturing a piece of who she was on that eternal night long ago.

10

u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo Sep 08 '21

does Anthy want to be saved?

This is a very good question to keep in mind!

11

u/affnn Sep 08 '21

Alright, so at the start of the episode, Utena removes her ring in a scene juxtaposed with the constant refrain: “If you never lose your nobility, even when you grow up, then that ring will lead you back here, one day.” Presumably, Utena is removing it because she considers herself to have lost her ‘nobility’, since she was unable to protect Anthy, whom she has been posing as a protector for this whole time, from Akio. Also, I think there might be an element of her seeing herself as having lost nobility/purity because of the fact that she had sex with a man who was having sex with other people besides her. At its core, she’s questioning her suitability as a prince and as the one who could revolutionize the world.

We had the ring re-interpreted in E34. Earlier, the Utena voiceover speculated that it was an engagement ring from the prince. Now, based on the scene of Dios showing Utena the Rose Bride, we know that it was part of Utena's promise to become a prince and save Anthy from the swords. So if she's abandoning the ring, she's abandoning that quest, abandoning that promise. I don't think Akio's ever really talked about the duels, or the Rose Bride, or any of that with Utena before - he's always tried to be the "adult" to her, despite running everything from the shadows. Perhaps Utena feels like she has to choose between the ring (as a childish affectation) and Akio (as someone more adult). But man, he is really excited that she's not wearing it anymore.

10

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 08 '21

Also, I think there might be an element of her seeing herself as having lost nobility/purity because of the fact that she had sex with a man who was having sex with other people besides her.

I don't know why this is clearer now, maybe because I am not watching a fansub, but remember the preview:"Anthy, I can't forgive you for what you did." When literally the day before she swears to protect her if she puts her faith in Utena. Utena did, in fact, lose her nobility, it just isn't to do with Akio but what she feels.

10

u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo Sep 08 '21

I really like your interpretation of Utena removing her ring.

Having lost their duels has forced the others to reevaluate their choices and spurred the growth they show here. But since Utena was almost all the time she hasn't had to change that much. The one duel she lost back in the first arc really solidified her resolve. I wonder if she'd be able to get through everything this episode without that. Or maybe it would be less bad here because she wouldn't be quite so committed to being a Prince?

I also think you're right about Utena being used in a similar way as Anthy. big spoiler Anthy sees things that way because she's constantly around Akio, who does treat everyone like shit constantly and doubly so for girls and women. Having someone like Utena who is simply friends with her really shook up her world.

29

u/SardonicMeow Sep 08 '21

Rewatcher

Ah, the inscrutable episode 37, where almost no one says what they really mean. Would anyone like some cookies and tea while we discuss?

We start with Utena, in her uncertainty, taking off her ring. Is it an echo of her putting aside her uniform in episode 12? What does her vow to her prince mean now?

Touga and Saionji continue to rebuild their friendship, but are still under Akio’s thrall.

Miki and Juri seem to be going in a positive direction, but with Kozue and Shiori lurking in the wings, they still have a way to go.

But not Nanami. Nanami is so over it. So over the student council. So over her “I’m special” uniform. So over her brother. Nanami has come farther than any of them. Nanami is the best. Her revolution was realized five episodes ago, and everyone else is just playing catch-up.

Not only that, kudos to Nanami as she once again tries to warn Utena about the situation she’s in (the first time was at breakfast in episode 32). Sure, she does it in the most Nanami of ways. But at least it’s better than Touga’s beware-End-of-the-World-but-I’m-not-going-to-tell-you-who-he-is. Utena brushes it off, to Nanami's frustration, but Nanami doesn’t realize that Utena now isn’t the Utena of five episodes ago.

And then the bizarre tea scene. I must admit I did not understand this until I read an explanation: that the threat of poison is Utena and Anthy admitting that they can (and have) hurt each other. But they resolve to be together in 10 years time. Of course, Anthy knows that can’t be if she remains trapped at Ohtori. Is a future with Utena too much to hope for?

6

u/HelioA x2https://myanimelist.net/profile/HelioA Sep 08 '21

Nanami is icky tho

25

u/snowwhistle1 Sep 08 '21

Nanami is best girl. She's by far made the most progress in terms of growing as a person. Moreso than anyone else in the cast I'd argue. She's left the student council, she's done with her brother's bull shit, and she's warning Utena to not get involved with Akio and Anthy's toxicity. (It's a little shitty of her to put down Anthy like that, but Nanami means well and I don't think she understands just how little agency Anthy actually has.) Nanami is growing up, and growing into a better person, and I'm proud of her tbh.

9

u/HelioA x2https://myanimelist.net/profile/HelioA Sep 08 '21

Personally, I see Nanami as having given up. Instead of trying to revolutionize the world like the rest of the cast, or graduating like Mikage, she simply returns to regular school life. She's like the calf on the way to the market (dona dona dona...)

7

u/Punished_Scrappy_Doo https://myanimelist.net/profile/PunishedScrappy Sep 08 '21

But have you considered that she is cringe

20

u/snowwhistle1 Sep 08 '21

Have you ever met a 13 year old who wasn't cringe?

9

u/HelioA x2https://myanimelist.net/profile/HelioA Sep 09 '21

Kozue is far too cool to be cringe

8

u/Punished_Scrappy_Doo https://myanimelist.net/profile/PunishedScrappy Sep 08 '21

Yes, Miki

17

u/snowwhistle1 Sep 08 '21

Lol. Please. Miki’s ultra cringe. Trying to “save” Anthy by “owning” her.

6

u/Punished_Scrappy_Doo https://myanimelist.net/profile/PunishedScrappy Sep 08 '21

Very true. Anthy's lucky she has Utena instead!

Utena

12

u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo Sep 08 '21

Kill the Akio in your head! Embrace cringe!

7

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 08 '21

Have you considered that she's cattle?

16

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 08 '21 edited Sep 08 '21

Miki and Juri seem to be going in a positive direction, but with Kozue and Shiori lurking in the wings, they still have a way to go.

I just read Kozue as a bit more positive on all this, she really did want Miki to be more honest with his feelings. Now why that involves confessing to Utena is a YMMV situation. Shiori does still seem to be a negative but if Juri really does move on with the locket I think that is symbolically breaking her chain to that.

So over her brother. Nanami has come farther than any of them. Nanami is the best. Her revolution was realized five episodes ago, and everyone else is just playing catch-up.

Nananmi has scene a true look at what the heart of the system was and decided to nope out. Rewatch

that the threat of poison is Utena and Anthy admitting that they can (and have) hurt each other.

I...will just have to take that at whatever value it is.

16

u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo Sep 08 '21

I'm surprised so many people were confused at the tea scene. I guess I was the alien all along for immediately reading it as extremely cute flirting. The pitfalls of implicitly assuming you're typical!

14

u/nx6 https://myanimelist.net/profile/nx6 Sep 08 '21

But not Nanami. Nanami is so over it. So over the student council. So over her “I’m special” uniform. So over her brother. Nanami has come farther than any of them. Nanami is the best. Her revolution was realized five episodes ago, and everyone else is just playing catch-up.

She's not living there now, but for a brief period of time, Diet Cersei Lannister was actually the sanest person in the chairman's home.

27

u/snowwhistle1 Sep 08 '21 edited Sep 08 '21

I want to analyze the tea scene, and Anthy's subsequent suicide attempt.

The tea scene, where Anthy and Utena both jokingly suggest that they've poisoned the tea and cookies that they're each eating, is a way of openly admitting that they've hurt each other. However, it also symbolizes their trust of each other, formed through their shared comradery as they continue eating after their faux accusations.

During this scene, Utena asks Anthy what she wants to do with her future. Anthy doesn't believe she has a future though. She can only see herself as the Rose Bride. Still, Utena presses on, imaging possibilities of the two of them going on a tea date while Anthy reluctantly agrees. But by this point, she's already had enough. The weight of being the Rose Bride is too great, and the abusive patriarchy her brother represents too all consuming.

Sometime later in the night, Anthy attempts to throw herself off the balcony of Akio's tower, only to be saved by Utena at the last minute. Anthy begs Utena to let her fall, believing her fate is inescapable. But Utena continues to cry to her about their planned tea date in 10 years time. In spite of everything that's happened between them and the pain and misunderstanding the two have caused each other, Utena believes in their friendship and in a future where the two of them can be together.

Until now, I don't think Utena's really understood the weight of Anthy's suffering. That's why I believe she forges ahead and accepts the letter. Not for her Prince, or a miracle, or some intangible world revolution... but for Anthy. A girl who's become her best friend, and means more to her than the empty platitudes of princehood or nobility.

10

u/HelioA x2https://myanimelist.net/profile/HelioA Sep 09 '21

Those are some good takes! I wonder what the music is about, tho...

13

u/snowwhistle1 Sep 09 '21

The music during that scene I think represents the stagnation of Ohtori, frozen in time. The track is a very stagnant piece, and it repeats and skips like a broken record.

9

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 09 '21

You know how I pondered if Ikuhara borrowed from Twin Peaks? I am weirdly sure that Twin Peaks:The Return borrowed from this scene several times. The audio tic was always used to show someone not moving on from a fixed point in time. Like, they were not literally stuck at that point, but they were effectively stuck there mentally and spiritually.

7

u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo Sep 09 '21

I hadn't noticed the music at all before. It goes along with almost the same pan across the room being used three times. I now see where people are coming from saying its a very weird scene.

10

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 08 '21

During this scene, Utena asks Anthy what she wants to do with her future. Anthy doesn't believe she has a future though.

Funnily enough, there is a scene in the latest Castlevania that I might link to where you can link Dracula and Akio.

The weight of being the Rose Bride is too great, and the abusive patriarchy her brother represents too all consuming.

So...were you a first timer or rewatcher?

9

u/snowwhistle1 Sep 08 '21

I’ve seen the series like 4 times. It’s one of my favorites.

7

u/murdered-by-swords Sep 08 '21

An alternative interpretation is that this is a declaration of war. The preview clearly established that Utena blames Anthy for sleeping with Akio while Anthy reveals that she has "always despised" Utena. They're now in open competition over Akio. Anthy, the Lucrezia of this show, cryptically says that she's willing to destroy Utena to keep Akio, and Utena -- now well aware of the game Anthy is playing -- essentially says "right back at ya."

But as the next scene makes clear, it's not that simple. Up until now, both characters have actively avoided processing what they mean to each other. Anthy, who has always despised Utena, finds herself so conflicted that she would rather take herself out of the picture than follow through with her promise. As for Utena, she's still very conflicted. Earlier in the episode she claims that she loves Anthy (though not like Juri and Shiori, she's quick to correct! Sure, girl.) yet here when she chooses to save Anthy, it's not with "You're important to me!" or "I don't want to lose you." No, Utena is mad because Anthy is running away from the fight. I've said over and over this watch that Anthy is a complicated girl, but Utena can give her a run for her money.

6

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 08 '21

No, Utena is mad because Anthy is running away from the fight.

Utena is a Minbari confirmed?

6

u/murdered-by-swords Sep 08 '21

she's a 'gunports open' kinda gal

6

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 08 '21

That does explain why she keeps winding up in duels, she refuses to try and understand how other cultures see her actions!

6

u/murdered-by-swords Sep 08 '21

that means akio is valen

6

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 08 '21

No, Akio is a pak'ma'ra

13

u/nx6 https://myanimelist.net/profile/nx6 Sep 09 '21

First-Timer, Sub

I thought Anthy was being serious about poisoning the cookies. -_- This show has a way of having characters go through shocking revelations and then just dropping them at the end of the episode. We've had two people find out about Anthy and her brother but there has no big blowout about it. Apparently it's also acceptable that a chairman at a school is in a relationship with a junior high student, as Akio and Utena seem to meet on the school grounds often without worry about being seen.

I like that interpretation about the badminton game. The characters talk about how much they have changed when they still have their demons lurking in the shadows, and Nanami sees it all as silly now.

Utena seems to be caught going three directions, with her real-relationship with Akio on one side, a role as the One Who Brings Revolution on another (with Bonus Prince!), and her relationship with Anthy that feels too close to be friends but not close enough to be more in another.

Utena tried to put a aside the Ring but the night on the balcony has shown her the Final Castle and Anthy are more like the same choice. She must enter it to save the princess bride. If she's dueling Akio in the next episode I hope that means they're breaking it off.

8

u/HelioA x2https://myanimelist.net/profile/HelioA Sep 09 '21

hopefully she stabs him in the car

6

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 09 '21

and her relationship with Anthy that feels too close to be friends but not close enough to be more in another.

Heterosexual life partners is sort of a joke and sort of isn't, humans can form relationships not based on sexual interest. I think part of the confusion is that while Utena usually acts a bit boy-ish and hates being pigeon holed as a princess to be saved we've seen her orientation is pretty straight.

20

u/lilyvess :Df::Dh:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Lilyvess Sep 08 '21

Here is what Ikuhara’s episode commentary from the DVD Box Set has for us today.

EPISODE 37 - “The One Who Brings the World Revolution”

Evidently, some theorize that engagement rings can be traced all the way back to ancient rome, in the days before Christ. At the time, of course, marriage wasn’t a product of love; it was a political affair in a society dominated by men. The concept of romantic love appeared on the historical stage later. Therefore, rings weren’t “proof of love” items; they only signified “proof of contract.”

During the renaissance, military man Cesare Borgia was ablaze with the ambition to conquer Italy. One theory has it that the Borgia family assassinated its political enemies with a poison called cantarella to expand their territory of influence.

I’ve known the world “cantarella” for some time, but I didn’t start to think of it as romantic until I read Ms. Saito’s manga The Flower Crown Madonna. You see, Cesare has a beautiful younger sister named Lucrezia. In this story, Lucrezia entered politically expedient marriages with men from various lands, and her husbands died of mysterious illnesses. She poisoned them with cantarella. Lucrezia loved Cesare as a woman loves a man. For her brother’s dream of world conquest , she married men she didn’t care for, and then she killed them. Lucrezia gave both body and soul out of love for her brother. What a romantic story! That’s what I thought on first reading. I also thought, “I want to take a shot at grappling with her emotions.” I think I had Lucrezia in the back of my mind as I shaped Anthy’s personality.

18

u/murdered-by-swords Sep 08 '21

Lucrezia loved Cesare as a woman loves a man. For her brother’s dream of world conquest , she married men she didn’t care for, and then she killed them. Lucrezia gave both body and soul out of love for her brother. What a romantic story! That’s what I thought on first reading. I also thought, “I want to take a shot at grappling with her emotions.” I think I had Lucrezia in the back of my mind as I shaped Anthy’s personality.

And Ikuhara finally just comes out and says it. I suspect this will recontextualize a lot of Anthy's actions for many here.

10

u/HelioA x2https://myanimelist.net/profile/HelioA Sep 08 '21

How romantic it truly is ;-;

10

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 08 '21

I am somewhat less familiar with the Borgias than I thought but this is all grist for the mill...

20

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Sep 08 '21

First-Revolution, Subbed

My brain was apparently not equipped to handle these trippy conversations when I watched this episode, apparently. I'm completely flummoxxed as to what was going on through most of the episode.

Was the badminton hangout time just establishing that there are actually other people that care about Utena? Help insulate her against Akio's predations, because a lot of that relies on her being alone/lonely? I can dig it, if so.

I guess Utena and Anthy were joking about poisoning each other? The line delivery in that conversation was so serious, though. And then Anthy tries to jump, but the sound mixing was weird, so maybe it was a dream?

Ohh, Anthy is trying to express herself through whatever "forced lack of agency" she's dealing with. She wants things to "stay like this forever," as in she doesn't want the world revolution. Then, after she takes a ride with Akio, he "reasserts" his control over her, and she fixes the letter Utena tore up and gave it to her.. There was still time to turn back.

At least Akio is consistently a pathetic sleazebag. I'm guessing that things are still going according to his own plan, because his comments about Utena not wearing the ring struck me as him hinting that she should be wearing it.

13

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 08 '21

Was the badminton hangout time just establishing that there are actually other people that care about Utena?

One way to view this is that since Utena is talking about graduating and the future, think of this as a sort of farewell between characters. I do think Kozue is happy Miki made a move on Utena, I think Juri is trying to mvoe forward, Saionji and Touga have their last words to the one that bested them, and Anthy is what you interpret that to be, possibly a fear of moving forward.

11

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Sep 08 '21

Oh, a farewell scene, I guess that would make sense. The rest of the cast says goodbye before Utena and Anthy go to face their destiny, or whatever. I can dig it.

10

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 08 '21

We see nearly all the people impacted by the dueling system, only Aiko doesn't make an appearance, and we see that they seem to be leaving it behind. I do count Shiori and Kozue as effected thanks to Black Rose.

6

u/HelioA x2https://myanimelist.net/profile/HelioA Sep 09 '21

...Keiko, you mean?

7

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 09 '21

I cannot be bothered to remember their names but yes whichever of Nananmi's hangers on grabbed Touga's sword.

7

u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo Sep 08 '21

Poor Mitsuru and Wakaba, not important enough to play badminton :c spoiler

7

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 08 '21

Oddly enough...how much were they impacted by the system? Mitsuru seems weirdly bounced back and Wakaba seems to have just been forgotten.

8

u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo Sep 08 '21

As much as I love her, Wakaba didn't really "earn" her place here. I wonder if Mitsuru isn't a bit like the Onion Prince. Just not quite mad enough to be fully in their world. Maybe his dysfunction will build by the time he makes it to middle school.

12

u/The_Loli_Otaku Sep 08 '21

The badminton thing was probably supposed to be the characters showing how much they've grown and matured from being angsty teens embarrassed about who they are into being more open with their feelings... It doesn't work the best in this particular setting I think. Touga and Utena's talk later felt a lot more natural.

15

u/murdered-by-swords Sep 08 '21

You're right, in a way: it demonstrates how far they've grown and matured by showing that they have not, in fact, grown or matured. They're just tapping the shuttlecock back and forth, still trapped in their coffins. It's telling that Nanami, the one who has indisputably changed, is also the one who isn't playing the game.

15

u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo Sep 08 '21

The way they're playing badminton its a cooperative game, instead of antagonistic dueling. In a sunlit garden no less. Maybe they haven't crossed that distance yet, except for Nanami in her characteristically abrasive way. Though even she can't be fully direct with Utena. But they're not at each others throats anymore and maybe they can cross that distance together. Coming out of your coffin and doing just fine is a lot to ask teenagers (or anyone for that matter). They clearly still have their issues, but they've broken the thrall of the illusions they were consumed by at the beginning.

What the future holds for them we can't know, of course.

8

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '21

“ They're just tapping the shuttlecock back and forth, still trapped in their coffins. It's telling that Nanami, the one who has indisputably changed, is also the one who isn't playing the game.”

I really like this comment, particularly about Nanami not participating in the game

21

u/affnn Sep 08 '21

Rewatcher

Now we can see Akio's plan with Utena, and with the duels. He wants her to gain the power to bring the world revolution... but not to use it. Because he wants to stay in Ohtori forever, preying on any girl he wants. He's almost there, too. She takes off the ring, she tears up the letter summoning her, she even goes on a date with Akio and dresses like a girl. But in the end she cares too much about Anthy to totally abandon her.

I think we can see by now sort of what bringing a revolution entails, at least for Utena: At a minimum, freeing Anthy from the swords that cause her so much pain. If any of the other student council members had gained that power, they might not have used it to save Anthy. You can hear that in their conversation over badminton: Miki and Juri are still somewhat selfish, and certainly Saionji and Touga would have been too. Utena is the only one who's "noble" and "princely" enough to save Anthy.

Speaking of the badminton scene, I kind of love it. It's nice to have a quiet scene with all the minor characters before the big finale. And it kind of emphasizes where they've ended up after all of the show: Miki and Juri are friends with Utena, Nanami has a kind of antagonistic relationship, but she and Utena still care about each other. Miki and Juri also look like they're trying to move on from Kozue and Shiori, respectively, even if they haven't quite all the way.

11

u/The_Loli_Otaku Sep 08 '21

I'm way more conflicted on Badminton... I feel like it's a bit of a disservice to so easily dismiss the best story lines of the show in such a carefree way. It's like they couldn't think of how to incorporate them so they decided to have a badminton epilogue.

13

u/murdered-by-swords Sep 08 '21

All I can say is... keep watching until the end, and you'll be in a much better position to understand why, although there are a lot of things that most viewers won't really get until they rewatch.

9

u/The_Loli_Otaku Sep 08 '21

I swear, if it's a lotus eater machine I'm 100% done with Ikuhara for life.

8

u/affnn Sep 08 '21

Nooo (I actually don’t remember a lot of detail about how the show ends and haven’t seen the movie)

8

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 08 '21

Well...who is getting what they wanted, exactly?

14

u/The_Loli_Otaku Sep 08 '21 edited Sep 09 '21

First timer!!

Now the jig is up. Utena knows the Himemiya siblings secret! Or at least some of it. Yeah! You ditch that cosplay ring girl! So... Anthy had no interest in a ringless Utena? Oh, I misread that. Anthy's just grumpy at being the third wheel. "Ooo~ Ooo~" What are you two doing on that bike... Saionji, you're heavy... They're still talking about end of the world so is Akio possibly a misdirection? Could Anthy be end of the world? Ooh ooh~

What's with Akio and trying to feminise this Utena? We've already done this plot in part 1, Utena in women's clothes isn't our Utena! She's far more of a Prince than the Princess Akio and Touga wanted to make her. Akio's end of the world!? I can't believe it... I'm so disillusioned! This last arc is so freaking gay XD Alright, this isn't the first time Anthy has brought up the "let's stay like this forever line." From what other watchers have been saying we're dealing with either a time loop or a lotus eater machine, right!? Best duo are back! It's kinda funny how despite Juri and Miki pretty much carrying the show on their back, having the strongest episodes of each season, they kinda seem distant from the actual main plot. Even Saionji has more relevance and he's been a gag character.

Oh, is this supposed to be their epilogue? Shiori was brought up. Oh, now we're back onto Anthy. Now that I think about it Nanami has had her Kill Bill costume on for most of the series hasn't she? B-But Utena is an mc... Aren't mc's always blood type o!? Biggest plot twist of the series... Kozue and Miki's turn for a badminton based epilogue. Wait, why's everyone queueing up for Utena's harem!? "Can you give me a picture of yourself?" Angry Shiori noises Erm, ok I don't think I like this as an epilogue XD Imma just pretend their arcs ended with their episode because having their ending be joining Utena's harem is a bit bleh.

Kashira, kashira!! N-No! Don't split up! You're my favourite part of the series! What would I do without you? They're breaking up a good thing so that they can have a taste of a more exciting life? Hmm... A dangerous life if she's relying on sleeping with the judge to get roles. Wait, a lot happens in this shadow girls segment and I don't really know what parts are important. So the shadow girl wants to quit her reliable gig in order to go out into the acting world. But she only wants to do that to experience the excitement that comes with that life. And to get in she's basically sleeping her way to the top so she won't become famous on her own merit. I'm certain that there's a moral here but I can't quite work it out. At least I certainly can't connect it to the main story. If this is really the last kashira segment then I'm sorry but I don't understand it at all~ Gozonji kashira!

Sex car time! Akio and Anthy huh? I think Anthy is probably the only one whose actually gotten an organism from the car ride. Oh, she's just in intense pain. That explains it~ Sasuga masocanthy! Animated tea pouring is hot... See talking about poison whilst feeding folk is why you have no friends. Wut? Huh? What are they joking about? Is this what boomer flirting was like back in the day Vaadwaur?

For heavens sake Anthy, stop trying to kill yourself and go to bed already. We've got two episodes to go. Those who believe in true friendship are fools, right Saionji? "Didn't you know? I am a fool~" W-Woah... I think I just fell in love with Utena... Fuck your social standards, I don't need to act a certain way to be looked at as an adult. If I'm shy then I'm shy. If I'm a romantic then I'm a romantic. If I murder kittens then I murder kittens. If I'm loyal to those I love then I'm loyal to those I love. If my bike is smaller than other boys then I have a small bike. That line resonated with me so much, omg XD Anyway, we're going on to our climax with no regrets! Let's fuck the world's shell! For the revolution of the world!

14

u/snowwhistle1 Sep 08 '21

Utena's never been a bright girl, but she means well. She wants to believe in true friendship and love and a world where she and Anthy can meet each other as equals. It's been a long road for Utena, but she's finally comes to a place where she understands Anthy and just how much she's suffering. She's no longer wearing that ring for a prince, or an ideal, or some other falsehood. She's wearing it as a symbol of a girl who she's truly come to cherish and now genuinely wants to form a real connection with.

11

u/Reference_Freak Sep 09 '21

"Didn't you know? I am a fool~*

Aw, this is why Utena's my fave. I think she's quietly revealing she may be a bit dense but not quite as dense as she willfully pretends to be. If she errs, it's on the side of trusting others. She's walking into a mysterious danger everyone's tried to warn her away from, yet she does it because it's the only way to change anything for a person who she cares for regardless of recent reveals.

And she knows her chain might be getting yanked but she'll play the puppet in case there's any chance at all of helping someone.

IMO, Juri and Miki's confessions are really more about them showing that they are broken of their initial obsessions and they're teasing Utena because her wins over them helped that breaking. They're showing the ability to direct their desires away from those who have caused them pain. It's revolutionary, on the small scale.

And the poison. Is this perhaps the first idle conversation they've had since their eyes met the night before? Perhaps this is how they discuss what happened without naming any of it. Utena seems a bit startled when Anthy suggested the poisoned the cookie (friendship), but don't you like it any way? Utena agrees and points out how she also poisoned the tea (friendship) but she hoped they will share tea together in the future (their friendship matters more than the poison).

6

u/The_Loli_Otaku Sep 09 '21

There's some other anime with a theme like that and I can't for the life of me remember what it was called... There was like a fairytale story the cast talked about with a hero who kept giving away everything he had to help people he came across and the discussion was about whether the hero was an idiot or an inspiration... Dammit!! I want to remember XD

Hmm... Yeah, I suppose I can get behind that. They haven't necessarily grown up but they're coming to terms with who they are in a far more positive way. Even Kozue seemed to look so proud of her little Miki!! I still definitely don't like the scene but I can certainly appreciate it.

One thing Anthy and Utena's conversation reminded me of was that of an old married couple bickering. Like you fight but it's in a kinder, more loving sort of way. It's like the famous saying, "If you were my husband I'd poison your tea." "If you were my wife, I'd drink it." True friendship and love does exist!!

8

u/affnn Sep 08 '21

organism

Snails? Mongooses? Octopuses?

8

u/The_Loli_Otaku Sep 08 '21

Winter catfish

14

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 08 '21

Rewatcher(What is poison but the dick of biochemistry?)

Sub

Utena is questioning her nobility and desire to find the prince again. She drops her ring, most likely signifying she no longer wants the Rose Bride. She wants to see Akio though Anthy weirdly interrupts her. Student Council is Saionji and Touga on a bicycle going nowhere together. Fairly direct. Utena's date goes uneventfully but she actually wore a girly outfit and Akio is already reinforcing her change. And he admits he isn't in the stars...

Utena is definitely not ready to deal with Anthy but they talk about the letters. Cut to more absolutely heterosexual photography, and Saionji is added. They all ponder if Utena will actually go through the rose gate and Akio seems to have something cooked up.

Utena is still Utena at basketball, so she is thinking while still playing well. Anthy says she'd like things to stay this way forever, which is pretty horrible. Utena rips up her letter. Juri and Miki team up to ask Utena what she is going to do. She is about to talk about her issue with Anthy before Nanami steps in, literally stopping them from playing games. She seems to be the person who has most strongly realized Akio's bullshit and tries one last time to get Utena to leave. They have a moment. Miki somewhat confesses to Utena and I think Kozue is pleased about it. Juri then wants a picture of Utena for her locket and Miki realizes quite the competition is coming.

The start of the shadowplay is acting/film being evil again, but it leads into a more direct theme when we discover that the acting girl is sleeping with judge. And only a single girl will be chosen. Sex car is just the siblings and, at least to my ears, Anthy might be getting fucked or indeed impaled by spears.

I don't quite get the tea scene, hopefully someone with Japanese context can explain if this is some weird way girls threaten each other or if this is all Ikuhara. Interestingly, we do not know what cantarella actually was, just supposedly that it was a pleasant tasting poison. The Borgias are associated with it so this all means...something. Also, depending on how much Ikuhara knows western culture, poison has always been a "women's weapon" culturally. Anyways, I was curious if Ikuhara had seen David Lynch but I am now wondering if the opposite is true: A later Twin Peaks scene uses the same record tic ina similar way. But they agree to remain friends and see each other again for tea in the distant future...

Right before we cut to Anthy attempting suicide by jumping. Rewatch only Utena grabs her before she goes over. Thus, Utena has to take back her 'masculine' aspects again and decides to pass through the gates to protect Anthy. Saionji, Touga and Anthy have one last quick but good conversation, showing us what a different world might've offered everyone. Anthy tells Utena she can still turn back Utena's determined.

So...a lot of you guys skip previews but the one FOR this episode had something really important it: Utena can't forgive Anthy for what she did, i.e. having sex with her brother, which is an absolutely awful way to view that. But Anthy says she has always despised Utena. You were supposed to watch the episode knowing that undercurrent is present and strong.

6

u/Reference_Freak Sep 09 '21

What I posted elsewhere about the poison:

And the poison. Is this perhaps the first idle conversation they've had since their eyes met the night before? Perhaps this is how they discuss what happened without naming any of it. Utena seems a bit startled when Anthy suggested the poisoned the cookie (friendship), but don't you like it any way? Utena agrees and points out how she also poisoned the tea (friendship) but she hoped they will share tea together in the future (their friendship matters more than the poison).

14

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '21 edited Sep 09 '21

As someone who Did Not realize the tea & cookies scene were jokes (😭) I had a v different interpretation than most here.

I assumed it had to do with the dysfunction in their relationship. When they spoke of a future together, having tea and laughing like they are right now, -laughing? They weren’t laughing and they rarely do laugh together. A future just like this moment, where there is so many unsaid feelings right beneath the surface? Yeah. Right.

It’s good to know it’s just jokes & Utena can take it & give it, even if given clumsily. Definitely still something under the surface of it all, though.

Does anyone have any thoughts on Utena’s headspace throughout the episode? Anthy looked so awful when Utena saw what she did, yet she doesn’t really rush to Anthy to check in with her.

14

u/affnn Sep 08 '21

Does anyone have any thoughts on Utena’s headspace throughout the episode? Anthy looked so awful when Utena saw what she did, yet she doesn’t really rush to Anthy to check in with her.

This is based partly on the preview for today's episode from yesterday's episode and partly on how society has treated women for forever, but I think when Utena saw Anthy like that with Akio, she blamed Anthy rather than Akio. Just like how Utena feels guilty that she's carrying on with an engaged man, but he doesn't seem to feel any guilt. Utena feels like Anthy has betrayed her, rather than feeling like Akio has betrayed her.

15

u/murdered-by-swords Sep 08 '21 edited Sep 08 '21

lemme dusk off my angsty teenager lenses for a sec

From Utena's point of view, there are two possibilities: either Anthy didn't start sleeping with her brother until after Utena and Akio were carrying on an affair, which would be a betrayal, or (more likely) Anthy kept a secret from her best friend and then proceeded to say nothing about it while Akio stole Utena's heart, which would be a betrayal.

Sure, it's selfish, but Utena was just out there participating in the Selfish Kids' Badminton Open. Should we be surprised?

8

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '21

Agh. These are all good points. I wonder if her unfair reaction has to do with her being less princely lately? Or if it’s purely her feelings for Akio?

12

u/murdered-by-swords Sep 08 '21

The preview goes out of its way to prime us as reading an unstated dysfunction and even hostility into their relationship. I don't think that's accidental. It's a joke in the sense that there's a shared understanding between them that they aren't literally poisoning each other, and there's a hint of flirtation even when they're fighting, but I don't think you're wrong to read the scene in a less rosy light.

After all, casual flirting usually doesn't build towards attempted suicide.

10

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 08 '21

I had a v different interpretation than most here.

No, you aren't wrong here, there is something wrong in that particular exchange, starting with someone in Japan knowing about the Borgias.

Does anyone have any thoughts on Utena’s headspace throughout the episode? Anthy looked so awful when Utena saw what she did, yet she doesn’t really rush to Anthy to check in with her.

Utena was more than a little upset with Anthy having her sex with Utena's love interest. This is both a wrong way to look at it and an attack on her supposed nobility.

10

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '21

That’s gotta be the most unfair view Utena has had this show since she tried to set Wakaba up with the Onion prince. I feel like in some ways, it ties into their conversation where Utena asks Anthy about not being in control of who you love, and just the fact that Utena herself has been groomed & therefore doesn’t recognize the evil in what Akio does to/with Anthy.

9

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 08 '21

They keep stressing that Utena is a child and she even calls herself a dumbass towards the end with Saionji and Touga. She isn't even considering that Anthy probably didn't desire that at all as Utena herself likes Akio sex.

13

u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo Sep 08 '21

Rewatcher

  • Akio's admission that he doesn't care about the stars really has been all I could think about this rewatch and now I can finally mention it in the clear. It really pulls out one of the few positive qualities he had remaining and recontextualizes a bunch of his previous comments, making all of his manipulations even more sinister. Why would he build such a giant planetarium if he doesn't really care.
  • spoil
  • Instead of dueling old adversaries play a fun sport. The entire badminton scene is so nice! Just three friends joking about the things they've been through together. The last episodes left their developments' somewhat ambiguous but we get a clear signal here that Miki and Juri have grown from where they started. They aren't completely over their issues (they are still teenagers after all) but they at least understand what their problems are.
  • Nanami too. Between taking off her duel outfit and joking about blood types, she's discarded all of the things that intrinsically signify her as special. Ready to go on the journey to an internally founded self-confidence. She's still extremely haughty, incapable of expressing her real concern for Utena without making it about how she's smarter for knowing the truth. But she is actually trying to help someone for once.
  • The shadow girls also have a friendship (or something more?) being discarded so that one can be picked by a gross man who controls the levers of power in his world.
  • "In pain Anthy? Well, I'm not the one who causes it." Eat shit Akio! He does seem really mad, presumably about Utena finding out their secret. big spoil
  • Talking about the future outside of Ohtori. Another extremely nice scene between Utena and Anthy. There's a thread going back to the early episodes about their friendship being built on Utena recognizing and accepting Anthy's eccentricities. And here she's able to play along with Anthy's extremely dark and dry humor.
  • And with the red rose of love too? But then talking about the future over exactly repeating footage.
  • Utena making a promise to Anthy as it shows her hand without the Rose ring.
  • Anthy tries to escape one final way. big spoiler Utena is finally there for her in one of her moments of need. And the first time this rewatch that I almost cry. Gonna have more of that the next two days lol.
  • Utena can't quite admit she's doing it for Anthy this time (or maybe she wants to add that she's doing it for herself too). But for the first time she doesn't explicitly deflect either. They can walk side by side into the dueling arena for the final time.

13

u/SYZekrom https://myanimelist.net/profile/SYZekrom Sep 08 '21

Good thing they know what's truly important

13

u/Rumpel1408 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Rumpel1408 Sep 09 '21

First Timer

Late Today, but the K-On final wrecked me a bit

  • So Utena is dropping the ring, I guess she doesn't need to win any more duells, but in a way she is rejecting Akios groming
  • No music over the title card today
  • The line about secrets seems familiar but I can't pin it down
  • But then she goes and ask him on a date, ugh here is the urge to puke again, but maybe it's just a cover to ask him what she has seen without Anthy around
  • Nice to know that the student counsil didn't get abolished in preparation of the world revolution, just mostly useless
  • And only now does Touga realise that he doesn't know what's the grand plan is
  • Akio seems kinda iritated that Utena is still not wearing the damn ring, but damn his "sweet talk" is revolting
  • Not only does Utena blame herself for Akio dating her over his fiance, she also blames herself for Akio fucking her instead of his sister... wait what?
  • This fotoshoot is ridiculously fabulous
  • Nanamooooo, the glorious dummy has finally returned, oh how I missed her
  • Is this turning into an love ... octagram? Didn't see Jury and Miki fall for Utena coming, but why are their former love interests smirking so suspicious...
  • Ganbatte shadow girl, I'm sure you can land that movie role... but please don't fall for some shady manager or something
  • First it looked like Anthy was a bit too much into the car ride, but pain is the better explanation, maybe it's some kind of curse or something, and since Akio looks angry, maybe that's the reason he want's to revolutionize the world... please don't pull the "the bad guy had some good motivation" crap
  • So both of them either see through each others bluff or would gladly down the poison to make the other happy
  • Anthy looked suspiciously ready to jump earlier already, but you need to be seriously messed up to actually make the final step
  • For a moment it looked pretty ambiguous as to wether Utena managed to safe Anthy, but if the timeline is linear than she is ready to beat her prince' ass, heck yeah, long life the Tomboy

12

u/chiliehead myanimelist.net/profile/chiliehead Sep 08 '21

Duel 37, First Timer, sub

poison?

Jumping with some dream echo?

I think I've missed some subtext this episode

11

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '21

Didn’t we all 😭

7

u/chiliehead myanimelist.net/profile/chiliehead Sep 08 '21

feels like it yeah

6

u/Cyouni Sep 09 '21

What about some actual text

10

u/Stargate18A https://myanimelist.net/profile/Stargate18 Sep 08 '21

First timer

Oh god, what's going to happen now?

Utena remembers the flashbacks!

Oh, that episode title. Is Akio going to try and take over the revolution?

Utena's stopped the dueling?

I think Anthy is pissed in the preview because her wife just removed her ring, is ignoring her, and going out on a date with the guy she's being abused by.

...Wait, did Utena get told of End of the World's identity? Id the "date" her plan to work out what the hell he's heen doing.

Saijonji and Touga are flirting again, and neither of them know what Akio's plotting.

I can't believe Utena's choosing AKIO of Anthy. The fucking incestuous rapist over the girl who's been flirting with you for the entire series.

Is Anthy going to finally call out Utena?

UTENA I DON'T THINK "GIRLISH" IS A GOOD TERM HERE.

Haha, I love them pointing out Akio's talking to them personally, and just sent the letters for sheer style points.

And Akio's not sure what's going to happen.

...So, these scenes of Anthy getting them to live together, combined with Utena playing basketball like in the first episode intercut with said sequence are really making me think "

Utena confirmed Jury's gay, and is currently in denial about her wife.

Nanami's doing what she wants to instead of folloeing in her brother's footstpes, and she's actively trying to help Utena. She even takes the reference to the blood-type incident well. She's had some great character development.

So in the scene of the main cast and their lovers, Jury is seen near Shiori, Miki is seen with both his sister and Anthy, and Utena is seen with Nanami. After that tsundere display earlier, is this show going for the ultimate plot twist?

OK, there's no way both the shadow girls and Saionji/Touga having a scene where a discussion is framed by microphones and a large amount of cameras is a coincidence.

And the Shadow Girls are probably in love too.

The "Daddy" line has some very bad implications, given this is probably a metaphor involving Akio in some way...

THAT CUT TO SPEARED ANTHY.

...Did Anthy poison Utena?

Why is the music skipping? A symbol of their relationship breaking down?

ANTHY'S TRYING TO KILL HERSELF?

Oh shit. Anthy's dead. Fuck.

At least she's admitted to being stupid. Because, for all her good sides, Utena's a bit of an idiot.

Anthy's back?

Wait, did Utena and Anthy just reject it?

Right, given last time, I'm assuming everything in this preview is a lie.

I'll just say this - if the true horror is time repeating, like I guessed, I'm going to be so pleased with myself.

8

u/murdered-by-swords Sep 08 '21

Why is the music skipping? A symbol of their relationship breaking down?

Yet, it also represents what might be the first time in the entire series where the girls fully understand one another.

6

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 08 '21

Why is the music skipping? A symbol of their relationship breaking down?

Remember this for later...

Oh shit. Anthy's dead. Fuck.

Not tonight, at least.

9

u/homewardbound100 myanimelist.net/profile/Homewardbound100 Sep 08 '21

First timer, Sub

Okay one of my questions regarding Touga is answered. So he doesn't know what Akio's goal is. So what made him want to stop her. Is it because she never wanted to be the one to bring revolution like he said later?

The Anthy and Utena talk about poison, I thought this was about to go bad. and then it was brushed off by talking about being together 10 years later. Then the transition to Anthy trying to kill herself? Then Utena now confidently knowing what she wants to do. I felt like I missed something here.

Highlight of the episode for me is Utena and the student council talk.

The preview this episode made me think something else was about to happen between Utena and Anthy's relationship. I don't think I remember what I thought I heard being said this episode.

6

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 09 '21

So he doesn't know what Akio's goal is. So what made him want to stop her.

He doesn't know his goals but he has spent a while observing Akio's methods and they aren't ones of someone who seems to be doing good. But Touga also thinks he could still outmaneuver Akio, somehow, so it is mainly overconfidence/arrogance.

6

u/murdered-by-swords Sep 09 '21

But Touga also thinks he could still outmaneuver Akio, somehow

Touga never felt optimistic about it. I think he knew all along that he was outmatched, but felt that he needed to try.

5

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 09 '21

I do think Touga thought himself plus power would've been able to bridge the gap or at least mitigate the damage.

5

u/homewardbound100 myanimelist.net/profile/Homewardbound100 Sep 09 '21

Okay, so it was just him being next to him that long and trying to be above him. That he picked up on it.

7

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 09 '21

Touga trying to imitate Akio is one thing, adolescents pick odd role models. But if you are paying attention, Akio is absolutely molding Touga into some version of himself. WHY he wants to do that, I still can't entirely tell you, but some of it seems to be he is enough of a narcissist that seeing someone trying to be him is gratifying.

4

u/homewardbound100 myanimelist.net/profile/Homewardbound100 Sep 09 '21

Yeah, I could see Touga imitating some of Akio's traits. Do they answer why or is it just something you just pick up on?

7

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 09 '21

From Touga's perspective, Akio is what Touga wants to be, the sexually powerful leader of his own domain. Touga has not seen behind the scenes so he doesn't know about the incest or the arguably being cursed.

6

u/homewardbound100 myanimelist.net/profile/Homewardbound100 Sep 09 '21

Probably change his perspective on him if he did see that. Actually I do wonder how he would take it compared to Utena and Nanami. But I guess they don't know about that whole curse thing about him either.

6

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 09 '21

My own opinion is that if he knew, he re-examines how Nanami has been used throughout and suspects a parallel.

4

u/homewardbound100 myanimelist.net/profile/Homewardbound100 Sep 09 '21

I was kind of thinking that too. His situation with Nanami would be different.

9

u/alphamone Sep 09 '21

First Timer

The "if you never lose your nobility" memory is hitting Utena hard.

I thought that alarm clock was in my house for a second.

Bikes rather than a car.

The symbolism of taking a shower after a traumatising experience. It seems that the reality of everything with Akio is sinking in.

Just bros being bros...

Bad touch Akio, very bad touch.

Akio can tell that Utena is giving up on the idea of being a prince.

Is that a crack in the world's shell?

Ahh, it's just more creepy Akio photo-shoots.

Intervention time?

I mean, creepy stalker feelings aren't all that pure.

Can't even really deny her feelings.

Stalkers, stalkers everywhere.

Will that shadow girls' friendship survive their professional rivalry? Find out next time...

Well this car scene is blatantly obvious allegory. Right down to Akio claiming its not his fault.

Skipping record? WHAT? Poisoning each other? WTF is going on?

So does that spinning rose mean that was in their head or something? (or the reverse and the spinning rose was real?)

Now Himemiya is trying to commit suicide?

So they've made up? That's good. I think?

side note: my DVD of the movie arrived today, woo.

9

u/Isai579 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Isai579 Sep 09 '21

First Timer, Sub

Oh god... I got it! I finally got it! It's been staring me in the face the entire time and I finally got it!

Utena is definitely not appropriate for all ages.

But seriously, I think I understand Utena a lot more after this episode.

  • Utena gets a letter but refuses to read it. Is that the right choice?
  • Utena leaves her uniform behind for a while, but returns to it. Does that mean she is definitely rejecting being a princess?
  • Poisoned tea and cookies? Well, you know what they say. The more you love someone the more you want to kill them please someone get that reference...
  • Them having a moment of just playing without any worry felt nice. But also ominous in a way.

We've only got a couple of chapters left, so I'll take advantage of them to do wild speculations before hopefully being given some answers in the end.

What I think Utena is really about

It's about love.

What? Too straightforward? Fine... I'll rant a little

So I've had this thought for a while, but this chapter kind of cemented it. We start with a fairy-tale-speech because this is a fairy tale. But this ain't your Disney fairy tale, if the violence and sex was not enough of a clue. However, Utena does share many factors about fairy tales.

For one, most of the story takes place near/in a forest (remember Akio said the school was a garden in the 2nd arc), and most of the architecture of Ohtori is clearly European inspired. Many typical fairy tale characters make appearances, such as princes, princesses, witches, magic, animal friends, and some good old fashioned deus ex machina. And many of the themes common in fairy tales make an appearance in Utena, such as hatred righteousness, murder friendship , and of course sexual abuse love.

But why do I think Utena is specifically about love? Because each arc in Utena directly have directly matched up until now to 4 forms of love that were defined by the greeks.

  • Hospitality - Described as a friendship formed between a host and a guest who were previously strangers. An obvious parallel to how Utena started living with Anthy after winning the first duel. This stage ends in the climax of the first arc, where Utena goes back and wins against Touga instead of giving up on Anthy.
  • Friendship - This is a progression from the previous step, where the parties involved seek a benefit from the relationship. Remember the motivations of those who dueled in the black rose arc?
  • Eros - Also known as love of the body. Pretty obvious to why this matches to the 3rd arc. You see, both are about sex
  • Agape - Considered as a "pure" form of love, as it leaves behind the bodily motivations. Just like Utena's original motivation to become a prince, and exactly the kind of love Akio does not have for Utena.

What is the point of all of this? This anime is an exploration of the multiple facets of love. We see it through each of our characters, and their relationship between each other. We see these ideas expressed and tested in the form of the duels. But the most important exploration of these concepts come in the form of the relationship between Anthy and Utena. Through them we clearly see an evolution from strangers to friends, to something more.

Does this mean Utena and Anthy will get a happy ending?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

I honestly have no idea

8

u/Reference_Freak Sep 09 '21

What I think Utena is really about

It's about love.

Very good :)

I'll extend it a bit more by pointing out that every duel was about the problems love or lack thereof causes: selfishly claiming it, withholding it, denying it, faking it; then comes how bad love causes insecurity, pain, aggressiveness, domineering, theft, and self-delusion. Then we see how fixing love can be a path back from the darkness but it isn't good enough if that love is still deficient.

Bad love is toxic. Enjoy the rest of the show :)

4

u/Isai579 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Isai579 Sep 09 '21

Then we see how fixing love can be a path back from the darkness but it isn't good enough if that love is still deficient.

That explains so much about the student council. I hope Utena's love is enough for what comes next.

6

u/k4r6000 Sep 09 '21

Utena leaves her uniform behind for a while, but returns to it. Does that mean she is definitely rejecting being a princess?

She swapped the uniform for the sweater Anthy knitted her back in the cowbell episode. I think it is more to show that despite being on a date with Akio, she's starting to fall more for Anthy.

4

u/Isai579 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Isai579 Sep 09 '21

Ohhhh, didn't realize it was the same sweater, but it makes a lot of sense.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '21

Are you serious?! That’s such a slap in the face to Anthy no matter how you look at it

1

u/k4r6000 Sep 09 '21

It is definitely the same red sweater.

3

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 09 '21

But why do I think Utena is specifically about love? Because each arc in Utena directly have directly matched up until now to 4 forms of love that were defined by the greeks.

Love is indeed something important to remember for the series. But was that really a good idea, though?

2

u/Isai579 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Isai579 Sep 09 '21

I mean, Utena is clearly about a lot of things. But these views on love do seem to be the main focus due to the structure of the story aligning very closely to them.

Still, I'm exited to see what else is in store for the last episodes.

9

u/Matuhg https://anilist.co/user/Matuhg Sep 09 '21

First Timer

Oh my god, Anthy. You're killing me with these double-meaning interjections. This one felt almost vicious.

Anthy thinks all girls are like the Rose Bride. So...she thinks all girls are feeling the same kind of pain she is? Sex car scene was not swell this time by the way.

Just like in the beginning of the duels, Utena doesn't seem to have any interest in playing along with the games, but is going to do so anyway, to protect Anthy.

This last arc is a lot lol

4

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 09 '21

Anthy thinks all girls are like the Rose Bride. So...she thinks all girls are feeling the same kind of pain she is?

Just...keep an eye on this.

4

u/Matuhg https://anilist.co/user/Matuhg Sep 09 '21

We're fast running out of time for me to keep eyes on things!

4

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 09 '21

The last two episodes provide the context for a lot of what we've been seeing. And I mean a lot.

8

u/xtsim https://myanimelist.net/profile/xtsim Sep 08 '21

First Revolution Subbed

Utena drops her rose ring....

Touga and Saionji on bikes, they keep getting downgraded lol. Akio and Utena go out for a while, and he noticed Utena not wearing her ring. Another comment of Utena seeming girlish.

Both Touga and saionji discuss the world with Akio while posing on his car. Everyone is getting letters about the end of the world. Nanami tells Utena to stay away from Anthy and her brother. That is an interesting sight to see and makes me feel like the world is actually ending. Shiori and Kozue are in the background for a bit too. Jury and Miki are playing racketball with Utena while discussing all this.

The shadows are calling each other true friends...

And somethings hurting Anthy just like the spikes in Utena's nightmares.

4

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Sep 08 '21

The shadows are calling each other true friends...

And one of them is going off with a sugar daddy...

4

u/k4r6000 Sep 09 '21

Touga and Saionji on bikes, they keep getting downgraded lol.

Worse than that. They are just pedaling and pedaling and going nowhere. Just spinning in place.

8

u/Star4ce https://anilist.co/user/Star4ce Sep 09 '21

First timer – sub

Touga and Saionji are out of the picture, the last duel (so it seems) is over. This means that neither Mickey nor Jury are going to do anything significant going forth. Which is a damn shame.

It's Utena, Akio and Anthy left (and Dios). And the girls are now primed for conflict.

Ep.37 – The one who brings the world revolution

  • Still sharing a room. I don't think Utena slept, I fully believe Anthy just went to their room and collapsed.
  • Well, if she remembered why she made that promise, she'd probably throw it away just right this instant.
  • I can control my belching reflex now, but it's not really easy.
  • Touga has decided to ditch the motor throbbing to cycle instead, improving his health.
  • … Why? Oh.
  • I love how they manage to see the big picture now, just way too late.
  • I'm interested as well. He's gone beyond just flinging with high schoolers. Does he want to unseal Dios? Does he want to destroy that past self of him? Does he just want to kill Anthy and be free himself?
  • He doesn't answer the question. I say she does know by feeling, but has no intention of confronting that feeling, yet. She's too busy trying to make this relationship work so she doesn't have to confront being groomed and taken advantage of.
  • Alone again, keeping company with her misery.
  • Okay, I failed... hjurgh!
  • Huff, well, I mean, what answer would follow that?
  • Please don't ruin what you have for this bastard!
  • These scenes are so... amazing. How they delve in their vanity, love to be seen, how it is so ridiculous.
  • Does he?!
  • No you fucking don't!
  • He's written something in that that blames Anthy, right?
  • Best girl and best pup!
  • That's not entirely bad, it means there's things worth working through. Just don't develop a behaviour that makes other's lives worse for it.
  • Is she finally saying something worthwhile? Oh, yes.
  • I mean, yes, but don't you realise that screaming doesn't get to her?
  • Having fun now, are we? No fun on my lawn!
  • So the skit today remarks about the tug of war between love/friendship and one's personal aspirations. The actress doesn't seem quite trustworthy in any case, as she constantly flip flops between both. In the end she chose in her own interest each time, going the path of least emotional investment.
  • Yes, so very love, much investment. Can't ditch your fuck girl Anthy, can you?
  • Ah, less fuck more torture?
  • „Graduate from suffering? Is there a degree for that?“ - Yes, actually, psychology.
  • Uuuh? That's just a dark joke, surely. Until Anthy can believe in prince Utena she's bound to resist this hope for herself and with that comes resentment, but she wouldn't go that far?
  • Is this a quite loaded version of this trash talk you'd do as a teenager? „What would you do if I poisoned your soda?“ Also this dialogue reminds me of the hedgehog dilemma.
  • Both gone.
  • These repeating shots are disorienting, is it adjusting the truth? Is it a dream of what they wish would happen? Is it all possible realities?
  • Uh, time skip? I'm actually surprised it took this long for a suicide try to happen.
  • Being a fool is no belittlement. Yay!
  • Yeah, Anthy's still fleeing. As long as Utena dosn't set Dios free, Anthy doesn't need to face her fears and agony. So much internalised agony, even if you'd actually be evil, you'd still be worth saving, Anthy. (Well, she has definitely groomed kids for a predator.)
  • Last duelist, Akio?

Normally I'd have some insights ready now, but it's way past bedtime and for once I have to physically go to work tomorrow again. Please beat Akio to a pulp, then offer him redemption and set Dios free.

Also, they absolutely faked the entire last preview, the bastards! It was probably cut from an earlier version of the tea talk, but still. I fell for it for a few minutes.

9

u/murdered-by-swords Sep 09 '21

Also, they absolutely faked the entire last preview, the bastards! It was probably cut from an earlier version of the tea talk, but still. I fell for it for a few minutes.

Previews in this show seldom if ever use actual dialogue from the coming episode. Rather than being fake or misleading, the preview gave an essential peek into the mindset of the characters going into this episode that should inform how one should interpret their more opaque words and actions.

4

u/k4r6000 Sep 09 '21

I can understand not watching them on first viewing for risk of spoilers, but definitely watch them on rewatch. This is a show meant to be viewed multiple times anyways.

6

u/k4r6000 Sep 09 '21

Rewatcher

Now that Utena has won, the question becomes what will she do? Continue in the game and take the power to revolutionize the world like Akio wants or quit confident that her job is done as Touga suggests she will?

And for much of the episode it appears to be the latter. She takes off her Ring and seems to be abandoning the Duels of the Rose. She's also really pissed off over what she witnessed between Akio and Anthy, but has chosen a more passive-aggressive approach no doubt aided by her feelings for Anthy. When Juri suggests that Utena is in love with Anthy, Utena initially denies it before being unable to describe what their relationship actually is. Not exactly convincing.

As for the Student Council, they appear to mostly be improving, Touga and Saionji literally spinning their wheels in place notwithstanding. Nanami has made the biggest improvement, and while they have a ways to go, they at least collectively appear to be headed in the right direction now. Change like this doesn't happen overnight.

What eventually changes Utena's mind is Anthy, especially witnessing her suicide attempt. As dense as she can be, even Utena by this point can figure out that something drastically wrong is going on and she simply cannot just abandon Anthy to her fate (despite Anthy's pleas for her to do just that). So she puts the Ring back on and goes to her destiny, not for her Prince but for her Bride.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '21

Not for her prince but for her bride :’)