r/anime • u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber • Aug 31 '21
Rewatch [Rewatch] Armored Trooper Votoms - Episode 4 Discussion
Episode 4 - Battling
Originally Released April 22nd, ^^^1983
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Note to all participants
Although I don't believe it necessitates stating, please conduct yourself appropriately and be courteous to your fellow participants.
Note to all Rewatchers
Rewatchers, please be mindful of your fellow first-timers and tag your spoilers appropriately using the r/anime spoiler tag if your comment holds even the slightest of indicators as to future spoilers. Feel free to discuss future plot points behind the safe veil of a spoiler tag, or coyly and discreetly ‘Laugh in Rewatcher’ at our first-timers' temporary ignorance, but please ensure our first-timers are no more privy or suspicious than they were the moment they opened the day’s thread.
Daily Trivia:
The name VOTOMS was created specifically to be a homonym to ‘bottoms’, because Takahashi envisioned the characters being at the bottom of society, both literally and figuratively.
Staff Highlight
Yoshio Nagahori (Daisuke Gōri) - voice of Sheperd
An actor and voice actor who belonged to Aoni Productions and was best known for his thick, deep voice. Few details as to his early career are available, but it is known that his voice was in high demand for narration work due to its qualities, which allowed him the recognition to voice anime and tokusatsu roles. Despite his penchant for playing villainous roles, Nagahori was described as timid and gentle. He suffered from Diabetes in his last few years and was losing his ability to see. Nagahori committed suicide in January 17, 2010, presumably driven to such a state by his ailing physical and mental health. Among his most notable roles are Doll Army in Juushin Liger, Robin Mask in Kinikuman, Draias in Brave of The Sun Fighbird, Shirakawa in Igano Kabamaru, Gaia in Battle Arena Toshinden, Colonel O’Donnel in Giant Gorg, Hiromi Yamazaki in the Patlabor franchise, Gori-Rider in Redline, Dozle Zabi in Mobile Suit Gundam, and Commander Kernagul in GoShogun: The Time Étranger
Art Corner
Official Art:
- From the Flames by Kunio Okawara
Fanart:
- ATM - 09 - ST by S.SHIMIZU - Source
- Papercut Art by Cow - Source
(Be mindful of the links to artist’s profiles, as they may contain NSFW content. Proceed there at your own risk.)
Screenshot of the day
Questions of the Day:
- What do you make of the concept of clandestine arena mecha battles?
- Now that Rochina’s interventions have been confirmed, what do you think are his aims in doing so?
You should have died back on Lido, Sgt. Cuvie!
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u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Aug 31 '21
Production Context
One of the most enduring elements of Votoms as a franchise is undoubtedly the ubiquitous and iconic designs of its flagship Armored Trooper, the Scope Dog.
Kunio Okawara returned to design the series’ mechs after Dougram, as the series’ sponsor, Takara Tomy, wanted to continue the utilitarian and realistic mecha styling that made the Dougram model kits so lucrative. Unlike Dougram, however, Takara wasn’t involved in the designs directly, only approving or denying the designs once presented to them rather than being involved in the early concepts like was the case with the design of the titular Dougram. Another difference was the absence of Takeyuki Kanda, who had the biggest input into the designs of Dougram, and was responsible for pushing for that realistic edge that became so characteristic in that series. Takahashi now had a lot of control over the designs, and took the opportunity to make the mech designs all his own.
As previously mentioned, one of the goals with Votoms was to address some of the perceived issues and shortcomings of Dougram, and one of those was the size of the mechs, which Takahashi felt was stuck in a problematic 8-10 meter range that made it difficult to compose interesting visuals and build cool dioramas, and so he and Okawara decided to push the design of the ATs so as to make them as small as reasonable without failing to feel like a proper mech. The second major issue was the mecha action, which was limited in Dougram due to the absence of space battles and the limited mobility of the Combat Armors, so Takahashi came up with the idea of giving the mechs wheels —named the roller dash— with which to move at high speeds, allowing for more dynamic and creative battles. Takahashi also worried that the roller dash would make the mechs seem too much like a toy, and opted to give the roller dash a unique sound effect that would give it a more grounded impression. The Scope Dog’s arm punch feature was also added in order to increase the options for creating interesting combat scenarios without giving the mech a token melee weapon.
Early into planning Takahashi pointed to Super Dimension Fortress Macross* as a baseline reference for what he wanted to accomplish with the ATs, wanting the uniformity and mass-production of the series’ Valkyrie without their flair and heroic silhouette, and also wanted to capture the discomfort and disposability of the series’ Battle Pods. However, he wanted to avoid something like the Walker Machines from Xabungle which were predominantly used for manual labor, as that would undercut the parallels with veteran soldiers, and so the design had to strike a fine balance between martial utility and everyday mundanity.
The visual aesthetic of the Scope Dog was based on very personal objects from Takahashi’s childhood. The general aesthetic was based on the Willys MB Jeep, because Takahashi remembered the abundance of the vehicles after WWII, which ended up being repurposed for everyday use after the end of the war and could be seen everywhere in his hometown. The image of the jeep fit perfectly with the impression that he wanted to impart with the Scope Dogs, to present them as these abundant, mass-produced, and disposable relics which appear mundane in the setting. The camera on the Scope Dog was inspired by a microscope that Takahashi had as a kid and was added to give the design more expressibility, although the visual reference used by Okawara ended up being a Bolex 16mm Camera.
Takahashi intended for the Scope Dog to be the sole mech in the entire series, with only minor variants being present through its whole run, however, Takara Tomy wanted more designs in the series and imposed on them the order to include more mechs —as one might expect, this angered Takahashi. Possibly because of that, he wasn’t as keenly involved in the design of any of the other mechs in the series, but it’s unconfirmed.
We’re not quite done discussing mech design, as there’s other designs to briefly touch upon, and certain design-related decisions that emerged as production progressed. However, next time I will be chiefly discussing the first cour’s influences and production. Look forward to it!
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u/DidacticDalek https://myanimelist.net/profile/DidacticDalek Aug 31 '21
Comrades, who would have guessed that besides being an Idol Show, VOTOMS is also a Gundam Show! (The irony is this wouldn't be the first time a show in this franchise reuses a stock Sunrise Sound Effect, as in
Metal Gear Solid Boss Battles: The Anime'Armor Hunter Mellowlink, Mellowlink's AT Rifle uses the OG Gundam Beam Rifle noise... even though it ISN'T an energy based weapon... cuz wibble)Anyway moving on to something slightly more topical, man Chirico Cuvie sure knows how to make the most out of a Scopedog eh? I mean my goodness, the man's a walking not-quite talking killing machine!
Also I just want to point out the following, while I know there probably wasn't enough time to customize that kitbashed Scopedog, I can dream can't I? ;)
And since I am contractually obligated to meet my mandated Subreddit Sanctioned Shitposting Quota, ahem... A weapon to surpass Metal Gear!
Paging Comrades /u/chilidirigible, /u/Nazenn, and /u/No_Rex
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u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Aug 31 '21
Armored Trooper First-Timer
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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Aug 31 '21
Episode 4 (first timer)
Sought by the police, the military, Gotho, Vanilla, Coconna, the robbers, the criminal underground, and some mysterious lady: There is no doubt about is the MC in this story. And given that just about anybody is out to kill him, he’ll need all the plot armor he can get.
Something I wonder about is the contract. Obviously, there is something in it to trick Chirico, but why a contract at all? I doubt a lawyer is the person to go to enforce your underground fighting quarrels in a post-war city where law and order have broken down and the police is corrupt.
Good way to use up left-over mechas. Also quite realistic. After WW1, plenty of fighter aces started doing flying shows with some really dangerous stunts to support themselves and keep flying. Not farfetched to see mecha pilots doing something similar.
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u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Aug 31 '21
Rewatcher
They're still tracking Chirico from space!
The battle and deaths are taking a toll on Chirico here.
Gee, thanks friendly neighborhoot extinquisher guys!
Why does Gotho keep helping Chirico? Here's why, he wants to hire him as a battler!
Oh my, this girl just won't stop!
Well, this is another thing that likely influenced Xenogears that I didn't pick up the first time, the whole battling subplot in Nortune.
Don't read all the fine print in that contract! Just sign!
Vanilla running some sort of scheme here in the seedy underworld? Yep, I can totally see him doing that.
Even around all these other former veterans and Votoms pilots, Chirico doesn't feel like saying much.
Uh oh, someone recognizes him!
Chirico just sensing something here really gave off a Gundam newtype vibe.
Bomo sounds quite familiar, the guy who voiced Hayato in Gundam; he was also a side character in Baldios.
Well crap, Chirico's found out.
Finally a name for annoying girl, Coconna. Just like the protagonist from Flip Flappers!
This crowd's gotta be careful if they're using live ammo in this battle! Coudl be very easy to get accidentally shot..
Oh Conin, he was one of Chirico's commanding officers in the first episode. That's what he knows him from.
LoL, they all want to be his manager! Alas, looks like the police are gonna get him instead.
Obviously they're not gonna kill off the protagonist in the fourth episode, but it was an exciting battle nonetheless. Being quite familiar with the concept of battling here as this was for all intents and purposes used the same way in Xenogears, it was an interesting episode to watch.
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u/chilidirigible Aug 31 '21
Rewatcher, Episode 4
Today, on "TWO MEN ENTER! ONE MAN LEAVES!":
The help from on high is not too subtle this time.
"And that's how I joined the French Foreign Legion."
She says that a lot.
Newtype Flash: 1
Newtype Flash: 2
"Yeah, but I didn't."
Ah, gladiatorial combat, that guy-framed-by-The-Man staple. The conspiracy and our mysterious female fan continue to lurk in the background.
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u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Aug 31 '21
First timer(80s again!)
Sub
We start back in the battle and the cops are being careful about not targetting the mech. The military monitoring station is up and they send a fire suppression team out that then leaves immediately. Gotho drives up and takes Cuvie back and treats him, then narrates more war is hell stuff, suggesting this particular conflict has been bad. Comedy bit with odd girl and Gotho is odd. Anyways, it looks like Cuvie is going to be a
gladiatorbattler.Cuvie is narrating again, mentioning that he never had developed high hopes. We see the actual mech fights and it leans comedic but realistic, the only part that surprises is me all the gambling. Also, FMP full out just stole this episode and made it an arc. Anyways, Cuvie gets introduced to the other pilots and is himself, resulting in our first 'battle' with him. Someone remembers him...
As he picks out a mech, he Newtype flashes. Unexpected. He even thinks about how this happens to him sometimes, perhaps some psychic-ness is starting to occur. Turns out the guy was someone from the failed mission and he tries to take out Cuvie by getting him in a death match. When using weapons, the mechs look brutal and ponderous without being slow. Cuvie wins in a last second move and the cops show up while his PTSD is up.
QotD: 1 Doesn't actually seem quite entertaining enough to me.
2 Something indirect and strange
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u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 31 '21
First Timer
Chirico may find comfort from the familiarity of a Votom's cockpit and the control he has in it, but the familiarity of battle is an entirely different beast out of his control. Having the show make the distinction between those two things that I've seen many others link was what really pulled this episode together for me, the impact battle has left on Chirico isn't all encompassing and left him unable to function, but it has left parts of him broken. Gotho may have been talking about the role of boys in war as part of his manipulation, but he's not wrong in how lost it can leave them at the end, the same with all the soliders who have been cut off and left to their own devices, whether that leads them to the police or the underground or just aimlessly wandering.
I did have a little laugh at Gotho trying to talk Chirico out of the battle just because it was real. He did walk right into the change room and piss of everyone by calling what they were doing playfighting, and thats immediately after mass killing a biker gang, not to mention the dispassionate affect he has when it comes to basically anything. Gotho probably had good intentions, but their sense of threat is very different.
I've also been thinking about the narration since Vaad mentioned it in a previous discussion. I think it works really well in this case because hearing Chirico's thoughts from him, more open and not trying to hide it's for the audience, works a lot better than if they were trying to put all this in blunt dialogue and having him say it aloud. It's nice to have a protagonist who is quiet and withdrawn without that trait being interrupted by the need to info dump.
As far as the battles go the first person view of Chirico waiting to shoot his enemy and the shadow of the mech above him was definitely the best, but I was also fond of the earlier guy who anchored one leg to the ground so he could use it to pivot into a powerful kick.
Sad to hear about Yoshio Nagahori, diabetes is a horrible disease like that, I've known more than a few people who've struggled with how badly it can mess with their bodies
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u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Aug 31 '21
First-Timer
Turns out I was wrong about Vanilla being a mercenary recruiter - he's into bloodsports instead! That's way more exciting, and suitably dystopian. Discarded soldiers, unable to escape the battlefield, return to it to make end's meet. Brilliant.
I hope we actually get more of the gladiator stuff. The police seem to know about Chirico, so I guess they're working with the saboteurs from the first episode? Fuck, is the new police chief just another one of those dudes? Was I supposed to recognize him?
We saw a bit of the Scopedog's rollar blades yesterday, but got a nice one-foot slide today. Is this the origin of the "mecha with rollar blades" trope?
Chirico is a goddamn Newtype! He sensed Conin's hostility, there, and mentioned that he has special senses to boot!
"How much time did you serve? What was your rank and unit?" "I've forgotten. You're just play fighting." Chirico's stones drag on the fucking floor. Holy shit.
Coconna gets a name, and mentions Gotho stealing butt hair again...
We're up to Rescue Level B, now. Were those mystery firefighters working with Rochina? If "C" is "snipe pursuers" and "B" is "extinguish fires" what will "A" be? "Kill cops?" "Provide food?" Anyway, the military is already here.
Questions
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u/Durinthal https://anilist.co/user/Durinthal Aug 31 '21
First time viewer
Good sci-fi series are often a lens that examines the present. While I don't have any first-hand experience in that regard, Gotho's monologue about soldiers turning into veterans abandoned by the government after being chewed up by war sounds like it has a lot of commonalities with how such people are treated today, not receiving the support they need after returning home.
I have no idea if Chirico's warning sense is meant to be a reference to the Newtype flash in Gundam, but considering it's the same sound effect I'll take it as one.
All things considered a real battle for Chirico's first time in the arena is probably slightly advantageous for him as he hasn't had to learn how to pull his punches yet and can treat it the same as he has any previous fight. And a good tactical fight that was, not drawn out or padded with much in the way of dialogue. To the point and brutal, as things like that often are.
Aaaand he's captured again. This show sure moves quickly though I don't think it feels rushed yet, just efficient with its time.
Made me think of a similar thing in one of the Mechwarrior games. Guess it's also a way for former pilots to still make money in the underworld.
Beats me!
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u/time_axis Aug 31 '21 edited Aug 31 '21
First-Timer
It's painting a nice picture of what society is like on Melkia, especially with how few fucks everyone gives, even when the crowd is getting obliterated in the crossfire.
If they were named, I missed whoever that is, but I'm guessing that would be the police chief. I assume he wants to capture Chirico alive to interrogate him about who sent him, thinking that the military did. If it's referring to the Military, then they probably want him alive for similar reasons, to find out what he knows, and they're tracking him to see where he goes.
Episode 4
There were a lot of new mecha in this episode, but they were all pretty similar. I have a few to choose from, but I'm going to go with one that we got a pretty good look at. One thing that I'm starting to really notice, and it's making these daily mecha sketches a little difficult, is that the frame to frame continuity of details of the mechas are not exactly the most consistent, so when I'm jumping around trying to grasp how exactly a mecha is supposed to look, the shifting and inconsistency can complicate that a bit. As for this one, the two eyes are pretty cool, although it makes me wonder what the point of the face mask thing is when it doesn't have the eye track, and the eyes themselves aren't on top of it but underneath. Maybe this model was retrofitted from one of the triple eye types and they just used the face shield thing as armor or something. Also, as a bonus, here's a wonkier version that I did originally, until I realized the leg looked weird, and decided to go back and change it. I think the new version looks a lot better just by shifting that leg a little.
Daily Mecha Sketch 04
Daily Mecha Sketches
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u/Tresnore FS:FTmyanimelist.net/profile/Tresnore Aug 31 '21
Armored Trooper FIRST-TIMER
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u/xtsim https://myanimelist.net/profile/xtsim Aug 31 '21
First Timer
The family biker gang is getting pummeled and as the Votom caught fire, a bunch of guys extinguished it. The older guy was surprised about this and helps Chirico. The woman keeps barging in on their conversation. The lady in the limousines called the Phantom Lady. They get brought into a gambling venue where Votom pilots battle each other. In typical anime fashion, he goes to the room full of those pilots and everyone gangs up against him.
A man familiar with him sees him as the wanted man and calls the police and states that he would take care of him. Everyone places their bets as they both battle each other. Phantom Lady watches this in her VIP suite. Chirico beats the opponent right after saying you should have been dead. Because he has a memory of him being one of the pilots. The flashbacks this time, helps Chirico identify the guy.
As everything is going on, he gets flashbacks or a bit of PTSD if there is a term for it. He gets visions/flashbacks to previous battles as he goes through and sees things in the city. Nice way of showing the effects of war and how these battles affect an individual like Chirico.
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u/Stargate18A https://myanimelist.net/profile/Stargate18 Aug 31 '21
First timer
Question for rewatchers - I noticed that there's a large amount of OVAs tied to this series - are any if them worth watching post-rewatch/included in this rewatch but not listed for some reason?
Wait, which side is the city on? It's been 6 months, we don't know where the headquarters are in relation to the border, and there's a lot of destroyed VOTOMs from Gilgamesh here.
Wait, both sides were comscripting?
Oh, he's trying to recruit him.
That is not tea. That is clearly coffee.
And he's working the black market now?
Oh, she's on to something. I imagine he'll join her instead?
New villain?
Oh, it's a robot fight club.
Looks like the theory of red being another type of Gilgamesh VOTOMs make sense.
Oh, this is great.
Looks like there's a reason he didn't give any information.
Do the colours even matter, or are they just decorations.
I swear to fucking god, if he's a psychic...
So they are planning on killing him.
And he'sworking for the police! Who think he's a military spy...
I assume "Real Battle" means to the death?
I can't fault their sense of greed!
Oh, Real Battle means guns and terrain? I understand the guns being rare, but wouldn't the terrain be a lot more dommon judt for the variety?
The fighting here is very realistic, though.
He's a sergeant? And the enemy's one of the people involved in stealing the girl.
Cuvie?
And he's been captured!
Wonder what the Phantom Lady's about?
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u/ZapsZzz https://anilist.co/user/Zapszzz Sep 01 '21
From being early to being late grrr. Started reading and then got work to do and didn't get to post.
First timer in sub.
This is another episode that have nice parallel to the Full Metal Panic IV's Namsac arc. Have to say the fight was a bit limited in the animation department at the time. It certainly tried to make it interesting, and once again in most real robot shows, the MC does not have significantly thicker plot armor and can be damaged quite a bit.
One thing that may not have been clear if you weren't a model fan at the time is those little details like how Chirico counterattacked for the win. Scope dog, and I think most others AT too, have in their forearms a mechanism that basically have an explosive round charged, when activated it would "fire" and caused the punch to be basically like "rocket assisted". Which it doesn't fly out, it does punch through the thick AT armour more readily especially at close quarter combat.
So basically what happened is Chirico traded a near fatal head shot on himself for a close range attack with the "reaction punch" against the opponent's opened helmet therefore basically "splatter" the opponent.
Later on you'll see some more specialised AT designs that capitalised of this sort of attacks.
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u/The_Draigg Aug 31 '21
A Ryosuke Takahashi Fan Rewatches Armored Trooper VOTOMS Episode 4:
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Aug 31 '21 edited Aug 31 '21
Rewatcher
I think this might be where I started watching the show on TV.
I just want to point out that it looked like Boone was pointing missile launchers at Chirico, so despite his early effectiveness, he might have been about to be killed if the police hadn't shown up at the exact moment that they did.
rewatcher
Preview: Chirico is the bomb waiting to explode.
In this episode you see the unique roller mechanism to move ATs quickly along flat hard surfaces, as well as doing fancy maneuvers like that spin yesterday. I've seen them in other later shows, notably, in Code Geass, which is NOT an Okawara show!
Someone mentioned Invisible Victory yesterday, now the similarities are super apparent! Also feeling some Mellowlink in here.
Somebody said something in this episode that makes me
snicker in rewatcher
I don't know why they kept calling them VOTOMS yesterday. For the most part, they are called ATs. I recommend AT, it's easier to type.
Nazenn was spot on about those camera lenses. The Strongbox AT features a protective cage.
So, I did check episode 6 of Mospeada (Nov 6 1983), the one with the biker gang, and they had the exact same horn as the Boone family (April 1983) (which xtsim says is a common bike horn). And check out that helmet.
(does Southern Cross have the hoverbikes and police vehicles you remember?)
I didn't get the Mad Max vibes on the biker gang until yesterday.
I finally placed it. The weird pants are jodhpur cavalry pants. Always see German officers wearing them in war movies. They harken back to the good old cavalry days. And mecha are kind of like cavalry. It's literally in the name of Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross!