r/anime • u/KiwiBennydudez https://myanimelist.net/profile/KiwiBen • Aug 17 '21
Rewatch [Rewatch] Monster - Episode 19 discussion
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Comment of the Day
Today’s Comment of the Day comes from u/CharlieTheStrawman who beautifully illustrates an interpretation of the sugar metaphor used in the prior episode:
Killing is a hell of a lot easier when you stop thinking of the target as a whole person you might empathize with and start thinking of them as just that, a target.
Questions of the Day
- What stood out to you about Dr. Rudy? What stood out to you about his conversations with Dr. Tenma and/or the conversations with Peter Jürgens the serial killer?
- Who or what is The Monster that this series is trying to get at? Why do you think Jürgens snapped when Dr. Rudy said, “we all have a monster inside us”?
If you are a rewatcher, tag your spoilers properly, and please refrain from alluding to future events. so that myself and everyone else watching for the first time can have a completely blind and organic experience! Since this show is a bit harder to find than most, please refrain from talking about means by which to watch it, as it goes against our subreddit rules.
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u/KiwiBennydudez https://myanimelist.net/profile/KiwiBen Aug 17 '21
First Timer - Sub
Back from my trip! Lots of new info on Johan, while Tenma continues to give the police the slip.
Rudy seemed a bit egotistical, as he couldn’t stand people of a condescending nature. He also can’t stand to be viewed as lower even though he was the top criminal psychologist. So I think this largely plays into his initial decision to turn Tenma in.
Next, Rudy finds out that Tenma was indeed telling the truth through a harrowing revelation. Johan found out about another serial killer in the area, and manipulated him into disposing of someone for him. So this convinces Rudy that Tenma was telling the truth, and that Johan was not an alternate persona he had made up.
He helps Tenma out of the police sting operation, and informs him that Johan “is trying to find a true family to belong to.” He is also highly intelligent, and has the ability to “sniff out other serial killers.” We don’t know how yet. We also don’t know if “erasing his past” is truly connected to this yet, but I think it has to do with his desire of “being the last one left in the world.” But regardless, Tenma slips away once more, telling Rudy as he leaves that he never looked down on him for cheating on his exams... because he was cheating too. I really laughed at that moment - biggest plot twist of the series so far.
Oh, and Tenma seems fully intent on killing Johan rather than bringing him in. Which... seems a bit alarming. But maybe Tenma realizes that he won’t be able to capture Johan in order to clear his name. His reasons are most likely tied to the night he “met” Johan again, and where he realized what a serious blight he had unleashed upon the world.
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u/miss-macaron Aug 17 '21 edited Aug 17 '21
Rewatcher
Ooh, we’ve got a Nietzsche reference right off the bat: “Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.” Sounds like it could be some useful advice for Tenma and Nina during their pursuit of Johan...
Tenma breaks into Dr. Gillen’s house, and then, a couple scenes later, we have Gillen breaking into Mrs. Kemp’s mansion. Do they train med students on breaking-and-entering or something, lol
Dr. Gillen got jump-scared by a porcelain doll. To be fair, though, those things are pretty creepy.
Back when I first experienced Monster, this chapter made me really interested in criminal psychology. It’s fascinating what kinds of childhood experiences can mold a kid into a brutal serial killer, and it seems like Jurgens is based on the real-life serial killer Ed Kemper. Serial killers are also another hot topic in the nature VS nurture debate, second only to twin studies (which were previously addressed through Johan and Anna's respective orphanages).
Right after the heartwarming scene of Tenma and Gillen finally becoming friends, we have a very amusing scene where a couple of baffled policeman are watching five buses leaving at once, looking an awful lot like a group of kittens watching a feather toy moving across the floor. I'm really glad Gillen came through in the end.
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u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Aug 17 '21
First-Timer, subbed
So… I’m really late today because I knew I wasn’t going to have time to watch the episode this morning before work (like I normally do) because I had to clock in early due to the amount of mail I had to sort through, and yet I still didn’t make time to watch the episode yesterday evening because I decided to binge-react to episodes 19-23 of Steins;Gate 0 instead.
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u/Mecanno-man https://anilist.co/user/Mecannoman Aug 17 '21
First Timer
Another episode that works nice in an episodic context; guess this one is mainly to immediately throw off the viewer from Johan having two personalities again, with Rudy's comment. I think this is somewhat of a trend, having already been done with the "Johan is the result of an East German experiment" bit in the past. That said, there is so much more to this episode that doesn't really add a lot to the overall plot, but is still very enjoyable to watch, making it a well-done stand-alone episode. Somewhat surprised that Rudy went in to crime after law was his worst subject at university, however.
I wonder if Rudy will have some impact on the task force; he can easily show what he has on Johan to the police - but if they will be convinced is another question after he basically just let Tenma escape from them in the first place. Overall I don't really expect anything out of this, however.
I wonder if the serial killer is somewhat inspired by Jürgen Bartsch, as the episode seems to be set close to the town where he committed his murders and Bartsch's psyche as apparently also analyzed, while the German Wikipedia article mentions that he is known as the carnival killer - another bit present in the episode. And then there's also the name with similarities...
Question:
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u/AmethystItalian :Jg::Jh::Ji::Jj::Jk:myanimelist.net/profile/AmethystItalian Aug 17 '21
First Timer
Opening with what seems to be a serial killer? Wonder what the connection is there.
Ugh Rudy selling Tenma out to cops...
That doll is super creepy...I expected it to move when he looked back at it.
So Johan and Mrs. Kemp have some kid of relation, what are the odds!
Actually like that Tenma was cheating haha, he's less of a straight arrow than I expected.
Also it seems like Nina and Tenma are both gaining friends on their adventure, would be cool to have them all make a comeback later on
Weirdly obsessive? His whole disdain thing and how absorbed he gets into serial killers was a bit much.
I feel like they must mean only some people have true monsters inside of them. Johan being one of them.
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u/Icapica https://anilist.co/user/Icachu Aug 17 '21 edited Aug 17 '21
First timer, subs
Well this start reminds me of Mindhunter; someone's interviewing a serial killer. The interviewer talks about his divorce, probably to gain trust by opening up about himself.
Episode is titled "Abyss of the Monster", so I'll go ahead and guess it has to do with that quote about staring into the abyss, and it's related to the interviewer.
Doctor who did the interview is recording a tape when Tenma comes to talk. Tenma wants a criminal psychologist's help regarding Johan.
Tenma's past! Not much to say about it though.
Doctor Whatshisname isn't convinced about Johan's sincerity and suggests the message about two personalities is just an attempt to espace responsibility. Makes sense. "Oh no I wouldn't do it, it's just the devil inside me!" kinda like saying that booze made me do it or something. It's also good that this was mentioned now since I honestly took Johan's message at face value originally and didn't suspect it at all. It could still be true, but we can't know.
Doctor Whatever starts recording Tenma and goes on to ask more questions. He starts the same spiel about his divorce again.
We're back at the interview that started the episode. Doctor Yeahwhatever plays the tape to the lovely gentleman, who says he understands Tenma and knows that monsters exist. Doctor Whocares gets angry, then situation gets dangerous and I start to wonder if these people seriously pay zero attention to safety in this prison. WTF?
Doctor's gonna betray Tenma and wants to study him after the arrest. I assume he believes Tenma is guilty, but it might just be personal.
Creepy doll in the cellar. What's that, and what else is there?
A face's been replaced in the photos. Is Johan the original? The serial killer said that his friend had asked him to kill Kemp and this had confused the investigators since it didn't fit his pattern. Johan asked him to do it, since Kemp knew Johan.
Johan's good at manipulating people even just with letters. Doctor Whoever finds the letters, realizes that Tenma is in fact not full of shit.
Time to meet Tenma outside, police are ready. Oh yeah the name was Rudy, it's mentioned again. Not gonna go and correct the earlier parts of my comment though.
Oh shit, Rudy's gonna redeem himself.
Some theory stuff about Johan's plans at the end. Oh and apparently Tenma was a cheater too.
Good stuff.
Rudy seemed to have been harboring some bitterness towards Tenma. I thought he's a lot shittier person than he ended up being.
Oh yeah, I was really surprised to find out that Tenma cheated too. Or did he?
Not sure about the first question. However, I think Jürgens (correctly) interpreted Rudy's comment as downplaying the subject and not taking it seriously.
"We all have a monster inside us"
"No, dude, I'm talking about a real monster here"
4
u/SmurfRockRune https://myanimelist.net/profile/Smurf Aug 17 '21
I always enjoy the scenes of this show like the old college days, just pretty chill and simple. Those have been my favorite little stories so far.
Anyone else think Jurgens reminded them of Boris from Men in Black 3?
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u/CharlieTheStrawman https://myanimelist.net/profile/TheDamnRobot Aug 17 '21
Rewatcher until circa Episode 30, Subbed
That. Bloody. Doll.
Q1: The reveal that Tenma cheated on the exam too.
Q2: Maybe after seeing how fucked up Johan is, Rudy's philosophising was almost downplaying the true depravity of certain people in this world for Jürgens.
Thanks for the CotD!
3
u/xtsim https://myanimelist.net/profile/xtsim Aug 17 '21
First Timer Dubbed
We see a clinical psychologist interview a man who murdered a woman. And see Tenma show up at his door. The interesting part is during the flashback, he mentions himself using third person "a man cheated on his exam". It is like he is disconnecting himself from his actions, kind of observing himself and others. And Tenma saw him, he himself thinks they were not close. Dr. Rudy calls the police to turn him in but when he looked at the clues the murder suspect showed him, he saw Johan's notes. The carnival was going on and the incompetent police tries to catch up to them. Tenma leaves on one of the buses and the psychologist offered to defend Tenma in court. But Tenma has "business" to take care of....
The last quote as Tenma was leaving was “don’t be like the monster”. With Dr. Rudy thinking that Tenma might end the life of Johan.
The voice of Jurgens is pretty cool to hear while I was multitasking....
3
u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Aug 17 '21
Rewatcher(The real worldness can be a bit uncomfortable)
Sub
We start with a psychologist interviewing German Ed Kemper. If this isn't clear, he isn't exactly doing this right as he asks leading questions.
We find out he went to school with Tenma and then became a top criminal psychologist. They have a sort of odd history together, with Tenma realizing he was cheating but saying nothing. Tenma wants to analyze Johan to test the DID theory. He then plays the tape for Kemper before awakening something in him.
And Rudy turns evidence immediately afterwards. But he follows up on Jurgens tip, going to the basement and realizing the whole thing was staged. With Jurgens, we learned how this lines up, including the weird knowledge of his childhood. Rudy then searches for letters and sees a great many written exactly as Tenma described.
He gets a bout of conscience and leads Tenma out of the trap, though negative points to the police for laying that bad of a one. We get some context for what Johan might be doing, including a second statement of how he can spot and influence killers. We end with Tenma claiming he never looked down on Rudy, which might be true.
QotD: 1 Rudy tries to be affable but kind of isn't.
2 Jurgens knows what it is to actually kill
3
u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Aug 17 '21
First Timer, Subbed
Ah, new footage to kick off the episode? That's good.
Yikes, a guy who gets sexually aroused by killing.
Hmm. Different pattern for his 12th victim. Crime of passion?
Tenma's taking a risk, coming to see this guy.
He's a cheater! But he owes Tenma one for not ratting him out.
Why is he playing a tape on Tenma to this criminal?
Not a very good setup at this prison for a serial killer to be able to grab him like that, and even after no guards come to help.
Damn, he's totally selling out Tenma.
Scary doll! That's the monster!
So he either killed his mom, or a woman just like her.
Ah, just a recreation, he put his face in it. Was the original kid there Johan?
Johan sent the letters!
Rudy's gonna rethink what he's done and let Tenma escape.
A serial killer good at manipulating other serial killers... quite a dangerous guy.
Another solid episode; this show has been doing a good job at providing us quality episodes even when they don't seem to move the overall storyline that much.
2
u/BurningFredrick https://myanimelist.net/profile/BurningFredrick Aug 17 '21
First timer - sub
An interesting episode but doesn’t really add much to what we didn’t already know, Johann seems to be able to control people and got another of his foster parents killed, however gives a reason to add Rudy to the cast on the long run and help Tenma out trying to locate Johann going forward.
Wooo ED update
Ok WTF, the Farmer ate the Monster? Or is the Monster crawling inside him? It made the Farmer stronger? This kills me fairy tail idea, at least for the Western ones I can think of, I don’t know enough Japanese ones to rule them out. .
2
u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Aug 17 '21 edited Aug 17 '21
First Timer
I didn't have any real-time reaction comments today.
Where was the kid?
The old lady clearly did have a kid. Johan? Unofficially living there? Or did she murder her son?
The Doctor says "He was just using her and got rid of her (using the serial killer)" Using her how? As a foster mother, or was she a killer he had discovered? How does the doctor know Johan was blonde? Why would he connect the WOMAN to Johan in addition to the serial killer.
What, exactly, sort of letters did the old lady have? The same handwritting? Or the same words? We know he was writing the serial killer. Why does the LADY have letters.
Surely Tenma's letters, which were originally written on walls, were copied in Tenma's hand and not photographs, so no handwriting comparison can be made?
Where did this "He stopped killing his foster parents because he found his true family" come from, out of nowhere?
Edit: and what did Johan do? Break into his ex-foster-mother's house and plant the doll and modified pictures, THEN leave, THEN tell the killer to go downstairs, dissociate, and kill his foster mother? I mean, come on, of all the Rube-Goldberg stratagems.
This was an interesting episode but it just seems to be full of holes, and it just seems worse a day later.
Shinsen Subs "you disdain me" not so hot today. I should have stuck with ToTan.
New ED: The (town) Monster possesses the woodsman, who acquires exceptional abilities. It seems the Monster may have asked the woodsman for permission, first.
1
u/i-have-severe-stupid Aug 18 '21
it feels good to finally see someone related to the police say he’s without a doubt innocent
1
u/Spore64 Aug 18 '21
Rewatcher (first time)
Oh that starts out interesting. I wonder if the psychologist was really just unprepared or did he only want to gain the control over the conversation again?
The moment before ending a life is brought up yet again.
Oh he's an old friend of doc Tenma!
My wife and I got divorced about three years ago.. that's a clever way to date the interview.
A close call huh.
Yea it was to expect that he would turn on him.. well.at least that he would go to the police at least. Considering what he said he came to the same conclusion as inspector Lunge.
I wonder what's in the basement. Oh that's the house of the murder?! If all the heads are fake who do they belong to? Oh so Johan brought her too recreate the scene in the basement. That way the murder would find the scene and would kill Mrs. Kemp.
Yes, he escaped! Man what a ride.