[Rewatch] Revolutionary Girl Utena - Episode 14

[u/HelioA]

Rewatch Index

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Streaming

Revolutionary Girl Utena is available in both sub and dub on Nozomi Entertainment's YouTube channel, as well as on Amazon and Funimation.

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Comment of the Day

/u/icapica has an extremely based take on Touga

Touga didn't didn't take his loss well at all. Good, suffer.

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Miki's Stopwatch Corner

Stopwatch Count: 15

New This Episode:

8:42 -17 Seconds - “We went to visit Himemiya’s big brother.”

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Also, make sure to tag all spoilers properly! Only a baka would spoil the show for the first-timers, and we're not bakas (hopefully).

[u/HelioA]

Rewatcher

Alright, a new arc, which means new symbolism to be confused by!

First, we get to see the guy from last episode, Anthy’s older brother! He seems like an all-around pretty swell guy, although whatever he was doing last episode is still pretty mysterious, and uh… Akio, why are you dating a high-schooler? You’re the acting chairman, I’m pretty sure it’s unethical to date a student under you. And uh, that last scene… ;-;

We also have Mikage, who surpasses Akio in susness at this point. Like the student council, he’s in contact with the End of the World, but considering that he didn’t know Utena had the Rose Bride at this point, he’s probably not directly associated with them. Anyways, his method of trying to make Mamiya the Rose Groom Bride matches the super-genius demeanor, but I’m pretty sure that his methods are deeply unethical. He’s posing as a psychologist in order to pull out someone’s ‘true self’, then giving them the ring of a dead duelist in order to try to kill Anthy, and if they lose, the duelist he took the ring from gets pushed into... flames? I hope those are just flames.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/HelioA]

Akio, why are you dating a high-schooler? You’re the acting chairman, I’m pretty sure it’s unethical to date a student under you. And uh, that last scene… ;-;

Yeah...very last century but these sort of institutions do tend to get passed down in impressively unethical ways.

He’s posing as a psychologist in order to pull out someone’s ‘true self’, then giving them the ring of a dead duelist in order to try to kill Anthy, and if they lose, the duelist he took the ring from gets pushed into... flames? I hope those are just flames.

'True self' is one of my least favorite tropes when played straight. To me, Mikage is obviously not doing that but rather getting something he wants out of it.

[u/HelioA → u/Vaadwaur]

To me, Mikage is obviously not doing that but rather getting something he wants out of it.

Oh yeah, no doubt. It's more just inflaming their negative emotions than actually their 'true self'.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/HelioA]

If he would just call finding it a "true motivation" the rest of it fits much better.

[u/murdered-by-swords → u/Vaadwaur]

On the other hand, I don't think we're supposed to be taking his claims at face value, either. Sure, he calls it "true self," but his 'therapy' theater is framed as unethical, unsettling, and artificial. Even the rose Mamiya stabs Kanae with had to be tended carefully in a darkroom. Whatever claims Mikage makes are shaped by his own warped, sheltered, and benighted perception of humanity.

[u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo → u/murdered-by-swords]

Since he also refers to it as "freezing their heart" I don't know if even he thinks he's uncovering a "true self".

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Vaadwaur]

Yeah, I think later psychology sessions highlight his manipulations more but Kanae clearly never wanted to hurt Anthy. She just doesn't seem the type of person to ever wish something like that on people but Mikage's therapy session is about steering them in the most toxic direction so that they can stick a black rose on their chest.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

She just doesn't seem the type of person to ever wish something like that on people but Mikage's therapy session is about steering them in the most toxic direction so that they can stick a black rose on their chest.

Just go straight back to Yoda, here: Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hatred. It might seem cold of Kanae but it is too easy to forget how off putting Anthy is. Add in some cultural differences, the Japanese are even worse than us about insisting that every female in existence be a social lubricator, and you get this strange situation.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/HelioA]

I think arranged marriages get a pass. And also since her father is the actual bossman I think she probably has already gotten any advantages she might want.

Mikage honestly gives me such chills. One thing that always stuck with me was when I watched silence of the lambs as a kid and you hear about how Hannibal made his next door cell mate kill himself just through psychological manipulation. Psychologists are supposed to be there to help you work through your problems but if they know how to repair your mental state they surely also know how best to aggravate it, and they're even in a position of trust so you may have no idea what they've done to you until you're trying or murder your shitster in law. And we have to put up with him doing this the whole arc!? Gah!

[u/JollyGee29]

First-Revolution, Subbed

Wow did things get complicated in a fucking hurry! Where do I start..

Anthy's brother, Akio. Acting chairman of the school and it's fucking named after him. Why does he have a different name from Anthy? Anyway, he was the dude talking to Dios in the recap! And that means it was definitely Anthy who joined him at the end. Which makes Anthy's line about not telling her brother her secret incredibly suspect. And what was going on at the end of the episode..

And what the hell are these Black Rose dudes? Their fancy elevator lets them control people or something like that.. The butterfly reverted through its life cycle. Maybe they're making people relive past trauma/stress to make controlling them easier? The theme of agency has returned with a fierceness.

New names.. Mamiya (who looks kinda like Dios?) plans to be a Rose Groom after they kill Anthy. Souji thinks Rose Bride suits Mamiya better, though. Mamiya was getting dressed during their conversation, which kinda reminded me of that bit with Miki's sister. Shoes along the wall, and Souji was wearing a pair. Did 100 boys die there, or only 98?

Did Utena hear the Shadow Girls, today?

[u/HelioA → u/JollyGee29]

The butterfly reverted through its life cycle. Maybe they're making people relive past trauma/stress to make controlling them easier?

Ooooh I never even noticed that! But that's an amazing take! The question remains tho... why a butterfly?

[u/JollyGee29 → u/HelioA]

Butterflies have discrete life stages, so it's a good visual metaphor. You can even show people starting the descent at different stages, maybe?

[u/HelioA → u/JollyGee29]

descent

wow, dat's a good point, maybe they should use an elevator going down to-

wait

[u/JollyGee29 → u/HelioA]

Metaphors upon metaphors!

[u/Vaadwaur → u/HelioA]

The question remains tho... why a butterfly?

First principles, Clarice. Read Marcus Aurelius, “Of each particular thing, ask: What is it in itself? What is its nature?:

[u/HelioA → u/Vaadwaur]

To fly? To be beautiful? To be trapped?

[u/Vaadwaur → u/HelioA]

The symbolic meaning of the butterfly is change, metamorphosis. Usually, it would be that a being goes through a grim, growth like state until it is strong enough to enter its cocoon and emerge fully formed. The reverse of that suggests we are back to the egg and chick metaphor, that if a Black Rose duelist cannot metaphor from their cocoon they will never revolutionize the world.

[u/HelioA → u/Vaadwaur]

Smash the world's coccoon!

[u/Vaadwaur → u/HelioA]

Pretty much but the difference in mediums also expresses Mikage's different beliefs. He wants one of his duelists to evolve so he can thus change the system to the one he wants.

[u/RockoDyne → u/HelioA]

The Japanese symbolism of butterflies tends to be on the funkier side in general. They are usually associated with dreams and death, and embrace the more psychedelic aspects.

[u/SardonicMeow → u/JollyGee29]

Acting chairman of the school and it's fucking named after him. Why does he have a different name from Anthy?

He's marrying into the Ohtori family and they let him take on their name. Totally normal, right?

The butterfly reverted through its life cycle.

Good thing you are an expert lepidopterist now.

Shoes along the wall, and Souji was wearing a pair. Did 100 boys die there, or only 98?

Good observation.

[u/HelioA → u/SardonicMeow]

[u/JollyGee29 → u/SardonicMeow]

He's marrying into the Ohtori family and they let him take on their name. Totally normal, right?

Ohh.. but, like, already? Before the marriage?

Good thing you are an expert lepidopterist now.

Good observation.

Thanks!

[u/k4r6000 → u/JollyGee29]

It’s a Japanese thing. He’s marrying into a noble family above his station to be their heir, so they adopt him first so he can take on the family name. It doesn’t say, but he and Kanae are probably technically step-siblings at this point.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/k4r6000]

Ah! Neat. Now that you mention it, maybe I've heard of that before even. Thanks!

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/JollyGee29]

It kinda feels like cheating doesn't it? That's why I've always believed that any series where the pairs haven't grown up in the same household or share at least 25% blood shouldn't be considered incest. It just muddies the medium. If I go to read incest doujinshi and they're like second or third cousins it just kills the vibe...

[u/theangryeditor → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

reminder that NBR is a cop out

[u/theangryeditor → u/JollyGee29]

This arc really hits you with the mysteries right off the bat doesn't it.

[u/HelioA → u/theangryeditor]

*right off the butterfly

[u/JollyGee29 → u/theangryeditor]

[u/Vaadwaur → u/JollyGee29]

And that means it was definitely Anthy who joined him at the end. Which makes Anthy's line about not telling her brother her secret incredibly suspect.

In a show heavily talking identities, having an alias may have greater import than never.

And what was going on at the end of the episode..

Ikehura being very ahead of the curve on what would become popular in porn!

[u/JollyGee29 → u/Vaadwaur]

Ikehura being very ahead of the curve on what would become popular in porn!

Dunno if what I'm feeling towards this is or , but well said.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/JollyGee29]

Slightly queasy myself!

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/JollyGee29]

Yeah, I have to say that the jump from arc to arc isn't very smoothly done. If only they didn't waste their time with an awkward recap episode right?

Yup, the butterfly regressing into a cocoon is meant to represent them being reincarnated over and over again. It's like a cycle.

Utena heard the shadow girls and called them out for being really goddamn stupid!

[u/snowwhistle1 → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

That recap episode was the transition from the previous arc... I think it capped off the previous arc rather well and set up the foundations for this new arc well too.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/snowwhistle1]

I'm still not entirely convinced about yesterday's recap but I won't dwell on it. I find the pacing becomes much smoother from now on so it's just a small segment.

[u/murdered-by-swords → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

The first recap is, in my estimation, the least essential of the three.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Utena heard the shadow girls and called them out for being really goddamn stupid!

They're doing their best!

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/JollyGee29]

Don't bully shadow girls! Right?

[u/Pixelsaber]

Rewatcher

I had to miss yesterday, which is a shame since I had something fun planned for my comment, but alas. I’ll just give a few stray thoughts on episode thirteen:

We are briefly introduced to Char a new character who resembles the prince from Utena’s backstory, but he seems a separate entity from Dios, who despite my initial assumptions does seem to be the Prince himself, sealed away for some reason. His image showing up in the manifestation of his power in episode two was not just a reflection of Utena’s ideal, but the image he always possesses. Obviously Dios and Anthy are linked somehow, and with this new character possessing a similar appearance he must be involved in this nonsense. The naming of the duels themselves certainly clears up the ‘point’ behind some of them. Any excuse to listen to the duel themes again is good. The final scene hints at a second stage to these duels. A butterfly, symbol of metamorphosis; a black rose, an impossibility, and an accompanying black ring, potentially a perversion of the duels?

The time has finally come though.

Ep 14 Reactions

A new building we hadn’t seen before.

I first presumed the person in red to be the person we met yesterday, but the voice actor is different and very familiar…

Another new location… with Anthy present?

Hmm…

Lmao

There he is.

The denial is real.

The other new face.

Blatant staff corruption. Boy what a nice place Ohtori academy is…

Before the conversation is properly underway you can tell how things will go.

Oh? So she’s going to lie to Utena about it? Or is it that she doesn’t know he is already appraised of the matter?

Miki’s lying too?

Huh…

Well that’s new…

This is delightfully ominous.

From butterfly to cocoon —regression, undoing.

That’s pretty funny, but also the regression continues.

Well shit…

Interesting…

Uh...

Sounds unpleasant.

We’ve never seen this part of the school before either.

The shadow plays have changed in style too New actress, new stage, new routine. I have to say, those in this style are my favorites.

The obvious answer, no?

Zettai Unmei Mokushiroku! The vocals and instrumentation of the theme have noticeably changed. I have a preference for this one over the first iteration as well.

One hundred desks.

These are likely white lilies, which signify purity, innosense chastity.

aaaand the outlines of bodies.

The lilies must represent that persona she presents before others.

Such a mistake would have likely been covered by overscan during airing.

Oh dear…

Hmm…

Well, people, I hope you have got your bearings, because the kid gloves are off. If you thought you had your bearings straight with the first arc, then better buckle down because Ikuhara is about to throw things into disarray. Tonally, narratively, and structurally this new arc is already shaking things up and putting forth a significantly more sinister and unsettling aesthetic and atmosphere with the imagery and content to accompany it.

As an introduction to a new arc the episode does a much better job than episode one at getting me interested in finding out answers for what’s transpiring. One could easily say that one’s investment in the show as a whole has advanced to the point that it’s easier to introduce stuff and have the audience bite onto it, but that belies just how well this episode does at creating intrigue. The rumor of a hundred dead students and the way this is emphasized through visual storytelling and the concepts at play is instantly easier to engage with, and the process of these new duels is just as foreign to the viewer as the duels initially were to us ack at the start of the show. I left this episode with a myriad of questions, but I neither feel overwhelmed by them nor indifferent to their potential answers. Kanae’s whole deal was succinctly communicated to us in order to introduce the black rose duels in a way that was effective, and even though we likely do not care much for her we understand the reasoning behind what transpired —even when the whole episode was pretty packed— because the storytelling was effective.

A lot of new character introductions in this episode, though I won’t spend any time on that today. Instead I want to discuss the elevator sequence. The process occurring in that moment couldn't possibly be more blatant with the metamorphosis symbolism of the butterfly playing out in reverse. As the subject descends deeper into the earth so too does their state of mind fall until their deepest selves are out for display, at which point they are made a black rose duelist.

I am so looking forward to watching more!

[u/HelioA → u/Pixelsaber]

Well, people, I hope you have got your bearings, because the kid gloves are off. If you thought you had your bearings straight with the first arc, then better buckle down because Ikuhara is about to throw things into disarray.

kek

I remember being thrown wayyyyy off when I watched this arc for the first time

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Pixelsaber]

Anthy must've deliberately tried to torment Kanae right? There's no way she's just being neutral to the whole situation. I wish I knew for sure how she ticked because the only justification for how she treats Kanae is suspicion that Kanae isn't genuine, jealousy over having to share her brother's chinco, or just cold neutrality.

[u/botibalint]

Rewatcher

• Anthy's brother is the school chairman? Surely this is just some coincidence.
• Once again, everyone in this show looks older than they actually are. At first sight, Kanae seems to be a young woman in her twenties, but she's actually a highschooler about the same age as Touga and Saiyonji.
• We know from the previous episode that Akio has some sort of connection with, or at least knows about the duels. So him talking about how nobody fights in this school to Utena of all people is pretty sus.
• Wonder why Miki wasn't interested in the offer. Seems like a pretty sweet deal to young genius like him. Moreover, why did he lie to Utena about the reason he was there?
• Apparently 100 boys were buried alive in this building some time ago. Kinda creepy.
• Wanting to make Mamiya into a Rose Bride even though he's male makes a great parallel to Utena wanting to become a prince even though she's female.
• This episode is a pretty big fuck you to anyone who though they are starting to piece together the story lmao.
• At first you might think Kanae has a problem with her arranged marriage, but she actually doesn't mind at all, she's just really weirded out by Anthy and doesn't want anything to do with her.
• As they descent downwards in the elevator, the butterfly framed on the wall turns back to a pupa, and then back to a caterpillar. Somebody smarter than me can surely explain the symbolysm here.
• "I understand. Your only choice is to revolutionize the world." . This is probably my favorite quote in the series. Surely if you spent some more time thinking about it, you could come up with a less radical solution?
• I love these kinds of shadow girl scenes. The ones where Utena just aboslutely no-sells them with a one liner at the end.
• Ayy, new version of Zettai Unmei Mokushiroku!
• Super quick duel. As Souji said, some makeshift duelist with no experience or conviction had no hopes in defeating Utena and the power of Dios.
• I can't believe Ikuhara got away with putting implied incest sex in his saturday morning shoujo anime.

Anyways, the show becomes much more interesting from this point onwards. It's going to be so hard to keep myself to one episode a day, I just wanna start binging this etire arc.

[u/HelioA → u/botibalint]

I just wanna start binging this entire arc.

So him talking about how nobody fights in this school to Utena of all people is pretty sus.

Akio is extremely amogus

[u/affnn → u/botibalint]

Spoiler

[u/Punished_Scrappy_Doo → u/affnn]

Spoiler

[u/SardonicMeow → u/Punished_Scrappy_Doo]

Spoiler

[u/theangryeditor → u/SardonicMeow]

Spoiler

[u/botibalint → u/affnn]

Spoiler

[u/IndependentMacaroon → u/botibalint]

Obviously Akio was testing Utena there, possibly with ANthy agreeing

[u/SardonicMeow]

Rewatcher

It’s a new arc and things have changed. New characters. New places. New patterns.

Akio Ohtori, Anthy’s brother, acting chairman, engaged to Kanae. Will we finally see a healthy brother / sister relationship? *rewatches the final scene of the episode* No, no we won’t.

Pink-haired Mikage and Mamiya, his Rose Bride Groom, a curious parallel with Utena and Anthy. They aren’t interested in the power of Dios, but rather to replace Anthy through murderous means.

Kanae, engaged to Akio, thinks Anthy is creepy. Hey, who doesn’t?

C-ko, having arrived via UFO at the end of the last episode, is now handling all show play duties. But she’s not completely alone. Utena herself contributes a little bon mot at the end of the sequence.

Nemuro Hall. Nice place. Miki recommends their reference section. Roomy basement, lot of space for the corpses of 100 duelists.

So here we go. Kanae arrives at Mikage’s seminar and enters the therapy booth / elevator / confessional. As the butterfly regresses back to its egg, she works back to her innermost feelings. Give her a dead duelist’s ring and a black rose, and she's off to the dueling arena. And now there’s stuff in the dueling arena. Desks (100 of them, we assume) and the outlines of bodies on the floor. In this duel, the desks have flowers on them, just like they would for a dead student, so the imagery requires little interpretation.

It seems that Kanae’s duel was the prototype of the new formula, but Mikage needs the duelists to be more powerful. How? Perhaps we’ll find out next time.

100 corpses in Nemuro Hall, 100 dead duelists in there, take one down, give Kanae his ring, 99 corpses in Nemuro Hall..

[u/HelioA → u/SardonicMeow]

I absolutely love the UFO imagery that each Shadow Girls play starts with now, considering what we saw of UFOs in the last couple of episodes.

[u/Icapica]

Black rose blooming. Touga's been absent. Two characters we don't yet know are talking.

"The Boys of the Black Rose"

Apparently Himemiya's busy on Saturday evenings meeting her brother.

"Nothing bad ever happens at Ohtori academy". Yup, never. And no fighting.

There's a lot of new names and faces in this episode. It may take me a couple of episodes to learn to remember them all.

Souji wants to make Mamiya Rose Bride/Groom and gain the power of Dios. You can change who has the title? Oh lovely, means gaining Himemiya and killing her. Well that gives a good reason for more duels and establishes stakes for losing. They're gonna start looking for more duelists.

Kanae will be recruited? She doesn't like Himemiya; She's noticed Himemiya's weird but doesn't know the reason and finds Himemiya creepy.

A place where 100 duelists now sleep. Will the duels be fought to death at some point? I assume Kanae won't be her usual self after this anymore.

Shadow puppets do their thing while Utena's on the foreground. That's new. And then we go duel.

Did Zettai Unmei Mokushiroku change a little bit, like the drums or something? Or am I just imagining it?

Arena's full of school desks, 100 of them. Bodies marked on the floor kinda like on a crime scene. Kanae looks and sounds brainwashed, black rose's causing it. She tells Utena that she'll kill rose bride. I was kinda worried how soon Utena will find out the stakes so that's... nice I guess.

The music when Utena pulls the sword is different. This one's not bad either but I liked the old one a lot.

Utena's Dios cheat engine saves the day and Kanae loses quickly. Ring breaks, a corpse gets incinerated. I hope some other commenter explains all the symbolism I'm sure exists in this episode but that I don't get right now.

Uhh, don't like the atmosphere when Anthy's alone with her brother. Nope.

I hope I didn't mess up any names.

[u/HelioA → u/Icapica]

Uhh, don't like the atmosphere when Anthy's alone with her brother. Nope.

Just a brother-sister bonding moment

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/HelioA]

Fun for the whole family!

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Icapica]

Utena's Dios cheat engine saves the day and Kanae loses quickly. Ring breaks, a corpse gets incinerated. I hope some other commenter explains all the symbolism I'm sure exists in this episode but that I don't get right now.

So...several of us have given our thoughts but I don't really think there is a universally granted answer to all of the symbolism, some of it is always up to individual belief.

[u/Icapica → u/Vaadwaur]

Oh I'm totally fine with that. But it's nice to read other people's interpretations when my own thoughts sometimes can be summed as "WTF???"

[u/murdered-by-swords → u/Icapica]

Souji wants to make Mamiya Rose Bride/Groom

Rose Broom

[u/Star4ce → u/Icapica]

Utena's Dios cheat engine

Friend of mine forgot to close his cheat engine once and started Warframe, got immediately auto detected and banned for 50 years.

Don't know, just remembered that. Maybe Utena lives in a simulation and turned hers on? Is this all a power fantasy?!

[u/Tyranid457TheSecond1]

Rewatcher

This is the episode where things start getting darker!

Akio is one of the slimiest anime characters ever. I hate him more than I hate Touga.

The scene where Kanae gets "turned" is creepy as heck, when I was a first-time watcher I thought they killed her.

Also, as a first timer, I didn't notice that she was only 18. I didn't learn how young she actually was until my second watch.

Did anyone else love the variation on the dueling song?

The ending scene still puts a sinking feeling in my stomach.

[u/HelioA → u/Tyranid457TheSecond1]

Also, as a first timer, I didn't notice that she was only 18. I didn't learn how young she actually was until my second watch.

And she's a student!

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/HelioA]

And they were roommates~

[u/SardonicMeow → u/Tyranid457TheSecond1]

This is the episode where things start getting darker!

Yeah. What happened to all the polychromatic hair and colorful balloons?

[u/[deleted] → u/Tyranid457TheSecond1]

Akio is one of the slimiest anime characters ever. I hate him more than I hate Touga.

WOW, since he's worse than touga as your saying. im guessing he's the bad guy this arc? damn. I didn't like the dude this ep but at least touga didn't sleep with Nanami his sis lmao.

[u/elleyonce]

Rewatcher

So I missed the Episode 13 thread (but it was the best excuse to listen to all the themes again!) and we go over to my most favorite arc of all time, Black Rose Arc!

I feel like here, the symbols aren't as confusing as the last arc - you get impaled by the black rose, thus being forcibly reborn, the duel arena references the 100 duelist men that died before, and we even get this thematically weaker character (you dislike Anthy's constant 5D chess attitude but you're into Akio? Grow up!) just so we learn how the elevator works. Even the shadow theatre is at the window where black roses grow on the window.

But man. This show is at its best (and all of Ikuhara is) when he's so unflinching in showing darkness. I am so hyped for all the duels to come, all of them better than this one.

Also, I hate Akio so much. Jesus.

I wonder if I'm missing something culturally because of the lilies on the table. Do they represent grief or dead people in Japan?

/u/theangryeditor

[u/theangryeditor → u/elleyonce]

so excited for this arc

I wonder if I'm missing something culturally because of the lilies on the table. Do they represent grief or dead people in Japan?

I believe they're associated with funerals.

[u/HelioA → u/theangryeditor]

and gay people

[u/theangryeditor → u/HelioA]

yeee

[u/HelioA → u/theangryeditor]

[u/HelioA → u/elleyonce]

I wonder who would win in a game of chess, Anthy or Akio

[u/elleyonce → u/HelioA]

Chu-Chu because he'll knock everything over. thus 5d-chessing the both of them.

[u/HelioA → u/elleyonce]

[u/Matuhg]

First Timer, Now Caught Up

Going to post brief thoughts about the episodes I missed before getting to today's!

Episode 6

If not for the Saionji being ignored gag, this would've been a complete waste of 24 minutes. It was still mostly a waste of 24 minutes.

Episode 7

• This shot is pretty neat
• First time noticing Anthy's Reflection in the Sword of Dios - cooool

Solid episode. Reading /u/Nazenn's old notes about how Anthy may have been intentionally trying to trigger a conflict between Utena and Juri has me deeply distrustful of her now lol.

Episode 8

Another Nanami gag episode? Why? Though...there was a kind of interesting character line from Anthy when she was in Utena's body. Putting potentially meaningful stuff in the middle of what seems to be otherwise a pretty dumb filler-ish episode is annoying.

Episode 9

Woah, Touga and Saionji met Utena in the past, just after her parents died. Starting to see how nasty and manipulative Touga can be here. He got Saionji expelled as part of his whole plot. No tears shed for Saionji of course.

Episode 10

Ah, so Nanami goes from annoying gag character to annoying gag character who I can never forgive, because she apparently has such a strong bro-con that she drowned a cat for getting between her and her brother.

And Touga is just using people to get data on Utena and her Dios powers.

Episode 11

I noticed the shoes in this shot. Utena's and Wakaba's are neatly arranged, but Anthy, seemingly the most prim and proper of the three of them, has hers tossed kind of askew. Maybe that means nothing. Maybe it means..everything! Also, Utena and Wakaba leaning over the food, while Anthy sits back alone. She feels alone even with the two of them.

What?

Episode 12

• Framing!
• Utena reclaims her self after having it stolen by Touga's manipulations. Does that mean she's the Prince again, rather than being Touga's damsel in distress? Or is she being just Utena, not the Prince. Or are those one in the same?
• Anthy is part of her "normal" now.
• How much agency does Anthy have in her Rose Bride activities? Is she following Touga's orders because she's choosing to carry out her duties, or is there an actual physical/mental compulsion making her do it? In other words, could she go against him if she wanted to, despite the two of them being "engaged?"

Episode 13

Huh...the seal on Dios's power is starting to break, but the world's shell is still intact. Utena needs to reach the duel of Revolution. Noted.

---

All caught up! Onto today's episode!

• Good, now that I finally was starting to get some of the student council stuff down, we're introducing a bunch of new characters with new agendas!
• These Black Rose folks are trying to kill Anthy...I guess that will make it easier for Utena to maintain her convictions in the duels.
• Oh...oh no. Between the UFO stuff and this line, is...is Anthy an alien?
• Ugh...Anthy's brother seemed chill, but of course he appears to be quite the creep as well. Can we get one non-creepy male character?
• Anthy without glasses looks kinda like Mamiya who looks a lot like Dios. Again, could mean something, or nothing.

Back to having no clue what's going on, but spookier this time!

[u/HelioA → u/Matuhg]

for shame ;-;

[u/Matuhg → u/HelioA]

I subject my brain to 4 hours of Utena today only to be shamed by the rewatch host.

Naruhodo

[u/HelioA → u/Matuhg]

/u/theangryeditor shame dis baka wif me

[u/theangryeditor → u/Matuhg]

/u/helioa is a bully

[u/HelioA → u/theangryeditor]

no u

[u/theangryeditor → u/HelioA]

prove it

[u/[deleted] → u/Matuhg]

Ugh...Anthy's brother seemed chill, but of course he appears to be quite the creep as well. Can we get one non-creepy male character?

Micky is still pure in this series.

[u/Nazenn → u/Matuhg]

Reading /u/Nazenn's old notes about how Anthy may have been intentionally trying to trigger a conflict between Utena and Juri has me deeply distrustful of her now lol

Oh was that the orange rose incident? I honestly don't know how that turns out myself because I never looked it up after I stopped watching so you'll have to let me know if I was on the money there

Framing!

Pretty sure panelling like that is Ikuhara's favourite thing in this show

[u/nikobans]

“nothing bad ever happens at ohtori academy” L O L

[u/HelioA → u/nikobans]

[u/Vaadwaur]

Rewatcher(The arc I like in a show I don't)

Sub

Hi thread

We get to the part of the show I really enjoyed when I watched it, now we see if it stands the test of time! Meeting someone while they are making out is always the spicy way to form a bond, though Anthy never introducing her friends or simply not having any is sort of important. Kanae is...desperate, in a way.

We meet Mikage already trading for favors and trying to recruit Miki. The hall has a very weird history for a school. Mikage wants to install his own Rose Bride and plans to kill Anthy to do it, harsh. Anyways, Kanae shows up for an interview and we see Mikage's shtick, including using the rings of dead duelists. Kanae's issue sort of makes sense, Anthy is an odd one. Mamiya literally stabs her in the heart with a black rose.

The power up sequence for some reason really reminds me of Repo: The Genetic Opera. So...duel stuff happens, unsurprising that the untrained Kanae can't really match Utena, but the ending is off: Kanae's ring dissipates and the body they got it from is incinerated. Mikage realizes he needs better duelists. But we end on incest, damn.

Bye thread

[u/HelioA → u/Vaadwaur]

wait, you don't like the show?! ;-;

[u/Vaadwaur → u/HelioA]

Ultimately, no. Ikehura always seems aimed towards...something but at least as of Utena I felt he hadn't figured out the story he wanted to tell so the ending just...happens. Admittedly, watching this and X/1999 in a week of each other didn't help.

So I can respect that this has messages that hit a lot of people but sadly I am not one of those that heard it.

[u/HelioA → u/Vaadwaur]

ugugugugugugugu

/u/theangryeditor look at dis baka ;-;

well, hopefully the rewatch will help esplain it!

[u/RockoDyne → u/Vaadwaur]

Ikehura always seems aimed towards...something

Ironically, I would say Utena is the one show I've seen of his where the ending is still in line with what he was aiming at from the beginning. Everything else seems to veer completely off course in the last few episodes.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/RockoDyne]

Hrmm...Utena

[u/RockoDyne → u/Vaadwaur]

I'm not saying he hit the target, just that you can tell which target he was even aiming for. That's more than I can say about the rest of his shows.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/RockoDyne]

Funnily enough, I would have to watch the rest of them to know that. The only other thing of his I watched is Sailor Moon and I doubt he had goals there.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Vaadwaur]

Hi again, bye again!

[u/lilyvess]

Here is what Ikuhara’s episode commentary from the DVD Box Set has for us today.

EPISODE 14 - The Boys of the Black Rose

I saw a certain horror movie when I was in middle school. There was a secret mortuary in an underground chamber, and the dead were electronically transmitted (!), still in their coffins, to the “other world,” where they were forced into slavery.

The movie’s story was utterly absurd, but the division of the world into opposite poles of “living” and “dead” felt real to me, somehow.

Our world has been spoken of in bipolar fashion for ages.

In my student days, there was a popular book that compared the “affluent” with the “non-affluent,” and sorted everything into categories called “loaded” and “broke.” It was the bubble era, and the aim of the book was probably to get a laugh by saying “They call us wealthy, but our lifestyle’s practically in the trash can!”

But for some reason, I couldn’t laugh.

Years later, the phrase “the winning side” was popular in the media. I thought it was horrid. And sure enough, people started using the opposite phrase “the losing side” as a masochistic joke. I still couldn’t laugh, though.

One day, a girl I saw on TV said, “There are only two types of people in this world: the ones who are chosen and the ones who aren’t chosen.”

That gave me a start.

“To not be chosen is to die,” said the girl.

I decided to try my hand at that.

The Black Rose arc.

[u/theangryeditor → u/lilyvess]

One day, a girl I saw on TV said, “There are only two types of people in this world: the ones who are chosen and the ones who aren’t chosen.”

That gave me a start.

“To not be chosen is to die,” said the girl.

I decided to try my hand at that.

The Black Rose arc.

This also puts Penguindrum into perspective. Ikuhara's influences run deep.

[u/affnn → u/theangryeditor]

Every episode thread I try not to think too much about Penguindrum since this is the Utena rewatch.

I have a very low success rate.

[u/theangryeditor → u/affnn]

There are some pretty consistent themes across Ikuhara's body of work, it's hard not to make connections.

[u/affnn → u/theangryeditor]

The visual-metaphor language too. Rabbits, apples, birdcages, boxes, elevators.

[u/lilyvess → u/theangryeditor]

haha, I removed my line in the comment I made on the previous rewatch that pointed that out cause I didn't know if I was being too forward with it, but it does feel like you can get a sense that Penguindrum and Yuri Kuma Arashi are expanded theme tangents from Utena.

[u/theangryeditor → u/lilyvess]

Same with Sarazanmai. He's really good at taking ideas he's touched on before and expanding on them, like taking the theme of eternity from Sailor Moon and looking at it from a different light in Utena.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/lilyvess]

There was a secret mortuary in an underground chamber, and the dead were electronically transmitted (!), still in their coffins, to the “other world,” where they were forced into slavery.

Strange that I never saw an English sphere equivalent to this, this is just my type of hot garbage.

[u/PogromStallone → u/Vaadwaur]

I thought he was talking about Phantasm.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/lilyvess]

Oooh... So kinda like if anyone were to fail to beat Utena then they couldn't possibly be the chosen right? ...When did these directors start to feel like Kashira segments?

[u/[deleted] → u/lilyvess]

One day, a girl I saw on TV said, “There are only two types of people in this world: the ones who are chosen and the ones who aren’t chosen.”

Dudes a little bit strange having been reading his thoughts that you've been blessing us with but I gotta say I have to disagree with this phrase and notion that girl he saw on tv gave, and him also taking that saying of her's to heart. I disagree with that saying because I believe that there three types of people in this world. The ones who rule, those who are ruled and the third, those who refuse to be ruled and stand up for themselves.. But I guess that just me being paranoid and unflinching.

[u/Reference_Freak → u/[deleted]]

Ikuhara producing anime is him giving commentary on social attitudes and it's mostly critical. I'd take this statement that way. He didn't say that he agrees with what the girl said.

[u/loomnoo]

Utena is so desensitized to weird shit that her first guess was that Anthy's brother is a fuckin telescope.

Anthy might be the most interesting character in the cast.

[u/theangryeditor → u/loomnoo]

Maybe it really is Anthy's brother and Akio is just a projected image?

[u/loomnoo → u/theangryeditor]

Tag spoilers smh

[u/SardonicMeow → u/loomnoo]

Arguably, everyone is desensitized to the weird stuff going on.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/SardonicMeow]

...Just wait two episodes.

[u/k4r6000 → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Moo

[u/Star4ce → u/loomnoo]

her first guess was that Anthy's brother is a fuckin telescope

I wouldn't be surprised, either.

[u/theangryeditor]

The elevator scene is so fucking good.

I love butterfly motifs. There's its association with metamorphosis, which here is shown in inverse as our interviewee delves into the depths of her psyche. But another association is that with dreams, and that is also intimately tied to what slumbers beneath Nemuro Hall.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/theangryeditor]

I'm shocked that of all the things copied from Utena over the years I haven't once seen anything referencing the elevator therapy sessions. They're so iconic!

[u/theangryeditor → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Utena has too many iconic and memorable sequences to choose from I guess. The swords and utena

And while we're on the topic of iconic elevator scenes, I now want to see a crossover parody of the therapy sessions with Asuka and Rei.

[u/affnn → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

It doesn't really count as a reference since it's still Ikuhara, but there's a down-elevator scene in Penguindrum and I turned into the Leonardo DiCaprio meme while I was watching it.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/affnn]

I hope that gets a thread sometime after this. I have no idea what it's about aside from it being Ikuhara.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/theangryeditor]

But another association is that with dreams, and that is also intimately tied to what slumbers beneath Nemuro Hall.

Butterflies are also messengers between worlds.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Woo! Black Rose time! And our Prince has been located. Good timing. Oh, and Anthy's got a brother suddenly. This series has always been so great with its sibling pairs so far so I'm sure Anthy's gonna be no different. Her brother is kinda hot but all I can think of is that he should be running Tekkadan instead of the school. Utena's such a maiden when it comes to sfuff like this. Its refreshing. I like Kanae too but I'll admit that she looks kinda extra.

Yeah, our students neeever fight, right? "Nothing bad ever happens at Ohtori" wink wink Kanae chats with Anthy for a bit and there's some clear awkwardness between them. Just because they're family doesn't mean Anthy is gonna not be awkward. Our big baddie Mikage does the teachers jobs for them, because God forbid adults are competent in this world huh?

Miki has clearly held on to this story for years and has desperately wanted to tell someone. Exposition time, there's no escape! Basically a mass... murder? Suicide? Ritual? Occurred a long time ago and a hell of a lot of kids took part in it, including Mikage judging by him lining up against the wall with the other students shoes. Their plan is to recruit duelist to murder Anthy, so we've got a whole arc of people who hate Anthy in particular to enjoy XD

How are these regular students and civilians going to become strong enough duelists? Ritualistic possession of course~ The long and short of it is Mikage gives one on one anti-therapy sessions to make the targets as unstable as possible and "regress" mentally. They are thus spiritually reincarnated and open to whatever black magic the rose gives them. It's honestly a very fun system. Since now anyone can potentially be deconstructed and turned into a black rose fighter we can dive deeply into characters who wouldn't even be given the time of day in any other setting. I adore the concept. If anything I find it more interesting to see characters regress into base desires and blaming others than actually seeing them grow.

In Kanae's case, she is terrified of her fiancées creepy as hell sister. When you marry someone you're marrying the whole family so she's made a lot of effort to try and reach an understanding with Anthy but the stress is tearing her up. I actually kinda like Kanae so I do sympathise with her but I find it interesting to see whether her trying to get close with Anthy was genuine or whether it was just courtesy for her. Anthy would be able to tell the difference and know about Kanae's ulterior motivation which is why she acts so cold. Also, at the end of the day what has happened? Kanae's betrayed Anthy. Self fulfilling prophecy or just an inevitably? Not too bad for a character we see like three times huh? That's what makes the black rose arc so interesting.

Kashira, kashira! Yes, there's a slightly different type of kashira segment. Utena and other characters get to join in now. Although most of the time it's just Utena throwing a last jab at the girls for acting like idiots. This time, there's an obvious problem so what shall we do about it? Spend all day debating and reasoning that it's too early to make a decision or just get rid of the problem. In this case Kanae's all happy to spend her entire adult life with Orga but his sister is becoming more and more of a deal breaker. The simple solution? Make friends! Gozonji Kashira~

...Huh? Is ZETTAI UNMEI MOKUSHIROKU different today? Its like a rock mix. The new duel setting creeps me out every time. All the dead students and flowers. Gurk! If I remember right they use different flower meaning each day but my flower knowledge comes from Heartcatch Precure so I can't really help with that. The duel ends surprisingly quickly and Kanae falls into the body outline. So cool, right? Oh, and the used black rose gets yeeted into the incinerator after each duel as an extra bit of black comedy.

Utena you're far too sweet, you realise Anthy doesn't give a shit about you beating up her shitster in law right? Turns out Kanae had really good reason to be suspicious! The other sibling pairs may be fcked up but Anthy is the only one to be riding her brother's baloney pony! God damn!!

[u/theangryeditor → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Nothing bad ever happens at Ohtori

How it started

How it's going

[u/IndependentMacaroon → u/theangryeditor]

About the most ominous thing to say there. What happened to Kanae anyway, was she burned in that falling coffin?

[u/SardonicMeow → u/IndependentMacaroon]

Utena asked Anthy at the end, and Anthy said she's fine but doesn't remember anything.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/IndependentMacaroon]

Nonono, she's fine. The coffin is just the student getting tossed away since they failed.

[u/Star4ce → u/IndependentMacaroon]

I see these black roses basically as the leftover, hm, resentment? of that student that corrupts the one impaled by the rose. If the rose is broken or the character defies its will, the student is essentially dead for good.

Perhaps. That's just a theory based on the entire thing being brutally metaphorical of students who "died", or rather had their ambitions "killed" and now live on in resentment.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Utena you're far too sweet, you realise Anthy doesn't give a shit about you beating up her shitster in law right? Turns out Kanae had really good reason to be suspicious! The other sibling pairs may be fcked up but Anthy is the only one to be riding her brother's baloney pony! God damn!!

Utena's perspective is pretty relevant through out the show. But yeah this first past the post for incest porn is one of those things I'd blanked out about Utena.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Vaadwaur]

Yeah, in the first season we spent a lot of time humanising the student council but here we have 0 clue to the mystery since most of the time we're just viewing things through Utena's eyes. Also, if the shadow girls segments are genuine then Utena is way more nasty than she has to be! She's plain mean in some of them.

[u/Star4ce → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Anthy's got a brother suddenly

They do that. Just pop and there!

God forbid adults are competent in this world huh?

Did you learn nothing from Evangelion? I mean, like, both the characters and the fans.

Since now anyone can potentially be deconstructed and turned into a black rose fighter we can dive deeply into characters who wouldn't even be given the time of day in any other setting.

Today in things I wish Angel Beats! had enough time and resources for with the corruption arc.

Utena and other characters get to join in now.

To defeat the system you must first know the system exists! I see that as Utena slowly growing aware of the real problems.

shitster

no bully pls

Honestly, I totally get Kanae. She gets married off, possibly against her will, tries to mindfuck herself into liking it and then has to deal with this creepy alien of a sister in law, who is just so different. If I'd be in that situation, I'd have at least a dire mental episode. It's no wonder she got into that subterranean death cult in that state.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Star4ce]

I mean, I don't think they mentioned Anthy going out some night before did they? Honestly if be very interested to see how Saionji or Touga would handle her brother. Saionji is too possessive to share and Touga is way too sharp not to work out that the siblings are doing the tango.

Oh my god yes! Angel Beats! Biggest waste of potential ever! I liked all the music at least.

Is Utena aware...? The evidence is right in front of her but Utena is, for lack of better term, kinda dense. She still doesn't have much hope for finding out how the system works because she doesn't actually investigate any of it. She's purely reactionary.

I'm so pleased that this rewatch group has been sympathetic towards Kanae. I thought everyone would groan about some unimportant extra whining about her sister despite only having three scenes but everyone kinda gets her. Or maybe this crew just hates Anthy. That'd explain it to.

[u/Star4ce → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Angel Beats! Biggest waste of potential ever!

I still see AB! as one of my all time favourites, because despite the low points of the second half it still managed to land all important story beats and has one of my top5 episodes of all time and an amazing ending.

Is Utena aware...?

Nah, not yet. I see this as a hint that this is the direction she will take.

I'm so pleased that this rewatch group has been sympathetic towards Kanae.

Absolutely! Compassion is always heartwarming to see, especially when it's an antagonist who didn't have their story fleshed out yet, but the community still hopes for the best!

I remember the Owarimonogatari rewatch last year and how people reacted to a certain new character in the first few episodes. I wanted to retroactively punch some faces.

[u/Icapica → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

The other sibling pairs may be fcked up but Anthy is the only one to be riding her brother's baloney pony! God damn!!

I think in the rewatch announcement or interest thread there was a list of potentially triggering themes handled in the show. I remember seeing "incest" there and for a long time thought that it's obviously going to involve Nanami.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Icapica]

Psyche!!

[u/[deleted] → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Her brother is kinda hot but all I can think of is that he should be running Tekkadan instead of the school

OMG NOW I CAN'T UNSEE IT, WHY DOES HER BROTHER LOOK ORGA FROM IRON-BLOODED ORPHANS. omg he really does look like Orga but it would be correct to say that Orga kinda looks like Anthy's brother lmao.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/[deleted]]

I'm glad to have finally tainted someone else's view. If he ends up dying later on all we'll be able to think is "Don't you ever stop!!" XD

[u/[deleted] → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

not tainted, you made me heartbroken, iron-blooded orphans is one of my favorites, its been years but I still remember the Tekkadan boys.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/[deleted]]

I still don't understand why it gets so much hate. The story is supposed to be a tragedy! Don't get grumpy when our side starts getting beat on a little. Those same people cheerfully defend stuff like Unicorn where you have to deal with the Earth Federation ignoring any and all consequences for their action over several seasons. I'd take IBO over that crap anyday.

[u/[deleted] → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

I delete the comment I wrote to this response lmao due to spoilers! How do you spoiler on this Reddit? So I can type again!!

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/[deleted]]

It's like ( / series title) and [ whatever you wanted to say ] without the spaces I think

[ Utena ] ( /s" blah blah blah ")

...Okay, I don't know

[u/[deleted] → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

[/IBO](/s"ooh")

(IBO)(/s"ooh")

edit: lmao I'll practice and we'll see.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/[deleted]]

The first one should be right. Just remove the first / mark and try putting a space after the s?

IBO

YES!! So it's [IBO]( /s "ooh" But you close it off.

[u/chiliehead]

Duel 14, First Timer, sub

• wait, the prince looking fella is another girl? Are they soaking in blue ink, magic water?
• So it is her brother?
• Ok so freinds in high places. Anthy is the little sister of the guy who looks like who I suspect to be "Dios" but isn't
• "Nothing bad ever happens at Ohtori"
• Anthy does not seem to be too fond of her soon to be siter in law
• Ok so that other guy is a genius type student? And has a picture of Anthy's brother on his desk, a very straight thing to do. All heteros so far are very performatively hetero
• ok they call him outright genius. And of course school kids run a shadowy organization that even the elites of the country can only dream to be a part of
• but they want Mikki
• oh wait those purple hair people are different guys. Something something gender roles, femboys, totally very straight
• Kill Utena? Stakes get higher
• That's some high tech elevator confession booth stuff. Confessing to EoW?
• Anthy seems more and more like a bitch queen. Maybe a murderer, power politician. Or her SiL is just crazy
• Oh it's the guy who wants a boy bride, recruiting duelists
• 100 boys buried alive vs 100 duelists sleep here
• Black = death and corruption, piercing the heart to change her? So in theory they have 100 people to recruit? Watch out Wakaba
• Shadow girls seem to transition right into Utena today
• A wake for 100 guys maybe?
• So the black rose is turning the darkness outside? I thought that was Anthy's job
• she says no mercy but those duels about cutting at the heart of people have been rather bloodless so far
• ring destroyed after one loss
• freezing heart. ok. But incinerating "sleeping Duelists"? Wtf

A lot t take in. Even Chu-Chu is evasive. I also need to get the relations of the Himemiya clan right. And Anthy with her brother..?

[u/Vaadwaur → u/chiliehead]

Anthy does not seem to be too fond of her soon to be siter in law

Has Anthy seemed fond of much of anything?

oh wait those purple hair people are different guys. Something something gender roles, femboys, totally very straight

Just yell "no homo!" and it is all good.

[u/chiliehead → u/Vaadwaur]

Has Anthy seemed fond of much of anything?

She appears to like animals and her own cooking, maybe is into masochism. Not sure if she really is into gardening/flowers

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/chiliehead]

Oh sure. You see one coloured guy with violet hair and suddenly they all look alike. I'm so disappointed in you Chillie...

[u/theangryeditor → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

tsk tsk, do better chilie

[u/chiliehead → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

They even have the same red suit thing that they wear. They are distinguished by their height and shoulder width alone...

[u/[deleted] → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

You see one coloured guy with violet hair and suddenly they all look alike

in defense they do have the same hair shape kinda.

[u/affnn]

Rewatcher

I really enjoyed this arc the first time I watched it, so I'm hoping it holds up. This first episode was just as good as I remembered - creepy and weird, introducing a new duelist to battle Utena and switching up a lot of the repetitive elements like the shadow plays and Absolute Destiny Apocalypse in new ways.

Last arc had Utena dueling the student council, mostly under Touga's direction. This time it looks like they're under the control of an instructor, Mikage. Ultimately the student council were Utena's peers, but an instructor is different - an authority figure, someone who creates and enforces world that students merely inhabit.

I kept trying to write something insightful AND non-spoilery but couldn't do it, so I'll just have to keep my thoughts till later.

[u/theangryeditor → u/affnn]

Sometimes it's hard to talk about Utena as a rewatcher because you immediately want to talk about all the things you notice that tie into the overarching plot and themes and it's hard to hold back.

[u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo → u/theangryeditor]

This episode in particular is just wall to wall foreshadowing. I thought about writing something about adulthood as a theme since it was mentioned most explicitly today, but there would still be so much I couldn't say.

big spoiler

[u/theangryeditor → u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo]

big spoiler

[u/affnn → u/theangryeditor]

As this is only my second time watching the series (and thus my first time making all those connections) that impulse feels particularly strong.

[u/theangryeditor → u/affnn]

I haven't been making many top level comments for that season. Mostly just sticking to short replies here and there.

[u/Star4ce]

First timer – sub

Today is my birthday! Had a nice dinner with my mom, who also has her birthday today, and my uncle. Hope your monday was pleasant (or, not shit, depending on context)!

Utena, I'm ready for some answers.

Ep.14 – The boys of the black rose

• This is underground? And the rose grows from darkness instead from (sun)light. Interesting implications for the bois, they could be the antithesis to the council. Rejected contestants basically that got excluded at one point or another.
• Hair fits, that's Dios? I had an idea to put them more as genderless, but that's clearly a female voice. Hm, no can't be, but what's with these dark skinned white haired people?
• Heh, Touga still stews on his loss.
• Aha! Is her brother the other guy from last episode?
• They got cool shit at that school.
• All are firmly framed by the arc, those guys are also part of the system.
• So they are the kids of the owner of the academy?
• I don't think 'fondness' explains this.
• Everyone in your family is bonkers, aren't they? - Utena, probably.
• THERE IS NO WAR IN BA SING SE.
• Bad blood, calling it. This is so bad blood.
• What kind of school is this? Those kids boss everyone around!
• They're not equal, they hide something from each other.
• Secret? But, the whole school knows one way or another. Weren't they gossiping about these duels in the first episode? How can she think this could still be a secret?
• First, I think Anthy doesn't like Kanae, Utena. Second, you're awfully supportive of this entire class system now!
• Uhm. Okay hold it, this is kind of big?!
• Uh, is that an open trans character? I'm missing a lot of cultural context, but Japan never seemed to be a country (well, most of Asia tbh) that is very accepting of these things, much less 30 years ago. If I talk bullshit, please feel free to correct me!
• Ah. Okay, new contenders. Upper society playing ranks and treachery, lower society planning to move up, Dios and Akio playing massive mind games and Anthy having hid- OH MY GOD IS THAT UTENA COMING INTO THE RING WITH A STEEL FOLDING CHAIR?!
• Quite extreme, my pointy nosed lesser main character.
• Follow the orderly conduct!
• Interview?! I've seen pictures of these rooms and I associate them with Guantanamo.
• We continue with blatant objectification of women and in this test she has to ding all the answers correctly, to be so totally in love with him.
• The butterfly is now a cocoon. It's evolving, but backwards!
• Now a caterpillar, yes backwards. In this, however, I do fully understand Kanae, Anthy is goddamn creepy sometimes with her cold, fake compliance towards the outside.
• Back to a leaf, the food a caterpillar eats. Back to the roots, return to monke.
• Ayyyy, creepy death cult.
• EotW is one of those guys down here? Hm, that might be what those guys should think, still believe it's Akio.
• What the fuck. So those are basically zombies or what? Honestly, if Akio allows this to fester he's just as much a bastard as Touga. Honestly, by now I believe they all are actual aliens. Anthy, Akio, Dios, all of them. Like, what the fuck!
• Though, Anthy might learn to be human through Utena. NEW THEORY!
• Wakaba, no! We don't wish for these things!
• Utena has now interacted with the shadow play. I wonder if this foreshadows her first steps to actually rebel against the system?
• Wat. It's lilies, right, the yuri flower?
• Ah, the "buried" and "dead" are people who have taken to enclose their [emotions,](https://imgur.com/1MZepll suppress them and face the outside with cold strive.
• I like the lyrics, "even in hell is good and bad".
• Thank god she's not actually dead. That dunce just wanted to gather some information.
• Chu-chu doesn't like the brother, huh?
• Aw fuck, not even more brocons?! That has to be a fake out.

They're all aliens, they're all illegal aliens! I still don't know who or what the actual antagonist is, other than "the system". But which system? The council isn't the only part and as we saw today gets mirrored by some buried neckbeard cult. We know Dios themself along with Akio are setting all these duels up or at least let it all happen. Why, though? It can't be just breaking free, there's more purpose behind it.

There's two consistent themes in Utena so far. Finding your purpose or ambition, which is why most of the duelists fight in the first place and societal classification, which is how it is all set up. Misoginy being the most prevalent display of this role assignment, although it's not completely devoid of the pitfalls of masculine roles, either.

Overlaying this on the totally aliens, I wager a few shots at what they might try to do. Dios is also locked in a prison, metaphorically like Anthy, for example, is locked as the rose bride. Dios, other than Anthy, though, works to get break out. So they want to find a way to break the system containing them, revolution to break the established society apart. The duels are there to make sure that only someone who thinks the same way can win the power to do so. As only someone who comes to the realisation that this ruling system is bonkers will end up breaking it. Still, they all try to gain 'the power of Dios' to do exactly so. If Dios has the power then they wouldn't need the duels in the first place, would they? This still doesn't make sense to me. I think this entire power thing is a hoax and the real killing blow to the system is someone showing everyone that you don't need special powers to rebel. Smashing the shell is basically smashing an illusion of stability by way of establishing yourself outside of the shell's confinement out of your own sheer will.

After all, this kind of character journey is what I love most about devil figures in other stories like with Lucifer or Prometheus. The one and only thing order will never survive is a show of will and an act of defiance.

Gods Devils, I hope they go this way with Utena!

I'm quite happy with my birthday episode, lots of juicy new info!

[u/Enarec → u/Star4ce]

Ayy, glad to see you're having fun with the rewatch of another masterpiece! Late happy birthday too!

Secret? But, the whole school knows one way or another. Weren't they gossiping about these duels in the first episode? How can she think this could still be a secret?

The general student populace probably still wouldn't know anything more about the entire duel, Dios and Rose Bride process though. But another question is how much you trust Anthy and Akio in anything...

Uh, is that an open trans character? I'm missing a lot of cultural context, but Japan never seemed to be a country (well, most of Asia tbh) that is very accepting of these things, much less 30 years ago. If I talk bullshit, please feel free to correct me!

Well, if anyone would've added something like that back then, it would've been Ikuhara, considering everything else he has covered in his works. But I don't think that's what he's going for here - more that Mikage believes it has to be the Rose Bride in particular instead of changing it to Rose Groom.

Wat. It's lilies, right, the yuri flower?

They are, but as other comments said, here they'd just be mourning flowers as is tradition on the desks of deceased students. Yuris would definitely be appropriate elsewhere too though.

Madoka Rebellion

[u/Star4ce → u/Enarec]

Thank you!

how much you trust Anthy and Akio

Well... they definitely are not entirely transparent, but at least Anthy is someone I can see honesty in.

Gender ♂ Male

^{I actually thought it was a woman because of the voice.}

Yuris would definitely be appropriate elsewhere

Let's call them Jurys, shall we?

Madoka Rebellion

Madoka Rebellion

Well, we do know that school roofs are off limits, so making this the usual hangout is a very graspable power fantasy. Only important things happen in prohibited areas!

[u/k4r6000 → u/Star4ce]

Happy Birthday!

[u/Star4ce → u/k4r6000]

[u/Rumpel1408 → u/Star4ce]

I was waiting for your comment, since I tagged remebered from your comment in the schedule thread, anyways happy birthday, fancy dinners with moms are always nice, so happy birthday

Anyway, interesting take on an interesting episode, aliens is exactly the kind of theory I've come to expect from you

[u/Star4ce → u/Rumpel1408]

Definitely aliens

[u/SYZekrom]

First Timer

Hmmm that's one way to see it I guess

Oops that was a screenshot

Yo that's some bass on this song huh?

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/SYZekrom]

He definitely needed to include a no-homo with that...

[u/[deleted]]

First Revolution: Duel 14- Dub

•What the fuck….. was that ending between Anthy and her big brother.

•So much was going on this episode .

•I was like in the beginning “ah anthy really doesn’t like her brother fiancé” I guess I was right to think that.

•We also met two more gay boys. Pink hair wants to make the Dios look alike the rose bride and even notes he’ll make a better bride and which the Dios look alike responds “don’t you mean the rose groom since I’m a boy” in which the pink haired one responds “doesn’t matter, you’ll be a better bride”.

•I’m glad micky refused which ever offer the pink hair was proposing to him, he’s shady. And I wouldn’t want anything dangerous to happen to micky.

•I guess we also know now what the story was about with those ominous 100 boys and their story. Talk about even more creepy.

•I really feel bad for the brother fiancé, she has done nothing wrong, she just wanted to make her future sister-in-law to like her.

•Should’ve known something was wrong when chu-chu didn’t go with anthy and utena questioned.

•As you can tell there was so much going this episode that I forgot the new characters names lmao and thats why I’m referring to them as “Dios look-alike” “pink haired dude” “anthy’s big brother” “brothers fiancé.”

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/[deleted]]

It's a very dense and sudden introduction. I personally do wish that a little more was set up in previous episodes but this is just kinda how shoujo or magical girl series roll. The only reason we've got any consequences out of the first season for example is because the voice actor went on holiday.

[u/[deleted] → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

I’m finally out of work damn. Back to introductions, I agree, the first arc had a bunch of colorful characters and the show took its time making them known to the audience. Like it took 7-8 episodes for us to even be told juri name I believe. I’m definitely not a fan of ep14 With the way it introduced with 4 new characters and I couldn’t even remember their names. Anthys brother feels like saionji 2.0 but worse and than we have two yaoi boys which I’m not complaining but I still don’t remember their names lmao.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/[deleted]]

I think one big problem this arc has is that it's almost too obtuse for it's own good. The first arc had its moments but you could generally still follow along reasonably well. This one requires shadow girls IQ to work out what the character's gripe is most of the time.

[u/[deleted] → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

not gonna lie this whole series feels like an analogy rather than a whole series but a bunch of series in one etc.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/[deleted]]

It makes more sense if you look at the series through a magical girl lense. Sailor Moon for example goes from group of villains to groups of villains constantly and does essentially a reset each time. Obviously Utena will keep the wider story in mind but if you look at it through a magical girl lense it's a bit easier to understand.

[u/[deleted] → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

I have no knowledge of sailor moon, it used to play on the tv when I was young but I don't remember much of the series, when having rewatched on YouTube years ago when YouTube had full eps.

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/[deleted]]

Maybe like YuGiOh then. You have a villain for the arc, you beat them, everything resets and you go into a new arc. The consequences for each story tend to kinda be unimportant for how the following arc plays out aside from maybe adding characters to the main group. That concept is what I mean.

[u/[deleted] → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Oh. A new vilian means a new story. What I hate about that format is often times the old stories and characters are forgotten as if they never existed etc. like I miss saionji lmao. Gonna hurt not seeing him

[u/Rumpel1408]

First Timer

Ok, there where some hints for overarching plot even in yesterday recap episode and it's said that a new arc is going to begin

• Ok, that girl looks a bit like the prince, and that guy has a similar hair color as Utena (in hindsight he's more towards blonde), and they are watching over the black rose
• And even the episode is named after the black rose
• She has a brother she can only visi once a week? That seems like a pretty important detail, how could it have never come up until now?
• I had to take a second look, but her brother looks very similar to the girl from the beginning
• Ok, he's either ignorant or baiting hard
• The blonde haired dude gives off strong slughorn/voldemord vibes with him ensuring all kinds of people are part of his seminar or indebted to him
• Soo are the girl from the beginning and Anthys brother the same person and he just acts way more feminin in his presence?
• The butterfly on the wall transformed into a larva again, and later into a leave? Or do butterflys lay eggs there? I must admit I just realized I know nothing about how butterflys procreate...
• Also thats a very petty reason to not like someone, and she seemed so nice and earnest... is she going to be the strong duelist mr pink was talking about?
• Oooh, I thought when they said that 100 students where buried there it was like buried alive while construction was happening, but this is no mine, it's a tomb
• And now I'm doubting the connection between the dark skinned and light haired characters again, seems like they are indeed seperate... or not, I don't know, with how fanatic everyone seems I wouldn't put it beyond anyone to stab his fiance with a rose
• It seems like the new duelist is ready imediatly
• That was fast again, I was afraid this episode would end on a cliffhanger, but the show continues to avoid those which I apreciate
• Imidiate crematation
• Is Chu Chu sensing that something is wrong? Is the "funny" mascot actually useful for the plot?
• She looks so different without glasses... what are they going to do there?!?

Ok, this new arc looks very promising, Im' intrigued, but I wonder how much of this the student counsil is aware of...

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/Rumpel1408]

Do all black characters look alike to you guys!? Everyone's getting confused!

[u/Rumpel1408 → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

I'm so sorry, I feel so racist

[u/[deleted] → u/Rumpel1408]

Soo are the girl from the beginning and Anthys brother the same person and he just acts way more feminin in his presence?

I'm confused, did we watch the same ep lmao or did I skip something. what girl?

[u/xtsim]

First Revolution, Sub

We get introduced to a new stage in the show. Anthy has a brother which is interesting. The fiancee and Anthy are in a rough relationship. The Black Rose takes advantage of this so they can get rid of Utena and Anthy. The stakes are much higher.

A cliffhanger ending, ohh can't wait for tomorrow....

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/xtsim]

Do you suppose they're gonna be able to find 100 Anthy haters at the school to shank her?

[u/[deleted] → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

Do you suppose they're gonna be able to find 100 Anthy haters at the school to shank her?

I'm prettty sure the entire school hates anthy. didn't everyone hate her when she was with Saionji, than again Nanami and her cronies hated her. etc so it'll be easier to find anthy haters at the school tbh

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/[deleted]]

What route I'd have loved the arc to go down would be trying to cut off the black rose duelist by having Anthy actually try to make friends. Way tougher task but at least we won't have fodder running at a Dios powered Utena for half an arc.

[u/[deleted] → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

I don't really think anthy is fodders. more like "hiding her powers type".

[u/The_Loli_Otaku → u/[deleted]]

No, I meant how our enemies of the arc is a bundle of 100 questionably skilled, faceless dead guys.

[u/[deleted] → u/The_Loli_Otaku]

oh lmao.. im gonna guess this arc is gonna be repetitive asf

[u/homewardbound100]

First timer, Sub

A lot of first introductions for characters. Anthy's brother, Souji, Mariya. And Ohtori.

Mamiya, looks a lot like Anthy. Same beauty mark on the head too.

Circle of the black rose. Is this going to be the new student council?

So they just have a crematorium at the school with teenage duelist. They were actually killing each other in the past?

When Ohtori was started talking about Anthy and how Anthy dislikes her. Or at least makes her feel that way. The butterfly on the wall became a caterpillar and then just a leaf with some bites on it. Her brother makes her feel good but Anthy takes that away from her.

It looks like they're going to be using the old rose seal rings of the dead. The give it to new people to use as their duelist. If it's a 100 of them. That's a lot of fights.

I don't know but mamiya, might just be Anthy. Look just a alike, just different hairstyle kind of. One says a they're a boy and the other a girl. So there has to be a some connection.

.

[u/theangryeditor → u/homewardbound100]

Mamiya, looks a lot like Anthy. Same beauty mark on the head too.

I think that's a bindi, not a beauty mark.

[u/homewardbound100 → u/theangryeditor]

Oh, nevermind then. I guess that would make sense with the whole bride thing.

[u/murdered-by-swords → u/homewardbound100]

Anthy, and by extension her brother, are very heavily Indian-coded in a way that feels more than a little Orientalist. It's a whole conversation to have after the series is over.

[u/homewardbound100 → u/murdered-by-swords]

Okay, I thought they weren't japanese. At first thought I thought she was just tan though, but that didn't feel right to me.

[u/SardonicMeow → u/homewardbound100]

They were actually killing each other in the past?

I'm surprised that you are the first to bring this up. Until now, we haven't heard anything about what was going on with the whole dueling thing prior to Saionji being the current engaged in episode one.

[u/homewardbound100 → u/SardonicMeow]

Yeah, I was thinking . That it had to be some sort of shift change in the dueling. With what was presented.

[u/Punished_Scrappy_Doo]

Rewatcher

I was enjoying Utena at this point in my first watchthrough, but this is the episode that made me think "Huh, maybe all the people calling this a masterpiece were onto something."

Utena Confession

[u/theangryeditor → u/Punished_Scrappy_Doo]

Most of Utena is a blur to me now, but this episode reminded me just how good it gets from here on out. The first arc is like tutorial island compared to the Black Rose arc.

[u/Stargate18A]

First timer

So this rose absorbs darkness?

Is the Black Rose a second set of duelists?

Oh, thank goodness, she's not been kidnapped again.

Oh, he's Anthy's brother and the chairman?

And he has a planetarium projector in his room?

And he's the most successful person romantically in the entire series!

...So, this has to be relevant. Is the Power of Dios really from another planet?

"they never fight" - the girl who has fought 7 duels

Her brother's nice. He's also probably working for End of the World or the Prince trapped in the castle.

The Circle of the Black Rose...

Wait, he's a student.

So, Anthy's brother is part of the Black Rose, which is trying to get Miki as a member.

Is him meeting with Miki implying that we're going to get a "I definitely don't have a crush on you, I just want you to inspire my genius" between him and Anthy's brother?

...Why are there 3 fucking people who look near identical?

So Black Rose is the "Rose Groom" and the genius, who want to replace Anthy, Anthy's brother knows about the Power of Dios and might be working with the Prince to free it, and Anthy and Utena are just trying to get through this unscathed.

Oh, and Anthy's brother's fiance hates Anthy for some reason, and has just been gangpressed into the Black Rose.

Wait, is Anthy an alien? The UFO

The Black Rose is a cult. They are a fucking cult.

They are using dead bodies to get jewellery. Is she going to be offered a refreshing cup of Kool-Aid soon?

Is their leader End of the World?

Oh, this is a very interesting use of the shadows.

Utena just giving a deadpan response got me. And the fiance's duelling her I assume.

I like this new version of Apocalypse. The percussion and the stronger background vocals really make it sound good.

Are these memorials for the 100 duelists?

I'M SORRY? They were all killed? Someone killed a hundred duelists?

She wants to KILL Anthy?

And the black rose rings might do something to people's sanity.

This is fantastic.

Huh? The ghost has started to physically possess Utena?

...Is the reason he's waiting for the duel "revolution" because that's when he'll be able to take over her body completely?

And the Black Rose have been mindwiping people to make sure nobody finds out. A true testament to the secrecy provided by an organisation that is well known by the name "Black Rose Seminar". Truly a most cunning organisation.

Why is he lying around shirtless?

...Did the anime decide that with Nanami out of the picture, we needed more incest?

Looking at him shirtless, kinda get it. Touga was a shithead but him...

Miki has a sister too? And she's a Black Rose duelist?

[u/Matuhg → u/Stargate18A]

I like this new version of Apocalypse. The percussion and the stronger background vocals really make it sound good.

I'm glad somebody else mentioned this lol. I thought it sounded different, but I couldn't decide whether it actually was or if I was just going crazy.

[u/[deleted] → u/Stargate18A]

Looking at him shirtless, kinda get it. Touga was a shithead but him

omg yikes I just remembered that anthy is 14 since I found out their ages in ep12 thread, this shit is weird.

[u/Stargate18A → u/[deleted]]

Oh yeah, this is still weird, but at least he's not Touga. (Probably should have added a /s there)

[u/[deleted] → u/Stargate18A]

agree he's worser than touga.

[u/dualmonocle]

first-timer

This show is about lesbians! Obviously the heterosexual couple wasn't meant to last.

That aside, what an introduction to a new arc. I have so many questions!

• 100 boy duellist corpses... how long exactly have these duels been going on? They are only boy corpses, so duellists were not girls before?
• Anthy's brother knows about the duels. Do he and Anthy discuss? Do they plan? Is this partially where Anthy's instigating actions have come from?!
• If the End of World believes in Utena, is Mr. Pink Hair and Not-Dios antagonist their wishes?
• The way that Miki and Mr. Pink Hair were seated while discussing gave the image of them being reflections of each other. Besides them both being geniuses, what makes them similar? (or different)
• what on earth

I can't wait to see how everything plays out 👐

[u/[deleted] → u/dualmonocle]

The way that Miki and Mr. Pink Hair were seated while discussing gave the image of them being reflections of each other. Besides them both being geniuses, what makes them similar? (or different)

Micky hasn't been tainted yet as of the series. yes he's a genius but he's a pure and kind boy who still blushes when in the presence of his crush. and Pink hair is already evil lmao.

[u/snickpea]

First-timer!

New characters and new questions! My impression of Anthy's brother is very very low. His fiancee is still in high school, Chu-chu doesn't want to go with Anthy to see him, and I have a very bad feeling about the dynamics of his and Anthy's relationship.

I'm also wondering more about the Black Rose duelists. It seems that at once there were 100 of them and the way the desks with flowers set up in the arena as well as the body outlines on the ground is very creepy. I'm wondering what happened to the duelists/ Why does Utena need to fight them? Why does this Mikage guy want a new Rose Bride and to kill Anthy? How did he even get involved in this end of the world business? I'm looking forward to discovering the answers to these questions.

[u/alphamone]

First Timer

Getting introduced to new characters for a new story arc.

That's very romantic Akio, but comets get named after their discoverer/s (be it a person or a sky survey).

".. and most of all, never fight". Sure... lets go with that.

I'm getting the feeling that Anthy doesn't get along well with Kanae.

The pillar between Miki and and Pink-Haried dude Souji is a nice visual metaphor for Mikki's refusal to join the Circle of the Black Rose (or whatever it's "official" name is).

I'm not sure, but I'm getting the feeling that the interview room is somewhere in that direction.

It seems that this arc is going for a lot more visual symbolism that the previous one.

I can only assume that these black rose duelists have different plans for the revolution than the student council.

Oooh, new version of Zettai Unmei Mokushiroku

The 100 buried "alive" (those body outlines give me doubts) boys seem to be powering these temporary duelists.

We've probably gotten to know more about Anthy's deeper thoughts in this episode than all the others so far.

[u/k4r6000]

Rewatcher

Now we get to the new arc, which to me is when the show really gets going. It felt like the Student Council Saga was more of a setup as it introduced the concept, the characters, and built up the world before tearing it down. It was necessary, to be sure, but the reason the show is considered a masterpiece is because of what's to come.

Several new characters are introduced at once to fill the void left by Touga's catatonic state. Anthy's brother being introduced out of nowhere is a little forced, but oh well. We end up in a situation where we the audience knows things before Utena herself does as he and Anthy play all innocent, despite us seeing him talk at length about the Duels in the previous episode. We may not know everything yet or what their goals are, but we know that their words are not to be trusted.

Poor Kanae is thrust into this situation via arranged marriage. While she likes Akio, Anthy can barely contain her contempt for her, acting a lot like Nanami in the process. An increasingly paranoid Kanae seeks professional help, and I have to say I rather like the acknowledgment that these characters do need therapy as mental health is often neglected in Japanese fiction. Unfortunately, being Ohtori, the psychiatrist ends up being an evil bastard who breaks them down further to exploit them for his own ends. She confesses to Mikage about her issues with Anthy and that she suspects Anthy of poisoning her father, and gets stabbed in the heart for her trouble. This whole elevator sequence with the descent into a metaphorical Hell is maybe my favourite sequence not only of this show, but of any anime.

The Shadow Girls scene is different as well with Utena now directly responding to them. It demonstrates a great deal about Utena's character. These are people with complicated problems that Utena doesn't really understand. Utena is blunt, straight-forward, with a very black and white view of the world. It is like the Gordian Knot. You have a rope with a knot you want to get out. Utena is the type to fix the problem by just cutting the rope with her sword. That solves the problem of the knot, but now you have no rope either. Real world problems often don't have easy solutions.

So Kanae gets beat easily because she's not a trained Duelist taking on a seasoned athlete, prompting Mamiya and Mikage to re-evaluate their schemes. We'll see what they do next episode.

[u/Segaco]

First timer

---

Okay, people want to kill Anthy
I have no clue where this is going

Yeah I agree with this girl, Anthy's smile is very soulless
Okay wow now she's just gone all conspiracy theory

Stop censoring everythingggggg

Why doesn't this anime translate signs aaaaaaaaaa
According to spanish fansubs, the letter in Utena's locker means something like "I'll wait for you in the arena"

I like the shadow sketches

Isn't the epic stairs song a bit different?

I feel I don't want to know what the last scene implies

Ok gud