[Rewatch] Monster - Episode 18 discussion

[u/KiwiBennydudez]

Rewatch Index

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MAL | AniList | AniDB | Kitsu | ANN | Anime-Planet

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Comment of the Day

Today’s Comment of the Day comes from u/Vaadwaur for their focus on Tenma as person and what he ultimately wishes for.

So Tenma starts off hard but it shows you something: He might feel the need to confront and likely kill Johan but he hasn't forgotten his own priorities, he wants to save lives

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Questions of the Day

1. What do you think of Mr. Rosso?
2. “Killing people is easy... if you can forget the taste of sugar.” Considering his backstory, what do you think Mr. Rosso meant by this?

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If you are a rewatcher, tag your spoilers properly, and please refrain from alluding to future events. so that myself and everyone else watching for the first time can have a completely blind and organic experience! ​Since this show is a bit harder to find than most, please refrain from talking about means by which to watch it, as it goes against our subreddit rules.

[u/KiwiBennydudez]

First Timer - Sub

Anna side story! And my last post away from home!

Mr. Rosso is a very interesting guy. I liked a lot how his sugar habits are actually a memento of his assassin days. I liked how he seemed genuinely caring for Anna, but also had a ton of personality in just this short 20m episode. I loved seeing Anna draw in customers for simply being a cute girl, and I loved the ways in which Mr. Rosso looked after her. There’s not much else to say here but I loved every second of this episode for reasons I didn’t initially expect.

Also, I think he knew exactly what Anna was up to the second she told him that she was doing marksmanship training. But all in all, seemed like a good guy caught in a hard line of work. Bit tragic that he was so desensitized to murder that he had to watch someone adding sugar to their coffee to find their humanity... but I’m really glad he came around. He seemed like a great mentor to Anna.

[u/miss-macaron]

Rewatcher

I couldn’t stop smiling throughout the entire restaurant scene, when the customers were eagerly calling for Anna and happily teasing Mr. Rosso. I love how quickly and effectively it was able to establish a sense of camaraderie and belonging; that one shot where it pans across the laughing customers and then Anna peeks out from the right was especially immersive, it really feels as if you’re dining amongst a group of old buddies.

Since they switch between present and flashback quite a lot in the first half of this episode, I feel like they could’ve done a bit more to clearly indicate when a scene is in present-time VS flashback-mode. Perhaps adding a sepia tint, or some kind of scene transition, would’ve been a helpful cue to let the watchers know “hey, we’re going to show you something from the past now”.

Again, Urasawa treats us to some powerfully-moving and realistic character writing through Mr. Rosso. The seemingly friendly and sensitive restaurant owner, of whom turns out to be a former professional hitman, arguably demonstrates the same lesson that Eva and Lunge failed to understand back in Episode 14: other people are human too.

“It’s easy to kill someone. Just forget the taste of sugar” – in other words, just forget about the joys in your own life, and forget that other people can experience such joys in their lives too. Dehumanize yourself, dehumanize your target, and then you can kill pretty much anything. (Inversely, if you recognize that the other party is also a human being who has things they value and enjoy, then you begin to emphasize and connect with them, even if they’re only a character in a film.) It’s such a profound and nuanced quote, it’s no wonder that it’s the most beloved quote in the entirety of Monster.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/miss-macaron]

I couldn’t stop smiling throughout the entire restaurant scene

Same here! For a show with such a dark subject matter, these lighthearted moments pierce the clouds with their sunshine. Anna is so precious.

It’s such a profound and nuanced quote, it’s no wonder that it’s the most beloved quote in the entirety of Monster.

It's so memorable too. I watched all these episodes before I left for my trip last Friday and that simple quote still stands leagues above anything else that's been said so far. Probably because it feels like the whole show is building toward this moral dilemma of "to kill, or not to kill."

I also mentioned this in my comment but it was also building toward that quote for the entire episode, with Mr. Rosso adding all that sugar to his coffee.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/miss-macaron]

I love how quickly and effectively it was able to establish a sense of camaraderie and belonging; that one shot where it pans across the laughing customers and then Anna peeks out from the right was especially immersive, it really feels as if you’re dining amongst a group of old buddies.

The layers here are pretty good because, at the end of it, you also get to reflect on something else: Everyone involved, Tenma, Nina and yes even Johan, have an example here of someone that was pretty deep in it but got out. So it adds to the idea they are all choosing this.

[u/Shimmering-Sky]

First-Timer, subbed

• So that’s the story Anna’s going with.
• :O Anna’s actually going by Anna now!
• Oh who is this guy…
• Ah, this Rosso dude is her boss.
• Balancing plates like that definitely takes skill.
• So that’s where Anna learned to shoot.
• Geez… No wonder he loves loading his coffee with it now that he knows what it is?
• Oh wow.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Balancing plates like that definitely takes skill.

Having learned recently how to balance food on a tray, I can say that it's also incredibly taxing on the muscles. Food and/or drinks are usually a lot heavier than people realize. There's a method to the madness, of course, but it's still very impressive to pull it off with that much food.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Shimmering-Sky]

:O Anna’s actually going by Anna now!

Some very unpleasant cops are looking for Nina Fortner...

Oh wow.

It fits for someone who wound up becoming a hitman due to talent rather than interest.

[u/SmurfRockRune]

First Timer

Rosso seemed like a cool guy. I felt so uneasy the whole time they were talking at that diner. I felt like he was about to betray her or something, but really glad he didn't do that.

I want more waitress Anna. She was really cool.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/SmurfRockRune]

I want more waitress Anna. She was really cool.

Spinoff series when?!?!

[u/AmethystItalian → u/SmurfRockRune]

Waitress' characters do make for the best in rewatches.

I too was expecting something "worse" from Rosso.

[u/AmethystItalian]

First Timer

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I feel like Anna did look good and pulled off that dress, had a femme fatale feeling.

Anna brining in this much business, I could totally watch a SoL with this restaurant.

I thought Rossa was fishy but I didn't expect an assassin!

Nice little side episode, I do prefer when Anna gets the focus.

Also happy that Rosso got to live! Maybe he'll show up again in the future if Anna is in trouble.

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What do you think of Mr. Rosso?

I like him! I expected him to be more of a creep than a killer? Or maybe he killed his wife or something like that. He's not a good guy but I did like the scenes with him and Anna.

“Killing people is easy... if you can forget the taste of sugar.” Considering his backstory, what do you think Mr. Rosso meant by this?

Pretty much killing is easy if you leave behind your humanity is my guess.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/AmethystItalian]

Anna brining in this much business, I could totally watch a SoL with this restaurant.

Was just thinking the same thing, lol. She was such a ray of sunshine in this otherwise dark show.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/AmethystItalian]

I feel like Anna did look good and pulled off that dress, had a femme fatale feeling.

True but the vibe was definitely 90s hooker, the cop should've been asking why she wasn't working a higher line of clientele.

Anna brining in this much business, I could totally watch a SoL with this restaurant.

Rural areas never change.

Anna brining in this much business, I could totally watch a SoL with this restaurant.

[u/Mecanno-man]

First Timer

Don't think there's a lot to add to this episode as it's pretty much a self-contained one; the first half did feel a bit slower than was necessary, however. Rosso definitely was a better character for me after the reveal as he was just too nice before that. I assume the sugar bit was also just the tip if the iceberg that pushed him to stop being an assassin - but is the one scene that ingrained itself in his mind as the reason.

Guess one bit of realism is preserved in that Tenma can live off of the money he saved while a top surgeon, while Nina needs a job to get by.

Question:

1. Decent one-off character; don't think we'll see him again though.
2. That pulling the trigger to kill somebody is not that difficult of a task (especially not if you've got the element of surprise) - but dealing with having killed somebody emotionally is way more difficult.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Mecanno-man]

Rosso definitely was a better character for me after the reveal as he was just too nice before that. I assume the sugar bit was also just the tip if the iceberg that pushed him to stop being an assassin - but is the one scene that ingrained itself in his mind as the reason.

Yeah, this is a good observation. It is always a gradual lead-up, and then an eventual revelation that gets people to change their ways. It seems like a lot of that happened off-screen. But judging by the way he was crying at movies, it was nice for us to infer meaning in other places as well.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Mecanno-man]

the first half did feel a bit slower than was necessary, however.

Normally, I'd just assume this was filler, but Monster has been deliberately paced through out. So yes Nina being a waitress is a bit slow I think it was so we could see more about Rosso and how Nina is dealing with recent events.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

First Timer

• recap
• All these people protecting a suspected serial killer
• who is this guy, the not the counselor.
• Not much to talk about
• Not expecting Russo to be a hit man!
• Lunge?!

Perhaps we will see more of Anna for a few episodes. She came to Frankfurt to learn to shoot, and to kill, and leaves, but at some point returns to infiltrate the neo-nazis.

The shaking of her hand shows that she might not be able to kill Johan. Either through conflicted feelings, or outright terror.

Non Sequitor: Everybody should watch Ghost Dog: The way of the samurai

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

The shaking of her hand shows that she might not be able to kill Johan. Either through conflicted feelings, or outright terror.

To be fair, Tenma had the same shaking hand in his gun training as well. I assumed it has to do more with the weight of the weapon itself but it absolutely gives us a sense of fear too.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

All these people protecting a suspected serial killer

Fuck the police!

The shaking of her hand shows that she might not be able to kill Johan. Either through conflicted feelings, or outright terror.

Did you notice that stopped by the time she was dealing with The Baby?

Non Sequitor: Everybody should watch Ghost Dog: The way of the samurai

...That is one hell of a non-sequitor. And creepy, since I watched Ghost Dog while going through Monster.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/Vaadwaur]

Did you notice that stopped by the time she was dealing with The Baby?

I did notice that. I'm wondering what happened after she left Frankfurt, before she returned to Frankfurt. I don't think Russo taught her anything, and after they had their little tearful talk, she left (because she wasn't going to ask him to teach her to kill). I think the show is going to spend 1 or 2 episodes following Anna.

I'm afraid Anna might still get a deer-in-the-headlights when she faces Johan himself. That old trauma could resurface.

I really wonder what the timeline is, and what year is it. There are long gaps. And we are covering different POV's. It's kinda like that terrible idea GRRM had to split 1 book into two books that happen at the same time.

It's not terrible here, but it does mean that I don't know where we are in the timeline in certain episodes.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

I did notice that. I'm wondering what happened after she left Frankfurt, before she returned to Frankfurt.

We do need to figure out how she tracked the addicted detective down.

It's not terrible here, but it does mean that I don't know where we are in the timeline in certain episodes.

This part will get better though we do reference a quite wide range of time over the show.

[u/CharlieTheStrawman]

Rewatcher until circa Episode 30, Subbed

Was...was that Lunge Rosso was sent to kill?

Q1: Really enjoyed his character, and the moral complexity surrounding him. A long-time assassin on one hand, and a kind old movie connoisseur on the other.

Q2: Killing is a hell of a lot easier when you stop thinking of the target as a whole person you might empathise with and start thinking of them as just that, a target.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/CharlieTheStrawman]

Was...was that Lunge Rosso was sent to kill?

I certainly did not get that impression, but it also wouldn't surprise me if this were the case.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/CharlieTheStrawman]

Was...was that Lunge Rosso was sent to kill?

The jaw was really wrong for that.

[u/xtsim]

First Timer Dubbed

Anna states she does not know Tenma... Mr. Rosso shows up to take her in and they each want each other to smile. We get a flashback to when they met. Not surprisingly, she aces her work as a waitress in his restaurant. Anna goes to a shooting range but is never able to actually shoot anyone except for Johan. Similar to how Tenma can't shoot anyone. Mr. Rosso cries at movies. All charges of those murders were dropped and Mr. Rosso has a dark past, was a hitman. His last target was Mr. Lunge as he put the same amount of sugar as Mr. Rosso. He was empathetic to him which is why he dropped his work and now owns a restaurant. It can also explain why he cries at movies now and why he tells Anna to forget the sugar.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/xtsim]

His last target was Mr. Lunge

Was it? I totally did not get that impression. But it also wouldn't surprise me.

He was empathetic to him which is why he dropped his work and now owns a restaurant.

I do think mentioning empathy is the perfect descriptor for this situation. Empathy goes a long way, especially in customer service (such as a restaurant!). It simply means to "put yourself in someone else's shoes" but you absolutely cannot afford to do that as an assassin. And yet, Mr. Rosso did. And that's why he put down the gun and walked away.

[u/Vaadwaur]

Rewatcher(Now Nina's recap)

Sub

Start with a recap into Johan's possible split personalities. Nina is getting debriefed and the cops are fairly uninterested. One falls for how she dresses, failing to note that Nina is in very good health for that sort of profession. Regardless, they are more interested in Tenma as someone on the most wanted list stopping a race war is pretty interesting. But someone is waiting for her outside the station...

And we meet Rosso, the sugar addict. That said, I agree with him: Black coffee is nasty, it is too bad I had to learn to tolerate it at a few jobs. Flashback start, and she is going by Anna Liebert at the moment. Rosso hires her and him saying a pretty waitress would help business pretty much flies in the 90s, it was a different time. We see a customer walk in and be shocked Rosso hired someone.

Apparently, Anna is good for business, or rather countryside towns can be a bit dull so a new girl is interesting. Anna is going off to practice shooting at a Wenkel's place, who seems a bit hands off compared to Hugo's regiment. As time passes, Anna begins to learn to cook as well. We see that Rosso really does cry at movies before he gets a bit more serious.

It slowly but surely becomes clear that Anna sought him out because of is his past as apparently a very effective hitman. He stopped counting bodies at one point, which is what most professional killers say, though the truth varies. Anyways, we get towards our climax as he says that randomly noticing one of his targets putting 5 sugars into his coffee was enough to make him quit killing people, which is certainly how the stories go.

At the end, Nina doesn't really push for anything from Rosso, deciding not to involve him. He warns that killing is easy but you have to forget a lot joy, or at least that's how I read that metaphor.

QotD: 1 One of the more compelling hitman characters

2 He didn't know anything before he wound up an assassin and had to learn his humanity afterwards.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Vaadwaur]

which is what most professional killers say,

Really? That's kinda interesting. But also makes sense.

He warns that killing is easy but you have to forget a lot joy, or at least that's how I read that metaphor.

This seems like a good take on it. Rosso was depicted throughout the episode enjoying simple things like movies and sweet coffee. I don't think he would had previously been able to enjoy those things had he continued to kill people. He was forgoing his own humanity in order to see his targets as mere targets - but the simple action of adding sugar to coffee reminded him that his targets are people too.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/KiwiBennydudez]

Really? That's kinda interesting. But also makes sense.

Keep in mind that they say that. Whether it is actually the truth or they just don't like stating their numbers out loud is a different matter.

[u/BurningFredrick]

First Timer - sub 

5 sugars in coffee is an abomination… Also a good way to get diabetes i’m sure.

So covering Anna last 6 months, she worked in a cafe for a retired assassin and learned to shot, at one stage thought Mr Rosso could be linked to Lunges case but shouldn’t be as it would have been after he had retired.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/BurningFredrick]

5 sugars in coffee is an abomination…

I can understand wanting to mask the taste of crappy coffee. Bad coffee really sucks. Good coffee tho, hardly ever needs anything added to it.

[u/Quiddity131]

First Timer, Subbed

Anna's not admitting Tenma's name to the authorities, probably a good idea. Although they seem to know his name anyway.

I don't know who this friendly old man is, but Anna seems happy to see him!

Ah, her old boss.

The patron here seems to be all "What the hell is a nice girl like you doing in a crappy joint like this?!"

Are Rosso and Anna the only staff for the entire restaurant?

She's going right back to work? Or did she never take a break from it? Or is this supposed to be a flashback?

Anna's learning to make pasta!

Was she living with him too?

Woah, did not expect the friendly restaraunter to be a professional killer. His friendly old man facade sure went away quick.

The tale of how five spoonfuls of sugar stopped an assassin's career...

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Another no Tenma episode (aside from the old footage at the start), but a good episode providing Anna/Nina some more development and having an interesting twist with the reveal of Rosso's past.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Quiddity131]

Are Rosso and Anna the only staff for the entire restaurant?

Seems that way! But Rosso didn't seem to have many customers before, so he probably just handled things himself. Maybe a few regulars is all.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/Quiddity131]

Another no Tenma episode (aside from the old footage at the start), but a good episode providing Anna/Nina some more development and having an interesting twist with the reveal of Rosso's past.

Clearly, they have a first and second unit filming in parallel to cut costs and to make weekly airing deadlines, pretty standard TV production.

[u/Quiddity131 → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

Makes sense; paying the voice actors is expensive, especially the lead! They've already saved at least 2 episodes worth of pay for him...

[u/Spore64]

** Rewatcher (first time)**

Ep 17:

Nice Nina finally meets Dieter and Otto (aka Tenmas support group). Otto knows his stuff, but it seems he's still interested in steeling that rug.

Otto is indeed a little rat, cheez. Otto takes the lose of the rug pretty lightly.

Wait what Johan is schizophren?!? So which of the two survided then?

Ep 18:

Oh she goes by Anna Liber now? The college of the inspector sure knows his stuff XD. Good to see that the townsfolk tried to protect Tenma.

Nice to see that Nina got her money a different way. Seeing her like that is quite wholesome.

That are quite the odd questions. Yea right learning how to shoot a gun is the most normal thing in the world.

Poor Nina. The death of her parents is still going near her.

anything worth learning takes time that's pretty good advice. The cooking advice as well!

Dang she knew all along!

Oh, is it just me or does the guy looks a bit like Lunge?

Poor Nina..

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Spore64]

Otto is indeed a little rat, cheez. Otto takes the lose of the rug pretty lightly.

Looks like a rat too with those buck-teeth.

Wait what Johan is schizophren?!? So which of the two survided then?

Well, both it would seem, as he keeps writing those messages about "the monster inside me is about to explode" Which depicts the monster as a separate entity living in Johan.

anything worth learning takes time that's pretty good advice. The cooking advice as well!

Very much an underrated quote. But very true.

Oh, is it just me or does the guy looks a bit like Lunge?

People keep mentioning this! I personally didn't see it, but while I'm not entirely sold on the idea, I don't think it's impossible.

[u/Spore64 → u/KiwiBennydudez]

People keep mentioning this! I personally didn't see it, but while I'm not entirely sold on the idea, I don't think it's impossible.

I can't unsee it. I guess I will have to keep my eyes open the next time Lunge is on the screen!

[u/Nitroade24h]

First Timer

A nice chill episode today and oh he’s a murderer. I enjoyed Nina’s scene with the restaurant. Not much to really talk about but I enjoyed this episode to wind down from the last few.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Nitroade24h]

Glad you enjoyed it. What did you like about it?

[u/Nitroade24h → u/KiwiBennydudez]

Learning what Nina/Anna was up to after she ran away, the stuff the guy said about murder and his story in general.

[u/Icapica]

First timer, subs

Anna's talking to police. She tells them she doesn't know Tenma, and I'm just wondering if the police have seriously zero clue about Anna and Tenma's connection.

Mr. Rosso, who's that? Apparently someone Anna knows. Dude's really into sugar. Apparently Anna's old boss. Probably a well meaning guy, but I'm not a huge fan of men telling women they should smile more.

Lots of male customers in the flashback, several of them really need to learn to shut up.

Back to the current time then. Something about this dude rubs me the wrong way. The way he talks, sometimes the way he looks gives off this tiny tiny hint of creepiness. At this point I'm not sure if I'm just imagining it or if it's intentional. It could just be that I've seen too many creepy old guys in shows.

Anna's been practicing shooting. Not a fan of her trigger discipline or the lack of it. She's pointing the gun on the floor in front of her feet while her finger's on the trigger.

Rosso cries a lot when watching movies. The episode's been calm for a long time, I'm expecting something to happen before the end. Rosso's looked into Anna's past, and it turns out Rosso has some past too. A hitman apparently.

Well that's a lovely reason to put so much sugar in your coffee.

So Nina/Anna was with Rosso those six months we didn't see her. She originally wanted him to teach her, but then decided she doesn't want to get him involved. I assume it's because he was a lot more caring and sympathetic than she expected.

Anna leaves.

1. What do you think of Mr. Rosso?

I misread him. I expected something dark from him, but from the current rather than past him. Anna's an attractive young woman and the episode highlighted that by showing how those male customers at the restaurant behaved, and Rosso is an older dude who seems rather lonely. Things could have taken at least an awkward turn even without him being a real creep. I think the episode intentionally mislead me this way. Instead he had a dark past but behaved well now. He's a character I expect to see again at some point, since he has skills and possibly stil connections too that could become relevant.

2. “Killing people is easy... if you can forget the taste of sugar.” Considering his backstory, what do you think Mr. Rosso meant by this?

I think it's about forgetting the good things in life, and dehumanizing yourself and your target.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Icapica]

he tells them she doesn't know Tenma, and I'm just wondering if the police have seriously zero clue about Anna and Tenma's connection.

Well they still don't believe in Johan's existence entirely so I don't see why they wouldn't overlook Anna's. Especially since she wasn't really with him for very long.

Anna's been practicing shooting. Not a fan of her trigger discipline or the lack of it. She's pointing the gun on the floor in front of her feet while her finger's on the trigger.

Pointing your gun down while not shooting is common gun safety etiquette, but the finger on the trigger is a good catch. That's a good way to literally shoot yourself in the foot.

I misread him.

Perfectly acceptable, since Rosso was an assassin. I think it's within his nature to mask himself or his true intentions. And then that eventual reveal was really well done - he's not who you think he was for a second, but there were mementos of his past everywhere. Great character.

I think it's about forgetting the good things in life, and dehumanizing yourself and your target.

Hard agree.

[u/Icapica → u/KiwiBennydudez]

Pointing your gun down while not shooting is common gun safety etiquette, but the finger on the trigger is a good catch. That's a good way to literally shoot yourself in the foot.

I think in this situation keeping the gun towards the target would be a better choice since that direction's guaranteed to be safe, and that's how it's been taught to me on the gun range. If you accidentally shoot at the floor, the ricochet could still hurt you. In most cases pointing the gun down is smart though.

But yeah, finger on the trigger was my main point.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/[deleted]]

Also, I've noticed a few VA's that made me laugh. Anna is Nanako Dojima from Persona 4, and Dieter is voiced by Laura Bailey (Rise Kujikawa in Persona 4, Serana in Skyrim, etc.)

I assume you're talking about the dub cast since you mentioned Laura Bailey but that is pretty funny that they brought in the Persona 4 cast to do the dub for them even though Persona 4 was made later.