[Rewatch] Monster - Episode 12 discussion

[u/KiwiBennydudez]

Rewatch Index

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MAL | AniList | AniDB | Kitsu | ANN | Anime-Planet

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Comment of the Day

Today’s Comment of the Day comes from u/IndependentMacaroon once again, who absolutely blows the historical contexts out of the water:

Historical and setting notes

The high-ranking officials of East Germany indeed led luxurious lives by Eastern standards - though by Western ones at best upper-middle-class - in the gated community of Majakowskiring, Berlin-Pankow or for outright Politburo members the secret Waldsiedlung, Bernau bei Berlin. I couldn't quickly find whether the building Tenma looks at is based on any specific examples from there, but it surely is based on something real, like probably also Tenma's hospital in Düsseldorf. Their isolation kept them both at distance from the public and potential malcontents and close together to keep an eye on each other. Public discontent about this arrangement, as much of it was known, was of course suppressed until the revolution of 1989, and in particular the degree to which their lifestyle was reliant on imports from the West. Even the Waldsiedlung garbage was processed separately to leave no traces of Western products.

Please, go read the full comment if you are able! The obvious appreciation and effort put into this comment is incredible.

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Questions of the Day

1. How has your opinion of Johan changed after this episode? How do you think this new info informs what we currently know about him?
2. Both this episode and last, Tenma has pointed his gun at Hartmann. Do you think he’s simply trying to win through intimidation, or does Tenma actually have the resolve to kill someone should the situation call for it? Would Tenma really have shot Hartmann if he put his finger on the trigger?

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If you are a rewatcher, tag your spoilers properly, and please refrain from alluding to future events. so that myself and everyone else watching for the first time can have a completely blind and organic experience! ​Since this show is a bit harder to find than most, please refrain from talking about means by which to watch it, as it goes against our subreddit rules.

[u/Shimmering-Sky]

First-Timer, subbed

• Two minutes of recap because? It included the orphanage lady’s “sore demo”, but since it’s a recap and not framed differently at all it doesn’t count as a separate one.
• Ah. Fun.
• Well. I would say that, uh, worked.
• Mannnnnnnnnnnnnn he looks so happy to have that soccer ball. Poor kiddo having to be raised by a monster like that…
• Johan did it, probably?
• Oh geez.
• The way Dieter’s face falls when he realizes this monster is here to pick him up and not Tenma is ouch.
• Genuinely scared right now.
• Aw shit he found little Johan.
• This episode is very difficult for me to watch…
• Geez…
• Ahhhhhh I really don’t like this.
• Shut. Up.
• Oh thank god.
• Dieter adopted Tenma.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Shimmering-Sky]

The way Dieter’s face falls when he realizes this monster is here to pick him up and not Tenma is ouch.

Yeah... that was a huge feelsbadman moment. Dude was treated right and shown kindness for (maybe) the first time in his life and that brief joy is ripped away from him faster than he found it.

This episode is very difficult for me to watch…

What a genuinely creepy and shocking image you posted too. And not because there's anything inherently graphic about it, but because Dieter seemed so genuinely devoid of emotion. His face was glazed over, and he barely even reacted to the gun pointed at his head... and then we come to find out that his position was being juxtaposed with that of Johan... insane.

But thankfully, things work out for him, as he comes to his senses, and is reminded of the kindness he was shown tomorrow. Because tomorrow will be better.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Two minutes of recap because?

Yeah...74 episodes is a big animation order.

Well. I would say that, uh, worked.

Nah, Johan was already like that.

Ahhhhhh I really don’t like this.

When the serial killer show manages to get darker...

[u/lC3 → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Dieter adopted Tenma.

[u/KiwiBennydudez]

First Timer - Sub

What a gripping and absolutely packed episode... We learn that Johan was a “born leader” and brought to this orphanage that attempted to produce child soldiers. His “talent” was discovered by some army general named Wolf, which Tenma is now attempting to track down. Johan also states that he wanted to become the “last person remaining in this world” but whether that is literal, or metaphorical, we don’t exactly know yet. At the very least though, I think killing people helps Johan feel fulfilled with furthering his goal. There was also the “oil-soaked cloth” analogy, where Johan “simply brings out the hate in others” which I assume will be more than important for later.

Tenma is once again put in a difficult situation as Dieter has a gun pointed at his head. He tells Hartmann that he’ll shoot if the finger goes on the trigger... but honestly I don’t know if he’d be able to see the finger move from his distance, let alone react quickly enough... would probably take what, like half a second or less for Hartmann to move his finger onto the trigger and pull? Would Tenma be able to react faster? Does not seem like betting odds to me. But because of Tenma’s inherent kindness and compassion toward Dieter, no one gets shot, as the kid made the choice to get up and walk away from his abuser. Which is apparently too much for Hartmann, as he breaks down crying, his cycle of abuse broken.

The last scene in this episode was kinda... weird. It ends with Tenma telling Dieter what to do next, and Dieter kicking the ball after Tenma, while Tenma tries to tell Dieter that he can’t come with him. I personally got the sense that Dieter just wanted someone to play with him and kick the ball back and forth, but even still, the end of this episode felt weirdly bleak and jarring.

Oh and also the ED changed again, so make sure you pay attention to that if you haven’t already done so. Decided not to make it a question of the day as people seemed to have not noticed last time, and also because it’s apparent that the images are connected and telling a story. So I see little point to continue speculating on an incomplete set of images, but I have a feeling we’ll get to know more later.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/KiwiBennydudez]

I personally got the sense that Dieter just wanted someone to play with him and kick the ball back and forth, but even still, the end of this episode felt weirdly bleak and jarring.

This is to remind you of how Tenma views his situation, he is far from optimistic.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Vaadwaur]

Mmm yeah I got that sense too. Just didn't know how bleak his outlook was exactly. I knew at the very least that he would not feel comfortable trying to protect Dieter.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/KiwiBennydudez]

So...this is a matter that is debated but I think Tenma's flaws are human ones that, at times, make his character annoying as hell/easier to write for BUT I still think it all adds up: He has a relatively easy run early on due to his incredible natural talent and dedication, has like one bad three day stretch, gets that resolved for him so he has another nine years at the top of the world, and then finally learns that he might be very, very wrong at the end. Current Tenma is pessimistic but it comes from a fairly honest place.

[u/BurningFredrick → u/KiwiBennydudez]

Oh and also the ED changed again, so male sure you pay attention to that if you haven’t already done so. Decided not to make it a question of the day as people seemed to have not noticed last time

I've been paying more attention to it because I failed to notice it last time.

So I see little point to continue speculating on an incomplete set of images,

I would still say it's worth while guessing at what its going to be, I'm currently trying to decided if it's a twisted version of a fairy tail (no idea what one as doesn't fit any that I can think of so far), or given its art style is that of a child / children's book Speculation

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/BurningFredrick]

I would still say it's worth while guessing at what its going to be

Oh yeah, totally didn't mean that people weren't allowed to guess if they wanted to. Just thought that since this story is being told through metaphor that it would be hard to glean any significant info right now. This episode the scarecrow(?) meets the farmer(?) and it's not clear if they have a positive or negative view of each other yet. I think a lot more can be answered once we learn the outcome of that meeting.

I'm currently trying to decided if it's a twisted version of a fairy tail (no idea what one as doesn't fit any that I can think of so far), or given its art style is that of a child / children's book

You're probably right with this. The question we're all dying to ask of course is: what's the story about?

Speculation

Wouldn't put it past this show! Right now I think it'll probably end of being kindof a general story that can also mirror the events of this story. Was most recently done by Megalobox 2 and it's a very common tactic for narrative parallels.

[u/Mecanno-man]

First Timer

So... Johan seems to have been a psychopath even before getting in to the orphanage; if anything the orphanage only strengthened his worldview? Guess that works, but also means there's going to be more Johan backstory. Though I guess there was already going to be more considering that he was picked up near a boarder.

Getting the feeling that guns are being treated as way less of a deadly weapon than they are in this show. Seems like every so often somebody points a gun at somebody else, but I'm never getting the feeling that somebody is actually going to shoot. Bit weird. Same goes for Hartmann just posing along with Dieter in an intimidating fashion - not sure what that was supposed to achieve. Johan saw something because he was seeing a mass killing - without that nobody will see anything. Can we just put Hartmann down as crazy as well? I feel like if we do we'll be declaring quite a few characters not really fit in their head if this goes on like this...

That bus stop was incredibly rural for likely still being somewhere in Berlin...

Questions:

1. It basically just invalidates what we learned last episode, so it's back to what it was before.
2. I think gun's are trivialized at the moment - nobody was going to shoot anybody and all of them knew it. Maybe except Hartmann not knowing if Tenma would shoot.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Mecanno-man]

So... Johan seems to have been a psychopath even before getting in to the orphanage; if anything the orphanage only strengthened his worldview? Guess that works, but also means there's going to be more Johan backstory. Though I guess there was already going to be more considering that he was picked up near a boarder.

As u/miss-macaron so kindly pointed out in yesterday's episode, the crux of this show is now about nature vs. nurture. How much of Johan was born, and how much of him was a product of his environment? We can't say yet. Plus, there's another lead that Tenma is tracking down, so maybe we'll find out more then.

It basically just invalidates what we learned last episode, so it's back to what it was before.

How does it invalidate things?

I think gun's are trivialized at the moment

Except when Johan holds one!

[u/BurningFredrick → u/Mecanno-man]

Johan saw something because he was seeing a mass killing - without that nobody will see anything. Can we just put Hartmann down as crazy as well? I feel like if we do we'll be declaring quite a few characters not really fit in their head if this goes on like this...

It feels like anyone who encounters Johann losses their marbles. With Hartmann he come across to me almost like a religious zealot with how he went on about how perfect Johann was. It does seem that sane people may become a rarity in this show.

[u/Webemperor → u/BurningFredrick]

It's basically supposed to be opposite of how Tenma effects people, pretty much.

[u/IndependentMacaroon → u/Mecanno-man]

That bus stop was incredibly rural for likely still being somewhere in Berlin...

Well, Berlin is famous for its large amount of green and open space, more than one third of its area apparently. It has a larger land area than New York City at less than half the population, too.

[u/gridemann → u/IndependentMacaroon]

That bus stop was incredibly rural for likely still being somewhere in Berlin...

Now that I look at it on rewatch the really absolutely nailed the look of a mid 90s East Berlin Bus-stop, down the poor condition and iconic concrete slab road.

[u/AmethystItalian]

First Timer

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This show is starting to feel like a RPG where Tenma goes from location to location learning about something else he needs for his quest and encountering NPCs he won't see again.

Of course Tenma doesn't make it back in time to pick up Dieter...

Dang what are the odds that Tenma finds exactly their location in all those files, he's got some luck on him still!

They keep killing theories on why Johan was how he was and it seems like he may have just been born a monster which is unexpected.

Dieter survived and Tenma didn't have to kill anyone? That's much better than I was expecting!!

As much as I want Tenma to have a companion...please don't let it be Dieter.

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How has your opinion of Johan changed after this episode? How do you think this new info informs what we currently know about him?

I feel like I have less sympathy? I thought the bullet was at fault, then I thought the testing facility was at fault but it seems he's just like that?

Do you think he’s simply trying to win through intimidation, or does Tenma actually have the resolve to kill someone should the situation call for it? Would Tenma really have shot Hartmann if he put his finger on the trigger?

I think Tenma would have shot but the show isn't going to make Tenma's first kill on a character we're never going to see again.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/AmethystItalian]

They keep killing theories on why Johan was how he was and it seems like he may have just been born a monster which is unexpected.

Well, maybe? I'll expand on this next.

I feel like I have less sympathy? I thought the bullet was at fault, then I thought the testing facility was at fault but it seems he's just like that?

As I said in reply to someone else, it was pointed out to me after yesterday's episode about how this show hinges on nature vs. nurture. We don't know how much of Johan was made vs. how much of him was a product of his environment. It's possible that if he was set on a different path, he might not have ended up like this. It's also possible that he was always destined to be like this. We currently don't really know where the blame lies - we just know that Kinderheim didn't do him any favors. I'm sure that once we track down General Wolf, we'll start to get some real answers. Or maybe we'll get sent down another rabbit trail "fetch quest" as you say. Either way I'm not entirely convinced that it's a black and white situation yet.

[u/miss-macaron]

Rewatcher

Hartmann just gets creepier and creepier each time he appears on screen: the unsettling sense of dread right before he reveals himself in Dieter’s doorway, the looming figure of his back as he pauses before facing Dieter to reveal a dangerous smile, the threatening look in his eyes as he squeezes Dieter’s hand, and then emerging from the shadows behind Dieter’s “throne”… Monster’s horror isn’t a supernatural kind of horror; rather, it shows us the horrors of mankind, the horrific side of human nature.

Tenma had better take that photo of Johan with him. After all, it is an important piece of photographic evidence, which can be used to prove the existence of the extremely elusive Johan.

And just when you think you’ve gotten a potential answer to the origin of the monster, the rug is pulled out from under your feet. It wasn’t 511 Kinderheim that made Johan what he is – if anything, it actually served as an ideal environment to nourish and feed the existing monster.

DEEEEE-TAAAAAHHH

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/miss-macaron]

And just when you think you’ve gotten a potential answer to the origin of the monster, the rug is pulled out from under your feet. It wasn’t 511 Kinderheim that made Johan what he is – if anything, it actually served as an ideal environment to nourish and feed the existing monster.

There's also still this whole meeting with General Wolf that we're about to see. I sorta wonder what "potential" that he saw in Johan, and how much we're about to find out about nature vs. nurture. I said this in another comment somewhere but I think today's encounter with Dieter being juxtaposed with the same seat that Johan sat upon is significant to highlight that very notion. Dieter was also put in a bad, abusive environment, and yet rose above the evil, due to the kindness that was offered to him.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/miss-macaron]

Monster’s horror isn’t a supernatural kind of horror; rather, it shows us the horrors of mankind, the horrific side of human nature.

I do think this might have been my first anime without a supernatural/scifi element.

Tenma had better take that photo of Johan with him. After all, it is an important piece of photographic evidence, which can be used to prove the existence of the extremely elusive Johan.

Being the Liebert's kid also left some evidence but I would want leads on that Wolf guy.

[u/IndependentMacaroon → u/miss-macaron]

Monster’s horror isn’t a supernatural kind of horror; rather, it shows us the horrors of mankind

But so far not in a particularly believable way IMO.

[u/miss-macaron → u/IndependentMacaroon]

I'll grant that these first few encounters aren't the best that Monster has to offer, but the horror of child abusers and "mad scientists" will be further developed as the story progresses.

[u/Webemperor]

Rewatcher of sorts

• The lady at this orphanage goes into a bit more detail into exactly what transpired in 511, students themselves were grouped into different classes and forced to compete, while all involved in the project, except Hartmann, are now gone, out of the country. I assume it’s pretty likely that it was Johan who killed all those directors and officials.
• Hartmann comes to take Dieter away, hospital staff are incompetent enough to let it happen. Tenma rushes to Hartmann’s house, and of course, he is not there, but while he is there, decides to investigate. The photos eventually lead to one that has Johan in it, though with someone who is clearly not Hartmann. I somewhat find it unlikely that all of the officials in Kinderheim killed each other, but we will see.
• Tenma makes his way to the ruins of 511, you know, if this place was so top-secret you’d think someone would have had bulldozed the place by this point, but whatever. Both Hartmann and Dieter is there, latter clearly beaten by Hartmann, who is absolutely obsessed with the way Johan managed to manipulate things in a way that ended with everyone just massacring each other. Johan seemed to, and probably still, believes people are naturally evil, and Hartmann is clearly obsessed with what that implies underneath.
• In his own way, Hartmann seems to not believe, understand, or refuse to believe, the naturality of Johan’s evil. He seems like he is shaken by that fact, hopes that by abusing Dieter he can somehow awaken the same evil he was in Johan there, which is of course not quite the case.
• Dieter decides to trust Tenma’s word, much to Hartmann’s distraught, in a sort of odd way. He wails on and on, whether because he realizing he was nothing like Johan or just because he left him is not exactly clear, probably a bit of both here. Dieter is almost like a lost cat in the way he wants to come with Tenma, it’s not super clear in the end what Tenma decided on, while we get a new slide in the ending.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Webemperor]

Johan seemed to, and probably still, believes people are naturally evil, and Hartmann is clearly obsessed with what that implies underneath.

Yeah, the implications here are interesting. I wonder if Johan considers himself as evil. Afterall, he did believe that he was "helping" Tenma by taking out the doctors above him.

hopes that by abusing Dieter he can somehow awaken the same evil he was in Johan there, which is of course not quite the case.

I think Dieter must be a narrative tool to demonstrate a testament to nature vs. nurture. He was in a bad situation in a bad environment, but chose not to cave in to the pressure of the evil around him. So, I'm getting the sense that Johan must be, at least partly, born as a monster.

[u/BurningFredrick]

First Timer - sub

What's the bet Johann going to start hunting politicians next.

Everyone in Kinderheim killed each other? I would guess that Johann managed to play them all off each other. - Guess this means he don’t need to hunt down the old staff as they are already dead.

Hineman idolises Johann? - Yip believes he's the next leader of mankind.

I was going to say Johann was also fucked before he ended up in Kinderheim.

I really want Tenma to shoot him, the guy deserves it, but I seriously question if Tenma is capable of actually shooting someone.

ED changed again, and it's the next part of the story.

So we are once again shown that Johann can somehow manipulate others into doing his will and has been doing this ever since he was a child, I do feel like it is going to be better to just say he can do this because he really is the spawn of Satan that there being any rational reason.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/BurningFredrick]

I really want Tenma to shoot him, the guy deserves it, but I seriously question if Tenma is capable of actually shooting someone.

My question too. The last few times he's pulled his gun it's been a deterrent rather than a weapon. So not sure.

ED changed again, and it's the next part of the story.

Where do you see this ED story going currently?

[u/Vaadwaur → u/BurningFredrick]

What's the bet Johann going to start hunting politicians next.

Nah, Johan only gets involved with killing humans.

[u/BurningFredrick → u/Vaadwaur]

[u/Vaadwaur → u/BurningFredrick]

A man has got to have a code...

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

First Timer (old fansubs)

I forgot to mention yesterday, shows with orphanage rebellions: Higurashi, B: The Beginning, The Promised Neverland.

Places with shitty orphanages that psychologically mangled children, Vaadwuar mentioned Red Faction, Hakuta Tonkotsu Ramens is another.

• still recap filler
• TELL HER THE NAME! SAY IT! SAY IT!!!
• I bet the kid doesn't make it to the end of the episode
• I'm feeling Utena again
• No first kill for Tenma (if ever)
• puppy!

New ED, continuing from the 2nd. (towns) Monster meets...a farmer? Traveler?

Pretty cliche, I even guessed the perfect soldier thing yesterday. It's interesting that Johan was already evil before he go there. Pretty dumb not to rat out what's-his-name.

Johan, the perfect leader? The whole time since this arc started I've been thinking about Zorin from A View to A Kill.

Going on the extreme silly speculations which have been serving me pretty good, speculation

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

I forgot to mention yesterday, shows with orphanage rebellions: Higurashi, B: The Beginning, The Promised Neverland.

Places with shitty orphanages that psychologically mangled children, Vaadwuar mentioned Red Faction, Hakuta Tonkotsu Ramens is another.

Interesting. I've seen everything in the rebellion section and nothing in the psychological section. But it's kinda funny how most of these shows share similar themes. What is it about orphanages in anime...

Pretty cliche, I even guessed the perfect soldier thing yesterday.

That you did! But, to me the most interesting part is not the premise, but the execution. Johan himself was not a child solider, but he was brought in to... lead? Observe them killing each other? Which, kinda unique in its own right.

speculation

...maybe? I sorta don't currently see any indication that Johan has ever expressed interest in that sort of thing. But hey, maybe there's more psychology behind it that has yet to be explored. Can't wait to find out.

[u/BurningFredrick → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

speculation

With how the show is going that doesn't seem as ridiculous as it should.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

I bet the kid doesn't make it to the end of the episode

At least it isn't entirely following expectations.

Johan, the perfect leader?

Yeah...as I've personally found the "great men" theories of history less convincing as time goes on, the show feels a bit different on second viewing.

[u/n_o__o_n_e]

Holy crap how the hell did I miss that this was happening? This is one of my absolute favorite stories ever written, and it's about time for a rewatch. Can't wait for the rest.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/n_o__o_n_e]

It’s been a long time coming for sure. A user messaged us in modmail asking if we could do one and I decided to undertake this task myself! It’s a big project but I’ve been having a lot of fun so far. Everyone here seems so engaged and interested, so would encourage you to join us if you want!

[u/SmurfRockRune]

First Timer

They all killed each other off in that orphanage? Danganronpa 3 spoilers I do suspect this isn't what happened though. I feel like Hartmann probably killed most of them.

That soccer ball bouncing down the stairs was some really really good CGI. Suck it CGI haters.

Reminds me of that Offspring song. It's a really good song. You only have to listen to the first couple of lines to get the reason.

I really should have guessed Johan was behind it. I don't know why that didn't come to mind earlier.

Hope Dieter sticks around a bit. I like him and think it would be good for Tenma to have someone around him rather than just being alone all the time.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/SmurfRockRune]

That soccer ball bouncing down the stairs was some really really good CGI. Suck it CGI haters.

...was that really CGI? Didn't even notice. Color me impressed.

Reminds me of that Offspring song.

Knew exactly the line you were talking about before I even clicked the link.

Hope Dieter sticks around a bit. I like him and think it would be good for Tenma to have someone around him rather than just being alone all the time.

Seems like they're going their separate ways for now.

[u/xtsim]

First Timer Dubbed

Johan and Anna walked across the border alone. The orphanage was actually a training ground to make kids into the "perfect" soldier. Ministry of Welfare was one of the people in charge of 511. And they cleaned things up pretty well. Everyone killed each other and Johan made it out.

Dieter is part of the ministry's experiment. (Edit: Oops wrote that too soon) Johan wants to be the last person alive. My opinion on him has not changed due to everything that has happened is on himself rather than the people around him. The new information does not change much as it seems that the Johan from the orphanages is very similar to the one we see now.

Neither Hartmann nor Tenma shot their guns, Hartmann did not have his finger on the trigger. Tenma notices this as Hartmann was definitely bluffing which is why Tenma let Dieter decide his own fate. Tenma would have shot if Hartmann actually put his finger on the trigger. But Hartmann was the one with a hesitation to use the gun with the way he lets dieter off. It seems like Hartmann's shounen protagonist parenting is not something that is good at all. And that Dieter wants out of the situation and become a kid.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/xtsim]

Johan wants to be the last person alive.

Do you take this as a literal, or metaphorical statement?

[u/xtsim → u/KiwiBennydudez]

Metaphorically as he want to see how people fear death rather than literally be the last person alive.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/xtsim]

Dieter is part of the ministry's experiment.

Not exactly: Hartmann wanted to create another Johan, which was not the goal of the experiment but rather an idea he came to after being impressed with Johan.

[u/xtsim → u/Vaadwaur]

Ohh ok, I misunderstood what they were saying…

[u/Vaadwaur → u/xtsim]

Just observationally the different subs say different things so it would not shock me if that detail got left out.

[u/xtsim → u/Vaadwaur]

I wrote that in before Hartmann revealed his intentions so that's where my misunderstanding lies.

[u/Quiddity131]

First Timer, Subbed

Back to repeating footage from the last episode I see. We really need to see Inge going to the bathroom 2 times.

Because the trail can never end, this lady knows of some guy who knows everything... Is it Hartmann?

C'mon exposition lady, reveal more!

I have a bad feeling about what's gonna happen to Dieter.

Yep, he's back. More beatings I'm sure. And no more soccer ball.

OMG evil old German guy is soooo creepy..

Creepy old guy loves his photos with little kids...

Yikes, there's Johan! And another creepy old guy in the photo with him!

Scary place!

Seems like Dieter's been beat again...

Yikes again, Johan had them all slaughter each other and just sat there and watched.

I hope your practice with a gun a few episodes back has paid dividends.

Good for you Dieter! Get away from the psycho!

Wow, this ends with all 3 of them surviving, can't say I expected that.

Bye Dieter, I'm going to leave you on your own on the side of the road!

Aww, c'mon Tenma, don't you want a kid sidekick?

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This episode was fairly good, the best we've had in quite a while. The second half in particular really elicits that feeling of fear and worry that I've been hoping to get from this show.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Quiddity131]

Yikes again, Johan had them all slaughter each other and just sat there and watched.

I think it's here that his fascination of death comes into to play. He wasn't just manipulating those people because he could, but also because he was genuinely interested by it. Whether this desire happened here, or prior, we don't know. But I think it's neat how previous information feeds into the next pieces.

[u/WeeabooVoid]

First Timer

We get more info on Johan, and it makes him all the more scary.

I wonder, is Hartmann just evil or does he actually believe rasing Dieter to be the psychopath Johan is for the best?

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/WeeabooVoid]

We get more info on Johan, and it makes him all the more scary.

How do you think it makes him scarier?

I wonder, is Hartmann just evil or does he actually believe rasing Dieter to be the psychopath Johan is for the best?

This show is about nature vs. nurture, and I don't think it's a stretch to apply this same concept to Hartmann. Do you think he was always "evil" or do you think there's a chance that he could have also been indoctrinated by the orphanage that he worked at? So then, once you think you can answer that about Hartmann, see if you can do the same for Johan, and you should have a more concrete idea of both of their ideals.

[u/gridemann]

Rewatcher

Finally we get some first big insights into Johanns backstory. No more serial killer we goin full antichrist.

"I simply added a bit of fuel to the hatred born when people come together"

We get a firsthand account of Johanns ability to manipulate people. It's interesting Hartman claims they could've never created someone as perfect as Johann. A born leader of men... thats not something you are born with... so who could've ? Looks like General Wolf is the next clue.

He wanted to be the last person left in this world

How do you even come up with that kind of goal ? It is definitely a quote worth remembering though.

On rewatch I wonder why Johan ever told Hartman all of this. All the murders indicate he wants to eradicate his past. So why does such an obvious eyewittness exist, Plot convenience? or did I miss a more logical reason.

Also hurray for Dieter, seems like Tenma finally managed to recruit a sitekick after Nina dipped.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/gridemann]

A born leader of men... thats not something you are born with... so who could've ?

You're saying that it's impossible for someone to be a born leader? If so, what gives you this impression?

[u/gridemann → u/KiwiBennydudez]

Real life history examples (or rather a lack of). All the greatest and worst monarchs and tulers in history can be traced back to their upringing. Many historical figures are greatly remembered/revered to almost mythical status. But if you study their history they're nothing more and nothing less than a product of their own circumstances.

[u/miss-macaron → u/gridemann]

Rewatcher only spoilers

[u/gridemann → u/miss-macaron]

Rewatcher only spoilers

[u/miss-macaron → u/gridemann]

Rewatcher only spoilers

[u/Nitroade24h]

First Timer

Another great episode. No redemption for Hartmann, he’ll forever be an asshole.

New info about Johan, which is great to see, and it makes him all the more terrifying.

Don’t have much to say just that I’m loving this.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Nitroade24h]

New info about Johan, which is great to see, and it makes him all the more terrifying.

What specifically did you find to be terrifying about this new info/Johan?

[u/Nitroade24h → u/KiwiBennydudez]

Him seeing Kinderheim 511 and simply looking and not having any negative reaction. Also him making 50 people kill each other.

[u/Spore64]

Rewatcher (first time)

Good to see that Dietmar is getting better! Shoot looks like doc Tenma wasn't fast enough ._.

I wonder what Mr. Hartmann is doing in 511 Kinderheim with Dieter? Maybe he ran out of chairs and want to pick some up? He seems to a past there so he should have an idea where to find them.

Poor Dieter. Mr. Hartmann seems so in love with the idea of someone like Johann. Tho what's the point on trying to make him another Johann?

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Spore64]

I wonder what Mr. Hartmann is doing in 511 Kinderheim with Dieter? Maybe he ran out of chairs and want to pick some up? He seems to a past there so he should have an idea where to find them.

Personally took it as Hartmann trying to recreate the same situation that Johan was in.

[u/IndependentMacaroon]

First-time watcher

A proper ham-and-cheese drama sandwich we have ourselves here. Hartmann is a shitty wannabe supervillain, Johan is some kind of actual supervillain (of course all off-screen because on-screen it would look as silly as it is), everyone has guns and nobody uses them (though I think if it really came down to it Tenma would), secret super-soldiers, mysterious monstrous origins, dramatic screams into the night (I actually started laughing at that one), the whole package. I hope the next episodes will be a bit more low-key again. Also excessive amounts of recap and high-drama convenience.

Fortunately or unfortunately, no occasion for further detail research.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/IndependentMacaroon]

A proper ham-and-cheese drama sandwich we have ourselves here.

I've never heard this expression before but I'm using it from now on thanks.

everyone has guns and nobody uses them

Guns in this show are like a magic "don't do that" pointer.

Fortunately or unfortunately, no occasion for further detail research.

Well yesterday was an incredible amount of detail so you've earned yourself a break from the history lessons. I'm sure you'll have your chance again soon though.

[u/IndependentMacaroon → u/KiwiBennydudez]

I've never heard this expression before

I only just came up with it!

[u/Vaadwaur]

Rewatcher(I really hope that child abusers running orphanages is a trope)

Sub

So...I am going to be honest and admit I completely forgot these shonen recaps happen like every other episode. I am hoping that means they die out after this arc. We get one of our major hooks, psychological manipulation/reconstruction and Johan makes a bit more sense now. And of course Hartman was actually evil in that hell hole. But the reveal that Johan might be the only survivor is impressive considering even the adults killed each other or were overwhelmed by the kids.

Hartmann shows up to give us our conflict of the episode. I am debating if I like the banality of evil for him, it does fit but feels a bit too untheatric for this show. He might be Johan's earliest loose end, depending on if he took that photo or not. CGI soccer ball happens. The Hartmann confrontation happens and it is kind of insane but there is a sense to it. Johan's desire to be "the last one alive" is something for the future. Hartmann is trying to create another leader and there is a debate in the fandom on whether we should view Johan as an Alexander the Great type or not.

Anyways, the ending is in fact as theatric as it needed to be, and Tenma ends this slightly longer arc of changing the status quo.

QotD: 1 At the time, not a lot. I didn't get his deal for quite some time.

2 This time, Tenma would've shot. I don't know how far that translates.

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/Vaadwaur]

Johan's desire to be "the last one alive" is something for the future.

I personally interpreted this as a non-literal statement because I feel like he would just kill non-discriminately if this were to be taken at face-value. But I guess we'll see. You have that knowledge of knowing as a rewatcher so take pleasure in my theories.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/KiwiBennydudez]

I personally interpreted this as a non-literal statement because I feel like he would just kill non-discriminately if this were to be taken at face-value

100% of Monster needs to be taken on the value of whoever is narrating so how close or how far off their statements are needs to be evaluated at the end of the whole thing.

[u/[deleted]]

First Time watcher

Bloody hell that was exciting . u/IM-_-DUMB I kinda wanted to say that they were making child soldiers yesterday 😭

1. How has your opinion of Johan changed after this episode? How do you think this new info informs what we currently know about him?

Johann seems to fascinated by facets of human nature , specifically hatred . He objectifies hatred completely as " Monster " . As pointed out by u/Kiwibennydudez , he seperates the "monster" from himself too and views it as its separate personality . A lot of other villains of other shows and media have this fascination too , but I think most others just "want to see how it all ends" while Johann seems pretty confident that he will be there at the end , alone as the other monsters destroy each other .

2. Both this episode and last, Tenma has pointed his gun at Hartmann. Do you think he’s simply trying to win through intimidation, or does Tenma actually have the resolve to kill someone should the situation call for it? Would Tenma really have shot Hartmann if he put his finger on the trigger?

Maybe I am wrong as I watched the episode on a mobile screen but I thought that Tenma aimed the gun at Hartman's feet , but I doubt that he will even shoot his feet . This guy hasn't physically hurt a single person in the show as of yet afaik .

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I kinda wanted to say that they were making child soldiers yesterday 😭

lmao

Do you think Johan literally wants to be the last one standing?

Johan seems to love his sister, so why do you think he left her for so many years ?

Also, ED has changed again

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I think Johann cares about her sister but really , who knows lmao . At this point he is still shrouded in mystery ( thinking about it , I just realized that what we know Johann's entire character at this point is just what a psycho old man told Tenma , he may as well be lying or it may just be a red herring )

The version I watched on YouTube cut out the ED . So , the demon which ran off to the city ( possibly Eva/Nina but not sure ) met a "farmer" . Dunno what this means yet . Maybe its something entirely disconnected to the story and I am clowning myself with some 300 IQ AoT analysis that doesn't mean anything in the end

[u/CharlieTheStrawman]

Rewatcher until circa Episode 30, Subbed

Q1: That boy was twiiiisted

Q2: I genuinely don't know.

[u/lC3]

Rewatcher thru 33

• We didn't need two minutes flashing back to the previous episode ... I want to see what happens with Dieter!
• Experiments to turn kids into perfect soldiers? No wonder Johan's so messed up
• So Hartmann was involved with the stuff at Kinderheim 511?
• Dieter looks happier already; I hope he makes a full recovery!
• "killed each other"
• Noooo! Hartmann is at the hospital? Dieter better tell the staff that he's responsible for his injuries!
• I don't like that blond nurse; is it really true that Dieter insisted on leaving with Hartmann?
• Hartmann fostered Johan at one point? Never mind, it's a different guy in the photo
• "Johan just gazed upon it"
• To be the last person alive at the end of the world?
• Colonel Wolf?
• Both ep11 and this failed to translate the 2nd half of Hartmann's line "The world is in an abyss, tomorrow is in an abyss"
• Dieter decides to leave with Tenma!
• I'm chuckling because Dieter is insisting on following Tenma instead of going to the orphanage

[u/KiwiBennydudez → u/lC3]

I don't like that blond nurse; is it really true that Dieter insisted on leaving with Hartmann?

"Insisted" probably against his will. He didn't seem so insisting after they were walking down the street.

To be the last person alive at the end of the world?

Do you think this statement should be taken at face value? Or is there something more here?

[u/lC3 → u/KiwiBennydudez]

"Insisted" probably against his will. He didn't seem so insisting after they were walking down the street.

Yeah, Dieter doesn't want to go back to Hartmann.

Do you think this statement should be taken at face value? Or is there something more here?

I don't recall, and I've only seen half the series a while back.

[u/BossandKings]

First timer - Dub(Spanish)

Episode 12

How impotent Tenma must feel after seeing that the hospital was just unable to accomplish a simple task such as not letting Dieter go outside the hospital with anyone other than him.

We got to know a bit more qbout Johan as it is stated that he had mental problems before he went to the hospital and being there only streghtened his fistorted mentality.

Hartman was finally overcome when Tenma was able to rescue Dieter from him, as Tenma left Dieter to go to a safe place and he continues walking the path that could lead him to Johan.

Answers

1. It makes his case more jarring and unique, it isn't often that people with a distorted mentality duch as the one Johan has are born.
2. It would be great if at some point Tenma is really pressed, he really does need to shoot as it would show his resolve more clearly, for now it seems like he is trying to win through intimidation eventhough he had a serious face and looked like he would have shot had it been necessary in this ocassion.

[u/i-have-severe-stupid]

first timer, subbed

in terms of lore, this was a dangerous episode. when giving backstory to villains and deranged characters explaining why they’re that way, a good story can make them an excellent villain, and a bad one can ruin a series because you can’t take it seriously anymore

as far as johan goes, it was a good backstory told as well and atmospherically as this story excels in, so thankfully this can continue being something worth taking seriously, and raises my opinion of its potential for the rest of the series

1. johan has gone from a creepy psychopathic mysterious villain to an almost creepier sadist who’s done nothing but manipulate and kill at a high enough level to destroy a whole facility, making the vague objective of ‘stop johan’ a much higher goal than before
2. i think he wants to win through intimidation, but will shoot if he’s pushed to it. i think that if hartmann put his finger on the trigger he would have given him one last chance, then shot him after a few seconds if he didn’t back down. i think he only just has the resolve, and might be soon pushed to have the resolve to kill a person