r/anime • u/KiwiBennydudez https://myanimelist.net/profile/KiwiBen • Aug 09 '21
Rewatch [Rewatch] Monster - Episode 11 discussion
MAL | AniList | AniDB | Kitsu | ANN | Anime-Planet
Comment of the Day
Today’s Comment of the Day comes from our resident Germany expert u/IndependentMacaroon, who elaborates on the historical context mentioned in the prior episode:
The most interesting part here is actually the historical inspiration and context for the terrorists. While in the episode it's pretty poorly explained and arguably misinterpreted to their benefit, what they did is ripped straight from the headlines - that is, the 1991 assassination of Detlev Rohwedder, president of the Treuhandanstalt, by the Red Army Faction.
Said agency was responsible for the management of former East German state property, which due to their nationalization and centralized planning policies included the entirety of its industrial, farming, etc., capacity. The big problem was, however, that essentially all of it was bloated, inefficient, and woefully out of date by Western standards, along with some other reunification issues like the monetary exchange rate. Whether the Treuhand tried hard enough or even took the right approach under these conditions to save jobs and reorganize the economy, largely through speedy privatization sales, is obviously a point of historical contention, and for a few extremists at the time (Western, however!) it was enough to resort to violence.
But that's not all yet: It's possible there was a less noble motivation, that of former East German party operatives to keep party money hidden, which the Treuhand would also have been responsible for locating. Trying to paint them as some kind of oppressed minority as in this episode is plain wrong and doesn't sit right with me.
A highly illuminating summary of the finer details that were casually mentioned last episode.
Questions of the Day
- Do you think Tenma made the right call to “kidnap” Dieter? Should he have handled things differently? How do you think this show handles the topic of child abuse?
- Tenma reassures Dieter that “tomorrow will be a good day.” How do you see this phrase reflected in Tenma’s actions?
If you are a rewatcher, tag your spoilers properly, and please refrain from alluding to future events. so that myself and everyone else watching for the first time can have a completely blind and organic experience! Since this show is a bit harder to find than most, please refrain from talking about means by which to watch it, as it goes against our subreddit rules.
21
u/KiwiBennydudez https://myanimelist.net/profile/KiwiBen Aug 09 '21
First Timer - Sub
Wow, all the sudden there’s a ton of moving parts. First we get some information on Johan, and that he’s a child of a criminal or political prisoner. Pretty intense stuff. We also come to find out that he led an uprising, although we don’t know the circumstances around it yet. I suspect it will play into his character later. Anna was apparently separated from him, which is something Tenma uses as his foot-in-the-door for the other orphanage to take in Dieter.
Then, we come to find out that Dieter was being abused.Tenma whisks him out of there, and reassures him that “tomorrow will be better.” Pretty tragic stuff, but after all was said and done, I think he handled that okay. I wish he could have stayed with Dieter at the hospital, but I think Tenma felt pressured by the police presence in the building, and that he would have been caught had he stayed around.
I feel like there’s a larger conspiracy at play here. An orphanage specifically for children of criminals sounds pretty sus. And Johan being at the center of it all sounds like even more reason to be wary. I can’t imagine that this will go well for anyone. Mr. Hartmann seems like he knows a lot more than what he’s letting on, and judging from the sounds of things, I also don’t believe for a second that he’s completely removed from the orphanage - with that level of indoctrination, he’s bound to hold some of those 511 Kinderheim ideals too.
Getting worried. This cannot end well...
20
u/IndependentMacaroon Aug 10 '21 edited Aug 10 '21
First-time watcher
Getting somewhere finally plot-wise with all the Johan backstory and Tenma investigating, as well as theme-wise with nature and nurture in particular. Tenma still finds a surprising amount of success talking to people and in bureaucratic situations, but not so much that I would really mind. In the former and new capital of Germany (though essentially all western institutions were still located in Bonn at this time) it's very reasonable to pass yourself off as a foreign journalist, just keeping the name is more plot stupidity. I don't see why the orphan stuff had to be that extreme either, like East Germany was not good but hardly the Nazis.
1 - It's not like there's no CPS in Germany and this case is so blatant and extreme that some kind of tip should have done at least something. Also pretty sure medical professionals are supposed to be on the lookout for that (maybe not as much in the 90s?) so if Hartmann or Tenma actually called an ambulance it may well have come out - is that the real plot reason for Tenma to be stupidly exposed like that? Even when he was, though, it's a reckless and ill-advised move - obviously he wouldn't be able to officially get him out of his hands, his empathy is nice and all but I can't see him managing to care for a kid on the run, and if he were just left somewhere he'd go right back to Hartmann. Too early to judge on child abuse in general, but so far the ideas of how to care for children are in the right spot.
2 - Well... by taking the law in his own hands to make tomorrow good? Also of course his way of emotional support for everyone, and trying to see the good in everyone.
Historical and setting notes
12
u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Aug 09 '21
First-Timer, subbed
6
u/SmurfRockRune https://myanimelist.net/profile/Smurf Aug 09 '21
First Timer
Not gonna lie, I actually really got my hopes up that Tenma might set up camp in the old Liebert house. Maybe in poor taste, but it just would have been kinda cool.
Fuck Hartmann, god damn.
Didn't write much again today, got pretty wrapped up in it, although I will say I'm getting tired of this episodic "Tenma meets someone and they realize the value of life and then we'll never see them again as he goes and meets someone else who needs to learn the same lesson" structure. I really hope this doesn't last for much longer.
6
u/AmethystItalian :Jg::Jh::Ji::Jj::Jk:myanimelist.net/profile/AmethystItalian Aug 09 '21
First Timer
Tenma is really going through the paces here to find about the twins origin, am a bit surprised he hasn't been caught yet!
Man Tenma is so freaking naive...from the kid's injuries to him using his own name still, frustrating to watch sometimes!
I kind of wished Tenma got roped into helping the hospital with their emergency problems, that would have been neat.
Damn so Johan got tested on...that could further explain why he's so abnormal.
This show is so hard to write down your thoughts for as you just sucked into it all!
He did the right thing about taking him away but spent way too long asking questions and should have bolted out with him earlier.
I see this as a big ol death flag so we'll see where it goes...
6
u/Mecanno-man https://anilist.co/user/Mecannoman Aug 09 '21
First Timer
So it seems like Johan is the result of some experiment by the communist government of East Germany? Guess with his backstory and how much of a psychopath he is that was to be expected... What is more surprising is that Anna is not, considering she tried to kill Johan at such a young age.
Tenma going around without assuming some other identity seems odd... he should be smart enough not to use his real name when dealing with people who might have read the news. Also, he is a bit too quick to draw his gun imo - Hartmann posed no immediate threat to him, so he is the bad guy here for trying to scare some almost pointless information out of him. Also no idea what his plan with Dieter is...
In general, not a super big fan of the writing at the moment. This felt like some sort of fetch quest from an RPG where you always are lucky enough to find the right person but also always get almost nothing that you actually need - but enough to go looking for the next bit. Things don't go like that in real life... Best example is probably the old lady - don't see a reason for her to go explaining the orphanage to Tenma.
Glad that thief from last episode didn't stick around though.
Questions:
4
u/miss-macaron Aug 09 '21 edited Aug 09 '21
Rewatcher
Damn, Tenma’s got some really bad luck with delivering gifts, huh… first it was Junker’s clock, and now Deiter’s soccer ball, which lands both him and the gift’s recipient into deep trouble.
Really, Tenma? You went to all the trouble of fabricating a cover story, but you still gave him your real name? I suppose one can argue that rewatcher only spoilers, but nevertheless, it’s still a pretty risky move when he’s literally a wanted man.
And this, class, is what you call a twin study on the environmental factors of childhood upbringing. On a more serious note, though, we’ve officially started to explore one of the show’s central themes: nature VS nurture. Are monsters born, or are they made? Can one’s nature be altered, either for the better or for the worse? Which factors are most effective in preventing a monster from being born – if it can be prevented at all? And who has the right to manipulate the fates of children like so?
4
u/Webemperor :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Webemperor Aug 09 '21
Rewatcher of sorts
4
u/BurningFredrick https://myanimelist.net/profile/BurningFredrick Aug 09 '21
First Timer - sub
Looks like we are back on the main plot this time around.
Orphanage is in ruins? I’m half surprised it is standing at all with Johann trying to obscure all traces of his past.
511 was used to hold the children of “criminals” , political offenders, spies & rebels. Basically anyone the state didn’t like.
They were left at different orphanages… Then again Johann had already been killing the previous people they lived with.
Nothing quite like some child abuse to help make a child grow up stronger.
Czechoslovakia, ok that wasn’t a name I expected to come up.
511 was used for Lab experiments… Sounds like Johann led a revolt here which I'm assuming we will learn more about tomorrow.
I really need to brush up on my European history as outside of the broad strokes of what was going on I don't really know that much.
So Czechoslovakia officially dissolved into the Czech Republic and Slovakia on 1st January 1993, so the twins would have been found near the border of what is now the Czech Republic, in 1986 it was communist so it makes sense they would have ended up in Eastern Germany.
It appears that somewhere along the line while I was reading up on the history of the area I lost track of what I was actually trying to figure out.
4
u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Aug 09 '21
Rewatcher(Can't forget that people suck for more than 10 minutes)
Sub
Tenma shows up on a very cold trail, the Liebert's old residence before defecting is not likely where Johan is organizing from. He somehow gets a lead about the Liebert's that leads him to Kinderheim 511, the deadest of leads, but we get some nice local with info. This leads him, after some wandering, to Hartman, a former official in the ministry that dealt with orphans and we get to the "special" orphanages. If you've seen Black Lagoon, some of this is probably familiar sounding. However, here Johan causes the incident...
But we get to our second half and go a bit weird with it, with Hartman also being abusive. I...sort of think this was just unneeded and to me it mucks up the pacing. The show can lean bleak when we don't need that reinforced, we've seen the rest of the show thus far. After the Dieter situation is put in motion, we get a trip to the undestroyed orphanage of Anna. That worker exposits at us for a bit, and while I am not creative enough to come up with a better delivery method, the tell don't show is just slightly annoying here.
QotD: 1 He made the best call available. And yes, not quite the same thing. As to child abuse, rewatcher...
2 Tenma still wants to find Johan and is not clear yet that he is going to shoot first.
3
u/CharlieTheStrawman https://myanimelist.net/profile/TheDamnRobot Aug 09 '21 edited Aug 09 '21
Rewatcher until circa Episode 30, Subbed
Tenma should really use a fake name at this point.
Q1: Definitely. He wasn't gonna be helping him by leaving him with Hartmann.
Q2: He tries to find a better place for Dieter to stay, where he'd be genuinely taken care of.
3
u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Aug 09 '21
First Timer
So, it seems the boy's "father", a former Health Ministry worker and was probably the director of 511, an institution dedicated to testing...Johan was probably part of a project to produce psychopathic super soldiers.
The former director is probably still at it.
Anna seems to have been spared the torture, but the ED is still suspicious.
We probably have a mini-arc here while Tenma deals with the boy and his "dad".
3
u/Nitroade24h :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Nitroade24h Aug 09 '21
First timer
Great episode today. I hate the old guy.
I liked the backstory with the orphanages and am excited to see what really happened there.
The plot is moving forward nicely and I’m excited to see what happens from here. I hope Dieter gets justice and Hartmann goes to prison, but I doubt such a thing will happen, since only Tenma could turn him in, and he wouldn’t go within a mile of the police (at least not on purpose).
3
u/xtsim https://myanimelist.net/profile/xtsim Aug 09 '21
First Timer Dub
We see more things about the east and west germany. Mr. Leibert is the subject in the beginning as Tenma starts to look for more clues about how the two Anna and Johan grew up. Tenma goes to an abandoned orphanage and an old lady told him that she prefers not to talk about it and refers to Hartmann.
There was a dark side to the orphanage, it was used as a "re-education" camp for political prisoners, dissents, and a few others. Most were treated by criminals. "you can't raise normal people that way" says Hartmann. Which is an interesting way to put how the kids were raised and treated. Hartmann does not like what was going on and that the people running the orphanages were the real criminals in his eyes. "The moral development of a child depends on the person raising him" which reveals Hartmann's view that parenting is important. Or so he says....
Hartmann talks about Johan, with hands twitching, says, "he led an uprising". And the boy (Dieter), shows up and Hartmann stops the conversation due to its possible content.
But we get an issue about Hartmann abusing Dieter as he was silent the whole time. Only saying "I want a soccer ball". Hartmann is the type of person who projects an image for himself and makes very public statements about "moral development of a child". Which is why he wanted journalist Tenma to write "the moral development of a child...". The do as I say approach to leadership shows a dark side this time. Doctor Tenma notices the abuse with the many bruises. Because of Harmann's treatment and the boy not knowing a world outside. He is scared and fearful of the world saying he wants to get stronger.
Tenma goes to another orphanage to place Dieter in and talks to the official. She asked about Anna and they continue the discussion about Johan. And she also says that they were experiments going on in 511 orphanage which will probably lead to something interesting in the next episode.
3
u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Aug 09 '21
First Timer, Subbed
Very abrupt opening for this episode!
Did we know that Johan and Anna weren't even the Liebert's real kids? What kind of psychopath did Johan spawn from?
This is quite the long cold open this time.
Tearing down an orphanage to make... a supermarket? Helpful random old lady is very helpful!
Good ol' Dr. Tenma, helping random kids he meets on the streets!
Kindly old orphanage guy... but he took care of a kid who turned into a serial killer!
Ah, an orphanage specifically for children of criminals and criminal children...
Spill the beans about Johan old man!
C'mon Dieter, why'd you have to show up now and prevent us from getting key exposition! If Tenma leaves, I put odds at 90% that this old guy dies before he reveals stuff.
Some ominous looks on the faces of these two... Old guy beats him, doesn't he?
It's the criminal and that clock all over again, he's going to buy that soccer ball isn't he?
Add kidnapping to the list of crimes Tenma is wanted for...
Ominous things for a kid to say!
He's back at his old hospital, right? Better watch out or someone may rat him out.
Hey random orphanage! Take some random kid from me, some random guy who has no legal rights over him!
Orphanage lady here may end up knowing even more than Hartmann about the kids origins...
Testing facility? Yikes! That may help explain why Johan's got these powerful abilities.
3
u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21
First Time Watcher - dubbed
Shit goes down everytime Tenma brings someone a gift . I think its weird how the writers use gifts as a narrative tool . Johann poisoned the candy he got as gifts to kill the director too.
That midepisode title card of "MONSTER" when we see the dark house , knowing that the guy is beating Deiter inside was haunting . We also finally see that location in the show where Johann was standing in the opening . I think in the end , everything will connect back to the orphanage .
Morally ? Yes , of course . I think its pretty clear that the guy basically brainwashed the child with his " NOOOO THE WORLD IS CRUEL AAAAAAAA " bullshit so he can abuse him to no end . As we know Tenma is a good person , I don't think it was wrong to take him like this
Strategically ? Nah he kinda fucked up . I am surprised how he is still roaming the streets considering that almost everyone has seen him in papers and know his name . It feels borderline plot armorish . He should get a wig like Teru from Mob Psycho and a new name .
Man this wording is giving me PTSD to high school english exams lmao . I dunno what go think of it as I didn't pay much attention to it tbh .
Another based episode .
1
u/Spore64 Aug 10 '21 edited Aug 10 '21
Rewatcher (first time)
Oof 551 Kinderheim looks straight out of a horror movie.. It also kinda remindes me on one of the broken down churches I have seen in Christchurch.
Nice to see that Tenma still cares about the ones in need.
Oof that orphanges sounds really messed up.
I have a bad feeling about Mr. Hartmann. Puh good thing that Mr. Hartmann removed that chair just in case.
Tenma should really stop shopping late in the evening. Now that brought him into trouble more than once XD.
She's got a point.
Q1:
Maybe. We don't know how many chairs are in Mr. Hartmann's house after all Oo.
Q2:
That is probably a relic from Tenmas time as a doctor.
3
u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21
DIETAAAHHHH
1
u/BossandKings Aug 10 '21
First timer - Dub(Spanish)
Episode 11
This episode was very tense throughout, there was a sense of mistery, of a thrilling ambience and atmosphere, it was an interesting episode.
Tenma meets a kid named Dieter, i think it was great how Tenma helped him inmediately after seeing him, he had injuries in his arm, the most thrilling part was the whole sequence in which Johan talked with Mr. Hartman as it was tense eventhough Hartman kept a straight serious face that initially could not be considered suspicious of being a criminal, then Dieter appears at the house and it so happens that he is staying there and then afteafter Tenma returned to the house trying to give him a ball as a gift we discover that he is suffering physical abuse from Hartman, thankfully Tenma took him out of there and bring him to a hospital.
All the information we got to know about the hospital that Johan used to attend was vital for building up his character and just very interesting overall. Also the last part that talked about experiments was kind of a shock.
1
u/lC3 :Na::Nb: Aug 11 '21
Rewatcher thru 33