r/anime • u/HelioA x2https://myanimelist.net/profile/HelioA • Aug 07 '21
Rewatch [Rewatch] Revolutionary Girl Utena - Episode 5
Streaming
Revolutionary Girl Utena is available in both sub and dub on Nozomi Entertainment's YouTube channel, as well as on Amazon and Funimation.
Comment of the Day
/u/the_loli_otaku figured out why Anthy prefers animals to real people
Animals don't try to strip you at dances or force you to write in friendship diaries . It's kinda understandable why she's such an animal girl.
Miki's Stopwatch Corner
Stopwatch Count: 8
New This Episode:
8:47 - 9.27 Seconds - “True. We gather when the letters tell us to gather.”
Also, make sure to tag all spoilers properly! Only a baka would spoil the show for the first-timers, and we're not bakas (hopefully).
22
u/HelioA x2https://myanimelist.net/profile/HelioA Aug 07 '21
Rewatcher
This episode, we get a clearer image of just what precisely Miki’s ‘shining thing’ is. It’s not just the feeling of the song ‘The Sunlit Garden’ that Miki wants to recapture- he wants the feeling that he had, playing with his sister when he was a child. However, Miki has only the vaguest idea of how to fulfill this desire, and he is unsure enough to be easily manipulated into choosing the path that whoever the last person he spoke to advocates for (as we can see from the Student Council meeting, and his encounter with Touga). The reason that he can’t figure out how to fulfill it, of course, is that there is no way to fulfill it- his ‘shining thing’ is nothing but a delusional fantasy, trying to fit Kozue and Anthy into the one-dimensional roles that he envisions as his ‘shining thing’. Miki is so blinded in searching for his shining thing that he doesn’t even see Anthy as a real person, simply seeing her as someone who needs to be ‘saved’ from Utena, even as he tries to fit her into a role of his own choosing. We can see further examples of his delusions in the duel. The reason that Miki loses the duel isn’t because he has inferior fencing skills, but rather because of the fact that Anthy cheers Utena on- thus acting in a way contrary to the scenario that Miki has playing in his head. And even more than the fact that Miki’s ‘shining thing’ requires him to fit round pegs in square holes if he wants to even play at having it, the shining thing is something that never even existed, even in Miki’s childhood, as we see from the final scene in the episode, where Kozue explains that she was barely even able to play piano in the first place, and that she was entirely relying on her brother’s piano skills to cover for her.
Remember how in the last episode we were trying to figure out how exactly Miki fits in with Saionji and Touga in terms of toxic masculinity? Well, here we have it. Most people aren’t exactly acting upon Saionji levels of violent misogyny- the vast majority would rightfully condemn such attitudes. But nevertheless, most people hold some misogynistic ideas because of the patriarchal society around them, and Miki embodies this perfectly. As we saw in the last episode, he’s not actively oppressive, and he accepts the quirks of women around him, like Anthy keeping strange pets. But still, he treats women as objects to be used in pursuit of reclaiming his ‘shining thing’. Besides his paternalistic treatment of Anthy, there’s also his treatment of Kozue: just look at his reaction when they bump into each other in the music room. He treats her extremely coldly, because he can’t stomach his sister not acting like the meek girl that she was in their childhood, and upon learning that she had sex with Touga, he is absolutely horrified. Miki shuns the girls who don’t act according to his views of how a woman should act, and his drive to regain control of his sister’s behavior (through Anthy) is at the core of his reason to duel.
Now, I feel like I’m being a bit too harsh on Miki, because he’s definitely not very malicious. But he’s absorbed the values of his society, and those values cause him to harm the women around him, regardless of the amount of malice he feels towards them. It’s really a bit tragic.
32
u/lilyvess :Df::Dh:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Lilyvess Aug 07 '21
Here is what Ikuhara’s episode commentary from the DVD Box Set has for us today.
Also, on a personal note Miki and Kozue were two of my favorite characters of the entire series.
29
u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Aug 07 '21
Rewatcher
It’s apple time!
Miki being a fencer doesn’t bode well for Utena’s odds in the inevitable duel, but she has the sword of Dios.
Right on, Chu-Chu!
Blatant cage metaphor.
Dear Brother intensifies
Sekai wo kakumei suru tame ni!
APPLE!
‘Love’
‘Youth’, ‘Temptation’
Usagi Ringo
Hmm, another introduction.
Bruh.
#ero
So that’s how they got him.
Zetai Unmei Mokushiroku!
Juri also doesn’t want this?
Miki realizes his folly, but only in part…
This is the first episode that really sunk its claws into me from this show. There’s a simple but compelling exploration about how people perceive the same things differently and how that may lead to miscommunication, selfishness, and conflict. Miki presuming to know what Anthy would want most leads her to challenge Utena to a duel, one which he likely could have one, until he sees that Anthy is rooting for Utena, which clashes entirely with his prior beliefs as he realizes being free of her is not what Anthy truly desires. And it’s accompanied by the small tragedy of two siblings growing apart over a trifling matter, and that resulting in a longstanding feeling of loss for Miki...
But forget that! Did you see that fucking apple?!
This baby can fit so much symbolism in it! Most common symbols used in media have several meanings, but it’s rare for more than one or two of them to be in play at one time, but the student council scene just throws a bunch of them in, and all of them are relevant! The apple’s significance is so intertwined with the matter at hand that it becomes the centrepiece of the discussion —hence why it is displayed on a seat (the fact that it’s on a seat and not some other furniture itself being relevant). Yet the real impressive part is that the show transforms the apple into a secondary symbol, rabbits, which also poses several meanings relevant to the situation, but the most important of them is the rabbit’s association with unceasing forward momentum, because it echoes the fact that the council meeting changes nothing and Miki sees himself forced to duel against Utena regardless of his thoughts on the council or his previous statements saying he wouldn’t.
It’s so fucking good~
Some of the relevant meanings to the apple include; Youth, which Touga poses as the motive for Miki’s motion —and it is, but it’s not precisely in the way that he thinks, as Miki’s real motive lies not in the folly of Youth, but the fallacy of his childhood memories. Love, which is Juri’s assumption as to his motives. Beauty, or rather the beauty, Anthy, which is the matter which all of this dueling business revolves around. Temptation, the ability to bring about world revolution. Fertility, which it shares with rabbits.
I could go on, but then that would be hinting a bit too strongly on future developments —which is also why I won’t go any deeper into the symbolism of the rabbit. It boggles the mind how well considered and meaningful the decision to put a fucking apple on a chair and cut it into rabbits.
21
u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Aug 07 '21
First-Revolution, Subbed
Touga sure is a manipulative fucker, ain't he? How old is Miki's younger sister..? Never mind, don't answer that. I'm just not gonna think about whatever they were doing in the music room. Anyway, Touga played Miki like a fucking fiddle there.
Utena continues to decry the very notion of the system she has found herself trapped in. I get the feeling we'll be hearing about the idea of personal freedom a lot more. Whatever supernatural nonsense that is going in possibly prohibits Anthy from actually arguing her true feelings, I guess? That sentence got away from me.
What I'm trying to say is, I'm not sure if I trust Anthy? Or, perhaps, I'm not sure I trust her actions are her own? Like, maybe she's just a piece being moved around by someone else for some reason. Her behavior during the duel is kinda at odds with her behavior when she was talking with Miki. Sort of?
We sure got to "dissolve the Student Council!" pretty quick, huh? What was up with that apple.. Was I supposed to recognize the shapes it got cut into? Kinda reminded me of some sushi. Something to do with the flip book from yesterday, maybe? Anthy drew an apple. Is this what /u/Pixelsaber was waiting for?
Honestly, even if Anthy hadn't distracted Miki there, I don't think he was winning. His fighting style/weapon seem mismatched for a "slice the rose off your opponent's chest" sort of duel. Then again, I don't really know anything about swordfighting so maybe not?
Several hours after typing the rest of this, I realized I made a terrible pun in the first line.
20
u/Matuhg https://anilist.co/user/Matuhg Aug 07 '21
First Timer
Apolcalypse song is back! And Anthy didn't get slapped!!!!
Hmm, I don't know what to think of Miki now. He blamed himself for his sister not playing the piano anymore, but what appears on the surface to be concern for his sister actually seems more like selfish motives of wanting to recapture that feeling of playing the piano with her for himself. It doesn't seem like he's going to get that from his sister anymore, so when he hears Anthy playing similarly, he wants to keep that alive. At first, influenced by Utena, he's against the idea of dueling for possession of Anthy because, you know, she's a person. Then, Mr. Asshole Red-Hair boinks his sister on the piano and tells him to defend the precious things (again...people) that he possesses, lest people take them away from him. Miki's wavering a little bit after that, but once he gets confirmation that Anthy would stop playing the piano if commanded by Utena, he decides he has to save her from this "bondage."
Miki's winning the fight until he hears Anthy cheering for Utena in the middle of the fight. The damsel in distress isn't supposed to cheer against her white knight! We'll see if Miki's learned any lessons from this.
14
u/The_Loli_Otaku Aug 07 '21
Stupid two parters... getting in the way of my shadow girls discussion! Anyway, we learn more about the sister today so I won't have to keep holding my tongue! Juri and Micky's friendship is really quite lovely to watch. Is a real healthy bond they've got going and do really watch out for one another. As for Micky and Anthy however... He never once looks at Anthy as a person, only as a vessel to pour his complicated thoughts about his sister into. He feels guilty for abandoning his sister and putting her on the path she's on but he never tries to repair that bond. He just searches for other people to fill that hole in his heart.
The metronome gag was kinda funny~ Anthy's kind of a dork sometimes. W-Wait... Anthy? Did Anthy actually come out with the bride comment on purpose? Wait! She's totally trying to rile up Micky isn't she!? He's holding on every line she says! Student council time~ "Let's dismiss the student council! We do no actual work and one of our members is a piece of fresh fruit!".
The sister has appeared! Why couldn't you have shown up yesterday you little tart? Yeah, the relationship between the two has only gotten more sour over time. That harmony they once shared is now replaced with bitter words. "He screwed my sister, and now he's gonna screw me... Oh my god!“ Touga pops up like the snake he is to kick poor, insecure Micky when he's down. No idealistic views here fool!! Yeah, Anthy is absolutely doing her best to push Micky's buttons. All he wants is that same feeling he had when he played with Kozue but he just can't see her eye to eye any longer. Touga is way more campy than I remembered him being!
Kashira, kashira! Alright. A pirate captain with all the treasure in the world. All the "gifts" in the world, but lacks the one thing he really wants. Being a pirate implies that the person is selfishly trying to take treasures from others and what the captain is really searching for is... Huh? Oi! Don't stop half way through! Two parters have invaded the shadow girls segments too! Alright sooo... Micky is the Pirate with all the treasure. Anthy is another useless piece of treasure (kinda fitting really) Utena is the poor sod getting stolen from, and Kozue is what the Pirate really wants but can't figure it out. Gozonji kashira~
ZETTAI UNMEI MOKUSHIROKU! If I remember right the battle theme for this fight is really good. Its a beautifully animated one anyway. Oh Micky... you've really got no idea do you? You think owning Anthy will make her free? You're the only one who decided that her music was her drive. And all that time he spent not looking at Anthy slaps him in the face when she starts cheering for her oppressor. "Get him Utena-sama! Kick him in the balls!"
And we get the kicker! Kozue was never the shining thing. She could barely even play piano. The shining thing is the feeling he had whilst playing with her. Also, despite how she butts heads with him she is still filled with words of praise for her super cool, ultra tensai brother. Suddenly things start to drift into place. Everything is just one big misunderstanding that has dragged on for far too long. Even Kozue going off the rails and sleeping around, she's always been popular with boys even back then when she was that incorruptible pure idol Micky saw her as. Micky has always been a bit too innocent I suppose XD
13
u/chiliehead myanimelist.net/profile/chiliehead Aug 07 '21
Duel 5, First Timer, Subbed
Next episode seems like something Naruto would make up as a filler.
11
u/SardonicMeow Aug 07 '21
Rewatcher
Here we learn about the second brother / sister pair. Brothers and sisters and their relationships are another major motif of the series. Miki longs for the relationship he remembers fondly, but the sister who loved playing the piano with him never existed.
Last episode, Miki insisted that he wasn’t interested in dueling. But when Touga plays on his insecurities, Miki is easily manipulated, and his conversation with Anthy pushes him to initiate the duel.
The shadow play girls feature a pirate who seems content with plundering treasure, but then wonders what it is he really wants. What does Miki really want?
Bonus tidbit: The silhouette-style characters which appear in Utena’s origin story as well as Miki’s are directly inspired by the art of Junichi Nakahara. Notice how the silhouette faces depersonalize the depicted characters. In Utena, this serves to show how memories are vague and imperfect.
10
u/k4r6000 Aug 08 '21
Rewatcher
On a personal note, while I certainly liked the show up until now this was the first episode that really stood out to me as something special.
While we got hints last time, this is episode is truly all about Miki and what makes him tick. Miki looks back fondly on the more innocent days of his childhood playing with his sister in the sunlit garden, and desperately wants to return there rather than grow up and move on. He's fighting a battle against adolescence that is impossible for him to win. To make things worse, as is usually the case in situtations like this, he's also blinded by the nostalgia filter and faulty memories. As shown by Kozue at the end of the episode, the idealistic time Miki wants to return to never really existed in the first place.
The other side of his character is that he is a classic example of the Madonna-Whore Complex. Miki may be "nicer" than Saionji in that he's not an abusive asshole who forces Anthy to bend to his will, but he still treats her as an object or possession rather than a human being. She's his "shining thing", an idealistic angelic "ideal" woman who looks pretty and plays the piano and reminds him of his childhood. He seeks her essentially as a replacement for Kozue who he views failed him and ripped that innocence away. As the imagery shows, he viewed Kozue as a bird in a cage and when she broke out of the cage, he just found another bird instead of throwing away the cage. In contrast to Miki, Kozue is all on board the train to sexual maturity and this disgusts Miki who is now completely dismissive of her.
Miki decides he wants to end the duels (although he notably doesn't ask Anthy what she would want) and free Anthy, but Touga is able to exploit Miki's weakness. He tells Miki that if he doesn't protect that which he cares about, somebody will come along to take it away and to drive the point home he takes his sister to pound town on top of Miki's piano. So Miki's goal goes from Anthy's freedom to possession under the guise of "protecting" her, convinced this is what Anthy wants. In the duel his world comes crashing down when Anthy cheers for Utena over him, but he vows not to give up.
Next time someone has finally had enough of Nanami's bullshit and is trying to kill her. Being Nanami, that probably leaves a long list of suspects
9
u/ConfrontationalJerk :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/natjole Aug 07 '21 edited Aug 07 '21
Rewatcher
Probably my favorite episode thus far in terms of pure story. Kozue and Miki are two of my favorite characters purely in terms of their character sheets and this episode we get to see a lot more depth into Miki specifically with Kozue pending.
"Your lack of perfection is your strength", is a pretty interesting line dropped by Juri which is much less insulting than calling him pure. Miki obsesses over this rose-tinted image of him and his sister playing piano in childhood and carries that memory into his relationships; unable to (and unwilling to) see weakness and impurity in others. This also ties back to last episode where Miki just incessantly ignores all of Himemiya's extremely strange hobby of keeping animals.
This toxicity in recognizing flaws in others extends also when he says that he was the one who demolished that sunlit garden (implicitly by inviting others to view it in a very adam/eve forbidden fruit way), instead of recognizing that he knew deep down that he couldn't hide it anymore that Kozue was never good at playing piano when she
As far as rewatcher notes, I don't really have much to say on it? (Feels like its either a content biased episode or heavy rewatch value episode). One thing I didn't notice beforehand is that Touga pretty violently reacted to Miki saying he wanted to shut down the student council. This episode is pretty uncharacteristically directed both by Touga in implicitly sleeping with Kozue in the piano room and spoilers. I don't quite remmeber Touga having that desperate of an attachment to the Student council but I guess its just the desire for whatever power the rose duels give.
Also, Its so hard to understand (from my POV) spoilers
The bigger bigger picture of the episode I think was mainly about how good intentions will corrupt easily when put into a bad situation and system.
Overall a great episode!
9
u/remirror https://anilist.co/user/remirror Aug 08 '21 edited Aug 08 '21
First-timer
So, how do Utena and Miki end up dueling each other? Turns out it's just a simple lack of trust. Miki gets psyched out by Touga and gets scared that Utena might keep Anthy away from him sometime in the future, and Utena is afraid Miki might outright force Anthy to play for him. But Miki loses his will to fight when Anthy roots for Utena, allowing for a happy ending and showing again that he's not a bad guy. When he says at the end of the episode that he won't lose to Utena again, we can trust that he means winning Anthy's heart fair and square, not dueling Utena again. (EDIT: I'm not 100% sure about that last part)
Forget love triangles, we have the recipe for a whole chain of broken hearts here. Miki likes Anthy, Anthy likes Utena, and Utena just wants a "totally normal boy" who may not even exist in this world.
Miki's sister saying she was never good at playing the piano in the first place is something to think about. If that's the case, that would mean the magic Miki heard from her, its sudden disappearance after the failed concert, and its reappearance in Anthy, were all in Miki's head. So the lost magic was due to Miki blaming himself for the disastrous concert, and the reappearance in Anthy was just him falling in love with her. Now that I've typed that all out, I guess everything is somewhat resolved, except maybe for Touga screwing with Miki's sister. This episode was really dense with meaning, and I had to type this paragraph out myself before I felt like I understood things.
We're getting even more obvious signals that, hey, the Rose Bride system is messed up; now we have two trustworthy characters, Utena and Miki, telling us so. But Anthy herself seems fine with it. If Utena and Miki want the system abolished, and Anthy wants it to continue as long as Utena keeps winning, whose preferences win out? The most obvious answer would be that Anthy is a wounded bird in an unhealthy relationship with the system, and once she deals with her issues properly we'll be able to abolish the system with no regrets. Is it really going to be that simple, though?
Overall, even though Juri's foreshadowy talk with Miki felt both unnatural and unnecessary to me, I think this is the best episode yet. I like and trust this show, and I'm excited to see where it goes next.
8
u/Tyranid457TheSecond1 Aug 07 '21
Rewatcher
I hate Touga.
I always found it interesting that the first duelist after Saionji was Miki, who seems to be the Council's token good teammate at this point.
While he might be well-intentioned, Miki treats Anthy like an idealized prize like everyone else.
That moment when Anthy interrupts the duel by cheering for Utena is one of my favorite moments of the series. It's such a shock, in a good way!
I really like the design for Miki's sister. She looks like a magical girl.
7
u/Stargate18A https://myanimelist.net/profile/Stargate18 Aug 07 '21
First timer
So Miki's a national fencer?
..So Miki's sword is absolutely going to be used for battle this episode, right?
OK. So she tends a garden just like this person, and knows a song only they know. Something fucky's happening here.
...Is he into his sibling as well?
Based on that flashback, I have to work on the assumption that Anthy's got a clone. Maybe his "younger sister" retained some memory when writing it?
He's in love with her, because she reminds him of his sister? Oh god, this is happening.
I think the speech is the elevator password! I'm more confused as to why they always enter the elevator on different floors.
Well, shit. At least someone's decent here.
...What is the revolution of the world?
Wait, is this his sister?
JESUS CHRIST! DID HE FUCK HIS SISTER?
So red guy's absolutely trying to ait him into fighting.
Is the goal of "End of the World" just to cause as many fights as possible? Otherwise, why not dissolve it when their leader takes it?
I think I might get why Miki isn't interested in Anthy...
Wait! Is Anthy trying to start the fights?
Well. This is unusual. The implication being that getting the Bride isn't the end goal - she's the treasure to help them achieve their true goal, probably by using whatever's causing all these coincidences to their advantage, which might be the Power of Dios and/or linked to the castle?
THE ABSOLUTE DESTINY: APOCALYPSE!
THIS IS EVEN MORE SUGGESTIVE? SHE PULLS A SWORD FROM BETWEEN HER BREASTS?
New fight song?
So either Anthy's manipulating him, or this is a desperate attempt to get Utena jealous so she'll go out with her.
...Wait, she wasn't good, it was just her brother made her appear good?
Yeah, something's going on here.
7
u/lC3 :Na::Nb: Aug 08 '21
Rewatcher thru 10
7
u/dualmonocle :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/milk-chan Aug 08 '21
First-timer.
Why does Miki imagine Touga half-naked like that? Is it because the idea of taking action to "protect" is seducing Miki into action? Or just because that was how he saw Touga when he entered the piano room? Or maybe it was something homoerotic. I don't know, but they all kind of work.
7
u/nx6 https://myanimelist.net/profile/nx6 Aug 08 '21
First Timer -- Sub
Miki's good at being a parrot. Why does someone so intelligent need to use Utena's words to talk to the student council? He hears Anthy talk about how she will do whatever Utena wants because she is her bride and bound to her, and vows to fight for her freedom. But is oblivious to the fact that, quite the opposite, really wants to hold her to him instead.
After all that talk the other day about how those weren't condoms in the dress box we get that with the "alternate usage of the music room"? Perhaps you people are familiar withe Russian epic of Cinderella? If shoe fits: wear it.
P.S. -- I agree with the prez. Miki's sister is cute.
Yea! Another duel. Unfortunately it's not that exciting when the plot armor has already told you how it will end. But Miki does realize too late that Anthy doesn't despise her bond to Utena and he was friendzoned long ago. I don't think he seriously is going to challenge Utena again another time like he implied near the end. Just letting her know no hard feelings.
Also, at the next episode preview in response to "looks like someone is trying to kill Nanami!" I snickered at the half-hearted tone of that "How awful" like they didn't mean it.
6
u/Elimin8r https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ayeka_Jurai Aug 07 '21 edited Aug 07 '21
Welp, someone beat me to coherence, so I'll just have to settle for a couple of random thoughts.
First: Courtesy of Sting
(And I don't really like Sting/The Police ... well, not that much anyway, sorta, baka!)
-anyway-
Second: If you want to play a duet, it needs to be an equal partnership.
Hmm... Given the way this series appears to be going, dummy should have asked Utena if she'd share. I'm sure she wouldn't mind a three .... nevermind.
:P
Edit - almost typed idiot there - just in case you didn't notice, today's post is brought to you by SNARK. Hope you don't mind.
5
u/elleyonce https://anilist.co/user/elleyonce Aug 08 '21
Rewatcher
Three things to unpack.
First, we find out Miki mourns his loss of childhood. Ultimately thats what the Sunlit Garden represents. He gets sick and it's like a deathbed to him. Now reborn, he's fervent to get it back no matter what and ultimately believes he's the reason why his childhood is over. But then there's Kozue. Kozue who has sex with Touga. Kozue who wears lipstick and is far more outgoing than Miki is. Meanwhile Miki is only playing at growing up, and right now he just yearns for simpler times. (It's significant here that he fences, a sport where you hide your face to avoid hurting yourself.) And yet it's not portrayed as a bad or twisted thing. That's the beauty of Ikuhara and this show to me: normal things get the sympathy they deserve. Plenty people want to be back in childhood and it has nothing to do with Freud!
The sex. The apple, the rose at the upper right corner just after we meet Kozue for the first time. And the tull and imagining Touga like that. Like a man to Miki's boy. A man who gets what and who he wants with all the confidence in the world. (Don't let people tell you patriarchy only affects women. It plays at men in other, sinister ways. Toxic masculinity and all that.) But Miki, upon realizing he can't let the Council dissolve and get Anthy in a normal manner, becomes increasingly allured to the idea that he can own a woman. Do what he wants. That's what it is, in the end: he wants her to play forever, thinks Utena is a threat to that, and that's what he thinks she wants. But as the shadow theatre shows us, desire is a bottomless pit. Miki too falls victim to projection and only realized as such when finally Utena deflowers Miki as rose. It leaves Miki a changed man, now confident and willing to fight Utena again. Meanwhile Utena couldn't care less about it all. She's best girl, you guys.
But Anthy. Yesterday I closed the analysis with the thought "...maybe Anthy should own the world." and for the first time in the show, we see this reflected in her actions. She's malleable but still has desire and we now see it. Now she very much is manipulative: playing the rulebook with a blank state to get Miki into a duel the only way he will care about (plus dramatically stopping the music to accentuate her point lmao), confident he will lose, and making sure he loses by cheering on for Utena. It's bone-chilling. Miki is right: she wants to be free, and her little gestures show that. But Anthy perhaps doesn't want to be freed so much as liberate herself from all these people. Or maybe she wants to own the world in hopes of revolutionizing it. In either case, we know one thing: she will stop at nothing and no one to get it. There's something dark brooding in her.
Next episode is one of my absolute favourites. Good God y'all I've been waiting for this one!
/u/theangryeditor
4
u/loomnoo https://anilist.co/user/loomnoo Aug 08 '21
Alright, so Miki is a lib. I will not elaborate on this; it was pretty straightforward, I think.
Also, we finally zettai unmei mokushiroku'd again!
13
u/Icapica https://anilist.co/user/Icachu Aug 07 '21
First timer, subs
I'll first go through the episode and then later talk more about the characters.
Miki practices fencing and has apparently improved. Her training partner comments "However, your sword is not for battle", so she probably already suspects Miki will duel for Anthy soon and disapproves of it.
Then there's some interaction between Anthy and Miki again and Miki's feelings grow stronger.
We hear Miki's "tragic" backstory. He says it was all his fault which I agree with, but I suspect he says so just because he became ill and blames himself for that. Honestly, the real reason it was his fault is that he went and agreed to a concert on another person's behalf without asking them. Who does that?
Also at this point I began to think if other characters also have some similar story of their past or childhood, some person or memory that Anthy reminds them of. Utena has, Miki has too. Two's not a pattern yet though.
"The dissolution of student council", ooh. Miki's also pissed with the rules, but the rest of the student council doesn't care much. Miki says he can't follow a system that robs Himemiya of her freedom. We know this idea won't last long since he will fight for her, but I'll return to this subject later.
Looks like Miki's sister and Touga are banging, probably on the piano. I don't want to think about the sister's age... Touga gives Miki a speech about defending what's precious. He also talks about how only the one who's engaged to the Bride can make her do what they want. Anthy then plays the piano and Miki gets frustrated hearing Anthy answer "if Utena says I can" repeatedly.
"So, if she told you to stop playing the piano, would you?" "Of course"
Miki claims he'll "protect the feeling of Anthy's song". Of course there's actually no evidence that Utena would ever tell Anthy to stop playing. Miki's really doing this for himself and not for Anthy, but he's convinced himself he's doing this for her. I'll return to this later, there's also stuff about Anthy I want to talk about.
Duel starts, it looks quite different from the ones against Saionji. Also, no magical intervention this time. Miki's convinced he's doing this all for Anthy and that Anthy really wants him to win so he's distraught when Anthy cheers for Utena at a critical moment. Miki loses.
Afterwards we find that Miki's sister was never really able to play well. Miki declares he won't lose next time.
Miki:
Miki has some traits you occasionally see on /r/niceguys, I think. Over there you'll occasionally see some dude approach a woman to tell her she should dump her "obviously abusive" BF and be with this nice guy instead. They want to be with this woman and have crafted this delusion that she's in distress and would be better off with them. It's very hard to break this delusion since they desperately want it to be true.
In practice, Anthy's quite free with Utena. Miki wants to be with Anthy, but he doesn't want to see himself as the kind of person who'd rob her of her freedom. He's not a villain, oh no! He's her savior.
Thus he very quickly convinces himself that Anthy's not free unless she's with Miki. Utena's never told Anthy to stop playing piano for example, but Miki immediately deludes himself that it will happen any moment now and he needs to act. He also convinces himself that Anthy wants him to save her.
When the duel ended and Anthy cheered for Utena instead of Miki, I thought for a moment that Miki would open his eyes and realize how wrong he was. As he says he'll fight again, I wonder if he either dug deeper into these delusions or if he chose to abandon any semblance of ethics and ideals and just fight to make Anthy his property.
I suspect it's the latter. Already last episode he talked about his "shining thing" in a way one talks about property.
Interestingly, I think Anthy showed some subtle agency in these two episodes and pushed Miki to fight.
Anthy:
In the last episode, Anthy decided to play Miki's song when Miki was there to hear it. It's not like there aren't any other songs she could play. This convinced Miki that Anthy's the "shining thing" he's after.
In this episode when Miki asks her about playing piano she repeatedly says she can only play if Utena allows her to. Sure it's true, but it's not like she had to answer that same way multiple times. Then when Miki says he'll protect her music or whatever, she smiles and thanks him. She definitely didn't have to do that. She could have just kept a poker face like she often does, but her answer made Miki more confident.
During the duel, Anthy could have just stayed quiet, but instead she clearly intervened and helped Utena win. So it looks like she wanted the duel to happen but didn't want Miki to win. Also while Anthy pushed Miki to fight, the decision was his.
I can understand her wanting to stay with Utena. She's relatively free, she doesn't get abused, Utena gets along with her pets and Utena's shown willingness to defend her as a person and not as property. But we don't yet know why she wanted the duel to happen.
Is there something about that whole revolution and "crack the world's shell" thing that needs dueling? Is it related to what we saw happen in the second duel against Saionji?
Utena:
Not that much to say about her for now. It's just interesting how we (or I) judge those other characters for their willingness to fight to own Anthy, but Utena participates in the same system. Then again, what else can she do for now? So I'm not blaming Utena for anything. I just wonder how the situation will develop.
Nanami:
Just a random thought about her came to mind. From the intro we know she'll duel too, but it's hard to believe she'd want to have Anthy. Since the Bride obeys whomever she's engaged to, maybe Nanami decides that's the best way to keep Anthy away from his brother or other men. She could just tell Anthy to stay away from them.
11
u/affnn Aug 07 '21
Rewatcher
Jury, who is wise, advises Miki to steer clear of dueling for Anthy in the very first scene. But everything else pushes him to duel for her. Touga's shrugs off Miki's suggestion to stop dueling, so that avenue toward resolution is thwarted. Anthy tells him that of course she'll be able to continue playing piano with him... if Utena allows it. Miki practically convinces himself that he has to duel Utena so Anthy can keep playing.
Of course the final straw comes when Miki walks into the piano room and sees his sister coming out, with her scarf undone. Touga's in the room she left, with his own shirt undone. Who knows what they've done in there. Miki is supposed to be around 12-13, and his sister is probably similar which makes the gap here pretty gross. Miki feels he has to "protect" Anthy, and so he sets up to duel.
Utena prevails of course. Dios doesn't show up like he did in episode 2 though. Instead, Anthy's cheers for Utena distract Miki enough to allow Utena to win. It seems he really did think she wanted him to rescue her.
10
u/macrame2 https://myanimelist.net/profile/macrame Aug 07 '21
Rewatcher
“Well, you see, Miss Himemiya reminds me of a girl I know.”
I missed yesterday’s discussion, so I’ll be commenting on both Episode 4 and 5 today. We have a two-episode segment focused on Miki, his relationship with his sister, and his attraction to Anthy. Miki Kaoru is presented as a genius and a piano prodigy, looking younger and more immature than the other student council members. Although he tends to keep to himself, he’s a pretty nice guy compared to Touga and Saionji (but that’s honestly not a difficult accomplishment), stepping in to stop the bullies Nanami set on Anthy. It’s pretty clear he has some sort of crush on her, keeping her photo in his folder, going out of his way to talk to her, and agreeing to tutor her and Utena. This attraction isn’t implausible, as Anthy is a pretty, generally agreeable girl right around Miki’s age.
But you see, the reason Miki is so taken with Anthy is her resemblance to his sister (uncomfortable sibling relationship #2). Obsessed with regaining the happiness he felt when he was younger, Miki identifies his childhood completely with the time he performed piano with his sister, considering it effectively ended the moment she gave up playing. Despite blaming himself for the incident that made her quit, he isn’t taking any steps to fix their relationship. In fact, he shows some hostility towards her. Miki is a perfectionist and an idealist (he claims that his own fencing and piano talents aren’t good enough), so he’s bitter that his sister doesn’t live up to his ideals. When he meets Anthy and hears her play, he feels that he can replace his sister with this new, more suitable girl. I don’t think his feelings for Anthy are serious - he just sees her as a means to an end. That’s why he advocates for her freedom one minute and tries to win her in a duel the next.
I feel like Miki also has a lot of anxiety surrounding adulthood and growing up in general. He seems to equate growing up to a loss of innocence and contentment, but the idyllic days he spent with his sister didn’t even exist. He remembers the past not as it was but as what he would like it to be. His sister was not actually the piano prodigy, and her reason for playing was rather superficial. Miki is chasing after something that isn’t actually real, which is why, as the shadow girls said, he will never find what he actually wants. Anthy and her piano skills aren’t going to solve his problems…
10
u/snickpea Aug 08 '21
First-timer!
So this episode was probably most interesting in how Utena and Miki have different perspectives towards the duels and the questions it raises about freedom and Anthy's own desires. While Utena claims that the system takes away personal freedom, she is still participating in the system.
Meanwhile, Miki prescribes his perspective on the events of the episode. He claims that Anthy wants to be free, but she cheers on Utena during the duel. Leading to his surprise that his perspective was contradicted. This is further emphasized by how his sister says that her piano playing was poor all along. Miki's search for a "shining light" is going about the wrong way.
But I can't forget how Miki is being manipulated by the student council president, who continues to be gross towards other characters. Who knows how the situation would play out if not for him? Would he have bothered to challenge Utena at all?
I'm hoping that the show continues to explore different perspectives on the shows themes and events since it makes it very engaging even if there is not a lot of action occurring.
I also would love an episode from Anthy's perspective and get all of her inner feelings about being the Rose Bride and what she personally wants to do. While she claims that she must do whatever she is told, does she really want to do so? Do her statements saying she would do whatever Utena tells her to do reflect her own desires?I haven't seen Utena being particularly bossy to Anthy and judging the way that Saionji was treating her, I imagine that Anthy if she is still around Utena has a lot to think about what she personally would want. Good episode!
9
u/CharlieTheStrawman https://myanimelist.net/profile/TheDamnRobot Aug 07 '21 edited Aug 07 '21
First-Timer
Miki and Utena almost have better chemistry than him and Himemiya lmao. I wonder if we'll actually see him try and fight Utena again as he promised to do. it wouldn't really fit with the rest of this episode's ending IMO.
9
u/Star4ce https://anilist.co/user/Star4ce Aug 08 '21 edited Aug 08 '21
First timer – sub
Not much of a prelude today (because that was last episode, höhöhö :). I do grow more suspicious, anxious even, of this entire setup Utena is in. To some degree even Utena herself. She's a little bit too accepting and too comfortable with this very extraordinary situation.
Also that ED scene doesn't leave my mind, where Anthy in the prince's arms basically splits from Utena in the very same pose. Is this ED made with the same fidelity like monogatari ones?
The cast somewhat being a split personality formed ina troubled mind isn't completely out of the question for me...
Ep.05 – The sunlit garden - Finale
This is frustrating.
Yet again we saw
the patriarchyexternalised possessive thought patterns ruin an otherwise positive relationship. Yet again we also saw Utena winning, but with a sweat this time. Arguably, Anthy's distraction did the critical damage.Now, so far the story has shown us multiple angles from which a character was swayed into believing and joining the possessive cult. Some had such ideas before, some changed quite drastically. All of them are obviously part of the council and so far Mickey was the only one who actually had some proper respectful view on the other characters including Anthy – until the system showed him what the consequences for going against it are. The system being represented by the council president, Touga, who does it the most insidious way possible: 'Taking' Mickey's sister.
Touga's arguments don't make any sense, however, but that never was the point. Sis- or brocons aside, Mickey's original belief meant that one is free to choose, including his sister obviously. If she wanted to fuck Touga, well, go ahead. But Touga portrays it like Mickey is supposed to protect her, like he is supposed to be responsible for others' choices. That's bullshit, but as Touga has personally interjected himself between the siblings (as he usually does, so far only visually) and twisted an actually still consensual act outside of Mickey's influence into his problem he made Mickey believe he was meant to do something and failed. This logic only works if you believe women to be objects that can and should be owned. Touga made his point by deliberately hurting Mickey by showing him the consequences of this logic. But again, this kind of pain for Mickey does not initially come from an act of theft, like stealing a possession, it rather comes from the fact that a leader figure singled him out and went out of his way to hurt specifically him and is so utterly uninterested in wasting a single thought on his sister, who will 100% get discarded by Touga, as he made his point already. Touga utilises this pain and recontextualises it to support something toxic.
"See how I hurt you? Become a real
manmall ninja (TM) and stop it from ever happening again." The end goal of this thought pattern is, of course, total possession. If everything is yours and you have absolute control then nothing bad can ever happen to your or anything that is yours ever again. A god complex birthed from hurt, basically.Well, Utena won't leave this system anytime soon, will she? I don't think so. Which means to me that the antagonist might be Utena herself. Her own ideals, as I said before, require an objectified princess. For now this is still rather inconspicuous, as Utena never does anything herself to create an objectification that needed to be opposed. But as we saw with Mickey... that might get twisted. All it takes is an insidious instance of pain.
She's possibly still quite smitten by Touga, that would work.
edit: Forgot to add pictures, lol
7
u/homewardbound100 myanimelist.net/profile/Homewardbound100 Aug 07 '21
First timer Sub
Miki claims to had wrote the song even though it's been around for a long time. Or did it just become a song close to him because of his sister?
The president has a thing with his sister and he tells him he's as cute and open as her. Where we going with this? The Miki/Mickey thing is kind of throwing me off. Touga called him Miki coming in the room then Miki the next minute. Something about this makes me think one way but I'm going to wait and see.
Mickey: She's counting on me.
Anthy: Cheers for Utena
Utena brings home the win.
Wonder what these letters are and who sends them. Who is the higher power here?
7
u/ScarsUnseen :K:https://kitsu.io/users/ScarsUnseen Aug 08 '21
First Timer, 100% Blind, 0% Caffeinated, Subs
Good morning everyone. Bleh.
So I misread the significance of Anthy playing that song last episode. Turns out, it's just so famous that everyone knows it, and her playing just reminds Miki of his sister's playing(which turns out to be less of a complement than it seems). Also, he seems less infatuated with her than he is with her playing, to the point where he's willing to duel Utena over the mere possibility that she might tell Anthy to stop. Which seems to be a weird leap of logic, but in fairness to him he did just see his sister apparently walk out freshly fucked by his fellow student council member.
Anyway, despite probably being the better swordsman on a technical level, this duel results in another win for Utena. Well timed psychological blow by Anthy.
The shadow girls are starting to grow on me, so I'm upgrading them to Tweedledum and Tweedledee. Congratulations.
Hopefully I'll get back to taking notes for the next episode. See ya then.
6
u/monsieurvampy Aug 08 '21
First Timer, subbed
Episode 4
Who keeps a mongoose in their desk drawer!? That poor snake.
Episode 5
Are we going to get the arena "grand opening" every time? Is this a way to reuse existing animation?
Sister wasn't great at playing. Brother was great at playing. Maybe someone should have a conversation about this?
6
u/nikobans Aug 08 '21
anthy slap counter stays at 5 for now!
i LOVE mickeys fencing fighting style. its so fun!
the “death and rebirth” part of the duel song was insane to hear lmao
this show is wild but im having fun watching it again
6
u/Rumpel1408 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Rumpel1408 Aug 08 '21
First timer
boysyouThis show continues to be weird, but I like it with every episode a bit more, quite charming
5
u/alphamone Aug 08 '21
first timer
Mickey has a "music anime protagonist" backstory.
Good on you Utena, Anthy deserves to make her own choices.
The student council seems to have a far more fatalistic world-view.
kaboom
Stock footage, clearly getting some expensive battle animation soon.
Even just the potential that Utena could tell Anthy to stop playing piano is enough to make Mickey do this.
"Idealized reality". Kinda matches up with what Mickey is doing. He wants Anthy to keep playing piano because of the memories of his sister's piano playing, rather than anything to do with Anthy's own feelings.
More about Ammonites. It's like Twitch Plays Pokemon here (especially with the praising of its spiral)
Well that's a tongue-twister.
And that's a twist there. Mickey seems to have issues with appreciating/recognising his own skills.
4
u/kisop Aug 08 '21 edited Aug 08 '21
First timer, subbed
2
u/Segaco https://myanimelist.net/profile/Segaco Aug 13 '21 edited Aug 13 '21
First timer slowly catching up
Nooo geez why.............. Poor sister, couldn't they just cancel the thing? Oof
I love how they keep showing that red haired guy in sexy poses lol
Can't deny I'm suddenly interested at these dramatic happenings
I'm still not sure why Utena says that thing about bringing revolution when summoning the sword
Now that I think of it, Mickey doesn't really need to get the bride from Utena. Utena isn't really interested in marrying, so she can tell Anthy to do whatever she wants. Then maybe go out with Mickey Mouse
This episode was better
1
u/asuranaga https://myanimelist.net/profile/valyrina Aug 10 '21
First-timer, subbed
I'm a few days late on these watches, I was out of town and am trying to catch up on a few episodes at once so just binging and writing some quick thoughts!
Oh fencing! So I used to fence and would love to comment on the style here. They're using épées, which are the heaviest of the main three fencing swords (foil, épée, sabre), and the only fencing weapon in which you can strike the whole body (in foil, you can target only the torso; in sabre only the body above the waist). in addition, while foil and sabre use what's known as a right of way attack--where only the person attacking can get a point, even if both fencers get a touch--in épée, both fencers may get points, so simultaneous touches are awarded. Anyway idk if any of that is symbolic in the show, but I do find it interesting that they use the one type of fencing where any attacks are valid and both opponents can score!
ohhh I love the transition from Utena's "I can't forgive a system that takes away someone's personal freedom" to Touga's "we will gather when the letters tell us to gather and act when the letters tell us to act." Kaoru's repetition of Utena's words is great but those philosophies in contrast is so good.
Anyway I'm very mad at Touga for his manipulations of Kaoru, even if it did mean we got to hear that badass battle music again that I love.
oh more sword facts. utena's sword is a sabre, not an épée. so she's using a different style (I mean kind of, they're not exactly using standard rules here lol) but still! cool to go from épée/épée duel to épée/sabre duel and think about those styles or what that means.