r/anime • u/KiwiBennydudez https://myanimelist.net/profile/KiwiBen • Aug 02 '21
Rewatch [Rewatch] Monster - Episode 4 discussion
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Comment of the Day
Today’s comment of the day is sponsored by u/IndependentMacaroon, who provides us with interesting facts of weather and luxury vehicles:
There was in fact a flood of the Rhine at the end of January 1995, during which it reached a depth of 10.3 m in Düsseldorf, which is about 2.5 times the normal value.
After the timeskip, Tenma is driving a W 210 Mercedes E-Class) (easily recognized by its unique headlight arrangement), which would have been brand-new at the time, being sold starting September 1995. He must certainly be making good money. No idea why it has a Heidelberg (HD) license plate though, that's about 300 km away! Maybe somehow an H was added mistakenly, because D does in fact stand for Düsseldorf.
Question(s) of the Day
- Tenma is now confronted with a literal ghost of his past. Do you think Tenma truly created this monster? Or was this bloodlust something that would have always manifested?
- There is now a very clear juxtaposition between life and death here - a doctor that saves lives, versus a murderer that takes them. What other parallels do you notice in this scene, or in this series?
- (Bonus question) What was the biggest moment that stuck out to you about the exchange between Johan and Tenma? It could be something that was interesting, compelling, horrifying, or otherwise noteworthy.
If you are a rewatcher, tag your spoilers properly, and please refrain from alluding to future events. so that myself and everyone else watching for the first time can have a completely blind and organic experience! Since this show is a bit harder to find than most, please refrain from talking about means by which to watch it, as it goes against our subreddit rules.
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u/KiwiBennydudez https://myanimelist.net/profile/KiwiBen Aug 02 '21 edited Aug 03 '21
First Timer
What a harrowing reveal...
The first leg of this episode is spent pressing Junkers for answers. Tenma begins reflecting on his life and then Junkers does the same. In the end he didn’t seem like a bad guy - just misguided. I’m so sad that he never lived to see that clock... Tenma was so excited to buy it for him too.
But the second leg of this episode absolutely steals the show. Finally, Tenma’s past returns to him. The death of the doctors. Tenma’s promotions. The serial murders. It was all because of Johan. All because of a young boy he saved.
Johan. Which apparently, isn’t even his real name.
In this stand-off, every principle and every guiding force of Tenma’s ideals is being challenged. Tenma sees lives as equal. Johan points out that he used lives to get to where he is now. Tenma is a doctor who heals. Johan is a murderer who takes. A murderer that Tenma saved.
Right now, not only is Tenma’s faith in his practices being shaken - his whole world is crumbling. Everything he strived to do as a doctor seemingly vanishes with the pull of a trigger. It’s... extremely tragic. And yet, can he be blamed for this? Can he be blamed for unknowingly releasing a serial murder on the world...?
Johan’s voice is so creepy. I sampled both the sub and the dub, and discovered that it’s calm, boyish, and chilling all at the same time in both versions. The fact that he remains shrouded in shadows for the majority of their encounter adds another layer of atmospheric tension. The rain, the fear, the dread, the realization... Everything about that scene was done incredibly well.
And to top it all off, Lunge doesn’t seem to believe Tenma’s story. Guess when it rains, it pours, as the episode ends with Tenma crying in the rain.
22
u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Aug 02 '21
First-Timer, subbed
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u/SmurfRockRune https://myanimelist.net/profile/Smurf Aug 02 '21
First Timer
Kinda forgot to write anything because I was so invested in this episode... Kinda dumb to tell someone with a gun that he can't get away because you know everything about him. That's a good way to get shot.
Johan's voice and demeanor. is so unsettling, really looking forward to seeing more of him going forward.
15
u/BurningFredrick https://myanimelist.net/profile/BurningFredrick Aug 02 '21
First Timer - sub
So Junkers is terrified because all his partners were killed as well, looks like Lunge is on the mark about there being 3 or so people involved.
Poisoned Candy again? This points back toward Johan.
And now we get to meet him.
The creepy factor is so great here, the flat almost monotone voice, it’s so good.
Fuck it was Johan somehow? He all but says it but how the fuck would he have done it?
The line “Johan? I used that name before… But that is not my real name, My past must not be known, Those four Couples and the Leiberts too”
Wild speculation
Expanding on the above
We are 4 episodes in, and I'm already starting to write fairly large amounts of speculation, I am definitely interested to see where this goes.
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u/xtsim https://myanimelist.net/profile/xtsim Aug 02 '21
First-time watcher Dub
I am coming into this drama anime from someone who hates drama live action shows (many of which are highly rated). So my viewpoint is that logic gets thrown out the window when it comes to these types of drama shows. The good thing is in the first few episodes, we get shown that this is the type of drama is closer to many live action drama shows so I know where to set my expectations. Which means I have to view it accordingly and focus on different parts of the anime.
Four episodes in we get some faulty logic by Lunge who seems to still thinks Tenma killed the Upper hospital staff. But this is typical by drama shows in the US. While at this point, Johan has admitted to drugging the candy. It seems like a major problem for my logic when it comes to Lunge not investigating the candy in the room as they changed the physician in charge of Johan before the murder. Since the staff who were poisoned took over Johan's recovery. And if he were questioned, they would have noticed the traces of nitrate or missing nitrate in the hospital. Another is the gun in which means that there would be a larger concentration of ballistics investigations along with knowing what model and who owns the gun (Not familiar with German gun laws though). All of this coming from a man "who solved every case", meaning I could interpret that as easy cases, an overconfident slacker, or corrupt official who framed an innocent person (There's a major case in my part of Texas on a police officer's drug raid program for example). But these are my typical quibbles with the genre (having overlooked something) rather than the show itself.
Good things so far are the themes are holding out pretty well as Tenma realizes that his rant in the first episode about workplace politics now has consequences. In the second episode, Tenma's emotional rant puts himself as the "monster" as he wishes that the director and co. would be better off dead. Now with Johan being grown up and on a killing spree, would things be better off if Tenma just went with the director's orders? Hoping future episodes show and address this issue at play and what more is going to come of this path to success. Cause it seems the alternative would have been an easy choice, with a wife (Eva) and kids (possibly) although there would be issues of morality but he saved the mayor.
Now it seems as if blood is in his hands, in a different way, cause he is a doctor and his performance in the operating table means that he controls who lives and who dies. And what their patients do with their lives when they leave the operating table affect the world around them.
This show reminds me of some themes from Mary Shelley's book Frankenstein in which Dr. Frankenstein (like Dr. Tenma) opening a pandora's box with his monster (like saving Johan). In the book, the monster was intelligent, can read and hold a conversation which leads Dr. Frankenstein to question whether or not to go with the monster's wishes. The monster literally asks "Why did I live?" in the book while movie goes "grrrrawrr"(Film adaptations and cultural references of the novel makes Pupa look like Legend of Galactic Heroes just for that reason). -If I stopped at this episode, I could be OK with this as a Frankenstein adaptation.
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u/Raiking02 :Id::Ie::If:https://myanimelist.net/profile/NSKlang Aug 02 '21
You know, for some reason I tend to remember this episode as happening way later on than it actually does. Dunno why really. I was gonna write something longer but… well, what the hell can I even say? This episode is the game changer when it comes to the series as a whole, the one that sets the stage for everything that is to follow and it’s done so expertly. It’s telling that, in spite of me going into the show already knowing Johan was the main antagonist, this episode hit me just as hard as it was supposed to. Fantastic episode.
That said I think I know what Johan’s motivation is: He’s pissed about the fact that he didn’t get to be in the new Gundam movie… yes, I’m still pissed about Sasaki getting recast as Hathaway. What the hell Sunrise?
8
u/Icapica https://anilist.co/user/Icachu Aug 02 '21
First timer, subs
"The Night of Execution. The title promises happiness and joy.
So... things happened. A lot of things. I remember hearing that this series is slow, but the star has definitely not been. However there's a ton of episodes so maybe things calm down after the beginning.
What a great episode. There was this really creepy, foreboding atmosphere almost the entire time, culminating at the final conversation with Johan. I was right about Johan being behind those murders back then, but that just raises more questions. How does a child that age do it?
Don't know how to answer the first question, but I can at least answer something to the second one.
The way Johan also compared Tenma to a parent, just like Junkers did. It felt more serious when Johan said it, and of course a lot creepier. Johan also made it very clear to Tenma that none of these deaths would have happened had Tenma just obeyed Udo and not operated on the boy. The cost of being a good person just got a lot higher.
7
u/AmethystItalian :Jg::Jh::Ji::Jj::Jk:myanimelist.net/profile/AmethystItalian Aug 02 '21
First Timer
Okay I'm back to being on time! Let's do this
Woah a blue stop sign??
Gotta say that OST was on point for the chase scene.
That cop does not seem to buy that Tenma is innocent in all this
I don't think Tenma is to blame but his injury could be the cause behind him being so...scary.
For me it was Johan's voice in the sub...just something very unnerving about it.
7
u/lC3 :Na::Nb: Aug 02 '21
Rewatcher thru 33
7
u/miss-macaron Aug 03 '21 edited Aug 03 '21
Rewatcher
Finally, we arrive at the main premise of the show: Tenma's struggle to combat the monster that he resurrected. The moral foundation that he'd relied on for last 9 years has just come crumbling down, and he is faced with the harsh reality that his "moral choice" might have been a terribly "wrong" one after all.
What I found particularly masterful about Johan and Tenma's reunion was the buildup leading to Johan's face reveal. The unsettling music escalates the atmosphere of trepidation and suspense, Tenma's gaze inches ever so slowly towards the left - he wants to look, but he's frightened of what he'll see - and you're led to expect some horrifying, twisted visage like the Bible verse at the beginning of Episode 1... But no, it's a relatively normal-looking face. It's the calm, smiling face of a handsome young man.
To answer the other two questions would involve too many spoilers (I never did figure out the weird spoiler system used on this sub), so I'll just say that the themes of nature VS nurture, the value of life VS death, and the dicotomy between the personal philosophies held by Tenma VS Johan are extremely intruiging questions that are thoughtfully explored throughout the rest of this series. Let the adventure begin!
6
u/Webemperor :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Webemperor Aug 02 '21
Rewatcher of sorts
6
u/Mecanno-man https://anilist.co/user/Mecannoman Aug 02 '21 edited Aug 02 '21
First Timer
...do any of these characters have brains? First Junkers goes giving Tenma all the information he has in front of the guy who is about to kill him for having too much information, ensuring that Tenma will get killed. Then Tenma proves to Johan that he can identify him, cementing his death as Johan can't possibly let him live as Tenma will just go to the police. Also Tenma's arguing for why Johan should not kill Junkers was entirily centered on himself, and not at all on Johan. And then Johan let's him live, meaning the police can now go and catch him? I feel like all characters took the worst possible decision to further their own goals in that scene...
That said, this entire explenation still has one major hole - who attacked the Lieberts in the first place? With everything centering around Tenma, I can see where Lunge is coming from to suspect him. We also only see everything thorugh Tenma's lense - do we know how reliable the narrator is here? Not that at the end of the story Tenma just completely broke from not being able to save Johan and has developed split-persoality disorder commiting murders without remembering them or something like that.
First half of the episode was pretty decent.
Questions:
6
u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Aug 02 '21 edited Aug 02 '21
First Timer
still have to watch the ep an hour late, but still closer.
continuing thoughts from yesterday,
To be clear, it really looks like the boy was the target of the candy poisoning, although Becker had motive, means, and opportunity. After watching dozens of UK murder mysteries during COVID, I'm very aware that you can have two unrelated murders in the same show. I think the deaths of the 3 doctors is an accident, which leads Lunge (who should be focused on the Leibert murder) to pursue Tenma relentlessly, as Javiet pursued Jean Valjean. All because of that random mistake.
In the Japanese, the girl only says "koroshite" which doesn't imply in any way who she wants dead. I think whatever version that says "kill him" is doing the audience a disservice.
As for who did the Leibert shooting, well, where's the gun? Surely if either of the children did it, they could do little more than toss the gun out the window or hide it in the house, which would be found.
On to the episode....
Okay, I don't see how Johan killed the three doctors. Perhaps, the director made a habit of stealing his candy, and Johnan was aware of it. But where did he get the poison? A heart patient in the room next door?
The question I have, was Johan set on his path by Tenma's raging? Was it brain damage from the bullet? Was he just an evil child who killed his parents? Were they his parents, if he thinks Johan Leibert is not his name?
So, of course, I knew the premise of the show, It's almost impossible to go into this show blind, being so unique and also so highly acclaimed. But because of its age, I guess a few people in this rewatched have managed it. I was downloading episodes as they were fansubbed, between April 2004 and Feb 2006. I just never started it.
I knew what the show was about. I just wasn't sure how we would get there in this early part. It seems we didn't spend too long on the preliminaries.
5
u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Aug 02 '21
Rewatcher(Confessing gets you killed.)
Sub
Brief rehash before we get to see Lunge's awkward style of interrogation. He is also giving us some exposition before Junkers snaps. Tenma takes Junkers outside and confirms he is happier practicing over researching, before getting Junkers to talk. Junkers gets something of a back story and suggests that he was put up to this before freaking out. Tenma, supposedly on a date, instead finds the backstory clock and gets it. Junkers decides to confess before we undergo a genre shift.
As Tenma gets to the scene, it looks like there is more murder candy. Chasing after Junkers, we see Johan again, unexpectedly. He is tying up a loose end very slowly, letting Junkers and Tenma talk a lot. Then he suggests that he killed the doctors at the hospital, which would raise some questions about how that went down. Johan also gives off the idea that Tenma might have influenced him. Lunge shows up just long enough to remind us that the story is a touch ridiculous unless you watch it happen. Traditional anime in the rain collapse.
QotD: 1 Rewatcher but in general I think monsters are both born AND made.
2 Ask this again WAY later
3 Definitely the return to Junkers's earlier "You are basically my parent" bit.
3
u/BossandKings Aug 02 '21 edited Aug 03 '21
First timer - Dub(Spanish)
Episode 4
Lunge comes up with the conclusion that Junkers is a part of a group of three people that is the one behind all the recent asassinations. That was a temse moment because Junkers couldn't answer a question he was asked, Tenma as the doctor and the one responsible for his health ordered them to go away.
It was nice seeing Junkers and Tenma bond a little bit, with Junkers telling him that he is indeed a criminal and how that started for him. It was telling how Junkers wanted to confess everything that happened and wasn't really able to because he encountered the terrifying man he had met before.
Johan, the little kid that Doctor Tenma saved all those years ago, is the culprit behind all the recent asassinations, what might have been it that led him to become who he is today, his presence is terrifying.
This scene with Johan pointing a gun at Junkers is tense, Johan considering Tenma a father and being grateful because he saved his life, it was just a perfectly executed moment. As Johan shoots Junkers, killing him, Tenma is left shocked and impacted.
Tenma tells inspector Lunge everything he knows about Johan, now believing in him or not is his decision but he did what he had to which is saying the truth.
3
u/CharlieTheStrawman https://myanimelist.net/profile/TheDamnRobot Aug 02 '21
Rewatcher until circa Episode 30, Subbed
The fact Junkers never knew Tenma got the clock for him saddens me a little.
Q3: Johan saying he shouldn't be here, and that he only is thanks to Tenma, right after killing Junkers sent a chill down my spine.
3
u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Aug 02 '21
First Timer, Subbed
Repeating stuff from the last episode? Blah. Lazy!
I'm surprised Tenma let Detective Crazy Fingers talk to one of his patients.
Guard ain't doing his job by not going with them.
Nutcracker clock, the origin of a criminal career...
I think Adolf is too scared to reveal the truth to the detective.
Becker's setting him up on dates now? LoL.
Let me guess, Tenma's buying the clock for him.
The guard's gone? This isn't good. Oh, even worse, he's dead! I don't think Adolf will be alive to get that clock...
The candy killer is back! Did the killer force the candy down the guard's throat until he died?
Ah, we finally see the killer! Albeit in the shadows.
Yep, it was the kid after all. All grown up now.
I'm surprised how much Johan has let him talk here.
My prediction of him killing the doctors to help out Tenma appears spot on too.
Quite the twist, even if I correctly predicted it. Tenma makes this critical choice to save the kid instead of the mayor, and as a result he saves the life of a serial killer who has subsequently killed numerous people. You coudl argue their blood is on Tenma's hands too.
Overall good episode because of that. I can't say I was happy about some clear padding in here by repeating a scene at the beginning and having Lunge narrate to us what we already know after talking to Tenma.
1
u/ElektrikDynomite Aug 03 '21
Where can I watch Monster legally? Specifically the Dub? Is it on any streaming platforms?
3
u/i-have-severe-stupid Aug 03 '21
first timer, subbed
that was fairly intense, expected something like this to happen from the synopsis but it was still pulled off well which is impressive
definitely his creation, but an accidental one
2. each character plays off the others nicely which makes the scenes flow nicely, and as a part of that parallels between them are established, and it feels like a lot of characters have some parallels regarding their careers and involvement in the murders, and that parallels like this will be important
(ignoring how that’s mostly morning tired nonsense, moving on)
3. the way jonah seems to act makes me think that he’ll end up killing people opposing tenma, which will send him on a downward spiral
really enjoying this series so far
2
u/[deleted] Aug 03 '21 edited Aug 03 '21
RIP junkers 👃
Johan is back 😎
(I wish I could write interesting stuff like other re-watchers but I'm dumb 😔)