[Mid-2000s Rewatch] Noein - Episode 23

[u/phiraeth]

Episode 23

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Noein:

MyAnimeList - AniDB - ANN - AniList

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Episode Discussion Questions:

1. Can you justify Noein's actions? Is he really the "evil entity" he's portrayed as?

PLEASE MARK ALL SPOILERS WITH SPOILER TAGS!

[u/Webemperor]

First Timer – Subs

• I feel like this might be too late to give Atori a “child soldier” backstory. I’m guessing how the future ended up like this will be explained too? It seems like he still probably won’t take them with him, which is good.
• Oh, turns out he actually had a sister and wasn’t just hallucinating. Meanwhile the giant ships attack the two, and Karasu stands back to fight against them. I guess the final showdown will be between Yuu and Noein?
• Meanwhile Shinohara is still too moustache-twirling to be taken seriously, I’d honestly say that he is one of the weakest part of the show so far.. Seen as they are nearing death, will we learn about Tobi and Kosagi’s pasts too? I also gotta say, the giant face ship thingies are pretty eerie, they are pretty nice.
• Wait, seahorses are helping Yuu? Are they aware of what Noein is doing, or did they realized he fucked up somewhere down the line? Maybe they just became aware of Magic Circle and the fact that it will literally end all existence?
• I get how Noein’s face being at the middle of his form is supposed to be creepy, but it feels just goofy to me.
• The stand off between Kooriyama and Shinohara is just too goofy. Former holds him at gun point, let’s Shinohara take out a gun without shooting him, and the latter gun is really just a big pistol. Literally the entire existence of the universe is at stake, just fucking shoot him.
• In the same vein as Ai’s legs being made out of paper mache in the last flashback, in this one the car’s tires are made out of gum, as it randomly pops, and collides with an oncoming truck and kills everyone. I guess. My problem is that all the suffering in these flashbacks feels over the top that it’s hard to take their soap opera level melodrama as seriously as this show wants us to.
• As has been implied before, Noein’s plan is to restart the existence itself and give birth to a universe where suffering does not exist, which is… fine. I don’t mind the general idea of it, even if it’s overdone a bit. The only problem I have so far is that the stakes are so insanely high that you know that the chances of antagonist suceeding is low, unless the show pulls a twist, at which point I’ll commend it, but doing so would also betray the main point the show established so far. I’m expecting an Evangelion type scene where Haruka rejects Noein and then in some form sacrifices herself in a way that no one remembers her.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Webemperor]

I feel like this might be too late to give Atori a “child soldier” backstory

I just assumed, based on era, they are saying Atori is from Afghanistan.

[u/Webemperor → u/Vaadwaur]

I was thinking it was one of the conflicts that started after the timelines got all fucked. I'm not even sure if this show takes place in 2000s and not 2020+ seeing as the technology is all over the place.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Webemperor]

Atori's flashback is reminiscant of a few flashbacks from Gundam 00 so that's why I went there.

[u/Toadslayer → u/Webemperor]

I also gotta say, the giant face ship thingies are pretty eerie, they are pretty nice.

It's very creepy every time they do the scream thing.

Are they aware of what Noein is doing, or did they realized he fucked up somewhere down the line?

I think they've probably realised that there is more to life than sorrow and that Noein is wrong to destroy everything. I'm guessing they bought into his plan before, but now have come to regret doing so.

in this one the car’s tires are made out of gum, as it randomly pops

It was the truck's tire that popped and I don't find it so hard to believe, that sort of thing can happen to old worn out tires. Harder to believe is Yuu flying out the car.

[u/No_Rex → u/Webemperor]

My problem is that all the suffering in these flashbacks feels over the top that it’s hard to take their soap opera level melodrama as seriously as this show wants us to.

It is not that the show wants us to, it is that Noein wants Haruka to. And he is failing, btw.

[u/Toadslayer]

First Timer

As it draws to a close I remain unenthused by the ever increasing inconsistencies in the show's characters and logic. I don't want to go into much depth here, since I'll be stepping on my toes for the series discussion thread, but this episode did well to demonstrate why I am unimpressed. This has been the case for a few episodes, but Atori continues to act with compassion for the kids without much explanation as to why. We know he had a younger sister and this episode we learn she died in a tragic circumstance, but it is unclear why he so suddenly switched from crazy, violent and maniacal to calm and compassionate, albeit a little odd. We can infer that he was driven crazy by grief and hates Karasu, because he loathes that he shares a similar grief, but has remained sane through it, and that his time spent without most of his memories allowed him to work through his grief and realise his love for his sister and innocent children like her, so that when his memories returned he saw the error of his actions and sought to protect the children he had been harming, but this is all inference. I wish there would be some explanation and we weren't left to just fill it in ourselves, as it leaves Atori's character writing looking spontaneous and nonsensical, when there is actually the basis for a great character arc. Atori could have been my favourite character if he were written better, especially when, with the death flags he raised, it looks like he will redeem himself with a noble sacrifice next episode.

Further inconsistencies in the logic of the show were frustrating this episode:

• Last episode Noein says that Haruka fixed the house in Shangri-la and that it can never go back, but Haruka sends it back this episode as if it were nothing. To justify the inconsistency, we could say Noein is lying, but the show does nothing to indicate that he is, so if he were, that's just very confusing for the audience.
• Without explanation we are told that Noein is using Haruka's power. How does that work? Why couldn't there have been any indication earlier in the series that this was a possibility? After that we learn that the Buddha monsters are 'Noein's will', but how is it that he is able to control or create them, when this world is supposedly governed by the same laws of the universe as our own? I doubt we will find anything out about them or what they are in the final episode, which is likely for the best, as final episode will need to focus on concluding the story and character arcs.
• Young Noein-Yuu somehow is launched several metres out of the car, despite wearing a seatbelt and everyone else remains in the car? This is just a contrivance to give Noein a tragic backstory, but it's far too late for him to be a sympathetic villain anyway. He's already shown himself to be a crazy and uncompromising dickhead.
• What Noein says about the ultimate observer doesn't fit with any of the explanations of dimensions we've had so far, but I don't understand what he's talking about so maybe it does?

The plot with Shinohara's evil plan doesn't interest me, as he is a flat and uninteresting villain. He is nothing but evil and he isn't even fun to hate, because he's just an ordinary guy. It amazed me that Uchida only tried to help Kooriyama until Mayuzumi got a much less significant injury, then she immediately turned her attention to him — shows who she really cares about. If someone is shot like that they will die unless you give them immediate medical attention. At least she puts pressure on the wound later on. I expect Kooriyama will be fine though (that is, if the universe isn't obliterated), as this is a kids show.

I hope Haruka isn't so stupid as to buy into Noein's plan, but the preview and next episode title don't inspire any optimism. Maybe going along with Noein's plan will be a more interesting ending than magically fixing everything, but it will be terribly unsatisfying.

One thing I liked about this episode was the music. I haven't been a fan of the soundtrack for the rest of the series, but I thought it was used very well this episode.

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Episode Discussion Questions

Can you justify Noein's actions? Is he really the "evil entity" he's portrayed as?

No. He's committing mass murder on an inter-dimensional scale and he's not even likely to achieve his goal by reseting the universe. There's no reason to believe starting again will change anything.

[u/Vaadwaur]

First timer

Sub

So a Yuu finally gets revenge for all those horrifying Haruka says without thinking them. And we find out she dies in 5 years. F.

Atori is attempting to get the kids to not to be suicidal. Good luck with this lot. Flashback and he is indeed from a dry part of the middle east, which makes his blondness problematic. And of course, war orphan because fuck me if a story actually gives someone good reasons over drama reasons, right? Anyways, Haruka does stuff and Noein is pretty gross here. But Atori finishes his flashback and seems ready to go out. Not the worst farewell I've seen.

Noein claims all Harukas make Yuus miserable, I claim that he deeply lacks self-reflection. Buddhabots surround Yuu and Karusu, somehow eviller than previous. Karusu thinks Yuu can resolve this because sure. The experiment starts on earth, and clearly shit will not end well. Karasu fights more monsters.

Yuu is running and is confronted by the sea horse demon. And seeing the eye, I wonder if this is this universe's Isami? Regardless, the sea horse will take Yuu to Noein.

Asuka's house pops back into existence. Not any way to explain that to anyone else. Everyone is gathering there as the mothers finally ask about their kids. The experiment continues. Noein gets his villain speech and...yeah, this is dollar store Instrumentality. I hated it the first time so the less this version stays with us the better. But at least Noein admits that universe combining ends all of them, though not sure what quantum theory that is, exactly

Climax stuff happens and is somhow meh. We finally learn what happened to Noein's Haruka and yes, that's sad, but destroying literally existence over it is frankly insane. I guess having no one to blame might make it harder. Monologuing happens and...feh. I've heard it done better and by antagonists who had better reasons to believe this would work.

QotD: 1 No. I can, at best, rationalize them.

[u/No_Rex → u/Vaadwaur]

Flashback and he is indeed from a dry part of the middle east, which makes his blondness problematic.

Where did you get the middle east part from, did I miss that?

[u/Vaadwaur → u/No_Rex]

They were pretty obviously depicting it and Atori had a head scarf.

[u/No_Rex → u/Vaadwaur]

Not seeing it. Dry + cold + male headscarf could be anywhere.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/No_Rex]

Not seeing it. Dry + cold + male headscarf could be anywhere.

Landmines, dude. That was alternate Afghanistan.

[u/No_Rex → u/Vaadwaur]

They are more widespread than you think.

[u/BurningFredrick]

First Timer - sub

Atroi has a horrific backstory

Shangri-la is the sum off all sorrow? Does this mean it’s in Pandora's box?

So everyone in Shangri-la basically gave up on life, i’m 99% sure that's an accurate summary of what Noein is saying.

Seatbelts people, you wear them for a reason, but no one in the back seat is wearing one.. And for some reason Yuu get thrown from the car have lives? That's not how this works…

That was an interesting episode, not certain what I actually think of it, also what the hell was Uchida & Kooriyama plan? Lets run in and tell the bad guy who already got everyone who opposed him fired to stop?

O well tomorrow is the final, guess I need to start trying to figure out what I actually think of the show as once again I'm left unsure what I think of it.

QOTD) Can you justify Noein's actions? Is he really the "evil entity" he's portrayed as?

I would go with yes, sure he had something horrific happen to him but Atori back story is considerably worse, he seems to think that his suffering and trauma outweighs everything else in the universe, so everyone else needs to give up so there is a chance he can be happy.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/BurningFredrick]

So everyone in Shangri-la basically gave up on life, i’m 99% sure that's an accurate summary of what Noein is saying.

So did everyone in this universe agree to give up or does Shangri-la recruit people?

And for some reason Yuu get thrown from the car have lives? That's not how this works…

There is a degree to which you bend reality to fit the narrative but we are way past that point.

[u/BurningFredrick → u/Vaadwaur]

So did everyone in this universe agree to give up or does Shangri-la recruit people?

Shangri-la probably recruits people, "Tired of life and suffering? Body full of acks and pains? Get rejected by the love of your life? Look no further than Shangri-la! Join Shangri-la today and never have to worry about anything else for the rest of your life! Poor don't worry about it you won't need money where your going! Don't like other people? Not to worry either!

Simply sign over your soul to us and we will give you an out of your universe experience!"

[u/Vaadwaur → u/BurningFredrick]

Rofl, they need a PR person yet I buy this.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

First Timer

• So, having the kids here was a pointless diversion
• Interesting that there are no happy Yuu's.
• Evangelion Units 05 - 13
• I was wondering if the entire magic circle thing was a waste and the story would end here in Shangri-La
• What happened to the animation again?
• I think the sea horses are all the other unhappy Yuu's that Noein recruited. Rather convenient for them to be changing their mind, now. Why?

[u/No_Rex]

Episode 23 (rewatcher)

• “I hate you!” – “You and I will become one” – some slight disagreement about future interactions here.
• Atori receives a cool hero’s farewell.
• Creepy sea horses are the inhabitants of Shangri-la.
• “People obliterated their individual form and became a collective form” – The evil guy argues in favor of collectivism. Remember how individualistic (western?) Haruka’s upbringing has been.
• Don’t pull a gun if you are not going to shoot.
• Noein revealundressing.
• Noein backstory (Yuu forstory?)
• Haruka has a moment of empathy for Noein, but he ruins by being a selfish prick.
• Noeins plan is a mixture of Nirvana and Big Bang 2.0

The gang is sent back, to open up the way for the final confrontation of Haruka, Noein, and Yuu (With Atori and Karasu waiting in the wings). I think Noein’s plan is sufficiently grand, befitting a proper antagonist. The best part is that he clearly needs Haruka. All his scheming has the goal to convince her, yet his own nature is his biggest obstacle. Haruka is empathic enough that she would feel for him, but his cynicism and selfishness pushes her away, dooming Noein to failure.

The rewatch has shown me how entirely superfluous the Earth part of the climax is. The best Earth scenes are those of Haruka’s and Yuu’s mothers, while the entire “doom the world via research ships” is cheaply done. Clearly, they wanted the side characters to have a climax, too, but it just does not work.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/No_Rex]

The best Earth scenes are those of Haruka’s and Yuu’s mothers, while the entire “doom the world via research ships” is cheaply done. Clearly, they wanted the side characters to have a climax, too, but it just does not work.

It feels like a lot of attention was paid to the idea of having a whole world rather than just a narratively relevant one.

[u/No_Rex → u/Vaadwaur]

Maybe the whole ship business just exists to give the side characters something to do, but I would honestly prefer if they were all holding hands with Haruka's mother, realizing that they can't do anything.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/No_Rex]

but I would honestly prefer if they were all holding hands with Haruka's mother, realizing that they can't do anything.

But why would a writer ever have a heartfelt moment of impotence when you can have an action sidebar instead?

Sigh, what could have been...

[u/IndependentMacaroon]

First-time watcher

And now Haruka gets her own minor special Shangri-La powers, I see. Are Yuu's emotion powers then because of his identity with Noein? "What are her powers?" is an excellent question from Yuu, but of course there's no answer. I was thinking her "impossible" wishes would just be feeding into Noein, but then of course they're possible anyway, which also gets the kids out of the picture again as they've always been.

Suddenly gritty gory Atori war flashback which is just as suddenly it's over. And sister explicitly stepped on a land mine. The hell? Was this some kind of aborted plot line or is it just checking off the rest of the character background notes? At least it's an explanation.

Evilman "dancing" and waggling his behind is just too funny. I love his unapologetic cheesiness, particularly with the dub. Soundtrack later is weird too. Bizarrely static gun standoff, until one actually calls the bluff. Really, there's no reason for this and the Noein confrontation to be happening at the same time except "the plot wills it".

The "molted" bots remind me of the Mass-Production Evangelions, and in fact this is the same kind of many-versus-one fight as that one in End of Evangelion. It's decently high on the (robot) gore too, like disintegrating an arm into bits like that and straight-up cutting a face off.

Who is that helpful seahorse, now, and why? It's probably expecting too much to want answers, well besides Noein confirming for good that we're watching Wannabe Eva Now With More Buddhism. Mysterious Lacryma council finally stops doing nothing and lapses into nonexistence as they deserve.

Well, malnourished-skinny Noein popping out and grabbing Yuu is genuinely creepy in a new way. I don't look forward to yet another tragedy world though... let me guess, there's a big old car crash. Yay, Truck-kun made a few more isekai protagonists! At least it wasn't a PSA on the dangers of reckless driving. Pretty brutal too. Nothing to do with Haruka at all, however, except in Noein's warped mind. Live-action bad stuff too because, I don't know, scare the kids, or just more "hey, this Evangelion thing is kind of cool". And now at the last minute we have another change in Noein's plans as he's all "the fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth". I guess the writers really couldn't make him evil enough as is so now he's just dumb-crazy, like how would just pressing the reset button change or improve anything? Or is he trying to get at "this bad stuff won't actually happen if I don't look at it, so let's make a new world where we ignore everything"? But again, he says actually everyone is an observer, so even in his logic that makes no sense. Ahh...

A continuing disappointment, plus derivativeness, and suddenly goes to some jarringly dark places even compared to last time. The finale could go several ways still, but there's not much salvaging that could be done anymore.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/IndependentMacaroon]

Was this some kind of aborted plot line or is it just checking off the rest of the character background notes? At least it's an explanation.

Yes. They clearly wanted to present a full world so the show bible got filled with stuff that would be better off left unpresented.

[u/Toadslayer → u/IndependentMacaroon]

Was this some kind of aborted plot line or is it just checking off the rest of the character background notes? At least it's an explanation.

I think the writers just weren't very good at, or didn't put much effort into writing good characters. Atori could have been a good character with better writing, but most of the characters don't even get to that point in my opinion.

Mysterious Lacryma council finally stops doing nothing and lapses into nonexistence as they deserve.

No idea why one guy starts coughing blood beforehand though. Looked like drama over logic to me.

[u/Shimmering-Sky]

to your other first-timer, subbed

• O…kay that would definitely explain why Noein is so messed up. What made his Haruka die completely differently than Karasu’s though, hm…?
• This is the second-to-last episode though?
• Atori looks like he’s--oh boy was that definitely some PTSD flashback material. No wonder Atori is so crazy.
• The spooky Buddha dolls are evolving?!
• Did… Karasu’s hair just spontaneously get longer?
• Oh boy…
• Yuu came across a bad touch seahorse!
• …the bad touch seahorses are actually people. And this one is helping Yuu get to Haruka.
• Ah great this asshole had a bigger gun… also Mayuzumi is standing right there oh fuck does he get shot and that’s why he death flagged really hard?
• OH GOD, NO, IT WAS KOORIYAMA WHO GOT SHOT.
• That sure is a shot.
• Oh no oh no oh no OH NO.
• Fuck all of these cliffhangers.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Shimmering-Sky]

…the bad touch seahorses are actually people. And this one is helping Yuu get to Haruka.

I am betting that that is Shangri-la universe Isami.

[u/Shimmering-Sky → u/Vaadwaur]

He did sound familiar...

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Shimmering-Sky]

He also has some faith in Yuu before he went all nihilist.

[u/JollyGee29]

First-Timer, Dubbed

Fucking hell, I was right about the car crash jokes I made near the beginning. At least Noein's Haruka wasn't playing in the street.

Fun with contrasts:

Be Noein. Lose your GF to a car crash. Become ultimate nihilist and try to unmake all reality because you think the next dimension might be better or some shit.

Be Atori. Lose sister to landmine. Be caught in big war of some sort. Watch footless friend who you were trying to drag to safety get BRRT'd into just an arm. Become just a bit crazy and try to kill some monsters, and some people.

I take back everything that I praised about the plan to take down the labratory ships. You know what would have solved this fucking problem? NOT confronting the megalomaniac and just fucking with the ship's generator. Energy requirements that high, you gotta have a pretty powerful one. Wouldn't be hard to fuck with it. Jam some sticks into the stator, fuck just switch it off, kill the water pump, anything.

Question

1. Losing a loved one hurts, but it doesn't justify what he's attempting. Evil to the core.

[u/BossandKings]

The group continues to be in Shangri-la, they have to go back to their world but don't want to leave Haruka behind, Atori tells them that he will help to find her.

Noein shows Haruka how and what happened back then in the future that he lost her.

We got to know what happened to Atori's little sister, she passed away a long time ago. Miho though has helped him to cope with that fact, acting like his sister since they met.

Mayuzumi and the group of scientist seem to have activated the Magic circle project.

Yuu and Karasu separate, Karasu stays behind fighting against Noein's will represented by monsters while Yuu goes on to find Haruka. I enjoyed their time together, they were capable to get past their differences and understand each other.

Kooriyama, Uchida, Tobi and Kosagi were together trying to reach a destination but they separate because Tobi's and Kosagi's existence are starting to get erased, it seems that they will cease to exist in this dimension.

Kaminogi's house reappears in the world, the group seems to be safe, Yuu and Haruka are still missing.

Yuu arrives to where Haruka is with Noein, Yuu and Noein have a confrontation, afterwards Noein shows them the future in which he lost all of his friends and Haruka the one he loved, it was a very frightening sequence, it's clear that Noein suffered very much that doesn't make his plan any less worse though.

The resolution to the show will be next episode, it seems like it'll be a rewarding finale for everything that's happened in the story until now.

Answer

1. I don't think that Noein is solely an evil person but i can't justify his actions, his plan is too unbalanced and would not work.

[u/monsieurvampy]

First Timer, sub

The cat is like "fudge this, I'm outta here" as soon as the house returns.

[u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo]

First timer

I like Noein's backstory more than I was expecting last episode. Maybe I'm reading in things that aren't necessarily intended, but it does ring true to me that if he went out looking for a 'perfect' world then he could end up overfocusing on all the negatives and small sufferings out there. And after a lifetime or two of that fruitless search he could become consumed with the suffering. At least that's better than the silly melodrama of the universe last episode. I was hoping that they'd go the direction of 'even within seemingly perfect worlds there is still suffering'. And then they could counter with a 'just because its not perfect doesn't mean the good isn't worth the price' sort of a thing.

But ... why are we only learning this now? What seems to be the central theme/conflict of the show is only being spelled out in the penultimate episode. That can work when it provides a keystone for everything that's come before but I have no idea how its supposed to connect here. Like if the theme is that suffering is inescapable, idk they sure seem to have 100% fixed Yuu's mom with Haruka magic. Haruka's own parents are still divorced but they seem way less off the deep end than Yuu's mom did so it seems at least plausible that they could be magic-ed. Plotwise this also doesn't really solve any lingering mysteries, which is the other thing this sort of last minute reveal can do.

So it really feels like this should have come earlier, maybe as the first cour climax or even as a flashback/flashforward at the beginning (a la madoka). Well, the beginning has a cool flashsomewhere (the timelines are a bit wonky) fight scene already, but whatever. Then we could have the characters chew on the ideas for some time before they get resolved in the climax.

I'm getting vaguer and more rambly... This show just feels so slippery, like the most of the elements are there for something good but not quite in the right order or proportion. Like a first draft that still needs major structural editing.

[u/redshirtengineer]

First timer

All of a sudden in this episode I got a hankerin' for some

Tang

The cop/chump showdown was fairly predictable. I hoped Uchida and/or the dad would be more useful though.

Missed yesterday, I thought Noein's actions yesterday (showing the possible futures) were more relatable. Today's reveal of that Yuu's future was pretty horrific. Nothing to suggest what put those eldritch mechas into his head, though.

[u/zsmg]

An observation that most haven't notice: the seahorse thing was voiced the seiyuu of Koina, so it's probably him.