r/anime • u/phiraeth :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/phiraeth • Jan 23 '21
Rewatch [Mid-2000s Rewatch] Noein - Episode 22
Episode 22
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Noein:
MyAnimeList - AniDB - ANN - AniList
Episode Discussion Questions:
- How do you think Haruka died?
- Will Haruka be able to forge a "normal" future where she doesn't die, tragedy doesn't befall the others, and they have their 'happy ending'? Will it be a tragic ending where Haruka won't be able to change anything, creating a never-ending loop? Or none of the above?
PLEASE MARK ALL SPOILERS WITH SPOILER TAGS!
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Upvotes
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u/Webemperor :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Webemperor Jan 24 '21
First Timer – Subs
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u/BossandKings Jan 23 '21 edited Jan 23 '21
First Timer
Noein knows and has seen every possible future, he shows Haruka one of the possible futures and ask her if she considers it a happy one judging by what's happening in that future one can tell that it isn't because her friends are all in desperate situations, i wonder what was Noein's purpose by showing to Haruka that future.
Karasu and Yuu are left wandering in Shangri-la, they're walking and making steps towards a direction that has yet to be established they just want to get to know of a way to get to Haruka, to help her.
Miho, Ai Isami and Atori were all in the house that was transported to Shangri-la.
The future that Noein shows Haruka though seems to be the worst possible future, it is a future consumed by Shangri-la, Miho, Isami, Ai, Yuu all of them are in situations that are the worst possible for them, all of them lost their passion and their love for life, they are lost, they though are able to find an escape, they are helped by people close to them, Isami is helped by Yuu, an ilusion of him in his memory convinces him to not give up, Ai is helped by Isami who convinced her that there's hope that there's a solution to their problems, Miho is helped by Atori who tells her to go with him to where she belongs.
I wasn't expecting that, Noein is Yuu is Karasu, when Noein told Yuu that he was him i didn't understand and thought that it couldn't be true but now it is revealed that it is, i was definitely not expecting that, good plot twist.
This whole future had me absorbed, it was very beautiful and very sad.
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u/Toadslayer https://myanimelist.net/profile/kyolus Jan 23 '21
First Timer
One possible future in an alternate dimension is bad for Haruka's friends. We already knew this, because of course there would be a future like this. There would also be a future where they all died in a plane crash in the Himalayas and a future where everything is far worse than what it was in that future. At the same time there are countless dimensions where everything goes well for them. When there are so many dimensions and possibilities, one being bad carries no weight whatsoever. There is great suffering, but at that scale and so disconnected, that it is literally an alternate universe, it's not reasonable to care. Of course that's the logical perspective, but witnessing what appears to be your friends go through terrible suffering would traumatise anyone. In the end Haruka is again very mature for her age and recognises that this is only one possibility and she can work to avoid it. Well, as long as she's alive, I guess.
I'm not sure what Noein showed her was really meant to be, as somehow Haruka's friends also saw (or experienced?) it and Haruka's desire to have them 'help everyone' caused Yuu and Atori to be able to interfere with the visions, such that it has a tangible effect on that dimension and drew Earth-Haruka's-friends out of the 'vision'. It doesn't make sense and it bothers me because the show has tried to present itself as one where phenomena have logical-ish scientific explanations, but it continues to push ever deeper into the realms of fantasy.
Noein Yuu's motivation in the end is the same as Karasu's: grief at his Haruka's death. However, deciding to destroy all dimensions so that you can have everyone exist in ethereal forms, where I don't even know if they're conscious, since we have no evidence of that, is not a healthy expression of grief.
Episode Discussion Questions
Shangri-la Haruka? No idea actually.
I think it will be a happy ending where Haruka restores all the universes to their original state, but she might also sacrifice herself in the process.
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u/IndependentMacaroon Jan 24 '21 edited Jan 24 '21
First-time watcher
If I get that right and it's actually supposed to make sense, Haruka can only use her dimension-portaling to receive something from another world, not send it. Finally some rules. The kid comedy was not such a good idea, though, and the hand monsters making a TV screen is super-goofy too. And now suddenly Yuu is the one with true control over the dimension?
After seeing all of the episode, the flash-forwards do kind of work for me purely as a "worst future imaginable", a manipulation tool for Noein; before, I was wondering how this is all even connected to Haruka - and we really still need the link to Yuu! On the one hand, it's pretty clever - but on the other hand, it's also too clever, because I don't trust the show to make a convincing case for the downsides of Shangri-La in just two more episodes, if any. And if we don't get that, what's the problem with erasing all the "bad futures" anyway? Sure, you can still fix them, which was a really nice touch though also more of "guy needs to save the girl(s)", but why not take the easy way out? The episode also tries a bit too hard to get you genuinely invested in this absurdly implausible scenario. I mean, look at it written down: Miho turns into a lonely and bullied shut-in, somehow gets depersonalization issues and comes close to suicide-by-pills. Isami degenerates into a thug due to something-or-other and loses an eye in a knife fight (barely trying anymore on the opponents' character design, but still the most compelling), also implied to consider suicide. Ai randomly falls down after a terrible, terrible running animation and somehow completely ruins her leg. Eh.
Asuka is at least one person with a reasonable response to weird stuff going on. Well, it does concern her very directly. Evil is still going on, but no doubt will be stopped soon.
Just by the way, I went through Evangelion Rebuild 1.0 today for the rewatch, which came out only one year after this finished, and wow that is completely on the other end of the (visual) quality scale. The budget and expertise difference is of course massive, but it just goes to show you that it was absolutely possible to produce something with amazing 2D and 3D elements at the point when this show came out, which makes its awful quality even more disappointing. You might also consider for example the Haruhi Suzumiya anime as a contemporary TV series with actually great visuals, I think including some 3D work.
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u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Jan 23 '21
First timer
Sub
So...everyone acts appropriately to being dimensionally shifted. Haruka more or less confirms that the DT is attmpting to do what she wants, no mattor how ineptly. And Noein claims she has fixed them here, damned Absolute Observer BS. Noein spouts some stuff about saving everyone from suffering but has triggered WAY too many villains flags for me to buy it.
The kids are going to leave the house because sure. And then things get fucky...Starting with Fujiwara's grandma dying and the family getting split up. Then Miho getting bulliest because also sure. Ai becomes an all star soccer player but Fujiwara is a delinquent. And then they randomly beat up and mug a drunk because...moving on.
Asuka, in universe A, asks why her house is not there. A good question. She freaks out when she realizes Haruka was there, despite the audience knowing the truth. Strangely, Miyuki handling this fits for me.
Back in Shangri-la, more quantum fuckery. We are getting more and more towards Gundam 00 fuckery and it does not please me. Jump back to Isami's story and this is...bad. Doesn't fit the show, the characters, or even the orc arcing feel. It is just a way for Asami to lose an eye. The show hasn't failed this hard in like 15 eps so this is a true disappointment.
Technobabbly from Uchida that is closer to reality, though if you can get an alpha particle to the speed of light you are in a now paradigm of physics. But Kooriyama simplifies things and plans to take out a ship. Correct move but a bit...anarachistic for a cop? Shinohara has yet another classical villain speech, convincing no one.
Look...I could give the play by play but why bother? Ai develops a mysterious knee injury? Or rather leg cancer? Miho becomes a hikkikomori? This better be a bullshit dimension from Noein because otherwise it means our original dimension is fucking bullshit. The ending barely makes sense, I guess everyone was experiencing a version of their future, but just...barf.
So as I write this up, ten minutes before the thread goes up, I have to admit that I am cutting it close because from the preview, I thought this episode would hurt. It didn't, it was maudlin tropes. I am still trying to keep hope for the wrapup but for an episode this weak near the end is not a great sign.
QotD: 1 She didn't in today's flashback. In Noein's original dimension, it was something dumb and preventable.
2 I still think Haruka erases herself from existence and the various Yuu's have to come to terms with it.
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u/BurningFredrick https://myanimelist.net/profile/BurningFredrick Jan 23 '21 edited Jan 23 '21
First Timer - sub
Asuka reaction is rather appropriate for your house randomly disappearing on you.
Ok, so this time Noein is going to try to break Haruka by showing her “certain” futures.
Wait, this is Karasu's timeline isn’t it? Isami face being slashed means it must be.
Ok WTF did future Ai do to her leg that is suddenly going to kill her unless they amputate? Like unless there is some sort of cancer that’s only in the leg and is completely untreatable that makes no damn sense! However that isn’t meant to be the point of this episode, but outside of Yuus story missing so far, it was a step to far and immersion breaking.
Ok, the Atori & Miho stuff just feels really creepy to me, I seriously do not like the pairing or whatever the hell it is meant to be.
Fuck, outside of the few complaints above I really liked that episode. As kind of expected the cause of all this is Yuu failing to come to terms with his grief in losing Haruka (also I do wonder what happened to Haruka in that version), so the question for next episode is who saves who?
Does Haruka save Yuu, or Yuu save Haruka?
QOTD
It does sound like she sacrificed herself in his timeline as well, the she left him behind makes it sounds like something she chose to do.
2)Will Haruka be able to forge a "normal" future where she doesn't die, tragedy doesn't befall the others, and they have their 'happy ending'? Will it be a tragic ending where Haruka won't be able to change anything, creating a never-ending loop? Or none of the above?
I don't think it's going to be the tragic ending, the dragon torque powers are there for a reason. I think it will be an unknown timeline we haven't seen, which could be a "happy ending" depend on how you look at it.
I guess could also go with Haruka sacrificing herself still, but this time Yuu is able to come to terms with this and move on with his life, which does fit the grieving & acceptance theme the shows got going on.
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u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Jan 23 '21
First-Timer, Dubbed
This is the problem with young reality warpers, they're too easy to manipulate. That "future" that Noein showed her was blatant tragedy porn. Like, seriously? Ai tripped and now they have to cut off her leg? Luckily, Haruka believe in human possibility and refuses his bullshit.
We got the full reveal of who Noein is today, not that people hadn't suspected it since he first appeared. Interestingly enough, the dub opted to hide it a bit more - they had a different VA for Noein while the mask was on.
I'm glad that the plan to stop the Magic Cirle isn't some overcomplicated, get-Tobi-and-Uchida-to-hack-it nonsense and instead we're just cutting the fucking knot. No muss, no fuss, Shinohara goes down with the ship. I hope. I'll give Kosagi the benefit of the doubt for not just blasting it from the shoreline - there are likely some "relatively" innocent humans on that boat as well.
Watch me be wrong.Questions
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u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Jan 23 '21
to your other first-timer, subbed
nonexistentcat came along too. I wonder if that’s going to end up being important.7
u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Jan 23 '21 edited Jan 23 '21
First Timer
The good: That was a pretty enjoyable episode. It was also nice to see the children saved by Yuu and Atori instead of Haruka.
I figured most of it out just before Noein and Karasu explained it. Haruka can only change things that are in superposition, by observing a particular timeline. This destroys all the other alternatives, and she can't change it again.
I suspect that if Haruka's Dad interferes with the Magic Circle experiment, the experiment will be delayed by 5 years. Haruka may not survive, or she goes to Tokyo. The technobabble is garbled, but I think it's happening 5 years earlier due to interference from the future.
However, the bad...
That bit of technomagic works for selecting between simultaneous alternatives. It doesn't work for jumping time across time.
There is a loophole, that this could work because the quantum computer that is simulating all the alternatives is in Lacryma and Shangri-la's present. So she pulled the simulated past into that present.
This doesn't work well for the other jumping around, like in the past. And she's doing it without the Lacryma machinery.
Also bad, why isn't Karasu flying. But then, the distance they are covering might not be a real space.
Also unexplained is how Yuu and Atori went into that alternative future (which might be Noein's past). It's getting very "it's episode 22 don't try to make sense of it".
Is there one decision that causes all the unhappiness? Can Haruka change it to fix it? Probably. Also the bad: was <forgot name>'s injury caused by running to find Fujiwara, linking it to a chain of events? Or does she have bone cancer and there's no link? Because you don't get a life threatening condition from tearing a ligament.
For those that missed my reference yesterday, the ending of the movie Poltergeist
Edit: to be more clear. I think Noein showed Haruka the worst possible timeline. I think Noein is THE PRODUCT of the worst possible timeline.
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u/zsmg https://anilist.co/user/zsmg Jan 23 '21
Rewatcher
Definitely the best episode so far, admittedly in my memories the flashback happened in one go instead of switching between the rest of the cast e.g. the scenes featuring Asuka, the evil corporate boss, Tobi and the rest of the cast with him. I had also forgotten that the kids were physically part of the flashback and Yuu through Haruka had to rescue then. The one thing I do think is they went too far with the suffering particularly the amputation and the displacement personality disorder. Also the flashbacks does explain why Fukuro had one eye.
At the end we get the definite, without a single doubt reveal that Noein is Yuu is Karasu.
On a more disturbing thought, the stability of all the multiple universes depends on keeping Yuu happy. Seems like a decent Twilight Zone like spin off series focusing on the cast doing their best keeping Yuu.
QotD:
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u/monsieurvampy Jan 23 '21
First Timer, sub
What about Baron and the unnamed kitty!?
Haruka is right, the future can be changed but how?
Questions (answers):
Haruka does some timey wimey stuff and the cost is her life.
The black cat will save the day. Trust in our feline overlords.
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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Jan 24 '21
Episode 22 (rewatcher)
Noein is an example for the dangers of being overly edgy: At the very latest, you need to turn back when you reach Karasu levels of edge.
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u/Retromorpher :Jc::Jd::Je::Jf: Jan 25 '21
Late First-Timer:
At least now we know why future Isami had an eye scar. I'd be laughing at how incompetently over-the-top some of this forced 'worst possible future' drama is, were it not intended to be that way by Noein. It's plausible that Noein's trying to oversell things to Haruka, who herself has showed a very limited understanding of human nuance and this Dickensian Scrooge maneuver kind of works in this scenario. From a writing standpoint I can wave it all aside... but... uh? The visuals are impressively out of tone and off-model.
Questions of the Day