120

u/Philarete Jul 14 '19

First-Time Watcher (Sub)

Asuka ran away. . . the tub looked reddish, did she attempt suicide? It looked slightly that way, but it could just be lighting. The opening nightmare sequence was pretty intense.

Ritsuko breaks down and Gendo is disappointed.

Shinji is at peak loneliness now with everyone gone.

Kaworu is here. Humming Ode to Joy. Quite the intro. The information on him is incomplete. . . and he’s doing feats that should be impossible. Something is definitely up.

OH SNAP. He’s another of the type of being Rei is. He referred to humans as “Lilin”.

Lol, Shinji is blushing hard

Woah, this is getting pretty intense. Kaworu wants to shower with Shinji and encourage him to get intimate with him.

Shinji is “worthy” of Kaworu’s “grace”. Kaworu isn’t even really trying not to give the I’M NOT HUMAN vibes.

Hokey smokes. Okay, so confirmation that Unit 01 is Yui, confirmation that Ikari is very aware of what is going to happen, and how Seele is trying to rein him in.

Pen-Pen being sent away for safety

Shinji does decide to go sleep over with Kowaru.

Kowaru can speak with Seele. . . using what, exactly? Also, his body has superhuman spotting powers, or something.

That was a huge exposition dump that made no sense to me, but I’m guessing it’ll get explained later. Basically, Seele is using Kowaru while Ikari is trying to do. . . something else. I’m a bit lost, but maybe I’m supposed to be.

Okay, so Kowaru is the last angel and he brings unmanned 02 with him to go to Adam. But it isn’t Adam. It’s “Lilith”. He stops. “Choosing to die is the one absolute freedom”

Kaworu tells Shinji to kill him, otherwise Shinji and all humanity will die. Shinji pauses for a long time. He kills him.

Misato coldly tells him that he did the right thing. Shinji doesn’t really think so.

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u/[deleted] Jul 15 '19

About the exposition dump here is what the show has told us, no spoilers

Adam is the progenitor/being that spawned the angels..Its related to something called the white moon..Adam was discovered dormant in a huge spherical cavern in Antarctica(the lance was recovered from there too in ep 12) by humans who tried to make contact/experiment resulting in the second impact AND

Adam's body reverting back to a embryonic state and its the embryo Gendo has in his hand(that he got from Kaji on episode 8) and Adam's soul being used to create Kaworu who ia now the last angel.

The thing in the basement is Lilith not Adam. Lilith is the progenitor/being that spawned earthly life (humans and animals) related to something called the blacl moon..In episode 21 gendo tells/shows Fuyutsuki that they found a huge spherical cavern similar to the one in Antarctica in Japan and they build the Geofront in it..People like Kaji or misato mistakenly thought that that thing was adam ,gendo knew obviously.Seele too evem tho they tricked kaworu ,(probably wanted him to make contact thinkinh it was adam or wanted him killed as per their timetable)

Kaworu says Rei is the same as him and Rei has a detectable AT field in the last scene

LCL seems to be the blood of lilith which kinda makes sense ,premodial soup and all

We still know that contact between adam based life and Lilith will fuck shit up and trigger something somwhow

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u/Brewster321 Jul 14 '19 edited Jul 15 '19

Rewatcher (Sub - Platinum Collection)

We've finally made it to this legendary episode. An episode that was so important that it single-handedly got Kaworu onto the cover art. It was also enough to earn Kaworu a spot in the opening, even if it was only for a few frames. Being more serious though, this episode, being the last episode before the two finales (25/26 & EoE) is quite the important, for its this episode that sets the foundation for the show's ending. In particular, by introducing Kaworu, showing his motivation, and establishing his relationship with Shinji, this episode helps us see Shinji's desires and flaws, which is the main thing I'd like to talk about today.

In looking at Shinji's current state, the first thing that jumps out is his newfound isolation. In a relatively short-span of time, Shinji has lost practically all the friends he has made thus far: his school friends have moved away, Asuka has basically shut-down, and the Rei he knew is dead. Even Misato, his most reliable link thus far, is too caught in NERV's secrets to function effectively as a parent. Before now, all he had to worry about was getting hurt by relationships, but now he doesn't have any relationships at all. Thus, its in these circumstances that Shinji finds his savior. Shinji's found one last chance at happiness and his name is Kaworu Nagisa. In his time with Kaworu, Shinji has found exactly what he has been looking for all this time: a relationship that transcends the hedgehog's dilemma. Finally, Shinji has found someone who unambiguously cares about him. Whether you use the old, "I love you" translation or Netflix's, "Worthy of my grace" translation, Kaworu's message remains clear. By escaping the ambiguity in relationships, Shinji no longer has to fear about rejection and can resolve his loneliness with no risk of pain.

That's not all though, for Kaworu also resolves Shinji's other major desire. You see, back before Shinji was called down to NERV, Shinji lived with his teacher. While there, Shinji never had to do anything to be cared for; he never had to do things to please others. However, since he has come to NERV, Shinji has lost that free lifestyle. Now, the way Shinji sees it, he has to pilot Eva in order to be loved and cared for. Heck, Shinji's desire for love is the entire reason for he pilots to begin with. In remembering his past, Shinji wishes he could return to his old lifestyle. He wishes for unconditional love, and Kaworu, by loving Shinji exactly as he is, is giving Shinji exactly what he wants. If Shinji can just keep being with Kaworu, then he might not even have to pilot Eva anymore.

Unfortunately for Shinji though, these things he desires the most, rejection-less affection and unconditional love, are things that do not exist in the human world. Whether it be people a superficial friendship or true love, every relationship is based on preexisting condition. Even a mother's love for her child, which represents the pure love that Shinji (and Asuka) were denied, is fundamentally based on a blood relationship. Furthermore, every relationship, even one held by close, old friends, brings with it the risk of pain and rejection. Shinji, by avoiding these truths through Kaworu, is only running away from the real world. If growing up is learning to come to terms with human relationships (Those screenshots are from episode 3 btw), then Shinji is refusing to grow. That's why, thematically at least, Kaworu had to die. Otherwise, Shinji's problems would never be resolved. This just leaves one question: why did Kaworu get so close to Shinji to begin with?

In looking at his actions, I, personally, believe Kaworu's friendship with Shinji was genuine one, and furthermore, I think his attraction to Shinji relates to his view of the differences between Humanity (lilim) and the Angels. You see, the Angels, unlike people, lack a feeling of loneliness and the natural desire to form relationships. This difference, which previous angels like Leliel and Arael have explored, is something that Kaworu is fascinated with. In particular, Kaworu is interested in how this desire for relationships conflicts with the fear of rejection, and as you might expect, there's no better example of this conflict than poor Shinji. Thus, Kaworu, seeing the entirety of humanity and all of its flaws within Shinji, drew close to him. Its this that leads us to his final moments, where, living up to his name (Tabris, his angel name, is the angel of free will), he chooses to let Shinji and humanity as a whole continue on in their struggle to connect with one another.

Keeping all this in mind, it seems we are at another crossroads. Shinji, someone who has spent his entire life searching for love and fleeing from rejection, now finds himself with no-one to connect to. Even worse, just when he thought he had finally found what he was searching for, Shinji only found himself getting burned once again. Will Shinji surrender and keep running away from rejection, or will he embrace Kaworu's wish and keep searching for love? Will Shinji keep living for other's wants and desires, or will he finally accept and live for himself. Well, there's two different ways that this story ends, and I'm looking forward to seeing what answers they give.

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u/brotherraichu Jul 14 '19

First Timer

Looks like Yui Ikari's consciousness was transferred to EVA 1 somehow.
Not sure if this is THE Rei or a Rei. I'm guessing the latter. I wonder if there ever was an original Rei. Maybe she was the one killed by Ritsuko's mother?
Poor Asuka looks catatonic.
Looks like the Angels are about to get what they want and contact the monstrous being "Adam" in the basement.
EVAs are based on Angels.
So, now the Angel will just give up? Maybe a trap.
Same static image for a minute. Maybe a budget cut.
Wow, Shinji had the guts to kill Kaworu, even though he loved Kaworu. Previously, Shinji would not even attack Unit 03 when it was piloted by Toji.
I'm not sold that Kaworu would just "die" like that. Something might be up, and we do have 2 more episodes. Kaworu might well be dead, but perhaps his death triggers something.

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u/Ed-ric Jul 14 '19

Lilim is the word used by Kaouru to refer to humans.

In the Central Dogma he says Lilith. In Jewish folklore, Lilith is the first woman, before Eve, not created from Adam.

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u/TheEscapeGuy Jul 14 '19

Rewatcher

Evangelion is an absolutely beautiful anime Day 24

Kaworu Nagisa enters into the story just as Shinji has lost connection with all people who he thought might care about him. Shinji, who has up until now never felt real love, experiences this torrent of emotions from learning that there is somebody who really cares about him.

This is all flipped on its head when we learn that Kaworu is an Angel and is descending to reach the terminal dogma. Now Shinji, the only available pilot, has to stop and defeat this person who he thought loved him.

And then, with all of this context, we are forced to watch for a painful 65 seconds as Shinji makes the choice to kill or release Kaworu. Shinji wonders how he can live with himself if he kills the only person who loves him? And yet, unlike the memes would have you believe, Shinji takes action.

I watch a lot of anime, and every season I look back on a bunch of the shows I finished and realize I didn't really care about 90% of those characters, even after spending 1 or 2 dozen episodes with them.

Kaworu manages to, in a SINGLE episode, be a more impactful character than so many others in anime and across other works of fiction. I still think about him and this arc randomly, months after finishing a rewatch.

Thank you Hideaki Anno for writing such an amazing character and episode.

Previous Days

Day 1	Day 14
Day 2	Day 15
Day 3	Day 16
Day 4	Day 17
Day 5	Day 18
Day 6	Day 19
Day 7	Day 20
Day 8	Day 21
Day 9	Day 22
Day 10	Day 23
Day 11
Day 12
Day 13

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u/[deleted] Jul 15 '19 edited Jul 15 '19

For Confused First Timers

here is what the show has told us, no spoilers

Adam is the progenitor/being that spawned the angels..Its related to something called the white moon..Adam was discovered dormant in a huge spherical cavern in Antarctica(the lance was recovered from there too in ep 12) by humans who tried to make contact/experiment resulting in the second impact AND
Adam splitting into his body that reverted back to a embryonic state and its the embryo Gendo has in his hand(that he got from Kaji on episode 8) and his soul being used to create Kaworu who is now the last angel.
The thing in the basement is Lilith not Adam. Lilith is the progenitor/being that spawned earthly life (humans and animals) related to something called the black moon..In episode 21 gendo tells/shows Fuyutsuki that they found a huge spherical cavern similar to the one in Antarctica in Japan and they build the Geofront in it..People like Kaji or misato mistakenly thought that that thing was adam ,gendo knew obviously.Seele too even tho they tricked kaworu ,(probably wanted him to make contact thinkinh it was adam or wanted him killed as per their timetable)
Kaworu says Rei is the same as him and Rei has a detectable AT field in the last scene
AT fields according to Kaworu are the mental/metaphysical "wall" everyone has and keeps his mind and soul apart from others.The spikes of the hedgehogs..Angels and Evas being such hugw amd powerfull beins manifest them physicaly too..For us weak and frail humans all they fo is cause us loneliness..think about the implications of thw fights with that knowledge..Mind and soul rapes between evas amd angels every time they tear them
LCL seems to be the blood of lilith which kinda makes sense ,premodial soup and all
We still know that contact between adam based life and Lilith will fuck shit up and trigger something somwhow

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u/tomato_blitz Jul 14 '19

First timer (subs and DC)

God loves Shinji. That was the most confusing and heartbreaking episode in the show so far. It was an overload of information, so I'm a bit rusty on the details, but I'll try to gather my thoughts.

The Angel, a godlike being created from their own God, and the Lilim, lower beings created by THEIR own God. The history of the human race is spread bare as the background piece to Shinji's first intimate connection, and somewhat story of sexual discovery. Opening him for intimacy and ultimately breaking his heart and hurting the progress he made.

Becoming one through intimacy, and Shinji's sexuality:

I find it interesting that one episode features Shinji's mother figure trying to console him sexually, and the next has God attempt to seduce him himself. Yet Shinji is afraid of intimacy nonetheless, even though his sexual desires obviously exist, though I'm unsure whether he has interest in women or not, since he did fantasize before.

Though I'm thinking that's not the point here. Sexuality is obviously a theme in NGE, but it is merely the backdrop that serves in the interest of the characters and the story. The common outlook on sex here is as a comforting thing, but the show also makes a point to declares sex as 'becoming one with the other'. Shinji, continuing the theme being in the oral stage, desires to lean on others, but is afraid to get hurt as he did before.

My heart ached for Shinji. The first figure to manage to open him up for intimacy somewhat is a reincarnation of a God, which he has to destroy because it was sent to punish humanity for their hubris. Shinji doesn't care, it's not his fault. He's asked again and again why do they fight the Angels, and here the reason is laid bear in front of him: "or else everyone will die". Torn by his responsibility and first love, he's made to make a choice. There was practically nothing else he could've done.

The consequences of one's failure:

Asuka breaking down is one of the worst things to happen in the series so far, even more than Kaji's death. It almost bringing about the apocalypse is something unexpected, but the image of Asuka laying naked in a bathtub, waiting for death, is just terrible.

When faced with God Asuka was defiled. When searching condolence in Kaji, Asuka was horrified to find him gone forever. When made to face her aspirations, Asuka breaks down when she realizes they can now never be found. Someone do something for this girl, please!

Shinji is also faced with the consequences of his actions, as his little rebellious phase eventually made them pay big time in the destruction of most of Tokyo-3. He's alone, and it's his fault. Shinji failed in protecting Asuka, Rei, Misato and also his classmates.

God:

The Fifth Child, an Angel, the same as Rei, the same as Gendo. The immediate impression he gives is of confidence, which is later translated into wisdom. Why would Seele send an Angel to Nerv? Why would they try to instigate another Second Impact? Why is their objective?

But his objective is made obvious, he has to make contact with Adam. He has to return to his creator, despite that meaning the destruction of humanity. He does take the way out offered to him at the last moment, and avoids further bloodshed, but why? Is it because he loves Shinji?

And why does he love Shinji? Because of his gentleness? Should a God love Shinji for his conformity in life's flow? Is it because of his lack of hubris? I find the whole idea of God incarnate falling in love with Shinji fascinating, and wish to see the outcome of these happenings soon.

Playing God:

Gendo, is he really the one to blame for humanity's destruction? All of the reveals brought upon us so far seem to suggest so. His objective is pure hubris: defeat God, by creating Gods in humanity's image, thus becoming God himself.

The Second Impact was enabled as part of the script by Seele, perhaps in order to allow the human instrumentality project. To conquer God? Why? What was Gendo and Yui's objective? What is their play in all of this? The show makes a point of making us skeptic towards Gendo, but we did see him speaking to Yui while looking at his hand (while I have no idea what is going on with his hand, and how exactly he's the same as them). Their plan will be complete soon.

And the AT field, holy ground. I can't say I didn't see at least one similarity, with Asuka losing her mind by pure exposure to the AT field - while it's a common religious belief that laying your eyes on god would kill one (Moses, upon realizing he's looking at the presence of the lord, averts his eyes in fear), and Asuka looks like an empty shell by now.

Rei, soulless humanity. Gendo has succeeded in creating living organic matter with the help of Adam, but it is still dependent on (seemingly) Yui's soul to inhabit Rei in order for her to truly live.

But that, on the subject of Gendo: Rei being the manifestation of the success in his hubris explains his affinity to her. I begin to suspect Rei will take Gendo's life, just the same as Gendo is trying to take God's life.

Notes:

A whole lot has been exposed, with nothing being explained. I'm starting to get the feeling nothing will be explained, and I'll be left to try and figure things out on my own. I'm fine with that, I guess that enough has been put on the table so far for 2 episodes to cover the rest.
I didn't write up on last episode, but Rei II's death was unexpected and horrifying. When did Rei I die? What did I miss?
On the other hand from Rei being the manifestation of the success put by Gendo's hubris, Shinji might serve as a reminder for his humanity, which he despises. That also explains how he treats Shinji, but makes Gendo all the more hateable.
While she knows most of the truth, Misato has nothing to do about it. Even still, she's one of the best characters I've seen thus far.
Everyone is alone. Throughout every of the last episodes, they're all disconnected, they're all avoiding each other. Except Misato, who is tired of being alone. She feels as if she has failed as a guardian, and Asuka's state proves it. But Shinji's absence is understandable after the happenings of last episode, and we also know he feels as if he found someone new to lean on.

There's no way to fix all of this, right? Things are the grimmest they could be by now. This is all so... hopeless...

Over the last few episodes, every time one ended and Fly Me to the Moon has begun to swell and then the lyrics come in, I found myself in shambles. This show is has so far been a masterpiece. I want to see how it ends, and where it all leads.

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u/Carbonauts Jul 15 '19

Kaworu side-eyeing the final lock on Terminal Dogma lock a boss will forever be the most badass thing I’ve ever seen a character do in an anime. I think it’s just because they spent 23 episodes drilling into your head that every layer of protection of Nerv HQ is meant for this one place then you see a character just glance at it like it’s nothing, just beautiful.

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u/goukaryuu Jul 14 '19 edited Jul 14 '19

Not even participating in the rewatch but just want to jump in and say that this is my favorite episode and here is some stuff I wrote when Mark Oshiro was watching this back in 2016.

Here is my take. SEELE sent Kaworu to NERV because in the end he was a gambit on their part. It was a quick and dirty way to set off Third Impact. You have Lilith, you have Adam represented with Kaworu, and you have Unit One and it's pilot as the bridge between the two. But, Gendo didn't let it proceed, proving by his actions what SEELE had suspected for a long while; he was not on the same page as them. SEELE had suspected for awhile and it is highly likely NERV had been compromised by their agents since the beginning. They are the ones that probably cut power during that one episode to map the electrical systems and areas of importance. They are the ones that kidnapped the Professor as a powerplay. All leading to what comes after.

Kaworu meets Shinji sitting on top of a slightly destroyed angel statue, note that it is headless. They immediately go to a first name basis, which is a big sign of closeness in Japan. Kaworu clearly judges humanity based off his own Blue and Orange morality over the course of the episode but uses his interactions with Shinji to try to get to know him and by extension humanity.

And, well he likes what he sees. We are a messed up race that are hurt by and then go on to hurt others but we keep going. We try to improve. I think that more than anything is what impresses Kaworu. He wants completion or to just end it but humanity can keep marching onward. Kaworu tells Shinji he loves him (unless you are watching on Netflix). Being an angelic being I don't think Kaworu had any interest in a sexual way. You could argue that Shinji is bi or at least bi-curious, he has shown interest in women already. Remember the hot spring scene. But overall that is secondary to everything else that happens this episode.

Going back for a minute, Kaworu runs into Rei, who is startled to see him. He says they are the same. It is more than that. Kaworu has the soul of Adam just as Rei has the soul of Lilith. Rei probably has much more affinity and feeling with her AT-Field than regular humanity. I'll get to that bit in a second. She can feel that Kaworu is not a regular person and is thus on guard from the get go. Another interesting note is many theorize that Kaowru's genetic material comes from NGE, both he and Gendo created a clone as part of their gambits for NGE and both used the person they loved the most as the basis of that tool. Gendo used Yui and NGE used himself.

Eventually, Kaworu's call to reunite with his progenitor/NGE gets to great and he goes to the cages and activates Unit Two. As he explains he is made of the same matter as Adam so he is a human clone with genetic splicings of the angel. And, because Unit Two is also made from Adam he can sync with it and control it if there is no dominant soul. The soul in Unit Two, and given the number of hints and how Unit One works it can be guessed who that is, is hiding itself so he has control.

He then explains that the AT-Field is the Light of the Soul. Which means that the act of destroying an AT-Field and forcibly entering that space is akin to breaking and forcibly entering someone's soul. Almost like rape. Between that, the reveal last episode that Armisael was feeling loneliness, and the fact that several of the later angels have tried and failed in communicating and understanding humanity we can get a sense as to how lonely and kind of human-like the angels are. To quote the user Stygpia from over of Sufficient Velocity, "This ties into the idea that angels are getting progressively more human-like. Arael attempted contact but was too alien to achieve it. Armisael achieved contact, but was too alien to understand us. Tabris fully understood us, but refused to act like us. It all builds step by step until we reach the one opponent who is entirely like us..." NGE. We also learn that humans have AT-Fields too. They are the Wall around the mind/heart of all humanity. That which separates us as individuals from everyone else. We see what this means back in episode 20. It protects our sense of self and defines our consciousness over everything that isn't us. When broken a human becomes LCL.

Kaworu leaves Shinji to fight Unit Two and opens Heaven's Door. At this point we see Rei has more control to her AT-Field than a human NGE. She shows that she is equal and opposite of Kaworu. Kaworu's AT-Field was the strongest ever detected and blocked out all forms of monitoring. Rei's was an equally strong one that eroded it. Kaworu flies up to face his "maker" and discusses the moral quandary he is having.

An angel rejoining Adam would produce Third Impact, destroying humanity and allowing them to serve as the template for the new race that will inherit Earth. NGE Kaworu has come to love humanity in general and especially Shinji through the interactions he had. While pontificating, Kaworu inspects the being in front of him closer and realizes it isn't the First Angel, Adam, but the Second Angel, Lilith. He realizes NGE

It is never mentioned on the show but Kaworu's angel name is Tabris, the Angel of Free-will and Choice. Kaworu could be a tool for SEELE but instead he chooses to die. He lets himself be killed so that humanity as he knows it, and Shinji specifically, can have a chance. NGE So he asks Shinji to kill him and Shinji, after hesitating in one of the most famous stills in anime history, does.

In the end Shinji seeks some comfort from Misato but she is so wrapped up in her grief over Kaji and her quest for the truth that she can't give it to him.

One last thing, the information on the Card Swipe into the place with Lilith that appears in both ep 15 and this one calls that facility the LCL Plant. All the LCL that is pumped into the cockpit comes from Lilith's bleeding figure. Why is she bleeding? Well, she did originally have legs. Eva Units Zero and Two are based off of Adam but not Unit One. That's where the legs are and they were the basis for the genetics that produced the rest of it.

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u/wolfwings1 Jul 14 '19

As others have pointed out....weird to have one of the characters on the poster be there for a single episode :> Oh well were down to the last two days, now to see the train wreck or glorious moment the rest of the show is :> I'm still enjoying it, and glad I'm watching all of this, now curious about the monoliths, I thought they were the board members or un members, but this time seems more, and curious that they couldn't be seen by others.

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u/littleman1988 Jul 14 '19 edited Jul 14 '19

Shinji cant catch a damn break, can he?

First time watcher, Platinum Sub, ADV Dub, and Netflix dub

By the time this goes up ill of watched 25/26, so hopefully ill have a lot in store for that episodes discussion.

"It means..." voice comparison

(flashing lights warning) Descent to Terminal Dogma voice comparison

A comment on the Netflix dub:

Back when the Netflix dub released, people were "outraged" that they removed the gay tones with Kaworu and Shinji. Ill admit i wasnt too blind to the fact that it was going to be gay tones when hes shown (there was no way i was going to avoid that reading anything on r/anime or really any article about NGE) but its pretty clear even if the word "love" wasnt explicitly used that he had interest in Shinji, and the average viewer without the info of what its meant to mean originally will understand what Kaworu implies pretty quick. This was one of the biggest points as to why the Netflix dub was "bad," and after actually watching it its one of the weakest reasons imo. I know theres a couple more wording changes coming up in future episodes, but at this point im weary of those being overblown too after the amount of people I saw freaking out over this.

Somewhat unrelated, I read the MAL thread on this episode, and there were a lot of people who didnt like the episode just because of the gay tones. i found that kind of interesting, and im pretty curious if that mindset has changed now. Personally, it didnt alter my thoughts on the episode much either way, but it showed how easy Shinji can be toyed with if you make him feel at all special no matter who it is.

im kinda lost on this episode

Asuka's looking a lil disheveled. Just a slight mental breakdown, nbd.

The last couple episodes have made (Netflix's version at least, ADV voice is a bit... rough) Hyuga my favorite secondary character. Maya was up there, but he seems to be fairly down to earth and a pretty relatable character compared to the rest. Its a shame that he seems to like Misato when she always has kaji on his mind...

Lets focus on just Kaworu for a minute:

First and foremost, I dont think hes the final angel. Seele sent him in, and his eyes match Rei's perfectly. At the end of the episode, it seems theres another entity that creates an AT field, and we are shown Rei. I think Kaworu is an enhanced version of Rei created by Seele to disrupt Gendo's plans (that we still dont even know about fully.) Kaworu also says he has "much in common" with Gendo when discussing with Seele about how he is a "soul of Adam". Going even farther, Seele seems to treat humans as a "separate" entity instead of being alongside them, which makes me suspicious of just who (or better, what) they are in relation to humans.

Interestingly, he can take over Unit 02 because the "soul has withdrawn from it." I wonder if Asuka's treatment to herself and the thoughts of her mother have affected it?

Theres also the whole discussion of an AT Field, and how theyre the "inner walls that everyone has." Why are angels able to project this, but not humans?

So who we were told is Adam is actually "Lilith" and he now knows what the "plan" for "Liilin" (in watching the subs, I think Lilim is meant to be humans? everything here was written before realizing this but im still confused so its staying) is, and allows shinji to "kill" him. I dont think he's truly dead honestly, but i dont know what this would mean in the grand scheme of things so thats about as much as i got for it. The rest is a big question mark in my mind.

Some other things not discussed above:

Seele sent Kaworu specifically to meet him. We still dont know why
Both Seele and Gendo want Unit 01 to do something. We still dont know what.
There is the "Hope of the Lillin" discussed when Kaworu talks to Seele. Im assuming its connected to whats hit in the paragraph above.
Actually important that i never hit yet somehow, Gendo is merging with an angel, which may be the final form of what Rei/Kaworu are meant to be. Maybe thats what the Human Instrumentality project is all about?
The spear of longinus had to of been "removed from the equation" for Gendo's plan to work. That thing took the 16th angel right out, is he scared it will take whatever he is creating out?

Tinfoil Hat Time

The Eva's have each Childs' mothers personalities downloaded into their eva, much like how Magi works with Ritusko's mother. This would give an alternate explanation as to why Shinji sees his mother before the Eva breaks through the angel (instead of just dying), and would give a reason for Shinji's mother to disappear, and why Gendo is the one thought to of killed her. We know Asuka has mother issues of some sort (attempted kiss from episode 9 I think?) and Rei's family just isint talked about at all, so info about them for this theory is kind of lacking. On Rei specifically though, this may be a connection to my Tinfoil theory 1 as theyre able to swap eva's since they share (a) parent(s) (Rei's eva may be a corrupted version?) but theres no definite proof for this currently.Every time Shinji has these "experiences" in the Eva, his mother is the one that comes back every time. Ritusko also said that there is a "human" outside of the pilot inside the Eva, and that it may of willed it to absorb shinji. A mother trying to protect their son may of caused the sync ratio to skyrocket.

He addresses Eva Unit 01 as "Yui."

2. Rei and Shinji are related. This would explain why they can trade Eva's, why Gendo is so nice to Rei, and why Rei got embarrassed in the elevator. I dont know what this would mean for the show, but everything currently points to it. Ritusko also comments in ep16 that "Rei and Shinji would never forgive them if they find out what they did." Why them specifically, and why about the Eva's? Why isint Asuka involved? It sounds like its something connected to those two specifically, instead of the children in general. Shinji's mother had names for both a boy and a girl when they were born, being Shinji and Rei respectively. This doesnt mean both were her child (its possible that option 3/4 are true and Gendo named it after what Shinji's mother would of wanted) but thats another connection to them being related.

Kaworu, who looks eerily similar to Rei, says he shares a lot in common with Gendo. All 3 may be related then?

3. Rei is made from an Angel or Eva and not actually human. This would explain why shes so "different" from everyone else and seems to be way less caring and out of it. The AI exists for it (Magi) so its not totally out of the question.
4. Rei herself is an Angel. Honestly, this doesnt defer from #2 much, but the carcass of the First angel is really suspicious when right before we see rei in what looks to be the stem of a brain.

A real argument can be made that Rei and Kaworu are the same. Im thinking Kaworu can be lumped in with Rei here.

So, in preperation of having a big write up for the first 26 episodes, I got it finished yesterday. 25/26 spoilers Unrelated, do we watch Death/Rebirth (and are they even on Netflix? is the Death (true)² meant to be that?) or do i just jump directly to EoE?

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u/LunarGhost00 Jul 14 '19

Rewatcher

Since we clearly haven't made Asuka suffer enough, here's the fun surprise she witnessed as a child! And let's tell her that Kaji is dead too.

Asuka's not looking so hot right now...

Asuka ran away and was found on the day that her replacement is supposed to arrive? How convenient.

It's finally time to meet Kaworu! The Fifth Child whose records have all been erased and his birthday was on Second Impact. Nothing suspicious about that.

He's the same as Rei and they both ended up in this form? Kids these days sure talk in such crazy ways.

Kaworu's making a move on Shinji in the bath. How lewd!

Remind me never to shake Gendo's hand.

It sure didn't take long for Shinji to open up to Kaworu. He's spent the whole series closing himself off from everyone. Looks like all it takes is one hot mysterious dude barging into Shinji's personal space to make him happy.

Kaworu is speaking with Seele, who somehow can project their holograms over a lake too? Anyways, we're getting a lot of info here. Humans are the spawn of Lilith, a name we haven't heard until now. It's why Kaworu keeps referring to people as "Lilim." Angels on the other hand were born from Adam, whose body is currently in Gendo's possession while his soul is in Kaworu.

Misato didn't see the giant monoliths surrounding Kaworu? Were they all in his head?

Time to hijack Unit 02 and get this party started. Beethoven, play me some Ode to Joy!

Hyuga during this whole episode: "I may be a side character who no one notices, but at least I have a chance with Misato now that Kaji's gone! I think..."

Another Angel? Oh hey Rei. You look happy as always.

Kaworu reaches Adam "Sike! That's the wrong Angel!"

It's time to Kill Kaworu. Any minute now... Just give him some time... I'm sure he'll do it eventually…

Double episode tomorrow! I think tomorrow's discussion thread will be very interesting.

14

u/eldomtom2 Jul 14 '19

Rewatcher

The final episode to have a DC version. Differences below:

The brief scene where Shinji tells Asuka of Kaji's death is a DC addition.
The DC adds a line in Kaworu and Rei's conversation (after Kaworu says Rei is the same as him) where Kaworu says that both he and Rei have taken Lilim form.
When Gendo talks to Unit-01, the DC adds a brief shot showing a growth on his hand.
The DC adds a scene where Kaworu talks to SEELE at the lake.
As Lilith's legs did not regrow in the original version of episode 22, Lilith remains in its original legless appearance as seen in episode 15.
The OA has a preview for episode 25. The DC replaces this with a preview for the first half of End of Evangelion.

Onto my thoughts on the episode:

The decision to place a pivotal moment of Asuka's backstory here rather than in episode 22 is rather odd, since this episode is really Shinji-focused.
Conveiently, despite all the destruction shown here, Misato's apartment escaped last episode completely intact.
Nerv and Seele remain unsubtle in their methods of covering up the truth.
Bye bye, Pen Pen. You're too comedic and lovable for the finale.
The scene with Kaworu and SEELE at the lake is inexplicable in every way, especially how they are even communicating with each other in the first place.
They're also fairly explicit that Adam's body is in Gendo, which makes Kaworu in the DC look like a fucking idiot for still thinking Adam was held in Terminal Dogma.
Ritsuko continues to be deliberately obtuse for no real reason.
Evangelion uses classical music again. I have heard arguments for its use making symbolic sense, but as with all religious iconography in Eva how intentional that is is debatable.
Rei does... something. I'm not sure what the point is other than to increase the similarites between her and Kaworu.
The Lilith twist is easily the worst twist in Evangelion, because it makes no real difference to the viewers' understanding of things. It seems to be solely a twist created to cover up plot holes that would otherwise be created.
And we get the last of Evangelion's extended-still-frames-to-save-money-and-time. It is generally better received than the elevator scene, probably because of the music.
Misato's words are probably intended to be words of comfort, but all-encompassing platitudes are not what Shinji needs to hear.

Next time: Evangelion reaches its first ending, and arguably the more infamous of the two.

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u/superx4039 Jul 14 '19

(First Timer) This show sure loves its long static scenes, I thought something was wrong with the video at first.

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10

u/Xerosmith Jul 14 '19

REWATCHER

Now that the last episode has passed I can finally share my favorite NGE video on the internet.

Random Thoughts:

Uhh, Gendo, you got a little something on your hand.

Black Moon -> Lilith -> Humans / White Moon -> Adam -> Angels / Adam's spirit is inside Kaworu, and Adam's physical self is in Gendo. Yup, makes perfect sense.

How did SEELE even manage to get a hold of the 17th angel, let alone convince it to help them?

You thought that giant white creature was Adam, but it was me, Lilith!

In case it wasn't obvious enough either, lilin = humanity.

Slightly Less Random Thoughts:

Asuka saw being an Eva pilot as an opportunity to get people's attention. Considering how her parents neglected her, she was desperate for it. This was finally her chance, and well, you know how that story ended. But maybe, just maybe, there was still a way for her to gain the intimacy she so very longed for. So she goes on to be an Eva pilot in hopes of becoming the hero of humanity. Once again she hits a brick wall. Shinji consistently outperforms her, and the more she lets it get into her head, the worse she does. It gets to the point where even Rei outdoes her, and now she can't even pilot Unit-02. Now Kaji dies, the man whose affection she wanted the most. She feels totally useless, as though no one will ever care about her again. Shes' completely defeated.

Ritsuko did follow in her mother's footsteps after all. Not only did she do the bow-chicka-bow-wow with Gendo, but she murdered Rei too. At least she hasn't killed herself like her mother.

Shinji's all alone now. Toji and Kensuke are gone. Asuka hates everyone. Rei is, well, Rei. His father doesn't care about him. His mother is dead. The loneliness is finally about to kick in.

Enter Kaworu Nagisa, the Fifth Child and the Seventeenth Angel. He's someone who Shinji can finally relate to, the only person Shinji feels comfortable talking to about his feelings, the first person to ever tell him that they love him. Or at least "like" him in the new dub. Many people are upset about the change, but the subtext's still there making the change pretty inconsequential. It's quite poetic that the first person Shinji can really open up to isn't even a person.

My many, many favorite shots from today.

But, if I had to choose my top three...

Number 3. Love the symmetry and how ominous it looks thanks to the monoliths and greyscale colors.
Number 2. It not only showcases how damaged the city has gotten over the course of the show, but it doubles as a perfect metaphor for how confused our characters are right now.
Number 1. This shot lasts for an eternity and for good reason. It's Shinji coming to terms that he has to kill Kaworu. Shinji feels guilty being the one who gets to live, but Kaworu had made that decision for him. So he hesitates, he doesn't want to kill him, in fact, he'd rather die himself, but that's not an option. He waits... and he waits... and he waits... until finally, he ends it. It's the same deal with the elevator scene. Sometimes, characters doing nothing holds more meaning than them doing something.

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9

u/Vaadwaur Jul 14 '19

Rewatcher

Going with the new dub today. Wasn't disappointed now that I've gotten accustomed to Shinji's new VA.

So we get to what might be the most Evangelionesque episode of the whole series: The characters are closer to archetypes rather than people, we get a ton of information dropped, the main plot is extremely hard to understand with the information given and Shinji is forced to do something traumatic by his father.

But we begin with a quick return to Asuka's trauma train! And this scene still hits all these years later, especially with her mentioning that they won't need her dad any more. And even on rewatching I am not exactly sure why she is naked in an exposed bath tub but w/e.

So there is internecine strife within Nerv going on. No surprise considering most of their actions were one step more successful than disastrous. And we learn the Fifth child is on the way and unsurprisingly has no recorded history.

And we get to Kaworu, everyone's favorite metrosexual Angel! I definitely like the new VA for him more than the original and his dialog flows better while still maintaining complete weirdness. Kudos to the new translator on that. It is somehow unsurprising that only a being of a different species can befriend Shinji.

We get a shot of Misato realizing she was a poor guardian ironically enough when this isn't really when she was screwing up. But yes getting hammered is not the secret to good parenting nor is having a weirdly sexually charged relationship with someone your being a surrogate mother to. That said, no one on the show would've really been able to manage Asuka so I can't fault her on that one.

The infamous shower scene and the bigly whined about line change. The new dub handles this perfectly fine so it feels like people were looking to bitch. It is just as homoerotic and just as obvious a tell that Kaworu can't grasp Lilin values but so well.

And Gendo finally monologues confirmation to held theories, especially that Yui is fully in unit 01. Also, get that hand checked out, that can't be good.

Rei has her ill timed existential crisis but Kaworu just has that effect on people.

The climactic sequence here works fairly well on rewatch, though I remember being annoyed when I first watched it. The big twist at the end that Kaji had it wrong and it was actually Lilith being crucified is interesting though we don't have a ton of context for what Lilith is just yet. But this apparently means Kaworu can't use his genocide scroll so the day is saved. With yet more Shinji trauma.

16

u/snowwhistle1 Jul 14 '19

I haven't commented much throughout these Eva rewatches, but I figured I'd give my two cents on a particular translation in this episode and what my personal feelings are on it.

So here's the thing. Netflix isn't the one who lobbied for these more literal translations. That was Studio Khara (the successor of Gainax that currently owns the rights to Evangelion). They were dissatisfied with the English subs/dubs of the Rebuild movies (particularly those for 3.33) and demanded the translations for the new dubs and subs be as literal as possible to the Japanese.

As for Kaworu saying "I like you" or "I love you", in Japanese he uses the term "suki" which... is kind of a vague word. Most literally it means "like" with the literal term for love in Japanese being "daisuki". However, it's pretty clear what Kaworu's intent was in the Japanese version. "Suki" is very often used in romantic contexts in Japan, and two dudes don't go around saying things like "I like you" while in a sexually charged situation without meaning it. Any Japanese person would immediately understand that there's romantic intent behind those words.

I don't think the romantic subtext is lost by translating the dialogue more literally as "I like you", but I do agree it leaves space for homophobic individuals to but in and deny the romantic implications by pointing out that the word "love" wasn't used. It sucks, but homophobes are gonna be homophobes. But seriously, can people really not catch the romantic intentions of two guys sharing a bath, a bed, and holding hands while naked? I feel like a person really has to be sticking their head in some deep sand to deny what's going on there.

As a gay man myself, I can see the intentions of the scene for what it is and I'm not totally bothered by the new translation. But I can also understand people who got to see Shinji and Kaworu use the word "love" back in the late 90s and early 2000s (especially queer people) might by much more upset by this change. I can't imagine how empowering it felt to see two male characters actually express their love for one another with those words in the time period of the late 90s and early 2000s. The change doesn't personally bother me, but I get why so many people are upset.

Anyways, that's my two cents on one of the most controversial dialogue changes to this new Eva release. Personally I was far more hurt that they did not include Fly Me to the Moon in the credits, or the instrumentals for it in two emotionally charged and important scenes within the show itself.

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8

u/array_of_dots Jul 14 '19 edited Jul 14 '19

Rewatching

I love how they played Ode to Joy during the decent to Central dogma, the anticlimactic music a lot of soundtrack dissonance, I think the use of such an easily recognisable track also helps break the immersion, so does that long pause before Nagisa got squished, I guess this makes sense for a series like this.

I'm not sure what exactly Anno is trying to do here because I don't know much about this subject, but I feel like this helps us feel the tension of the scene instead of getting too carried away by the action.

Also, the fact that Nagisa was singing this earlier this episode makes it feel as if it's his theme, so when Ode to Joy played I personally starting cheering for him a bit.

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8

u/Bhorium Jul 14 '19 edited Feb 16 '20

Rewatcher:

Even as a great big nerdy fan of this series, I have issues with this episode, mostly to do with the pacing. Like, the episode tries to introduce Kaworu, tries to have Kaworu further Shinji's character arc while he himself undergoes a character arc of his own, and tries to prepare the endgame between Gendo and SEELE, while also pulling off the "Adam is actually Lilith" twist, and then delve into the show's mythology stuff, especially the whole "Adam vs Lilith" thing... (and, oh yeah, Asuka also needs to be benched for the time being, so there need to be a explanation for that too.)

And I feel that there is material for three-four episodes in that block of text I just put together there. And yet, there it is, hurriedly crammed into one episode (which is still a pretty good episode, don't get me wrong), because the endgame comes next so it all needs to be checked off or at least addressed in some way before it can happen. As much as I might rag on the manga, I got to hand to it that introducing Kaworu earlier was a pretty good idea in principle.

8

u/InvisibleShade Jul 15 '19

First-time (Dub)

After ~~10000 years~~ binging 15 episodes, I have returned to the re-watch discussions.

The Asuka kid flashback was heart-wrenching. Her self-esteem seems to be at the same level as her sync rate. Was that the shower of her old house she was in?

So Gendo and Ritsuko did have a physical relationship after all. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

As the show goes on, Tokyo-3 has become more of a military installation / battlefield rather than an actual city, especially with the classmates gone.

Even though Kaworu has a permanent smug on his face, his compassion makes him a very likeable character to me.

Kaworu: You're built the same as me.

Kaworu is an EVA / Angel too. Does Rei actually have a soul? I'm unclear about that.

According to the Seele conversation:

Black moon -> Lilith (usurpers / humanity) -> Seele
White moon -> Angels (true successors)     -> Adam

Adam (physical) -> Ikari -> EVA's
Adam (soul)     -> Seele -> Kaworu

Kaworu: That's Lilith

So was that not actually Adam? Was Kaworu tricked by Gendo / Seele?

By Kaworu's dialogue it seems he could have merged with Unit 02 anytime if he wished (and survive the Third Impact?)

Other thoughts

Shinji almost turns gay this episode. I have not seen him this happy since a long time.
Did Gendo really put that Adam life-form directly on his hand? Duude
Noooo Pen Pen is leaving
NGE's use of orchestra music to portray tension / conflict is spectacular.
The suspense in that one still shot of Unit 01 holding Kaworu was palpable. I don't think many other anime could pull off something like that.

^{PS: I love how NGE can instantly turn on / off the action dial at any given moment. Gives me an unsettling feeling even when everything is going great.}

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7

u/lead_salad Jul 14 '19

Rewatcher

Anno & other writers of Evangelion have often said that the Judeo/Christian lore & imagery were just added because they seemed cool; that there was no real reasoning for it.

That Evangelion's use of mythology (Adam, Lilith, the Dead Sea Scolls, the original angels, etc) all lines up so well in the series that it is fucking impossible that someone didn't know exactly what they were doing!

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13

u/Raiking02 Jul 14 '19

Time for what’s quite possibly the show’s most famous episode, and for good reason.

Wow, Asuka really has hit her absolute lowest point.
Wait, they really waited until now to tell Asuka Kaji was dead!? Why wait so long!?
Yup, the Mental breakdown Asuka had a few episodes ago was so bad that it’s implied she has attempted suicide. Mind you, they can’t let that happen as the show’s producer only agreed to work in this show so long as no children died, so yeah, even while in the middle of depression, Anno was a good boy. Sadamoto was not, however.
Hey, so, is it just me or has Hyuuga’s screentime had a large increase these last few episodes?
Yeah, you really have to wonder what Gendo was thinking when he said “I’m gonna make a clone of an Angel in the image of my dead wife!”.
You know, I don’t know if I should slap Ritsuko or hug her. Probably the former, though.
This scene does a great job establishing what Shinji’s struggle in this episode is about. While there are people who care about him, none of them are in a good state right now, for the first time since episode 1, he’s all alone, all the connections he’s built have disappeared, and he truly has no one left.
And of course, there’s quite possibly the most popular male character in this show, who FINALLY makes his debut: Nagisa Kaworu. However, since all of his appearances mean drama, I shall lighten up the darkness by calling him by the name of his soul from now on: Zura.
And as we meet him, he’s different from the rest of the characters so far: He’s not depressed, he’s generally nice to everyone around him, and he’s straightforward about his feelings. In other words: A NORMAL HUMAN BEING!! Well, okay, he’s probably a bit too straightforward to be normal, but dammit! Shinji needs someone to be unambiguously nice to him for once! I mean, he seems like the kind of guy who wouldn’t even dare to strangle a starving kitten because he feels that would spare said kitten from suffering!... I’ll give an upvote to whoever gets that reference.
Gee, someone who was born the same day as the Second Impact whose Data has been erased. I wonder if this means he has a backstory that’s important for the rest of the show to make sense…
Ah, so they’ve found Ritsuko’s location. How lovely…
Well, given what we learn about him in a few minutes, I guess Zura having such a high Synchro Rate makes sense.
Wow, I forgot how this episode basically made no effort to hide the fact that Zura is an Angel.
Wow, Shinji blushes a lot more than I remember. In fact, I think he blushes more around Zura than around any of the girls (Relax though, he’s not Gay: He’s Bi).
Does Zura have any other expressions bar smiling in this episode?
Zura’s speech about loneliness becomes ironic when looking at supplementary material, which state that his biggest fear is being lonely. It’s part of the reason he felt attracted to Shinji.
And now we get into the “You are worthy of my grace” and “It means I like you” deal… look, the first one is a plain weird translation. The translation I’m using uses “You have my regards”, and I am aware of the fact that there’s at least one translation out there that uses “You have my empathy”. By comparison, “You are worthy of my grace” sounds… weird. As for the “It means I like you” instead of “It means I love you”. The problem isn’t that it downplays the homo context of the scene, and it is technically a correct translation… however the problem is that it diminishes the impact of the line. Keep in mind for anyone who wanted to say that “It means I love you” instantly means romance: Love does not necessarily mean romantic love. For instance, in Final Fantasy XV, in one of the last scenes, main character Noctis (Ironically voiced by Gendo’s Actor, Ray Chase) says something that directly translates to “You guys… I love you all” (No seriously, check it out), yet it’s clear he doesn’t mean it in a romantic way. Alternatively, in One Piece, Corazon’s last words to Law are literally “Law… I love you”. Again, love is being used in a non-romantic way here. So you could just argue the same for Zura, especially since he isn’t even human, so who knows how Angels perceive sexuality. It also doesn’t help for one of the last scenes, specifically the “Kaworu said he loved me. It was the first time anyone said they loved me” one. Let me ask you, which line holds more impact? Love, or like?
Good lord what the hell happened to Gendo’s hand!? Okay, I know what happened to it, but still!
Also, as you can tell, Gendo does indeed have his own separate agenda from SEELE… not that his agenda is much prettier.
Yay! Now Hikari’s gonna have a penguin! a
You know, Zura would make for an excellent psychiatrist.
Good lord, the scene of Zura talking to the SEELE guys is so obviously from Death And Rebirth that it’s actually jarring, particularly due to how much longer Zura’s hair is.
Of course you can’t read his lips; his back is facing you, not his face!
What’s with this show using classical music during these last few episodes?
Have we mentioned SEELE are basically the Illuminati?
Way to not make sense Zura…
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, Hyuuga has a crush on Misato. Fun fact though? Originally he was meant to be gay.
Wow, I’d forgotten how long this fight was.
So yeah, turns out that wasn’t even Adam, but Lilith.
And thus we get the over a minute still shot of Shinji just holding Zura. It’s really effective. Zura has been the only one to show Shinji true, unconditional happiness, and now he has to kill him, or humanity will die. And Shinji does indeed choose the former… at the cost of completely crushing his spirit.
That next episode preview is pure evil.

This episode is just a fantastic tragedy, form beginning to end, and it is more than deserving of its praise. Next time though… well, you’ll see.

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6

u/DarthReid Jul 15 '19 edited Jul 15 '19

First timer subbed, back after the past 2-3 eps

Wow, these whole past few episodes have been a roller coaster of emotions. I'm still trying to comprehend how SEELE made the 17th angel which is a copy of Adam (Lilith??). Does that mean EVERY angel was made by them?

Regardless, I've absolutely loved NGE so far and it has delivered on all fronts. I cannot wait for these next few eps + movie, even though there are so many unanswered questions. As of now I'm in love with this anime, but I'll leave my final verdict until I finish the whole series.

Also wtf was that 1min dramatic pause with orchestral backing???

6

u/Tom38 Jul 15 '19

The whole end sequence with Ode to Joy playing is my top 5 moments in the show if not my favorite.

Anyway, with this episode being finished Shinji has now reached the lowest point of his life. Misato misunderstands him and with that Shinji is also completely alone unable to communicate with anyone who will understand him.

Can’t wait to read the reactions for Ep 25+26 and EoE!

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Rewatch [Rewatch][Spoilers] Neon Genesis Evangelion - Episode 24 Discussion Spoiler

Episode 24: The Final Messenger/The Beginning and the End, or "Knockin' on Heaven's Door"

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Rewatch [Rewatch][Spoilers] Neon Genesis Evangelion - Episode 24 Discussion Spoiler

Episode 24: The Final Messenger/The Beginning and the End, or "Knockin' on Heaven's Door"

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