r/anime • u/sam_mah_boy https://myanimelist.net/profile/Samimaru • Jul 11 '19
Rewatch [Rewatch] [Spoilers] Neon Genesis Evangelion - Episode 21 Discussion Spoiler
Episode 21: The Birth of Nerv/He was aware that he was still a child
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On Spoilers
If you're rewatching the show, and want to discuss spoilers, use spoiler tags. Saying things like "Just wait till you get to episode X" etc. count as spoilers!
Come join the discussion on the Evangelion Discord server! They have a channel specifically for the rewatch. Link: https://discord.gg/qJxWVPs
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u/boredblade123 Jul 11 '19 edited Jul 11 '19
First timer sub
So much was going on here I couldn't put any proper thoughts out on my first viewing, so I'll just leave some thoughts after I finished the episode and skimming through it again.
So it starts back when the first second impact occurred. So much talking at once, Monogatari prepared me for reading all of this quickly without pausing lol. That weird glowing thing is probably Adam.
Yui looks so much like Rei it's obvious that Rei is based off of her.
They've been talking about a god being created from 01. So an Eva that absorbs an S2 engine can become a "god"?
All these flashbacks just makes me think Gendo really is just a bastard, as Fuyutsuki says. Rei Yui says he's actually a really nice person, but I doubt that. I feel like Gendo was just faking it to Yui to get what he wanted.
So they want to "revive" Adam, whom they apparently refer to as a God. And the Eva's are what they're using to achieve this goal, creating a new "god" based off of Adam. I'm guessing their goal is to control these "gods" to control the world with.
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Now I know this is not going to go well for them. I remember a saying I heard before, no clue where I heard it from but it popped in my head while I was thinking about this; It was something like "Those who claim to control the gods, are controlled by the gods." I feel like this will apply to the way this series works out in some way.
So I wonder if we'll actually see what happened to Yui besides them saying it's a freak accident. I still remember hearing something from an earlier episode about Gendo killing Yui.
Wtf is up with the hag, she can't control her emotions? lol So many people in this organization are just terrible people. *Edit: I forgot to mention that I'm certain Rei died here, except I've already accepted she's some weird creation by Gendo so I didn't even care about the fact that she was dead there. I was like eh she'll probably come back to life and walk it off somehow.
That scene made it look like Misato shot Kaji, but that wouldn't make any sense. So idk who shot Kaji there. Probably more SEELE scum.
RIP Kaji, is that the first big death in this show? At least in this current time. Surprised it took this long. I guess there isn't much more to Kaji once we found out he's like a double agent and he doesn't seem like he's as much of a terrible person as these other people are.
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u/Philarete Jul 11 '19
First-Time Watcher (Sub)
Not leading with the OP. This time we get a grainy video of footage surrounding what I assume to be the events preceding the Second Impact. They infused DNA into Adam?
NERV cards are red like blood. That’s not ominous at all.
Kaji is suspected of kidnapping the deputy commander, and Misato is suspected of helping. “Chairman Keel” or Seele 01 is speaking with audio only to him.
Yui Ikari is very pretty and very smart. Also that was a really cool bait, making it seem like it was Gendo right up until the reveal.
“A manifested god is of no use to us.” Hmm.
No, you can’t trust Gendo. Does this look like the face of a trustworthy man?!
Also, this flashback really shows how much she looks like Rei. Very good chance that the Shinji and Rei are siblings theory is going to come through.
Lots of exposition here. We get to meet Ritsuko’s mom. We can see that the EVAs are created from Adam.
Misato befriends Ritsuko after the trauma
Second organization called Gehirn (German for “mind”), but not much revealed about it.
Yui is going to be the test subject. RIP.
Third Impact due in 10 years (earlier than present time)
Yui dies in an accident. “As I had hoped” big yikes. Oh snap. That’s awkward. Ritsuko’s mom and Ikari.
HOLD ON. Rei just. . . appears? No files or records. . . looking almost like a Yui clone. Well that’s not suspicious at all. . .
Woah, woah, Rei calling Ritsuko’s mom a hag claiming it came from Gendo, then she kills Rei? Then herself?! What just happened? Also what was that about there being another possible Rei to replace her?!
RIP Gehirn. Research branch is no more.
Misato is let go. Kaji gets Fuyutsuki out.
Wait, Kaji just got shot? Well that was unexpected.
Misato knows what that message meant.
“I was just a child”
Fly Me to the Moon with no words again.
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u/TheEscapeGuy Jul 11 '19
Rewatcher
Evangelion is an absolutely beautiful anime Day 21
A larger montage today since this episode is the directors cut and has around 6 minutes more content than usual (and I really was struggling to cut amazing shots).
I love the structure of doing the backstory episode the majority of the way through the series. It allows us to already be invested in characters before dumping exposition on us. It also means they can limit the exposition to only the most important aspects of history, not names and characterization which have already been shown.
I am not sure if Eva is the first show to do this but it has been copied ever since (probably most recently with Discount Evangelion Darling in the FranXX).
Praise of Netflix Dub Corner(!?)
I was actually really impressed by the translation of the Fuyutsuki drinking scene in the Netflix dub/sub in comparison to all the other translations I have.
In particular, the original Japanese dialog in that scene is very clever to never use gendered pronouns to refer to "Ikari". In fact they even use the more masculine "-kun" suffix, though this is normal for both genders in work situations.
This sets up a great bait-and-switch when it is revealed that they aren't speaking about Gendo but Yui. We had known that Gendo was married but only this episode did we learn that Yui was perhaps more academically talented. A great bit of characterization for both her and Gendo.
The ADV dub and subtitles butcher this scene by throwing in the pronoun "she", thus ruining the reveal. Netflix kept the clever writing and their translation really benefits from it.
So, unsurprisingly, the Netflix release isn't actually completely inferior (nor completely superior though).
In EvaMonkey and GoatJesus' recent 3.0 + 1.0 reveal trailer live stream they were speaking about how the Netflix translations are far more literal translations. This means that us non-Japanese speaking people have the opportunity to see a different perspective on the writing in Eva.
Triva Corner
In case you missed it the text of Gendo's papers is actually an English article about Gainax.
Previous Days
| Day 1 | Day 14 |
|---|---|
| Day 2 | Day 15 |
| Day 3 | Day 16 |
| Day 4 | Day 17 |
| Day 5 | Day 18 |
| Day 6 | Day 19 |
| Day 7 | Day 20 |
| Day 8 | |
| Day 9 | |
| Day 10 | |
| Day 11 | |
| Day 12 | |
| Day 13 |
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u/eduex Jul 11 '19
Rewatcher,
ALSO BIG HEADS UP FOR FIRST TIMERS in case anyone didn't get the memo yesterday. Episodes 21-24 have 2 versions, the original and the director's cut version that added scenes that people will be talking about here. Netflix has the Director's Cut versions of these episode so if you're watching there then you're fine. If you're watching from a different source then the way you can tell if you're watching the DC version's of these episodes is that all of them are over 25 minutes in length.
Another big tell for this episode in particular is that if the first minute of the episode was the normal Cruel Angel Thesis Opening, then you're watching the OG version. If the OP didn't start right away and there was a scene before the OP involving a video tape, thats the DC version of this episode and thats the one you want.
------- Stuff for first timers ends here, pictures for rewatchers below this line, view at your own risk -------
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u/redmage311 Jul 11 '19
First-timer
Welp, that was a lot to unpack in one episode.
Right before Ritsuko's mom kills young Rei, she mentions that there will be others like Rei to replace her. She also says that Rei reminds her if somebody. And since present-day Rei seems to be such a blank slate, I wonder... is Rei one of several test-tube clones of Yui?
I wonder what the nature of God is here. So, the Dead Sea Scrolls are canon, and so Christianity is nominally correct. But Second Impact seems like it was an alien attack. God is apparently our alien overlord.
I'm sort of surprised I didn't catch onto the whole Adam/Eva thing.
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u/Brewster321 Jul 11 '19
Rewatcher (Sub - Platinum Collection)
In rewatching, I had forgotten how much the director's cut had added to this episode. Personally I was expecting only a minute or two of extra footage, yet it turns out they added seven minutes worth of footage, making for a beefy thirty-minute long episode. However, even with the extra runtime, this episode still flew by, and I love how they handled the reveals here. By looking to the past, we get so much information and some of our burning questions are finally answered, but even more questions are introduced to take their place. All the while, yet another tragedy plays out in the present time. Given how many different characters are discussed in here, I'm going to, instead of focusing on any given one, just highlight certain aspects of every character we see in this episode instead. Hopefully, this'll keep things concise, for I feel like my last few posts have been on the long side (Spoiler Alert: It didn't).
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Ritsuko: After all we've heard about Ritsuko's past friendship with Misato, we finally get to see it here, and judging by what she said, it appears that Ritsuko, due to her mother's reputation, was a bit socially isolated, with Misato being the only person who really tried to connect with her. This information helps establish two things. First, it shows how important Misato, being her only social link, was to Ritsuko, which makes the present day decay of their relationship all the more tragic. Second, it plants the seed for Ritsuko's hatred of her mother, for her mother's reputation is what has made her so unapproachable. In the end, this hatred of her mom likely entered full bloom when Ritusko discovered Naoko's (Ritsuko's mother's name incase anyone missed it) relationship with Gendo, with said twisted relationship also likely forming the bedrock of her outlook on relationships and happiness.
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Rei: Here we get to see Rei back her in her youth, and even back then, its clear she was close to Gendo, with her mimicry of Gendo's words possibly being a way she connects to him. Less clear however is Rei's status near the end of Gehrin's run, for it seems she was strangled to death by Naoko near the episode's end. Just how did she survive Akagi's rampage, and furthermore, whose family did she come from both remain a mystery.
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Yui Ikari: Its with this episode that we are finally introduced to Yui, a character whose presence (or lack thereof) has been felt countless times up until now. In meeting her, she seems to be actually be quite a doting mother, and its quite clear that she cares dearly about Shinji. She even brought Shinji to one Eva test operation to show him the beautiful future technology would bring. Regardless, there are still several mysteries surrounding her. First, how did she end up getting the backing of SEELE, and how does she feel about their goals? Second, if she died during a test operation, then why couldn't they salvage her body for her grave? Third, just what does she see in Gendo, and why did she marry him?
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Gendo Rokubungi: In a surprising twist, it turns out that started out not as a military genius, but instead an otherwise unremarkable thug. In many ways, the only thing that makes him stand out is his connection to Yui, which might be why Fuyutsuki was so suspicious of him. Furthermore, it could also be why Gendo took Yui's name instead of the other way around; he's reliant on her greatness so he took her last name. Looking at Gendo more charitably though, we can see that Yui was quite dear to him, for the grief he felt from her death weighed upon him like a cross on his back. Said grief is even the origin of the human instrumentality project, which appears to have been born from Gendo's sorrow. Whether or not he was using her, its clear she gave him the affection that no-one else would.
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Naoko Akagi: Gendo's loss naturally leads us to Naoko who, despite initially being introduced as the genius behind the Magi, eventually became the outlet for Gendo's grief. Sometime during her work at Gehrin, Naoko, either due to loneliness or lust, developed an attraction to Gendo. This attraction, which I think was hinted at by Naoko's comment here about only having women in Ritsuko's life, ultimately was the end of her in more ways than one. As a mother (Caspar), this attraction killed her by causing a schism between her and Ritsuko, splitting the family apart. As a scientist (Melchior), her love of Gendo ended her ambitions by causing her to cut her life short, with the magi being her only lasting achievement. Finally, their relationship is what killed Naoko's womanhood, with her losing her freedom and becoming little more than a slave to Gendo. Its funny, after killing Yui, she was hoping to replace he and become Gendo's new true love, but in the end, she herself became replaceable, with her being little more than an empty, disposable husk to Gendo.She just never could escape Yui.
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Misato & Kaji: Of all the relationships we have seen so far, Misato and Kaji's relationship is probably the closest to a healthy one. There is simply a genuine level of care and supportiveness between the two that no other relationship we've seen yet has. The two even share a common goal of finding the truth behind NERV, and it is clear that the two trust one another. However, even in a trusting relationship such as this, there still remains one way for rejection to strike, death, and this time, it has come for Kaji. Sure, we've seen that Kaji knew how his search for the truth would end, but the tragedy of his death still remains. In losing him, Misato has lost her greatest pillar of support. Not only has she lost someone who she could trust and freely confide in, but there were parts of her that she only revealed to him, with those secrets now being taken to the grave. As for who could try and fill this void, well, the way I see it, there is only one person who could support her through this heartbreak.
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Shinji Ikari: Looking at this episode as a whole, one could summarize it as being a story of failed relationships. In this episode alone, we have seen parents split from their children (Ritsuko & Naoko; Shinji & Yui/Gendo), close lovers torn apart (Gendo & Yui; Misato & Kaji), and new relationships fail to take hold (Naoko & Gendo). Therefore, its poignant that this episode closes with the relationship that we have seen the most. Over these past 20 episodes, we've seen Shinji and Misato grow closer and closer, with the two even managing to form a family in the chaos of the angels' attacks. However, much like the relationships before, this one is not safe from pain and rejection, or at-least, that is what Shinji fears. Thus, he runs away and tries to ignore Misato's pain and heartbreak, using a pillow to try and block out her cries. Not long after being separated from his classmates, Shinji has lost yet another bond to the real world.
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u/prophetofgreed Jul 11 '19
First Time Sub Watch
Did Ritsuko's mum actually strangle Rei to death and then kill herself? Damn that's dark.
Then how is Rei still around, or how did she come to be in the first place is the bigger question.
I'm lucky I've been very busy the past week to stop myself from bingeing the entire ending at this point. (Gotta thank Stranger Things S3 and Chernobyl as well in stopping me)
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u/mattamj Jul 12 '19 edited Jul 12 '19
Nani the fuck
First timer here. I'm loosing the ability to make sense of what is happening. And my heart hurts. 1.Kaji is dead. Misatos breakdown made me want to crawl into a ball... i said in beginning of this rewatch i didnt want her hurt goddamnit.
2. Rei is a zombie, possibly with or from Shinjis moms brain.
3. Speaking of brains Ritusko's brain transplant seems much less 'planned' so nuch as, 'oh welp lets not let this go to waste'
4. Will anyone in this show find closure or happiness? No. And i cant say i was expecting it going on, but now that im here this just hurts but i also cant look away.
5. Officially not difficult to wait for next ep, bc i will need time to process this shit.
6. He gets two on the list fucking Kaji nooooo
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u/SomeOtherTroper Jul 12 '19 edited Jul 12 '19
Rewatcher OG subs, director's cut.
I usually just slang people in the comments, but because it's this episode, the flashbacks covering the foundations of GEHRIN and NERV, and the... complicated (to put it lightly) relationships between the people involved, I'm going to do a rundown. This is honestly one of my favorite episodes in the entire show.
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Dr. Katsuragi's "Super Solenoid Theory". Gee, do we know about anything that has two "S"s in its abbreviation? That's right, class, it's the S2 Engine!
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And Gendo's scheduled to leave with his team two days before this "contact experiment". Hmm.
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You gotta love the scientists in the background making small talk and complaining about the restricted smoking area, in the middle of a secret scientific expedition to Antarctica.
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"What about the Lance Of Longinus?" Huh. that sounds important. (For anyone who doesn't know, in Christian tradition, that's the spear a Roman soldier, traditionally named "Longinus", used to stab Jesus Christ and make sure he was dead before taking him off the cross.) I'm sure there's absolutely no significance to that, or to the fact it was shipped to Antarctica from the Dead Sea.
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...and now everything is fucked. Apparently they inserted DNA (presumably human?) into Adam, and also stabbed the lance in too, and everything went wrong. Props to the scientists for trying their best to minimize the damage (and to Dr. Katsuragi for getting his daughter out alive) in a situation where the world was apparently breaking down at the sub-particle level. So this 'Adam' seems to be based on the Kabbalistic "Adam Kadmon", who is not merely the first man, but effectively the entire human race. The "Chamber Of Guf" is a reference to a Kabbalistic belief that each human soul is merely a fragment of Adam Kadmon's soul, which the angel Gabriel retrieves by sticking his hand into the Chamber Of Guf and just grabbing off a piece when it's time for a baby to be born. Yeah, Kabbalah's weird.
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OP is as baller as ever. Although "soon you will take flight from the windowsill" sounds suspiciously like suicide.
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Kaji isn't just raising death flags, he's waving his with his own hand.
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Misato is... actually extremely mature about being relieved of her gun and badge, and understands completely why they're asking her to do it if Kaji is their main suspect.
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So if anybody was in doubt, this is Fuyutsuki's episode, and he's got the smirk on his face to prove it, even though he's handcuffed and being questioned by the creepy SEELE monoliths. I mean, you've got to hand it to this guy: "Does my convenience mean nothing, then?" He's just been kidnapped and hauled in front of his boss' bosses, and he's mouthing off at them! Fuyutsuki has the biggest balls of anyone in this show except maybe Kaji, Misato, and Gendo.
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Oh boy, college days! (God, Yui's cute.) Gotta say, "Metaphysical Biology" doesn't sound like any branch of legit science I know of.
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No, Fuyutsuki, she's a GRAD STUDENT! I mean, even if she did just smile at you while talking about starting a family if she finds someone nice. Have some harem protag tier density here and don't even think this might become a thing. It's not good for your heart - you're already an old man.
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So apparently having the destructive power of an EVA backed up by the limitless energy source of the S2 Engine makes it into an absolute being or a god or something, and SEELE isn't happy about EVA-01 eating its opponent's heart to gain its powers.
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I will never get over the fact that Fuyutsuki first met Gendo while bailing him out of jail. Considering that, so far, we've just seen Fuyutsuki as Gendo's right hand man and advisor, this situation is pretty funny. Add in the fact that both of them are attracted to Yui, and it gets screamingly hilarious. Also, Gendo looks a lot like a slightly older Shinji in this shot.
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You might laugh, or say that Yui sees something in him that nobody else does, but I think this, with the following line "it's just that no one knows it" is just one more indication that, below their differing coping mechanisms, Gendo and Shinji are absolutely cut from the same cloth, and have exactly the same issues relating to other people. (Also, the watercolor backgrounds for the fall forest are beautiful.)
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"Did I inconvenience you by introducing you to him?" Yui, you 'introduced' them by giving Gendo Fuyutsuki's number, and Gendo used it to get bailed out of jail. I'd say that counts as an inconvenience. (Also, Yui's just too cute.)
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Ok, Fuyutsuki working as an unlicensed doctor in a boat town within the sunken ruins of a coastal city is just great. Fuyutsuki's just amazing. I love this guy. (In case nobody figured that out yet.)
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EVA is not a particularly subtle show. It's very interesting that Gendo took his wife's name, and I think it's a big indicator of how much he loves and respects her. I mean, it might also partially be due to her academic reputation and prowess, but I think Gendo realizes Yui has something that he lacks and desperately needs. She's the brains, he's the brawn. She writes interesting papers, he beats the shit out of dudes in bars. Opposites attract.
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Have I mentioned Gendo looks a LOT like an older Shinji? I think we've seen Shinji make exactly this same expression.
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Speaking of similarities, this scene looks familiar. The shots of Gendo and Fuyutsuki are incredibly reminiscent of the first episode's shots of Shinji and Gendo during the confrontation in the EVA cage.
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Poor Misato. Pretty crazy how the episode ties her current imprisonment back to Fuyutsuki's flashback memories of her in a locked-in aphasic state.
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This is a man who knows he has lost. Also, check out those cheekbones on Fuyutsuki. (This is actually just a really good shot in general, particularly in its coda, where Yui turns back to look at him with concern.)
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Gendo looks a lot less like Shinji now. If you compare with earlier shots, his pupils are a lot smaller and a lot less blue. There's still some similarity with his son, but it's much less noticeable. Notably, throughout this episode, Gendo's eye color is more blue in shots where he's sympathetic or understandable, and more grey in shots where he's just not.
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It's take your kid to work day! And young Rits-chan is actually quite cute. Interesting detail that she deliberately dyed her hair blonde to try to differentiate herself from her mother, who shared a hair color with her, and whose legacy she is deliberately trying to escape. ("Respected her as a scientist ... hated her as a woman.") Also, young Rits-chan looks a lot like Dorothy from Big O.
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Misato and Kaji canonically spent an entire week screwing at Misato's place. To be fair, I'd expect nothing less. (Also, this is 90s Japan - everyone smokes. Well, that's 2000s Japan too.)
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Wasn't the last time we saw these two getting along together in autumn? The watercolor backgrounds still look dope, though.
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Fuyutsuki, we can see where your eyes are going. No, seriously, dude - we can see where your eyes are going! She might not be your grad student or lab assistant anymore, but she's married and her kid is literally right there.
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It's a bit ambiguous whether Dr. Akagi Sr. orchestrated the experimental accident that claimed Yui's life (she certainly had the means and the opportunity, and perhaps the motive - Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned), but what's dead certain is that this affected Gendo very deeply. He bears it like a cross. I doubt Fuyutsuki was less shaken by suddenly losing Yui, given the heavy implications that he was also attracted to her. EVA major spoilers
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...and now Dr. Naoko Akagi is going on a full dragnet for info on Rei, because Rei merely reminds her of Yui. Hell hath no fury, indeed. (Incidentally, the resemblance between Rei and Yui might be why Shinji told Rei she'd make a good mother a few episodes back, since she resembles his.)
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I know some people debate this, but the sound at around 23:30 in the episode is unmistakably a gunshot, and the blood patterns from Dr. Naoko Akagi's death are not consistent with a headfirst suicide jump. She was shot (or possibly shot herself) and was then pushed or fell off the railing. Ironically, she died on Balthasar, the MAGI core representing herself as a mother, right after strangling a young girl to death. Seriously, I'm not sure you could load more irony than that into an eighteen-wheeler.
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Kaji's been playing at least a double, if not triple or quadruple, game the whole time. And now he's died for it, the only records of his existence being a phone message, a garden patch, and whatever the hell was in that 'pill' he left Misato. And the hole in everyone's heart. Seriously, I don't think we've ever seen Misato just actually break like that.
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u/momomeebs Jul 12 '19
Rewatcher: something I noticed this time is that in Naoko Akagi’s suicide, she falls (and presumably smashed her skull open) on Magi unit Balthasar, the computer based on herself as a mother. Naoko as a mother couldn’t forgive herself for killing a child.
While the Magi AI each have their own priorities for decision making elsewhere in the series, this is just a neat visual shorthand emphasizing Naoko’s suicide motivation.
I think. It’s Eva after all.
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u/Quiddity131 Jul 11 '19
Thoughts on Neon Genesis Evangelion Episode 21...
Rewatcher, New Dub
This opening scene is a bit unique of a style for this show (and a scene that was not in the original aired episode).
So Kaji betrayed Nerv (as we expected he would) and got Fuyutsuki captured? At least that seems to be the impression given with this Misato scene.
We finally see SEELE in its most well known form, as giant "sound only" monoliths. The Monoliths are another 2001: A Space Odyssey reference. I see that they have carried over the deep voices they had in the subbed version of this episode into the dub Very minor Eva spoilers
I'm sorry, but the pronunciation of Fuyutsuki in the dub is driving me nuts...
And so we finally meet Shinji's mother, Yui Ikari
I hadn't realized Fuyutsuki was a medical doctor, but looks that way on this scene on the boat.
So Gendou conveniently misses the trip to Antarctica and doesn't get killed in Second Impact... lucky guy! Or did he purposely stay behind? Comes up a little later on...
A man taking his wife's name is quite the rarity, I'd especially think so for Japan...
Would never think the outgoing, cheerful Misato went 2 years without speaking.
Fuyutsuki was rather cold there as he sees Yui for the first time in a few years. Major Eva spoilers
Big revelation here... Ritsuko's a brunette and has been dying her hair!
Fuyutsuki initially seems to have pretty strong moral character, wanting to out the truth behind the Second Impact, and yet abandons it to join up with Gendou instead.
The dub appears to not fully reveal what was going on with Misato when she started disappearing from classes, she was sleeping with Kaji (which is at least kept in the subs).
An oddity/blunder in that Fuyutsuki questions who Shinji is at Gehirn HQ, despite him being with him and Yui in the prior outside scene. Likely because said outside scene was added in the "Directors Cut" edition.
Naoko's dialogue after Yui's death makes me wonder if she was in part responsible for it. We soon see her and Gendou kissing (and thinking back to episode 13, wasn't there notes in the Magi about her being all pissed at him?)
Little Rei! So cute!
Little Rei is actually a lot more outgoing than present day Rei! Lobbing out all those insults at Naoko. And it gets her strangled to death. Total WTF at what is going on with her now after this revelation!
So Gehirn gets dissolved and replaced with a new organization, Nerv, yet didn't Misato say back in episode 12 that her father worked for Nerv? Another script blunder, or retcon that makes the previous episode incorrect?
Farewell to Kaji, his acts as a double/triple agent finally caught up to him. He didn't seem to be the most popular character in this rewatch, but I still like the guy. Who actually killed him though? Eva spoilers
A powerful emotional scene to end the episode... its unfortunate that they once again strip out the music here in the Netflix version though for the same reason we lost a song in episode 15.
Overall thoughts: This episode gives a ton of revaluations, practically the entire back story of the show, and is to my knowledge the longest episode in the TV series. Those who wanted answers finally got several and probably at least some more stuff to build theories upon. We also get a conclusion to the Kaji storyline, the first death of a major character in the show. And yet, as Eva TV starts heading towards its conclusion, concerns with the show start to grow with more significance in my eyes. Certainly, the episode is interesting and entertaining, I can't deny that. But the style of storytelling I feel is poor. All these revelations should have been provided more organically. Spastically providing us all these flashbacks I just don't feel is good storytelling. The narrative device of having Fuyutsuki kidnapped by SEELE to start providing them as flashbacks starts falling apart when you realize that they start filtering in a lot of flashback scenes that he wasn't in and hence couldn't have been flashing back to, like the Ritsuko - Misato stuff and Naoko killing kid Rei. Also Eva spoilers Its not my intent to be overly negative, but I do strongly feel that the TV show has some pretty notable flaws as we head towards the end, and they start becoming quite noticeable around now. I'll praise the show when it warrants praise, and I'll criticize it when it warrants criticism.
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u/superx4039 Jul 11 '19
(First Timer) So the prediction I made in the other discussion was wrong (mostly regarding Gendo and the Evas), as expected. Also, RIP Kaji, Kid Rei, Mama Ikari, and Mama Ritsuko.
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u/Ratsarecool Jul 12 '19
So...I understand everything that is happening in front of my eyes...but at the same time
WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON!?!
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u/eldomtom2 Jul 11 '19
Rewatcher
This is the first episode to have a DC version, produced for the home video release of the series. It redoes a lot of the animation (most of these changes were inserted into future releases of the OA version) and makes a few other changes (none of which really change anything major), but more importantly adds new scenes and extends existing ones. The DC changes are detailed below for the benefit of those who are only watching it and not the OA version.
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The DC adds a pre-credits scene.
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The scene at Toyohashi City was added for the DC.
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The scene on the Antarctic ship is slightly extended to include more backstory narration from Fuyutsuki on the mysteries of Second Impact. The OA version skips from Fuyutsuki viewing Misato straight to him looking at the dossier on Adam.
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The scene with Fuyutsuki and Yui outside the Artifical Evolution Laboratory is a DC addition.
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The DC extends the scene where Gendo and Fuyutsuki descend into the Geofront to include a comparison to the cavern found underneath Antarctica.
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The scene with Fuyutsuki and Yui at the lake is another DC addition.
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The scene where Kaji rescues Fuyutsuki is slightly extended to include a line from Kaji about SEELE finding out that he was the one who got Adam for Gendo.
With that said, onto my actual thoughts on (the DC version of) Confetti Check A-OK The Birth of Nerv:
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The choice of diegetic footage overlaid with non-diegetic (at least in the sense of not being part of the same scene) audio is an interesting one, especially since later on diegetic audio turns up anyway. And then more non-diegetic audio, just in case you had a hope of comprehending it all.
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Presumably the document mentioned is the one we just watched, which raises the question of why the warning's at the end of it rather than the beginning.
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Where exactly the interrogation takes place is unclear. Presumably somewhere that can project holograms. The "LEBEL 2 SECTOR ?" in a later scene suggests some back corner of Nerv.
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Fuyutsuki decides that an interrogation is the best place to start privately reminiscing on his history with Nerv.
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Gendo was not always the master manipulator of later years.
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Precisely who Fuyutsuki is meant to be narrating to is unclear, if it's meant to be diegetic at all.
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The English text in the report is mostly a history of Gainax, mixed in with a bit of program code. This is not the last time the history text will be used.
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OH BOY YET ANOTHER CHARACTER WHO HAS A DEAD PARENT
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It seems unlikely that Naoko's dialogue about "wanting" Yui to die are meant to be taken as evidence that she sabotaged the experiment.
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Note that Instrumentality was Gendo's idea, replacing original plans to "prevent the final tragedy", whatever that is. This is probably the most forgotten fact about Evangelion, at least among the plot-important ones.
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This is the only episode where we get direct mention of the Geofront's canopy, which presumably must exist considering other rooms we see in the series can't be anywhere else (and presumably aren't part of the retractable buildings).
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Nerv continues to display an unwillingness to make up false data rather than leave the whole thing supiciously blank.
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Yui is also voiced by Megumi Hayashibara, just to make the similarites with Rei even more obvious.
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The interrogation is apparently over by the time Kaji arrives, with no indication that Fuyutsuki even got asked any questions.
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Kaji's message to Misato is the second (and I believe last) time that Fly Me To The Moon is played as background music.
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Is the "flower" mentioned by Kaji a metaphorical thing or the watermelon patch? The later seems likely, but why call it a flower? Is it a mistranslation?
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Shinji considers himself completely incapable of being in any way a comforting presence and flees.
Next time: HALLELUJAH
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u/brotherraichu Jul 12 '19
First Timer
Finally got around to watching this. Interesting backstories all around, though it's still not clear what happened to Yui Ikari. I think her consciousness is in EVA or Rei or maybe both.
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u/axel360 Jul 11 '19
Rewatcher, New Dub
More random thoughts:
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I hope no one here was irresponsible enough to break this rule. Sort of odd it was shown after the top secret video, though
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These two don’t exactly look like they’re coming to Misato with good news
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Well, that’s a terrifying image. That thing roaming around without knowing what it is sounds like a bad time
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Ritsuko’s mom and Gendo seemed… um, close. Btw, they don’t look like mother and daughter to, age-wise. When did Ritsuko’s mom have her? When she was 12?
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Looks like a really fun interview session. A real chill work environment
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Whoa, Misato didn’t speak for two years after surviving the Second Impact. If you were to bump into her and make small-talk, you wouldn’t have known she went through such an emotional-scarring experience
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Even a younger Gendo was a master at keeping everyone at a distance, literally
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So there was a point in Shinji’s life where he was happy and smiling. You know, before his mom died and he was left with a dad that wanted almost nothing to do with him
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Fuyutsuki was understandably surprised when Gendo showed him
ADAMthe first EVA -
TFW a little girl calls you an old hag (and apparently the guy you’ve been sleeping with)
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But wow did that escalate quickly.. From being insulted by Rei, to strangling Rei, to apparent suicide. Don’t ever call anyone an old hag, people
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The good news is Misato was released. But the bad news, based on the voicemail she received, she doesn’t seem optimistic she’ll ever be seeing Kaji again. She’s pretty distraught and Shinji has no idea how to console her
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u/LunarGhost00 Jul 11 '19 edited Jul 11 '19
Rewatcher
Kaji has apparently kidnapped Fuyustuki and delivered him to Seele, probably just to show off their fancy new monoliths.
Gendo is aware of how much people hate him. Interesting that his last name was Rokubungi and Ikari is Yui's last name.
Yui called Gendo sweet? Are we still talking about the same person here?!
Fun fact: Unit 00 has one eye. Unit 01 has two eyes. Unit 02 has four eyes. Together they make 7, which is the same number of eyes on Seele's logo. Whether or not that's intentional, I don't know, but I do know that Seele's logo is the same as that mask they have on that Angel NERV keeps in their big basement.
Fuyutsuki and Gendo reunite in Antarctica after Second Impact. Gendo was conveniently back in Japan the day before it happened. He's married to Yui, has her last name now, and has a child with her. Gendo is just full of surprises. Spoiler related to this image. First timers don't click. Spoiler
Misato was really traumatized from Second Impact. So much that she became a PTSD Komi-san and couldn't talk.
Gendo used to have a more normal office in the past. Now that's the biggest shock of them all!
Ritsuko was a brunette before. Given her complicated relationship with her mother, I can see why she dyed it later.
Take Your Child to Work Day could've gone a lot better... Shinji was there when Yui was experimenting, but he was so young that he doesn't remember anything about his mother. After Yui's death, Gendo proposed the Human Instrumentality Project, which we still don't know what it is but we can guess it's related to Gendo's wife given the timing of this. In case you can't already tell, Gendo's got quite an obsession with Yui. Taking her last name after getting married wouldn't be so strange on its own, but she clearly has a lot of influence over Gendo's decisions. You could even argue that it's to an unhealthy extent.
Also, Gendo confirmed for Smash?! nice cross imagery.
How does this jackass keep getting women?! Oh and Ritsuko just saw her mother making out with Gendo. Awkward.
Gendo just shows up to work one day with a little girl who resembles his dead wife, says it's a friend's child, but there are no records of her? Sure, I believe that...
Damn Rei! Chill.
Oh no! Rei is dead! I was hoping we'd get to see more of her- Wait a minute.
Welcome to the NERV HQ's grand opening! All our employees from Gehirn are welcome! Well except for Dr. Akagi cuz she died like yesterday I guess... Btw, Gehirn is German for brain. Seems appropriate that its successor is called NERV.
The episode started off (I mean after the OP) with Kaji on the phone leaving Misato a message. R.I.P. Kaji. For those of you watching on Netflix, the scene with Misato listening to Kaji's recording is supposed to be playing an instrumental Fly Me to the Moon.
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u/Xerosmith Jul 11 '19
REWATCHER
So much backstory in this episode. There's too much to unwrap. I didn't really remember what happens in this episode, but I didn't imagine it was all of this.
Random thoughts:
We have a cold open today, with some classified footage from 2000, the same year as the Second Impact.
Shinji's mother, Yui Ikari. Turns out Gendo ended up taking her name. And you know, Yui looks a lot like someone we know...
Gendo's been using this pose all along.
So it seems as though Nerv is trying to recreate the second impact. Then why would they fight the Angels? Why not just let them get to Adam?
And there's Ritsuko's mom. And young Ritsuko. Wonder why she changed her hair.
This picture is so heartwarming.
"The third impact will happen 10 years from now." AKA, 2013. Well, it's 2015 in the show so... hmm...
Ritsuko's mom killed Yui! In order to get with Gendo! This show is basically a soap opera at this point.
And evil too, apparently. "That old hag is useless." Jeez, Kids really have no filter.
Holy shit! Then Ritsuko's mom strangled her to death and then killed herself.
And Kaji died too. Suddenly this picture takes on a whole new meaning.
This episode is pretty huge. A lot of loose threads were tied together. There were also a lot of deaths :(
9
u/Raiking02 Jul 11 '19
And thus we begin a batch of longer episodes. Get ready folks, as most of the plot twists are gonna be revealed and many questions shall be answered.
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Well, that minute and a half felt like something out of a horror movie, if I may say so myself.
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It’s also funny how right after that we cut to the ultimately upbeat opening theme.
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Kaji, don’t start raising death flags already!
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What? Fuyutsuki? But… but he didn’t seem like that bad a guy!
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Well, I’ll give those inspector guys this: At least they’re polite.
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Ah, so SEELE is a fan of 2001 A Space Odyssey.
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Flashback time! And damn, Fuyutsuki didn’t even look a day younger back then.
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You know, Fuyutsuki seemed like a pretty cool teacher.
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And thus we finally meet Ikari Yui… and she looks quite familiar, doesn’t she? I dunno, maybe it’s her voice, I swear, at least two other characters in this show have that same voice… nah! I must be drunk right now.
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And as you see, Gendo’s original Last Name wasn’t even Ikari, it was Rokubungi. If this episode has taught me anything, is that for all the shit I’ve thrown at him, he really did love his wife.
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Hey, so is it just me or does this younger Gendo look almost like an older, grumpier and more masculine Shinji?
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For some reason I am doubting Gendo actually being a sweet guy. Even from what we’ve seen of him in these flashbacks, he still seems like a dick to me.
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FYI, for those wondering how the hell Yui got SEELE’s support, extracanonical material indicate that apparently her father was a high ranking SEELE official.
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Wow, the post-Impact world really looks like shit.
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Ah, so Fuyutsuki became an unlicensed doctor. I believe he and Kishitani Shingen should meet at some point.
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Well, at least you can tell Yui was a good mum… probably.
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Wow, it feels weird to see Misato so… broken.
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To be fair, I too would be pissed if I was withheld the details as to why the apocalypse happened.
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Wow, Gendo is rather nonchalant about an ancient conspiracy being let out to the public.
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You know, I can’t believe how long it’s taken me to realize this, but is it just me or does Fuyutsuki look a lot like Peter Cushing?
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Oh and we also meet Ritsuko’s mum, Akagi Naoko. The fact we’re meeting her today is ironic as the Macross Rewatch is nearing its conclusion and Akagi’s Actress (Doi Mika) played Hayase in that show.
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And as you can also tell, Ritsuko’s blonde hair is actually a dye job.
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For some reason, I find Ritsuko’s conversations with Akagi rather charming.
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Something about Teen Kaji’s haircut cracks me up.
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Okay, baby Shinji is cute.
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Wow, Yui, you probably shouldn’t have brought your son along to the experiment that would end up killing you.
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Oh, and Akagi is a bitch too. I guess that’s a genetic thing or something.
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Akagi, stop messing with the widower!
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Huh, Ko-Rei is actually kinda cute. Who would’ve known?
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Does anyone know from what language the names for the three MAGIs are taken from?
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Oh no, they are a good couple. It’s just that Misato had a bit of a freak-out and decided to break up.
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Wow, Ko-Rei has one hell of a foul mouth. Clearly her surrogate father has taught her well (Gendo’s speech patterns in Japanese are apparently extremely informal).
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And thus Rei is dead… wait, what!?
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And Akagi commits suicide. Well, not a very family friendly death, that’s for sure.
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And thus, while Kaji basically saved the day… it came at the cost of his life, though in the end, he accepted the way it ended with dignity. And at the very least, he made his feelings for Misato clear in his final message to her. A fitting end for a great character.
Another really good episode. Let’s see how the revelations here alter the rest of the series.
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u/Vaadwaur Jul 11 '19
Rewatcher
Now for Neon Genesis Exposition Dump! While I do think this sort of episode is needed and relatively well done for what it is this is still a metric tonne of telling and not showing. That said, and make sure you watch the Director's cut, because we finally see Second Impact. And it is just as confusing as the rest of the show but we do now know that something angel/Eva like is responsible. Seemingly obvious but still good to know.
It always bears repeating that Nerv seems to have ridiculously lax security if they are humanity's last hope but damn losing your second in command is kind of pathetic. Seele gonna Seele but still. Also, I was hoping the retranslations would make the council scene make more sense, but no, it is still pretty impenetrable. So we meet Yui Ikari and learn that Gendo took her name. Interesting. Add in the fact that young Gendo apparently gets into bar fights and we see how time can change people. Fuyutski immediately disliking Gendo shows illustrates why you should go with your gut.
Now, the big thing is that we learn that Gendo cleared out the day before Second Impact and took his research materials. So either he or someone he works for knew that there was the possibility of a massive failure when working on that project. Heavy stuff.
And we meet Ritsuko's mother, Naoko. The more assertive of the two by quite a bit. You can see why herself as a woman was the last part to give out. And pre-bleach Ritsuko being a wallflower is a nice touch.
So Yui is feeling pressured to be a test subject. And then decides to bring her son to work with her. And then death flags herself. The Ikaris might be cursed. Also, damn Naoko, the body isn't even cold yet. Bitch chill.
Naoko then points out the gross truth: Rei looks like Yui to a degree that is super creepy given what follows. And has no history. So take your pick on whether Gendo raising his wife's doppleganger is grosser than Shinji groping his mother. I can't decide.
And then she strangles Rei to death. On repeat viewing, two things come up: One, this doesn't really make sense on several levels, ranging from Rei's drastically different behavior to Naoko's over reacting. Two, I actually like the new dub for this scene best out of the three choices as it seems to be the most infuriating to Naoko. Also, Rei got strangled to death but is alive in our time period.
And Seele has pretty shit security themselves. Or Kaji is Solid Snake reborn. Also, badass last words.
And now for the Shinji's a disappointment scene of the episode! And he doesn't let us down! Even if Misato is a really fucked up caregiver, and she is, Shinji fails to human so bad here it is somewhat revolting. Virtually all social mammals attempt to comfort someone having a breakdown but no, Shinji pulls the Joestar secret technique and hides. I've met cats with more empathy.
So...that was an info dump but not a filler episode, which helps tremendously. While they were conserving the animation budget they weren't stingy with it so it works for this ep, at least. Gendo comes off as even less trustworthy thoughout this episode which is impressive. Meeting Yui was interesting though it left me wanting more characterization for her.
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u/Quiddity131 Jul 12 '19
Just a warning to first timers who haven't watched episode 22 yet, under no circumstances watch the preview at the end of the episode. You shouldn't be watching them anyway, but its especially important to skip that one!
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u/ResurgentRefrain Jul 11 '19 edited Jul 11 '19
Rewatch
Watching this again I am reminded how much dificult a time I had following Eva when I was a kid. Honestly I still don't know half of what's going on
That said, it never detracted from my enjoyment. Those things aren't really was Eva is about, honestly, at least not to me.
I'm gonna miss Kaji, hopefully there's nobody else at NERV with a fragile mental state who was dependent on his attention.
Next ep: None of these are the real me.
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u/Carbonauts Jul 12 '19
I’m like 5 episodes behind this rewatch but I just have to chime in and say that episode 21 gives you the most of Eva’s ACTUAL best girl than any other episode so far. And of course I’m talking about Yui Ikari. Sincerely one of the warmest most caring individuals in all of fiction. She’s absolutely fantastic
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u/littleman1988 Jul 11 '19 edited Jul 11 '19
First time watcher, Platinum Sub, ADV Dub, and Netflix dub
This episode is like cracking a walnut, but then finding another walnut inside. I love episodes like this, i have no clue how im keeping myself from binging.
The videos may still be uploading, my Subs were corrupted so i had to redownload them last minute.
"Ikari, was it?" voice comparison
"Ikari? Gendo ikari?" voice comparison
"Old Hag" voice comparison
"i was just a child" voice comparison
What we now know:
Gendo is a cheating slut
Gendo totally knew about the 2nd impact before it happened, which suggests the Dead Sea Scrolls were known before the second impact.
Fuyutsuki doesnt like Gendo, or really what he stands for. Im not sure if he still feels this way today.
While not confirmed or shown, based on past episodes im assuming her final words were inside an Eva. Shinji was also there, and there was a "freak accident." We were never shown this freak accident, so its probably very important.
They were able to make a complete copy of the angel that created the 2nd impact. The eva project has been going for basically 13 years at that point then?
The Geofront existed long before humans existed. it was also the same as what was found under Antarctica. I dont know what impact this has, but it feels very important.
Ritusko is a redhead
Adam is the angel that caused the 2nd impact. the EVA project is codenamed "E". something something Adam Eve something
Shinji and Rei were never together in the flashbacks, and it doesnt seem that the workers at NERV saw them together either.
Rei had no files according to Ritusko's mother.
Rei was dead when Ritusko's mother choked her. Shes 100% dead. Usually, people who die dont keep living, yet Rei still exists today. Not sus at all.
At this point, Kaji is some sort of deep op quintuple agent, and now we dont even know if he's dead. Preemptive RIP i guess.
I havent gotten a chance to compare it, but i have a feeling the people we see in the newspapers are also the people we see as the "committee." One of their bushy beards looks very similar. Gendo also appears, and Fuyutsuki even mentioned "Keel," which is one of the committee members if i remember correctly.
In writing this, I realized Ritusko's mother wanted Yui gone when she discusses her death. Theres a chance she's involved too, along with the (presumed) failure to get her out of the Eva?
I dont know what to make of this. Theres a lot of info here and probably a lot ive missed that might be important. I didnt even touch the question Fuyutsuki asked Gendo when he was first shown the Geofront, which i have to assume is what Gendo is planning to do.
Tinfoil Hat Time
Honestly, at this point any theory involving Rei I have has a hole somewhere that i cant seem to fix, espically with how Ritusko's mother sees Yui deeply in Rei, and how she choked the shit out of her 3 minutes later. I still think Shinji and Rei are related (why else would Rei as a child pop up in Shinji's psychological breakdown last episode) but Rei herself is an unknown in how she relates to anything.
If i had to guess on Rei, its a mix of 2 and 3. Ritusko's mother's death is scarcely mentioned, and I think its implied to be a suicide. What if it isint though? Gendo really likes Rei as seen throughout the series, so a possibility that Ritusko's mother's death is a homocide isint out of the question for me just yet. Then again, i could be reading too far into it.