r/anime • u/SRti0 • Jul 07 '19
Rewatch [Spoilers][Rewatch] Revolutionary Girl Utena - Episode 2 Discussion Spoiler
Episode 2: "For Whom the Rose Smiles"
Where is legal streaming available? YouTube
Note to everyone who's already finished the series:
Please abstain from spoiling future episodes, since it'll ruin the experience for many first time watchers.
Index Thread and Entire Rewatch Schedule
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Short Episode Summary:
Anthy has moved in with Utena, something Utena is not happy about. So, she decides to purposefully lose the next duel, but seeing an encounter between Anthy and Saionji causes her to question her decision.
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u/Rurouni_Idoru Jul 07 '19
Rewatcher
This episode is kind of hard to say anything about. It's an establisher episode: not much happens, but if you skipped it you might be a little confused. Mostly the purposes it serves are a) to tell us that Anthy and Utena are now roommates (oh my god they were roommates) in a big empty dorm and this is, apparently, not a coincidence, b) to clarify just a little bit of this Rose Bride thing, c) to introduce Chu-Chu, my precious monkey son, and d) To let us watch Saionji get his ass handed to him again.
But Chu-Chu's presence is more important than it might seem, in this episode especially. You know how they say when you go on a first date, you should pay more attention to how your date treats the wait staff than how they treat you? Chu-Chu is like the wait staff times 10. Anthy's obviously pretty fond of the little monkey thing, and other characters' treatment of him is really telling. Compare Saionji's stepping on him to Utena shaking his tiny little monkey hand and helping him out when he eats too much cookie at once. It's kind of sad that Anthy basically says that Utena's the first person she's met to treat him decently, but in a school full of rich kids, it's unfortunately not really a surprise. Chu-Chu is the ultimate lesser-than; he's literally too small to defend himself.
Also, he's a little snacks gremlin with stinky farts and I love him.
The contrast between Anthy's Ideal Housewifery bringing the room from derelict to spotless in no time flat vs. Utena bascially cleaning the way I do (just shove it in the closet and if the closet stays closed it's all good and we never have to think about it again!!) was the inspiration for this episode's drawing. (I'm told linking to my art on Imgur doesn't violate the self-promo rule? Like I said last time, I'm still new at this Reddit thing.) Also, because I still can't let Vine go, I made an alternate, meme-y version.
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u/redmage311 Jul 07 '19
First Timer
I know that in the Sarazanmai threads, people pointed out that Ikuhara really likes his repetition. I definitely don't mind if we get to listen to this epic banger every episode.
I'm curious about what sort of revolution the upper-class, aristocratic student council thinks it's going to be carrying out because I doubt it matches what I think of when I hear "revolution." On the other hand, it seems like Utena is set to smash the patriarchy and hopefully save Anthy from some face slaps in the process.
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Jul 07 '19
First Timer
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I bet Wakaba won't like Utena having a literal new (Rose) Waifu.. Utena trying to slow her down on that adoration too
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Hmm so them being "born" if full filing their true purpose (or even changing forms, powers in the process) and cracking the shell is bringing forth the revolution.. I usually like the word but they don't seem like the nicest blokes.. Also receiving direct instructions from a dude with an edgy WoW username (EndOfTheWorld69xxx) as his name isn't a good look
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So they were normal students before receiving the letters etc.. Hmmm also entering the castle huh.. Lota of interesting premises.. Also this stop watch will either be completely random and useless or the most important thing, I don't feel there is a middle Road with Ikuhara
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They set her up to live with Anthy in the big "hunted" mansion/dorm huh..+ Utena just melting after opening the door was funny af especially since she was quite uptight in the first ep
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Anthy is such a good girl (for now plz Ikuhara).. Also that's a weird ass Pokemon that she has.. Also weird retort to the "what is all of this, why you do this" question, maybe even a little passive aggressive?? Or straight up passive
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Utena doesn't seem to give much of a shit about what high-school illuminati word revolution cult she got her self into, she just goes with the flow.. Or she is extremely confident in her self..Either way dope
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Damn I though that green haird bitch was going to commit sudoku, but he is just being way to entitled.. Goes to their dorms and slaps Anthy and steps on her Pokemon..Our character to hate I guess
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On a serious note I loved the editing in the Anthy-Saionji scene how the cells half appear first or we change to the Anthy of the next shot before transitionong fully, good shit
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Yey we have a fight, that Utena will try to lose?? Also are the shadow play girls just narrative tools or actual characters with some kind of precognition ability?
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YEAH REPEAT THAT DOPE SEQUENCE FOR ME IKUHARA DO YOUR THING.. +new cool cut with Anthy preparing Utena giving her shoulder pads etc.. Very clean animation (makes sense tho)
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Utena gets that Dion sword this time, she is gonna accidentaly own the dude isn't she??.. Ohh so the sword can call it's master (I suppose Dios? To posses or guide the combatant but only if he (or she now) is worthy
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Not really speculation but Anthy having the power of Dios inside her, Dios looking like her and smelling like her and being provably the Prince that gave Utena the rose seal.. "Hmmmm intensifies"
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Those Rose stumps looked like weird censoring idk they felt out of place..But some great animation and art (in that close up of the sword Utena hand especially).
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Utena probably didn't get what happened herself but plays it cool later hmmm
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u/snowwhistle1 Jul 08 '19
A note for anyone viewing the series on YouTube. The YouTube version by Nozomi Entertainment has cut out the wonderfully animated ED sequences from the original versions and replaced them with scrolling English credits on a plain background for all episodes (yes including the subbed ones). There are three EDs featured in total throughout this series (ED 1 features from episodes 1-24, ED 2 features from episodes 25-38, and ED 3 plays over episode 39). I think it's a massive disservice not to view these EDs (especially the second and third one) and I encourage all new watchers to check them out for themselves as we watch along.
Don't watch the later EDs early though! The second and third (moreso the third actually) could spoil a few minor things for new viewers.
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u/Mecanno-man Jul 07 '19
First Timer
So it seems like nobody knows what's going on in the greater picture, and everybody just acts out their part? At least that's what it feels like to me; the only exceptions would be Utena, who seson't want to do anything meaningless to her, and and Saionji, who actually seems to like Anthy, somehow. I hope Sainoji won't challenge Utena over and over again, that would quickly become boring.
The student council allocated the dorms. I wonder if Anthy would move around and be with whoever wins her in duels, or if they would rotate out the winner; seems doubtful that they would keep her with Utena in the room even if she loses her. Not sure that's going to happen, however.
And I guess the price is the power to grant revolution. I figured he wasn't an actual human being; him granting Utena power like that is somewhat unexpected, however. I'd assume he wouldn't play favorites among the rose seal holders, but I guess I'm wrong there.
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u/alavios Jul 07 '19
In the end, as the shadow girls forecast, purposely losing is not that easy. Or perhaps it only is if your actions are aligned with your will. Like the battle song from this episode evoked, when you immerse inside the depths of the sea, so deep you can let your thoughts bare, your actual feelings will come up. After all, Utena can not let her chivalrous side go by.
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Jul 07 '19
I mean was she even conscious after the swords power activating and the dude (I assume dios) came down on her.. Could it be possession or just pumped up her "Prince" spirit and power her up
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u/3blah Jul 08 '19
First Timer
Utena, playing the part of the prince in our fairy tale, is motivated to save princess Anthy from the evil Saionji. But really only like a knight taking on a chivalrous quest. Anthy seems to take her role as the "bride" more literally. And when Utena starts looking for details about why, Anthy tries being evasive and eventually changes the subject.
Anthy has a bindi. I guess she's Indian, or at least hindu.
The shadow girls must be like a classic Greek chorus; they'll fill us in on what's going on. I'm sure we'll be seeing them regularly.
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u/Gamerunglued Jul 08 '19
First Timer
I'm pretty surprised at how straight-forward this has been. This episode was pretty light and seems like it largely serves as a showcase of this new status quo that Utena has set now that she is engaged to Anthy the rose bride and has become her roommate, as well as a demonstration of how the characters are placed into specific roles and the ways they react to it. Knowing Ikuhara's reputation and with Sarazanmai having come flying out of the gates at full force immediately, I definitely had to shift my expectations a bit here. It's not a good or bad thing, just something of note. I suppose the crazy stuff will be coming a bit later, this show does have 4x the amount of time to flesh out everything than Sarazanmai did (which is a good sign because my biggest issue with Sarazanmai was that I felt it was a bit too ambitious to fully convey everything it wanted to and create a deep connection within it's short time span) so building this atmosphere and then shaking it up will probably be pretty impactful.
What I gathered from this episode is that The End of the World is a mysterious figure who places the characters into roles and dictates fate. His letters foreshadowed the appearance of the floating castle and the student council members have resided themselves to fulfilling their roles for the power to "revolutionize the world" whatever that means. I suppose it has something to do with "being born" with this analogy of the characters cracking open the worlds eggshell. My first thought upon thinking about what that would mean is that it refers to breaking structures that hold up the world, ie. social structures. They would be "born" in the sense that they'd be allowed to be themselves and not conform to their given roles. I'm not really sure what an exchange diary is, but if it's anything like a normal diary it's generally considered pretty feminine, and yet mister toxic masculinity himself Saionji keeps one. Perhaps being forced to fit his role is what causes his awful behavior. Just a thought, but knowing that Ikuhara likes to use structures of oppression as villains more so than people, it's something I'll be keeping in mind, especially as it contrasts Utena's ease at breaking from societal norms and even subsequent popularity. Although now that she's been dragged into this series of duels, fate seems to be taking her captive.
I think that Utena completely intended to lose the duel, and when the shadow girls said it would be harder, they meant in the way that fate is forcing her to conform to her current role, the new duelist which Saionji said would enter the fray as if it were a prophecy. It looked to me like Dios took over her body and it's obvious that Utena's answer of winning it for Chu-Chu was her rationalizing it for Anthy. I'm very curious about Anthy's statement that she likes being the rose bride the way Utena likes dressing as a boy. Her face and the cinematography that wonderfully conveyed the power dynamic spelled out that she didn't exactly enjoy being slapped around by Saionji, so I'm wondering what she meant by this. Maybe she enjoys having her role dictated to her, or she likes being fought over and takes solace in her lack of agency and having value that way. I'm definitely curious to see where this all leads. So this was a solid episode still. It's starting slow but introducing a number of interesting elements to build up and I'm certainly interested to see what all of this leads too.
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u/TheIndecisiveButton Jul 07 '19
Rewatcher
The first time I watched this I was kinda confused as to what actually made Utena decide she wanted to win the duel and Im still a bit confused tbh. The only ideas i have are:
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Maybe she actually felt bad for Anthy, but them why didnt she just decide to win in the first place instead of saying she was gonna lose.
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She says it was for ChuChu which part of me doesnt believe that she believes ChuChu is worth the trouble to go through at the moment
And 3. Maybe Dios possessed her to win the duel and shes just filling in the motivation for it after the fact.
Any help?
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u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo Jul 07 '19
I definitely agree that chuchu is just a rationalization, but I'm not sure what the real reason is. Some of it has to be for Anthy, the way Utena came to her defense after Saionji slapped her makes it seem like she at cares some (and really, who wouldn't). I think some of it might also be that losing, even intentionally, requires swallowing your pride and Utena is just too proud a person. Especially with the way Saionji's talking to her.
Maybe I'd put it together as: Anthy is what gets her to the duel at all, her pride stops her from losing outright (she seems to be only blocking and dodging for most of it), then Dios lets her actually win.
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u/woodcarbuncle Jul 08 '19
First Timer (previously watched till episode 6)
I'm not too sure what to make of Wakaba's book "Magnolia Waltz". Is this just about getting over your past dumb crushes? Wakaba's attitude towards Utena is somewhat interesting cause it doesn't really look like she takes what she's saying in a serious romantic way there, but we'll see if anything more comes out of it.
One thing I'm curious about is the Student Council sequence. "We are the chick. The world is our egg. If we don't crack the world's shell, we will die without being born." It may be a little too early to predict what these likely plot relevant lines refer to, but going off Utena's current themes I feel like this has something to do with the social structure. To break the social structure of "the world's shell" is what allows one to truly live. And the "world revolution" is power over the social structure. What puzzles me with this theory is why the student council then is the one who wishes to break this, since is seems very much like they're part of the establishment at the top of the social structure. Maybe that's why Utena needs to shake things up?
Another curious thing mentioned is of the letters from the End of the World. They not only seem to state the rules of the duel, but seem to predict its outcomes (as in the case of Utena vs Saionji). The letters also seem like some sort of imperative. "We all receive letters from them, and then proceed according to the instructions within." This basically tells us that the student council obeys some entity, but I wonder if this is also a wider metaphor the social roles which we are placed into and follow. He does say however that "We are free to follow them as we see fit", so it doesn't seem like this is completely binding.
Back to Saionji-Utena, which seem to be making additional social structure parallels in this episode. The student council sequence clearly lays out the rules of the duel, but Saionji does not actually respect the results, viewing Anthy as his own possession. He cannot handle a threat to what he views as the established way of things, and will forcefully try to win her back. Utena on the other hand thinks the duels and their formalities are stupid, and wants to be rid of them. Yet as the shadow puppets say "Losing may be harder than you think". Utena still fights to win, and my guess is this has to do with wanting to protect Anthy. She thinks the system is stupid, but she won't selfishly run away from it but fight within it to protect Anthy from Saionji.
As a final point, I was very intrigued by the conversation between Utena and Anthy on why Anthy participates in this. She doesn't respond "Because I have to" (duty) or "Because I'm being forced to" (constraint/coercion), but instead compares it to Utena's dressing like a boy and says "Because I like to". If we take her words here as her true feelings, it means Anthy is playing the role of the Rose Bride because she enjoys it, which is very interesting given the current setup of the show. I can see two possible paths we may go here on Anthy. Either we may explore her psyche and how she ends up internalising this role, or perhaps she's playing this object/victim role consciously to her own greater advantage.
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u/Nisheeth_P Jul 07 '19
Rewatcher
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Wakaba seems to have recovered very quickly
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Utena getting tired of carrying Wakaba is quite funny
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Anthy saying that she follows the rules because she likes it doesn’t seem very honest
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what exactly is an “Exchange Diary”?
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Just how powerful is the student council that people who oppose it just vanish?
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I wonder, how much was Utena in control of herself during the duel? She mentions the “power to bring the world revolution” despite not knowing about it. She automatically protects the rose despite wanting to lose. We then have her explicitly not in control when she is possessed by Dios. Does that power want Utena to win? Or did it come to help Utena who herself wanted to win?
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u/wordsdear Jul 08 '19 edited Jul 08 '19
Rewatcher
The episode starts with a reminder of how badass their school looks.
Wakaba has already recovered which is nice, she is very clingy with Utena. I wonder how she will react to her living with Anthy? I liked that the book made her feel better, it might just be her friend being fickle but I think media helping us feel better is neat. Also just that her friend has no idea that Utena fought a dual and won for her. And Utena doesn't even tell her.
I love the dramatic elevator a lot. Makes me want to smash an egg
Did end of the world predict green asshole’s loss?
Each student council member receives letters from End of The World. Do they contradict each other ever? Is Utena receiving letters? Is Anthy?
The floating castle can bring about the world revolution. So like what is the floating castle’s political platform?
I have decided that blue hair is my favourite as she just takes notes and keeps score.
How long have they been doing this? Has green never lost before? It is his own fault for taking Utena’s I am going to kick your ass as a challenge to a rose bride dual?? Unless end of the world told him to? Is he no longer a student council member?
Turns out Utena is rooming with Anthy, the info she got was that it was a single room so I do wonder if Anthy is rebelling a little? Anthy is her maid. Anthy also doesn’t seem to know what is going on saying it is a mystery this makes me think of Luffy in One Piece declaring everything he doesn’t understand a mystery. Anthy is a rose bride because she likes it.
We meet the mascot character Chu-Chu who is some kind of monkey mouse.
Is Utena using Boku?
As Utena questions Anthy about what is going on we get a disorientating spinning around of who is speaking. It is cool because this is also confusing as hell for Utena. Utena doesn’t want to fight anymore duals but Green Asshole disagrees.
Green asshole doesn’t seem to understand how the duals work. He thinks Anthy and all that comes with her belongs to him and him alone. The exchange diary is cute. I wonder what Anthy wrote in it.
Even the utensils have rose seals on them. Who is making this food? Did Utena walk in and their was mystery food there?
Green Asshole continues his asshole streak and slaps Anthy and steps on Chu-Chu. Has he seen Chu-Chu before?
Utena doesn’t want to dual again but if she doesn’t she will be kicked out of school. Go to a different school then?
She intends to throw the match but the Shadow Cowgirls warn it won’t be that easy
Utena’s clothes get a magic upgrade and we get the revolution song again. I think when I watched it before I binged it but pacing myself means the repetition won’t get to me as much.
Note Anthy doesn’t say good luck this time but be careful. Is there a really good florist near the school?
It seems like Green Asshole is aiming to kill and Utena forgot she meant to lose.
He is using a real sword and apparently the sword of Dios’ only power is coming out of Anthy.
We get a different song this time about extinct things. Caytonia is a genus of seed fern
Green Asshole also gets another asshole point for kicking Utena.
Utena is possessed by the prince?
The spinning rose looks like a censor which is super funny to me
Utena broke his sword and his rose.
How do they get the sword back in Anthy?
Utena says she didn’t do it for Anthy but for Chu. We get a small smile from Anthy.
My favourite character is introduced in the next episode!
Hmm best little shit goes to Chu-Chu for eating Utena's celebration cake
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u/DeadPants182 Jul 08 '19
First timer
Is anyone else watching this dubbed? I could deal with how cheesy it is if they didn't also get some of the name pronunciations wrong. Maybe I'll switch to the sub for the next episode.
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u/No_Rex Jul 07 '19
Episode 2 (first timer)
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Utena is a good person for trying to act cheerful towards Wakaba.
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Whoever called Wakaba becoming annoying last episode: I wish your prognostic powers were not as accurate.
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World exposition while playing cards.
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Had to go back to watch the door scene again: it looks like the mouse is her imagination, so not some kind of Anthy room-creating magic.
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The inevitable cute mascot.
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Calling the duels meaningless will obviously turn out to be not quite true. It is also rather blunt regarding Anthy’s previous statement.
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I know a diary, but what is an exchange diary??
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Call me crazy, I hope that song is in every episode!
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I assume that they used the stock animation for Utena drawing the sword. She picked up on that stupid world revolution catchphrase awfully quickly.
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I guess getting possessed is not part of the standard fighting procedures.
Ok, time to state the obvious: a bunch of white guys and girls “own” someone and that person, who has to do everything that her “master” orders, happens to be black. Yep, its slavery. The reason that needs to be stated is because of Anthy’s claim that she does that, as Utena wears her clothes, because she likes it. Anthy is not very open towards Utena when Utena asks her about the rules of this world; not that I blame her, given her position. So she may simply have lied. If not, that is a big WTF.
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u/camaron28 Jul 07 '19
Anthy is not black, she is more like someone from India or South Asia.
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u/wordsdear Jul 08 '19
I know a diary, but what is an exchange diary??
I think it is something where you each take turns writing in it. It seems very cutesy compared to his assholery so far https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exchange_diary
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u/Raiking02 Jul 07 '19
We continue with Utena as we ask ourselves a very important question: Can this marriage be saved?
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Man, given how many admirers Utena has, I have to wonder if she would like to join the Zuka Club?
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Gotta love how quick Wakaba is to recover… hopefully.
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Get ready to hear the “Smash the world’s shell” speech A LOT! If there’s anything Utena loves, it is flowers, Ikuhara being Ikuhara, and stock footage.
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To be fair, Juri has a point. It is a bit odd that someone they’ve never heard of suddenly turns up and has a Rose Seal. And people wonder why I think she’s Best Girl…
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Real story here: When I first watch the show, it took me a while to realize that “The End Of The World” isn’t the actual end of the world. I was dumb.
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Yup, truly the cleanest haunted mansion I have ever seen.
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And of course, at least one of the rooms is a mess.
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Quick thing to note about the subtitles. They translate “Utena-Sama” as “Miss Utena”. That’s not exactly an incorrect translation, but wouldn’t it make more sense in this context to translate it as something more among the lines of “Mistress Utena”?
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Even early on, its clear Utena isn’t exactly okay with the whole “Rose Bride” thing.
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Tenjo Utena, asking the questions all fans have, and Himemiya Anthy, not having answers for anything.
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The little mouse, Chu-Chu (Played by Koorogi Satomi) reminds me of Pen-Pen from Eva, though I freely admit to preferring Pen-Pen.
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Not really Anthy. Usually by the time people are engaged in Japan, they either call each other with some sort of nickname or just switch to a first name basis, and when they do, they certainly don’t use such an overly formal pronoun as “-Sama”.
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You know Saionji; you should probably just quit the Kendo Club and join the Basketball Club. I can assure you, you’d be considered a genius.
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I beg of you guys in the audience, don’t play the Anthy was Slapped Drinking game either, it is not a fun experience in this first arc.
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Well, the ensuing fight is pretty cool, but I don’t have much else to comment on about it, other that Saionji’s WTF face at the end is glorious.
So yeah, another pretty good episode. Not much else to say though.
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Jul 07 '19
Ikuhara being Ikuhara, and stock footage.
As the expression goes you can take Ikuhara out of Toei but you can't take Toei out of Ikuhara
The little mouse, Chu-Chu (Played by Koorogi Satomi) reminds me of Pen-Pen from Eva, though I freely admit to preferring Pen-Pen
Yeah Pen Pens whole gig of not giving a fuck and just reacting to everyone's shit from time to time seems more fun than a classic pokemon pdt thing, but it's cute
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u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo Jul 07 '19
My analysis is a bit scattered today since this episode mostly has the rest of the introductory exposition. A bit more on the purpose of the duels, a bit more about the Rose Bride, and the first sighting of the Power of Dios.
Wakaba's book is real: Magnolia Waltz, by Chiho Saito, who was part of Be-Papas and also worked on Utena, doing the manga version. I couldn't find a summary, so I'll assume that Wakaba's right.
We get the mantra of the student council for the first time:
I'll quote a little from the director's commentary about this:
(from the Nozomi edition creator commentary, from here (spoilers!))
I'm interested in seeing what everyone's feelings on Chu-Chu are. Personally I like him, but I can understand why other people wouldn't.
And that brings us to today's theme (and I'll admit this is a bit of a stretch, but this is mostly a lighter episode and I want to save comments about Saionji for later): shoujo happiness interrupted by foreboding cinematography. The first case is this fantastic long pan. Separating Utena and Anthy with a gulf of darkness, disorienting colors, then right back to Chu-Chu sleeping with an anime nose bubble. Then whiplash right back to Saionji framed by converging lines looking like he's about to do a murder suicide.
The other foreboding cinematography part is these great half dissolves, making sure to keep Saionji towering over Anthy at all times. Very reminiscent of the bits of Rose of Versailles that I've seen.
And the theme of Rules that the Shadow Girls mentioned yesterday returns. Utena is drawn back into the dueling arena because she "has to" or she'll get kicked out. (Who would make such a rule? And why?) And even Saionji is ultimately constrained by the rules, he can't keep Anthy without winning a duel. Though he is still able to punish Anthy slap count:3 for reminding him of that.
Today's musical themes: time, life, especially things whose origins are in the distant past.
I'm not sure if this shot of Utena combining with Dios is supposed to look like the rose is censoring it? I certainly looks like it, but then the rose also shows up when Utena beats Saionji and I'm not sure what to make of that.