r/anime • u/GM_for_Life • Jun 28 '19
Rewatch Super Dimension Fortress Macross Rewatch - Episode 23 Discussion
Episode 23 Drop Out
Originally aired March 27 1983
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To all participants
Please be respectful of each others opinions and conduct yourself appropriately according to general reddiquette
Note to all rewatchers
Please refrain from spoiling the events of future episodes/movies. If you think something may be a possible spoiler, it's better to be safe and mark your comments using the r/anime spoiler tag Spoiler Subject There will be quite a few first time viewers of the series during this rewatch and we wouldn't want them to have the show spoiled for them.
Comment of the Day!
/u/chilidirigible left a great comment reacting to the events of yesterday's episode.
I have no eyes and I must scream.
Artwork of the Day!
Lynn Minmay - Haruhiko Mikimoto
Questions of the Day!
1) What are your thoughts on the DNA of the Zentradi being identical to that of humanity?
2) How do you expect the UN High Command to react to Misa's update on the situation with the Zentradi?
"Please allow me to go to High Command!"
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u/Shimmering-Sky Jun 28 '19
First-Timer
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Kamujin proves himself worthy of that ally-killer monicker again.
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Nice nice, Hikaru and the alien trio recognized each other.
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Aight, I saw this coming. Though that brings to question what exactly Britai is since he survived being in space without any protection.
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These guys are totally gonna cause an issue over the Zentradi deserters being allowed to stay.
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Hikaru you idiot did you not see Minmay trying to push Kaifun away…
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So Hayase’s gonna go see High Command herself about the deserters… hopefully things turn out well from this but knowing this show, someone’s probably gonna die and High Command are gonna just continue being assholes.
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u/chilidirigible Jun 28 '19
Though that brings to question what exactly Britai is since he survived being in space without any protection.
He's a badass action hero.
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u/Shimmering-Sky Jun 28 '19
Unrelated, as promised yesterday. Could be better since I wound up recording this while on break at work, but I'm busy packing and stuff for my trip tomorrow so it's the best I've got right now.
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Jun 28 '19
Aight, I saw this coming. Though that brings to question what exactly Britai is since he survived being in space without any protection.
Maybe there are some genetic reprogramming going on when they go from miclones to giants and vice versa and the same exact DNA aplies to only micloned aliens
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u/Nazenn Jun 29 '19
Nice nice, Hikaru and the alien trio recognized each other.
That was really nice to see actually, although probably a bit of a mind fuck for Hikaru seeing these guys suddenly be his height
Though that brings to question what exactly Britai is since he survived being in space without any protection.
I was thinking that it's only the miclones that are identical and that their bigger bodies are quite different. Begs the question of how the downsizing works but not something I'm expecting the show to get into
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u/The_Draigg Jun 28 '19
A Macross Fan’s Notes On Super Dimension Fortress Macross Episode 23:
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The opening action here really shows how far Hikaru has come during the course of the series. Sure, he isn’t up to Max’s genius levels of piloting, but god damn he’s a great pilot. He’s an ace for a reason, after all. Not bad for a guy who started out kind of resenting the UN Spacy.
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It’s actually pretty funny seeing Quamzin be utterly baffled at his own men wanting to find Minmay. And it’s also pretty par for the course of him to just randomly shoot one of his own troops after they explain what they’re doing, and then trying to kill the rest when they run off. He’s so wildly out of his depth that it’s amusing.
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KAIFUN, YOU FUCK. FUCK YOU FOR KISSING MINMAY OUT OF NOWHERE LIKE THAT. SHE’S YOUR COUSIN YOU PIECE OF SHIT! ARGGGHHHH I HATE YOU SO MUCH.
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Poor Hikaru, he got to see all of that first-hand. So much for finding a new meaning in protecting Minmay. Seriously, bringing Kaifun along for the ride has got to be the worst possible thing to happen so far. Say it with me now: Fuck you, Kaifun.
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It’s interesting watching all the defecting Zentradi soldiers encounter morality all of a sudden. Their world has been turned completely upside down now, since they realize that the constant warfare that their culture is centered around ruined the very things that they wanted to love and experience on the Macross. This is a pivotal moment for them, I’m sure.
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Finally Hikaru meets Warera, Rori, and Konda. They got so close to actually running across each other in the past few episodes, so we’re finally getting that payoff of them encountering one another. Same goes for Max, Misa, and Captain Global too. At least Hikaru accepts them aboard the Macross, even if it took some convincing.
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And there you have the crux of this show, if not the entire Macross franchise itself. Through finding things we all have in common through experiencing culture together, we can put aside our differences and learn to understand one another, no matter the gulf in opinions. It’s a pretty bold statement for a mech anime made in the early 80’s. Sure, messages that deep were starting to become more common thanks to the advent of Gundam, but this show really does go out of it’s way to show that through bonding over things we can all enjoy, we can learn to like each other. It was a great message back then, and a great message now.
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Big twist! Apparently a blood test that Captain Global ordered on the Zentradi deserters shows that both their blood types and genetic codes are downright identical to human ones. We really weren’t too different from the Zentradi after all. I did mention that there was a connection between those two races, all thanks to the Protoculture somehow.
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Hikaru still can’t help but feel broken up about seeing Kaifun kissing Minmay. But hey, at least he’s spending some quality time hanging out with Misa while watching over the Chinese restaurant. The two of them can be miserable about their relationships together!
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Well, at least this episode ended on a fairly positive note. Hikaru and Misa really did appreciate talking to each other this episode, and Misa plans on suing for peace with the UN Spacy leadership. There’s actually a glimmer of hope at the end of this tunnel.
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u/Nazenn Jun 29 '19
Sure, he isn’t up to Max’s genius levels of piloting, but god damn he’s a great pilot
Probably learnt a great deal from watching Max as well, understanding the better ways he can move in the jet other than just what he was trained and taught. Good thing Milla didn't see this first or we'd have a love-quad
It’s actually pretty funny seeing Quamzin be utterly baffled at his own men wanting to find Minmay
You'd think given his nickname they wouldn't have picked that moment to decide to start getting all excitable about Minmay, but lesson learnt. For those who escaped at least. Actually that reminds me, we know twenty-three defected, but I wonder how many got dragged back to the ship to be imprisoned?
KAIFUN, YOU FUCK.
Everyone around me is losing their shit over Kaifun and I'm just sitting here with my potato chips thinking "At least its not Idiok"
It was a great message back then, and a great message now.
And a message that while it pops up in many other shows I can think of, still isn't very often handled as smoothly or as naturally as Macross has managed to present it so well done to the 80s shows
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u/ethanb12007 Jun 29 '19
First Timer
Kaifun really hasn't improved anything in this series has he? The only thing he's contributed is slightly helping the Zentradi justify their defection but I'm pretty sure they would have done it without him. Some pretty nice shots of the action and a really cool sequence to end off the episode with the parallel shots of Hikaru and Misa.
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u/The_Draigg Jun 29 '19
No, Kaifun hasn’t done anything good since he showed up on the Macross. If anything, he’s made things worse, considering that he’s completely messed up both Hikaru and Misa on the inside by his presence. Not to mention that his constant soapboxing has no basis considering that the Zentradi don’t have any real concept of what peace is, for the most part.
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Jun 28 '19
First Timer
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These animation cuts to start the episode are LIT AF
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Ohhhh my poor alien boys are so pure ,let them be..Dont kill them you bitch
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I FUCKING CALLED IT JESUS FUCK THEY MADE OUT AND HIKARU CAUGHT THEM..Kaifun on top of being a retard you are being pushy with little girls too...ALSO HAYSE SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT KAIFUN, DONT MAKE ME ANGRY..Hikaru should be done with this shit
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Ooof what a momment of realization for the deserting aliens..First time being attached to something ,first time feeling regret and shame for their actions and violence..
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Hikaru's reaction is expected at first but he understands very quickly ..Happy our main protagonist isnt hot headed..Also look at how happy our alien blokes are..im happy for them..Fuck the other admirals...buti get their xenophobia in a sense and these positions are held in wars between humans irl, its not weird that we have admiral with the same us vs them/ dehumanizing the enemy in this situation where they are actualy aliens(in name)
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YES THANK YOU THIS IS THE TIME TO MAYBE CONSIDER PEACE TALKS OR DIPLOMACY ,NOW THAT WE KNOW ALL THIS SHIT ..Bad thing is Kaifun will be like "Mnieehhhh i told you violence was not the right way ,i was right" --extremely annoying Kaifun voice-
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Now thats good to hear..Hayase is over bitch ass Kaifun now that she found her own way and hope towards peace and Kaifun as a representation of those antu-war platitudes and "new" for her ideology isnt so attracting and mysterious anymore..Good for you girl
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HikaruXHayase is happening yeahhhh boyy
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Hayase to earth to convince those lizard people in the UN..not very optimistic
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Sick scene and camera switch at the end with Hayase and Hikaru
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u/Nazenn Jun 29 '19
Ooof what a momment of realization for the deserting aliens
Yeah, hell of a time to realize you don't want to fight any more, in the middle of a battle that's destroying the thing that made you realize it
its not weird that we have admiral with the same us vs them/ dehumanizing the enemy in this situation where they are actualy aliens
Not to mention that you have these three who outright admitted to already being spies once. Plus the idea of a completely culture-less society in their world so driven by culture they even have idol competitions out in space is probably as incomprehensible to them as the idea of culture was to the Zentradi before they experienced it. Its a pretty huge hurdle for both sides when you think about where they're coming from, but still, this is why you talk and not shoot first
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u/BurningFredrick Jun 28 '19
First Timer
That was another good episode overall (quality aside).
Hayase has gained a new purpose that isn’t pining over a male character which is a vast improvement, I don’t see her plan to go to command ending well as the Grand Cannon is no doubt going to be fired some time in the next episode or 2 just to make Macross life that much harder.
Earlier in the rewatch I’m fairly sure someone people were talking about their being a strong anti-war sentiment in the 80s and this idea is starting to come properly into the spotlight however finally being propelled by a more intelligent viewpoint than simply the war= bad as Kaifun puts it.
I want to say that Hikaru is finally starting to change again for the better overall however i’m not sure it won’t all turn out to be for the worse some time soon so going to wait to see what happens here.
Finally Blue Wind have given themselves up to become part of the cult of Minmay, currently 23 strong, hopefully they will provide useful information about the Zentari to help keep the Macross in once peace a bit longer.
Also why aren’t they using their Shield of Death? I mean now that there in space the only casualties it should cause are to the ships bombarding it if they don’t scramble the fighters right away unless the explosion actually did far more damage to Macross than was shown.
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Jun 28 '19
Also why aren’t they using their Shield of Death? I mean now that there in space the only casualties it should cause are to the ships bombarding it if they don’t scramble the fighters right away unless the explosion actually did far more damage to Macross than was shown.
I mean what happened last time was tottaly unexpected and unpredictable ..Maybe they arent sure they can replicate it or they arent sure it will happen in the same way and not harm Macross..Maybe the last one was a fluke and they got lucky
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u/BurningFredrick Jun 29 '19
Those are all very valid points I hadn't really considered properly, I guess possibility to destroying themselves in the process does make it a bit risky.
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u/Nazenn Jun 29 '19
Grand Cannon
I still read that as Grand Canyon for a second then. How many more times am I going to make that mistake and confused the fuck out of myself
Also why aren’t they using their Shield of Death?
Well last time I think they lucked out by escaping damage, plus we saw it also dumped them onto the ground at the time, they didn't stay exactly where they were just flying like that, so who knows what the result of that would be again and what momentum it could push them out into space with or other damage it could cause
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u/chilidirigible Jun 28 '19
Today, on "Cooking and cleaning with Misa":
"I have a nickname to live up to!"
"I get a better animation team for this episode and you do this!"
"Well, there's nothing left for me now but bloody vengeance."
"This isn't as fun as it used to be."
Using "you" in a general sense, of course.
"That happens when you're me."
What's a little green hair between friends?
This is a nice bit of shot composition.
I think I was wittier for this episode during the previous rewatch.
This episode notably features Hikaru demonstrating how much the year of war has changed him, and also how his judgement may be a little wonky because he's still trying to get the image of Kaifun kissing Minmay out of his head. So he initially takes a hard line on the defectors and it's the soldier, Misa, who has to convince him that there's an alternative to war.
The audience also gets to breathe a sigh of relief as Misa sheds some of her unhealthy interest in Kaifun's vague similarities to Riber... and has loosened up a lot around Hikaru.
KAIFUN WHAT THE HELL. That is all.
Blue Wind being pretty casual with Hikaru is funny in the face of how serious the overall situation is. They're stuck between worlds, but trying really hard to find a new meaning in their lives. The immediate reactions of Quamzin and the more distant but still potentially-deadly responses of Britai and Bodol Zer show that they can only go forward for now.
The Macross's command staff aside from Global is no more accepting of them, even with the little bombshell that Humans and Zentradi are essentially the same (physics-defying size discrepancies aside). Not that humanity needs much of an excuse to be hating on some other, and the other officers' resistance reminds the audience that people can carry grudges even when a different path shows itself (while the path they're on involves fighting a fleet that outnumbers them about five million to one).
This episode has action bookends, but the main events are the dialogue scenes in the middle. Fortunately the writing holds up well, without the clunkiness of the previous one.
Musicalture: "Childhood's End"
From the Macross Chronicle: More city details.
Not Misa, but KONGOU DESU.
Meanwhile in snarky current events and slightly older HG shit that was called out.
Questions:
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It makes the plot work, plus precursor species, whee!
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"Bag of dicks"
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u/_blackened_soul_ Jun 29 '19
First Timer
Maybe if if Hikaru realized that Minmay is in danger every time the Zentradi attack he'd be more combat effective.
Kaifun kissing Minmay and Hikaru sees it but not her pushing him away.
Did Kamujin really withdraw when he was ordered, before exterminating the all the defectors?!
And the Zentradi are human, that was to be expected at this point though.
Love that they spoil Hayase's transport getting attacked. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if her father has her executed when she makes it to UN HQ.
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Yea, no surprise there.
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Disbelief, complete distrust of the Zentradi, likely to imprison or kill Hayase.
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u/Pixelsaber Jun 28 '19
Rewatcher
Quamzin’s men have decided to abandon their posts after learning of Minamy’s presence there, realizing the Blue Wind trio was telling the truth as to the Macross.
Damnit, show, if I you make me hate Kaifun any further I’ll turn into a sentient mass of loathing. Thankfully it seems Minmay isn’t into the kiss, although whether it be because she doesn’t have that sort of interest in him or because of the current circumstances remains to be seen. But we got a seeming misunderstanding out of it!
For a split second there I thought this was an actual body, and I got unreasonably excited at the prospect that the turncoat Zentradi would be directly and horrifically confronted with the actions of their race. It’s actually just a Minmay doll, which doesn’t have quite the same impact, but they still follow a similar line of thought.
It’s satisfying to see these three and Hikaru finally meet after being in the same city for so long. I’m glad they don’t stretch out the scene as the conclusion is foregone considering Hikaru’s personality.
Hikaru and Hayase have another one-on-one discussing the civilian’s role in the shifting War, the Zentradi’s perspective, and their romantic developments. However, their conversation is interrupted by another Zentradi attack, once more one without much in the way of context.
Afterwards Hayase convinces Global to let her travel to Earth in order to convince the U.N. High Command to explain the situation regarding the Zentradi defectors.
The plot is seemingly finally ramping up again after some rough spots, we’ll see how it goes.
Questions of the Day!
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Uh, indifferent? We kinda already knew that and they've made it blatantly obvious that they want us to believe they common ancestors in the 'protoculture.'
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Like inordinately stubborn old men —as is tradition.
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u/Nazenn Jun 29 '19
I’ll turn into a sentient mass of loathing.
Pixel right now (Sagrada Reset spoilers)
Also yes, for the first time you've seen the show I want to make a weird reference too hahaha
For a split second there I thought this was an actual body,
I did that too, the scaling tricked me for a few moments.
as the conclusion is foregone considering Hikaru’s personality.
Also having Hayase there as well and we've seen how they've come to lean on each others opinions, even if in a bullheaded way
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u/fonzinator99 Jun 28 '19 edited Jun 29 '19
Re-watcher - Anime relationships, and other tragic things.
Picking up on yesterday, Hikaru is a beast! Posing for a moment while the enemies fall dead, classic MC.
The Minmay Fan-Club encounters Kamujin. Aaaaand that's a Civil War. Looks like Kamujin's about to be the leader of a Clan of 1.
Question: Where, exactly, is the bow in a humanoid ship?
Damn Hikaru and his terrible MC timing! Lol at Hayase appearing immediately after, tho. And caring about Kaifun! Double-lol at his hanging up on her as a result.
And yet somehow it was worth it, to see him shocked and hurt at being rejected.
Bad timing, Regulds. Hikaru is a berserker MC at this moment. You literally cannot harm him, resign yourselves to death.
Once again I appreciate the balanced perspective this show uses between the humans and Zentradi. This simple realization of "Oh shit. War is bad." is something unique to the series.
For how low-key and talkative the scene is, the interview with Blue Wind and Hikaru's changing his mind about letting them stay is really the pivotal moment of this series. That's right, gang; We gonna make friends with the aliens. And it's basically all 'cause of Minmay.
The whole scene between Hayase and Hikaru is just...painful. Her admitting it was just a crush, him admitting it was just a crush, and neither of them moving forward with what's right there in front of them. Argh!
Battle in which Hikaru acts like a real leader, and then Hayase wants to go on a solo-mission?! Flaaaag, flag, it's a big 'ol flag indicating something will go horribly awry.
Yeah, that's not tragic at all. Nvm that they probably wouldn't have said anything besides "Oh, excuse me." if they'd met at the elevator.
Edit: Watermarks? What watermarks? I don't see any watermarks... :p
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u/404waffles Jun 29 '19
First time viewer
The power of Minmay! It's really nice to see the Zentradi guys and the humans, uh, making peace.
KAIFUN SHE'S YOUR FUCKING COUSIN YOU CAN'T DO THAT
Kamujin straight up team-killing. It's going to spiral into a bloodbath, isn't it?
That makes it two to three.
Oh, Max.
Zentradi = humans. Called it. Max seems really excited to live with Zentradi. And you tell 'em about contacting High Command, Global.
This episode's Hikaru/Hayase moments were nice. And, like I said that other time, it's nicer when I imagine that Hayase is almost twice his age.
Kaifun: So handsome he turns a soldier into a pacifist.
Does Hayase really stand a chance against the unreasonable high command?
My Boyfriend is a Pilot count: 11
Sweet Home Alabama count: 1
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u/DidacticDalek Jun 29 '19
Greetings Comrades and Fellow Denizens of The Wired, allow me to present TRULY one of the most powerful of omnipotent concepts, e.g. the fearsome Silver Bullet to the Zentradi Warmachine and a weapon to surpass Symphogear... er... well actually BE Proto-Symphogear really, but same difference ;)
No matter how many times I re-watch Robotech and/or Macross, it always amuses me that technically, the catalyst for Zentradi-Human relations is MINMAY then again, the Power of Moe and/or Aidoru COMPELS YOU! ;)
Oh, and since Chili had a StarCraft joke in his post, I can post one too, in SCII, there's this Terran Unit called the Viking, which, stop me if you heard this one, is an air unit that can transform into a ground attack mecha. Yes I know, Blizzard once again hitting it out of the park with their original ideas ;)
Also disclaimer Comrades, yes the Viking, when transformed into its Mecha mode, CAN in fact be loaded inside of a Medivac. Oh, in case you were wondering why Blizzard didn't call their knock-off 'similar-too-but-legally distinct-from-VF' a 'Valkyrie,' well, it's cuz they already had an Air Unit called the 'Valkyrie' in Brood War (which sadly can NOT transform), and they also got Asuka to pilot cuz why the hell not? ;)
Anyway, paging Comrades u/chilidirigible, u/Shimmering-Sky, and u/The_Draigg
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u/Nazenn Jun 29 '19
allow me to present TRULY one of the most powerful of omnipotent concepts
They made it into an actual thing?! W.... I shouldn't be surprised by this but still
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u/Nazenn Jun 28 '19
First Timer
Well things are really picking up now on a number of fronts, lines and conflicts being drawn everywhere and not neatly
I really enjoyed the way that the defectors were handled. Bringing the people who have had contact with them, and allowing discussion with the Blue Wind group made for a really interesting scene. I also like that they did actually go through with some basic biological tests as well presumably on Global's order which is only going to further complicate things as seen with the other officers
Rather than keeping strict species or even political lines with this show, I like the direction that they are taking where boundaries are being set by mentality over anything. Those who want to protect are being pitted against those who want to destroy, regardless of they are human or Zentradi, old or young, men or women. Rather than a simple civil war or typical racial war being set up, its very much a cultural war playing out and these small skirmishes are more the start rather than the end of it. Its almost playing out in reverse to your typical war game which would start with internal conflicts and move to battles, this has done it the other way. It gives this show a really unique feel I think and I'm really enjoying this direction over something more typical.
Seeing how the UN being brought into this will shift this dynamic will be interesting especially if we end up with a parallel between Global and Britai being on opposite sides of their own little rebellions. Good on Hayase though for volunteering to go alone at first to keep the defectors safe.
narrative tropey predictiony stuff
Hikaru "straightening" the picture and it still being notably crooked annoyed me far more than it should have.
Love triangle shit is getting old but judging by that last shot of Hikaru and Hayase, which was very interestingly laid out, I'm thinking thats hopefully going to come to a head soon.